Five Color Chalice decks

[94teen]

I've been doing some brainstorming recently, and started wondering why there aren't five color chalice aggro and stax decks at least being discussed? Most of the cards played in these decks are fairly splashable, so it shouldn't be terribly difficult to take all the "best" cards from each color and throw together a manabase that enables you to cast all of them.

Wasteland is a problem, sure, but at least one of the archetypes runs Crucible of Worlds to mitigate that problem. Most of chalice aggro's creatures are pretty splashable anyway, and if you just play the biggest, baddest creatures and equipment, you might be able to get away without playing disruption and using the extra slots for more creatures.


I don't have a list at the moment, but let's take a look at the stax archetype for an example, and what each color has to offer it.

White
Armageddon/Ravages of War
Magus of the Tabernacle
Ghostly Prison
Oblivion Ring
Suppression Field
Nomad Stadium
Horizon Canopy

Blue
Meditate
Thirst for Knowledge
Intuition
Pendrell Mists
Propaganda
In the Eye of Chaos
Academy Ruins
Cephalid Coliseum
Standstill

Green
Garruk Wildspeaker
Words of Wilding
Sylvan Library
Root Maze
Crop Rotation
Exploration

Black
Nether Void
The Abyss
Braids, Cabal Minion
Damnation
Chains of Mephistopheles
Cabal Pit
Bitterblossom

Red
Burning Wish
Rolling Earthquake
Wildfire/Burning of Xinye
Goblin Welder
Barbarian Ring

It seems to me that a deck with some combination of Burning Wish, Intuition and lock pieces could be really good, because burning wish and intuition get around the problem that Stax decks have with not being able to draw/tutor for cards. They enable you to get exactly what you want, or have a land/artifact toolbox in the main deck (at risk of turning this into eternal garden).

A similar list could be made for chalice aggro that'd include the best beaters. Sea Drake, Efreet, Gathan Raiders, Tarmogoyf, Mirror Entity, etc.

Does a five color Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors deck have a chance of being competitive in this format, or is the vulnerability to wasteland too much? It seems like this could work out.

A list off the top of my head for 5c Stax:
25 Lands, 4 Mox Diamond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
2 City of Brass
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Barbarian Ring

2 Intuition
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Propaganda
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Root Maze
2 The Abyss
2 Nether Void

Sideboard would probably be something along the lines of:
Damnation/Wrath - for aggro
In the Eye of Chaos - seems like it'd make landstill and threshold better.
Pithing Needle - for Deed and EE
Nether Void - for control matchups
other stuff.

[tsabo_tavoc]

Good thoughts, however:
1. It seems that only Intuition worth the splashing for white Stax.
2. You lose Flagstones, consequently many basic synergies.
3. Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide and Elvish Spirit Guide will become less playable in Stompy decks.
4. Good creatures are consistently printed, making monocolored Stompy decks more and more optimal.

[ParkerLewis]

I've been doing some brainstorming recently, and started wondering why there aren't five color chalice aggro and stax decks at least being discussed?

Running Chalice makes you run ~8 non-colored mana sources.

There are now three choices :

A) The deck will be running ~24-26 lands total and have a stable, not auto-losing to itself and/or first sign of mana denial, manabase (ie runs basic, but also lots of fetches and a good large deal of duals). Now, the deck will suck because it will always be clogged with tons of redundant lands.

B) The deck will be running ~20-23 lands total and have consistent access to all its colors via tons of fetches and duals (ie doesn't run any basics). Now, the deck will suck because it will auto-lose to the slightest piece of mana denial.

C) The deck will be running ~20-23 lands total and have a manabase that has a bit of resiliency against non-basic hate (ie runs some basics). Now, the deck will suck because it will be constantly color-screwed.

Wait, I'm seeing you're also running Wasteland ?

[Valtrix]

@tsabo: If you actually read the thread and decklist, you would see that this is not a stompy deck at all, but rather a stax deck.

I'd take out rootmaze right away: it hurts you and does almost nothing for the game. Plus, it's antisynergy with chalice. There's better things to run.

I'd up the intuition and cut the crucible. An extra crucible is not always useful, but intuition is. Maybe replace it with a burning wish toolbox, or propaganda, tangle wire, etc.

One thing that is nice about mono-colored stax decks is their consistency. 5 color could have potential strenghts, but you're going to have a lot of mana issues, so it might not be worth it in the end. I really like the black in there, as they're killer. Green doesn't seem to have a ton to offer unless you go for like burning wish with LftL in the board, but that might be too much to ask. I like the red recursion with barbarian ring, that's pretty cool. However, it is a bit slow. I wish exploration was 2cc so that it wouldn't interfere with chalice@1 =/

[94teen]

@tsabo: If you actually read the thread and decklist, you would see that this is not a stompy deck at all, but rather a stax deck.

I'd take out rootmaze right away: it hurts you and does almost nothing for the game. Plus, it's antisynergy with chalice. There's better things to run.

I'd up the intuition and cut the crucible. An extra crucible is not always useful, but intuition is. Maybe replace it with a burning wish toolbox, or propaganda, tangle wire, etc.

One thing that is nice about mono-colored stax decks is their consistency. 5 color could have potential strenghts, but you're going to have a lot of mana issues, so it might not be worth it in the end. I really like the black in there, as they're killer. Green doesn't seem to have a ton to offer unless you go for like burning wish with LftL in the board, but that might be too much to ask. I like the red recursion with barbarian ring, that's pretty cool. However, it is a bit slow. I wish exploration was 2cc so that it wouldn't interfere with chalice@1 =/

I don't have a lot of time to post my thoughts on your comments at the moment, but I would like to point out that I also mentioned chalice stompy decks. I just didn't discuss them because I don't believe myself to be experienced enough with them, and I didn't have enough time to brainstorm two lists.

I'm interested in discussing the potential for both stax and stompy decks, because while one may not be possible, the other might end up being really good.

EDIT:

I agree with cutting green from the maindeck, that was kinda just there to demonstrate the possibilities.

Also, I addressed the wasteland issue in my first post. It's more of a problem for stompy decks, but stax decks have crucible recursion. If they're taking the time to waste your lands you've got more time before they start doing relevant things. Time to drop crucible, trinisphere, etc. In my experience, non-magus nonbasic hate is irrelevant against stax most of the time, and if they're taking the time to try to play that game, you can lock them out before they start playing threats.

[FoolofaTook]

Chalice decks mostly make their living off of locking down decks early on and exploiting the interval where the opponent can't do a lot because Chalice@1 has locked out their cantrips, disruption and removal.

If you go 5c with them then you create uncertainty in your own early game and probably negate some of the advantage that your primary strategy is trying to create.

[Nihil Credo]

Junk Pile. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7906)

[Jak]

Junk Pile. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7906)

This was my last Junk Pile list. I updated some stuff. Makes me want to rock it again.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Brass
4 Tarnished Citadel
4 Mox Diamond

4 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Umezawa's Jitte / Nether Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Sea Drake
4 Serndib Efreet
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Mulldrifter
3 Shriekmaw

SB
4 Krosan Grip
3 Armageddon
4 Engineered Plague
4 Faerie Macabre

[Illissius]

For Junk Pile: The two cards that seem worth importing from Elephant Stompy are Spawnwrithe and Choke. I am not sure what combination of Armageddon, Nether Void, and Crucible is correct ("none at all" is a valid combination). Also, I still have a hardon for Phyrexian Negator. Gathan Raiders does not combo well with: Mulldrifter, Sword of Thing and Other Thing, Armageddon, Nether Void.

For 5cStax: It is annoying that the two potentially biggest contributions from black -- Nether Void and The Abyss -- are somewhat mutually exclusive. The Nether Void vs. Armageddon question presents itself again (because you are not reasonably going to be able to cast one after you have cast the other). 8 Ghostly Prisons or no? For the sideboard, do we want Boils or Chokes, Plagues or Clasms, Welders or no?

Also, Engineered Explosives?

[Nihil Credo]

Did you (=both Jak and Illissius) test with Nether Void? It was dropped for a reason: it was much like Standstill in an aggro deck - conditional as hell. You had to keep threat superiority as it resolved, otherwise it would just teleport both players to the mid-late game, which generally sucked for Demon Stompy. I don't see how it should work better for Junk Pile, which is even less explosive due to a lack of Dark Ritual (i.e. no god-draws like T1 Negator+Nether Void).

Also, Raiders get along just fine with Swords in Dragon Stompy: you're almost always able to drop whatever you just drew, with Arc-Slogger being the noteworthy exception. What they don't get along with is Force of Will, or anything that wants to be played at instant speed.

EE looks definitely sexy. A Stompy deck that can actually get rid of Humility? The paranoid in me loves the idea.

[Illissius]

I haven't tested it. Remember, I don't play Magic.

I would assume your criticisms of Nether Void also apply to Armageddon? (If not, what's the difference? As far as I can tell, without a threat out, either one just slows both players down like hell; with one, either one more or less wins the game.)

As for EE, while you can make all five colors of mana, the bottleneck is how many colored mana sources you actually draw. With only 12 in the deck, that's usually going to be around 1-2 in the early turns, though obviously more as the game drags on (minus your dying Mines).

[Mordenkaynen]

If I tried to make non-mono-color stax, I would try to make a room for nether spirit and haunting echoes in W version (most likely with suppresion field and geddon) but it seems to be a bad idea since there is BB in costs of each card metioned.
The stax issue is "has any stax version an inconsistency that can be fixed by adding another color?" Well, it's a question for stax players.
The idea of "let's take all colors in one deck" is quite inconsistent, it can benefit only because of EE and may be 4cc guy with sunburst which draw 3 cards. :laugh: and nephilims, of course.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I recently toyed with this idea and came up with the following list;

5c Stompy x00.03

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mindslicer
3 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Gathan Raiders
4 Exalted Angel
4 Shriekmaw
4 Sea Drake

// Spells
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

I ran the best creature from each color, except black. Sea Drake, Exalted Angel, and Rakdos Pit Dragon can all win the game by their self, I found Tarmogoyf to be lacking. I'd probably turn Tarmogoyf into Spawnwrithe and Mindslicer into something better.

[Nihil Credo]

I would assume your criticisms of Nether Void also apply to Armageddon? (If not, what's the difference? As far as I can tell, without a threat out, either one just slows both players down like hell; with one, either one more or less wins the game.)

Differences between the two of them:

Major: Armageddon is rightfully sideboarded against control and midrange (except in White Stax, where it has synergy with half the deck; but I was talking of Void with regards to Stompy decks). Nether Void is maindecked; it would probably be much better as a SB option against Threshold, combo, Burn, etc., if you wanted to supplement Chalices and Trinispheres.

Minor: Moxes give you an advantage post-Armageddon; conversely, Cities of Traitors make it difficult to build up to the 6+ mana required to operate under Nether Void. Therefore, if you're piloting a Stompy deck and the board is empty, you'd rather resolve an Armageddon than a Nether Void.

Very minor: Nether Void is "legendary".

[Phantom]

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 City of Traitors

4 Mox Diamond



Can you really run Mox Diamond with 18 freaking land??? That sounds like mulligan city and lots of losses to waste, port, and artifact hate.

I've been toying with this concept ever since junk pile came out. Here are my thoughts:

- Tough to get the mana base right. No surprise here, but it should be said.
- Sadly there are a bunch of cards that only work in their particular brand of Chalice Aggro. Rakdos Pit Dragon for one, but ESG/SSG is a big loss too. FoW would be nice without that whole "blue card nonsense".
- Tarmogoyf is good, not great in these types of decks.
- When I started looking at the so called auto includes (if they can so be called) I noticed that a lot of the best creatures had flying and were white/blue (here I'm speaking of Sea Drake, Angel, Mulldrifter, and to a lesser extent, Serendib) and that the best piece of removal was white (O Ring). That got me thinking that multi color Chalice Aggro should be built around Moat, which lead me to test this list:

4 City of T
4 Tomb
4 Gemstone
4 City of B
4 Fetch
4 Tundra

4 Sea Drake
4 Angel
4 Serendib
4 Mulldrifter
4 X

4 Chalice
4 O Ring
4 Mox Diamond
4 Moat

sb:
4 E Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Choke
4 Pithing Needle

I'm still debating the X slot. I tried Force there, but the deck is too creature and blue light for it. I also tried Tygon Predator, which was okish. I might test Tombstalker with a Underground Sea, and see if that's feasable.

Overall, the deck runs too much mana. I get flooded most games, so I'm going to test -2 fetches, -2 duals. I tried to make the deck just UW with duals, but the manabase never worked right with Chrome Mox.

The board is untersted, but the options at my fingertips make my head explode.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Can you really run Mox Diamond with 18 freaking land??? That sounds like mulligan city and lots of losses to waste, port, and artifact hate. You'd think so, what with conventional logic and statistics on your side, but in my testing, I never had a problem with it. I wouldn't trust it in a real tournament, so I'd probably try a 2/2 split between Chrome and Diamond.

Pit Dragon has been ok at best and Mindslicer is the worst threat I run.