UG Madness and varients

[Dark_Cynic87]

With the metagame as it is, I've pulled out my list from Nat's, 2004 win-a-mox side event. I played it since torment came out, but put it away right after '04. Now I've finally decided that the meta is right. Discard sux against it, flying whips the crap out of everything these days, and it has the ability to stop combo, and is decent against control. Goyf is a joke against an evasive 4/4. With the inclusion of countertop, it's got more than enough countering power, and in fact it's probably better than Thresh in that it has a better amount of casting costs:

0cc: 17x lands
1cc: Brainstorm, SDT, B. Rootwalla
2cc: Wild Mongrel, Aquamoeba, Counterbalance
3cc: Circular Logic, Intuition, Krosan Grip
4cc: Deep Analysis, Wonder
5cc: Force of Will, Arrogant Wurm/Reckless Wurm

So it's a fairly distributed mana-cost spectrum for the use of Counterbalance, with 7 or 8x other countspells available as well. With Top, you almost always have the 1cc counter available, plus the scrye ability.

Now, the old list I ran in 2004 and previous years looked like this:

Creatures--17
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
1x Wonder
2x Aquamoeba
3x Arrogant Wurm
3x Waterfront Bouncer

Spells--25
4x Force of Will
4x Circular Logic
4x Brainstorm
3x Roar of the Wurm
3x Intuition
3x Daze
2x Deep Analysis
2x Careful Study

Land--18
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Wasteland
2x Yavimaya Coast
2x Forest
2x Island

This list is less than optimal now. With the printing of Life from the Loam, this deck could be brutal against many builds in the format, via grabbing three lands, tossing 2 to mongrel swinging for 4 flying each turn and burning one of their lands. There's also the possibility of running up to 8x 4/4 Tramplers.

LED wasn't included in my build, but I think it should be.

This has the ability to be good against Goblins with Propagandas in the SB. I'm not sure if it needs any other mana accel, but I don't think so. LED should be good. Against non-blue lists, LED into a Wurm turn 1 after your land drop can be brutal, especially when you get Wonder in the yard.

Here are card explanations:

4x Wild Mongrel--For a long time this was considered one of the best 2-drops ever printed, and even one of the best creatures ever printed.

4x Basking Rootwalla--This card was a mistake. It's usefulness is only surpassed by how crappy it's art is.

1x Wonder--This is one of the MAIN reasons I brought this list back out. Flying is EXTREMELY underrated in the current meta, and I think it will continue to be.

2x Aquamoeba--Another good 2-drop and discard outlet. It's discarding ability can really mess with combat math, and it's more agressive than you would first think.

3x Arrogant Wurm--4/4 Trampling fatty for 2G. I think so.

3x Waterfront Bouncer--This was for a metagame with lots of 'Tog. Back in the day, it was the deck to beat. Many an epic game was won thanks to this fella. Pithing Needle was only a pipe dream back then.

4x Force of Will--Obvious.

4x Circular Logic--1 blue mana never seemed so scary.

4x Brainstorm--Duh.

3x Roar of the Wurm--A 6/6 flyer for 3G was amazing. Not so much these days with all the EE running around.

3x Intuition--Stellar in the list. Honestly.

3x Daze--Free counter.

2x Deep Analysis--This card blows my mind...

2x Careful Study--A non-permanent discard outlet, can still be a solid choice, but with Counterbalance printed it's less necessary for quite this amount of Sorcery-Speed dig.

--Land--These should be obvious.

4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Wasteland
2x Yavimaya Coast
2x Forest
2x Island


I was thinking about a 3rd color splash, but I can't really tell which one I like better, Red or Black. Red has the option of 8x Wurms, but black has nice removal and creature recovery. I think I could run the creature recovery card without having to splash black simply because it's madness cost is 0. Or a singleton USea/Swamp for a better black splash. I'd like some input on it. Anyway, here's my most current list:

Creatures--16
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
1x Wonder
1x Aquamoeba
4x Arrogant Wurm
2x Reckless Wurm

Spells--25
4x LED
4x Force of Will
3x Circular Logic
3x Brainstorm
3x Intuition
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Deep Analysis
1x Life from the Loam

Land--17
4x Tropical Island
3x Polluted Delta
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Wasteland
1x Volcanic Island
1x Treetop Village
1x Island
1x Forest

There's more to this deck than first meets the eye. Firstly, I don't think anyone really understands just how powerful flying is. Rootwalla's aren't big, but after you get one dropped and a Wonder in the yard, it's pretty scary. The Loam engine is a house.

Other cards I want to try:
Manamorphose--This could really eliminate the need for red in the list altogether mixed with LED. It would make a lot more viable for your SB also. Like red and black without needing anything more than a single badlands (both fetches can hit that...)

Pernicious Deed--With a black splash, Deed would be viable somewhere, the board is most likely. You can blow it up for 4 and still keep a 4/4 trampler on the board. Not bad. Can in theory really help the Goblin Matchup and the EtW combo if used quick enough.

Tog--I'm not highly impressed with it in these builds, but I must say that it may go in as a 1-of in place of Aquamoeba just because it's a decent finisher.

SB choices:
Cards to choose from are obviously for your environment, but I like:

Stifle: Good against so much stuff it's not even funny.

K. Grip: Obvious. In a control MU it's not negotiable. Landstill's stupid Humility has to go. Good against Blood Moon, etc.

Call to the Underworld--It's an option, and seems like a good choice with LED. In fact, I think it's not too shabby.

Dark Withering--Goyf killer for B. Crappy as all get-out without a discard engine.

--Matchups and better organization to come--

Pce,

--DC

[Dark_Cynic87]

Dummy Post for MU's and etc.

[Drac]

There really is no reason not to run Tarmogoyf..

you say flying> tarmogoyf

then my math says

flying Tarmogyf should be even better then a flying shark.

[Dark_Cynic87]

It figures that goyf would be the first item brought up for discussion on this list, and just so we're clear, I never said Tarmogoyf was good. In addition, I'd like to make it clear that you are wrong.

Here's why Mongrel >>> Goyf:

Wild Mongrel fills the 2cc green creature slot infinitely better as it fuels the entire strategy of the deck. Goyf does NOTHING for the build. There is absolutely no scenario in existance where a turn 2 goyf is going to be better than a turn 2 Mongrel in any build of madness.

[/lesson]

You have to have a discard outlet, and mongrel is the best one out there.

Also, Arrogant Wurm and Reckless Wurm are absolutely better than goyf as they can be played as instants, and I might point out that if you have a goyf down and not a mongrel, chances of playing them as instants significantly decline. With LED, you can have a turn 1 4/4 Trampler. Not sure goyf is that good.

It's about synergy, not a cheap fatty.

Pce,

--DC

[Sanguine Voyeur]

But Roar of the Wurm is a four mana 6/6 while Goyf is a two mana 4/5. You're playing an aggro control deck with green. You need more justification then 'synergy' for not running Tarmogoyf.

[Drac]

I do not agree with you at all.

Tarmogoyf is better then a Wurm.

for starters.. Tarmogoyf is usually bigger then wurm

there are many times when Wurm is a bad topdeck, and Tarmogoyf is not.

im also not sure if LED is actually good in this deck.
First turn 4/4 without hand seems stupid in this format.

not only is Tarmogoyf bigger then your wurm. Also 1 removal spell and you are in a tough spot.

I recommend the following changes:

-4 LED
-2 Reckless Wurm

+4 Tarmogoyf
+1 Aquemoeba
+1 brainstorm

[kicks_422]

Yup. LED seems kind of stupid alongside LED's which you want to pop early. But even with the above changes, you're still at 6 discard outlets (6 mongrels, 2 moeba). You probably need more.

[ParkerLewis]

But Roar of the Wurm is a four mana 6/6 while Goyf is a two mana 4/5. You're playing an aggro control deck with green. You need more justification then 'synergy' for not running Tarmogoyf.

1) Like he said.

Get rid of all the subpar wurms (yeah, the arrogant and reckless ones too) and replace them with Goyfs. He's cheaper, fatter, and doesn't require you to have discard outlet to be played. He's superior in every way imaginable.

2) The LED thing is a REALLY bad idea. So you'll get rid of all your hand by yourself just to try to drop a 6/6 ?

The metagame is full of FoW and Dazes. And then, if it actually comes down, the metagame is full of StP and other cheap removal like edicts, EE, Keg, or whatever.
Seriously, I would love it if my opponents were to do that every game.

Bad idea jeans.

Recommended changes :

-6 Wurm
-4 LED
+4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Aquamoeba
+1 Brainstorm
+3 free slots for removal.

[Nihil Credo]

I agree with the above comments. I used to play Übermadness, and the LED-fueled openers from that day would be seriously underwhelming in the current, more efficient meta. You'd have to play Chrome Mox so that you could also have a t1 two-drop and... well, it just doesn't seem worth it.

Arrogant Wurms alongside Tarmogoyf still seem worth exploring, however. But there are plenty of better discard outlets than LED around. Survival of the Fittest is the most obvious, and several Survival/Madness hybrids have actually placed well in recent memory. Other options could be Oona's Prowler and good old Psychatog. Or for a more aggressive approach, there's Gathan Raiders.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'll go for the Moxen, but as for the wurms, you guys are out of your minds. You forget how nice an eot wurm is. It's basically hasted. They act as combat trix, and they are not bad topdecks at all.

I've explored Gathan Raiders and in a list that likes to hold on to counters until needed, it's crap. It's a 1-time outlet that is seldom a 5/5.

'Tog I like because it's pitchable to FoW. Prowler just can't compare in the late game.

You guys should test goyf. I'm telling you right now that ur wrong. I'm sure u'll win, but the point is finding out which is actually better, and I know which is. Mongrel is just too damn tricky. With Goyf, they can swords it early for minimal lifeloss. Swords my Mongrel as a 2/2, and I can trick the crap out of them, and end up with one of two options: a 5/5 with 2 rootwallas suddenly coming down, or laugh and toss a circular logic for the counter.

In fact, it might be worth going 3x Mongrel, 1x Moeba 1x Tog simply to stop the needle-fuck, which is what LED solves in a pinch. 7 might be the right number. I'll work with my numbers a tad, I have been a little screwed once in a while. 6 isn't bad, 7 is probably optimal. You do NOT need more than that.

Parker, your comment about counterspells and removal are re-goddamn-diculous as the exact same things could be said about Goyf, or any other creature without shroud, not to mention counterspells hit every spell without split second or "shroud".

Also, you might think Wurms are bad, but by themselves they are a 5-turn timeclock. In pairs they are the scariest thing on the fucking planet. 7 a turn just by pumping Walla with 1 out. That's a 3-turn timeclock. I will also mention that by being able to play your creatures EOT, you can save your mana to help power top to control your CB flips.

One more point, Wurms cost 5. FoW costs 5. I'm running CB. Gee, coincidence? They are good, instant-ish, 4/4 trampling counterspells against the (now second to goyf) MOST COMMONLY PLAYED card in legacy. I'd say that's a huge plus in their favor.

As for removal, I'm not sure I need much. CB with cc from 1 to 5, FoW, Circular Logic seems to be good answers. For removal what would you guys consider? Smother? Bolt? Smother isn't too bad, but bolt isn't that whoopy. There's Fiery Temper, but it's probably strictly worse than Bolt.

I promise that Wurms are WELL worth it.

I know the colors are on and the build might be a lot like it, but stop pushing this towards thresh. It's not the same, and while it looks like it's really close, it couldn't play more different.

Pce,

--DC

[Nihil Credo]

Hold on there. Am I reading that right that you did not test Goyf?

By the way, no-one ever said you should cut Mongrel. That would be stupid.

Here's a couple of decklists you may want to try out:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14071 (traditional Madness)
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=14918 & http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=13200 (Survival Madness)

[Roman Candle]

I'll go for the Moxen, but as for the wurms, you guys are out of your minds. You forget how nice an eot wurm is. It's basically hasted. They act as combat trix, and they are not bad topdecks at all.

Yes, I did forget how nice an EoT 4/4 is in a format full of 2-mana 5/6's. Forgive me for that mental lapse.


'Tog I like because it's pitchable to FoW. Prowler just can't compare in the late game.

Tog can't compare in the early game. And a deck with a curve like Madness's should be trying to win in the early game.



Parker, your comment about counterspells and removal are re-goddamn-diculous as the exact same things could be said about Goyf, or any other creature without shroud, not to mention counterspells hit every spell without split second or "shroud".

I totally agree. Especially since every card reads "As an additional cost to play CARDNAME, -5 yourself on cards."

Also, you can Counterspell guys with shroud.


Also, you might think Wurms are bad, but by themselves they are a 5-turn timeclock.

Goyf by itself is a 4-5 turn timeclock that didn't cost 5 mana or 3 mana and a turn to prepare it.


In pairs they are the scariest thing on the fucking planet.

No, my mother dressed as Count Chocula wielding a broadsword and a can of weed killer is the scariest thing on the planet. And stop accusing my planet of engaging in illegitimate carnal knowledge of female planets.


I will also mention that by being able to play your creatures EOT, you can save your mana to help power top to control your CB flips.

So does not playing 5-mana creatures.


One more point, Wurms cost 5. FoW costs 5. I'm running CB. Gee, coincidence? They are good, instant-ish, 4/4 trampling counterspells against the (now second to goyf) MOST COMMONLY PLAYED card in legacy. I'd say that's a huge plus in their favor.

That's why I play Spined Wurm in my Counterbalance Thresh builds.


As for removal, I'm not sure I need much. CB with cc from 1 to 5, FoW, Circular Logic seems to be good answers. For removal what would you guys consider? Smother? Bolt? Smother isn't too bad, but bolt isn't that whoopy. There's Fiery Temper, but it's probably strictly worse than Bolt.

So you scoop to a guy snuck past your counterspells?


it couldn't play more different.

Both are aggro-control decks in U/G/x that abuse Countertop and cheap threats along with disruption... it's not like one's TES and one's Islands.dec or anything.

Madness might have a place in the format, but it's gonna need to learn a thing or two from Thresh and/or abuse Survival.

[TheLion]

Maybe you are also interested in the GBR Version of Madness (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16337), which uses Destructive Flow.
Though it runs Tarmogoyf too.
In this list, i only doubt Zombie Infestation. You need to discard at least 4 cards, to make this card worth it, and those 4 cards should be madness cards.

Oonas Prowler seems as a good choice too.

[ParkerLewis]

Parker, your comment about counterspells and removal are re-goddamn-diculous as the exact same things could be said about Goyf, or any other creature without shroud, not to mention counterspells hit every spell without split second or "shroud".

...

Roman beat me to that one. As he said, when you're playing goyf, you're investing 2 mana and a card. Being answered by a one card, 2cc counterspell, or a one card, 1cc stp is somewhat fair trade.

When you're playing this absurdity of LED->Wurm, you're investing your whole hand. Being answered by a one card, 2cc counterspell, or a one card, 1cc stp is somewhat, wait, a big ol' rape in the ass.

Yeah, as I already said. I want my opponents to gently bend over and offer me their butts like that EVERY game.

Not that I'm gay, but still.

[cookies!]

I would advise you to add a cephalid coliseum if you choose to run the intuition engine. It can completely dominate the late game once it gets going, and is relatively painless if you draw it early.

The problem with madness in legacy has always been that it has only one good discard outlet. Aquamoeba is subpar, psychatog is too expensive and survival and zombie infestation are awkward to use (don't even get me started about LED). For madness to reach anything higher than tier 2, this issue should be fixed first.

[Happy Gilmore]

I would advise you to add a cephalid coliseum if you choose to run the intuition engine. It can completely dominate the late game once it gets going, and is relatively painless if you draw it early.

The problem with madness in legacy has always been that it has only one good discard outlet. Aquamoeba is subpar, psychatog is too expensive and survival and zombie infestation are awkward to use (don't even get me started about LED). For madness to reach anything higher than tier 2, this issue should be fixed first.

Welcome to the source. And you hit it right on the head, unfortunately UG madness is worse than Theshold in every respect except two. It can give every creature flying with Wonder, and every creature can be equiped with Jitte.

Anyone in Virginia will tell you of my obsession with this deck. Once a month I pull it out to test a new variant, and so far I have been able to make improvements but never create a situation where the matchups are better than threshold. My latest incarnation was fairly distant from the original deck in EXT. I removed all of its weakpoints that I felt were holding it too strongly to its roots. The first being the Removal of Circular Logic, the card is too slow, dependent on having a madness outlet, and unreliable at times. The next cut was aquameaba, who always struck me as weak and is a creature who requires more protection and investment than its worth. The next one was Arrogant Wurm, a creature that can't stand on its own any more with the huge mamoths walking around in the format. The list I've been working on casualy for tha last month is focused more on simply getting good cards in the graveyard than doing tricky things with madness.


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Wonder
1 Genesis

4 Careful Study
4 Brainstorm
3 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Jitte

4 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
4 Island
4 Wasteland

This is a far cry from the original list which had more creatures, less draw, and less disruption. I never won any game where I had to rely on an Aquameoba. Careful Study is one shot, but it gets two things done at once. It sets up the second turn, and it gets key cards in the GY. I wanted to try and create some inevitablity for some matchups using Genesis and Jitte.Madness wins because of Wonder, simple as that. However, it requires more investment in threats that truely are not the best threats in the format at the moment.

No matter what I try, I can't make it better than Threshold. So I gave up trying, at least for the time being. I hope this list may spark some new ideas. And I would love to talk about the deck some more. It is my hope that this deck can one day re-surface, but I am not getting my hopes up.

[Finn]

The first time Madness players are facing down a goyf on the other side they typically figure it out.

"2/3 goyf to my 2/2 dog. OK, I pitch Roar. Hmm 3/4 goyf to my 3/3 dog. Wait a sec..."