[Discussion] Is Angel Stompy no longer viable?

[Clark Kant]

The deck fell off the map and is no longer discussed. Is it because it's no longer viable.

And if so, is there any way to make the deck viable.

The way I see it...

Angel Stompy has access to the same manabase and equipment and similar cretaures to Fairie Stompy and Dragon Stompy. It could opt to run the same manabase atleast ignoring creatures with a WW in the cc.

The difference comes to disruption and IMO is the main point the deck would need to address.

Fairie Stompy offers both Chalice of the Void, Trinket Mage to fetch it (or Pithing Needle) and FoW

Dragon Stompy offers both Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon.

Angel Stompy's old build only had Chalice of the Void. But there are fantastic disruptive cards that the deck could theroetically run. Something like Trinisphere or Suppression Field or Ghostly Prison or many of the other disruptive cards printed in recent years.

There is one disruptive card that I think has fantastic usability in Angel Stompy.

Faith Fetters. Don't laugh. Not only does it shut down creatures completely, it shuts down all sorts of problem artifacts, Charbelcher, Jitte, Scepter, any equipment before it is equipped. It even shuts down fetchlands. It fits the mana curve like butter. And to top it all of. It provides life gain to compensate for lifeloss from Ancient Tomb and early attacks during early turns when you were busy playing disruption to lock down your opponent like Chalice of the Void etc.

Other cards that have potential are cards like Enlightened Tutor, that may be worth running despite the dyssnergy with Chalice, since you will mostly be using them to find Chalice anyways.

[Illissius]

If you Fetters a fetchland, they'll just fetch in response. I'd only consider it after the first four copies of Oblivion Ring, I think.

And the deck you are looking for might be Gargangagnagel Stompy, whose name I can't spell and which runs Moat. (Other interesting options to base a white Stompy deck around are Humilty, Armageddon, Cataclysm, and Parallax Wave. Old style Angel Stompy ran some of these.)

[Clark Kant]

:laugh: How the hell did I leave out Oblivion Ring. I run 2-4 copies in every single white deck I play. And it couldn't fit the curve any better

Cataclysm seems like such an insanely strong in white stompy. I remember how broken it used to have my opponent play one one me.

SO he gets to keep his Ancient Tomb (to accompany the plains in his hand), Jitte and Exalted Angel (and now Oblivion Ring) and all I got to keep was a mountain and a random goblin. It never seemed like a fair trade. :laugh:

P.S: How exactly would Oblivion Ring interact with Cataclysm. If I were to sac Oblivion Ring to Cataclysm, and thus a creature I removed with O. Ring returns to play. Will he then have to sac down to one creature, or will he get to keep two.


Thanks for the info. I typed in Gargangel Stompy and some random german site provided me with the following list....

// Lands
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [10E] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [10E] Windborn Muse
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LG] Moat
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Mobilization
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Pithing Needle

Looks pretty damn strong. Guess the germans know what they're doing.

[Brehn]

He'll get to keep two since Oblivion Ring's ability is triggered.

[Zork]

Unless you O Ringed YOUR OWN THING!

[Clark Kant]

Ooh that could be a smart play if say you had both an Exalted Angel and a Windborn Muse you wanted to keep in play for example.

I really like that german list I posted.

The only change I would be making to it is...

-4 Moat
+4 Magus of the Moat

I know that Magus is more vulnerable as it dies to StP (so do most of your key cards) but it still makes sense to me for the following reasons.

Magus's Pros
Doesn't cost 1 more mana under Glowrider
Can be a decent threat when equipped with SoFI or even a Jitte with a single counter on it, if your other creatures get killed off.
Wouldn't require that I spend 6 months finding and trading for 4 copies.

Is that worth the vulnerability to creature removal and burn? What do you think? For me it is atleast (esp that last reason).

[Roman Candle]

Can chump block any 2 powered flyers they have in play
Can be a decent threat when equipped with SoFI or even a Jitte with a single counter on it, if your other creatures get killed off.

Except that it doesn't have flying.

[Clark Kant]

I realized that and edited it out the first part, I thought before anyone had a chance to read it. :mad:

You're right though. Both pros are useless. So I guess I'll just be playing it for the sake of Glowrider, and because I dont feel like finding and trading for 4 Moats.

Anyways, what changes would you guys make to the German list?

Are there any kickass cards the germans left off?

Cataclysm/Armageddon seem like they could be really strong here, especially if you up the deck to play 4 Flagstones of Trokair (if you draw two, just play both and you will get 2 plains out of the deal). But I have no clue how I would go about making room for either or if it's even worthwhile to do so. The Moat is one option I guess. Though with prevalence of Goyf, Dreadnought and other nonflying threats and the rarity of the mirror matchup, Moat seems solid.

-----------------------------

Honestly, as much as you guys will get confused by me saying this. I'm honestly not 100% sure if Exalted Angel is just good enough for the deck...

It costs 7 mana and eats up two turns, which is painful. It has absolutely no protection from removal what so ever. The preponderance of Goyf has caused people to replaced removal used ot kill Golbins (Bolts etc) for removal that can kill high toughness creatures. And as a 4/5 it dies to Tombstalker which imo is seeing more and more play as more people realize how good he is. It also has double WW in it's casting cost which is a huge problem witht he manabase. And lifegain doesn't seem as irrelevent now that goblins affinity and other uber fast aggro have left the meta and you play cards like Moat and Windborn Muse anyways.

[Phantom]

Looks pretty damn strong. Guess the germans know what they're doing.


They sure do!

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8506

[jbmulder]

I was trying to get this to work but I just recently dropped the equipment, going on a gut feeling. I haven't tested it out yet but I'm going to try:

// Lands
4 Flagstones of Trokair
12 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 Savannah Lions
4 Mother of Runes
4 Glowrider
4 Serra Avenger
4 Exalted Angel
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus

// Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Rule of Law
4 Chrome Mox
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard ????
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Tormod's Crypt
Silver Knight?
Absolute Law?
Orim's Chant?
Armageddon?

I'm terrified of combo.

[Skeggi]

Looking solid. For moar disruption you could add trinisphere. Oh, and what would work well with armageddon, flagstones, trinisphere, chalice and prisons are crucibles! And Smokestack!

Hey.......

Make this evolve a bit more and you'll be right in the Armageddon Stax thread :P

There is no reason to run Angel Stompy over Angel Stax. There is no reason to run Angel Stax over Armageddon Stax. It's simply much stronger and very solid. And it has one of the best pro's ever, I'll just paint a picture with the following scenario:

You, turn 1: "Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond, ditch my plains, Trinisphere, go."
Opponent: "Trinisphere? Amagad! Armageddon Stax?"
You: Nod.
Opponent: "Scoop"

See? Not only Ichorid and Belcher have turn 0 kills :cool:

So basically: Angel Stompy sounds like alot of fun, but compared to the other decks, this one leans more towards casual if you ask me.

[kicks_422]

I guess you could drop the beatdown approach and splash colors to use creatures which double as disruption as well (e.g. Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, True Believer, etc.) Unless you run red for burn, going a straight beatdown approach isn't as great as it used to be.

BTW, did Angel Stompy really run Chalices? The deck I recall had Mother of Runes, Isamarus, Savannah Lions, etc. and used Ancient Tomb/Chrome Mox mana to pwoer out Jitte equips and unmorphed Angel beats.

[Skeggi]

I guess you could drop the beatdown approach and splash colors to use creatures which double as disruption as well (e.g. Dark Confidant)

Dark Confidant + No way to rearrange the top cards of your library != tech.
Dark Confidant + anything with a cc higher than 3 != tech.

Meddling Mage isn't that silly though. But paying UW in a deck with ancient tombs and city of traitors can be pretty hard.

The other 2 require WW, which isn't optimal with the ancient tombs and cities of traitors, again. But it's less worse; however, they significantly suck harder.

[purlqg]

I actually ran Angel Stompy for more then a year, winning 5+ Tournaments with over 20+ players everytime. I won the swiss at the Danish Legacy nationals. At the time (2006) Angel Stompy was the dtb in Denmark for several reasons.

It had the upper hand versus Goblins (the other dtb) because of Jitte, Silver Knight, Exalted Angel, and Serendib Efreet. Mother of runes gave protection for the colors it needed and the deck had instant remowal (stp). Ater board I brought in Tivardars Crusade or some anti red enchantment thing. The deck had a good chance against Landstill (ppl only played the U/w version) and it had a chance against combo because of Meddling Mage main and Rule of Law/True Believer/Glowrider after sideboard.

That meta does not exist anymore and therefore this deck is not an option. Angel Stompy is only viable in a meta dominated with sligh/burn and goblins.
White chalice aggro is strictly inferior compared to Dragon Stompy, Faery Stompy and Demon Stompy.

[TheLion]

This list (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18571) made 7th out of 46.

[Clark Kant]

They sure do!

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8506

Phantom. I can't believe you invented a time machine and used that to rip off german tech. :eek:

For shame.

(Fantastic build by the deck. Every card in the deck seems broken in half).

Seeing as how you seem to be the ideal person to ask.

1.) Just how much more would the deck suck if I played Magus of the Moat instead of the Moat

2.) Is there any possible way you can see where the deck could go..
-2 Plains
+2 Flagstones
-4 Something
+4 Armageddon/Cataclysm

I really think that would make the deck even stronger. It synergies great with big dudes, Glowrider, Windborn Muse, Chrome Mox, 2 mana lands, and Flagstones and possibly Trinisphere.

But you clearly understand the deck far better than I do. So what are your thoughts on the suggestion.

What would you cut if I wanted to incorporate it.

And lastly...

3.) I'm honestly not 100% sure if Exalted Angel is just good enough for the deck...

It costs 7 mana and eats up two turns, which is painful. It has absolutely no protection from removal what so ever. The preponderance of Goyf has caused people to replaced removal used ot kill Golbins (Bolts etc) for removal that can kill high toughness creatures. And as a 4/5 it dies to Tombstalker which imo is seeing more and more play as more people realize how good he is. It also has double WW in it's casting cost which is a huge problem witht he manabase. And lifegain doesn't seem as irrelevent now that goblins affinity and other uber fast aggro have left the meta and you play cards like Moat and Windborn Muse anyways.

[Skeggi]

3.) I'm honestly not 100% sure if Exalted Angel is just good enough for the deck...


What are you thinking of? Angelless Angel Stompy? That'd be a bit weird. Even Armageddon Stax can't run propperly without Exalted Angels.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

3.) I'm honestly not 100% sure if Exalted Angel is just good enough for the deck...Exalted Angel it the best thing white has to offer in terms of attacking creatures, especially in Chalice aggro decks. It's big, has evasion, and races amazingly. Deed has a hard time hitting it and Explosives can only get it while morphed. What ever you run it it's place would only be vulnerable to more removal then Angel.

[Clark Kant]

puggi, traditional angel stompy IS inferior now. Pro red guys are no where near as good in the current meta. And with the great flyers in the past two years, it just makes sense to dump nonflyers entirely and run a Moat effect with beefy or disruptive flyers. Flagstones and Armageddon go well with white.


Looking solid. For moar disruption you could add trinisphere. Oh, and what would work well with armageddon, flagstones, trinisphere, chalice and prisons are crucibles! And Smokestack!

Hey.......

Make this evolve a bit more and you'll be right in the Armageddon Stax thread :P

There is no reason to run Angel Stompy over Angel Stax. There is no reason to run Angel Stax over Armageddon Stax. It's simply much stronger and very solid. And it has one of the best pro's ever, I'll just paint a picture with the following scenario:

You, turn 1: "Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond, ditch my plains, Trinisphere, go."
Opponent: "Trinisphere? Amagad! Armageddon Stax?"
You: Nod.
Opponent: "Scoop"

See? Not only Ichorid and Belcher have turn 0 kills :cool:

So basically: Angel Stompy sounds like alot of fun, but compared to the other decks, this one leans more towards casual if you ask me.

Look it's possible for an aggro deck to be generally superior to another aggro deck. For example, a deck playing 4 grizzly bear would be generally inferior to an identical deck playing 4 tarmogoyf instead.

But, it's not possible for a deck of one archeatype to be strictly superior ot a deck of another archeatype.

Armageddon Stax from my understanding looks something like this...

4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Smokestack
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstones of Trokair
6 Plains

The only creature it plays is Magus. So it is not an aggro deck in any shape or form. It's a strictly control/prison deck. It's entire purpose is to lock down your opponent completelytill they scoop or you beat them 10 times with a 2/2 or 2/6.

Gargangel Stompy is an aggro deck with prison elements. It runs a boatload of creatures and equipment to beat face. Even if it were to incorporate the strongest cards in Armageddon Stompy (4 Armageddon and 4 Flagstones) which I think it should do, it wouldn't become a prison deck. It's purpose is to disrupt your opponent so you can beat face for a few turns and win, akin to Dragon Stompy and Fairie Stompy. It doesn't aim to lock your opponent down completely out of the game akin to Prison or Pox decks.

How can you argue that a prison deck with only 4 creatures makes an aggro deck obsolote?

[kicks_422]

Dark Confidant + No way to rearrange the top cards of your library != tech.
Dark Confidant + anything with a cc higher than 3 != tech.

I don't think so, especially if the deck is an aggro deck.


Meddling Mage isn't that silly though. But paying UW in a deck with ancient tombs and city of traitors can be pretty hard.

Did Angel Stompy play City of Traitors? I don't think so. The fast mana that the deck utilized was Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox. I've seen Wub Angel Stompy before, and IIRC, it made T8 in a big tourney. That was way before though.


The other 2 require WW, which isn't optimal with the ancient tombs and cities of traitors, again. But it's less worse; however, they significantly suck harder.

How does True Believer and Samurai of the Pale Curtain suck? At least tehy're more useful than Savannah Lions.

Does everyone here know what Angel Stompy remotely looks like? Because I'm getting impressions that just because there's Stompy in the name, most of you are thinking Tomb+Traitors+Chalice+beatdown.

[purlqg]

Did Angel Stompy play City of Traitors? I don't think so. The fast mana that the deck utilized was Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox. I've seen Wub Angel Stompy before, and IIRC, it made T8 in a big tourney. That was way before though.

I don't believe the deck ever did. It would have sucked to much because you wanted to play more lands after that one. I always played a configuration of 3x Ancient Tomb and 2x Chrome Mox that seemed to fit.

I didn't play the deck after flagstones was added.
Today I was definetly do something with Cataclysm its the card that makes the deck remotely playable, its a house vs. so many decks.

[Skeggi]

The only creature it plays is Magus. So it is not an aggro deck in any shape or form. It's a strictly control/prison deck. It's entire purpose is to lock down your opponent completelytill they scoop or you beat them 10 times with a 2/2 or 2/6.

Actually most Armageddon Stax also run Angels, and some even run Windborn Muse; but yeah it's a control prison deck. The reason I bring this up is, in the Armageddon Stax thread a guy once popped up with the Staxless Stax concept, basically keeping the softlocks and stomping with Exalted Angels. It sounded alot like you guys were heading in this direction.


I don't think so, especially if the deck is an aggro deck.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one :)


How does True Believer and Samurai of the Pale Curtain suck? At least tehy're more useful than Savannah Lions.

Yes and no. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here too :)

[The Wes]

Skeggi beat me to the point about most decks running more than just magus. I used to run the staxless stax with more creatures in the 4 of place, but the stax just seemed to help more.

I think what Skeggi was trying to say was that Armageddon Stax seems to have better matchups than Angelstompy againsts most meta. I think thats they only way you can compare two rather different decks.

The problem I have against true believer is that most combo decks that he really hurts have ways of dealing with him. I only have experience with pale curtain as it pertains to stax, where it hurts you as much as it does them.

Oh, I also don't think many armageddon stax lists are running ee's or crystal veins anymore.

[Skeggi]

I think what Skeggi was trying to say was that Armageddon Stax seems to have better matchups than Angelstompy againsts most meta. I think thats they only way you can compare two rather different decks.

That is correct. If you look at your Angel list and start playtesting it, the way they were heading was going to evolve into GeddonStax; which you will then find a more stable platform in the meta.


Oh, I also don't think many armageddon stax lists are running ee's or crystal veins anymore.

No they don't, he copy+pasted Machinus' original list. Which is a solid, but outdated list.

[Clark Kant]

Just because we call a deck, Angel Stompy doesn't mean we are stuck using a 2-3 year old list meant to answer a goblin and solidarity dominated metagame that no longer exists.

I think Phantom's build is far superior in the current meta, and I think it's everybit as viable as Armageddon Stax...

// Lands
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
9 [10E] Plains (4)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [10E] Windborn Muse
4 [LE] Glowrider
4 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
4 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LG] Moat
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Mobilization
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [RAV] Pithing Needle


The only changes I would make to the list are as follows...
+2 Flagstones of Trokair
-2 Plains
+4 Cataclysm/Armageddon
-4 Random Cards

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Four Decrees seems like too much. It's great in the late game, but too many can clog your hand.

[Clark Kant]

Well I was looking for 4 cards to cut to make room for 4 Cataclysm/Armageddon anyways.

Cutting 2 Decree seems fine. Any suggestions on what other two cards to cut?

I'm curious to hear which card you think is superior, Armageddon or Cataclysm.

Cataclysm seems better, but it's cc is also much harder to attain than Armageddon's. And theres situations (you have a lot of great creatures out) where Cataclysm sucks where Armageddon is almost always a strong play.

--------------------

I guess what I am asking is, why exactly are you guys so sure that Armageddon Stax is superior to Phantom's list.

Every card Phantom runs seems very strong too and the deck is rather aggressive.

Feel free to post a more recent Armageddon Stax list if you feel the one I posted is outdated

[Skeggi]

Cataclysm seems better, but it's cc is also much harder to attain than Armageddon's. And theres situations (you have a lot of great creatures out) where Cataclysm sucks where Armageddon is almost always a strong play.


Since you're running no WoG and no Crucible, I suggest you go for the Cataclysm.

The Armageddon Stax list I'm currently using is (from the top of my head):

2 Exalted Angel
2 Windborn Muse
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Ghostly Prison

4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
6 Plains
1 Kor Haven
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Karmic Justice
3 Aura of Silence
3 Defense Grid
3 Suppression Field

That should be 60 + 15 cards. If it's not I forgot something ;)

[Jak]

Since you're running no WoG and no Crucible, I suggest you go for the Cataclysm.

The Armageddon Stax list I'm currently using is (from the top of my head):

2 Exalted Angel
2 Windborn Muse
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack

1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Ghostly Prison

4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
6 Plains
1 Kor Haven
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

SB:

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Karmic Justice
3 Aura of Silence
3 Defense Grid
3 Suppression Field

That should be 60 + 15 cards. If it's not I forgot something ;)

Stop talking about Armageddon Stax in this thread. Just because they have similar mana bases doesn't mean they have to be the same deck.

[Skeggi]

Stop talking about Armageddon Stax in this thread. Just because they have similar mana bases doesn't mean they have to be the same deck.


Feel free to post a more recent Armageddon Stax list if you feel the one I posted is outdated

He asked me to: no they're not the same deck, but they use the same colour and are on the same curve. There are probably cards which are usable in both decks.

[Clark Kant]

I'm fine with talking about Armageddon Stax in this thread as well.

But I really would like someone to explain why Armageddon Stax is superior to Phantom's list since so many Armageddon Stax players seem to claim that it is.

Did the people making the claim try out Phantom's list as well. Or are they just going based on their experience with the now outdated 2006 Angel Stompy lists (the ones that played stuff like Savannah Lion).

[Skeggi]

But I really would like someone to explain why Armageddon Stax is superior to Phantom's list since so many Armageddon Stax players seem to claim that it is.

Nah, that's just me :cool: The Wes merely explained what I mean. I am claiming Armageddon Stax is better, but it's all just theory; but I guess you can base it on tournament results too. I'd love to see Angel Stompy work though, that's why I gave you my deck list, for 'inspiration' :)

[kicks_422]

I think you should refer to GargAngel Stompy instead. That's what you're talking about anyway.

[Phantom]

They're probably shouldn't be ANY discussion in this thread, as both decks have an actual thread, but I guess philosophical discussion is ok. As the creator and main tester of Gargangel Stompy (which really should be called Moat Stompy) even I would admit that Geddon Stax is a better deck in an open meta. However, I wouldn't say it's an objectively better deck. Moat Stompy has some different tools which can be displayed here:

Moat. Clearly Stax has some Moat like tools (Ghostly Prison and Magus) that combo brutally with geddon, but nothing with the pure one card madness that is Moat. Literally the reason to run the deck.
Creature disruption. While I'm sure both decks have good tools against Storm Combo, I've actually found the decks more prepared for artifact disruption (thanks to the rise of DS and Stax) and less prepared for creatures (thanks to the decline of Meddling Mage?). Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, and Windborn Muse make for an interesting matchup.
Quicker clock and equipment.


If I had to guess, I would say that Stax has a better control and aggro control matchups while Moat Stompy has a slight advantage in aggro and combo, but don't quote me on that.

@ replacing Moat with Magus of the Moat: Nope. Moat's biggest strength is against aggro decks with little or no enchantment removal. You can bet they have creature removal.

@ replacing Exaulted Angel: No! It is far and away the best creature in the deck. If I could run 16 of them I would. Sure, it sucks when I pay 7 mana and the Swords it (we do play Chalice) but it is the only must remove or we win creature, and is sort of a Moat in itself, as the lifegain usually negates an attacker or two. In fact, the decks biggest weakness is not having enough big flyers (I wish I could make Swans work in there better) to the point where I'm considering Hunted Lammasu.

[fourleafedmonkey]

Okay, so I have been playtesting a card that has been total; tech recently and it has worked surprisingly well.

The card is shining shoal.

It has acted as removal, burn etc. and it can even be hard casted.