[Deck] Burning Passage

[pcccp]

Last weekend Hermann Fehlauer made the third place at a big legacy event (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2008-07-T15.html) in germany. The Idea is to cast show and tell and bring in Tidespout Tyrant. A lot of wishes and tutors allows you to find everything you need. Guided passage is just brilliant in here.
I really like the idea of the deck. Maybe we can improve it a little bit. :smile:

---

Hermann Fehlauer
"Burning Passage"

Main Deck

4 Brainstorm
2 Cryptic Command
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Ponder
3 Show and Tell
4 Spell Snare
3 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Burning Wish
3 Guided Passage
4 Fire // Ice
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island

Sideboard

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Cryptic Command
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Show and Tell
1 Pyroclasm
1 Recoup
1 Call of the Herd
1 Krosan Grip
1 Primal Command
1 Regrowth
1 Guided Passage
1 Firespout
1 Guttural Response
1 Research // Development

[Willoe]

It looks good, but can't you fetch more dangerous creatures? Tidespout Tyrant should at least be reduced to a 2-off who wants to sit with a Tyrant and no SAT? Not many. Also, some more free spells could do to bounce more permanents when Tyrant hits.

More Cunning Wishes please. Instant speed makes this card wonderful. We should include a Foil to fetch with it. More free counters are always good.

But I'd really like to break Guided Passage as it's wonderful at giving you a mana source (well, almost everytime), some small business spell (the worst card in this deck is a Cantrip, I think) and your win condition. The problem is that you need to fetch both parts of your combo with Guided Passage, which you can't.

The advantage of Guided Passage over Intuition (which should also be a tutor target) is that you are resistant to graveyard hate, IMO. That makes it actually playable.

I'd like to test this deck and see how it performs.

On a sidenote: Why not add Swans of Bryn Argoll in here instead? That is castable, at least. And it hits hard as a flying five turn clock.

[Isamaru]

Guided Passage is one of my favorite cards of all time. :smile:

Is Burning Wish for Pyroclasm (and 4 Fire//Ice) fast enough to hold off Goblins for long enough? Or does the combo immediately ensure a win against Goblins? I am worried this deck would suffer against pure Aggro (possibly with Equipment) and maybe even against a Control deck.

Willoe brings up a good point though: is Swans + Chain better overall than Tyrant + Show&Tell? They're both Creature+Sorcery so they'd both work in this shell.

I think Tyrant + Show and Tell is clever overall, since he's the one thing you can bring out of a Show and Tell to make up for Show and Tell's drawback... but Swans + Chains might be better for this shell... and you can definitely hard cast him.

I love the Primal Command in the wish board there :smile:

[Cire]

7 wishes! what! sure you can find answers to a lot of stuff, but you'll need the correct wish to do so. i think you should stick with only burning wish, to be able to wish for a passage.

Btw if you could also run Painter/stone combo, i mean it takes less space than swan/chain main and you can run fabricate to search out the stone (or even run living wish instead to get either painter or trinket mage)

I think though the guided passage is a cool card: 3 mana to get Land, Combo Piece and brick into your hand. Maybe the best underused tutor legacy has?

[Meteora]

The player is actually a Vintageplayer and he wanted to make an excursion to Legacy and built this deck. Therefore I guess he made the necessary adjustments in regard to the metagame and there are hardly any goblinplayers in western Germany. Pure aggrodecks are also not played very often. There's a lot of Sui, Landstill and a lot of aggro-control, like Thresh, Fish and so on.
I think Pyroclasm is more a solution for Meddling Mage, although he mentioned (I played in that tournament too) that good players would name Burning Wish with Meddling Mage.

[Isamaru]

No. Don't shove Painter/Grindstone into here. It's completely wrong for this deck, and it'd be bad to build around a combo people are expecting and will have hate for already.

[Cire]

it's not like swans/chain is unexpected...out of all the thresh players in my area they moved onto swan thresh builds from the fledging dragon UGr builds

[Willoe]

I find this thread VERY interesting already. Tested this build on MWS:
3 Guided Passage
4 Burning Wish
3 Cunning Wish

4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm
4 Fire//Ice

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

1 Chain of Plasma
1 Firespout
1 Foil
1 Guided Passage
1 Misdirection
1 Lightning Storm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Snapback
4 Pyroblast
4 Stifle

I did a savage sideboarding mistake making Guided Passage my only sorcery. Never mind on that.

I personally think that the swans combo is a lot more solid than silly painter. Seriously, why would you want a creature with Guided Passage that cannot win on its own? I really don't get it, as Swan itself is a very powerful beater that has so many advantages over painter stone combo:

Draws entire deck, giving you 4 fows to backup with. 4 FoWs might be redundant, but you will need at least 2 to have insurance.

Swans is a beater.

Chains can be fetched with Cunning Wish, by far the best card in the deck. Yes, even better than Guided Passage in my opinion. Guided Passage is an on-color Eladamri's Call and Lay of the Land and shitty mystical tutor in one. That is good. Being a very good mystical tutor is far better, IMO. That of course solely depends on the sideboard.

Chain of Plasma is a burn spell, too.

Makes Lightning Bolts to Ancestrals.

Doesn't require extra tutors, i.e. fabricate.

But:

It takes more slots

Costs more colored mana disabling wastelands and such

....

I'd like the Swans kill the most. Also because it can't die from damage, makes it a perfect staller. Who cares how many cards the opponent draws if you simply draw your entire deck before you die and win then?

EDIT: Right now, a possible sideboard could be:

1 Lightning Storm
1 Chain of Plasma
1 Foil
1 Snapback
1 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle

1 Chain Lightning
1 Firespout
1 Guided Passage

See, Cunning Wish can fetch much more really usable utility while burning wish can search for a creature kill, mass removal or a tutor. That is a bit too shabby, if it weren't for Guided Passage, I'd rather mainboard one and cut Burning.

[GenioDeArena]

if we are allready playing with tyrant why not add lotus petals and meke it a brain freeze kill like the one in vintage?

[Willoe]

Oh noes, they blow in this deck. Lotus Petals don't make broken speed, that's why they're still legal. Why do you want to play such win more spells? This format has evolved to a mainly creature-based one, so that makes it slower. It is possible to win via. Tyrant, but I prefer Swans. Tyrant wins games, but isn't as good as it is in Vintage.

[dude 666]

Well I tested the original version and...it blew. I lost horribly to aggro, aggro/control, and control. I made some changes to the deck, replaced some bad cards with good cards, and it has been running much smoother.

Changes to original decklist:
-4 ponder
-3 misdirection
-2 cunning wish
-2 cryptic command
-1 burning wish
-1 guided passage

+4 counterbalance
+4 counterspell
+3 sensei's divining top
+2 flooded strand

The deck runs much more consistently now, and feels like running MUC with the huge control package and a creature thats almost impossible to remove.

[GenioDeArena]

Oh noes, they blow in this deck. Lotus Petals don't make broken speed, that's why they're still legal. Why do you want to play such win more spells? This format has evolved to a mainly creature-based one, so that makes it slower. It is possible to win via. Tyrant, but I prefer Swans. Tyrant wins games, but isn't as good as it is in Vintage.

Im saying to play a petal, bounce it, replay it etc until you have enough storm to win on the spot, you dont need to attack at all.

[Willoe]

You will need two Petals to do that and a Brain Freeze. A random stifle will fuck you up, and you need three extra cards. You can say that the combo goes like this: Show and Tell + Tidespout Tyrant + Lotus Petal + Lotus Petal + Brain Freeze. Each of those pices SUCK on their own. I really don't get why people don't switch to counterburn with swans + chains. Here's my list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm

4 Burning Wish
4 Cunning Wish
3 Guided Passage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Fice/Ice
4 Spell Snare

Sideboard:
1 Chain of Plasma
4 Pyroblast
4 Krosan Grip
1 Extirpate
1 Smother

1 Firespout
1 Guided Passage
1 Chain Lightning

Cunning Wish is better than Burning Wish. All the really awesome wish targets are off-color and I'm even considerng cutting it. It simply only fetches a tutor that gives you massive card advantage, mass removal and spot removal. Burning Wish can with my mana base not even kill a goyf. How do you do that without splashing a color with an UGR manabase? I don't like splashing black as it will hurt my manabase even more, but what can I use to kill goyf with? It's pretty important to do, after all.

EDIT: Forgot to tell my minor results.

2-1 vs. Ubw Cunning landstill. Game 1 got into the late-game. I kept him off his factories by bolting them as they attacked me. Eternal Dragon never saw play, and about my 10th turn, I won. Game 2 was no fun, he extirpated my swan. And that's what I miss. Goyfs. But I really can't do it with Guided Passage. The reason why I'm trying this over Bryn Argoll Thresh is that we have awesome tutor power in the wishes and the passage. Simple. Game 3 I won around my turn 20. A long game where all three swans became killed until I filled my hand with 2 FoWs to win from that point.

Welder stax:
A strange version. I forgot to counter an Animate Dead on a Sundering Titan and couldn't get back into the game from that in game 1. He locked me down with Tangle Wires and a Welder plus Wasteland recusion game 2. No fun.

That's what I got from here. Even though I haven't tested against thresh, am I going to fear the matchup. Let's see how we do. Goblins might be a nightmare matchup, I think that fast aggro slaughters my gameplan. But after all, let's see! Problem is that a Gempalm Incinerator becomes a 1R draw 1+X cards for each goblin in play vs. my swan. That puts me in most situations on a one turn clock, I think.

[dude 666]

Willoe, I gotta say, you just took swan thresh and made it worse by unthreshifying it. You replaced tarmogoyf, nimble mongoose, and daze with cunning wish, burning wish, and burning passage. That seems much worse, but it may just be me.

I don't know why you gave up on the tyrant so quickly, i too dismissed him at first sight, but upon further testing, he really shone against, well, everything. Try out the changes I posted to the original decklist a few posts back and see how you like it. Burning passage doesn't really fit into a combo shell, and much less an aggro shell, so I increased the control elements and that is when I got the most out of burning passage.

[Carabas]

In your version, dude 666, what did you do to the sideboard? I find myself missing a ton of things that cunning wish could get but burning (especially a reduced number) can't get. Namely Grip and BEB, but I'm sure the others have uses.

[dude 666]

In your version, dude 666, what did you do to the sideboard? I find myself missing a ton of things that cunning wish could get but burning (especially a reduced number) can't get. Namely Grip and BEB, but I'm sure the others have uses.

The only thing cunning wish ever got was krosan grip, and a few times beb. In these colors, cunning wish doesn't have many particularly good targets; maybe reb to win counter wars or fact or fiction for CA, but that's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head. Burning wish has better targets, namely guided passage and show and tell, which are the basis for the deck. Hull breach, pyroclasm, regrowth, and life from the loam are good targets as well, but you only want to devote a small portion of your sideboard for the wishboard, no need to bastardize the whole thing.

[Serbitar]

It should be noted that in a CounterTop version double Top with Tyrant gives you quite some bounce (for people missing Mox/Mox/Brainfreeze).

[Giles]

It is cool an all. But you are giving your opponent perfect information. So what is stopping them from do this pile:



Hermann Fehlauer
"Burning Passage"

Main Deck

4 Brainstorm
2 Cryptic Command
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Ponder
3 Show and Tell
4 Spell Snare
3 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Burning Wish
3 Guided Passage
4 Fire // Ice
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island

Sideboard

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Cryptic Command
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Show and Tell
1 Pyroclasm
1 Recoup
1 Call of the Herd
1 Krosan Grip
1 Primal Command
1 Regrowth
1 Guided Passage
1 Firespout
1 Guttural Response
1 Research // Development
Creature card: Tyrant
Land card: Island
Noncreature, nonland card: Fire/ Ice or Force of Will



3 Guided Passage
4 Burning Wish
3 Cunning Wish

4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm
4 Fire//Ice

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

1 Chain of Plasma
1 Firespout
1 Foil
1 Guided Passage
1 Misdirection
1 Lightning Storm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Snapback
4 Pyroblast
4 Stifle

Creature card: Swans
Land card: Island
Noncreature, nonland card: Spell Snare/ Force of Will



4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
3 Chain of Plasma
1 Lightning Storm

4 Burning Wish
4 Cunning Wish
3 Guided Passage

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Fice/Ice
4 Spell Snare

Sideboard:
1 Chain of Plasma
4 Pyroblast
4 Krosan Grip
1 Extirpate
1 Smother

1 Firespout
1 Guided Passage
1 Chain Lightning


Creature card: Swans
Land card: Island
Noncreature, nonland card: Spell Snare/Force of Will

Remember you are giving your opponent perfect information in every situation. So this was my thinking for the piles in a vaccum. I am forced you give you the creature, Land I do not want to open up double mana symbol cards other than blue. For the non creature/land I gave you a non-draw non-engine spell.

[dude 666]

Well that is quite obvious, Giles. You can't honestly expect your opponent to give you tyrant, show and tell, volcanic island. Burning passage is nothing more than eladamri's call + sylvan scrying + night dealings(?), not a win-now card. We're just testing if its worth it to pay :u::r::g: for such a card.

And yes, double top + tyrant is basically gg.

[Giles]

I would rather play Gifts Ungiven or Intutiton beacause it allows for mistakes.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think what needs to be taken from this is that Passage is +2 card advantage always and a creature tutor at the very least.

Two ideas come to mind, Painter Combo, and ITF. My only worry is it being a Sorcery.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/di/155.jpg
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mi/188.jpg


Basically the deck would work like No-Stick. But play its win conditions in the SB. I this way you could have an answer for almost everything. And if you get this card imprinted on scepter your going to gain huge card advantage anyway.


Edit:
Just got back from testing, turns out the idea is bad. Being a sorcery is a huge drawback.

[Ranarion]

Why do you want to use combos like Painter or Swans?
Guided Passage-> Show and Tell-> Painter sucks because Painter does nothing on it's own.
Guided Passage-> Show and Tell-> Swans sucks too because you still have to find Chain of Plasma
Guided Passage-> Show and Tell-> Tyrant gives you a 5/5 flyer who hurts your opponent everytime you play any spell (and Guided Passage made the opponent to give you a new spell). You don't have to search for other combo pieces.
The Painter and Swans combo looks better in decks which can tutor all of the pieces.
If you want to play another creature I would prefer another creature which can win the game on it's own (Simic Sky Swallower or Darksteel Colossus).

[Happy Gilmore]

Why do you want to use combos like Painter or Swans?
Guided Passage-> Show and Tell-> Painter sucks because Painter does nothing on it's own.
Guided Passage-> Show and Tell-> Swans sucks too because you still have to find Chain of Plasma
Guided Passage-> Show and Tell-> Tyrant gives you a 5/5 flyer who hurts your opponent everytime you play any spell (and Guided Passage made the opponent to give you a new spell). You don't have to search for other combo pieces.
The Painter and Swans combo looks better in decks which can tutor all of the pieces.
If you want to play another creature I would prefer another creature which can win the game on it's own (Simic Sky Swallower or Darksteel Colossus).

umm....you wouldn't play show and tell if you used the Swan Combo. It costs four not eight. Nor would you pay 1 more, one card more, and let your opponent put a card into play just to get a two mana spell on the board. Plz use your facilties.

[Knuckles29]

Sake of argument:

Running SSS was an idea I had too, if only b/c it is pitchable and outright will win the game w/o problems.

I would like to ask this though, since getting a hold of the creator is probably not gonna happen; does anyone know the ins and outs of this deck well enough to give a few pointers on playing it. I know it isn't rocket-science, but with basically a 75 card deck I was kind of wondering about some of the random SB cards.

Gutteral Response vs REB? I get it can be played for G, but the 2nd ability I would think is useful.

Recoup, Call of the Herd, Primal Commad... I know what they are, but when and why am I wishing for them? I can kinda understand the double duty of Recoup.. probably with a failed Show or replaying Firespout... but Primal Command?????

Is CotH for aggro? Or just more beats???

[CrazyOutsider]

My first version of burning passage run some useless cards in the SB. After playing the tournament, I changed the deck a little.
CotH is trash, because you can better go for Guided Passage or Firespout in mostly every situation.
Regrowth is good, but you need G and R, Recoup creates card advantage, I do play both, but Recoup is the better choice.
Primal Command is simply a random answer to random situations. :wink:
Hull Breach is awesome, but was missing in the original version.
3x SSS is nice in the SB against Shriekmore or Sower. One Living Wish in the SB to go for SSS in game 1 is usefull too.
REB is better than G.Response, because of painter combo.
Cunning Wish is too slow and the only good target was Krosan Grip. It is better to run more removal mainboard instead of CW.
Note that the only idea behind Cryptic Command was to replace other mainboard bounce spells.
Adding Counterbalance and Top is a very good idea because it can handle StP easily, but it can also slow you down in the first rounds.

[Brushwagg]

I remember a deck simular to this back in Invasion type 2. Back then it used Mystic Snake as the creature. I've always liked the card just never got around to using it.

I'm liking the Swans idea since you can hard cast it and Passage will always give you it and if you have enough burn in the deck the Goblin match shouldn't be to much of a problem.

[dude 666]

I already expressed why I think the Swan version is poor- it is strictly inferior to swan thresh.

I've been testing the countertop version, and it's been working pretty well. I'm thinking of going up to 4 tops, since with tyrant out, they are never redundant, and in fact you want to have 2.

The only major problem I've encountered was with dedicated aggro, they're just too fast. This deck has similar problems to MUC in that respect, but I think running propaganda would be a mistake in this deck. Any suggestions?

[CrazyOutsider]

This is my current SB:
3x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Living Wish
1x Pyroclasmn
2x Firespout
1x Hull Breach
1x Show and Tell
1x Guided Passage
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pyroblast
1x Recoup

Against Aggro Pyroclasmn or Firespout is better than Propaganda, because playing it main is useless against control. Playing Propaganda in the SB is crap with the B.Wish access to burn. But the need for 4x B.Wish main is then even greater. In an Aggro-heavy meta it would be a good idea to play Firespout maindeck.
Against control SSS is awesome.

[dude 666]

Playing firespout maindeck sounds terrible. What about lightning bolt? It takes care of creatures, provides reach, and is a good 1cc spell when tyrant is out. I've no idea what to cut for it though.

[CrazyOutsider]

There are two ways to make room for Lightning Bolt in the Countertop version.(Magma Jet could be good, but it is too slow and weak in damage)

1.Cut out other control elements:
- 1x Counterbalance
- 1x Divining Top
- 1x Counterspell
- 1x Spell Snare
+ 4x Lightning Bolt

The second way is to change the deck structure, f.e. cutting out some Show and Tell and Tyrannt, changing the deck into a pure, but slow control deck

Both options create big disadvantages, so it is very hard to change the Maindeck. And playing more non-blue spells means that wasteland or something is hitting you harder.

[dude 666]

The second way is to change the deck structure, f.e. cutting out some Show and Tell and Tyrannt, changing the deck into a pure, but slow control deck

.

Just a question, how do you play the deck? I play it strictly as a control deck that uses tyrant as a win condition. I never show-and-tell him out in the early game unless I have an abundance of cheap spells, and sometimes I even hardcast him. I just wanted to clarify because you implied that you don't play it as a control deck.

[GGoober]

If we run Guided Passage, why not just run Eureka + Show and Tell + Guided Passage to make the deck a lot more consistent, and make a deck that draws and puts a ton of fatties in your hand for Eureka lol.