[REPORT] Mono-Black Discard takes 4th @ The Inquisitive 08/01/2008

[Curby]

As before (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10332), but with 26 players and 5 swiss rounds. Without a top-X cut, this still means that you can be second and undefeated.

I wanted to play a discard deck two weeks ago, but opted for the tried and true Meathooks. Tonight I decided to take my slower discard deck out for a run.

Curby's Slower Discard

17 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Ostracize
2 Raven's Crime (just testing.)

4 The Rack
3 Tombstalker
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Reanimate (Ostracize's pal)
3 Augur of Skulls (Jitte's Pal)
2 Nezumi Shortfang (I can't bear to drop him completely)
2 Umezawa's Jitte (replaces Cursed Scroll)

Side:
4 Engineered Plague (lots of tribal still)
4 Leyline of the Void (lots of yard strategies)
4 Pithing Needle (Oh why not)
2 Extirpate (I would have run one more if I had it. I realized that this doesn't work well with Leyline)
1 Reanimate (hell, I don't know, this is what you get when you make the side 2 minutes before the event)

Round 1 vs Janky Affinity

Lots of Chiss Goria stuff and Myrs. I never saw a Ravager, but they might have been in the deck.

Game 1: I led with an awesome Thoughtseize/Ostracize/Therapy pulling 4 cards from his hand. Tombstalker and Rack finish the job.

Game 2: Jitte eats away at his guys as the Rack Bolts him every upkeep. Killing Arcbound Worker with Jitte is awesome when he has no more artifact creatures left.

Sided: -2 Raven's Crime, +2 Extirpate (I was hoping to get rid of Platings. I could have sided in Needles but didn't know what to take out)

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 vs Mono-Green Elves

Oh great, my worst matchup: fast aggro. Turns out to be a bit like REAS (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=112818) but a few win-more cards like Elvish Promenade.

Game 1: I mull down to 5, and he lands a 2nd turn Liege with 3 other elves out. Shit.

Game 2: He mulls down to 4 and I don't let him recover.

Game 3: This was interesting. In spite of a decent hand, he gets a Timberwatch Elf, Immaculate Magistrate, and Imperious Perfect out. It's a race to the finish, but he attacks with his 3/4 Birds of Paradise into my Tombstalker (along with other stuff), leaving himself defenseless for my counterattack. I probably should have lost this.

Sided: -3 Duress, -1 _______, +4 Plagues (Plagues don't do much against elves. With 12 +1/+1 Lords, 4 Plagues slow them down but don't kill them outright. I was hoping to yank his Lords though, so the Plagues could sweep the weenies.)

2-0, 4-1

Round 3 vs RBg Belcher/EtW/Tendrils Combo

A ton of mana acceleration, cantrips, tutors, and kill conditions. Should be a good matchup, yeay!

Game 1: I 'seize a Tendrils, and he Belches me to death (with him at 2 life with an active Rack).

Game 2: I 'seize Land Grant and Needle Belcher, and he Empties the Warrens on my head.

Given the matchup, these were pretty shitty hands that I should have just mulled. I did mull to 6 at least once when it was really bad, but I needed more speed to rip his hand apart. How do you attack a combo player? The initial mana (Land Grant/Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox), the Kill (Belcher/EtW/Tendrils) or the search (Tutors/Wishes)? Discarding the Storm builders (e.g. Manamorphose, Rituals) doesn't seem like it would help much.

Sided: -3 Reanimate, -3 Ostracize, +2 Extirpate, +4 Needle (Should I have done Leyline to get things like Cabal Ritual and Rite of Flame? I don't think it was strong enough to swing a game.)

2-1, 4-3

Round 4 vs GU Opposition

It's a fun deck but he's working with a limited card pool (Elves instead of Birds, Counterspell instead of Force of Will). Keeping him away from 2UU mana is all I need to win.

Game 1: I make him discard stuff (including Opposition) and then Tombstalker takes it home while he waits for another Opposition that never comes.

Game 2: He's got 2 Land, 2 Squirrels and an Elf out. I've got three swamps. I show him two Plagues and he scoops.

Sided: -3 Reanimate, -2 Raven's Crime, -1 Duress, +4 Plague, +2 Extirpate (I knew I wanted 4 Plagues, and wanted to Extirpate Opposition to effectively win, but dunno if taking out Duress was smart).

3-1, 6-3

Round 5 vs WR Astral Slide/Lightning Rift

This guy likes to scoop once the game turns even slightly unfavorable. This is exactly what a control deck likes to see (otherwise, we might go to time).

Game 1: He mulls to 5, I mull to 4, keeping Thoughtseize, Augur, and 2 Swamps. When I first see his initial hand I think it's Rabid Wombat. He gets an Exalted Angel out while my first 4 draws are Swamps. Thanks a lot, deck.

Game 2: He mulls to 6 and keeps a hand with 4 land and two Lightning Helix. First Therapy whiffs but I Flash it back to nab the Helixes, ensuring my Shortfang's survival. I'm at 18 and he's at 17 when he scoops.

Game 3: It's usually suicide keeping a 1-land hand (especially without Ritual), but I see two Racks and two Thoughtseizes and decide to risk it. He manages to get another 2/2 for 3 colorless, but I nabbed his Eternal Dragon to prevent him from making it 4/5. Two Racks hit followed by Tombstalker, and he scoops again at 18 life.

Sided: -2 Raven's Crime, +2 Extirpate (His dragons recur, but I figured our games wouldn't last long enough for that to be a problem)

4-1, 8-4

Top 5 from Swiss

1st: Aggro Loam (4-0-1)
2nd: jazzykat playing Voroshstill (4-0-1)
3nd: Combo deck from Round 3 (4-1)
4th: me (4-1)
5th: My girlfriend playing Burn (https://www.curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm) (3-1-1) (She tied with the 2nd place Countertop/Standstill deck. Pretty good for burn)

Having an undefeated 2nd place finish is kind of weird, so hopefully they'll do a top-4 cut in the future. They try to keep it casual and make sure everyone can play though, so <shrug>.

Lessons learned

I Therapied and Duressed a few empty hands to build "thresh" for Tombstalker.

When playing discard, you want to keep things from hitting the board at all, so oftentimes you don't go for the most powerful cards, but the cards that can be cast first. If you're able to keep them from playing the game for the first few turns, you can buy yourself time to set up a game changing play like Jitte, Tombstalker, or bigger discard along the lines of Augur, Hymn, or multi-hit Therapy).

I'm mulling quite aggressively. I don't usually keep 1-land hands, but it's a bit tough with 17 land. Reminds me a bit of Meathooks in that respect, actually. 'hooks has more search and shuffle options though.

Again, I usually know what to side in, but not what to side out. Suggestions on how I should have sided would be great.

Tombstalker is fucking nuts. It did a lot more than Hypnotic Specter.

I love Nezumi Shortfang. He's got a huge target on his head, but I like seeing him. Sometimes you hit a clump of land or other crap, and you need constant discard-pressure. Raven's Crime and Shortfang are meant to provide that.

Augur is kind of mixed. A few times, I drew my card and forgot to sac him, but he carries Jitte like a champ and can tie up the ground game and provide later-game discard (occasionally even with Reanimate). One of my more experienced opponents thought it odd that I was using him. Any thoughts?

Raven's Crime doesn't seem very good, but it didn't have much of a chance. I kept siding it out because I was least comfortable with it, but as a result I never really got a chance to test it.

I realize these reports aren't that exciting. I'm not playing in the most developed meta, I'm not using the best decks, and I'm not playing that well either. But hopefully they're kind of interesting, and in return you can offer advice on how to approach matchups in general and sideboarding in particular.

Thanks

to Galroth for suggestions on the discard archetype
to friendly opponents
to a large Legacy meta here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1798&page=11#post251264). I hope it stays busy.
to you for reading :cool:

[jazzykat]

As before (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10332), but with 26 players and 5 swiss rounds. Without a top-X cut, this still means that you can be second and undefeated.


Yeah,,, funny how that happens :)

A few comments/factual corrections:

1. The deck I was playing (while not card for card because EE was in board, and since I have been playing ITF so much lately I wanted a little more resiliency to being randomly screwed over so I put an extra CB, a LftL, one more island in it) was Vorosh Still. While I appreciate you putting my name next to decks I play, I assure you I am a shameless netdecker and deserve no credit :B

2. I specifically asked for a 5th. round so at least if someone won out there would be a definitive first place. I can't abide by there being a tie-breaker to determine first if you win every single match. You are correct though in that they keep everyone involved to the end, which I fully endorse.

As to suggestions on how to play, I don't usually play dedicated discard decks so I don't have any specific play suggestions.

Generally speaking (and you probably already know this) I have never heard of such a dedicated discard strategy ever placing very high in a large tournament. (Notable exception from memory, Red Death)

The biggest problem is that you had very little you could do against a topdecked anything, and while you do have hymns and therapies which can create CA you are going 1 for 1 a lot for things only in their hand.

It would work pretty well vs. old dedicated counter strategies but now with the counter top engine they play cards on the field and can counter most of your 1 and 2 cc stuff.

If I were to play a disruptive deck I would look at BW Pikula or BWg Pikula (green for Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip (in the board)).

[Galroth]

Curby's Slower Discard... heh. It's a good name ;)

Again, congrats on placing with Discard. Always makes me happy to see that.

Where to start: Deck Critique - You mulled alot of games, and that's probably the first clue that something needs to be fixed. My guess, and I think you hint at this, often times it seems to be a lack of land. My build is a little less mana intensive because it's lighter on the 2cc slot where Jitte and Rack Rat's cost some additional mana to ramp up. I think you're assessment of 17 lands being too little is probably right. I'd bump it to 18. A third Rack Rat is also to my likings... which means you'd have to cut Raven's Crime. I know the card likely deserves more testing, but I think it's pretty easily the weakest slot still. An additional Rack Rats gives you more late game staying power (like Raven's Crime), and is also a threat. I'm so damn picky, a 2 card change and I think that'll make such a big difference :)

What I want to know: How was Jitte playing out for you? Your build does have a better late game, and I'm wondering if that will eventually prove itself more effective. I want to know more about Augur of Skulls? More details! Y'know that I think that if you run Jitte he's an include. Possibly Bitterblossom would be a another good include for Jitte carriers - it's an additional threat to throw in the mix of your 2cc dudes. I used to love how budget the deck was, then Thoughtseize was made and became an obvious auto-include essentially doubling the price of the deck... Bitterblossom practically triples it :(

Yeah, mulling with Discard is really bad. I'd say mock-up the deck on MWS or Apprentice and goldfish a hundred hands or so 'til you've tweaked to the point where you're barely ever mulling. You want that card advantage and you really want to force your opponents into keeping bad hands because they know that if they mull, it's that much easier to deplete their hands.

Sideboard: I'd probably find a way to fit in a couple of infests. Weenie-aggro is by far the worst match-ups you'll come across (I lie... I've faced a reanimator deck or two which were absolute nightmares... (here let me accelerate you into your win condition.)) A couple of infests with engineered plague might shore this up some more. Of course that's alot of 3cc cards to side in. How useful was Pithing Needle? Was it really needed? I know you slapped the sideboard together pretty quickly, what do you think you'd run in retrospect?

On to game play: You questioned what you should take from the opponents hand when facing fast combo. The answer varies depending on each hand of course, but generally you take whatever is lacking most. This tends to be the win condition, or the ability to search for a win condition. Basically you try to buy yourself a turn, then buy yourself another turn. If you get 3 turns in discard should, at that point, just overwhelm the opponent's hand to the point of scoop. The initial mana is rarely ever the right choice because it's the most common and pretty easily drawn into. Storm building can actually be good. A ritual is often what allows the opponent to play their win condition or search. If you remove that it buys you that extra turn to grab something else next turn. It looks like the particular combo deck you were playing against had an inordinate amount of win conditions packed into it. My bet is the fast mana is generally the best thing to grab turn 1, followed by search and win conditions turn 2 and later. If you ever see a Lion's Eye Diamond... that's almost always your best turn 1 snatch.

Time to get some lunch.