Fossil4182
07-23-2008, 01:31 PM
For a little bit of background, this deck was a result of the sum of me playing Threshold and the Rock, and the realization that Countertop and Pernicious Deed are arguably the two most powerful cards in Legacy. So I took what I like the best from these two decks and some merged the concepts together. Here's the deck list.
Maindeck
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Predict
Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment
4 Counterbalance
4 Pernicious Deed
Creature
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
Sorcery
4 Ponder
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Explanation
The deck is designed to take some of the better elements that are offered from both decks and put them together. Threshold, despite any misgivings, still matches up well against a lot of the format. Between Gofy, the constant Cantrips and the Counterbalance/Top engine, the deck can effectively dig for its answers fairly quickly and can keep the pressure up fairly well. However, Threshold has a hard time winning games where the opponent tends to stabilize or gets a good board presence. Grip can help and Engineered Explosives are both effective answers, however they still leave some things to be desired. The Rock on the other hand has great answers to problems with Precocious Deed as well as cards like Duress/Thoughtseize and Ghastly Demise/Smother/Diabolic Edict to answer threats. However, like many other decks, Rock lacks the draw elements that make Threshold effective in being able to dig for answers. Before I designed this deck, I looked at playing Its the Fear. The deck was good in that it combined some elements like Deed and EE with the Countertop Engine, however I felt that while Intuition was a powerful card, the deck reverted to Top-Deck mode too often and it became problematic when other decks could generate actual card advantage and I was stuck recurring a creature/artifact. In addition to that, the 4 color mana base did give me access to Swords to Plowshare, however I found the mana base too unstable and vulnerable to disputation. So this deck was designed to answer some of those problems and also provide a stable and effective deck.
The deck works similar to Threshold builds in that throughout the earlier turns, it seeks to dig for whatever it needs. Here are some of the card selections and justifications for using what I do.
-Ghastly Demise answers a lot of the creature problems fairly well. I know by a long shot that Swords to Plowshare is just superior to it in every way stay one: mana problems. Splashing White does allow me to play Swords, however I would rather keep a sturdier mana base over sacrificing that to have access to better removal. Its still being tested so we'll see where we end up.
-Deed is more than likely the best card in Legacy right now. Most of converted mana costs for cards in the format tops out around 4. (There are outliers like Tombstalker ect) Resolving Deed and blowing it usually will ensure a victory or at least buy you a few more turns. I like the idea of Deed because it gives you access to the reset button that Threshold always lacked. I'll grant EE is awesome, but Deed is simply uhmazing.
-Predict is there to generate real card advantage. I'm not sold on this being used in the final build. Its two mana for two cards (in most cases) and its fairly effective. However, I'm thinking about taking a note from UGb Threshold and replacing it with Dark Confidant. DC is better in a lot of ways assuming he doesn't get burned or Swords away. He also functions as a win condition. However he doesn't give you that immediate trade off that Predict can and you loose life each time you draw with him unless you picking up lands.
-Daze is a must for me. I would say that this slot is one of the more debate slots for me as well, however I see a lot of crazy stuff in my area like Ichorid, 2 Land Belcher, Goblins (crazy huh?) so having a first turn counter to back up FoW is almost necessary for me. Later in games, it usually sits atop my deck as the 2cc card for Counterbalance and if necessary is draw to pitch to Force of Will.
-Nimble Mongoose was an easy pick for me. I can't describe the feeling of watching someone cringe at the sight of a 1/1 that can't be targeted and the cringe turning into oh *#^@ when it becomes a 3/3. His inclusion comes from 3 different feelings. First is that while playing Rock I learned that it good to be able to drop a few creatures in succession and be able to keep the pressure up. Second, Threshold decks that ran 8-12 creatures seemed to be able to do this well enough with all of the Cantrips and digging. Finally, when playing Its the Fear, I didn't like relying on only Tarmagoyf and Shackles to win me games. Don't get me wrong, Tarmagoyf is awesome, but he's not Morphling. So adding in some backup at the cost of only G for an effective creature seemed like a good idea.
-CounterTop is too good not to play. It generates so much card advantage by being able to counter effectively that its stupid not to play it if you can work it into your deck. I was worried for a while that this deck would end up being just a UGb Threshold deck, but I opted to run Deed and Countertop which I didn't see a lot (or any) of that Threshold decks doing. So being able to work with this engine gives me a lot of versatility and Stamina that other decks just don't have.
-Ponder is included because of my love of using it in Threshold. There very may well be a better way to utilize this slot, but I'll leave that up for discussion. Its extremely powerful and can be used to shuffle away a poor top three, or set you up for a Predict. In addition to that, its a Sorcery which kind of leaves something to be desired until you drop Tarmagoyf and realize you're getting an addition +1/+1 because you have a Sorcery in the yard. It digs, it shuffles, it cantrips and feeds the goyf.
Sideboard
The sideboard for this deck is where I am coming up short. I can say with certainty a couple of things about my meta with stuff I'll expect to see. Red will usually show up in some form. Whether its burn or Rbg Goblins, I can expect to see some form of Red being played at each event. Combo is also huge right now with 2 Land Belcher and Ichorid being play often. Meathooks tends to show up every now and again as does Deadguy Ale. I'm still playing around with it and its no where solid by any means, but here's what I have thus far:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
I'm somewhat at a lose as to where to go from here. Engineered Plague would help against the Goblins match and to a less extent the Sliver match up, however I think as with both decks I would rather see Engineered Explosives. Pithing Needle and or Stifle help against the Belcher match up fairly well. Chill is also another alternative to BeB to deal with Goblins and Burn (assuming Goblins doesn't get a Vial online).
Results
So I took the deck out for a spin this evening and ended up winning. I also have some match up analysis to add as well, but the report will have to do for now.
Round 1: Ichorid
G1 starts off with me keeping a hand with Deed, Daze and Goyf. I'm able to resolve a Mongoose and Gofy and blow the Deed at one to take care of the Bridges, and tokens. However he dredges three times during the next turn and gets something sick like 3 Ichorids and proceeds to beat the living hell out of me. Goyf couldn't help and I didn't have enough mana to resolve a second Deed.
G2 sees me board in Leyline, EE and Needle. I open with Leyline and say go. He casts Cabal Therapy naming FoW and I reveal that I have none in hand. However he sees that I have two Daze in hand. I draw for turn and Topdeck Brainstorm. He attempts to remove the Leyline, I Daze and he can't pay. He ends up scoping.
G3 I mulligan a hand that looked something like this: Trop Island, Fetch, Goyf, Goyf, Goyf, Brainstrom, Ponder. I'm not sure if I should of kept and tried to race, but it all works out in the end. I go to six and don't see anything except Top and Daze (Oh wait, those cards suck against Ichorid) so I go to Five and see: Leyline, Leyline, Ponder, Fetch, Goyf. I keep... He attempts to remove one of the Leylines on turn three but I'm able to answer with a Daze and at that point, he scoops.
1-0 (2-1)
Round 2: Affinity
G1: He's able to get a Plating equipped and uses it along with Shrapnel Blast to make fairly quick work of me. I really didn't see anything worth while and the game was over after 2 Frogs on turn one and an enforcer on turn two followed by Plating.... you get the rest I'm sure
G2: I keep a hand that has Top, Deed, FoW, Goyf and 2 Land plus a Fetch. He hasn't seen me play Deed yet so I hold it until he over commits dropping his entire hand. I play Deed and pass the turn. I top deck a land the following turn and lay it putting me with a Top and Deed on the board and him with nearly all artifacts on the board. I blow Deed for 2 wiping everything out except and drop a Goyf and on the following turn set up the Countertop engine and proceed to win.
G3: Similar enough to G2 to not warrant a write up.
2-0 (4-2)
Round 3: 2 Land Belcher
This took out Goblins and Rock which makes me happy so I was pretty happy to play it.
G1: I win the roll and after a few turns of land laying, he is able to Storm out 10 tokens with EtW on turn 2. I drop a Deed on turn three which cases him headaches. He never really has a chance to recover since I'm able to counter his attempts at a Burning Wish and Tutor. The games ends with Goyf and Mongoose beating him.
G2: I keep a hand that has Daze, FoW, Blue Card, Brainstorm, Island and EE plus other. I top deck into a FoW which makes me even happier. He attempts to resolve Belcher twice, but I'm able to counter it. I get two Goyfs out and put him on a quick clock. He sided in Pacts of Negation and it becomes a problem when his Third Belcher resolves thanks to Pact. However I have a Stifle in hand and Stifle the activation giving me the turn I need to win.
3-0 (6-2)
The event was single round elimination so unfortunately I didn't the chance to play the rest of the decks in the event. But the info was fairly helpful. I think a great deal of luck was involved with Ichorid. Game one isn't an Auto-loss, but its pretty close to it. Post board, digging to be able to play Leyline is key. Is just that simple. Unless I want to add Crypts or Jailers its a must in order to win the matchup. Affinity was very quick and fairly strong. I'll post the Goblins match up later, but Deed is the best answer the deck has. Being able to time it and use it as a reset button was great. I was able to clear the board with Deed, follow up with Goyf and then drop Countertop and lock the game up from there. That actually was the way I would have envisioned the deck playing so it was nice to see it go off in a place besides testing. Belcher hadn't really concerned me. I had always had a good game against it with Threshold and this deck has better answers post board as well as Deed which works great against tokens, Diamonds, Mox, Tinderwall.
I'll post the rest of the match ups tomorrow: Goblins, Threshold, Dragonstompy, Landstill. I was also able to go back and get in a couple of more games with the aforementioned decks in the report so I should have a much more in-depth analysis tomorrow.
Maindeck
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Ghastly Demise
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Predict
Artifact
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment
4 Counterbalance
4 Pernicious Deed
Creature
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
Sorcery
4 Ponder
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Explanation
The deck is designed to take some of the better elements that are offered from both decks and put them together. Threshold, despite any misgivings, still matches up well against a lot of the format. Between Gofy, the constant Cantrips and the Counterbalance/Top engine, the deck can effectively dig for its answers fairly quickly and can keep the pressure up fairly well. However, Threshold has a hard time winning games where the opponent tends to stabilize or gets a good board presence. Grip can help and Engineered Explosives are both effective answers, however they still leave some things to be desired. The Rock on the other hand has great answers to problems with Precocious Deed as well as cards like Duress/Thoughtseize and Ghastly Demise/Smother/Diabolic Edict to answer threats. However, like many other decks, Rock lacks the draw elements that make Threshold effective in being able to dig for answers. Before I designed this deck, I looked at playing Its the Fear. The deck was good in that it combined some elements like Deed and EE with the Countertop Engine, however I felt that while Intuition was a powerful card, the deck reverted to Top-Deck mode too often and it became problematic when other decks could generate actual card advantage and I was stuck recurring a creature/artifact. In addition to that, the 4 color mana base did give me access to Swords to Plowshare, however I found the mana base too unstable and vulnerable to disputation. So this deck was designed to answer some of those problems and also provide a stable and effective deck.
The deck works similar to Threshold builds in that throughout the earlier turns, it seeks to dig for whatever it needs. Here are some of the card selections and justifications for using what I do.
-Ghastly Demise answers a lot of the creature problems fairly well. I know by a long shot that Swords to Plowshare is just superior to it in every way stay one: mana problems. Splashing White does allow me to play Swords, however I would rather keep a sturdier mana base over sacrificing that to have access to better removal. Its still being tested so we'll see where we end up.
-Deed is more than likely the best card in Legacy right now. Most of converted mana costs for cards in the format tops out around 4. (There are outliers like Tombstalker ect) Resolving Deed and blowing it usually will ensure a victory or at least buy you a few more turns. I like the idea of Deed because it gives you access to the reset button that Threshold always lacked. I'll grant EE is awesome, but Deed is simply uhmazing.
-Predict is there to generate real card advantage. I'm not sold on this being used in the final build. Its two mana for two cards (in most cases) and its fairly effective. However, I'm thinking about taking a note from UGb Threshold and replacing it with Dark Confidant. DC is better in a lot of ways assuming he doesn't get burned or Swords away. He also functions as a win condition. However he doesn't give you that immediate trade off that Predict can and you loose life each time you draw with him unless you picking up lands.
-Daze is a must for me. I would say that this slot is one of the more debate slots for me as well, however I see a lot of crazy stuff in my area like Ichorid, 2 Land Belcher, Goblins (crazy huh?) so having a first turn counter to back up FoW is almost necessary for me. Later in games, it usually sits atop my deck as the 2cc card for Counterbalance and if necessary is draw to pitch to Force of Will.
-Nimble Mongoose was an easy pick for me. I can't describe the feeling of watching someone cringe at the sight of a 1/1 that can't be targeted and the cringe turning into oh *#^@ when it becomes a 3/3. His inclusion comes from 3 different feelings. First is that while playing Rock I learned that it good to be able to drop a few creatures in succession and be able to keep the pressure up. Second, Threshold decks that ran 8-12 creatures seemed to be able to do this well enough with all of the Cantrips and digging. Finally, when playing Its the Fear, I didn't like relying on only Tarmagoyf and Shackles to win me games. Don't get me wrong, Tarmagoyf is awesome, but he's not Morphling. So adding in some backup at the cost of only G for an effective creature seemed like a good idea.
-CounterTop is too good not to play. It generates so much card advantage by being able to counter effectively that its stupid not to play it if you can work it into your deck. I was worried for a while that this deck would end up being just a UGb Threshold deck, but I opted to run Deed and Countertop which I didn't see a lot (or any) of that Threshold decks doing. So being able to work with this engine gives me a lot of versatility and Stamina that other decks just don't have.
-Ponder is included because of my love of using it in Threshold. There very may well be a better way to utilize this slot, but I'll leave that up for discussion. Its extremely powerful and can be used to shuffle away a poor top three, or set you up for a Predict. In addition to that, its a Sorcery which kind of leaves something to be desired until you drop Tarmagoyf and realize you're getting an addition +1/+1 because you have a Sorcery in the yard. It digs, it shuffles, it cantrips and feeds the goyf.
Sideboard
The sideboard for this deck is where I am coming up short. I can say with certainty a couple of things about my meta with stuff I'll expect to see. Red will usually show up in some form. Whether its burn or Rbg Goblins, I can expect to see some form of Red being played at each event. Combo is also huge right now with 2 Land Belcher and Ichorid being play often. Meathooks tends to show up every now and again as does Deadguy Ale. I'm still playing around with it and its no where solid by any means, but here's what I have thus far:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Life from the Loam
I'm somewhat at a lose as to where to go from here. Engineered Plague would help against the Goblins match and to a less extent the Sliver match up, however I think as with both decks I would rather see Engineered Explosives. Pithing Needle and or Stifle help against the Belcher match up fairly well. Chill is also another alternative to BeB to deal with Goblins and Burn (assuming Goblins doesn't get a Vial online).
Results
So I took the deck out for a spin this evening and ended up winning. I also have some match up analysis to add as well, but the report will have to do for now.
Round 1: Ichorid
G1 starts off with me keeping a hand with Deed, Daze and Goyf. I'm able to resolve a Mongoose and Gofy and blow the Deed at one to take care of the Bridges, and tokens. However he dredges three times during the next turn and gets something sick like 3 Ichorids and proceeds to beat the living hell out of me. Goyf couldn't help and I didn't have enough mana to resolve a second Deed.
G2 sees me board in Leyline, EE and Needle. I open with Leyline and say go. He casts Cabal Therapy naming FoW and I reveal that I have none in hand. However he sees that I have two Daze in hand. I draw for turn and Topdeck Brainstorm. He attempts to remove the Leyline, I Daze and he can't pay. He ends up scoping.
G3 I mulligan a hand that looked something like this: Trop Island, Fetch, Goyf, Goyf, Goyf, Brainstrom, Ponder. I'm not sure if I should of kept and tried to race, but it all works out in the end. I go to six and don't see anything except Top and Daze (Oh wait, those cards suck against Ichorid) so I go to Five and see: Leyline, Leyline, Ponder, Fetch, Goyf. I keep... He attempts to remove one of the Leylines on turn three but I'm able to answer with a Daze and at that point, he scoops.
1-0 (2-1)
Round 2: Affinity
G1: He's able to get a Plating equipped and uses it along with Shrapnel Blast to make fairly quick work of me. I really didn't see anything worth while and the game was over after 2 Frogs on turn one and an enforcer on turn two followed by Plating.... you get the rest I'm sure
G2: I keep a hand that has Top, Deed, FoW, Goyf and 2 Land plus a Fetch. He hasn't seen me play Deed yet so I hold it until he over commits dropping his entire hand. I play Deed and pass the turn. I top deck a land the following turn and lay it putting me with a Top and Deed on the board and him with nearly all artifacts on the board. I blow Deed for 2 wiping everything out except and drop a Goyf and on the following turn set up the Countertop engine and proceed to win.
G3: Similar enough to G2 to not warrant a write up.
2-0 (4-2)
Round 3: 2 Land Belcher
This took out Goblins and Rock which makes me happy so I was pretty happy to play it.
G1: I win the roll and after a few turns of land laying, he is able to Storm out 10 tokens with EtW on turn 2. I drop a Deed on turn three which cases him headaches. He never really has a chance to recover since I'm able to counter his attempts at a Burning Wish and Tutor. The games ends with Goyf and Mongoose beating him.
G2: I keep a hand that has Daze, FoW, Blue Card, Brainstorm, Island and EE plus other. I top deck into a FoW which makes me even happier. He attempts to resolve Belcher twice, but I'm able to counter it. I get two Goyfs out and put him on a quick clock. He sided in Pacts of Negation and it becomes a problem when his Third Belcher resolves thanks to Pact. However I have a Stifle in hand and Stifle the activation giving me the turn I need to win.
3-0 (6-2)
The event was single round elimination so unfortunately I didn't the chance to play the rest of the decks in the event. But the info was fairly helpful. I think a great deal of luck was involved with Ichorid. Game one isn't an Auto-loss, but its pretty close to it. Post board, digging to be able to play Leyline is key. Is just that simple. Unless I want to add Crypts or Jailers its a must in order to win the matchup. Affinity was very quick and fairly strong. I'll post the Goblins match up later, but Deed is the best answer the deck has. Being able to time it and use it as a reset button was great. I was able to clear the board with Deed, follow up with Goyf and then drop Countertop and lock the game up from there. That actually was the way I would have envisioned the deck playing so it was nice to see it go off in a place besides testing. Belcher hadn't really concerned me. I had always had a good game against it with Threshold and this deck has better answers post board as well as Deed which works great against tokens, Diamonds, Mox, Tinderwall.
I'll post the rest of the match ups tomorrow: Goblins, Threshold, Dragonstompy, Landstill. I was also able to go back and get in a couple of more games with the aforementioned decks in the report so I should have a much more in-depth analysis tomorrow.