[Deck] Dread Stalker [Archive]

Illissius

07-16-2008, 09:22 AM

PRIMER BY BENIE BEDERIOS

A: Deck lists

Original list by Illissius (Sideboard by Roodmistah)

//LANDS
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//CREATURES
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker

//OTHER
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vision Charm
edit: also, 4 Force of Will

//SIDEBOARD
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle

UBg by Klaus

//LANDS
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

//CREATURES
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
3 Tarmogoyf

//OTHER
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Duress
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Trickbind
2 Vision Charm

//SIDEBOARD
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Dark Confidant
2 Extirpate
1 Hydroblast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Tormod's Crypt

UB list by Benie Bederios

//LANDS
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

//CREATURES
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

//OTHER
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Predict
4 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vision Charm

//SIDEBOARD
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Dark Confidant
3 Extirpate
3 Winter Orb
3 Wipe Away

B: Strategic Overview

DreadStalker is an aggro-control deck with the emphasise on aggro. It wants to keep an opponent of balance with cheap disruptions and finish the game fast with very large creatures. Against aggro, control and aggro-control it likes to be the beat down before aggro can overwhelm or control and aggro-control get in control. Against storm-combo it keeps disruption pieces back and wait for the right cards to win. Because the type of control this deck doesn't want to go in to control mode; with control cards that cost life or become dead late game. The deck can't hold this position for long.

C: Tactical Overview

Dread Stalker has got multiple to disrupt an opponent and get a large creature into play. In the early turns this deck wants to disrupt an opponent or play a large creature backed up with counter magic. Going for disruption, keep mana open for Stifle and try to Thoughtseize as soon as possible (turn 1, or when you keep mana open for Stifle turn 2). If you go for the second way, play cantrips to find the creatures and counters. Game 1 against an unknown opponent valuate your hand and determine which tactic would be the most optimal. The cantrips let you switch between tactics.

D: Card selection

Beats

Mandatory
Phyrexian Dreadnought: It is called DreadStalker for a reason. Of course you could play Dread (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=140168), but I don't think it will work that well.
Tombstalker: Same story. It is two turns slower than Nought, but quite hard to remove. Evasion helps too.

Other cards
Tarmogoyf: Doesn't work to well with Tombstalker, but it's manageable. It's a quite fast clock without evasion. You can play a Dreadnought without Stifle or use Vision Charm to let it grow fast.

Cards that sneak Nought into play

Mandatory
Stifle: A useful card on itself and the easiest combo with Dreadnought. Stops fetch lands, Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives. It's also nice against Maze of Ith.
Vision Charm: two of the three abilities are used the most. The first sneaks in Nought and protect it from removal. When you use it to play Dreadnought, it is safe for a complete turn and you can protect it next turn against sorcery speed removal and you can protect with all your lands untapped. The second ability allows quick Tombstalkers and messes with top deck-tutors. The third ability can be used to stop an opponent to play a sorcery speed removal spell, like Wrath of God, Vindicate or Oblivion Ring.

Other cards
Trickbind: Same as stifle but also stops Sensei Divining Top for a complete turn and is almost uncounterable for one mana more.

Counters

Mandatory
Force of Will: The deck plays enough blue and it protects the creatures for free. Very much an auto include.
Daze: Another free counter. With Stifle and Wasteland (and SB Winter Orb) you can extend its usability.

Other cards
Spell Snare: A cheap-counter a lot card. It's a pity it doesn't target Swords to Plowshare

Other control

Mandatory
Thoughtseize: For one black mana and two lives it eats away a card from your opponents’ hand, and gives you knowledge of his business.
Wasteland: Some people dropped it, but coupled with Stifle it can hamper control and Threshold. It also makes Daze better.

Other cards
Snuff Out: Free cards are good. With the clock this deck can produce 4 lives hardly matters. Also stopping a 4/5 Goyf is never a bad thing.
Engineered Explosives: This can have some trouble with Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. Engineered Explosive can deal with this and sweeps tokens and small critters (Nimble Mongoose). It is quite mana hungry though.
Pernicious Deed: A more powerful, more expensive Engineered Explosives. Don't try this card MD with only 18 lands, because it's also in a splash colour.
Smother: Quite cheap and it can hit black creatures. Most of the annoying creatures cost less than 3 anyway.
Diabolic Edict: Do you hate Nimble Mongoose and Morphling? Here is your answer. It's bad against aggro though.

Cantrips/draw

Mandatory
Brainstorm: You play blue, no chalice and a lot of fetches. Shouldn't be hard to see why this card is good. It fills the graveyard for Tombstalker too.
Ponder: additional cantrip, not as good as Brainstorm, but the build in shuffle effect is nice. It fills the graveyard for Tombstalker too.

Other cards
Sensei's Divining Top: not really a cantrip, but helps smooth out the draws.
Predict: Instant speed card advantage that fools with top deck tutors and Counterbalance. Also fills the graveyard for Tombstalker.
Dark Confidant: Because it's only a 2/1 it isn't a really good beater. It can be a much damaging with Tombstalker, Force of Will and Snuff Out. It draws removal away from the big men though.

Manabase
Just play at least 18 cards and depending on the play style it can go up to 21 lands.

Sideboard
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast: Burn is quite even before board and with Blasts it becomes favourable. Also works nice against Goblins and is decent against Dragon Stompy.
Dark Confidant: control hates it. Additional threat and gives you a weapon in the attrition war.
Extirpate: quite good against control again. Deal with there removal or (draw) engine. It's sometimes hard to get it into the yard.

The rest is quite open. I guess decent players can figure out a SB for there Meta

Splashes
Red doesn't give much. Artifact removal (although Spree is quite weak when red is a secondary colour). Fling could be played too and of course Red Elemental Blast when needed.

Green is possibly the best splash. Gives Goyf and Krosan Grip. Deed could be played to in mana heavier versions.

White gives quite some options against control in Armageddon and Meddling Mage. Also gives the best removal spell in the game.

E: Matchups

Considering list Benie Bederios

Aggro-Loam

Chalice at 1 hurts. Tombstalker can shrink Loam's creatures and your removal hurts them. Play around Wasteland and you should win. Post-board Loam gets Krosan Grip which hurts quite a lot. You get Extirpate to hamper the Loam-Engine and/or stop there creatures.

Boarding: -3 Predict, -2 Ponder, + 3 Thoughtseize, +2 Wipe Away

Vial Goblins

The decks are about even in speed. You have better control against them, than they got against you. If you can hamper them a quick Dreadnought can seal the deal. Beware of Warren Weirding though. Post-board your get Red Elemental Blast to make the matchup a little better. Krosan Grip can hurt though, if they play it.

Boarding: -1 Daze, -1 Predict, -1 Ponder, +3 Blue Elemental Blast

UWx Landstill

Though matchup. They have a strong mana base and LOTS of ways to deal with your threats. Sometimes it's possible to punish there mana base or win with an early creature. Post Winter Orb and Pate comes in, making the matchup at least winnable, but still not nice.

Boarding -4 Snuff Out, -1 Ponder, -1 Vision Charm, + 3 Extirpate, +3 Winter Orb

UGw Threshold

Quite winnable. The decks are more or less the same, only your mana base is stronger and have bigger finishers. Try to attack there mana base and it should be fine. Post-board Thresh gets Krosan Grip to worry about. Tombstalker is safe though as long as you can keep Enforcer of the table.

Boarding -2 Predict, +2 Extirpate

UGr Threshold

The easies of the three, because the lack of removal (against you) and the lack of Counterbalance. DreadStalkers mana base is a little stronger. Post-board it gets a little worse due to Krosan Grip.

Boarding none

Epic Painter

Quite winnable. The mana base is weak and there are tons of ways to stop or hamper the combo. MD there is very little that can stop a Dreadnought or Stalker. Post board is a little difficult. If Epic Painter doesn't board in the man-plan, Extirpates are golden. If they do, Wipe Away, or no boarding at all is better.

Boarding -1 Daze, -1 Predict- 1 Ponder, +3 Extirpate

ORIGINAL POST

Alright, I originally posted this in the Dreadstill thread because the people there were going through a phase where they were discussing the possibility of dropping Standstills; now, they're going through a phase where they've decided anything without Standstill belongs in a different thread, and I've gotten multiple requests to start a new thread for this deck, by virtue of its great and tremendous potential, and though I don't like starting threads for decks I haven't played a single game with, in this case I shall bend to the People's will, so here it is.

Maindeck:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard:

Not very much fucking clue

The initial idea was that Vision Charm is another way to combo with Dreadnought, and Vision Charm plus fetchland equals Tombstalker on turn two.

From the original post:

Now this build is a whole lot more aggressive and less controllish than builds with Standstills and Countertop; it's closer to something like Eva Green. This is intentional.

The biggest potential flaw of the deck: only 8 threats, and no way to refill. Then again, there are Threshold builds which don't play many more than this, so who knows. The deck is actually pretty similar to the U/G Threshold builds with Stifle and Wasteland, except running Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and nothing at all instead of Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, and 2-4 other creatures.

What I really have no idea how to build is the sideboard. The trouble, basically, is that Dreadnought is vulnerable to so many different kinds of removal. Do you double down, try to anticipate what kind of removal they have and will be bringing in, and then try to protect your Dreadnoughts through the barrage? Or do you board out Dreadnoughts and Vision Charm to invalidate their removal, and bring in other threats and things more difficult to deal with? And here's where the trouble comes in: Phyrexian Dreadnought is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, to Engineered Explosives, and to Krosan Grip, meaning they will be keeping or bringing all of those cards in. If they have further creature removal in the board, they will bring it in. And it is highly difficult to find worthy threats who are vulnerable to none of these. It was suggested in the Dreadstill thread that Countertop could be sideboarded, but if they are bringing in their Grips anyways, then what's the point? One idea is to invalidate only their artifact destruction while bringing in more plain old creatures to try and overload their Swords, but if they've stocked up on other creature removal to go with it, you're still fucked. Or do you just fuck it and play hosers?

Anyways. A list of sideboard options I've considered:

Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre
Extirpate

Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives

Engineered Plague
Hydroblast
Dystopia
Submerge

Mind Harness
Threads of Disloyalty
Vedalken Shackles

Dark Confidant
Hypnotic Specter
Jace Beleren

Tundra +
Meddling Mage
Swords to Plowshares

Tropical Island +
Pernicious Deed
Tarmogoyf
Krosan Grip

Volcanic Island +
Pyroclasm

more basic lands +
Back to Basics

Happy Gilmore

07-16-2008, 09:40 AM

Looks very very similar to T1 solution in some respects. I keep thinking back to that deck the Japanese player played at worlds that used an enlightened tutor toolbox and Stalker. Maybe try to merge the two concepts?

Slag

07-16-2008, 11:05 AM

If a lack of threats is a problem, you could pop in a couple of bitterblossoms, or even cut the wastelands for factories. I know how good stifle/waste is, but uncounterable mongoose-munchers are always handy.
Going in the other direction, it might not be that crazy in a deck like this to have extirpate in the main. It works well with thoughtseize for killing swords and grips, and even extirpating nonbasics to combo with stifle and wasteland. I suppose the big problem with that is the slot it would replace would probably have to be Snuff Out, which is just special against thresh and in the dreadnought mirror.

Illissius

07-16-2008, 12:12 PM

Looks very very similar to T1 solution in some respects.
Sullivan Solution? Far as I can tell, the similarity is that they're both U/B decks with Stifle and Wasteland. SS seems much more controllish to me.

I keep thinking back to that deck the Japanese player played at worlds that used an enlightened tutor toolbox and Stalker. Maybe try to merge the two concepts?
This one (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12319)? It's... interesting. I suspect if you tried to add Dreadnoughts and Vision Charms to it, you'd end up with not much room left for business spells.

If a lack of threats is a problem, you could pop in a couple of bitterblossoms
This is not a bad idea; Bitterblossom is relatively difficult to deal with game one. I'd considered it before, but only for the sideboard, where it ran into the aforementioned problem called "fuck me, they're bringing in Grips anyways". Still, I'd prefer something that can kill the opponent quickly, rather than an attrition card like Blossom.

Going in the other direction, it might not be that crazy in a deck like this to have extirpate in the main. It works well with thoughtseize for killing swords and grips
Interesting idea. Maybe in a black based version of the deck which also ran Duress (and Bitterblossom and Therapies?). I've also considered splashing for Meddling Mage, because some decks run a set of Swords as their only removal, so you play Mage naming it and problem solved.

How many lands do people think the deck needs? I guessed 20 because you run Wastelands and stuff, but upon reflection the curve isn't actually much, if at all, higher than Threshold, which runs 18 lands in the Wasteland builds -- though also a bit more cantrips than this deck. Cutting a pair of lands would free up the room for another two threats, once I figure out what I want them to be.

Rood

07-16-2008, 12:23 PM

My initial thoughts for a board:

4x BEB
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth
4x Engineered Plague

Happy Gilmore

07-16-2008, 12:24 PM

Sullivan Solution? Far as I can tell, the similarity is that they're both U/B decks with Stifle and Wasteland. SS seems much more controllish to me.

This one (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12319)? It's... interesting. I suspect if you tried to add Dreadnoughts and Vision Charms to it, you'd end up with not much room left for business spells.

This is not a bad idea; Bitterblossom is relatively difficult to deal with game one. I'd considered it before, but only for the sideboard, where it ran into the aforementioned problem called "fuck me, they're bringing in Grips anyways". Still, I'd prefer something that can kill the opponent quickly, rather than an attrition card like Blossom.

Interesting idea. Maybe in a black based version of the deck which also ran Duress (and Bitterblossom and Therapies?). I've also considered splashing for Meddling Mage, because some decks run a set of Swords as their only removal, so you play Mage naming it and problem solved.

How many lands do people think the deck needs? I guessed 20 because you run Wastelands and stuff, but upon reflection the curve isn't actually much, if at all, higher than Threshold, which runs 18 lands in the Wasteland builds -- though also a bit more cantrips than this deck. Cutting a pair of lands would free up the room for another two threats, once I figure out what I want them to be.

Not a chance, Vision charm is too conditional to be included in any deck I would play. All I did was add trinket mage so that when I had the stifle I could seach up Nought and use it. Stifle nought is much more of a secondary plan in the build I wrote up.

Slag

07-16-2008, 12:38 PM

My initial thoughts for a board:

4x BEB
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth
4x Engineered Plague

This is very close to what I would suggest in the board. Pithing needle is good for shutting down factory/monastery shenanigans, as well as everything else it's good for, and I'll stop packing engineered plague in my sideboards the day I personally devour the last goblin lackey. I've found that more aggressive builds of dreadnought go about 50/50 with goblins, based on who has the best opener, but engineered plague gives the deck a huge boost post board.

The curve is very good, so you have some leeway with lands. I personally tend to err on the side of too many, because I've had to cast tombstalker with less than a full discount. I think as long as you have access to a blue and two black at any given time you're all right.

nitewolf9

07-16-2008, 01:04 PM

This list is almost identical to a list me and Deep6er have been playing off and on. I would recommend trying out sinkhole. It is very good in a shell like this. You can probably live without ponder. I'm not sure about vision charm, but it could be alright. In lieu of sinkhole hymn to tourach might also be good.

Edit: By the way, our list also ran 4 extirpates main. :) The idea was massive mana denial coupled with hard to deal with threats that kill you quickly.

Clark Kant

07-16-2008, 02:11 PM

I'll just port over my reply to when you posted this list the first time.

Stalker is strong as it's rather easy to cast Stalker without Vision Charm with all the other fast ways to fill the yard. But if you have Vision Charms to spare and no Dreadnoughts in sight. All three of Vision Charm's abilities have fantastic synergy with both Stalker and Dreadnought. It's easy to fill the yard, so if your problem is lack of black sources, the third ability of Vision Charm comes in very handy too.

Vision Charm/phasing is a much cooler way to cast Dreadnought than Trickbind. By phasing it out in response to the sac trigger, you protect it from all removal/bounce till your next turn when it loses it's summoning sickness. Essentially it has built in immunity to all sorcery speed removal including wrath effects. And since when it phases back, all your land is untapped, you are better equipped to protect the card as well whether you do so by running counterspells, or because you can utilize counterbalance, or just because you had one more draw..

And I love the fact that you can phase out Dreadnought in response to StP or Oblivion Ring or any other removal or bounce spell to protect it.

I've always felt that Tombstalker is a far more resilient and all around better threat than Goyf in the current meta. The reason for this is here. There are atleast 14 extremely commonly played spells that Goyf is poor versus that Tombstalker outright ignores and pretty much none that go the otherway around.

You could honestly replace Wasteland with Factories and replace some Ponder and a Daze with Standstill and end up with a very Dreadstill like deck.

Because lets face it, Standstill is an incredibly powerful card.

I think Factories work really well since they serve as 3/3 blockers when needed, to deter Mongooses and such. And Standstill is clearly a very strong card combined with overpowered threats like Stalker or Dreadnought.

Alfred

07-16-2008, 02:22 PM

Extirpate also works pretty well with Vision Charm as well.

Vision Charm can also be used as an Abeyance versus non-FoW counters. You play it in your first main phase, switching islands to Swamps or something. If they float mana, go through the combat phase and cast what you need to on your second main phase.

It also "counters" High Tide.

FoolofaTook

07-16-2008, 04:10 PM

With 8 stifle effects for the dreadnoughts this deck really wants Academy Ruins in it somehow. It probably also wants 1 maindeck Engineered Explosives and at least 1 Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard.

Clark Kant

07-16-2008, 08:04 PM

It also "counters" High Tide.

It's been a loooong time since I've played versus high tide. You're sure that works right, but only if they don't have a second high tide in hand.

FoolofaTook

07-16-2008, 09:08 PM

One other thing I noticed is that using only 4 Force of Will and 4 Daze as counters makes Phyrexian Dreadnought a risky play from the midgame on. I've lost a couple of games to topdecked Threads of Disloyalty when I was running Stiflenought and going low on counters.

I actually directly lost a game and match to this in the last tourney I played in. The guy was running SDT in a MUC and he had Threads in the top 3 virtually the entire game. I Cabal Therapied to sweep his hand of his bounce and flashed it back sacing a Trinket Mage to get his FoW. I laid out Dreadnought and he just SDT'd and got the Threads and killed me with my own fatty. I was holding Daze, having used 3 FoW earlier in the facepalming over Counterbalance. I couldn't wait for the fourth FoW to show because we were 1-1 late in the match and he was just as likely to draw his third Counterbalance, effectively ending the game, as I was to draw my fourth Force of Will.

Slag

07-16-2008, 09:20 PM

On the plus side, the vision charms will actually help with that, as you can phase out the dreadnought in response to any removal that can be responded to and still be ready to attack the next turn.

FoolofaTook

07-16-2008, 10:01 PM

On the plus side, the vision charms will actually help with that, as you can phase out the dreadnought in response to any removal that can be responded to and still be ready to attack the next turn.

Yeah the Vision Charms will help but Counterbalance or a few more hard counters is probably a surer bet. Counterbalance can even stop a Wipe Away or Krosan Grip if you have planned well in advance, as my opponent had there.

Elfrago

07-17-2008, 06:11 AM

A few things:

Are you sure thet vision charm is better than Trickbind? While vision could also be used to save a Tombstalker (but it only fears Swords), Trickbind complements the mana-denial strategy and Split Second sometimes really helps.
Playing Dreadstill I've found trickbind really useful in certain metchups (for example vs Landstill).

Snuff Out seems out of place. I can see it being useful in two different occasions:
1) Clearing the way for a fast Dreadnought or Stalker. This is where the tempo part of Snuff Out is useful. But your dudes can already stomp over whathever places beetwen them and the opponent, or...

2)Acting as a standard removal spell to stay alive vs aggro decks until Stalker or Naught arrives. But it's life loss could be really a problem in those situations (especially combined with Thoughtseize).

xsockmonkeyx

07-17-2008, 06:24 AM

While vision could also be used to save a Tombstalker (but it only fears Swords), Trickbind complements the mana-denial strategy and Split Second sometimes really helps.

Name: Vision Charm
Set & Rarity: Visions common
Printings: Visions (Common)
Cost: Blue Mana
Card Type: Instant
P/T:
Rules Text (Oracle): Choose one - Target artifact phases out; or target player puts the top four cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard; or choose a land type and a basic land type, and each land of the first chosen type becomes the second chosen type until end of turn.

I think you meant Dreadnaught, right?

Elfrago

07-17-2008, 06:59 AM

I thought you could phase out a creature.
Another good reason to run trickbind.

luka66_6

07-17-2008, 07:15 AM

Charm can save you for a turn from painter combo...
well so does trickbind. Can we run them both?

Slag

07-17-2008, 10:09 AM

On further review, I'd say that the ability to run 4 snuff outs is one of the deck's big strengths. It's really the deck's best defensive card. Chances are good that anything you kill would have smacked you for 4 life or greater anyway (goyf, dreadnought, pit dragon), so the life loss is a fair trade. In addition, the huge clock in this deck goes a long way to ensuring that you win in a couple of turns, so 4 life probably won't kill you. And don't forget, it's not unreasonable to hardcast it. If you get to the point in the game where the life loss would matter, you could probably hardcast it anyway.

I can't really demean anyone for running trickbind over vision charm, but in addition to the excellent ideas and uses for vision charm other folks have pointed out (protection, synergy with stalker, land-changing anctics), I'd add that that one colorless mana can really make a difference. Having an active dreadnought on turn three versus turn four might make or break a game. But hey, if your testing says that split second is better than cheap utility, have at it.

Illissius

07-17-2008, 12:43 PM

Are you sure thet vision charm is better than Trickbind? While vision could also be used to save a Tombstalker (but it only fears Swords), Trickbind complements the mana-denial strategy and Split Second sometimes really helps.

I'm not sure whether you're not mentioning the obvious because it's obvious or because you actually didn't notice, but Vision Charm lets you accelerate Tombstalker. By a whole fucking lot.

Otherwise, I'm just giving my rationale for including certain cards in this first draft of the deck and not including others, but it's not like I have veto power over what anyone else chooses to do with it. Feel free to take it in whatever direction you like and report the results.

Alfred

07-17-2008, 01:46 PM

It's been a loooong time since I've played versus high tide. You're sure that works right, but only if they don't have a second high tide in hand.

That's the same thing as if you countered it: hope they don't have another High Tide. It also wastes the first one, which is a plus.

SuckerPunch

09-06-2008, 04:10 AM

Wasteland kind of sucks here. You always need atleast BB to cast Tombstalker. There are barely any colorless costs in the cc of any of the cards. More colored lands means you can play more cantrips. So I'm not playing Wasteland.

I'm trying out this list for this deck...

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Snuff Out
3 Duress (Possibly Lightning Greaves)
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Undergroun Sea

What do you think of the list?

I'm wondering if Lightning Greaves as a way to protect my threats and give them all haste has potential.

But what do YOU think?

Is Duress just straight up better than Lightning Greaves at protecting your threats from removal, all while being cheaper to cast and feeding the yard?

Should the deck play Phyrexian Negator for more beatdown?

Is Lightning Greaves too sucky of a card for this deck?

Is 18 lands too low even with a curve so low and 8 cantrips?

BreathWeapon

09-06-2008, 07:09 PM

I've had reasonable success with the following,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

SB

4 Tombstalker
4 Meddling Mage
4 Yixlid Jailor
1 Tormod's Crypt

Concentrating on Phyrexian Dreadnought and Counterbalance game 1 and then bringing Tombstalker and Meddling Mage off the bench is a solid plan.

SuckerPunch

09-06-2008, 10:41 PM

Tombstalker is half the reason to play Vision Charm. This deck is too low on threats as is. That's why I'm trying out Negator.

Cutting Tombstalker is a big no no imho.

I mean, the name of the deck is Dread Stalker for a reason. Tombstalker wins games.

SuckerPunch

09-07-2008, 02:41 AM

Okay, time to post my thoughts.

1.) The DECK FREAKING ROCKS. It's seriously a house. Granted, I played it versus a bunch of noobs playing random ass decks. But I seriously won like 90% of the games I played. By playing both Duress and Thoughtseize, and using Vision Charms to protect your Dreadnought and both FoW and Daze on top of that to make sure your threats resolve, it becomes damn near impossible for your opponent to take out your threats. And they win so freaking fast.

2.) Wasteland doesn't belong. Your threats are so freaking big and fast that the only cards you care about dealing with are combo and cards that can take out your threats (StP, FoW etc). Duress, Thoughtseize, FoW and Daze all do that. Wasteland doesn't. But cutting Wastelands, you can more reliably get BB for Tombstalker, all while cutting back on your land count and making room for Duress.

3.) Even 18 lands seems to be too much. With all the cantrips, and the fact that every single card in the deck with the exception of Tombstalker is either free to cast or has a cc of 1, I think the deck could possibly go down to as little as 16 lands and fare just fine. 17 seems ideal. But maybe 18 is right and I just randomly got mana flooded (though I doubt I lost a single game due to mana flooding).

4.) Why the hell didn't this deck ever take off? Even the opening post's list was close to perfect if it just cut the useless Wastelands for Duress. Yes, the deck does autolose to a turn one Chalice at 1 while you are on the draw and don't have a FoW. But assuming you're on the play, you also get Daze, Duress and Thoughtseize to make sure that doesn't happen.

Hanni

09-07-2008, 02:52 AM

3.) Why the hell didn't this deck ever take off? Even the opening post's list was close to perfect if it just cut the useless Wastelands for Duress. Yes, the deck does autolose to a turn one Chalice at 1 while you are on the draw and don't have a FoW. But assuming you're on the play, you also get Daze, Duress and Thoughtseize to make sure that doesn't happen.

Plus there's also postboard, where you get EE. If Chalice/Counterbalance is prevalent in a particular metagame, I'd recommend maindeck EE. Otherwise, like you said, you should be fine.

A 2-of Cunning Wish could also be good for that as well without running EE maindeck by running a tight compact toolbox of...

1 Trickbind
1 Echoing Truth/Wipe Away
1 Extirpate
1 Ghastly Demise/Diabolic Edict
1 Misdirection

... and then whatever else you wanna toss in there.

Not saying I'd run Cunning Wish in the deck, just saying that if Chalice/Counterbalance is plaguing the meta, it's an option. However, if that were the case, I'd probably play a different deck anyway.

I have no clue why Dreadstalker doesn't see more play. The deck is really good.

On an unrelated note, I'd really like to see a Haunting Echoes somewhere in the 75 (probably sideboard). With only 17 mana sources, hitting 3BB is going to take a long time but the card is intended for the control matchup where the games go long anyway, or against multiple Extirpates on Nought/Stalker, where you have no other option but to wait (as I cannot think of any better alternate win conditions).

SuckerPunch

09-07-2008, 03:01 AM

All those cards are too narrow imho.

I already play Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze and FoW. That is 15 cards, a full fourth of the deck devoted to either free or 1cc cards that simultanously protect your threats from StP AND proactively stop problem cards like Chalice, Counterbalance and such before your opponent gets a chance to play them.

I think that even Snuff Out should be cut for a 4th Duress and 2x Cabal Therapy because the versatility these cards provide in letting you answer pretty much everything is fantastic.

I seriously never cared about an opponents Goyf enough to want a Snuff Out over a discard spell or countermagic to protect my bigger and faster threat (and make sure it resolves).

The only thing I would want versus the control matchup is Ancestral Visions.

I've played control decks (MUC and such), and this decks takes the traditional wisdom (aggro beats control) to new heights. You play way more ways to stop their countermagic than they play actual countermagic.

Hanni

09-07-2008, 04:00 AM

Here's what my Dreadstalker looks like...

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [IA] Island (2)
2 [6E] Swamp (2)
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [U] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [7E] Duress
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed

The green splash is definitely worth a little instability to the manabase. Maindeck Deed is extremely strong, while postboard Grips are a pretty much mandatory for this deck.

Pernicious Deed goes a long way towards answering any problematic permanents that slip through the countermagic/discard. The ability to remove turn 1 Chalices or Counterbalances that get through can be mean a win when you would have otherwise lost. Deed brings you back from behind and that's why I think it's inclusion in the deck is very strong. Tombstalker and Shriekmaw are both completely resillient to Deed, which almost make it asymetrical. If you have a Dreadnought on the table, there is absolutely no need to pop a Deed in almost any situation, so they don't even conflict.

If you ask me, Deed + Tombstalker is infinitely better than WoG + Factory. Aside from that fact that you don't get Standstill, which is a the reason why you'd play Landstill, the win conditions are much better in this "control" deck.

You don't need additional removal beyond Deed, because in a way, the Dreadnoughts are creature removal spells. Plus you already have 1 Shriekmaw.

Shriekmaw is a very nice alternate win condition. You really want at least 3 win conditions in case of Extirpate. Shriekmaw isn't irrelevant when you don't need it as a beater because you can pay 1B and destroy a creature instead. Even with only 7 lands, the deck has 8 cantrips and can eventually ramp up to 5 mana. You won't need to rely on Shriekmaw as a win condition very often. An evasive 3/2 is pretty solid, especially when it destroys a creature when it comes into play. Killing Tarmogoyf and getting a Shriekmaw is a really strong 2-for-1 trade.

Krosan Grip answers things you cannot play effectively through like a resolved Counterbalance. That's very important.

The Tarmogoyf's in the board come in against decks packing Extirpate or against combo decks where you want a (more consistent) faster clock.

HOWEVER, this deck can drop the board control element of Deed and instead drop the Shriekmaw and run 4 Tarmogoyf. Personally, I don't think Tarmogoyf > Deed in this deck. Maybe it's just me, but Tarmogoyf still suffers from resolved Counterbalances as well as things like Chalice, Humility, and a ton of other nasty stuff. However, I'm sure alot more people would prefer to run 4 Tarmogoyf and I'm sure the deck is still amazing with Tarmogoyf instead of Deed.

SuckerPunch

09-07-2008, 04:41 AM

I don't understand what exactly concerns you enough to think Deed or Krosan Grip postboard is needed.

Like I said, on top of FoW, you have Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze and now Cabal Therapy as well (I cut the 3 Snuff Out for the 4th Thoughtseize and 2 Cabal Therapy).

All those cards are more than enough to ensure that problem cards don't resolve in the first place.

A turn one resolved Chalice when you're on the play can be bad, yes, that's the one thing you can't do a thing about if you don't have a FoW handy, but for that to occur...

1. You have to be on the play.

2. You dont' have a FoW in hand.

3. Your opponent plays a deck with both Chalice and 2 manalands or acceleration.

4. Your opponent has both a Chalice and a 2 mana land in the opening hand.

The odds of all that happening is probably under 1%.

Counterbalance and such pretty much never hit turn one.

As long as you get a single turn, a Duress, Thoughseize, Cabal Therapy or Daze will deal with any and every possible problem card out there. And they're not even needed if you have a FoW in hand.

If you really want insurance incase a problem permanent does resolve, Rushing River is a great option. You odn't have to splash a color. It buys you tempo by bouncing back two cards, and letting you use your Duress to then discard the problem one.

But insurance is not needed.

The deck fares just fine without splashing any more colors imo. Though the green splash just for goyf is intriguing. Since the one and only problem I've seen with the deck is that it only plays 8 threats (though it seems to have an endless number of ways to protect them).

Hanni

09-07-2008, 05:39 AM

Daze doesn't ensure that Counterbalance or Tarmogoyf are answered and FoW/Thoughtseize/Duress aren't always going to hit everything. Sometimes, your two card combo win conditions get countered even with all of your disruption, sometimes you don't find them right away. Discard does nothing to topdecked answers/threats.

I see no reason to not run Deed in here, even if it wasn't needed because of the countermagic/discard. It's just so synergistic with your win conditions that it's almost like playing Wrath God and Mishra's Factory; you clean the board and your threats don't die. Tombstalker is good against Tarmogoyf; Tombstalker is even better when you Deed away Tarmogoyf(s). You can't rely on Dreadnought to win you every game.

The other major factor for Deed is that it brings you back from behind. The only other card that does that for you is Dreadnought and that is a disruptable 2 card combo that bites it to Counterbalance/Chalice, which Pernicious Deed just happens to blow up.

You don't have to believe me or like the green splash, I'm just explaining my reason for it. Personally I feel that there is absolutely no reason to not splash green, but that just my opinion. Take it as you will.

EDIT: Why isn't this deck in the Established Forum? Should I PM an admin or something?

Nihil Credo

09-07-2008, 06:07 AM

EDIT: Why isn't this deck in the Established Forum

For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.

The deck is still in the development phase: fundamental card choices, building a sideboard, etc... I've played with it and I'd say it's better than 98% of the other stuff in N&D, but it's still not ready for Established.

BreathWeapon

09-07-2008, 10:34 AM

What's the reasoning behind not MDing Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top in a deck whose curve is 2?

Splashing Green for Pernicious Deed in a Tombstalker/Phyrexian Dreadnought deck just seems really bad, you're not running Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip isn't doing anything Vindicate or Engineered Explosives couldn't do.

Koala

09-08-2008, 09:14 AM

(I posted it a week ago)
I have been testing a list here on Brazil, and a i finally found a good list.I made i Top 2 on a 70 players champ, and a Top4 on a 30 Good players champ with this list. I already try to use counterbalance, standstill or even grinder, but it doesn't work so well. I made that list thinking about the number of aggro decks (i mean goyf) and combo decks here in Brazil. Here it goes:

UGBide

3 Trinket Mage
3 DreadNought
4 Stifle
2 Tombstalker
4 Goyf
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 E.Explosives
2 Sensei Top
4 B.Storm
1 Wipe away
3 Duress
3 Smother
1 Pernicious Deed

19 lands + 1 academy ruins

SB

2 P.Deed
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trick bind
1 T.Mage
1 Dread nought
1 E.Truth
X xxxxxxx

*:

1 - i really hated to use counterbalance.Really. The best effort that i did to my counterbalances was remove it out of the game (fow, obvious)

2 - Goyf and Nought i haven't explain why, but tombstalker it's the guts to win. Tombstalker(my sweet Batman) don't care for smother or deeds

3 - Goblins is becomig a "little" problem to me. My goyfs didn't do anything after 3 turn passed..The only way to win the match is survive enough to my batman's attack 4 time or do a Nought/Stifle turn 2 or 3...I got no idea what i have to do...Help????

4 - 2 Trickbind,1 T.Mage,1 Dreadnought in SB: Yes, Aggro kills

What do you think?

SuckerPunch

09-08-2008, 10:43 AM

Before reaching that list, did you try out what I posted...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=270614&postcount=23

It's a much faster list that runs on a much lower curve and plays just as much fat as your list.

BreathWeapon

09-08-2008, 02:49 PM

Is no one else splashing /w for Meddling Mage? Being able to name Krosan Grip is ridiculously good when you're running both Phyrexian Dreadnought and Counterbalance. /w has Hoof Prints of the Stag, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage, Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate/Oblivion Ring and Enlightened Tutor, that's more options in either /r or /g even tho' Krosan Grip and Tarmogoyf's power levels are unmatched.

I'm still not seeing the point of MD Tombstalkers, just concentrating on either Phyrexian Dreadnought or Counterbalance seems to be enough game 1.

SuckerPunch

09-08-2008, 06:34 PM

BreathWeapon

09-08-2008, 09:29 PM

Did you actually try out Tombstalker before saying that?

The point of MD Tombstalker becomes blatantly obvious the instant that you pick up the list posted in the opening post (-3 Wasteland, -1 Snuff Out, +4 Duress).

This is a lightning fast deck. Unfortunately, you won't see Dreadnought early on every game. Having a second huge beater that's just as broken wih Vision Charm and significantly more resilent than Dreadnought (due to it's color and casting cost), is nuts.

If you want to play a slow version with Top, Counterbalance and Meddling Mage, please head on over to the Dreadstill thread where they already pretty much optimized such a version.

I have the same relative threat density and a faster clock, and when I SB in Tombstalker, it's only to diversify my threats against MD board removal and SB artifact/enchantment removal. Yes, Tombstalker is good, but I don't see what need he's filling when Enlightened Tutor pulls the deck together just as well.

Edit: I was running Dreadnoughts before any one else on this site, lay off the character attacks.

Hanni

09-09-2008, 12:56 AM

You have to actually play DreadStalker to understand why we play Tombstalker.

Turn 2 Tombstalker is very hard to answer or race. Even if the opponent eventually has two 4/5 Tarmogoyf's and can race, Tombstalker easily sits back on defense until the deck draws into Pernicious Deed or Dreadnought/Stifle and wipes the board or pushes through.

Tombstalker also has better synergy with Pernicious Deed, which is why I run it over CounterTop. 8 countermagic/8 discard is more tempo-oriented than Counterbalance and is why I think it is stronger in a DreadStalker shell; you don't need to protect Dreadnought for more than a few turns.

U/B/g is more aggro/control oriented than versions without additional aggro or Meddling Mage. While not strictly better, it's the playstyle I'd prefer to take with this deck.

Benie Bederios

09-10-2008, 06:19 AM

Nice deck, I tested the deck in the opening post( only 4-off's is so sexy) and it is the deck I was looking for, for a long time. It plays like Gro-a-Tog in Vintage mixed with Eva Green. Every card is so well chosen. Most matchups are quite winnable, tested against Belcher, Thresh, Landstill, Ichorid and Aggro-Loam.

I don't have testing result yet( most times it was just 1 match, except Landstill). I won against Belcher just slow roll in the beginning and keep mana open for Stifle and you're in good shape(2-0). Thresh was about even(2-1). Snuff Out where the best cards in the deck in this matchup and I wouldn't switch those. Ichorid is quite hard, but quite winnable(1-2). There are quite some cute tricks like playing a Dreadnought to kill Bridges. They can go fast though, through your counters and Extirpate isn't that good against them. Aggro-Loam is winnable when you start fast(2-1). They have no way to deal with your creatures in the early turns, but there creatures can grow quite fast.

The matchup where I really encountered problems was UWb Landsstill( 1-2, 0-2, 2-1, 0-2) They just control the game in the early turns, if your opponent has FoW and StP it is really though. Sometimes I could screw them out of the game with Stifle+Wasteland, but there manabase is to solid too really stop them, opposed to the 4 color version.

Any tips for the control-matchup?

About splashing green. Why for Pernicious Deed and not Tarmogoyf MD? This deck want's to win fast, not try to control the board, by adding 3 sweepers. Goyf is another big beater that can win the game fast, quite good with Charm and 2 CC means EE has to fire twice to sweep your board. Adding Deed to this deck is like adding Deed to Eva Green or UBg Thresh or adding Wrath of God to UGw Thresh. It isn't syenergic with the rest of the deck.

BB
BB

Illissius

09-10-2008, 07:44 AM

I'm glad everyone likes the deck. Ironically, I'm probably the one in the thread who has played it the least.

I don't think the deck is really Dreadstalker without Tombstalkers in it, but I'm not about to force BreathWeapon to make a new thread just because he swapped one card, so whatever. I do think the "would I play this card in Eva Green?" / "would I play this card in Thrash?" test should be applied to most potential inclusions -- the deck is basically a hybrid of Eva Green and Thrash with Dreadnoughts thrown in. If you wouldn't include the card in either of them (disregarding color constraints), that's a pretty good sign that it doesn't belong here either.

Benie: Thanks for posting your results. Did you also try testing against :b::g: Landstill and/or It's The Fear? At least their mana should be more vulnerable. UW Landstill is really hard to hate / knock off balance; it's probably the most all around solid deck in the format. Do you think Meddling Mage (likely naming Swords) would have helped, or would they just have killed it with some other removal and then Swordsed your Stalker anyways? I guess you could cut basics for Tropicals and... something, for Tarmogoyf, which would help the threat density quite a bit, but I don't have much idea what "something" could be, and Tarmogoyf isn't the most removal resistant creature around either (why, oh why, can't you play 6 Tombstalkers?) -- though granted, neither is Dreadnought, so it's worth a try. It is interesting that one of the few cards Eva Green and Thrash have in common is Tarmogoyf, so that at least is a good sign. (Again, the main problem is finding something to cut.)

What was your sideboard? I still have no clue what mine would be. I guess it's easier if I approach it from the angle of what I want to board out rather than how to solve the problems I'm likely to face -- in this case, Snuff Out seems like the obvious candidate against Landstill, and in its place could come something like Duress or Dark Confidant.

SuckerPunch

09-10-2008, 10:30 AM

This decks threats are significantly faster than Thresh's and Eva Green's threats. In fact, the deck is so fast it's practically a combo deck.

Thresh (and sometimes Eva Green) won't win without answering it's opponent's threats.

This deck is different. As long as it follows through with it's gameplan, it will win faster than any noncombo deck out there. It can let opponents Tarmogoyfs and such go completely unanswered and still straight up race them.

Similarly thresh and Eva Green don't have to win asap. But that's what this deck is designed to do and do well.

That's why I don't think Goyf is ideal here. Unlike Stalker/Dreadnought, Goyf can be chump blocked for several turns. It's not a superfast win condition that can ignore the opponent's threatbase like Stalker/Dreadnought are.

The matchup where I really encountered problems was UWb Landstill( 1-2, 0-2, 2-1, 0-2) They just control the game in the early turns, if your opponent has FoW and StP it is really though. Sometimes I could screw them out of the game with Stifle+Wasteland, but there manabase is to solid too really stop them, opposed to the 4 color version.

Any tips for the control-matchup?

Yes, cut 1 Snuff Out and 3 Wasteland from the mainlist and play 4 Duress.
Replace the 4th Wasteland with an Island or something.

That IMO is the optimal maindeck.

By playing 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Daze and 4 FoW, you can make sure you can resolve your Dreadnought through their FoW's and keep it in play in spite of their StPs.

I don't particularly fear landstill running that configuration.

Snuff Out on the other hand doesn't really help you resolve or protect your threats. It's there to take out opposing threats. But Dreadnought and Tombstalker is faster than every single threat that you will face from your opponent. So it's more important to play cards like Duress that can protect your threats and make sure they resolve, than have an out against opposing Goyfs.

20 lands is overkill. And Wasteland doesn't do much. You trade your land drop for theirs, that's it. It's a good card, but Duress is better as it can actually help you resolve, and helps protect your threats.

Take a page out of Thresh's manabase. Thresh runs 17-18 lands and no Wastelands. It runs cantrips and has too low a curve to run more than 18 lands. Same here. For thresh, there is just has too many better cards to run than Wasteland. It's the same for this deck.

BreathWeapon

09-10-2008, 11:18 AM

8 discard is way, way too much, I think you're really over estimating your speed and consistency and just how much it matters in the Control and Aggro-Control match ups. You're better off by "feigning" speed than you are by weighing down the deck with discard, this deck isn't even close to combo with at best a ridiculously vulnerable turn 4 goldfish.

Counter Magic in whatever form is just a much better investment of that much deck space, I don't see a reason to use more than 4 Thought Seize like ever.

Edit: Even tho' I don't use it right now, saying Wasteland is bad in a Dreadnought shell is just ridiculous, the card supports both Dreadnought and Top and sets control back a turn on their Pernicious Deeds. The random wins you pull from Stifle + Wasteland and their power against control, which is your most difficult match, isn't something you dismiss that readily. Wasteland is more or less the single most powerful disruption piece against your worst match up, you really can't go that far wrong with it.

Benie Bederios

09-11-2008, 05:19 AM

Edit: Even tho' I don't use it right now, saying Wasteland is bad in a Dreadnought shell is just ridiculous, the card supports both Dreadnought and Top and sets control back a turn on their Pernicious Deeds. The random wins you pull from Stifle + Wasteland and their power against control, which is your most difficult match, isn't something you dismiss that readily. Wasteland is more or less the single most powerful disruption piece against your worst match up, you really can't go that far wrong with it.

Very, very, very true. I don't know how often I used Wasteland to keep an opponent off green, so he couldn't cast that dreaded Krosan Grip. It's also great against the Fear( tested it today), it just steals the game when they are digging for Deed or EE.

This decks threats are significantly faster than Thresh's and Eva Green's threats. In fact, the deck is so fast it's practically a combo deck.

Thresh (and sometimes Eva Green) won't win without answering it's opponent's threats.

This deck is different. As long as it follows through with it's gameplan, it will win faster than any noncombo deck out there. It can let opponents Tarmogoyfs and such go completely unanswered and still straight up race them.

Similarly thresh and Eva Green don't have to win asap. But that's what this deck is designed to do and do well.

What do you mean? we have almost the same disruption package as Thresh and only a little lighter thread density. Why would we want to win asap. If I have a single Stifle in my hand and a Dreadnought, Often enough I choose to Stifle an opponents fetch-land instead of playing a Dreadnought next turn.

Yes, cut 1 Snuff Out and 3 Wasteland from the mainlist and play 4 Duress.
Replace the 4th Wasteland with an Island or something.

That IMO is the optimal maindeck.

By playing 4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Daze and 4 FoW, you can make sure you can resolve your Dreadnought through their FoW's and keep it in play in spite of their StPs.

I don't particularly fear landstill running that configuration.

Snuff Out on the other hand doesn't really help you resolve or protect your threats. It's there to take out opposing threats. But Dreadnought and Tombstalker is faster than every single threat that you will face from your opponent. So it's more important to play cards like Duress that can protect your threats and make sure they resolve, than have an out against opposing Goyfs.

20 lands is overkill. And Wasteland doesn't do much. You trade your land drop for theirs, that's it. It's a good card, but Duress is better as it can actually help you resolve, and helps protect your threats.

Take a page out of Thresh's manabase. Thresh runs 17-18 lands and no Wastelands. It runs cantrips and has too low a curve to run more than 18 lands. Same here. For thresh, there is just has too many better cards to run than Wasteland. It's the same for this deck.

Alright, pair your disruption suit against Lands-Stills control suit.

4 Swords to Plowshare
3 Counterspell
2 Cunning Wish-> Return to Dust
4 Force of Will
2 Wrath of God
2 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Stone

That is 20 cards that are problematic. With the decent manabase the deck runs( it can come to UUUWW without a non-basic) it will resolve a spell that stops you. You WANT to win the game early to stop Wrath of God, Humility, Cunning Wish and perhaps EE and Oblivion Stone. So you have to worry about Counterspell, Swords to Plowshare and Force of Will. Daze is quite useless when your opponent knows it's comming, so that is 12 against 11 spells. Still not that good. And you make quite some matchup weaker, because you can't Snuff Out Goyf anymore( very strong in the Thresh matchup.

On top of that your idea will make the The Fear and 4-color Landstill matchup thougher. Those decks both have a weak manabase that can be punished with Wasteland.

I tested against ITF and went 2-1 2-0 1-2. That's not bad. Most games I won of a Tombstalker( another reason to leave it MD). Dreadnought normally dealt 12 damage before my opponent could find a solution for it. In 4 off the games I won, I could screw my opponent's mana for long enough to kill him. The last game I won, was because my opponent kept a weak hand( going to 5 cards) and couldnt deal with Dreadnought. The games I lost where, when I couldn't find enough threads or my opponent resolved Counterbalance.

Next to that I tested against Monoblue control( I figured blue based control would be the worst matchup so I tested most of them) This was matchup was really bad. 1-2 1-2 1-2 2-1. Note that I won every game one. They can't do much against you. Just fetch basics and make sure you can protect Dreadnought against Keg. Almost all other games I lost against a resolved Chalice of the Void @ 1. That is such a hammer for this deck. After that they only have to deal with Tombstalker and Echoing Truth. There was some luck involved though for my opponent. Twice I Seize'd him turn 1 seeing no Chalice. The next turn he topdecked one. The last 2 matches where played against an deck without Chalice in the board. I could have won both, but made a mistake by not countering his Shackles. He had 4 Islands but didnt play a land that turn. He was at 3 and I would have beat him next turn. I let it resolve, he used Top, drew the land and stole my Stalker.

I'm glad everyone likes the deck. Ironically, I'm probably the one in the thread who has played it the least.

I don't think the deck is really Dreadstalker without Tombstalkers in it, but I'm not about to force BreathWeapon to make a new thread just because he swapped one card, so whatever. I do think the "would I play this card in Eva Green?" / "would I play this card in Thrash?" test should be applied to most potential inclusions -- the deck is basically a hybrid of Eva Green and Thrash with Dreadnoughts thrown in. If you wouldn't include the card in either of them (disregarding color constraints), that's a pretty good sign that it doesn't belong here either.

Benie: Thanks for posting your results. Did you also try testing against :b::g: Landstill and/or It's The Fear? At least their mana should be more vulnerable. UW Landstill is really hard to hate / knock off balance; it's probably the most all around solid deck in the format. Do you think Meddling Mage (likely naming Swords) would have helped, or would they just have killed it with some other removal and then Swordsed your Stalker anyways? I guess you could cut basics for Tropicals and... something, for Tarmogoyf, which would help the threat density quite a bit, but I don't have much idea what "something" could be, and Tarmogoyf isn't the most removal resistant creature around either (why, oh why, can't you play 6 Tombstalkers?) -- though granted, neither is Dreadnought, so it's worth a try. It is interesting that one of the few cards Eva Green and Thrash have in common is Tarmogoyf, so that at least is a good sign. (Again, the main problem is finding something to cut.)

What was your sideboard? I still have no clue what mine would be. I guess it's easier if I approach it from the angle of what I want to board out rather than how to solve the problems I'm likely to face -- in this case, Snuff Out seems like the obvious candidate against Landstill, and in its place could come something like Duress or Dark Confidant.

My SB was the one posted by Roodmistah:

My initial thoughts for a board:

4x BEB
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth
4x Engineered Plague

Boarding against UW landstill: -4 Snuff Out, -1 Wasteland, +3 Extirpate, +2 Pithing Needle.

Against MUC: -4 Snuff Out, -1 Wasteland, +3 Exirpate, +2 Echoing Truth.

Against ITF: -4 Snuff Out, +3 Extirpate, +1 Pithing Needle.

I forgot the matches I only tested once. I only remember against Goblins where I went -1 Wasteland,-2 Ponder, -1 Daze, +4 Engineered Plague. I won 2-1 without using a Plague, so not sure I want to keep them there. I probably also switch Echoing Truth for Wipe Away. Wipe Away can deal with Counterbalance, Chalice @ 1 against blue control and bounce Maze of Ith.

I was thinking of a splash for the SB, but can't decide wich color. White for MM, StP and Disenchant looks solid, but green for Goyf and Krosan Grip too. These are the SB I'm thinking about:

UB sideboard
3 Extirpate
4 BEB
3 Wipe Away
2 Needle
3 Dark Confidant

Don't know about the Needles, they haven't been really strong for me. But then again I haven't played against Survival jet.

UBg sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 BEB
2 Wipe Away
3 Krosan Grip
2 Snuff Out

MD changes
-2 Snuff Out
-2 Ponder
+4 Goyf

2 Snuff Out's to the SB. Wipe Away might become Echoing truth, now I have grips in the SB. 2 Snuff Out's out of the MD and Ponder( weakest slot in the deck) for Goyfs.

UBw sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
3 Extirpate
2 Armageddon
4 BEB
3 Seal of Cleansing

Md Changes
-4 Snuff Out
+4 Swords to Plowshare.

Nothing special here. Don't know about StP, it slows down my clock if I take big creatures. But it can take black creatures wich is a plus.

I'm also thinking of going down to 19 lands(-1 Swamp, -1 Flooded Strand,+1 Bloodstained Mire) but have no idea what to put in the final spot. A one-off in a deck without tutors isn't that great. It might become a Misdirection.

BB

SuckerPunch

09-11-2008, 12:07 PM

Benie Bederios

09-11-2008, 01:22 PM

I don't understand how your testing doesn't support my statement, that we should be be playing the opening list but with fewer land and snuff out to make room for 8 discard (4 Duress and 4 Thoughtseize).

You say that you lost to Chalice on turn 2, Shackles, and main concerns against landstill were cards like StP, Counterspell etc.

Guess what, Duress and Thoughtseize help you in all of those situations.

I honestly think your results would have been more positive had you opted to make the change to more discard/disruption in place of some Snuff Out and Wasteland.

What reason is there to not play the cards that answer the cards that are giving this deck problems?

The problem isn't the specific cards that disrupt your gameplan, the problem is the quantity. Of course can a Duress take a Chalice or Shackles, but the draw engines of those decks are that strong, they will draw more than you solutions than you can draw threads. The problem of those decks is, is they need alot mana to keep there draw engines running. Cards like Wasteland, Stifle, Hymn to Tourach and Sinkole(like Nightwolf said) keep an control player of balance. Duress never does that.

On top of that would you hurt about 8 matchups to be slightly better at 2? I wouldn't or my whole meta would be infested with those two decks.

Snuff Out can be removed I suppose, but it is nice to kill Goyfs, Grunts and Lackeys.

As for your sideboard choices, I think the following cards simply don't do enough for this deck well enough or for long enough...
Extripate
Engineered Plague
Echoing Truth

Two of my favorite cards for this deck are...
Lightning Greaves
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

They're a perfect fit in the board. Just when your opponents board in a ton of ways to target your creatures to kill, bounce, or steal them, you lead out with either card and make their targeted removal much harder to use. Lightning Greaves also speeds your clock up by a turn, letting you attack with Dreadnought/Tombstalker the same turn that you cast it.

I agree with Plague and Truth. They are the worst cards in the board, and probably could be removed(although it depdends on the meta). Extirpate is your best bet against control. It can also punish weak mana bases. Seriously if I had to remove Snuff Out( wich I won't do) Extirpate would go to the MD. turn 1 Wasteland turn 2 Extirpate is very strong, so is it in combination with Thoughtseize. This card would be the last card I would remove from the SB.

As you suggestions, Kira is cute but quite bad. 3 mana to protect your creatures is quite slow, especially when you want to win the game early, as you want to do. Lightning Greaves is a nice option. The problem is you have to play it before Dread Stalker so your opponent knows about it. You still have to force through the creature and equip it. In wich matchups would you bring it in?

BB

USMC~PLAYER

09-11-2008, 04:35 PM

Kitchen Table Hero

09-11-2008, 05:18 PM

what about Dimir Doppelganger for when Dreadnought goes to the grave (dont forget that you can use the ability without have to sac it because it becomes a copy of it) and you can still use the ability on your opponents stuff too making him double useful (especially against grave tech cards like ichorid-change to ich swing, change to something else.

I doubt it, first - the dreadnought would have to be in the grave which is something you dont want. Then there is the mana intensity, 3 to cast and then another 3 to use next turn. This deck is very light on mana, with the most expensive spell costing 2. If you can invest 6 mana over 2 turns then its probably so late in the game that the game is gone. Atleast in my scenarios i the game went beyond, say, 6 turns the initial cheap disruption package wears off and the oponents board control elements become unbearable. Plus, do you really want another card that relies on the yard considering that g2 people will probably bring in yard hate due to tombstalker?

I would much rather play a card thats a threat on its own.

USMC~PLAYER

09-11-2008, 11:46 PM

Kitchen Table Hero

09-12-2008, 04:20 AM

i had a version of the deck with it lets see if i can remember the list:

4 Stifle
4 Trickbind
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dimir Doppelganger
4 Vesuvan Shapeshifter
4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Isochron Scepter
3 Counterspell
4 Orim's Chant
1 Enlightened Tutor

3 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
3 Tundra

SIDEBOAD:

3 Extirpate
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Vision Charm
3 Slaughter Pact
1 Leyline of Singularity
2 Guerrilla Tactics-or-Double Cleave

what i did was use isochron counterspell or isochron orim's chant (dont forget you CAN use the kicker off isochron chant making the lock)
thus holding off opponents for the big strike (3+ways to get Phyrexian out)

ways:

Phyrexian use stifle, trickbind

Phyrexian-phase out with vision charm

Phyrexian in play get a second with vesuvan shapeshifter

Phyrexian in yard get it with dimir doppelganger-this can get arround ensnaring bridge! huge upsets to some
with eventide-double cleave bridge doesnt look so threatening anymore.

this was a good deck i just dont have the money anymore to get the cards-most were proxied

White also gives you Enlightened Tutor so you can fetch the Dreadnought when you need it

and you can interchange some stuff (since the lock holds them- Followed Footsteps on dreadnought with isochron stifle/trickbind)

I think i stopped reading when I saw this:
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
3 Tundra

Thats 9 lands.

I relaly hope that your memory failed you, because there is no synergy in that deck whatsoever.
4 dark rituals and two spells that use a single black mana?
Dont run pact of negation, please.
Why do you run 12 ways to get dreadnought in play when you only have 4 noughts? If you look at the lists above, they run 4 stifles and 4 vision charms (which also work with Tombstalker), there is no need for more than that.
Instead of fancy tricks with scepter you could use some card draw.

Just look at the lists above, and look at the thread with the white splash (the thread is called The Unstopable Dreadnought) and try to understand some of the decisions that went into the process of building the deck.

Barsoom

09-19-2008, 03:00 PM

Benie Bederios

09-22-2008, 08:04 AM

To revive the topic, here on deck check a list that got 3° place on a 29 man tourney (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19826.

We can notice Confidant and SDT, and Diabolic Edict instead of Snuff Out.

Nice list, I'm going to test it.

Some notes before I have tested it:

6 fetches. I would play the max amount of fetches to make sure I can land a Tombstalker early.

Tomb of Urami, I get the point, an uncounterable win-condition. But with only 1 in play it's very random. On top of that you have to get to 5 mana. Might be a bit to late.

Dark Confidant. Although it's nice, With Stalekr and FoW you need to play Top alongside it, if you choose to play it main. I play it in the SB, so I can bring it in against matchups where my life total doesn't matter that much. Ponder is faster than Sensei to use in the early turns.

Edict over Snuff Out would probably works. Edict deals with untargetable and black creatures. It also doesn't loose life( wich is nice with Confidant.)

Duress over Thoughtseize, I assume it's the pricetag of Thoughtseize. The 2 life is worth the ability to nab creatures.

In short it looks like a slower(Sensei/Edict) controlisher(Dark Confidant) version of the deck.

BB

Captain Hammer

10-08-2008, 12:09 AM

This is my build of Dreadstalker.

10 Fetchland
8 Land

4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

The major and significant difference is that it runs 12 cantrips rather than 9. This simulatnously increases your ability to draw into threats (as you run few threats), as well as cards like Misdirection, FoW and Daze that protects your threats.

MisD I think is very solid overall. The fact is, as long as the deck can keep either of our threats on the table, we can race most every other threat/deck. MisD helps protects those threats, and also helps you win counterwars to make sure those threats resolve in the first place.

I really truly honestly think this is the better approach.

Benie Bederios

10-08-2008, 05:52 AM

If you want to run 12 cantrips might I suggest Predict above Portent?? I played the deck for a while now, and I run out of gas quite often... That's why I dropped Misdirection for Spell Snare. I'm trimming my list down to 18 lands too, but am not convinced yet. I am trying 3 Predicts now.

My list compared to the list in the opening post:

-2 lands( not sure wich one, for now I'm playing -1 Wasteland, -1 Underground Sea) and a Mire instead of a Strand.
-1 Thoughtseize

+3 Predict.

Testing results will follow.

BB

Captain Hammer

10-08-2008, 07:40 PM

Benie Bederios

10-08-2008, 07:49 PM

You're missing the point of cantripping. It's to find specific cards that you're looking for (combo pieces, threats, counters etc). So the deeper the cantrip digs, the better.

If you want card draw, why not opt to play Night's Whisper over Predict? Surely not having to time the Predict perfectly, or misfiring, is worth losing two life. Frankly, I think neither Predict nor Night's Whisper is good enough.

Predict works well in thresh because it also helps fill your yard very quickly, and works with counterbalance and top.

A: Instant Speed > Sorcery Speed
B: Filling the yard works nice with Tombstalker
C: 12 Cantrips is overkill in my opinion

Predict works also nice with/against topdeck Tutors. I've tested some games and it was good. There is only 1 deck that can get away with playing 12 cantrips and that's Fetchland Tendrils. But there is 1 of the cantrips is a major combopiece.

The problem of this deck isn't finding the right pieces, but running out of gas to fast. To counter this you need a way to refill your hand. Predict is the cheapest way to do it, even if it's only a little bit. That's a reason I dropped Misdirection from my build. With so many 2 for 1's you get in topdeck mode quite fast. Cantrips only find a FoW without a card to pitch, where Predict gets you 2 cards.

BB

BB

klaus

10-10-2008, 03:19 AM

I love the straight forward approach of your deck, Illissius.
With the list below I'm heading a slightly different direction with more pressure on the opponents manabase.
Lmk what you think of it?

4 Stalker
4 Nought

4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Force Spike-------------------I like this one here
2 Spellsnare
4 Stifle
3 V. Charm

2 Smother ---------------or Spellsnare#3, Sinkhole#4
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole---------------syncs with Forcespike/Daze/Stifle-Waste (& vice versa)

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Needle
3 Back to Basics
2 Smother?

Some thoughts I had on the list:
- is creature removal really neccessary in the main (or the side)?
- 1 or 2 Islands?
- Thoughtseize didnt make it cause I always want to at least bluff the turn 1 Stifle
- same goes for Ponder
-

Miklion

10-13-2008, 08:56 AM

hi all.. yes, im new to the forum, but nevertheless...

i've been playing around with a dreadstalker deck, much like the one Hanni posted in the dreaded fish list (an UB version of the one hes posted in here, more or less), and i must confess : wauw!

the deck is really strong, really really strong. what i found out is the thing to do, is - as you already pointed out more or less - pay no attention to what your opponent does (more or less, dont let him combo off or get a counterbalance on the table). apart from those, you can pretty much ignore him. just either, rip his hand apart from countermeasures to your big stick, or have a fow (and pref a daze) on hand and just get on with it.

i agree with Klaus that some focused distuption is good, but i found wastelands (and sinkholes etc) not to be the way to go. i often keep hands like "ponder, stifle, vision charm, dreadnought, duress, fetch, daze".
you never need more than one land, the deck digs so deep that you're bound to find more, and digging into a wasteland is really really dissapointing.
true its ok with the dreadnought hand i just posted, but with stalkers, you want all the colored mana you can get.

true that stifle and wastelands can be great, but i usually fetch for an underground sea first if i have a stifle in hand, and if he fetches, fine by me. just keep the stifle as defense against other wastelands. if he doesnt play a wasteland, you can brainstorm instead, which is a much stronger play in this deck, as you (obviously) want a stalker or a nought out by turn 4 at the latest.

what ive been playing around with is something in the like of :
//guys 11
4 dark confidant
4 Phryexian Dreadnought
3 Tombstalker

//stuff 32
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 duress
3 sensei's divining top
2 engineered explosives

//mana 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 bloodstained mire
2 Underground Sea
1 city of brass
2 Island
3 Swamp
1 academy ruins

this list is really strong, and the confidant is great at baiting. and if he doesnt bait the removal, he'll get you all the things you need.
this list - as Hanni will probably soon figure out - is pretty much the list he posted in the dreaded fish post, just with the confidants and a few minor changes (the city of brass is nice with engineered explosives, but really just there because i lack a 3rd underground sea.. :| )

however, after being redirected to this post by a friend of mine, i tried cutting out the confidants, which ofcourse makes the control matchup abit harder, but the deck is just something completely different.
with top and confidant gone, you dont get those hands where the optimal play is
land -> top -> go
land -> confidant -> go

the list i play now, is (well hanni inspired me, ok) very much alike hannis UBg list in here, except it has 4 duress and 3 spell snare in the thoughtseize slots.
i really like spell snare, ofcourse, it cant answer EE for 1, stp and the likes, but the ability to tak out an opponents counterbalance or chalice for 1 game 1 is just really strong. ofcourse, thoughtseize does this as well, but i must say, im really not impressed with anything at sorcery speed in the deck, i almost took out ponder and replaced it with opt or impulse for the sake of them being instant. but ofcourse, ponder > opt and 1cc > 2cc as always...
i went 2-3 at a 26man tourney, which wasnt quite what i had hoped for, but ichorid and a dragonstompy that draws well while you mull to 5 and cling on to hope isnt the best start ofcourse...

im not really sure what to do, but as BB, ill be testing predict in the deck, and if i can get the draw engine strong enough, id really like misdirection in the deck, as it would be a godsent. but ofcourse we all know that with nought+stifle/charm and fow, it would be ridiculous to try and squeeze another answer which is 2for1 (well, 2for2 sometimes) into the deck, as i find myself with 3 or less cards in hand at turn 4 more than often. but then again, perhaps a single misdirection could fit in? if anything, it can always be pitched to fow.
+ the ability to play a dreadnought, fetch in response to the trigger, and then misdirect the opponents stifle onto your dreadnought is just something ive been really really wanting to try for a long time..

ill be testing the deck some more tonight vs a few different decks, and see where it takes me, but by all means, dont let this thread die!
im hopelessly in love with the deck, and really want it to make it at least to the established forums as a proper archetype. it really deserves it:)

am i going where you have already gone and failed too many times?

/Mik

klaus

10-13-2008, 09:51 AM

at mik:

Cut that City of Brass it's not fetchable, please? Add a Tundra or a Scrubland (even Godless Shrine would be better in that slot).

- Duress really should be Thoughtseize (and Confidant max. 3) especially with EE as your only creture removal.

- if you go down to 3 Stalkers (which is good when playing Bob) I don't see any reason to play a full set of Vision Charms, especially since you're not going the mana denial plan (no Wastelands). So Stifle is really only relevant for Nought and EE/Deed/land protection.

It's fine with me to run 3 Top MD and no CB, it should fill 3 slots in your side though.

Cheers,
Klaus

Benie Bederios

10-13-2008, 10:08 AM

- Thoughtseize didnt make it cause I always want to at least bluff the turn 1 Stifle
- same goes for Ponder

About not playing Ponder and Thoughtseize, because of T1 Stifle. I think that's rather bad. If you have Stifle( or really need to bluff T1 Stifle) just don't play Thoughtseize/Ponder turn 1. Wait until turn 2, drop a second land and Ponder then. Ponder helps to find your creatures/lands and control and fills the yard for Tombstalker.

Might swap Thoughtseize for Spell Snare in my list though, just for testing.

On top of that you loose 8 1 CC sorceries beceause you want to be able to Stifle turn 1. But play 8 2CC sorceries so that you can't stifle on turn 2 and 3, hmm....

- is creature removal really neccessary in the main (or the side)?

I think it does, it deals with creaturebased combodecks( Painter Servant, breakfast). It also stops a turn 1 Lackey. Goblins can race you. Against Stompy it buys alot of turns.

- 1 or 2 Islands?

My list 2, your list 1 is enough. You play alot of BB in the castingcost, so dropping an Island will probably work. The only problem is that you can't Daze of a Swamp.

2 Smother ---------------or Spellsnare#3, Sinkhole#4
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Sinkhole---------------syncs with Forcespike/Daze/Stifle-Waste (& vice versa)

How is the combination of discard and counters holding up. As I said before I never liked the combination. I'm always in dubio: Do I want to play discard( or Sinkhole for that matter) or keep the mana open for counters. Any comments?

i agree with Klaus that some focused distuption is good, but i found wastelands (and sinkholes etc) not to be the way to go. i often keep hands like "ponder, stifle, vision charm, dreadnought, duress, fetch, daze".
you never need more than one land, the deck digs so deep that you're bound to find more, and digging into a wasteland is really really dissapointing.
true its ok with the dreadnought hand i just posted, but with stalkers, you want all the colored mana you can get.

true that stifle and wastelands can be great, but i usually fetch for an underground sea first if i have a stifle in hand, and if he fetches, fine by me. just keep the stifle as defense against other wastelands. if he doesnt play a wasteland, you can brainstorm instead, which is a much stronger play in this deck, as you (obviously) want a stalker or a nought out by turn 4 at the latest.

It looks alot like http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19826 minus 3 lands + 3 Ponder. There might be some ideas for you.

About your list.

Confidant's are quite good, but I think it's a metacall. I play them SB, because I don't see to many control decks here and need to race more often. Against control I bring them in, because my life-total doesn't matter anyway.

For City of Brass, wouldn't it be better to play another dual( say Tundra) wich you can fetch. gets the same result, with less damage.

How is 17 lands holding up. It looks like really pushing the limit.

i agree with Klaus that some focused distuption is good, but i found wastelands (and sinkholes etc) not to be the way to go. i often keep hands like "ponder, stifle, vision charm, dreadnought, duress, fetch, daze".
you never need more than one land, the deck digs so deep that you're bound to find more, and digging into a wasteland is really really dissapointing.
true its ok with the dreadnought hand i just posted, but with stalkers, you want all the colored mana you can get.

true that stifle and wastelands can be great, but i usually fetch for an underground sea first if i have a stifle in hand, and if he fetches, fine by me. just keep the stifle as defense against other wastelands. if he doesnt play a wasteland, you can brainstorm instead, which is a much stronger play in this deck, as you (obviously) want a stalker or a nought out by turn 4 at the latest.

Just wondering How would you play that land against a unkown opponent? I rarely fetch a turn 1 Underground Sea. Why would you do that? If you fetched a basic land, wasteland sit just dead in his hand.

Mana denial is great in matches like 4C Standstill, ITF and Threshold. Without the manadenial plan those matchups get quite worse. If your metagame lacks those decks, it's fine to drop them.

the list i play now, is (well hanni inspired me, ok) very much alike hannis UBg list in here, except it has 4 duress and 3 spell snare in the thoughtseize slots.
i really like spell snare, ofcourse, it cant answer EE for 1, stp and the likes, but the ability to tak out an opponents counterbalance or chalice for 1 game 1 is just really strong. ofcourse, thoughtseize does this as well, but i must say, im really not impressed with anything at sorcery speed in the deck, i almost took out ponder and replaced it with opt or impulse for the sake of them being instant. but ofcourse, ponder > opt and 1cc > 2cc as always...

You say Thoughtseize is bad but play Duress? Please explain.

On another note, can you post your SB? Do you play Counterbalance in it?

ATM this is my list. The first Tournament is in 2 weeks, so I still have some time to test.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

3 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Predict

3 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Wipe Away
2 Needle
3 Dark Confidant

I like Predict alot, but probably have alot of luck. Almost every time I was able to draw 2 cards. It also fucks topdeck tutors. I would like to here the testing of Miklion.

Next testing would be Top in the MD( instead of Ponder) with Counterbalance in the SB.

BB

EDIT: A Klaus beat me with posting.

Miklion

10-13-2008, 12:07 PM

first of : the CoB, as mentioned, is really not supposed to be there, its there because i lack the 3rd underground sea.

i know testing a deck, should always be done with everything at your disposal, but since i took the deck to a tourney, i couldnt really do that.

kinda the same story for thoughtseize, id love to play them, but i dont have access to them atm, dont mistake that for me thinking they are bad, i only questioned the sorcery speed vs the instant speed of spell snare, but that ofcourse if negated by the fact that thoughtseize takes everything, save a topdecked removal spell.

against the unknown opponent, i ofcourse wouldnt fetch an underground sea unless i had something to counter his wasteland etc. nor would i do it unless id need BB for a fast stalker, and hadnt got other lands in sight... it probably was a bad example, minus the probably...

also, i dont play confidants anymore, i failed to post the list i play now, but atm its pretty much identical with Hannis UBg list -thoughtseize, + spell snare (the money issue) and i play a 4th tombstalker.
17 lands have been surprisingly stable for me. with 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder i almost always get to 2/3 lands by turn 2/3, which is all i ever need.

about the sideboard - i cant really post it, since it is in a constant state of flux (the meta keeps shifting around, and i keep picking stupid last minute decisions..).
also, no, there are no CBs in there, since
#1 : i dont have sufficient 2cc spells for it, and
#2 : i dont have top in the deck...

my deck looks like this at the moment.

//guys 9
4 Phryexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
1 shriekmaw

//stuff 34
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 duress
3 spell snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 pernicious deed

//mana 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 bloodstained mire
3 Underground Sea (yes, i have a CoB in a spot here, hate me for it =) )
1 tropical island
1 bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp

the safe spots in my board consists of :
3 engineered plague
3 krosan grip

the rest is being switched around alot. i like echoing truth against ichorid, tormods crypt as well, some creature removal, smother mainly, hydroblast against goblins, DS, burn and all the other red threats out there, and null rod (i've seen abit affinity based decks around, and the only really scary thing i meet it doesnt answer that needle does, is deed, and against those i still have stifles and charms - thou needle is better against landstill with deed, but then you have tombstalker to give them something to think about, plus 4c landstill isnt something i see alot of.)

this is virtually a copy of hannis list, with some minor changes, mostly caused by my wallet.
thou i would play 15 disruption pieces as i am, instead of 16, and play the 4th tombstalker; it is just as nuts as the dreadnought.

if i was to put wastelands in there, i would probably go a completely different route, with confidant, top, CB alongside, for a more control'ish version. and then i think the stalkers would have to go, making it more into something that belongs in the dreaded fish post. and then either going with UW, UWg or Ubg would probably be the stronger deck anyway.

im really pleased with the deck going abit more 'suicidal', by going with the very tempobased disruption against removal, instead of trying to control the opponents manabase etc.

/mik

EDIT : ill be trying out some MD removal as well, i guess snuff out is the way to go, if it is needed.

kiwi

10-16-2008, 01:12 PM

This is my current build of the deck:

// Lands
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Swamp
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Bayou
1 Academy Ruin's

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
3 [ON] Smother

SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Executioner's Capsule is a new tool for triket mage, this deck has got a lot of disruption vs combo decks, and moreover phyrexian dreadnought + stifle its a fast option for wining.

klaus

10-20-2008, 08:55 AM

Heys,
I top4ed with the list below at a recent tournament (18 ppl) only losing 1 match against Affinity (2-1) due to mulls, manascrew (my bad) and 1-2 obvious playmistakes.
I won against Dragon Stompy (Nought), Dredge.dec (Nought), BG Sui (Stalker) and Vial Faeries (double Stalker)- all 2-0.

The mana denial plan was solid all day, as was the deck as a whole. The deck really doesn't need creature removal beyond those 2 EEs as pseudo removal and 1 Threats of Disloyalty in the SB. There's nothing I'd change. Some choices/experiences are outlined in the list.

"UBg Dreadstalker aka. BIG_TINGS_AGWAAN."

Critters: [11]
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
3 Tarmogoyf..........................no, it wasn't that I couldn't get my hands on Goyf #4. I just thought "Tombstalker+Goyf=not perfectly synergistic" and "11 threats=enough to smash face". As it turned out Goyfs were 3/4s more often than not, so I'm hesitant to add #4 atm.

Instants: [19]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind...................I never needed Vision Charm to fill my grave!
2 Vision Charm

sorcery [10]
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Ponder

artifact [2]
2 Engineered Explosives........this deck craves MD solutions against Chalice and CB. Also, it's a neat sweeper against aggro.dec. I'll definitely stick with those 2 EEs.

land [18]
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand..........I liked the fetchland config.
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island............no need for more green
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland..................3 IS the perfect number.

60 cards

Sideboard:
3 Dark Confidant.................against control obvioiusly. Didn't face Control.dec; if I had I'd gone: +3 Bob, -2 Stalker, -1 xyz.
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle...............most of all S. Top!..and opposing sweepers.
1 Pernicious Deed.............."Grip#3" with a built-in sweeper bonus. 1 is max. due to Deed's high mana investment.
1 Threads of Disloyalty.......might seem random here. ToD deserves its slot because it shines against aggro control. Double blue restricts it to a single copy however.

Feedback is appreciated.

Illissius

10-20-2008, 09:50 AM

Looks pretty defensible, even though I love Snuff Out and would never cut it. I might not make many of the same changes, but there's nothing in there which elicits a "what the fuck?". I don't like EE, but I can see how it could be a necessary evil.

I wouldn't ever take out Tombstalkers against control. They're your single best threat, being the hardest to remove. Confidant plus Tombstalker isn't completely ideal, but flipping one isn't going to hurt against control as much as against other decks.

How did 18 lands work out? I'm likewise thinking of cutting two (from 20) for Tarmogoyfs.

klaus

10-20-2008, 02:01 PM

How did 18 lands work out? I'm likewise thinking of cutting two (from 20) for Tarmogoyfs.
With 8 cantrips and an average CMC of 1,38 (counting Tombstalker as CMC 3, Daze as CMC 1, EE as CMC 3) PLUS 5 Stifle effects to potentially protect your non-basics I think 18 is the perfect amount of land.

Illissius

10-25-2008, 06:37 PM

Benie Bederios sent me a primer by PM, and I've edited it into the opening post. If anyone wants to help improve it, feel free, and I'll edit that in as well.

In other news, if I were to play games with the deck, these days the list would probably look like the following. Keep in mind that this is just as untested as the last one was.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Tarmogoyf
SB: 1 Island

If I expected lots of Dragon Stompy, the sideboard would include a bunch of Blue Blasts, but that deck hasn't been a significant presence in T8s for a while now. (And I would probably use the previous list, sans green.)

Rood

10-25-2008, 08:18 PM

Has anyone else noticed that this deck and Team America are pretty much

-4 Dreadnought
-4 Charm
+4 Sinkhole
+2 Goyf
+2 Land?

Xurcks

10-25-2008, 08:44 PM

Has anyone else noticed that this deck and Team America are pretty much

-4 Dreadnought
-4 Charm
+4 Sinkhole
+2 Goyf
+2 Land?

I was about to say the same thing. It looks like Team America mixed up with Dreadstill (not that it should be a bad thing lately).

Illissius

10-25-2008, 08:59 PM

Has anyone else noticed that this deck and Team America are pretty much

-4 Dreadnought
-4 Charm
+4 Sinkhole
+2 Goyf
+2 Land?

Pretty much everyone, I think ;).

Benie Bederios

10-27-2008, 06:19 AM

Hi,

Time to post here again.

First of all:
Mistake in the primer. The boarding for aggro-loam would be -3 Predict, -2 Ponder, + 3 Thoughtseize, +2 Wipe Away, +3 Extirpate. Playing 57 cards and get a loss wouldn't be the strongest option.

Second:
For everyone who wants to play Tarmogoyf as 2/3 off, have you tried Sea Drake. It doesn't hamper with Tombstalker, it has evasion, always has a power of 4 and doesn't involve another color. With only 2 or 3 in the deck the drawback is manageable.

Kiwi: Your deck looks more like Dreaded Fish with so many creatures and more important Trinket Mage. Allthough it's a good creature it is slow and is hardly a clock. Your control seems light too, with only 4 Fow, 3 Daze and 2 Thoughtseize.

Illissius: How is your SB holding up. Seal over Grip is for Blood Moon I presume? The duresses are quite weak though. I rather play Dark Confidant in that spot. In the matches it comes in a) your life total hardly matters b) you probably side it for Snuff Out lowering your average CC. It also hurts to see that Extirpate is out, but probably the right thing... I wasn't very impressed by it.

At everyone: any testing on Relic of Progenitus as graveyard hate? Looks quite solid for builds that doesn't run Goyf( I fear I'm the only one though.)

BB

Frank The Tank

11-22-2008, 10:34 PM

I just played the following build in a 40 person 1.5 tourney and didn't do so hot (2-3)

-Lands(18)-
Polluted Delta - 4
Flooded Strand - 4
Underground Sea - 4
Tundra - 3
Swamp - 1
Island - 1
Plains - 1

-Creatures(8)-
Tombstalker - 4
Dreadnought - 4

-Spells(32)
Ponder - 4
Daze - 4
Vision Charm - 4
Stifle - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thoughtseize - 4
Vindicate - 4
Force of Will - 4

-Artifacts(2)-
Engineered Explosives - 2

-Sideboard(15)-
Engineered Explosives - 2
Chill - 3
Extirpate - 3
Pithing Needle - 3
Meddling Mage - 4

I am going to toss out white and put in green

-Maindeck-
-3 Tundras
-1 Plains
-4 Vindicates
-2 Engineered Explosives

+3 Tropical Islands
+1 Forest
+4 Pernicious Deeds
+2 Krosan Grips

-Sideboard-
-4 Meddling Mages
-3 Chills

+4 Tygon Predators
+2 Krosan Grips
+1 Extirpate

So the deck would look like this:

-Lands(18)-
Polluted Delta - 4
Flooded Strand - 4
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Islands - 3
Swamp - 1
Island - 1
Forest - 1

-Creatures(8)-
Tombstalker - 4
Dreadnought - 4

-Spells(34)-
Ponder - 4
Daze - 4
Vision Charm - 4
Stifle - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thoughtseize - 4
Pernicious Deed - 4
Force of Will - 4
Krosan Grips - 2

-Sideboard(15)-
Engineered Explosives - 2
Krosan Grips - 2
Pithing Needle - 3
Extirpate - 4
Trygon Predator - 4

Any suggestions would be appreciated but please don't say Goyf because one, he doesn't mess well with Tombstalker and two, I don't have something like $120 to pay for a play set of them.

Nihil Credo

11-23-2008, 08:07 AM

BreathWeapon

11-23-2008, 02:56 PM

Clark Kant

11-23-2008, 03:36 PM

As a rule of thumb, I think this deck should stay away from 3cc cards to maintain a small lite manabase. That rules out both Vindicate and Deed. I suppose an exception could be made for Trinket Mage since it's so flexible and also doubles as a threat.

For everyone who wants to play Tarmogoyf as 2/3 off, have you tried Sea Drake. It doesn't hamper with Tombstalker, it has evasion, always has a power of 4 and doesn't involve another color. With only 2 or 3 in the deck the drawback is manageable.

I think that's a very valid point. Splashing another color to play 2 copies of a vanilla creature that's often just a 3/4 here doesn't seem ideal.

Breathweapon, that is a fair point about Snuff Out.

I think Snuff Out is just there in case you can't protect your threat, or are unable to find one while the opponent beats down with Goyf.

But I suppose Divert could work well in the deck too. Its very unexpected, but is a solid way to protect your cards and counter countermagic. Spell Snare could also work against Disenchants, Seals, Smothers and Counterspells. Spell Snare is generally more versatile but useless against a lot of the removal you'll be facing though (FoW, StP, Snuff Out etc).

This is my current build of the deck:

// Lands
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Swamp
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Bayou
1 Academy Ruin's

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
3 [ON] Smother

SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Executioner's Capsule is a new tool for triket mage, this deck has got a lot of disruption vs combo decks, and moreover phyrexian dreadnought + stifle its a fast option for wining.

I really like this build of the deck. But I would make the following changes...

4 Tombstalker + 0/3/4 Goyf. Goyfs tend to be 3/4s and 4/5s in this too often.

0 Trickbind + 2 Vision Charm. Vision Charm works with Dreadnought, Tombstalker and Goyf, and costs only one blue mana. I don't see why you wouldn't run it and instead run a card that only works with Dreadnought and comes out a turn later instead.

0 Smother. There's just so many better options imo. Snuff Out if you want removal, Duress/Thoughtseize/Hymn if you want discard, Sinkhole if you want LD, Ponder if you want countermagic, Spell Snare if you want countermagic, Divert if you want protection.

I actually amn't sure if the deck should make room for both Goyfs with a green splash and Trinket Mage + 1 ofs. That takes up too many slots. With just Mage, you can play cards like a one of Relic of Progenitus that work against opposing Goyfs.

Frank The Tank

11-23-2008, 05:28 PM

Pernicious Deed is god-awful in a tempo deck like this one (so are the SB Extirpates, by the way). Bounce, LD, a 1-2cc beater, or some combination of the above would probably work better. For SB GY hate, your deck wants Crypt.

I have been play testing it and it has actually been working out much better then I thought. I rarely have to pop the deed when I have a dreadnought out because if he is swinging I am winning. I usually just use it to clear all kinds of threats like Ensnaring Bridges, O Rings, etc.

The reason why I use Extirpates instead of Crypt is to get rid of that one combo piece and strip it from their deck. I can't remember how many Aggro loam decks I saw at the last tourney and if you shut down their draw engine it makes it for a much better match.

I am not really worried about the goyf factor because Dreadnoughts just walk right through them.

I guess if I wanted to add another threat I would have to buckle down and get 4 goyfs. Are there anymore options in the "3rd threat" slot?

Nihil Credo

11-23-2008, 05:58 PM

I have been play testing it and it has actually been working out much better then I thought. I rarely have to pop the deed when I have a dreadnought out because if he is swinging I am winning. I usually just use it to clear all kinds of threats like Ensnaring Bridges, O Rings, etc.
Fair enough, but do you run into so many show-stoppers in game 1? Also, since practically every permanent that can stop a Dreadnought or Stalker is an artifact or enchantment, doesn't Grip do the job better anyway?

The reason why I use Extirpates instead of Crypt is to get rid of that one combo piece and strip it from their deck. I can't remember how many Aggro loam decks I saw at the last tourney and if you shut down their draw engine it makes it for a much better match.

You already beat the shit out of Aggro Loam because you're much too fast and evasive for them to be able to establish board dominance. Loam-fueled card advantage in particular is about the last thing you fear from them. The worst scenario for you involves them resolving a Chalice@1, against which Extirpate does nothing.
Meanwhile, Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus will let you beat Ichorid even when you don't have the turn 2 Dreadnought. And if you bring them in against Loam, you have enough pressure that keeping a mana open to play around it is actually a huge problem for them.

Frank The Tank

11-23-2008, 07:55 PM

More often then not the Dreadnought gets Swords, smothered, Snuffed Out, O Ring, K Grip, the list just goes on and on. Most time I get to swing though with the Dreadnought when I stifle him on turn two, have FoW backup and turn 3 either have another counter or have a vision charm for evasion.

Honestly I usually just toss out the dreadnought as bait and finish with a later play Tombstalker which is sad. Maybe I am just playing the deck wrong.

Benie Bederios

11-24-2008, 05:59 AM

What's the reasoning for Snuff Out? Removal makes sense for Team America because you have to clear their Tarmogoyfs to let yours thru', but this deck just drops 12/12 tramplers and 5/5 flyers at lightning speed, so wouldn't disregarding removal be more efficient?

Look at it the other way... Sometimes this deck just needs to kill a creature, wether it's a Goyf who could race your Tombstalker, a Lackey, a Magus of the Moon, an oposing Dreadnought or even an early Exalted Angel. Because of the fast clock we can use Snuff Out...

At Frank... I kinda liked the UBw version. I think I will test that with some minor changes. Probably try Swords to Plowshare over Vindicate and carddraw/quality over EE, like Sensei's Divining Top or Predict. Without the Snuff Out's I even might try Counterbalance in the SB.

BB

Solknar

11-24-2008, 05:27 PM

I don't like the idea of splashing only for the green guy, even if, that's true, we sometime desperately need a kill. I would prefr the trinket toolbox. here is my current build, subject to change:
4 polluted
3 flooded
2 island
2 swamp
4 sea
3 waste

4 nought
4 stalker
3 trinket

4 Fow
4 daze
4 ponder
4 bstorm
4 seize
4 stifle
4 vision charm
1 relic
1 capsule
1 EE

sb (turn against red aggro decks and cotv)
3 echoing truth
5 beb (3 beb 2 hydro0
3 tormod
1 needle
3 bob

I'm especially not sure about the MD toolbox.
another idea would be to add 1 grindstone and find room for painter...

Illissius

11-24-2008, 08:05 PM

Trinket Mage is slow as all unholy hell. (Same with Deed, Vindicate, and the like). It could be that Dreadnought for four mana is the next best threat the deck has available, but I actually don't think so: four mana is a lot. For the most part, the only cards I want to add to this deck are the ones from Team America not already in it -- that, and more Tombstalkers. Alas.

This doesn't necessarily mean that slow cards are the wrong choices (only highly suggests it). The metagame can often force you to play cards which don't mesh perfectly with your deck's strategy (though this doesn't mean I have to like it). If that's the case, though, it might be helpful to mention exactly what metagame factors you're trying to address. (Or you could, of course, just disagree with me entirely.)

Frank The Tank

11-24-2008, 08:30 PM

I have been running the following build on MWS and it has been smashing face. I either get a [system] player lost on turn 2 or it goes into the later rounds and I out race them. Even when i play against some type of white control (swords, wrath, O rings, etc) I can still pull out a win because they just run out of answers after a 3rd Tombstalker, or a late game Spiritmonger.

-Lands(18)-
Polluted Delta - 4
Flooded Strand - 4
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Islands - 4
Swamp - 1
Forest - 1

-Creatures(10)-
Tombstalker - 4
Dreadnought - 4
Spiritmonger - 2

-Spells(28)-
Ponder - 4
Daze - 4
Vision Charm - 4
Stifle - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thoughtseize - 4
Force of Will - 4

-Enchantments(4)-
Pernicious Deed - 4

-Sideboard(15)-
Pithing Needle - 3
Engineered Explosives - 4
Krosan Grips - 4
Tormods Crypt - 4

The Deeds, Spiritmongers, and Sideboard EEs are great for the games where you don't blow up on turn two. Sure this deck is great early game but if you do not finish them off around turn 4 or 5 it tends to "crap out" pretty consistently. Adding in a 3rd threat and some "do over" cards really help the deck to be more rounded. Granted this build is still Dread Stalker but with some Rock tossed in. I either go for the Naught turn two and ride it out or drop the stalker turn two with a third turn deed. Not once have I even thought about popping the deed with a dreadnaught in play.

As for putting Painter/grindstone in as a splash would be bad because one thing that really helps with that deck is when you name red with painter and Hydro/Blue blast everything. Without that backup and/or removal the Painter deck isn't so hot.

Back when I first starting playing this deck I had Counter Top in and I think it was just my play style but I was always making decisions on if I could drop the Counter Top or drop a fatty. It just seamed like you have two different themes that counteract each other in "smash face as fast as you can" and "sit back and control the board while picking away at their life total slowly".

Nihil Credo

11-24-2008, 08:40 PM

Whywhywhywhywhwyhwywhwywhwywhywhwyhwywhwyhwhwhwyhwywhywhwyhwyhwhywhwyhwyhywhywhywhy would you run Spiritmonger over Tarmogoyf? In a deck that runs 18 lands? In a deck that runs Thoughtseize, Deed, Dreadnought and Vision goddamn Charm? In a format where Swords to Plowshares is the removal spell of choice? In what possible universe would the situations where Spiritmonger outperforms Tarmogoyf be more common than those where the reverse happens?

Solknar

11-24-2008, 08:50 PM

@illisius:

the thing that bother me a lot is that the deck is a bye for all deck running cotv.
trinket help to deal with this problem. For playing the deck since one week on mws (my current metagame:), that was one of my most important issue.

also: the deck doesn't need removals(i'm thinking about snuff out of course). unllike team america, all the beatters are quite unstoppable.the deck needs way to find its kill! I tried first predict, and top. but i'm more satisfy with trinket. also, mws is flooded with survival.deck that recurre stp so fast and so easily, that having an eas access to anti yard at the 1 is cool.

I think that the UBx build can't afford themselves to run 3cc spell (although that one of the main reason to splash...), whereas the UB build has no problem to do that.

tell me if I'm wrong :)

Illissius

11-24-2008, 09:12 PM

Needing Trinket Mage to deal with Chalice seems a pretty defensible position to me. I can accept that. (Not that you need me to.)

There are, of course, many other ways of dealing with it, but I can't immediately think of any which are obviously superior.

Frank The Tank

11-24-2008, 10:50 PM

I never have a problem with CotV because I usually drop EE for 0 and wipe them out when I had them main decked. If I didn't run deed I ran 2 main and 2 sided just for that reason. In a CotV type deck match up I put EE's in for deeds and put in K grips taking out Ponder or Thoughtseizes.

I run Spiritmonger over Goyf because it is good late game and will always bitch slap opposing goyfs. Your early turn plays are either Dreadnought or Stalker. I would much rather drop a late game spiritmonger then late game Goyf. And using swords as a reason not to run him is retarded because your always going to be running against swords regardless of what creature you play. The 18 lands don't matter either because you don't tend to drop monger until at least the 8th or 9th round because he is a "backup" plan in case the game drags out. All that plus I am so sick of Goyf I could puke.

Frank The Tank

12-01-2008, 05:57 PM

I plan on running the deck from above (or some form of it) in the Chicago GP in march. My question is how different are meta game sideboards over a "vanilla sideboard" like one that would be needed against all kinds of decks. I am currently running this sideboard with a question mark for the EEs. Does much really change in the Vintage meta game or is it pretty universal?

-Sideboard(15)-
Pithing Needle - 4
Engineered Explosives - 3
Krosan Grips - 4
Tormods Crypt - 4

Captain Hammer

12-07-2008, 09:45 AM

Is there any reason NOT to play 4 Force of Will in this deck.

FoW seems like a nobrainer to be honest, over something like Snuff Out. Yet, some lists don't play it. It slows down combo, the one archeatype faster than Dreadnought. It protects your Dreadnougt from countermagic, bounce and removal. So why not play it?

Illissius

12-07-2008, 09:59 AM

What? I just went over the last two pages and didn't find a single list without Force in it. If you ever see one of these mythical creations, permission to take extreme measures is hereby granted.

Also, you know what's better than playing Force of Will or Snuff Out? Playing Force of Will AND Snuff Out.

Captain Hammer

12-07-2008, 10:03 AM

Lol. The very first list in the very first post doesn't play FoW. :confused:

Request have the guy who posted the OP locked and banned, please. :smile:

Illissius

12-07-2008, 10:04 AM

It also has 56 cards in the maindeck. Coincidence?

Captain Hammer

12-07-2008, 10:07 AM

There are no coincidences. I think the 56 cards is just secret tech to increase consistency.

Frank The Tank

12-07-2008, 04:23 PM

I have been running two Smothers over Snuff Outs because all I see are Goyfs and Bobs. I feel the life loss is too much with running 8 fetch lands and 4 thoughtseizes.

(Hangs his head)
I finally broke down and added 4 goyfs and yes it makes it much better. By the time you drop one the GY removal from Tombstalker doesnt effect it much and it is nice when they kill your first Naught because it usually adds +2/+2 to your gofy and on average I drop them for around 4/5 or 5/6.

Add in the fact that I play Deeds and those bad boys swing for 6 alot of the time. I also took out the vision charms cause they werent as "tech" as I thought.

Granted I don't get out as many turn two Stalkers or naughts anymore but it has a much more solid play style and can go the distance much better.

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ON] Smother

Benie Bederios

12-07-2008, 04:47 PM

Lol. The very first list in the very first post doesn't play FoW. :confused:

Request have the guy who posted the OP locked and banned, please. :smile:

Thanks buddy.:frown:

Anyway, I played a tiny tournament today 31 people and I didn't do so well...

I forgot most of the opponents I played and forgot to take my notes with me.

Match 1: Slide

G1: turn 2 Wasteland a Savannah, turn 3 Stifle Nought, wich just wins.

G2: after hurting his manabase for a while he tried to cast Loam( didn't see it game 1) I brainstorm and see I have double FoW backup for Dreadnought. I daze the Loam. Stifle Nought and he tried to plow it 2 times.

Boarding: -3 Thoughtseize, +3 Winter Orb

1-0-0(2-0)

Match 2: Stax Sebas

G1: I start with Island, he goes firt turn Chalice into my Spell Snare. I waste his land and he can't find a double land. A Tombstalker finishes the Job.

G2: I keep a 1-land hand with Ponder. Doesn't find a second land and loose.

G3: He keeps a 7-land hand. I start with Island, He goes Plain. I Brainstorm and play a Swamp. The plain was his only land for 4/5 turns, so he looses horribly to Stalker beats.

-3 Thoughtseize, +1 Rushing River, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Echoing Truth

2-0-0(4-1)

Match 3: Death and Taxes.

G1: Didn't know what to expect from this matchup. Turns out to be nasty. I resolve a Nought with Daze/FoW backup, but looses it after one beat to double Plow and Oblivion Ring. He get Mangara stuff online and I loose.

G2: Don't remember, something like the first matchup.

-3 Thoughtseize, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Rushing River,+1 Wipe Away( Didn't know how to board)

2-1-0(4-3)

Match 4: Goyf Sligh Hidde

G1: When I walk to the table, he has his deck spread over the table and I see Goyf Sligh. I keep a disruption light, but fast hand and I win fast.

G2: I see him boarding in only 2 Tin Street Hooligans( he just puts them faced up on the table) So I keep a hand wich can beat that and does.

-3 Thoughtseize, +3 Red Elemental BLAst

3-1-0(6-3)

Match 5: Goblins Rogier???

G1: He starts with a turn to Piledriver wich I Snare. That is enough information for me to win.

G2: I lock him out of mana but he resolves a Vial. He slowly builds up to 4 counters and wins with 3 Ringleaders and a Wort, while I draw only counters.

G3: This was a pity. He starts slow and it looks I got the winning hand, when he puts down some beats. I Don't think I can make it but we get eachother to five. Than this happens: Opp hand 4 cards including Siege Gang Commander. 2 Vials( 4 and 1), 1 Ringleaders, 1 Piledriver, 1 Matron a Mountain and a Badlands in play. I have 3 cards in hand, 2 mana open an tapped and a untapped Tombstalker. During his upkeep( before counters are added on Vials) I play Vision Charm changing the Mountains to Islands... He draws attacks, I block Piledriver going to 1 and he scoops and I say thanks...

-3 Thoughtseize, +3 Red Elemental Blast

4-1-0(8-4)

Match 5 MUC( with Sowers)

G1: I'm tired and have to play this though matchup. Turn 3 goes like I Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle, He Counterspell, I Force of Will, he Force of Will, I Stifle on Dreadnought, He Force of Will. We draw for a while and I resolve a Tombstalker wich he Sowers and kill me.

G2: I didn't feel like playing the second match, but I still did, I resolve a second turn Winter Orb, and Stifle Nought turn 3, but forgot his Sowers. He plays his fourth Land and beat me silly.

Boarding: Don't know, something like -1 Ponder, -1 Phyrexian Dreadnought, -1 Vision Charm, -3 Predict, + 3 Dark Confidant, +3 Winter Orb

4-2-0(8-6)

I miss top 4( we played a round more swiss than normal) and end 7th.

Anyway this was the list I used( new in MWS format and Fresh Lemon Taste!!!):

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [GUR] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [GUR] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
3 [OD] Predict
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth

Choices: Spell Snares over Snuff Outs. Didn't expect much aggro-control( there was no Thresh at all!!!) so I went for Snares. 19 lands because I didn't want to get manascrewed and liked to disrupt players some more.

SB was just thrown together... Confidants, because I didn't have Needles and 3 different bounce spells for testing purposes.

Any ideas for the MUC and D&T matchups. As soon as the opponents play rocksolid manabases I just tend to loose. I'm going to try a splash, but don't know wich one yet.

@ Frank the Tank: The power of this deck is that it can slap down turn 2/3 Noughts and Stalkers. What you do is to take a step beack and try to go for a slower aproach. This doesn't need to be bad, but Deed with 8 >2CC spells and 18 lands is troublesome. On top of that the tricks I pull with Charm are so divers it makes me sick. The most powerfull tool is, that it protects Dreadnought against everything( Except Grip). Also Daze looses his power faster if you don't run Wasteland. If you are destine to go in that direction Try adding more lands at least.

BB

Frank The Tank

12-07-2008, 05:19 PM

It just usually seams that if I slap down naught or stalker turn 2 I have to have at least 2/3 counter back ups to keep him out against Swords, smother, snuff, etc.

Now if I go though an attrition war and loose my naught on turn two Im not that upset because I have the goyfs and stalkers for backup and they have already used up all their removal.

Plus I can't count the number of times my naught has been K gripped lol. If they are running green expect to see those coming out in full force.

Before I added in the smothers I had a lot of problems with Bobs and no way to remove them. Either I had to drop a deed and blow it just for him (giant waste of mana) or he would just sit there and they would out draw me and win. Having the pinpoint removal is nice for problematic creatures and against those random.decs.

On MWS I was playing against a sliver deck of all things and smother was an all star against his Sedge Sliver.

Captain Hammer

12-07-2008, 06:06 PM

Both Misdirection and Lightning Greaves seem like solid options if you're worried about removal.

Lightning Greaves also adds haste and speeds up your clock by a full turn. I would atleast sideboard in this beast against Grips.

Frank The Tank

12-07-2008, 06:13 PM

Lightning greeves wouldn't speed you up because you have to use the 2 mana on turn to to get it out instead of playing the naught/stifle turn two. Also it only takes two turns to kill with naught and in response to you equipping it they can just K grip it. Misdirection would also be a bad choice due to split second and getting even more cards out of your hand along side force.

Captain Hammer

12-08-2008, 05:07 AM

If you're worried about seeing multiples of FoW alongside Misdirection...

you can always pitch Misdirection to Force or viceversa (there's boatloads of situations where Misdirection would be far superior to Force). So that's not a very good reason.

Benie Bederios

12-08-2008, 06:47 AM

Ahwahwahwa I can't follow this dicussion.

It just usually seams that if I slap down naught or stalker turn 2 I have to have at least 2/3 counter back ups to keep him out against Swords, smother, snuff, etc.

Now if I go though an attrition war and loose my naught on turn two Im not that upset because I have the goyfs and stalkers for backup and they have already used up all their removal.

Plus I can't count the number of times my naught has been K gripped lol. If they are running green expect to see those coming out in full force.

Before I added in the smothers I had a lot of problems with Bobs and no way to remove them. Either I had to drop a deed and blow it just for him (giant waste of mana) or he would just sit there and they would out draw me and win. Having the pinpoint removal is nice for problematic creatures and against those random.decs.

On MWS I was playing against a sliver deck of all things and smother was an all star against his Sedge Sliver.

What's your point exaclty? You say what we have been saying the time. That we try to protect one thread, normally the Dreadnought. If he dies we finish it of with Tombstalker. Because of most of the people found 8 critters to few alot of players start playing Goyf. Nothing new here right?

I rarely see my Dreadnought Gripped. At least not after beating for 12. Keep them of mana or try to Seize it out of there hand is the trick. Running into a Grip is very bad.

True Snuff Out is one of the weaker slots... I found it nice to stop a Goyf or even Lackey with it. But if you see alot of black I can understand it.

Both Misdirection and Lightning Greaves seem like solid options if you're worried about removal.

Lightning Greaves also adds haste and speeds up your clock by a full turn. I would atleast sideboard in this beast against Grips.

Both doesn't deal with Grip as he said. Greaves doesn't even stop instant removal( allthough you can play around both with Vision Charm, but requires alot of setup). More counters doesn't work that good either. You only have 4/6 cards in hand when you have played Dreadnought. Playing 11 or 13/14 counters isn't a signifcant difference.

Lightning greeves wouldn't speed you up because you have to use the 2 mana on turn to to get it out instead of playing the naught/stifle turn two. Also it only takes two turns to kill with naught and in response to you equipping it they can just K grip it. Misdirection would also be a bad choice due to split second and getting even more cards out of your hand along side force.

True.. I think he was talking about removal in general. Playing around Grip with Greaves in play si possible as I said, with Vision Charm. I don't think the card is that great though. Playing Goyf is just better.

If you're worried about seeing multiples of FoW alongside Misdirection...

you can always pitch Misdirection to Force or viceversa (there's boatloads of situations where Misdirection would be far superior to Force). So that's not a very good reason.

Allthough it's true, the deck playes enough counters as it is. No need to play another pitchcounter. You burning away your hand fast enough already. After Nought I have 15 counters and 3 discard spells. Good luck hitting my Dreadnought.

My next Tournament is 4 Januari. This is the list I'm going to test for now.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [GUR] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [GUR] Swamp
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 [OD] Predict
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 6 [GUR] Island

Reasons:

Green splash stricktly for Goyf... Need another beater and will be either this or Sea Drake... Thoughtseize was my worst slot and got boarded out the most.

The sideboard is undecided... I probably keep Winter Orb over Dark Confidant. The rest could be Krosan Grip, Trygon Predator or even Pernicious Deed.

I keep you posted

BB

Frank The Tank

12-08-2008, 06:09 PM

Benie Bederios

12-08-2008, 07:04 PM

Why do you feel that thoughtseize is the worst card? Although I do tend to side these out once and a while, I side out ponder more often though.

In regard to your side board, I guess the blue blasts are for goblins. When do you find yourself sliding in the Winter Orbs?

Are the islands for Price of Progress, wastelands, and/or Back to Basics?

I don't know, it is between Thoughtseize and Spell Snare. In testing Spell Snare was the better card. I didnt find anything usefull with Seize. I'm going to test the day after tomorrow and will use a split card and see which one turns out to be better.

Blue Blasts are against Goyf Sligh, Burn and Goblins and to a lesser extend Dragon Stompy. It hits quite some matchups wich is nice and it makes up for the fact opponents will play Tin Street Hooligans and that sort of things.

Winter Orbs come in against control with solid manabases( MUC and Uw(b)Landstill) there not that great, but I have no idea what to do else. What is worse for those matchups, Confidant or Winter Orb? Or do you got another idea?

The Islands( now only 1) are for Back to Basics and Wasteland normally. I like to fetch out my basics first. With this manabase I can cast all spells except Goyf of basic lands.

BB

EDIT: Why isn't this deck in Established, since it has a Primer? Who do we need to contact?

Frank The Tank

12-09-2008, 07:20 PM

Captain Hammer

12-11-2008, 12:43 PM

I don't know, it is between Thoughtseize and Spell Snare. In testing Spell Snare was the better card. I didnt find anything usefull with Seize. I'm going to test the day after tomorrow and will use a split card and see which one turns out to be better.

EDIT: Why isn't this deck in Established, since it has a Primer? Who do we need to contact?

Thoughtseize actually does something. It takes out your opponents FoW or Swords or Smother or whatever card it is that will counter or kill your Dreadnought/Tombstalker/Goyf before it kills your opponent.

It's one of the better cards in the deck. Spell Snare is very limited in it's use. It doesn't counter FoW, StP or many of the cards that actually stop Dreadnought from resolving.

And Ponder is only there to help you find your threats. It's a lot less useful in a build like yours since you play both 11-12 threats, not 8.

P.S: I do agree with you that this deck deserves to be in the established forum. There's a pretty stable list, a primer, a lot of discussion, and the deck is an absolute monster.

klaus

12-11-2008, 01:00 PM

www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [GUR] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [GUR] Swamp
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
// Spells
3 [OD] Predict
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
/ Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth[/CODE]

I thought a lot about Dread-Stalker.dec lately.
And I think the land disruption suite from TA (read: sinkhole) is the way to go.
I don't like Predict in that list because it's a controlish card that in no way supports your fast-kill plan, since it gives your opponent too much time.

Sinkhole on the other hand will grant you timewalks and can also keep your opponent off green mana (Grip anyone).
In consequence you'd definitely need the 4th Underground Sea.

Benie Bederios

12-12-2008, 06:27 AM

I just have never been a fan of Spell Snare. Sure its good for goyfs, bobs, etc but I use Seize alot for wrath of gods, swords, K grips(expecially) etc. Blue blasts sounds like a good idea but my meta game is swimming in "threshold" hell with every type of variant you could imagine.

I personally don't have any trouble with control because you make them burn though their counters so fast that I always tend to resolve a threat and once it hits the table they are SoL. I usually side in Needle for Tops and Shackles and K Grips for shackles.

I tend to drop a deed on turn three just so it says out there and they are amazing vers back to basics, O rings, etc. Again K grips also come in handy here.

Can you explain how you burn through there hand if you only have 8 spells they need to counter? The just sit and wait until you try to force trough a beater...

I played redbased decks twice so I won't cut the BEB, but it is a metagame choice( wich should be the purpose of a SB.

I don't know, if you drop a turn 3 Deed, you have to force through a kill condition when your opponent can have 4 mana out. This is a bad plan, they could Counterspell twice, counterspell+plow and try a Wrath of God next turn. Hymn would be better because it gets you CA.

Thoughtseize actually does something. It takes out your opponents FoW or Swords or Smother or whatever card it is that will counter or kill your Dreadnought/Tombstalker/Goyf before it kills your opponent.

It's one of the better cards in the deck. Spell Snare is very limited in it's use. It doesn't counter FoW, StP or many of the cards that actually stop Dreadnought from resolving.

And Ponder is only there to help you find your threats. It's a lot less useful in a build like yours since you play both 11-12 threats, not 8.

P.S: I do agree with you that this deck deserves to be in the established forum. There's a pretty stable list, a primer, a lot of discussion, and the deck is an absolute monster.

True, that Seize does something... but in my last tournament it did not enough. I will keep testing it instead of Spell Snare and Predict.

@ Ponder: I need to play it because of Predict... And I don't found another option for Predict. Confidant is to dangerous MD, Night's Whisper and Hymn are Sorcery. The next reason I play it is because it makes your Stalkers Cheaper and Goys stronger( it's my only Sorcery).

I thought a lot about Dread-Stalker.dec lately.
And I think the land disruption suite from TA (read: sinkhole) is the way to go.
I don't like Predict in that list because it's a controlish card that in no way supports your fast-kill plan, since it gives your opponent too much time.

Sinkhole on the other hand will grant you timewalks and can also keep your opponent off green mana (Grip anyone).
In consequence you'd definitely need the 4th Underground Sea.

I've tested Sinkholes and didn't like it... The results weren't that bad, but it didn't help my weak matchups...

How is your manabase holding up btw( the one from the openingpost)? It was used by more players. I tried it(with an additional Wasteland, I play 19 lands) and couldn't make it work.

I'm going to try this manabase:

3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [GUR] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [GUR] Swamp
4 [R] Tropical Island

Is 4 Trops to many? I'm thinking of dropping a Tropical Island for an Island/Swamp/Fetch. Any of you guys good in building a rocksolid 19/20 land manabase?

BB

Frank The Tank

12-12-2008, 01:19 PM

With me running 4 goyfs and 4 deeds main deck and 4 K grips side I do think that running four Trops is too much. I personally only run 3 with a basic forest for late game K grips (if moon etc has resolved).

I wonder if I would be able to play 4 wastelands while still keeping a decent manabase for 3 colors. I guess I don't need green early game but getting the two black on turn two while also having some blue for my cantrips could be messy.

Plus I only run 18 lands and would have no idea what to cut if I had to up it to 20.

Arohtar

12-15-2008, 05:44 AM

Hi!!

I've been reading this post for a while and finally I played the deck last Saturday making Top8 (5th place) in a 32 person tournament. This my current build:

4x Stifle
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Brainstorm
3x Vision Charm
4x Sinkhole
4x Daze
3x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will
4x Tombstalker

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Island
3x Swamp

// Side
4x Extirpate
4x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Gaea's Blessing

Pairings:
- Stax 2-1
- AFoWnity 2-1
- 4C Landstill 1-1
- MUC 2-0
- Elves! 0-2
- Burn 2-0
- Enchantress 1-2

As Klaus said before, Sinkhole is the way to go. The land destruction pack is just insane. And I think that UBG gives us flexibility but UB gives us stability and I prefer this one. Anyway both versions are great.

PD: Excuse my poor English :S

Captain Hammer

12-15-2008, 12:24 PM

IMO, that's the best build of the deck I've seen.

You're right, Wasteland + Sinkhole + Stifle is insane.

Hell, it might be worth it to replace Vision Charm with Trickbind to make the LD package that much more potent.

Arohtar

12-15-2008, 01:49 PM

Vision Charm is a must in this deck since it saves your Dreadnoughts from Swords to Plowshares, Pernicious Deed, Powder Keg, Sower of Temptation, Guilded Drake, Oblivion Ring, Smother... (the evil-cards-that-make-you-cry-list is huge), it's also a turn faster than Trickbind, it can help with Tombstalker too and the ability to change a land type sometimes make a difference against some decks as it gaves you an extra turn that it's very important if you have a Dreadnought in play.

Trickbind is great but in my opinion Vision Charm is better.

Illissius

12-15-2008, 02:50 PM

Yeah, that looks like a very solid build. I think I'd rather have Crypts than Extirpate in the board, and also some way to deal with Counterbalance, but otherwise great. 18 lands was enough?

Oh, and more fetchlands over basics. Helps with :b::b: and helps with Tombstalker.

Concallesco

12-15-2008, 04:58 PM

Arohtar

12-15-2008, 05:14 PM

@Illissius: 18 lands is the perfect number for me. I never feel screwed but maybe in the UBG version 20 is better. Extirpate vs Crypt is a hard decision. I prefer Extirpate because with Extirpate + Engineered Explosives + Phyrexian Dreadnought (remeber that you can let it die to remove the Bridges from Below) I feel safe vs Ichorid and Extirpate is awesome vs Landstill to remove threats. You're right about fetchlands so I'll add a Flooded Strand and a Bloodstained Mire.

@Concallesco: Portent looks pretty good I'll try it too!!!

klaus

12-15-2008, 05:15 PM

If we're going to do the Waste+Stifle/Trickbind+Sinkhole like Team America, then could we also (as I saw in the Team America thread) replace ponders with portents? I've tested a little of using that to screw over the opponent's mana more, and I like it, but maybe it's only a win-more card. Have any of you tried it?

Dreadstalker is getting closer and closer to current TA lists.
I'm aware that this is due to getting inspired by "stuff that wins". Both decks have a similar approach anyway...
I suggest comparing the 2 decks for an indepth analysis:
TA:
- weaker mana base
- more efficient/ stable threat suite (no 2 card combos neaded)
- better SB options
- creature removal is mandatory
- mainstream deck by now
- 50% of the threads are chumblockable till infinity (Goyf :wink: )

DS:
- better mana base
- less stable threat suite (2 card combo)
- faster threats, though
- fewer SB options
- creature removal is optional
- not so mainstreamy :wink:

Yeah that's pretty shallow so far, but it's meant as a starting point, so feel free to throw in your thoughts, too.

Captain Hammer

12-17-2008, 03:34 PM

I honestly prefer where the deck started from.

I recall that it started as a black splash version of dreadstill abusing Duress and Tombstalker but quickly changed so much that dreadstill players asked that it be moved to a new thread.

I was wondering if anyone has tried putting the deck where it was back before.

Abusing both Dreadnought and Tombstalker, along with Standstill and Mishra's Factory. Basically retrying that whole BU Dreadstill version.

Illissius

12-17-2008, 03:38 PM

Actually, it started the way it is in the original post. It didn't evolve from Dreadstill and never had Standstills in it. I just posted it in the Dreadstill thread because it seemed like the closest fit and they were discussing vaguely similar ideas at the time.

Captain Hammer

12-17-2008, 10:31 PM

I am under the impression that people were trying splashing black in dreadstill back then as well, some for confidant and thoughtseize, before this list was ever posted.

Frank The Tank

12-18-2008, 06:04 AM

Benie Bederios

12-18-2008, 07:18 AM

Regardless the deck is starting to "branch off' on its own in the following versions

"Original with mostly Blue and Black Splash"
"Team America LD"
"3 Color / Green Splash"

Think that's about it. I think it comes down to personal play style and likes more then anything else.

I don't agree...

The only difference between the original and the LD version is Sinkhole. The original version is very close both versions. The difference is only Tarmogoyf or Sinkhole.

On top it comes down more to the meta, instead of playstyle. I play the 3-color version now, because it helps my bad matchups where the Sinkhole version won't do to much... I'm rewriting the primer and adress all versions of the deck.

BB

Illissius

12-18-2008, 10:50 AM

I am under the impression that people were trying splashing black in dreadstill back then as well, some for confidant and thoughtseize, before this list was ever posted.

Certainly possible. Wasn't an influence. If you want a Dreadnought deck with Standstills but without Tombstalkers, then that's Dreadstill and belongs in the Dreadstill thread. If you want one with both Standstills and Tombstalkers, then I'm not sure what the hell that is or where it belongs. (Or if you want one with neither, then that's Dreaded Fish.)

scrumdogg

12-25-2008, 11:08 AM

Thanks buddy.:frown:

Anyway, I played a tiny tournament today 31 people and I didn't do so well...

Match 2: Stax Sebas

G1: I start with Island, he goes firt turn Chalice into my Spell Snare. I waste his land and he can't find a double land. A Tombstalker finishes the Job.

G2: I keep a 1-land hand with Ponder. Doesn't find a second land and loose.

G3: He keeps a 7-land hand. I start with Island, He goes Plain. I Brainstorm and play a Swamp. The plain was his only land for 4/5 turns, so he looses horribly to Stalker beats.

-3 Thoughtseize, +1 Rushing River, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Echoing Truth

2-0-0(4-1)

Match 5: Goblins Rogier???

G1: He starts with a turn to Piledriver wich I Snare. That is enough information for me to win.

G2: I lock him out of mana but he resolves a Vial. He slowly builds up to 4 counters and wins with 3 Ringleaders and a Wort, while I draw only counters.

G3: This was a pity. He starts slow and it looks I got the winning hand, when he puts down some beats. I Don't think I can make it but we get eachother to five. Than this happens: Opp hand 4 cards including Siege Gang Commander. 2 Vials( 4 and 1), 1 Ringleaders, 1 Piledriver, 1 Matron a Mountain and a Badlands in play. I have 3 cards in hand, 2 mana open an tapped and a untapped Tombstalker. During his upkeep( before counters are added on Vials) I play Vision Charm changing the Mountains to Islands... He draws attacks, I block Piledriver going to 1 and he scoops and I say thanks...

-3 Thoughtseize, +3 Red Elemental Blast

4-1-0(8-4)BB

Couple things I'm not clear on... Did he keep a 7 land hand (if so, how was Plains his only land?) or did you keep a seven land hand (and if so, how did you drop a Tombstalker in any relevant amount of time, furthermore, why would you keep a 7 land hand?). Also, in the Goblin match up, Game 3, you are dead if your opponent thinks at all. He ramps Vial to 5, during your upkeep he Vials in SGC and shoots you in the face with a token. Also, unless you have a tapped Tombstalker, your untapped Tombstalker traded with his 5/2 Piledriver...how exactly were you going to kill him? Goyf wouldn't cut it anyway with Vials open (and loaded...). Gratz on the win & all, but it seems like your opponents weren't real high calibre. Any information on these scenarios would be appreciated.

Benie Bederios

12-27-2008, 09:43 AM

Couple things I'm not clear on... Did he keep a 7 land hand (if so, how was Plains his only land?) or did you keep a seven land hand (and if so, how did you drop a Tombstalker in any relevant amount of time, furthermore, why would you keep a 7 land hand?). Also, in the Goblin match up, Game 3, you are dead if your opponent thinks at all. He ramps Vial to 5, during your upkeep he Vials in SGC and shoots you in the face with a token. Also, unless you have a tapped Tombstalker, your untapped Tombstalker traded with his 5/2 Piledriver...how exactly were you going to kill him? Goyf wouldn't cut it anyway with Vials open (and loaded...). Gratz on the win & all, but it seems like your opponents weren't real high calibre. Any information on these scenarios would be appreciated.

The Staxx player. He was a very bad player... He kept a 7 card hand with 1 Plain in it... I dropped the Dreadnought turn 4, I believe with 3 Fetch, Brainstorm, Predict. Not missing a land-drop. I also believe he only played 23! lands or so.

The Goblin player was quite good, and he was quite pissed that he lost.. he should have won. I had 2 Tombstalkers out( 1 tapped and 1 untapped). But he could win anyway, that's why I said thanks when he scooped. Robert( he played on the worlds for The Netherlands) was sitting next to him and told him what he did wrong. If he just tapped his mountain when I played Charm, ramped Vial to five and dropped SGC and shoot me to three he won. Or he could do it on my upkeep. He was even more pissed when he found out my DCI ranking was alot lower then his.

BB

Frank The Tank

12-27-2008, 10:09 PM

Just got back from a 40 person Legacy tourney at Monster Den in Minneapolis with the following build:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ON] Smother

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ON] Smother
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

I went 4-2 with the following match ups.

Match 1 vers "Not quite survival" aka Fairy Thresh with squee and survival
1-2
I had no idea he was survival as I didnt see it all three games and i didn't see a single naught at all. Basicly almost looked like a mirror match.

Game 1. Opening had of 5 lands, a Force and Thoughseize so i mull to 6. He gets out goyf turn two with bob turn 3. I don't see a single deed or smother.

Game 2. I get out a turn 2 goyf. Smother 3 of his goyf (he just kept drawing them). I deed wipe late game and drop a stalker FTW

Game 3. Opening had of 6 spells (2 ponders and a brainstorm) with only a basic forest in hand so i mull to 6. Close long game. I end up loosing to the counter fairy countering my goyf with 2 metavaults on his side. He beats me down with the 1/1 flying.

Forgot what I sided in for this game but over all if it wasn't for the mulls I feel I would have had this.

Match 2 vrs "Dreadstill"
2-1
Game 1. Early goyf and he never resolves a standstill
Sided out 4 Deeds, 3 Ponder, 2 Thoughtseize. Put in 4 Needles, 4 Kgrips, and 1 smother.

Game 2. He pops 2 standstills and has 2 goyfs on the board. Can't keep up

Game 3. Turn on needle naming Top, goyf turn 2, Kgriped his EE on turn 3.

As long as you can stop that standstill from popping your golden.

Match 3 vrs "Land Still"
2-0
Game 1. Goyf beats with stifle / naught in hand waiting if i needed it. I stifled his fetch turn one and he never really recovered.
Out: 4 Thought Seize, 4 Deeds, 1 Ponder. In: 4 Needle, 4 Kgrip, 1 smother

Game 2. Got goyf out early. Dazed and forced 2 standstills. Raced him.

It seemed that once I got a goyf resolved they tended to stand on the board. I thought I would be seeing Swords out the wazzoo but didn't see it all day and no bounce either.

Match 4 vrs "Red Splash Thresh" Was running Fire/Ice. Red blasts sideboard, Magus of the moon. Looked pretty solid.
0-2
Game 1. He got double goyf out early and stifled my deed.
Out: 3 Deeds. In:Smother and 2 EEs
Game 2. He Stifled my fetch, played a magus of the moon. I floated 2 mana for the smother in my hand which he dazed. Game over.

Match 5 vrs "Goblins"
2-0
All i wrote down was that I sided out 4 Thoughtseizes, and 3 tomb stalkers and put in 4 needles "for vial", 2 EEs and 1 Smother. I vaguely remember having some goyfts out for the win and smashing turn 3 with naught.

Match 6 vrs "Team America"
2-0
Game 1: He sinkholed turn 2 but i get out naught on turn 3. Game over
Out: 3 Deeds. In: Smother, and 2 EEs

Summery:
Over all I did much better then the last time when I didn't have goyf. Never once did I find that the tombstalkers hindered my goyf in anyway. I tended to side out the deeds or thoughtseizes alot. I am thinking of main decking the 4th smother and only running 3 deeds. I sided out the thoughtseizes when I went against goblins etc because of the life loss but looking back that may have been a misplay.

I didn't stay for the top 8 as I had to get to work.

I saw some Belcher, aggro loam, burn, dredge/bridge, etc. Played against belcher like 5 times just to test the deck out. All I can say is mull until you get a thoughtseize(if your on the play) or Force of Will(if your on the draw). A couple of times I was on the play and dropped a turn 1 needed naming belcher and he would just empty the warrens on me instead.

Illissius

12-27-2008, 10:58 PM

12 threats looks pretty sexy. Latest completely untested list for your consideration:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
SB: 4 Sinkhole
SB: 4/3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3/4 Jace Beleren
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Snuff Out

Cutting one Charm is probably fine, but I'm loathe to cut more, because you really do want to be able to consistently keep your Dreadnoughts into play -- and being able to use that Stifle for other purposes is pretty cool also.

I've been wondering what to board against control decks, beyond Sinkholes and Grips where relevant, especially against control decks with lots of removal -- lots of inexpensive removal. You'd have a difficult time beating them with tempo, because even if you keep them to only one or two mana that's still enough for them to cast removal on your few threats, buy themselves a ton of time, and get back in the game. I came up with Jace Beleren. (The fact that I also put Jace Beleren into Landstill is, I must assure you, entirely incidental.) Once you've slowed them down with all the mana denial, if you're still unable to kill them with creatures, burying them in card advantage with a Planeswalker (which the vast majority of their removal doesn't affect, and none of it for less than three mana) and then killing them with creatures seems nearly as good.

I have to say I'm actually sceptical that 18 lands is enough, especially with Team America running 20, but everyone so far has reported that it is, so I'm not one to argue with the data. (Which I admit is partly because being able to add 4 Tarmogoyfs while keeping the rest of the spellbase almost entirely intact is really awesome, and I wouldn't like having to lose that.)

Frank The Tank

12-28-2008, 12:07 AM

I run 18 lands and not one time did I have a problem with it. I think Team America runs 20 lands is because of the wastelands.

I hear what you are saying about vision charm and naught but once he hits the board he either wins you the game outright or is a huge lightning rod and it lets your goyfs gets though. The reason why I originally took them out is because late game they are just horrible and i found myself holding 2 or 3 in my hand with no naught in play or in sight.

I will say that Goyf was the all star in this tourney. It seemed that if I either dropped a turn 2 naught or goyf I won. It also seemed that every time I would side in smother so I think I am going to put that last smother in the main and only run 3 deeds main. Then for the extra SB slot add a 3rd EE. That way I can just swap the EEs for the deeds when I play against storm/token decks.

I tend to only run 11 threats with 4 goyfs, 4 naughts, and 3 tombstalkers because I have yet to be able to play 2 stalkers in a game or needed too. Then again you play vision charm and thus can library dump later in the game for that 2nd stalker. To each his own I guess (is it each or eat? I don't remember lol)

Captain Hammer

01-04-2009, 06:48 PM

Does anyone have any thoughts on this build?

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

I've always found Misdirection to be exceptionally useful while protecting large threats like Goyfs and Dreadnoughts, winning counter wars, or bouncing back Sinkholes and Hymns. I think that in this particular deck, it's generally more useful than Snuff Out.

Otherwise, it's a fairly typical build.

I'm also wondering, now that we're in the three colors territory, would a couple of City of Brass be the worst thing in the world to help me cut back on the budget?

For instance a manabase like this perhaps...

1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

Illissius

01-04-2009, 07:29 PM

CoB looks okay, as does Misdirection (of course depending on metagame and such). Running neither removal nor Thoughtseize looks dangerous though. I would run Wasteland but not basics. I don't know why everyone started cutting the Wastelands. Stifle is significantly worse without it.

Captain Hammer

01-05-2009, 01:05 AM

I think it was because we're now only running 18 lands.

Still I could see making room for 2 Wastelands if you think it's worth it.

What lands would you cut for it, the island and a CoB, or something else?

Illissius

01-05-2009, 05:59 AM

Benie Bederios

01-05-2009, 08:02 AM

I would run 20 lands with 4 Wastelands before 18 lands without. 3C Threshold gets away with 18 lands including 4 Wastes, and our curve is similar, with the notable exception of Tombstalker. But people haven't reported trouble with the 4 Wastes in 18 lands package either, so I dunno. Add more if you feel it's necessary, certainly, but start with 4 Wastes in there and then add more colored lands rather than the other way around.

I actually play 19 lands with 4 Wasteland. I started with 18 lands with 3 Wastlands, but just changed it to 19, right before a Tournament and I liked that alot.

Your list looks quite fun Illusius. But there is far to much land-hate here to play such a manabase. I'm testing an UB version with Sinkhole, but the results haven't been as good as with my UBg list, without Sinkhole.

Btw, I will complete the primer by Friday btw.

BB

Frank The Tank

01-05-2009, 09:52 PM

When it comes to the misdirections sure they are nice but they are so hard to run along side FoW especially in a deck that burns though cards so fast. I think if anything they are made more for that type of sit back and wait deck like mono blue control.

Gonna try the wastelands on MWS and see what I get.

Edit: Now granted ive only played against 4 different decks but so far it was Belcher combo, Goblins, Red/Green Price of Progess, and mono blue. No joke. Adding in those wastelands were not a good idea in any of those match ups. It wouldn't be that bad if I could side them out for something else but I refuse to assign 4 cards in my SB for lands. Are they good against land still, thresh etc? Sure but they are not good enough to have them in main unless your deck revolves around it with Sinkholes and Stifles(without having to use them on Naught)

Ill do some more testing but so far it isnt looking good. On a plus side I only had to mulligan one time when I only had a wasteland in my hand and no more land.

SuperBean

01-06-2009, 12:40 AM

I have a few questions about this deck, this may sound completely uneducated because I haven't read this thread fully... But oh well.

What makes this better then Team America? Other then the fact that Tarmogoyf and Stalker work against each other and Dreadnought and Tombstalker have better synergies together.

Also, what makes Dreadnought a better early game drop then Tarmogoyf? I understand that he is a 12/12 Trample for the cost of 2 or 3 mana depending on which Stifle effect you use, Trickbind or Stifle. But you have to have both cards in hand in order to use him. Where as Tarmogoyf you can play from your hand for a consistent 2 mana. Also, if your Stifle effect is countered you loose 2 cards in your hand... It just seems worse to me.

The last thing that I wanted to mention was that I never saw in any of the decklists where any ways to dig up Dreadnought other then dig up a Stifle unless either of them are in hand.. Where as with Goyf again, you can just drop it versus waiting for another card. I understand that Stifle is great on it's own as well but when you get your Dreadnought you won't have a way to use it.

Anyway, those are my questions.. Hopefully I get a response. Thanks in advance :)

Captain Hammer

01-06-2009, 03:38 AM

3C Threshold gets away with 18 lands including 4 Wastes, and our curve is similar, with the notable exception of Tombstalker.

I think you mean two color Thresh. None of the 3c Thresh lists I've seen play Wasteland. Mind pointing me to the one you're referring to.

I actually play 19 lands with 4 Wasteland. I started with 18 lands with 3 Wastlands, but just changed it to 19, right before a Tournament and I liked that alot.

Your list looks quite fun Illusius. But there is far to much land-hate here to play such a manabase. I'm testing an UB version with Sinkhole, but the results haven't been as good as with my UBg list, without Sinkhole.

Yep, I too found UBg without Sinkhole to perform much better than UB without Goyf. I'm not sold on the whole Wasteland + Sinkhole strategy here. It would be nice if we could squeeze in 4 Wasteland, 4 Sinkhole, 4 Stifle along with the 12 threat package, and maybe even Trickbinds in place of Vision Charm to seal the mana denial strategy, but I just don't think it's doable or worthwhile. The deck would be giving up too much.

I guess two Wasteland against random Maze of Ith's and Tabernacles is reasonable.

But there is simply no reason to force yourself to squeze in more than 2 Wastelands into this deck if you're not playing Sinkhole. Threshold plays 3 colors like us, it plays 18 land and lots of cantrips, and it doesn't play Wasteland. And this deck's manabase has to work harder than Thresh's because it has to support BB for Tombstalker even though the deck is primarily blue. So I don't how or why we expect to be squeezing in Wastelands when Thresh doesn't.

The problem with 4 Wastelands in a build with 18-19 land is, you still need to support three colors, along with Daze, Snuff Out, and all without getting color screwed by a single Wasteland.

Everybody and their mother is playing Wastelands. So if you're playing only two green sources, both wastable, and absolutely no nonbasics, you're just asking to get color screwed by an opponent's Wasteland.

Anyways, I would like to see more of your manabases because I think mine could be improved upon.

Benie Bederios

01-06-2009, 04:45 AM

Frank the Tank:

I really liked the 4 Wastelands in my build. It punishes most aggro-control decks( Thresh and Slivers) and it's your weapon to win the control matchups. With Stifle it can randomly win games. Even against TES it can do something stopping there few initial manasources( allthough it isn't that strong). Against multicolored decks it is nice to waste the color that plays the most removal before casting the Dreadnought. I would test it in your own meta though, if Wasteland is weak, cut it; It's a metagame call.

Superbeam:

The advantages of Dreadnought are quite clear. First of all it wins the game. Goyf Stalls are quite problematic for Team America, forced to counter the Tarmogoyf or kill it. This deck just trample over it and can use it's counterspells to stop the removal. Second it wins the game fast Goyf can take some time to grow big enough to really put up a clock. Dreadnought beats 24 damage in 2 turns.

Second it is a metagame choice. In a very developed meta Team America is a very strong choice. But in my meta Team America doesn't work that well, because there are quite some decks wich can ignore the mana-denial( lots basics few fetches). A friend of mine played Team America, but lost horribly in Tournaments.

Captain Hammer:

Please do your homework before posting.

A) There are tons of Thresh decks that run Wasteland, look at Thrash or Ubg Tempothresh. And it are the decks with Stifles.

B) Vision Charm is manadenial. I won games by changing Plains to something else so my opponent couldn't cast Oblivion Ring and Wrath of God or changing Mountains to Islands to win a turn against Goblins.

C) You only play 3 green MD spells, why would you need more green sources. You can play around Wasteland you know. And your posting a list without Wastelands but with even less basics than Klaus or me.

BB

Illissius

01-06-2009, 10:40 AM

The reason you want Wasteland, again, is to make Stifle good. With both, you sometimes get the draws where you completely screw your opponent out of mana and just beat them down (even with 'only' a Tarmogoyf). Without this potential, if Stifle is only random utility when it's not comboing a Dreadnought, it's a lot weaker.

I think you mean two color Thresh. None of the 3c Thresh lists I've seen play Wasteland. Mind pointing me to the one you're referring to.

For example. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=306585&postcount=117)

What makes this better then Team America? Other then the fact that Tarmogoyf and Stalker work against each other and Dreadnought and Tombstalker have better synergies together.

The two decks are extremely similar. They are at most two cards apart, many times only one, and occasionally that one card is in the sideboard. Which is better depends on the metagame -- basically, on whether Dreadnought is good in it.

Also, what makes Dreadnought a better early game drop then Tarmogoyf? I understand that he is a 12/12 Trample for the cost of 2 or 3 mana depending on which Stifle effect you use, Trickbind or Stifle. But you have to have both cards in hand in order to use him. Where as Tarmogoyf you can play from your hand for a consistent 2 mana. Also, if your Stifle effect is countered you loose 2 cards in your hand... It just seems worse to me.

If you'll notice, many of the recent lists are running both Dreadnought and Tarmogoyf. The reason Dreadnought is good, when it's good, is that against some decks (such as Goyf Sligh, Goblins, and Aggro Loam), if you get a turn two Dreadnought, you pretty much win the game; you might have to deal with one removal spell, if that. Tarmogoyf doesn't do this. Against other decks, Dreadnought is still dangerous, because they have a maximum of two turns to find and resolve an answer to it, which can sometimes be difficult, when you're actively trying to stop them, even if the deck does run multiple answers. In other words, you can't keep Dreadnought on the board forever, but two turns is sometimes doable. (Tarmogoyf can, however, be better against these decks, because it never does a two-for-one on you even if you don't manage to protect it. But again, run both. Or run Team America if Dreadnought is a liability against enough of the metagame to make it bad.)

The last thing that I wanted to mention was that I never saw in any of the decklists where any ways to dig up Dreadnought other then dig up a Stifle unless either of them are in hand.. Where as with Goyf again, you can just drop it versus waiting for another card. I understand that Stifle is great on it's own as well but when you get your Dreadnought you won't have a way to use it.

This is why the deck runs 7-8 ways to combo with Dreadnought. Because Dreadnought is a whole fucking lot better when it's a 12/12 on the board than when it's a dead card in your hand. 7-8 plus Brainstorm and Stifle is enough find one of them reasonably consistently when you need it. (While if you don't have the Dreadnought, Stifle denies their mana, and Vision Charm can also power out a Tombstalker, or pseudo-Chant them for a turn at the worst, and both of them pitch to Force. And furthermore you have Brainstorms and fetchlands.)

Anyway, those are my questions.. Hopefully I get a response. Thanks in advance :)
They are good first questions, so I'm glad to answer them.

SuperBean

01-06-2009, 03:00 PM

Thanks for the answers, I'd be more then willing to give the deck a try in some upcoming tournaments. I'll be sure to let everyone know how it works out. :smile:

Captain Hammer

01-16-2009, 05:38 PM

Just wanted to post the build that I'm playing now...

// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [UN] Underground Sea
2 [UN] Tropical Island
1 [UN] Bayou
1 [ON] Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [VI] Vision Charm
3 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Snuff Out
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

One way that you know this is a solid build is by how similar it is to Team America...

If you want to build Team American all you have to do is...

-1 [ON] Island
-3 [VI] Vision Charm
-4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

+4 [TMP] Wasteland
+4 [UN] Sinkhole

I'm even considering just playing the exact same manabase as Team America (Wastelands and all) so the only difference between the two decks is Sinkhole vs. Dreadnought+Vision Charm.

Basically, you're opting to forego the land destruction route to play an additional kickass threat, a 12/12 trampler.

Frank The Tank

01-16-2009, 07:43 PM

Captain Hammer

01-16-2009, 08:58 PM

For Captain Hammer (BTW i followed your link and Dr. Horriable was funny as hell, plus NPH and Nathan Fillion are the shit)

I run 3 Tombstalkers for late game as i never ever get 2 out and never get them out early. I cut vision charms because they were usually dead draws or worthless late game. And I got smothers in over snuff outs for Bobs as he was the person I was having the most trouble with plus the 4 extra damage really stacks up with 8 fetch lands, 4 FoWs and 4 Thoughtseizes. As for deed they are great board sweepers.

Granted its all just a matter of personal taste when it comes down to it.

As a side note if removal is really that bad why not just toss in a single Scrubland and Tundra and toss in swords and be done with it? Most people run 8 fetches so it shouldn't be that big of a burden

Thanks. :smile: If you love NPH, you need to watch the first season of How I Met Your Mother, he is incredibly funny in that show. And if you know of Nathan Fillion, I'm guessing you're already a huge fan of Firefly and Joss Whedon (the guy that made that short film in my sig!)

How can you consistently play Dreadnought if you don't play any Stifles or Trickbinds? I would end up with them dead in my hand a lot if I tried to do that. Vision Charm is not a bad card. You can colorscrew a player and timewalk them, you can protect your Dreadnought by phasing it out, and obviously, you can always pitch it to FoW or shuffle it away with Brainstorm. Stifle always has plenty of uses. I primarily rely on Vision Charm to combo with and protect Dreadnought, and use Stifle to take out fetchlands.

You do have a point about Tombstalker. The deck only plays 18 lands and this deck doesn't play Ritual so it makes multiple Tombstalkers slightly harder to cast. But still, I think 4 Tombstalker are justified in part because the card is that broken, and more importantly, you have Brainstorms to put back and shuffle away additional Tombstalkers. Also playing 2 Tombstalkers over the course of a game is sometimes doable. The fetchlands help you fill up your yard quickly. Like I said, I'm trying out a manabase identical to Team America, that decks plays 4 Tombstalkers as well and does just fine.

I honestly love Snuff Out and would never play Smother or splash for StP over it. What does Smother kill that Snuff Out doesn't? Tombstalker and Mystic Enforcer are both higher than 3cc. I really can't think of any tier one legacy decks that play Confidant. Plus, because Snuff Out is free, you can play it a turn earlier, and save yourself from an attack which is usually worth more than 4 life. StP is definately not worth splashing for. It costs mana, you will get colorscrewed out of white, and StPing their Dreadnought will give them three extra turns to live, which is unacceptable. I would rather lose 4 life than have to spend a mana and give my opponent anywhere between 5-12 life.

Here's my attempt to make this deck a Team America clone...

1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

2 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Snuff Out

Frank The Tank

01-17-2009, 06:47 AM

I love How I Met Your Mother. NPH is great in that and yes I am a huge firefly fan.

I suppose I could try 4 snuff outs instead of smothers at least but I am hesitant to cut deed because they are a beast late game. I know they are slow and mana intensive but early game you should be tossing out beats like goyf and naught. There have been many times when wiping the board has saved my ass.

Maybe I am playing the deck wrong but i mostly smash face with tombstalker and goyf and if I can resolve naught. I find myself sometimes tossing out a naught and sacking it to itself just so my goyf can get +2 +2.

rancOr_

01-17-2009, 02:02 PM

Hi,

I've been playing TA,and although its a very good deck there's one card that kills it:Relic of Progenitus.
In my metagame many pple play it in the sideboard(instead of crypt)or even MB if they play trinket mage.
That's why I decided to go Dreadstalker route and add Phyrexian Dreadnought.
It also takes care of rogue decks(mono-colored decks) or decks where the LD-gameplan isnt effective in general.

This is my newest decklist, it is UB and very solid.
It only plays 18 lands ,but it can afford it because it doesnt play green.
It has the same idea as TA,but plays Dreadnought instead of Goyf.

4x Stifle
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Brainstorm
3x Vision Charm
4x Sinkhole
4x Daze
4x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will
4x Tombstalker

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp

Any ideas ,comments ?

GGoober

01-17-2009, 04:13 PM

@rancor: My list is super similar. What's sad is I actually made the deck without referring to this thread at all and just found that damn, Dread Stalker's already a deck in progress, and is doing well!

Anyway, here's the list that I came up with without referencing to the thread and it's done super well. My main motivation for the list was analyzing TA and realizing that Goyf is one of the strongest beaters, but he's probably the most hated beater in Legacy i.e. he doesn't stick long. I referred to Eva Green and TA and realized the same weaknesses. The threats in Eva are all chumped but is accounted for by disruption to protect their threats. TA uses Mana denial to protect its threat, and to be honest, Tombstalker is the only real threat in the deck since Goyf just faces Goyf.

One of the reasons why I didn't like TA that much was that the Stifles are solely for the purpose of denying mana or activation. And being a Goyf-hater, I thought that playing green solely for Goyf MD was a little retarded. So I pondered about what's the next biggest creature and voila, Dreadnought, which fits perfectly into the Stifle plan.

My build is similar to TA and although I know people dislike the Wasteland + Sinkhole + Stifle, I feel that it's important in today's meta, and the mana denial is a form of protection for your threats. Having denied them of mana, you will not have to worry about Vindicates, Swords (if you denied the right mana), etc and all you have left is to protect via FOW and Thoughtseizes.

With regards to Snuff Out. It's a card that I want to see all the time, but in more testing, I realize it's not that great in DS than in TA, since your threats and clocks are much faster. I took them out and played MD Spell Snares, which goes great with the mana-denial package. The list is pretty much a hybridized suite of Tempo Thresh and TA, with the biggest UNDERCOSTED EVASIVE creatures in Legacy:

Lands:
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
2x Swamp
1x Island

Cantrips
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm

Mana-denial package//Dreadnought enablers:
4x Sinkhole
4x Stifle
3x Vision Charm

Tempo counters/disruption
4x Thoughtseize
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
4x Force of Will

Threats:
4x Tombstalker
4x Dreadnought

3 Spell Snares over Snuff outs have been great against goyf, Standstills, Chalice@2, Piledrivers, Burning Wish. Snuff out is important but if you play a controllish, mana denying role for turns 1-3, you can safely play the threats. Snuff out was great for me yesterday even as Land destruction against Factories, together with all the Stifles and Sinkholes. I played against Dreadstill and played with the philosophy: Just land a Tombstalker safely in play. Dreadstill can do NOTHING about Tombstalker. It doesn't die to EE.

I'm not too sure if Spell Snare > Snuff out but I think it's meta dependent. Both fit the role on playing a tight deck, gaining tempo, but I like Spell Snare since you deny them of mana, and when they drop a 2cc spell, you counter it, and following up with a Tombstalker. The strength of this deck over Dreadstill is that the creature base is stronger and we have 7-8 ways of landing a Dreadnought in play. Dreadstill has the problem of Stifling opponent's waste and sitting with a dead Nought in hand. DS can afford to stifle wastes/fetches and wait on Vision Charms to bring Nought in.

I'm loving this deck! :D