Swing4Five
07-21-2008, 10:29 PM
First off, this is a rather lengthy post, if you're not going to first read it and then think out your response before hitting 'submit', please do us all a favor and refrain.
I started out Trying to make a MBC / Trainwreck edited list, then as I looked over the various engines and strategies that I wanted to be able to manhandle; and looked @ the Loam engine I thought it might be attractive to run in my own list. Then I decided I wanted to try and abuse some of the Retrace cards, and that Loam really loved it's Red (Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams); and I've moved further and further from the MBC and towards a straight up Loam deck, but kept a flavor of the Control aspect.
It's testing pretty well, but could still use some tweaking. Here's my list, followed by all the reasons for my card choices.
Decklist:
Control Cards: 10
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
Engine Cards: 11
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond
Cards that go Bump In the Night: 12
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Zombie Infestation
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Worm Harvest
Cards that can be Loamed: 28
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Zuran Orb
2 Magus of the Moon / Offalsnout
4 Extirpate
X Shriekmaw / Terravore / Chainer's Edict
X Null Rod
X Chalice of the Void
X Mishra's Factory
0 Shattering Spree
0 Recoup
0 Firestorm
0 Nostalgic Dreams
0 Thoughtseize
0 Hymn to Torach
0 Haunting Echoes
0 Pernicious Deed
0 Damnation
0 Haunting Echoes
0 Pernicious Deed
0 Damnation
Explanations:
Control Cards:
1 Raven's Crime:
Tool against Control and other games that tend to go long, or destroy combo's hand if you manage to get late enough in the game to get this online. One of because only really shines late game and recurable.
4 Sinkhole:
In previous iterations I used a discard suite to keep the opponent off balance until the engine's online, this proved to be insufficient. I added the LD suite in it's place, and it has been functioning better; but I'd replace these if I found yet something else that filled this role better / more synergetic with the engine.
2 Devastating Dreams:
DD kicks opponents when they're down, but sometimes situational; hence 2 of with another Wishable in the board.
3 Engineered Explosives:
EE cleans up anything that leaks through that DD can't or doesn't want to handle, like Tarmogoyf and one of the decks biggest fears: Chalice @ 2. Also Counterbalance.
Engine Cards:
3 Life from the Loam
3 main, 1 Wishable, shouldn't be too hard to grasp the idea here.
4 Burning Wish:
Anything that isn't running correctly BW smoothes it out, the grease to the decks engine.
4 Mox Diamond
Helps smooth mana, enables all the decks brokenness on the 2 slot starting turn 1, keeps you on top after DDs, etc.
Cards that go Bump In the Night:
3 Tarmogoyf
Wasn't any in the first couple iterations of the deck; but she's just too damn efficient to not have in the deck.
2 Zombie Infestation
Earlier versions of the deck could spin it's wheels while not really getting anything done; Tarmogoyf was one part of the package to fix this, ZI is the other. It's somewhat of a replacement of Seismic Assault from the Aggro Loam decks, and while having it on the table isn't nearly as good as an Assault would be, its leagues easier to play.
3 Dark Confidant
Synergetic, supplementary engine that can swing.; 'nuff said.
1 Eternal Witness
Probably one of the weaker slots of the deck, partly due to the double G casting cost; she turns your creature recursion engines into a general recursion engine, as well as just having the ability to grab a back a crucial BW during the midgame that was countered in the early game.
1 Shriekmaw
Eats 'gofys and most other threats straight into the night.
1 Genesis, 1 Retrace 1/1 Worms , 1 Volrath's Stronghold
Parallel recursion engines, I wouldn't want to play 2 of any of these, but I'm happy playing 1 of each, the why's and how's between Genesis and Volrath's have been discussed multiple times in other threads, the same logic that applies to the Genesis argument is mostly also relevant for Worms. ZI often tosses these 2 early game.
Cards that can be Loamed:
It's quite possible, in fact its fairly probable; this isn't the optimal manabase configuration. Manabases have always been one of the hardest parts of the deckbuilding design process for me to get down.
2 Tranquil Thicket, 2 Barren Moor, 2 Forgotten Cave
This configuration is the thing least set in stone. I'm currently using the even split because it keeps extirpate effects from cutting off access to cycle-lands. More testing will probably have me tweaking this.
2 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp, 2 Forest, 3 Bayou, 3 Badlands, 2 Taiga
1 Barbarian Ring
There's 11 sources of Red, and 10 of Black and Green, due mostly to the design of the color alignment of fetchies. Despite Red being the 'splash' color, you always want access to it, but faced with Wasteland effects you want to ensure access to the primary colors first.
3 Wasteland
Waste has the same logic as sinkhole, but recurable @ the cost of the turns land drop. You also want access to colorless to dodge Chalice if necessary.
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam, 1 Raven's Crime, 1 Devastating Dreams
See maindeck explanations.
1 Reverent Silence
Leyline of the Void and the occasional Enchantress deck, in these situations you don't really care about losing an earlier ZI.
1 Pyroclasm
Wishable swarm-sweeper.
2 Chainer's Edict
The only threats I'm really scared of with my removal suite is Tpmbstalker and Dreadnaught Tombstalker dodges EE, and they both dodge Shriekmaw and all but the hugest DDs, these are for them, also come in against decks that play a couple large threats, like Thresh's 'gooses and 'goyfs, and Aggro Loam's 'vores and Crushers.
2 Magus of the Moon / Offalsnout
Magus would be for Landstill and other non-basic heavy metas, 'snouts if you're more scared of Ichorid / Survival / Loam etc. I currently have the Magus'.
4 Extirpate
Shouldn't have to tell you these are good against a number of top strategies, when I was running the discard suite I ran a couple main.
X Terravore / Shriekmaw / Chainer's Edict
Do I need addtional Removal? (Counting Terravore as a sort of psuedo-removal that just is bigger than everyone else).
X Null Rod
These hose the occasional deck, I couldn't find room in this sideboard though.
X Chalice of the Void
If you see a lot of combo you might want to fit these in the board.
X Mishra's Factory
I wanted to fit some of these somewhere, didn't find the room.
0 Shattering Spree
While Chalice @ 2 is one of your banes, a one of Wish target doesn't make any sense against it.
0 Recoup, 0 Firestorm, 0 Nostalgic Dreams, 0 Haunting Echoes, 0 Damnation
Powerful, but too situational and / or slow.
0 Thoughtseize, 0 Hymn to Torach
Logic on my removing the discard suite is above.
0 Pernicious Deed
Was one of my reasons for creating the original lists, but ended up being too anti-synergetic when the Moxen and the Token-makers made the deck.
What I think the main points of discussion here are:
- Method of Control, i.e. attacking mana base vs. attacking hand and board.
+ Wasteland / Sinkhole.
+ Board sweepers.
+ Discard.
- Threat Base
+ Which creatures to play.
+ Manlands?
- Sideboard
+ Wish targets
+ Hate cards
- What strategies is the deck most vulnerable to that requires hate, and the counter strategies to employ.
Edit: Lil clarity @ the beginning.
I started out Trying to make a MBC / Trainwreck edited list, then as I looked over the various engines and strategies that I wanted to be able to manhandle; and looked @ the Loam engine I thought it might be attractive to run in my own list. Then I decided I wanted to try and abuse some of the Retrace cards, and that Loam really loved it's Red (Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams); and I've moved further and further from the MBC and towards a straight up Loam deck, but kept a flavor of the Control aspect.
It's testing pretty well, but could still use some tweaking. Here's my list, followed by all the reasons for my card choices.
Decklist:
Control Cards: 10
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Engineered Explosives
Engine Cards: 11
3 Life from the Loam
4 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond
Cards that go Bump In the Night: 12
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Zombie Infestation
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Worm Harvest
Cards that can be Loamed: 28
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Barren Moor
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Zuran Orb
2 Magus of the Moon / Offalsnout
4 Extirpate
X Shriekmaw / Terravore / Chainer's Edict
X Null Rod
X Chalice of the Void
X Mishra's Factory
0 Shattering Spree
0 Recoup
0 Firestorm
0 Nostalgic Dreams
0 Thoughtseize
0 Hymn to Torach
0 Haunting Echoes
0 Pernicious Deed
0 Damnation
0 Haunting Echoes
0 Pernicious Deed
0 Damnation
Explanations:
Control Cards:
1 Raven's Crime:
Tool against Control and other games that tend to go long, or destroy combo's hand if you manage to get late enough in the game to get this online. One of because only really shines late game and recurable.
4 Sinkhole:
In previous iterations I used a discard suite to keep the opponent off balance until the engine's online, this proved to be insufficient. I added the LD suite in it's place, and it has been functioning better; but I'd replace these if I found yet something else that filled this role better / more synergetic with the engine.
2 Devastating Dreams:
DD kicks opponents when they're down, but sometimes situational; hence 2 of with another Wishable in the board.
3 Engineered Explosives:
EE cleans up anything that leaks through that DD can't or doesn't want to handle, like Tarmogoyf and one of the decks biggest fears: Chalice @ 2. Also Counterbalance.
Engine Cards:
3 Life from the Loam
3 main, 1 Wishable, shouldn't be too hard to grasp the idea here.
4 Burning Wish:
Anything that isn't running correctly BW smoothes it out, the grease to the decks engine.
4 Mox Diamond
Helps smooth mana, enables all the decks brokenness on the 2 slot starting turn 1, keeps you on top after DDs, etc.
Cards that go Bump In the Night:
3 Tarmogoyf
Wasn't any in the first couple iterations of the deck; but she's just too damn efficient to not have in the deck.
2 Zombie Infestation
Earlier versions of the deck could spin it's wheels while not really getting anything done; Tarmogoyf was one part of the package to fix this, ZI is the other. It's somewhat of a replacement of Seismic Assault from the Aggro Loam decks, and while having it on the table isn't nearly as good as an Assault would be, its leagues easier to play.
3 Dark Confidant
Synergetic, supplementary engine that can swing.; 'nuff said.
1 Eternal Witness
Probably one of the weaker slots of the deck, partly due to the double G casting cost; she turns your creature recursion engines into a general recursion engine, as well as just having the ability to grab a back a crucial BW during the midgame that was countered in the early game.
1 Shriekmaw
Eats 'gofys and most other threats straight into the night.
1 Genesis, 1 Retrace 1/1 Worms , 1 Volrath's Stronghold
Parallel recursion engines, I wouldn't want to play 2 of any of these, but I'm happy playing 1 of each, the why's and how's between Genesis and Volrath's have been discussed multiple times in other threads, the same logic that applies to the Genesis argument is mostly also relevant for Worms. ZI often tosses these 2 early game.
Cards that can be Loamed:
It's quite possible, in fact its fairly probable; this isn't the optimal manabase configuration. Manabases have always been one of the hardest parts of the deckbuilding design process for me to get down.
2 Tranquil Thicket, 2 Barren Moor, 2 Forgotten Cave
This configuration is the thing least set in stone. I'm currently using the even split because it keeps extirpate effects from cutting off access to cycle-lands. More testing will probably have me tweaking this.
2 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp, 2 Forest, 3 Bayou, 3 Badlands, 2 Taiga
1 Barbarian Ring
There's 11 sources of Red, and 10 of Black and Green, due mostly to the design of the color alignment of fetchies. Despite Red being the 'splash' color, you always want access to it, but faced with Wasteland effects you want to ensure access to the primary colors first.
3 Wasteland
Waste has the same logic as sinkhole, but recurable @ the cost of the turns land drop. You also want access to colorless to dodge Chalice if necessary.
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam, 1 Raven's Crime, 1 Devastating Dreams
See maindeck explanations.
1 Reverent Silence
Leyline of the Void and the occasional Enchantress deck, in these situations you don't really care about losing an earlier ZI.
1 Pyroclasm
Wishable swarm-sweeper.
2 Chainer's Edict
The only threats I'm really scared of with my removal suite is Tpmbstalker and Dreadnaught Tombstalker dodges EE, and they both dodge Shriekmaw and all but the hugest DDs, these are for them, also come in against decks that play a couple large threats, like Thresh's 'gooses and 'goyfs, and Aggro Loam's 'vores and Crushers.
2 Magus of the Moon / Offalsnout
Magus would be for Landstill and other non-basic heavy metas, 'snouts if you're more scared of Ichorid / Survival / Loam etc. I currently have the Magus'.
4 Extirpate
Shouldn't have to tell you these are good against a number of top strategies, when I was running the discard suite I ran a couple main.
X Terravore / Shriekmaw / Chainer's Edict
Do I need addtional Removal? (Counting Terravore as a sort of psuedo-removal that just is bigger than everyone else).
X Null Rod
These hose the occasional deck, I couldn't find room in this sideboard though.
X Chalice of the Void
If you see a lot of combo you might want to fit these in the board.
X Mishra's Factory
I wanted to fit some of these somewhere, didn't find the room.
0 Shattering Spree
While Chalice @ 2 is one of your banes, a one of Wish target doesn't make any sense against it.
0 Recoup, 0 Firestorm, 0 Nostalgic Dreams, 0 Haunting Echoes, 0 Damnation
Powerful, but too situational and / or slow.
0 Thoughtseize, 0 Hymn to Torach
Logic on my removing the discard suite is above.
0 Pernicious Deed
Was one of my reasons for creating the original lists, but ended up being too anti-synergetic when the Moxen and the Token-makers made the deck.
What I think the main points of discussion here are:
- Method of Control, i.e. attacking mana base vs. attacking hand and board.
+ Wasteland / Sinkhole.
+ Board sweepers.
+ Discard.
- Threat Base
+ Which creatures to play.
+ Manlands?
- Sideboard
+ Wish targets
+ Hate cards
- What strategies is the deck most vulnerable to that requires hate, and the counter strategies to employ.
Edit: Lil clarity @ the beginning.