Deck Development: The Fastest Most Aggressive Elf List Possible.

[Clark Kant]

This entire block has been filled with a crapload of very aggressive elves. So now that this tribal block is finally done, I am interested in using the elves to develop the most aggressive elf list possibe.

I'm thinking it should look something like this...

14 Forest
2 Pendelhaven
2 Gaea's Cradle

4 Concordant Crossroads
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Talara's Battalion
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Wren's Run Packmaster
4 Wilt Leaf Liege
4 Chamelleon Collasus
4 Sylvan Messenger

X Mana Elves (Llanwor Fyndhorn)
X Various Elf Lords (Imperious Perfect)
X Aggressive Elves (Wolf Skull Shaman)
X Pump Elves (Tribal Forcemage, Immaculate Magistrate)

The entire point of this particular thread is to build the "Fastest Most Aggressive Elf List Possible." I don't see a single thread after Eventide and Talara's Battalion were spoiled that is focused entirely on aggression. Wren's Run Vanquisher can go head to head with the best creature ever printed (Tarmogoyf).

This thread is to approach elves like a Burn deck, to build a deck that wins on turn four regularly and consistently but often scoops to combo. All the other elf lists I've seen don't win on turn 4 with any regularity.

Burn decks despite their vulnerability to combo as well as cards like Chalice and Counterbalance manage to win many tournaments and are now in the deck to beat section. This deck goes for the same thing but without the vulnerability to Chalice and Counterbalance (which see far too much play these days), but instead being vulnerable to Wrath effects (which currently see minimal play in legacy).

It's clock is slowed by control a bit but still regularly manages to overwhelm any and every control deck out there with more brokenly strong creatures than they could ever hope to counter, and also to overwhelm aggro because the best elves are on par with the best aggro creatures in any deck. This deck isn't built properly if it doesn't automatically concede to combo preboard (same as any burn deck). :tongue:

As you can see, I know some of the best elves but I don't know all of them. And I am completely lost of what ratios to use or which of the many great elves are the best of the best.

So any help would be much appreciated.

I am reaching to all you elf affiandos out there.

[Waikiki]

I am seeing nothing new to other list in elf threads. Why does this list need his own thread?

[Clark Kant]

Techno, is your primer going to feature atleast one list similar to mine that is focused entirely on aggression. Or is it mostly utility and combo oriented like most of the elf lists out there? If you're not already planning on a pure aggro elf build, I strongly suggest using this thread as a jumping point and include atleast one developed purely aggro elf deck in your primer.


I am seeing nothing new to other list in elf threads. Why does this list need his own thread?

You're overlooking the main point of this whole thread which is to build the "Fastest Most Aggressive Elf List Possible." Show me one recent thread (after Eventide and Talara's Battalion were spoiled) that is focused entirely on aggression.

This thread is approaching elves like a Burn deck, to build a deck that wins on turn four regularly and consistently but often scoops to combo. All the other elf lists I've seen don't win on turn 4 with any regularity.

Burn decks despite their vulnerability to combo as well as cards like Chalice and Counterbalance manage to win many tournaments and are now in the deck to beat section. This deck goes for the same thing but without the vulnerability to Chalice and Counterbalance (which see far too much play these days), but instead being vulnerable to Wrath effects (which currently see minimal play in legacy).

All I see are a bunch of controllish/comboish lists filled with utility cards rather than aggressive creatures.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many games, this deck is actually faster than burn, much faster. It can easily win on turn two or three with Concordant Crossroads.

For example. Turn one Forest, Concordant Crossroads, Discard ESG, Play Llanowar Elves, Tap and Play Fyndhorn Elves, Tap it to play Skyshroud Elite, Attack for 2. Turn 2 Play Priest of Titania, Play a Elf Lord (Wilt Leaf Liege and either Talara's Battalion or Immaculate Magistrate (to pump the Elite into a 9/10) and with all the crapload of mana, attack possibly for lethal damage with an army of 2/2 or 3/3 or bigger elves for a turn 2 or turn 3 win.

I'm thinking that Priest of Titania absolutely belongs in this list as it can dump your whole hand on turn two. And Elvish Spirit Guide probably does too.

[Willoe]

Your goal is to produce as many undercosted beaters as possible.

You'll still need Priest of Titania to make this really good as well as Fyndhorn and Llanowar. Being able to produce three mana on turn 2 can be vital. With Cradle, you can produce even more. Turn 1, forest, mana elf. Turn 2, tap elf, play mana elf, tap forest, play gaea's cradle, tap for three, concordant crossroads, priest of titania, go broken, wirewood symbiote, go broken. That is an aggressive hand. You can also go other ways with a vanquisher and/or a batallion on turn 2. That is good.

[Kuma]

I agree. If you aren't going to run Priest of Titania, it will be hard to cast Talara's Battalion.

I'm not sure the Burn analogy is correct here, as a lot of Burn's power comes from its ability to make all forms of permanent removal useless. Even if we can achieve a similar clock to burn, I'm not convinced we'll have the same level of success.

I'll try to come up with a list later.

[Mordenkaynen]

There is one trend that increase the vulnerability of the deck:
Talara's Battalion needs another spell played the same turn;
Wren's Run Packmaster needs another elf to champion;
Wren's Run Vanquisher needs another elf to reveal.
Hence if your opponent managed to control you in early game it will be difficult to establish your threat later (your threats become dead draws!).

Some (crappy?) elves:
Selesnya Guildmage, Viridian Zealot, Wolf-Skull Shaman, Bramblewood Paragon.
No good aggressive 1cc and 2cc elf drops (except may be Twinblade Slasher, Skyshroud Elite).

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Burn decks despite their vulnerability to combo as well as cards like Chalice and Counterbalance manage to win many tournaments and are now in the deck to beat section. This deck goes for the same thing but without the vulnerability to Chalice and Counterbalance (which see far too much play these days), but instead being vulnerable to Wrath effects (which currently see minimal play in legacy).

While I see your point and it sounds like a good idea, elves have a few more weaknesses than you make it sound like. Deed sees play quite often, from my experiences, and that could be a problem. Also, Kuma is right about burn's big advantage in making many of the opponents cards dead. A lot of people aren't expecting to die to burn on turn four with two tarmogoyfs.

Elves on the other hand can be answered easier than burn. Things like moat, tabernacle, creature removal, and even just blockers can halt your victory. Goblins can consistently win on turn four if it is does not face any disruption or blockers via lackey, and other aggro decks can win very fast if not stopped as well. If your opponent is swords/smothering your key creatures, wasting your Gaea's Cradles, blocking with goyfs, dropping moats and needles, etc. then you are not going to consistently win on turn four.

Burn's immunity is what has made it a deck to beat, not speed alone.

Now that's out of the way, I still think this can be a good deck, since you have a very good point about chalice and counterbalance, which see a lot of play and pretty much make burn scoop. I think the main issue is making this deck able to compete with the aggro power of other decks like goblins, angel stompy, fairy stompy, etc. that are fast AND run answers like creature removal.

Now I guess I should make at least one suggestion. How about Berserk? That card has WIN FAST written all over it. Also, about the sideboard, I guess there should be krosan grips. And if you don't want to concede every match to combo, chalice would work well. You could drop it at 1 on turn one with elvish spirit guide. Or you could just drop it at zero and race them (since they won't usually have blockers :wink: ). It would also help against thresh.

[Kuma]

You can't run Chalice in an Elf deck. You may be able to drop it fast, but since your cards all cost one or two you're probably hurting yourself as much or more than your opponent. Elves are also vulnerable to Counterbalance (although considerably less so than Burn), which kind of makes me think that we aren't going to be able to make this better than Burn.

The reason aggro decks like Goblins and Faerie Stompy succeed is that they are able to run removal as well as beaters. Elves isn't able to easily run removal. The best we could do is Jitte, SoFI, and Wren's Run Vanquisher. Although Wizards has given us some interesting tools of late in Lace with Moonglove, Mercy Killing and Snakeform. Snakeform, especially, seems interesting and possibly powerful.

Since we can't really run removal, we need either a faster clock than other aggro, or some sort of backup plan. I could see an ElfStax list that transforms into aggro being viable. Siding out the artifacts when your opponent is bringing in artifact removal would be deviously awesome.

[B4L4]

Manamorphose could be a good tech to cast Talara's Battalion.

And don't forget another new tools from eventide for an aggro list, "Nettle Sentinel", the elvish isamaru.

Also, i think for an aggressive approch, we should avoid 4cc cards (Chamelleon, messenger and packmaster), cause those cards need priest to be worth playing, and priest isn't aggresive, cause if priest is able to produce lot of mana, it means you are already in a good position with many elves on board.
(and the same is true for cradle)

I think rancor or keen sense deserve more attention here, at least rancor.

And from my small experience with this deck, the boost from imperious perfect was good (was the only 3cc card i run, (i don"t consider ESG here)), but the ability to make token was never relevant.
So maybe elvish champion could be better here, it give the same boost and allow us to forestwalk goyf.deck.

[Roman Candle]

Wrath effects (which currently see minimal play in legacy).

Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Powder Keg, and even Moat (it totally counts as a Wrath effect in my book) would like to have a word with you.

[Team-Hero]

Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Wrath of God, Powder Keg, and even Moat (it totally counts as a Wrath effect in my book) would like to have a word with you.

+
Humility, Damnation, Perish, Eng. Plague, Pyroclasm, Rough//Tumble, and Tabernacle

[dahcmai]

You could always go old school and run Winter Orb. It's still amazingly annoying to just about every deck out there.

[Roman Candle]

You could always go old school and run Winter Orb. It's still amazingly annoying to just about every deck out there.

Except the ones that operate off of two to three lands anyway. You know, like all of them. Minus Landstill and MUC.

[Curby]

I think technogeek's aggro elf list is close to the best you're going to get going pure aggro. I've expanded the analysis at MTGS:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=112818

If you want frequent 4 turn kills, you'll have to have some combo component, and the Concordant Crossroads in your opening list seems like a concession to that inevitability. Xroads doesn't deal damage or pump creatures, so it in itself is a useless offense card (see what sort of cards I think belong in an aggro deck above). What it does do is speed up other cards and strategies, which is the heart and soul of combo.

You know, they call Burn slow combo. Instead of getting a threshold of 10 spells and casting Tendrils for the kill, Burn gets a threshold of 7 spells resolved at the enemy for the kill.

By the way, they can cast Wrath on turn 4, which is enough if they're on the play. Why not just combo off before they can bring their hate online? Because combo elves are even more easily disrupted, and even less consistent than an aggro strategy. So run technogeek's list, which offers both consistency and resilience. And we're back to my first point. :cool:

Edit: Yeah, Winter Orb's great, but some people nowadays use Thorn of Amethyst. See also the link above.

[Clark Kant]

Concordant Crossroads is downright broken. Why wouldn't you play it. An early crossroads = the game ends one turn sooner. It's practically a 1cc Time Walk. You can play out all your elves on turn two and yet still have the mana play a Vanquisher or something and attack with it to get some more damage in.

This deck's curve is about as diverse as a deck's curve could get. So I don't see how you can consider Engineered Explosives a wrath effect.


+
Humility, Damnation, Perish, Eng. Plague, Pyroclasm, Rough//Tumble, and Tabernacle

Well my statement was that Wrath effects don't see anywhere near as much play as cards like Chalice of the Void and Countertop. It seems like just about every deck runs those two cards. Where as I could count on one hand the legacy viable decks that run any of those cards.

[yawg07]

Elves make me excited, then I remember Skullclamp is banned :cry:

[Willoe]

Concordant Crossroads is downright broken. Why wouldn't you play it. An early crossroads = the game ends one turn sooner.

Yeah, but you waste one green mana and a card. That's waste of time, in my opinion. What would you rather play one turn 1, a crossroads or a creature ready to attack for the next turn? Here's it pretty irrelevant what you play unless you want to get under Daze's and such if you are on the play. On turn 2 though, you'll delay yourself. Say you're going to play like this:

Turn 1, forest, Skyshroud Elite
Turn 2, forest, EITHER skyshroud elite and Concordant Crossroads
Or:
Wren's Run Vanquisher. You can possibly deal two more damage with crossroads, but a hasted goyf is no fun for you. Plus various decks that will get such an advantage from it, and it isn't even their card. I can't see the advantage here. It's a very conditional timewalk. If you're looking at it with time-walking glasses, you can see the advantages and disadvantages of it as you see advantages and disadvantages of Seedtime. Really, they do practically the same giving as much speed as they are as conditional.

Crossroads is a very sucky top-deck, we don't want that. That is a paradox. You want to sit with it in your opening hand, and the greater the chance is of this, the greater number you have to add. They suck in multiples and you don't want to topdeck one. Logically, there's more disadvantages than advantages, so I'd cut it.

Even though it's fun to develop this, I can't see it being any better than burn.

[Kuma]

Elves make me excited, then I remember Skullclamp is banned :cry:

Elves make me excited, then I remember that Eladamri doesn't give himself shroud and forestwalk.

Man, I miss Crystalline Elves. In a format with Tarmogoyf, that deck was at least 50/50 with everything that ran Forests.

I've ran Concordant Crossroads in aggro elves before, and believe me, you'll make better use of it than your opponent. Dropping a Priest of Titania and immediately using it feels like cheating. You can also do silly things like drop a mana elf, tap it, play another mana elf, tap it, drop another elf.

Why are we so worried about hasty Tarmogoyfs? We can run our own hasty Tarmogoyfs and we probably should.

[Alfred]

If you want frequent 4 turn kills, you'll have to have some combo component, and the Concordant Crossroads in your opening list seems like a concession to that inevitability. Xroads doesn't deal damage or pump creatures, so it in itself is a useless offense card (see what sort of cards I think belong in an aggro deck above).

It's a useless offense card? What are you talking about? How is giving your creatures haste not something good for offense? Are you telling me that Goblin Warchief's ability is useless for an offensive strategy?

You are totally wrong.

[Elficidium]

It's a useless offense card? What are you talking about? How is giving your creatures haste not something good for offense? Are you telling me that Goblin Warchief's ability is useless for an offensive strategy?
You are totally wrong.
Warchief provides a mana discount and beats for 2. Warchief is always a good topdeck, because it's at least some hasted damage to the dome, where crossroads just plain sucks after a boardsweeper.

[Alfred]

Warchief provides a mana discount and beats for 2. Warchief is always a good topdeck, because it's at least some hasted damage to the dome, where crossroads just plain sucks after a boardsweeper.


He said that giving haste to your creatures is a "useless offensive ability". Do you believe that is true?

[Clark Kant]

Turn 1, forest, Skyshroud Elite
Turn 2, forest, EITHER skyshroud elite and Concordant Crossroads
Or:
Wren's Run Vanquisher.

Why would you play your hand out like that?

What you ought to play is...

Turn 1 Forest, Crossroads
Turn 2 Forest, Llanowar Elves, and both your Skyshroud Elite and attack for 4
Turn 3 Priest of Titania, Tap to add 5 to mana pool, tap two forest, Wren Run's Vanquisher or Talara's Battalion or Imperious Perfect, Wilt Leaf Liege, Attack for attack for 16-22 damage killing your opponent.

[rufus]

I think that elves need some kind of aggro/combo approach to be competitive. Something like this, but without the jank:

3x Tropical Island
1x Gaea's Cradle
4x Land Grant
4x Chrome Mox
4x Elven Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal

4x Daze
4x Brainstorm

4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fydhorn Elves
4x Priest of Titania
4x Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

2x Umbral Mantle
2x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Recross the Paths
2x Stroke of Genious
2x Regal Force
2x Tribal Forcemage
4x Summoner's Pact

[rufus]

Why would you play your hand out like that?

What you ought to play is...

Turn 1 Forest, Crossroads
Turn 2 Forest, Llanowar Elves, and both your Skyshroud Elite and attack for 4
Turn 3 Priest of Titania, Tap to add 5 to mana pool, tap two forest, Wren Run's Vanquisher or Talara's Battalion or Imperious Perfect, Wilt Leaf Liege, Attack for attack for 16-22 damage killing your opponent.

It seems like Root Maze > Concordant Crossroads for elf decks.

[Clark Kant]

Maybe splashing blue for stuff like Daze and Brainstorm may work in some elf variant and may well be viable.

But if you read the title of the thread, that's clearly not what this thread is about.

Besides what you posted barely qualifies as an elf deck at all.

Please discuss such decklists in other elf threads. Thank you.

If you do want to play a random combo in an aggressive elf deck, then sure, play 4 Priest of Titania, 2 Roefflos, and 2 Umbral Mantle, as those cards synergize with the deck.

But leave it at that, don't cut elves to add cards like Brainstorm and Daze.


It seems like Root Maze > Concordant Crossroads for elf decks.

Both are good cards, but they are not at all comparable and can't substitute for each other. An opening hand with Crossroads, often speeds up your kill by two turns. An opening Root Maze slows your opponent by about 1.5 turns but also slows you down by 1.5 turns (the turn you spent to cast Root Maze over an Elf, and then the subsequent slow down you get from not being able to use your lands right away and not leading with a turn one mana elf)

Root Maze imo is at best a sideboard card. It belongs maindeck in Stax type decks, not in an extremely aggressive elf deck. I don't think he evens makes the cut in the sideboard

If you are looking for good disruption, play Thorn of Amethyst in this deck. I plan to sideboard a full playset and bring them in along with 4 Chalices (subbing out some of my few 1cc spells) to really hate on Thresh and combo.

[Kuma]

Here's what I came up with for a fastest aggro elf deck possible.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
13 [UNH] Forest
1 [LG] Pendelhaven
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
3 [EX] Skyshroud Elite
3 [LE] Gempalm Strider
3 [IN] Elvish Champion
4 [MOR] Wolf-Skull Shaman
2 [EVE] Talara's Battalion
1 [UD] Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 [US] Priest of Titania
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [LRW] Wren's Run Vanquisher
2 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
2 [A] Llanowar Elves

// Spells
4 [LG] Concordant Crossroads

This deck has a very consistent turn four goldfish, and can once in a while win on turn three. What's funny is that I think this deck is a little slower than my Staff of Domination combo list, although this one is probably a little more resiliant to removal.

Crossroads may be a lousy topdeck once in a while, but you shouldn't lack for creatures since this deck runs forty of them, some of which make even more creatures. If you aren't drawing enough business spells, it isn't because of Concordant Crossroads. Crossroads leads to explosive openings, and definitely belongs in any aggro list.

[Clark Kant]

I think you are on to something but please cut the Tarmogoyf and up the number of Llanowars, Fyndhorns (they abuse Crossroads like crazy) and play a full playset of Talara's Battallion.

I would max out on the Llanowars and Fyndhorms before playing Elvish Spirit Guides. Thanks to Crossroads, the former because as strong at tempo as the latter.

Play Wilt Leaf Liege. He is such an insanely strong card in this deck. Stronger than both Elvish Champion and Imperious Perfect.

Goyf doesn't work in this deck at all. You have absolutely no means to fill the yard, no instants, no sorceries, no artifacts, no fetchlands, nothing. If they kill a creature of yours, Goyf is still at best a 1/2.

You are completely 100% dependent on your opponent to fill their yard which works versus some decks but there's many many random matchups where this is a bad idea.

Also Goyf isn't an elf and thus has zero synergy with Priest of Titania, or Wilt Leaf Liege or the many other pump elves you play.

[Kuma]

I think you are on to something but please cut the Tarmogoyf and up the number of Llanowars, Fyndhorns (they abuse Crossroads like crazy) and play a full playset of Talara's Battallion.

Even with all our green spells, Talara's Battalion is hard to cast before turn four. Honestly, I was thinking about cutting the other two. You may be right about goyf.


I would max out on the Llanowars and Fyndhorms before playing Elvish Spirit Guides. Thanks to Crossroads, the former because as strong at tempo as the latter.

You don't always have a Concordant Crossroads. I might give that a shot anyway.


Play Wilt Leaf Liege. He is such an insanely strong card in this deck. Stronger than both Elvish Champion and Imperious Perfect.

I completely disagree. Forestwalk alone makes Champion better than Liege, and Perfect creates armies. And then there's the issue of four mana, which isn't undoable for this deck, but isn't exactly conducive to being as fast as possible.


Goyf doesn't work in this deck at all. You have absolutely no means to fill the yard, no instants, no sorceries, no artifacts, no fetchlands, nothing. If they kill a creature of yours, Goyf is still at best a 1/2.

Yeah, you're probably right. When you run 40 creatures, you have to rely completely on your opponent. Then again, that isn't always a problem. I'll have to test it.


Also Goyf isn't an elf and thus has zero synergy with Priest of Titania, or Wilt Leaf Liege or the many other pump elves you play.

This is the worst reason not to run goyf, but like I said, I'll have to try it out. It wasn't a problem in the past, but the list I ran it in was quite different.

[Barook]

If I'm not too bored, I'm going to test this list:

3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
13 [RAV] Forest (1)
1 [TSB] Pendelhaven
4 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [10E] Llanowar Elves
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [10E] Elvish Champion
3 [EVE] Talara's Battalion
4 [LRW] Wren's Run Vanquisher

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [TE] Cursed Scroll
4 [UL] Crop Rotation

It goldfishes between turn 4-5 most of the times. Cradle is pretty insane here, which is also a reason to run 4 Crop Rotation (which can also turn Forests you don't need anymore into more Mutavaults.

[Curby]

Re: Xroads in aggro, please re-read what I said. To wit:


Xroads doesn't deal damage or pump creatures, so it in itself is a useless offense card. What it does do is speed up other cards and strategies, which is the heart and soul of combo.

I explained why Xroads is not an offense card. It is not the same as saying that it's useless altogether. Instead, it's quite useful in combo or combo/aggro situations. However, in and of itself it isn't aggro. A deck with n basic lands and 60-n Xroads will make you lose to a goldfish, unlike any real offense card.

Semantics aside, I still don't think you want it in a deck that wants to focus on aggro. The deck already has explosive starts. You want to improve its resilience in the face of hate and improve its consistency. I understand that the point of this thread is to focus on speed, but my point is that getting speed at the expense of all else results in a combo bent anyway. It's still an interesting thought exercise, though.

[SuckerPunch]

A deck with n basic lands and 60-n Xroads will make you lose to a goldfish, unlike any real offense card.

Not trying to pick a fight. But according to that definition, wouldn't Rancor, Berserk, Unstable Mutation and a whole host of uber aggressive cards not be considered offense cards.

Giving all creatures haste in a deck filled with attackers I think does qualify as an offense card.

Xroads lets you cast Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Priest of Titania, Wilt Leaf Liege and a Skyshroud Elite and swing for 7 damage all on just turn 2, and then next turn swing for a lethal 16 damage on turn 3 without having to cast a single additional spell. That sounds aggressive to me.

Being able to attack the same turn that you cast a creature adds resilience to a deck that is vulnerable to wrath effects, and is prone to having to bounce back it's creatures using Wirewood Symbiote in response to them. Attacking that same turn that you cast a spells lets you recover that much faster, and ensures that your guys always get in a swing atleast.