[Help Wanted] Good Ugw.dec in an undefined metagame ?!

[lolosoon]

Dear fellow Sourcers,

I've got (quite) the cards, know the lists, but still wondering which deck would best performing in an undefined metagame.

My playstyle is aggro, aggro-control oriented (former Homebrew player, now playing Eva Green) but I wanted to try some blue+Goyf deck for the next tournament.

First, a quick view of the local shop's metagame :
- 2-3 (Hanni- Dreaded- Ubg-) Fish
- 1-2 Threshold
- 1-2 Belcher
- 1-2 Goblins
- 0-2 Landstill or MUC
- 0-1 TES or F.Tendrils
- 0-1 Burn

Add some Pikula, SuiBlack or black aggro variations among other decks that often are Extended ports (but no Dredge), or random tribals.dec for the great majority.

Ichorid, Loam and Survival only shows when I bring them, but GY hate (mainly Extirpate and a few crypts) is often found in numerous sideboards.

Now, the deck I'm wondering packing and playing :
- The Epic Control
- Uw(bg) Standstill (with or without Goyfs)
- Ugw Threshold


All of them have their pros and cons, their strengths and weaknesses. Still, I have the following questions :

Draw :
Cantrips or real draw spells (ie Meditate//Standstill) ?
Is card quality better than card quantity or the contrary ?! Digging for early threats//answers and shuffling away ineffective cards is nice, drawing them AND a way to protect them seems better thought...

Meditate//Standstill have imho the best cc//(effective)draws ratio in the current Legacy card pool, but their quality heavily depend of the game and board status which can be problematic a times...

Jace or not ?!
Even if he's slow, the "draw 3, let opp. draw 1" is a devastating CA over time. If unprotected it's a poor fog, and a bad topDeck when things are not looking good

Are there rooms or use for Fact or Fiction ?!
They're slow, real slow, but they dig and draw you the card you might want to win the game. Or at least, keep not losing it. Looks like a staple in control, but even some Threshold builds packs them as a 1-2 of between MD//SB.


CounterMagic :
The almighty FoW
It's a no-brainer, I want to play 4 of them.

Hard counters or Conditionnal ones ?
Daze and Spellsnares are cheap and efficients, but mid-game they're not sufficient. You can always count on the good ol' Counterspells, but it's too slow for stopping combo in it's tracks. What a dilemna....

CounterTop engine ?
Vs combo or any non-control deck those two cards, if used well, can win you the game by their sole strength as soon as the combo become online. Still, it's not before turns 3-4 where the game could already be lost or in it's way.
To last until CounterTop bacame efficient, how manyu cheap and fast answers or counterspells do you have to pack ?
Is the 4 FoW of TEC sufficients per example ?!

Stifle or Not ?
With that few combo decks around, is Stifle that needed ? Are Fetches sufficient targets to make Stifle worth MD material even if you don't pack Wastelands ?


Board control :
Swords to Plowshare or sweepers ?! Are both needed ?
StP is a no brainer again. As pinPoint removal nothing bests it.
In threshold you can't pack Wraths due to the threat density you have in comparison with TEC//LandStill where 3 wraths is a good number. But WW2 is so sloooow. I wonder if E.Explosives wouldn't be better, even in control decks...
Beside Goblins, you don't need to sweep the board clean from critters. Even Eva Green, which is one of the best aggro decks imho, you don't have to struggle vs a horde of creatures.
So why play Wrath to sweep a lone Stalker or Goyf if you can Sword it or fight it back with your own threats ?

Shackles//Threads//Mind Harness
Why kill your ennemies when you can bribe them ?
3+2 mana and at least 5-6 islands is not that easy to obtain for effectively use the Shackles, even when piloting a control deck, the game can not last this long.
Threads is conditionnal (well, not that conditionnal in Legacy) but become effective faster than Shackles. Harness is not that good if AggroLoam isn't around, still the 1cc costs control Magic effect is tempting...
Finally, are those 3 cards really needed MD ? SB ?!

Oblivion Ring
The 3cc of the card is useful fighting back Grips to protect your counterTop engine. Plus, there rarely are enchantment removal packed in game 1 so the O.Ring is a good alternate all-purpose removal spell that can get rid of pesky things like Survival, Charbelcher or Moat (when you play Threshold per example).


Kills :
Tarmogoyf
He's everywhere. But he's the best way to answer opposing Tarmogoyf or end the game real quick. A staple in Legacy ?! I'm afraid it really is...

Hoofprints of the Stag
With all the blue drawing spells packed in any of those 3 decks, an early hoofprints can become a threat factory quick after hitting play. It's easily splashable, hardly answerable and pump goyf if answered. Really tempting.

Additionnal beaters or resilient WinCons ?!
Mishra's Factories, Nantuko Monastery, E.Dragon are hard to answer and can come back again and again and again (thanks to CoW). But they are so sloooooow you're not sure to win in 45mn.
Plus, SB GY hate can randomly hose your WinCons games 2-3...
In the other hand, Mongeese an Enforcer are just critters legacy players are accustomed to deal with...


So, there is not a perfect Uwg deck, I agree, or else it will be played over and over. But with the metagame I describe which list seems the best prepared and with which particular card choice//tech packed in ?!


If I would stick with the Aggro//control plan, here's what I will plan to play for now. Still, it might not be the best choice...

UGw 'controlish' Threshold

Threats (10)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Hoofprints of the Stag

Counters (13)
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance

Draw (13)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace Beleren

Removal (6)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring

Mana (18)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB :
No Idea...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Play the Mighty Quinn.

Either that or Enlightened Landstill with Shackles/Counterbalance-Top/Moat/EE/Etc.

[Anusien]

I'd be tempted to play VoroshStill or a similar Landstill deck. Pernicious Deed, Force, Tarmogoyf and Standstill seem quite good in that metagame. Notably it's low on Wastelands at all, which is a huge plus for decks that want 3-4 colors + Mishra's Factory.

Considering you're basically just concerned about Ux aggro-control decks there are any number of decks you could consider, but I'd prefer one of the more well-rounded ones. Plus, Counterbalance.

[Deep6er]

It would also be important to note that he did NOT include black in his original statement. He said a good Ugw deck. Which technically, a deck including Pernicious Deed would not fall under.

However, if you were to include black, I would also recommend It's the Fear. You know, because why not?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Whatever Geoff won Syracuse with.

[lolosoon]

You seem to opt for a more Controlish deck (Voroshstill//It's the fear//some TogLess tog controllish build) than an aggro-control one. Wasn't it a rule of thumb that Threshold was a solid all-purpose choice ? Am I wrong ?

About the lack of wasteland in this metagame and the 4+ colour plan : Are you sure ?! I mean, some Fish builds packs Stifle+Wasteland, Goblins still have it's manaDenial plan (even if the Rishadan Ports see less and less play).
Ok, it's not the majority of decks played, so the risk is worth the rewards ?

So, what I've got now ?
Controlish build ?
Could you please explain the advantage of playing a slow control deck instead of 3-4-5c Aggro-Control ?! Is it the presence or lack of a particular archetype or what ?! (or are you just wish to write your petDeck name in this thread XD )


Black splash ?
Deed > Thresh, Gob and random aggro. But EE is great too and can come online faster... huh ?
Thoughtseize + FoW//CounterTop > TES, Belcher and combo in general. But aren't counterTop+FoW alone that sufficient most of the time ?



Play the Mighty Quinn.
Duh. Sorry Jack I'll not play any Parfait/MWC/Rabid Wombat/Quinn the Eskimo related deck. No. No kidding. No.


Either that or Enlightened Landstill with Shackles/Counterbalance-Top/Moat/EE/Etc.
Done there, and have been disappointed. It may be, (or rather it surely is) related to my lack of skills with control, but I've tried a similar deck and the lack of early answers frightened me. Here's the list, posted in the TEC topic a while ago :

TEC : The Enlightened Control

Artifacts (7)
2 Vedalkan Shackles
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives

Creatures (4)
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace Beleren

Enchantments (8)
4 Counterbalance
2 Hoofprints of the stag
2 Standstill

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force Of Will
4 Swords To Plowshares

Sorceries (2)
2 Wrath Of God

Basic Lands (6)
4 Island
2 Plains

Lands (16)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Academy Ruins


The deck looked quite solid on paper, like "if I survive until mid-late game I simply cannot lose" but hey, Lategame sometime never happens. FoW and CounterTop alone doesn't seem sufficient by moments.
That's why I lend to Threshold and additional disruption in form of Daze, Spellsnare. I'm not sure it's a good choice I repeat.

[Whit3 Ghost]

The best Threshold decks are not UGW. They are 4-5c, Moon and Canadian. That's why Thresh has been omitted.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'll go out on a limb and suggest playing around with what came out on the forums (briefly) not too long ago as Cividale UGW Special Brew. It is very much like Threshold, but it lacks Threshold's vulnerability to graveyard hate. It's great fun to play, and quite strong to boot. It's in need of a little dusting and tweaking, but it could be worth your time. Certainly, I think it can be a stronger choice overall than UGW Threshold.

[raharu]

I'll go out on a limb and suggest playing around with what came out on the forums (briefly) not too long ago as Cividale UGW Special Brew. It is very much like Threshold, but it lacks Threshold's vulnerability to graveyard hate. It's great fun to play, and quite strong to boot. It's in need of a little dusting and tweaking, but it could be worth your time. Certainly, I think it can be a stronger choice overall than UGW Threshold.
Is threshold really that reliant on the grave anymore?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Is threshold really that reliant on the grave anymore?

Well... no. Touché. :tongue:

[thefreakaccident]

UWg landstill is a pretty solid deck... and it looks like a good call for that meta as well... here is Konsultant's build which recently got first in the 1k NY event:



lands//23
4 mishra's factory
4 tundra
1 savannah
2 tropical island
4 flooded strand
3 plains
2 island
3 wasteland

creatures//2
2 eternal dragon

spells//35
3 decree of justice
2 krosan grip
3 engineered explosives
4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 humility
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will

[Citrus-God]

You could at least include the Sideboard as well...

Anyways, here's Geoff Smelski's sideboard.

1 Wrath of God
1 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Enlighten Tutor
2 Ajani Goldmane
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Runed Halo
3 Meddling Mage