Card Discussion - Newer High CC Beaters & Avatars

[Clark Kant]

A number of high cc but quality beaters have been printed as of late.

Everything from Guile to Divinity of Pride, Demigod of Revenge, Ghastlord of Fugue and Godhead of Awe. Despite their high cc, all of them are very efficent and have powerful effects. And I honestly really wanted a thread to discuss all of them and compare their strengths and weaknesses in legacy.

I've been working on a new deck for a day or so designed specifically to test out the viability of Godhead of Awe in legacy.

Godhead of Awe :wu::wu::wu::wu::wu:

Flying
All other creatures are 1/1s

4/4

A humility with a 4/4 flying body that is unaffected by the humility ability is quite strong.

Yes it needs to be protected to be broken, but even if it isn't, it's a 1:1 trade with their countermagic or removal spell.

Humility was a pure control card. Godhead has the same effect on cards like Goyf, but is also a large beater, a five turn clock, and a deterrent for their 1/1s to attack. Plus Godhead is blue and also pitchable to Force, which is very relevent. Unlike humility it doesn't effect creature abilities, but nowadays, the major creatures that are played are...

Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Tombstalker
Dreadnought

It doesn't matter that it doesn't effect their abilities, making them into 1/1s is plenty powerful.

It combos beautifully with Meloku, (Morphling, Shackles and Rainbow Efreet to some extent), Mishra's Factory and a crap load of other very solid cards (Bitterblossom, Fire/Ice, Pyroclasm etc) worth running by themselves.

As 1/1s your opponent can't attack into a 4/4 blocker or the factory. But if you're at the advantage, you can attack with your 4/4 to quickly finish them off.

It is actually very comparable to Exalted Angel, unblockable 4 damage with a very useful ability is better than a flying 4/5 with lifegain imo. The lack of an alternate casting cost sucks. But Angel ate up 7 mana using up all your mana for two full turns for the alternate casting cost, or 6 in one turn. Godhead only use 5 in one turn. Even if you used an Ancient Tomb to help cast the Angel, he ends up using the same number of lands to cast as Godhead.

The deck is still a bit rough around the edges. It definately works well so far but it's early and needs more tweaking, testing, and tuning before we can figure out if Godhead is worth it.

//Mana
23 Island
4 Chrome Mox

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics
2 Veldalken Shackles

//Threats
3 Meloku
4 Godhead of Awe

//Draw
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

//Countermagic
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Explanations:

Chrome Mox - solid acceleration, enables turn one Chalice.

Chalice of the Void - stops StP, buries thresh and combo

Back to Basics - Stops many decks including Landstill cold. But could be better off cutting this to support 2 Saprazzan Skerr/Mishra's Factory and a white splash to let me play Oblivion Ring and Engineered Explosives.

Meloku - great by itself and fantastic with Godhead

Godhead of Awe - godsend against aggro, one of MUC's worst matchups.

---------------------Original Opening Post----------------------

A number of high cc but quality beaters have been printed as of late.

Everything from Guile to Divinity of Pride, Demigod of Revenge, Ghastlord of Fugue and Godhead of Awe. Despite their high cc, all of them are very efficent and have powerful effects. And I honestly really wanted a thread to discuss all of them and compare their strengths and weaknesses in legacy.

One card I'm curious to get your opinion on is...

Ghastlord of Fugue :ub::ub::ub::ub::ub:

~ is unblockable
When ~ deals damage to a player, that player reveals his or her hand. You pick a card from it and that player discards that card.

4/4

Handpicking and robbing your opponent of their very best card every turn and knowing their exact game plan, all in an unblockable creature, seems pretty powerful.

Hippie while low cc is very easy to block with any flyer, easy to burn, and doesn't give you insight to their whole gameplan and pick their best card.

[The Wes]

5 is still a crapload. I guess you could do it turn one with 2 dark rits. But if thats the case and you really have 2 dark rits why not just hit them with a load of discard. Do it any later and you still have to wait one turn to attack. Any deck that you really want to play discard against you really want it that turn, not to have to wait around for it. And though its unblockable the format still revolves around removing a 2 mana green creature in most games. Just seems like you could spend that 5 mana in a lot of better ways.

[Clark Kant]

I figured he was going to be compared to Hypnotic Specter.

But he really is there for a completely different type of deck.

I am not sure you want to play him in a suicide deck with ritual and Hypnotic Specter. Those decks want to win asap. To them disruption is just a quick burst to let their threat finish the opponent off.

You want to play him in control or controllish decks that are already capable of protecting him if needed, where he gives you complete insight into your opponent's whole gameplan, robs them of their best card, and then you know which cards you should Force of Will and which you should let through. A deck like MUC, MBC, landstill and such.

For a deck like MUC, even if he only just hits once, getting knowledge of your opponents gameplan and taking their best card is worth it. Hell, even if he gets countered, thats one less counter your opponent has to fight with you over Fact or Fiction or another critical spell that you try to resolve.

In such decks, Hippe isn't good enough, because he can be blocked by any flyer your opponent has and can be killed by even one lightning bolt, and he's not even worth protecting or fighting a counterwar over because his ability while strong is no where near as broken Ghastlards. He doesn't give you insight to their whole gameplan and let you pick their best card.


Don't get me wrong though, he's not the only card I want to discuss. All the avatars are rather strong.

Other recent cards like Guile are very strong too. I want to discuss them all here, to figure out which of them are the best.

[edgewalker]

Why play him when Meloku, the cloud mirror is so much more controlling? One big dude is much less than a threat than a bunch of little dudes. Obviously you can't block him but you can swords him all day long as well as bounce him, etc etc. His only plus is he's terror/shriekmaw proof.

EDIT: I also have to disagree with you on, "All the avatars are rather strong." Because they're not. Oversoul of Dusk costs to much for that G/W wants to be doing, Godhead of Awe is much worse than humility, since most of the time you want them to lose abilities not just their body. I'd rather have 1/1's that do shit without 4/4 body, for 4, than a bunch of 1/1's that do things with a 4/4 body for 5. Dues of Calamity is just a bad card for legacy period. R/g will never play a guy that size with that lame of an ability, and the same holds true for Demigod of Revenge, so red or black deck really wants to invest 5 mana for such a "useless" beater. I say useless because most black decks that are playing 5 mana for a beater want him to win the game now, not later, not in a turn or two, now! You could also argue that tarmogoyf is just a better creature anyways, but rather than start a "omfg goyf is fucking busted ban him" thread, I'll assume you already knew that and we all agree he's just better.

[Clark Kant]

I'll revise that statement, some of the avatars (those not focused just on beatdown) seem rather strong.

Once again, you're looking at Ghastlard as a threat. I'm looking at him as disruption.

Meloku doesn't give you complete insight into every card in your opponent's hand, and let you pick the very best one to get rid of. That kind of insight is invaluable. One hit with Ghastlard can easily cripple your opponents whole gameplan which means he's actually worth countering that Swords. All Meloku is good for is as a beatstick.

I'm not saying Meloku is a bad card. Not even close. I'm just saying that he fulfills a seperate function.

As to where Ghastlard's function best fits or is most needed, I am not certain off. He could be strong in MUC, but I haven't tested him.

And once again, I want you guys to discuss the other Avatars and cards like Guile too. Guile also seems rather powerful in MUC. But unlike Ghastlard, MUC is the only deck tthat I see Guile working well in, so I can understand the lack of discussion he gets.

[edgewalker]

Thoughtsieze>Ghastlord, "gg sir gg"

EDIT: Meloku is disruption since it essentially acts as a fog. "I'll gladly trade my 1/1 for you're 4/5 all day."

[The Wes]

Yes they do lots of niftying things, but it seems like there are just better options. I mean the b/u one is disruption, but why not just run better disruption that isn't conditional on it being able to attack the turn after you bring it in?

[Clark Kant]

Don't ask questions to which you already know the answers. Mono blue is monoblue because it's the only way to support Back to Basics another steller disruption card. Splashing isn't an option.

And also it's a false comparison.

I'm not saying to look at his disruption ability strictly in a vaccume either.

He is both a recurrent unblockable beater and a recurruring thoughtseige.

What this means is that he is a threat that ABSOLUTELY must be countered or killed asap.

Assuming you are able to protect him, he is both a game changing bomb (a recurring thoughtseize) AND an unblockable five turn clock.

If you fail to protect him, atleast he ate a removal or counterspell in the process so you still got a 1 for 1 trade out of it.

But don't go into it thinking you won't be able to protect him for a couple of turns, blue has more than ample tools to do jsut that.

----------------------
So Meloku is good for it's fog effect (one that only works if the creatures don't have trample) but Godhead sucks?

Godhead is actually fairly strong. He turns Goys, Mongooses and such into 1/1s and then you can ignore your opponents threats and beat with him for the win, or you can block them to kill them.

Humility was a pure control card. Godhead has the same effect on cards like Goyf, but is also a large beater, a five turn clock, and a deterrent for their 1/1s to attack. Plus Godhead is blue and also pitchable to Force, which is very relevent.

Not saying that he's better than Humility, but he's not strictly worse either.

I don't know if there is a deck out there where Godhead is better than all possible alternatives at the moment, but he doesn't "suck" as you claim he does.

[The Wes]

We're just saying there are better options from what we can see in the colors. If you really just wanted us to agree with you and not question or comment on the cards, why ask? We're not gonna be able to change your opinions I'm pretty sure. Yes there are certain situations in which I'm sure each of them can be decent cards, but for the most part they are over costed for what you want them to do, and they are easily targetable creatures.

[Clark Kant]

Fair enough, I just wanted your input. Sorry if I came off as rude or anything. I wasn't trying to.

[edgewalker]

You can't look at Ghastlord in a vacuum either, there are better options. There are better options to all of the spirit avatars. I honestly think Ghastlord is one of the weaker ones since his ability doesn't seem that strong for 5 mana. A card a turn isn't that devastating.

I'm going to compare him to Hypnotic Specter even though you feel it's an unfair comparison, but I feel you arbitrarily made that choice, so I'm going to do it anyways. Hyppie is smaller, yes, but he's 2 turns faster, and nabs a card a turn and is virtually unblockable since not many fliers are played these days. He doesn't see that much play though, because 1 card a turn isn't that swingy. So many decks pack huge undercosted beaters, so people naturally need to play answers to said betters. You can take one card and then have them find another. Hell, most decks won't care if he's in play anyways because if he is, there's a good chance you're turning him side ways and last time I checked my math 6-7 damage a turn>4 damage a turn.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that he's cute, but 1 card a turn isn't as devastating as you think. You act as if it will end the game is an opponent loses one card. You fail to realize though, that people play brainstorm, ponder, infernal tutor, burning wish, fact or fiction, harmonize etc etc. Pick any tutor or card draw you want. Basically, to quote David Price, "there are no wrong threats only wrong answers." The ghastlord if used in a mono blue shell is an answer more than he is a threat.

[Clark Kant]

There is a big difference between random discard, and look at your opponent's hand, figure out their gameplan for the next few turns, and take their best card. And use that info to plan ahead, to know to save your Force for a critical spell etc. And if you haven't noticed Hippe does see play as a 4 of in pretty much every aggro deck that can support double B despite random discard being way worse.

Ghastlard is a beater that rewards playskill more than most.

You can freely take Fact or Fiction or a tutor or whatever card worries you.

[Nihil Credo]

You can freely take Fact or Fiction or a tutor or whatever card worries you.

No, you can't, because they cast it two turns ago.

[Clark Kant]

As did you. But you do realize you can run more than 1 Fact or Fiction per deck right. This isn't vintage you know. :laugh:

If not another Fact, just take whatever card they got off their first Fact.

[edgewalker]

That's the point, people play multiples of most cards. They also play multiples of other cards to get said cards. What then? What about multiples? What about a hand that has both echoing truth, and rushing river and enough mana to cast them?

[Jaiminho]

Hypnox > Ghastlord of Fugue

[Clark Kant]

If they have multiples of a card, big deal, take their best card and be happy. Even if they kill your guy before your next attack, you got yourself a 2 for 1 trade out of it.

Hypnox costs 11 mana bringing it well into the unplayable territory.

I want to be perfectly clear. I'm not saying Ghastlord belongs in MUC, I think he has potential and was considering testing him, but I just wanted to get your input on it.

As I have, what do you guys think of the other recent cards. That 4/4 flying blue humility, Guile etc.

[Anusien]

5 mana discard spells are quite bad because there isn't anything you want to take that costs more than 5. If this guy had some kind of protection he would be great, but he's going to eat Dazes and Swords to Plowshares all day. The 5 drops I want to run either protect themselves (Demigod, Morphling) or do something amazing. Plus, at 5 mana 5/5s they are less impressive than Mystic Enforcer or Tombstalker.

[Clark Kant]

They're actually very comparable to Exalted Angel, unblockable 4 damage with a very useful ability is better than a flying 4/5 with lifegain imo.

They're like Mystic Enforcer except smaller but with a very disruptive ability (something Enforcer doesn't offer).

I would like to hear your thoughts on Godhead of Awe as well.

A humility with a 4/4 flying body that is unaffected by the humility ability is quite strong.

Yes it needs to be protected to be broken, but even if it isn't, it's a 1:1 trade with their countermagic or removal spell.

Unlike humility it doesn't effect creature abilities, but nowadays, the major creatures that are played are...

Tarmogoyf
Nimble Mongoose
Tombstalker
Dreadnought

It doesn't matter that it doesn't effect their abilities, making them into 1/1s is plenty powerful.

It combos beautifully with Meloku, (Morphling, Shackles and Rainbow Efreet to some extent), Bitterblossom, Pyroclasm, Fire and Ice, Mishra's Factory and a crap load of other very solid cards worth running by themselves. They can't attack with their 1/1s if you have a Factory to block them.

As 1/1s your opponent can't attack into a 4/4 blocker or the factory. But if you're at the advantage, you can attack with your 4/4 to quickly finish them off.

[The Wes]

Without mana excel angel can be attacking for 4 on turn 4. Without mana excel these can be attacking for 4 on turn 6. Angel also allows you to try and win the damage race because of the lifegain. Yours only allows you to get rid of a card in the hand, turn 6.

I do like the ability of Godhead of Awe a lot better, but once again it easily destroyed, costs 5, and can be chump blocked all day long. The not stopping abilities does hurt it. It doesn't stop a lot of the problem creatures in dragonstompy, breakfast, deadguy, ichorid, stax (minus angel), landstill, gobs, confidants in storm combo, countersliver, affinity. A lot of decks rely on creatures because of their abilities, not just for their size.

[Clark Kant]

There's only 1 or 2 creatures in each of those decks that Godhead of Awe doesn't completely stop.

As a flyer, it's much much harder to chump than Goyf is. Almost none of the decks you listed can chump block it.

Besides, most of those listed decks are very good matchups for MUC already. Aggro has long been MUC hardest matchup and Godhead helps with that.

It stops the most popular creatures in legacy except for Confidant.

It stops Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnought and Mongoose. Even Confidant ends up as a worse Phyrexian Arena under it. The lifeloss from confidant + lifeloss from a flying Godhead.

I think it warrants some play. I've been working on a list for a day or so.

The deck is still a bit rough around the edges. It definately works well so far but it's early and needs more tweaking, testing, and tuning before we can figure out if Godhead is worth it.

//Mana
23 Island
4 Chrome Mox

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics
2 Veldalken Shackles

//Threats
3 Meloku
4 Godhead of Awe

//Draw
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

//Countermagic
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Explanations:

Chrome Mox - solid acceleration, enables turn one Chalice.

Chalice of the Void - stops StP, buries thresh and combo

Back to Basics - Stops many decks including Landstill cold. But could be better off cutting this to support 2 Saprazzan Skerr/Mishra's Factory and a white splash to let me play Oblivion Ring and Engineered Explosives.

Meloku - great by itself and fantastic with Godhead

Godhead of Awe - godsend against aggro, one of MUC's worst matchups.

[Roman Candle]

There's only 1 or 2 creatures in each of those decks that Godhead of Awe doesn't completely stop.

As a flyer, it's much much harder to chump than Goyf is. Almost none of the decks you listed can chump block it.

Besides, most of those listed decks are very good matchups for MUC already. Aggro has long been MUC hardest matchup and Godhead helps with that.

It stops the most popular creatures in legacy except for Confidant.

It stops Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnought and Mongoose. Even Confidant ends up as a worse Phyrexian Arena under it. The lifeloss from confidant + lifeloss from a flying Godhead.

I think it warrants some play. I've been working on a list for a day or so.

The deck is still a bit rough around the edges. It definately works well so far but it's early and needs more tweaking, testing, and tuning before we can figure out if Godhead is worth it.

//Mana
23 Island
4 Chrome Mox

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics
2 Veldalken Shackles

//Threats
3 Meloku
4 Godhead of Awe

//Draw
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

//Countermagic
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
1 Misdirection

Card Explanations:

Chrome Mox - solid acceleration, enables turn one Chalice.

Chalice of the Void - stops StP, buries thresh and combo

Back to Basics - Stops many decks including Landstill cold. But could be better off cutting this to support 2 Saprazzan Skerr/Mishra's Factory and a white splash to let me play Oblivion Ring and Engineered Explosives.

Meloku - great by itself and fantastic with Godhead

Godhead of Awe - godsend against aggro, one of MUC's worst matchups.

As a general rule, finishers in control decks have to be able to do something before they die to StP. This is especially important for MUC, who doesn't have room to play redundant finishers. Therefore, I don't see either Godhead or Ghastlord seeing any real competitive play. If you're really worried about aggro, Propaganda is your best bet mono-blue. I can't think of a finisher in a control deck in Legacy that doesn't fit this category.

[Anusien]

It stops Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnought and Mongoose.
Mongoose will be a 3/3 under Godhead. Enforcer will be a 4/4.

The real question is, "Why play a guy that is just going to die to StP?" (and it will, considering you have few other targets). If you hit that much mana and are going to die to Goyf anyway, play a different deck. You can practically Duplicant the Goyf for that price.

[Clark Kant]

Chalice at 1 stops StP cold and plenty of other cards without effecting your own deck.

Even if you don't resolve chalice, you also have plenty of ways to protect it from Force. Counterspell, FoW, Misdirection combined with all the card draw makes it fairly easy to protect.

Propaganda is only so so useful against aggro.

They can still attack with their 5/6 goyf just by paying two mana. Mid-late game, your opponent has no problem paying 4 mana to swing with their guys.

And most importantly, Propaganda is not a clock/finisher.

[Roman Candle]

Chalice at 1 stops StP cold and plenty of other cards without effecting your own deck.

Even if you don't resolve chalice, you also have plenty of ways to protect it from Force. Counterspell, FoW, Misdirection combined with all the card draw makes it fairly easy to protect.

Propaganda is only so so useful against aggro.

They can still attack with their 5/6 goyf just by paying two mana. Mid-late game, your opponent has no problem paying 4 mana to swing with their guys.

And most importantly, Propaganda is not a clock/finisher.

Why play Chalice of the Void just so you can support a mediocre card?

The whole point is, you SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PROTECT A FINISHER. IT SHOULD DO THIS FOR YOU.

Aside from that, if you made it to mid-late game with MUC, you should be able to win. Most MUC builds play Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives anyway, so by that time, you can start stealing guys with Shackles or blasting them away.

[Clark Kant]

Why wouldn't you play Chalice?

You're acting like Chalice isn't the absolute completely broken bomb that it actually is.

Chalice doesn't effect you at all and yet Chalice at 1 shuts down all sorts of combo, and threshold and burn completely. Then if you really feel like being mean, a Chalice at 2 shuts down 98% of the remaining cards in decks like Eva Green, Burn and Thresh.

For the last time, just because a card deals 4 damage a turn doesn't mean it's in their mainly for it's finisher role.

It's there as a higher casting cost but superior Propaganda.

Propaganda is barely useful against Tombstalker, Goyf and Dreadnought, and they're the meanest and most popular creatures in the format by far. Godhead however works well against all three.

Between FoW, Counterspell and Chalice, MUC doesn't have a problem surviving to the midgame. The problem has always been MUC losing in the midgame (turn 5 and onwards) because it can't respond to all the threats that your opponents keep playing. Godhead fills that need.



There are a number of previously bad matchups that I found Godhead to be invaluable in. Eva Green used to completely wreck my MUC builds. Now all I have to do is stall them till turn 4 and cast Godhead to stabilize instantly. The only removal they play is Snuff Out and without supplemental card draw, it is fairly easy to protect against.

[Roman Candle]

Why wouldn't you play Chalice?

You're acting like Chalice isn't the absolute completely broken bomb that it actually is.

Chalice doesn't effect you at all and yet Chalice at 1 shuts down all sorts of combo, and threshold and burn completely. Then if you really feel like being mean, a Chalice at 2 shuts down 98% of the remaining cards in decks like Eva Green, Burn and Thresh.

For the last time, just because a card deals 4 damage a turn doesn't mean it's in their mainly for it's finisher role.

It's there as a higher casting cost but superior Propaganda.

Propaganda is barely useful against Tombstalker, Goyf and Dreadnought, and they're the meanest and most popular creatures in the format by far. Godhead however works well against all three.

Between FoW, Counterspell and Chalice, MUC doesn't have a problem surviving to the midgame. The problem has always been MUC losing in the midgame (turn 5 and onwards) because it can't respond to all the threats that your opponents keep playing. Godhead fills that need.



There are a number of previously bad matchups that I found Godhead to be invaluable in. Eva Green used to completely wreck my MUC builds. Now all I have to do is stall them till turn 4 and cast Godhead to stabilize instantly. The only removal they play is Snuff Out and without supplemental card draw, it is fairly easy to protect against.


What I'm saying is you have to play Chrome Mox to support Chalice, which is a -1 that's only marginally useful without Chalice. Chalice is a great card, but there's a reason not every deck runs it. Anyway, the real concern is Godhead.

MUC should stabilize by turn 5. Saying that FoW, Chalice, and Counterspell alone will get you to the midgame is just ignorant. An average MUC list plays 4Counterspell, 4 Force of Will, 3 Foil, 3-4 EE/Powder Keg, and 3-4 Propaganda, and STILL has a very hard time with aggro.

Not to mention, Propaganda is better against Ichorid and Empty the Warrens. Storm combo is one of your worst matchups.

Propaganda+BtB is quite nearly a lock against many decks.

Godhead does absolutely nothing to Nimble Mongoose or Mystic Enforcer.

I don't mean to be rude, I'm just trying to help.

[Clark Kant]

I appreciate the feedback.

In my opinion though, Eva Green is barely effected by Back to Basics and only moderatately slowed by Propaganda. Godhead devastates it though. And all you have to do is save a counter or MisD for their Snuff Out (not easy but definatley doable).

I've been playing MUC for almost two years now. Many many MUC lists opt to play Chrome Mox and Chalice. It fell out of favor recently, but there really was no metagame reason for it to do so. Chalice remains an exceptionally strong card against the most popular decks (thresh) and MUC's worser matchups (combo, Eva Green, burn etc).

I think you and I are using different defintions of the midgame. I consider turn 5 and beyond the midgame. My experience with MUC taught me that MUC has no problem surviving till turn 5. The fastest and most aggressive decks goldfish on turn 4, but any combination of FoW, counterspell or Chalice slows them down by a few turns atleast by countering their best creature.. But if doesn't stabilize by turn 6 or so, it's in trouble. The timing of Godhead is perfect, it hits the ground one turn before you absolutely need to stabilize, and it pretty much stabilizes as soon as it hits play.

I'm not sure if Godhead is and ideal fit in MUC. It's been doing well for me. But that doesn't mean the card is optimal. Perhaps it's better suited for a white control deck of somesort akin to parfait, or in a deck with Mishra's Factories and Standstills.

All I'm saying is that it's a good card worth exploring in legacy.

Don't forget how strong Godhead is with Meloku either.

The timing with Ancestral Visions or Fact or Fiction couldn't be more perfect either. You draw a bunch of cards just at the right time that if one of them is Godhead, you can cast it, or if you already have Godhead, have a good shot at drawing a counterspell to protect it.

[The Wes]

First off, didn't realize it was a flier, so my bad.

I think people just want to know, why worry about protecting it? Why play it at all? It starts hitting their hand, if it ever does, turn 5 if you had a chrome mox. So at turn 5 you've taken away one of their cards and I must ask the question "so?". Most decks have already layed down their threats or are controling the game. Or on turn 4 you've layed down a creature that greatly slows down their beats. Why not play a finished that actually finishes the game, not one that gives them 5 turns to find an out. Especially when you only run 8 counters. Being that most thresh/stifflenaught run that many too, along brainstorms and the like, how are you going to have enough to protect your own creatures?

Also doesn't chalice hurt you too? Don't you want to be running braindstorms or ponders for card selection? Or stifles? Also the most common out against chalices are engineered explosives, and you can't drop a chalice for zero to stop them without stoping your own visions. I play stax like crazy, and its often hard to get the lock pieces to stick against many decks and I'm designed to have 2-3 mana turn one.

It just seems that if you are relying on a card to hit the table and stablize and save you you might want to find a card thats not overpriced and easily removed, so you can save yourself a turn or two sooner.

[Clark Kant]

Also doesn't chalice hurt you too? Don't you want to be running braindstorms or ponders for card selection? Or stifles? Also the most common out against chalices are engineered explosives, and you can't drop a chalice for zero to stop them without stoping your own visions. I play stax like crazy, and its often hard to get the lock pieces to stick against many decks and I'm designed to have 2-3 mana turn one.

It seems that you are very unfamilar with MUC. Have a look over at the MUC thread.

Almost none of the lists run Brainstorm, and absolutely none of them run Ponder or Counterbalanace or Stifle. Visions, raw card advantage proved superior. So no, Chalice doesn't hurt you at all. Those cards really don't work well in MUC.

You may still be right about Godhead. All I'm saying is that in the time I've tried him out, he seemed rather strong. But it's way too early to decide if he is optimal or actually superior in the deck over all other possible alternatives.

[The Wes]

Ok, forget chalice, I never look at the MUC thread. I just love dropping chalices for zero or trini against visions. That was a side note that I should have just skipped completely.

I'm still just not sure why you want to play an easily removed overpriced creature that doesn't dramatically and permanently change the game state. Meloku comes into play and suddenly they have a creature that even if you get rid of it, most likely its left lots of little flying 1/1s in its place. Morphy comes into play and suddenly they have a near invincible creature that can both attack for decent damage and block every turn. Either way they better hurry their ass up and find an aswer for it damn quick. Godhead comes into play and they destroy it on their turn and everything goes back to the way it was before or you attack for 4 a few times until they find an answer. A finisher needs to permanently change the game state or have to be answered very quickly. Godhead does neither.

But back to the discussion, you asked us what we thought, we told you that they were overprice and not very good, you demand back that they are good for these reason, we reply that they still arn't that good, and no one changes their opinion. Is their really any point of keeping this going?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It seems that you are very unfamiliar with MUC. Have a look over at the MUC thread.

Almost none of the lists run BrainstormIt seems that you are very unfamiliar with Mono Blue Control. Brainstorm is oft run as seen in these four decks. [1 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16706), 2 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16639), 3 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16640), 4 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16370)]

And the reason that they're all judged as finishers is that any disruption that comes online by turn six is too slow for consideration.

[Clark Kant]

Okay fine, lets just drop it. I already conceded that I'm not sure if Godhead is the best choice in MUC. I"m just testing him so far. And he's not bad at all. Not neccesarily optimal, but certainly not a bad card. I'll leave you with this.

Meloku is very vulnerable to removal the turn you cast him too. Because having spent 5 mana to cast him, you rarely have any islands to use to create 1/1 tokens that same turn. Bouncing back multiple islands costs you a lot of tempo too.

Yet he is good enough that MUC both plays him and goes to lenghts to protect him. One major reason he is popular is that he creates an army of 1/1 chump blockers to help you stabilize versus aggro on turn 6 when you risk being over run by aggro. Godhead does the same thing but does it one turn faster. And has excellent synergy with Meloku, and doesn't care about stuff like trample or islandwalk/shadow/evasion of some sort on the attackers.

Same with Exalted Angel. Many vintage blue based control decks splashed white and played Angel as the win condition to stabilize versus aggro, even though he eats up two full turns of mana and needs to be protected too. Godhead is comparable.


It seems that you are very unfamiliar with Mono Blue Control. Brainstorm is oft run as seen in these four decks.

LOL. That's hilarious...

Here's a quote from the opening post of the official MUC thread by Kadaj...



NO BRAINSTORM?!?!?!!!1111

Yes, no Brainstorm. Contrary to popular belief, Brainstorm is not an auto-include in every single deck playing blue. At least not in my book. Why? Well, for starters, let’s look at what Brainstorm actually does. It draws you three cards, but then requires you put two back on top of your library, so you don’t net any actual card advantage. Instead you essentially get to reorder the top of your library in addition to your hand. While that’s not a terrible effect, Brainstorm really gets ridiculous when a shuffle effect is involved. Now you have potentially shuffled away two cards you didn’t want, in addition to investing the Brainstorm, and replaced them with 3 new cards of higher value. That’s quite amazing! So why isn’t Brainstorm in my list then, now that I’ve finished singing the card’s praises? Count the shuffle effects in my list. That’s right, zero. Not one. So, instead of being the ridiculous cantrip-supreme that just earned itself a place on the Vintage restricted list, Brainstorm is merely an ok cantrip in my list. Would you put an Opt in that slot? I didn’t think so. Don’t let the name Brainstorm fool you into thinking it belongs in every single deck with blue, although it certainly does come very close, this just happens to be one of the rare exceptions.

Still not convinced? Look at Zvi’s list. Zvi was (and probably still is) one of the all-time great Magic players and deck designers. Brainstorm was quite legal in Standard at the time he put that build together, so why didn’t he include it? For exactly the same reasons I didn’t. It doesn’t do enough without the presence of shuffle effects or a much higher need for early game card selection to warrant its slots.

Now that that’s out of the wa-- What now?! Oh, Ancestral Vision and Foil? Yeah I guess those do look a bit weird at first glance. And probably second glance too.

Basically, Ancestral Vision is in my list because it is by far the second best card advantage mechanism available to my build. Standstill is the only card even remotely comparable, and MUC just isn’t equipped to take advantage of Standstill, which leaves AV is the only viable option. Despite the seemingly clunky appearance and obvious lack of speed, AV is actually a total bomb in this list. Being able to invest one mana on turn one, when you would otherwise have no plays anyway, and reap the rewards at a later date for no addition cost is absolutely huge due to the way my build plays. Much like Zvi’s list, this build cannot rely on countermagic to maintain control over an entire game. Or even an entire phase of the game. Instead, it utilizes a whopping 14 permanent board control cards to limit an opponent’s options down to practically nil. Ever tried to attack through a pair of Propagandas playing Threshold? Not fun. Same thing for Landstill, except replace attack with play anything at all and Propaganda with Back to Basics.

Also, drawing three cards is a hugely powerful effect, even if you have to wait four turns to actually reap the rewards. Seriously, there’s a reason cards like Concentrate cost four mana. Namely, they’d be broken if they required anything less. Ancestral Vision costs just one mana, and none on the turn it resolves, making it extremely easy to defend and an extremely powerful card in its own right.

Brainstorm is honest to god quite subpar in the deck. Please go out there and play MUC a fire a while and compare Visions to Brainstorm. I have.

It's honestly only modertately playable if you're playing fetchlands, which MUC has absolutely no reason to do. It doesn't want to thin out lands (it wants to play a land each turn, it doesn't want to lose a life each time it plays a land, and it certainly doesn't want to open itself up to Stifle.

Besides, raw card drawing is WAY WAY superior to card shuffling in MUC.

[edgewalker]

God, I hate to do this, but Clark Kant is right, brainstorm is garbage in MUC. The deck would much rather play raw card advantage rather than cantriping and fixing draws. Regardless, the spirit avatars are junk so the argument is pretty much moot.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

There's a difference on whether a card should be run or is run. He stated that almost no MUC deck lists ran Brainstorm, and I cited four examples of MUC deck lists that top 8'ed with Brainstorm recently.

[Clark Kant]

So what exactly are you arguing or trying to prove. I'm sure I can find some build of Dragon Stompy somewhere that opts to cut Chalice of the Void and run Lightning Bolt instead. Doesn't make that a good choice.



It seems that you are very unfamilar with MUC. Have a look over at the MUC thread.

Almost none of the lists run Brainstorm, and absolutely none of them run Ponder or Counterbalanace or Stifle.

That was my quote.

I think it was crystal clear I am talking about the developed MUC lists in the MUC thread, not random MUC lists that aren't optimal and may not even have been tested.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

So what exactly are you arguing or trying to prove. I'm sure I can find some build of Dragon Stompy somewhere that opts to cut Chalice of the Void and run Lightning Bolt instead. Doesn't make that a good choice.Find four that have top 8 in the past three months. That's exactly what I. Four lists running Brainstorm since May.
I think it was crystal clear I am talking about the developed MUC lists in the MUC thread, not random MUC lists that aren't optimal and may not even have been tested.Again, 'random lists' that top 8. Four of them. You're ignoring raw data. Not every list will be run though that thread, it isn't a whole picture.

[Clark Kant]

Again, you're completely missing the point.

My statement was...

"Have a look over at the MUC thread. Almost none of the lists run Brainstorm..."

So no, your post doesn't contradict that statement at all. Not even close.

And yes, Brainstorm IS a crappy card in MUC. Arguing against that just goes to show that you're unfamiliar with the deck.

[Roman Candle]

Again, you're completely missing the point.

My statement was...

"Have a look over at the MUC thread. Almost none of the lists run Brainstorm..."

So no, your post doesn't contradict that statement at all. Not even close.

And yes, Brainstorm IS a crappy card in MUC. Arguing against that just goes to show that you're unfamiliar with the deck.

SV didn't say it was good in MUC, he explicitly stated that something that is run and something that should be run are different things.

Also, tournament lists>thread lists. Anyone can register onto the Source and just post their "OMGBBQOTKMUC" list.

[Clark Kant]

You too seem to be arguing that Brainstorm is a good card in MUC. If you indeed are, I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Brainstorm has been discredited a dozen times in the MUC thread so just go read that if you can't figure why the card isn't worthwhile. But if you actually play MUC, it doesn't take long to figure out that Brainstorm isn't worth running.

As for tourney lists. You can't possibly believe that every single list that does well at a tournament is optimal. Do you really think it's that farfetched for a suboptimal list running a couple of cards that aren't ideal in an otherwise strong shell can top 8 at a tourney? No, one random forum decklist is likely not optimal either. But the collective experience of dozens of people who play a deck regularly that all tested the card in question and came to the same conclusion is pretty reliable.

[Roman Candle]

You too seem to be arguing that Brainstorm is a good card in MUC. If you indeed are, I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Brainstorm has been discredited a dozen times in the MUC thread so just go read that if you can't figure why the card isn't worthwhile. But if you actually play MUC, it doesn't take long to figure out that Brainstorm isn't worth running.

I have played MUC, and I actually agree that Brainstorm doesn't deserve a slot in the deck. But SV is showing how some decks do choose to use it. He has raw data, you have hypotheticals. The only data you can present is games that you've said you've played but that we can gain no information from. Try posting a game log of a game against Suiblack/Eva Green/etc.

Ugh, this argument has already spammed three threads, can we be done now please?

[Clark Kant]

You're completely missing the point.

He took my statement which was...

"Have a look over at the MUC thread. Almost none of the lists run Brainstorm..."

and misstated it to be.


He stated that almost no MUC deck lists ran Brainstorm, and I cited four examples of MUC deck lists that top 8'ed with Brainstorm recently.

As for tourney lists. You can't possibly believe that every single list that does well at a tournament is optimal. Do you really think it's that farfetched for a suboptimal list running a couple of cards that aren't ideal in an otherwise strong shell can top 8 at a tourney? No, I'm not saying that one random forum decklist is optimal either.

But the collective experience of dozens of people who play a deck regularly that all tested the card in question and all came to the same conclusion is pretty reliable. That's how it was determined that Brainstorm is subpar.

[Illissius]

Some MUC lists run Brainstorm, others don't. Both choices are defensible.

[Clark Kant]

Brainstorm is a fine card. But in MUC, it really honest to god does not belong. Ancestral Visions is most definately the better card.

Unfortunately, Visions is a fairly recent card that I'm don't think a lot MUC players have switched over to yet. New cards almost always take a long time to be tested and implemented into control decks. Hell it took a couple of months to convince several Thresh players that Goyf is indeed superior to Werebear!! And it took even longer for people to accept Tombstalker as a very good threat in sui black variants. And counterbalance took well over an year before people finally started using it. But just because everyone hasn't yet tried and switched over to Visions yet doesn't mean it's not superior.

[FoolofaTook]

Why is Brainstorm not a good inclusion in MUC? I don't see the logic. The only thing it loses is the fetch-reshuffle dynamic, and while that is a wonderful dynamic it's not the only reason Brainstorm is a great card.

Things Brainstorm does for MUC:

Allows hand manipulation when necessary to avoid targetted discard.

Digs as well as any other cantrip out there, trading off lower mana cost with the other instants and instant speed with the 1cc sorceries that allow reshuffles.

Is still the only card in Legacy that allows you to pull and keep the top 3 cards of your deck at almost any point in the game.

Works with the 1cc cantrips that allow reshuffles to replace ineffective cards in the hand in the midgame. Two land in the hand still becomes a shot at two higher value cards with a Brainstorm, Ponder and you don't lose any card advantage doing that, just 2 blue mana during your turn.

Works as well with Counterbalance as any card except for Sensei's Divining Top.

That's a lot of value to give up just because the fetchland synergy is missing.

[Clark Kant]

Sigh. Let's just drop the topic okay. If you're not a MUC player, you likely won't understand. Go read the MUC thread, or better yet, play the deck, if you really want to understand the reasons.

[Kadaj]

Some MUC lists run Brainstorm, others don't. Both choices are defensible.

What he said. However, it is important to note that a lot of the synergy Foolofatook pointed out is either nonexistent or irrelevant to MUC lists that don't run fetchlands. MUC lists that don't run fetches don't want a cantrip, which is the reason they don't run Brainstorm. They're not built, and thus not equipped, to take advantage of what Brainstorm brings to a deck.

But, there are plenty of lists that do run fetchlands and Brainstorm, and, as SV pointed out, they've certainly seen plenty of success.

Yet, that's really pretty irrelevant to this thread. This thread is about the new "deities" printed in Shadowmoor, and soon to be added too in Eventide, and their viability or lack thereof.

Personally, I don't think any of them are viable in Legacy, or at least not in any currently built deck. They cost too much for their effects to be simply slid into an existing skeleton, and some of them are just outright lacking in viability because they're either too slow or not nearly impacting enough for the 5 mana they cost.

I would like to try an Intuition based build for Demigod of Revenge, just because it seems at the very least it would be fun to try, but I doubt it's truly a viable idea.

[Roman Candle]

Demigod of Revenge has been used successfully in Survival.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17933