[Brainstorming] Braids + Bitterblossom

[CynicalSquirrel]

I'm getting back into MTG a bit, and one of my favorite cards has always been Braids, Cabal Minion. Not only is she oddly attractive, but she can be pretty devastating to a lot of different decks.

Recently I've heard people complaining about Bitterblossom being good in T2 or something, and it took me until now to realize that this card could actually be good with Braids.

So could this combo actually work in a Legacy deck? I haven't been keeping up too well with the format, so it might be way too slow or something.

Possible ideas I've had:

BW Braids. The standard with Braids, Vindicate, etc, but you add in Bitterblossom to try to "lock" your opponent while swinging at them with Nantuko Shade and Hypnotic Specter.

Braids Stax. This was popular a long time ago, not sure if anyone still plays it. Braids and Smokestack obviously both would work well with Bitterblossom, and from there the deck can focus on other things to disrupt the opponent.

Braids Opposition. Probably my favorite, but also most likely the worst. I was thinking BUG. Braids and Bitterblossom both work incredibly well with Opposition, and if you get any combination of two of those three it's going to be a huge pain in the ass for your opponent. Obviously Tarmogoyf would be involved in this, and you could choose between counters, discard, or a combination of the two. You could even add in that new Eventide guy that makes worm tokens for added fun.

Anyone else have ideas? I really want to make Braids work in Legacy. :-/

[Hanni]

I think Braid Stax got a powerhouse in Bitterblossom. I'm just waiting for it to be exploited. Obviously, Chalice and Trinishphere need to be in here. I'm thinkin LD + recur LD effects are gonna be good too. Build it up.

[moOnsteak]

Contamination + Bitterblossom >>> Braids + Bitterblossom. .
BUt maybe these card will be the beginning to start some build like Black Stax (see Angel Stax as comparison). .

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Contamination + Bitterblossom >>> Braids + Bitterblossom.It's not as clear cut as that. Braids can take out resolved permanents and Contamination doesn't do much against black decks.

[Apex]

One of the legacy side event 2nd placer of I think PT Hollywood ran a deck with Braids + BB. I actually tried to tweak it a bit (in fact, I'm still tweaking it), but I found that Braids is just too slow. Often times, BB + Jitte will just win you the game even faster, and the fork can win with just a random dude, while Braids is quite more trickier than that (easier to kill and doesn't really do THAT much).

[Mordenkaynen]

If you use bitterblossom + braids/contamination you would be interested in nether spirit also. And may be culling scales. Some kind of permanents-hate.
Add Chimeric Idol (blossom in lock cause you to lose life, the deck must be able to win; nether spirit doesn't like other creatures in the deck), Dark Ritual (speed for the lock), thoughtseize (against combo) and may be some fast creatures - and here is aggro-control with a permanent-lock.
Theoretically.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Contamination requires Bitterblossom itself, whereas Braids would also combo with Crucible of Worlds.


The problem is that at the point at which you're running this many control elements, you're focusing too much on trying to get a hard lock down, often impossibly, instead of just distracting the opponent long enough to win, which is a much more reliable strategy.

[Dark_Cynic87]

The problem is that at the point at which you're running this many control elements, you're focusing too much on trying to get a hard lock down, often impossibly, instead of just distracting the opponent long enough to win, which is a much more reliable strategy.

Nonsense, you toss out cards like Braids, stax, 3sphere, CotV, and you distract them. Not vice versa. They become distracted, and you win. If they don't become distracted and try stopping this stuff, then you probably win because you resolve a lot of really annoying cards.

I play stax varients a lot, and I never seem to have a hard time winning. Even with all the "focusing on trying to get a hard lock down".

I think a UB Stax list would do well with BB. It's not as good as Words of Wilding (the irony here is sickening, posting this right after Theinfamousbearassassin posted something, lol), but it makes up for it with flyers (they do fly, right?). The bad thing is that I like to use Grim Tutors and/or Intuitions in the list, and also Chains of Mephistopheles. I gotta say that Tombstalker wouldn't be bad.

Pce,

--DC

[Valtrix]

Contamination requires Bitterblossom itself, whereas Braids would also combo with Crucible of Worlds.

Crucible also combos if you happen to have a manland like mishra's factory out =)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nonsense, you toss out cards like Braids, stax, 3sphere, CotV, and you distract them. Not vice versa. They become distracted, and you win. If they don't become distracted and try stopping this stuff, then you probably win because you resolve a lot of really annoying cards.

Then why doesn't it win tournaments? My testing says says something that yours apparently doesn't.

[Hanni]

Then why doesn't it win tournaments? My testing says says something that yours apparently doesn't.

Because it isn't played? I actually recall a deck at a PT side event (Hollywood maybe?) that had a deck with both Braids and Bitterblossom in it that Top 8'd and had high attendance.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not talking about your specific build. I'm talking about any variant of Stax. For the past two or three years everyone and their mother has slapped down every combination of cards possible that included Tombs, City of Traitor, Chalice, Trinisphere, some sort of Mox and some fatties. I think the closest to respectable is Dragon Stompy, and that's not saying much, and defeats the argument that the best way to win is to build an elaborate prison.

[Hanni]

I thought Armageddon Stax was doing really well not too long ago and was in the DTB? Also, I don't think it's fair to discredit Dragon Stompy when it is such a house against so much of the format still. Faerie Stompy was successful for a long time too, and although it didn't include Trinisphere, it still used the other Stax cards to great success.

I think the reason Stax isn't played as much is consistency issues. Some games it can just blow people out of the water and then lose the next game to itself.

Braids is just another Smokestack, which increases the consistency of getting one of those effects into play. Creating permanent advantage over the opponent and then blowin their stuff up is extremely strong against alot of decks. Toss in some Crucible/Waste/Sinkhole shenanigans and I think there is alot of potential. BB might be a problem to build around but I think it's doable. Bitterblossom and Ancient Tomb (and possibly Thoughtseize) add up in damage but I think the power of those cards outweighs that aspect. Toss in the fact that the deck gets a really strong finisher in Tombstalker (which can shrink opposing Goyfs) and the deck ends up being really strong.

[georgjorge]

I'm currently trying out a Gb prison version that uses Braids. It doesn't aim for a hard lock (except for the two Crucibles I'm playing), just for having more permanents in play than the opponent to keep Braids going for longer. For that, I use stuff like Tangle Wire, Wall of Roots, and of course Garruk (who is very nice to have with two-mana-lands). Also, Kitchen Finks in the sideboard, as well as either Boneshredder or Murderous Redcap for 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 with Braids out. Persist in general seems to be good with either Contamination or Braids, and sometimes more useful in general than Bitterblossom.

For redundancy (in that kind of deck), I'd also like to point out Magus of the Abyss, which eventually kills itself but until then can cause many creatures to be sacced (or not to be played). In today's creature-heavy meta, that seems to be a good idea.

[fourleafedmonkey]

Braids, is so awesome.

But i believe braids is better played in an aggro control kind of deck over a prison type of deck with things that lead to an advantage, such as persist and tombstalker etc.
The fact that it is a creature that dies to a top decked plains + stp means that it is not a permanent enough lock piece [unlike smokestack].

[Dark_Cynic87]

Just pithing needle plains :rolleyes:

But seriously, Chalice @ 1.

I don't actually think that BB belongs in a prison list. It's meant for a more aggressive build. I'm gonna let you drop it, and then I'm gonna slap down EE's all day long. Or Echoing Truth. You are going to lose life, and I won't.

If you wait to play it until after you drop Braids, or the turn you play braids, braids basically gains an upkeep of one life. Seems iffy.

I play UGr Sun Tower STILL, and beat Ichorid all damn day. Aggro lists make me giggle, and Storm isn't extemely difficult to slam around, especially game 2 and 3 when you have access to Arcane Lab--it's like running 7 Trinisphere. Games 2 and 3 vs. Ichorid, Goblins, and etc. you have Propagandas in addition to 3x EE, not to mention Crypts against Ichorid. Thresh isn't too bad depending on their hand and just how many counterspells the open with, and CB is a non-issue.

Hurkyl's Recall is all I really get screwed by, and people really don't play it, at least not around here. That and 43 lands, which I haven't seen in forever. Thinking about putting a single Savannah in the list just so I can run Mages in the board though, just to throw people off.

Sorry to get off-topic, but I had to make my case.

Pce,

--DC

[GenioDeArena]

Just of the top of my head:
Braids+BB+Contamination+Abyssal Gatekeeper
Nether spirit kinda looses their sense in creatue based builds though.

[Skeggi]

I thought Armageddon Stax was doing really well not too long ago and was in the DTB?

No it's not. Please, when constructing your decks and/or sideboard, you really don't need any staxhate.

[Nihil Credo]

Stax did get in the DTB once, IIRC. But right now you only need to consider it a relevant metagame presence if you play in NW Germany or NE Italy, I think.

[The Wes]

Arn't there always a couple in MA too?

[Clark Kant]

If you're going to build a deck around this, you must run the following cards....

4 Bitterblossom
4 Nether Spirit
4 Contagion
4 Braids Cabal Minion

and you should probably also run...

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Wasteland
3-4 Mishra's Factory
3 Crucible of Worlds

and possibly

4 Dark Ritual
X Culling Scales
X Smokestack

There, the deck practically built itself.

If you opt out of running Nether Spirit, you get access to a lot of other goodies like Tombstalker and that 4cc Red Black guy with persist that kills dudes.

The only remaining question is, is either strategy competitive. Let us know, because I don't have the cards to put this deck together at the moment.

[GenioDeArena]

If you run Nether Spirit ill go with therepies all day long instead of maybe duress, you can nail creatures, and the creature loss is only for a turn.

[dude 666]

@ Clark Kant- 4 nether spirit seems like it would fuck you over far too often, especially since you're playing 4 other creatures. I think tombstalker would solve this problem though, just remove extra braids and spirits in your yard; tombstalker has the added benefit of only dying to swords.

Why do you list contagion as a must-have? Snuff out seems better in almost every situation, it's not card disadvantage, it can actually kill things like tarmogoyf, and you can still play it instant speed for free.

The decklist you wrote up is basically a pox variation. I was thinking more along the lines of traditional stax, except with things like tangle wire and pirates. Then you get access to ancestral visions, which is a great stax card, and meditate. You can also afford to play ancient tombs then, since you don't have all those :b::b: requirements.

[Hanni]

Clark, your permanent count seems way too low to support Braids and Smokestack. I realize you have recur in 4 Bitterblossom, 4 Nether Spirit, and 3 Crucible... but I don't think that is enough to run 8 sac effects. A more traditional Stax shell has more synergy with that plan.

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere

Those are two cards that definitely need to be in the deck. Chalice wrecks sooooo many decks. It's going to improve way more matchups than the discard would. Trinisphere buys you the time to get sufficient locks into place (Sinkhole does this too but it's not a permanent). Stretching the manabase with too much BB can often lead to bad times.

3 Smallpox
3 Damnation

The above two cards are the only non-permanent, non-mana producing cards you really want to run, IMO. MD discard clashes with Chalice/Trini and do not add to your permanent count. I would definitely run discard in the sideboard... but not in the the maindeck. Land destruction is fine but it still doesn't add to the permanent count. The only LD sorcery I'd run is Smallpox. Smallpox is extremely strong in this style deck since it reduces the opponent's resources by such a large amount in combination with Braids/Smokestack. It also doubles over as creature removal, which is very nice. Damnation is important at regaining control over aggro decks that get out of hand before you lock the game, especially the ones that produce alot of permanents, like Goblins.

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mox Diamond

The above is going to be necessary for powering out your 3cc-4cc spells. I cut the Traitors down to 2 because the deck has several BB cards and needs the room for the extra black sources. 14 acceleration pieces should be enough anyway.

Ritual clashes with Chalice/Trini but that's okay because usually it's going to be used to cast Chalice/Trini or your not going to need the extra acceleration (if you had the mana sources to Chalice/Trini already). Ritual is just too powerful to not run, especially since it funds the BB needed for Braids, Smallpox, and Damnation (and any other BB cards in the sideboard).

So we end up with a shell like this:

Braids Blossom [Suicide] Stax (BBSS)

Lands (26)
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (4)
4 Braids, Cabal Minion

Spells (30)
4 Dark Ritual
3 Bitterblossom
3 Smallpox
3 Damnation
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Haunting Echoes

23 lands is the bare minimum to support the Mox... however, it should be fine since the deck also runs 3 Crucibles. I'm hoping right now that 16 black sources (counting Mox) + 4 Ritual is going to be enough to support the BB spells. There is only 10 BB spells so this should be fine. I'm running 4 fetchland because they can recur with Crucible if you need to but the deck cannot afford to run any more for lifeloss reasons because of Ancient Tomb + Bitterblossom. Life total is still important vs aggro and other fast decks.

The lone Factory is just there to be a recurable win condition via Crucible should the game go long and the deck needs the recursion. I'm not running Nether Spirit because, while it goes well with the theme of Braids (recurring creature to be sac'd), it does not work well with other creatures (Braids). I think that between Bitterblossom, Crucible, and the simple fact that this deck will have a very large permanent advantage over (almost) every other deck, will be more than enough to support Braids/Smokestack.

I'm not running Tombstalker because the deck doesn't really need him. The deck does not fill the graveyard very fast on its own (you'll often be sac'ing recurable lands and Bitterblossom tokens). It doesn't have any relevant ability to add the Stax gameplan. Tombstalker is not very resilient and cannot recur so it's nothing groundbreaking other than giving the deck a faster clock. If anything it can go in the sideboard... but it isn't necessary maindeck. The deck has 4 Braids, 4 Bitterblossom, and 1 Factory as win conditions, which are more than enough.

Extirpate sounds like an extremely strong card out of the sideboard for Stax. The deck puts so many cards of the opponent's into the graveyard that Extirpate is just begging to be broken against certain decks. I'd consider running it MD but there just isn't enough room and I don't think there is anything worth cutting MD for it.

Shriekmaw seems like another strong sideboard card. It is spot removal that can also become a permanent once you have enough mana. That sort of 2-for-1 card advantage is powerful in Stax. Being a 3/2 with Fear makes him a very solid beater, too. It also doesn't have the restrictive BB cost.

The sideboard I'm running around is just thrown together, designed for just a random metagame:

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Haunting Echoes

Duress vs combo, some control. Extirpate vs any decks reliant around 1 or 2 cards/win conditions and graveyard-based decks. EE can answer tokens (EtW, Zombie) as well as other troublesome permanents that you cannot get rid of (or get rid of it fast enough) with Damnation, Smallpox, or the sac effects. Needle can just randomly shut down certain decks, especially certain cards. 1 card that eliminates 4 cards in the opponent's deck is very strong... especially since it can be played proactively as well as reactively. Haunting Echoes is just a pending card because I'm not sure what the 1-of should be.

That's the direction that I would go with the deck, anyway.

EDIT: After playtesting, the deck gets mana-flooded way too often. Mox Diamond is an incredibly powerful card but the fact that they cannot be played later without discarding a land for 0 (like Chrome Mox would be able to) makes it horrible after the first 2 turns. I realize the synergy between them and Crucible but I'm not sure I like them. It's either Dark Ritual or Chrome Mox and I think Ritual offers more to the deck powerwise. Turn 1 Chalice (for 1) + Trinisphere is such a broken play that it's rediculous. Doesn't happen all the time but power plays like that are not uncommon with Ritual(s).

-4 Mox Diamond
-1 Bitterblossom
+1 Polluted Delta
+1 City of Traitors
+1 Tombstalker
+1 Haunting Echoes
+1 Crucible

I didn't want to drop the land count too low so I added in 2 lands. I upped the Traitors to 3... I don't really like running full playsets of the card because it causes mana screw issues often but I still want some accel. I also added a 5th fetchland because I do like seeing them sometimes with Crucible.

There is no lifeloss from Crucible and it does essentially the same thing with Smokestack and Braids that Bitterblossom does. Consistent land drops as well as Wasteland lock is also stronger for this decks strategy, IMO, than Bitterblossom (against decks with non-basics). So I switched the numbers around on them.

I added two additional win conditions to the deck, both of which can end the game on their lonesome, which is awesome. It quickens the goldfish a bit and they both can bring games back from a loss. The increased clock is actually important because of the lifeloss.

I'll make the changes to the decklist I posted.

EDIT 2: I'm also considering...

-1 City of Traitors
-1 Tombstalker

...from the maindeck to add...

+2 Mishra's Factory.

Basically, Factories have alot more synergy with the rest of the deck. It's a permanent that is much easier to get into play than Tombstalker. It's not as much of a threat as Tombstalker is... but it comes down sooner, is alot harder to get rid of, and plays well with Smallpox, Damnation, and even the sac effects. I really didn't find myself needing the 3rd Traitors in testing and 26 lands is the most lands I want to play in this deck. With Ritual, thats 30 mana sources... I'm actually trying to figure out if I want to cut some more. For now, it's been fine. I had to leave Haunting Echoes in because it is such a bomb... sometimes, it just wins games the deck had no business winning and it does it out of nowhere.