The Best Creatures Ever. (besides goyf)

[alcaeus]

The cardpool available to eternal players is enormous, probably pretty close to 10.000 unique cards (depending on how you define unique).

With 5000 creatures to choose from, which are the best ever? Which 50 creatures are the first to consider when building a tournament-worthy legacy or vintage deck? Particularly, which creatures should be classified as "best of the game" as opposed to "very good" (like StP vs. Smother and Nimble Mongoose vs. Skyshroud Elite).

To be clear, this thread is not about tarmo, lackey, goose & confidant, but about which 30-50 creatures can also be considered tier-1 Creatures.

After some research, this is what I came up with:

Broken
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Painter's Servant (so the forests in my library are blue?:eek:)
Tarmogoyf :cool:
Worldgorger Dragon

Best of the Game
Beats
Arcbound Ravager
Burning-Tree Shaman (rather underplayed in my view)
Chameleon Colossus (?)
Countryside Crusher
Doran, the Siege Tower
Deranged Hermit (?)
Eternal Dragon (?)
Exalted Angel
Goblin Piledriver
Grim Lavamancer (?)
Jotun Grunt
Loxodon Hierarch (?)
Morphling (?)
Mystic Enforcer
Nantuko Shade
Nimble Mongoose
Psychatog
Quirion Dryad
Sea Drake (?)
Serra Avenger
Terravore (?)
Tombstalker
Wild-Leaf Liege (? still has to prove itself)

Cheats
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Bogardan Hellkite (?)
Darksteel Colossus
Phyrexian Dreadnought

Haters
Gaddock Teeg
Magus of the Moon
Meddling Mage
Vexing Shusher (?)
Xantid Swarm (?)

Skills
Argothian Enchantress
Birds of Paradise
Dark Confidant
Eladamri, Lord of Leaves (?)
Eternal Witness
Goblin Lackey
Goblin Ringleader (?)
Goblin Warchief
Goblin Welder
Golgari Grave-Troll
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker (?)
Narcomoeba (?)
Priest of Titania
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary (?)
Squee, Goblin Nabob (?)

The ones marked with a ?, are the ones I feel might as well be labeled "very good" instead of "best of the game".

I would like to hear your input on which creatures should be included in the top 50, and why. Be civil and explain why you think a particular creature should be on the list, or why a creature listed here can not (no longer) be considered a Tier-1 Creature. (I'll insert my own reasoning later, and If I have time a nice list of potential candidates)

*EDIT*
Keep up the posts with regards the classification of creatures. Should creatures be sorted by color, by traditional decktypes or by general vs deck specific critters (see posts below)?
Regarding the first, I'm afraid it will lead to an overrepresentation of blue, which sucks hugely. With regards to the latter, being a deck-specific creature should be regarded as a weakness. So they better be pretty damn good to hit this list. The question is whether these creatures make their respective decks tournament-worthy (enchantress), are they the best at what they do (grave-troll vs other dredgers), are they integral parts of what makes the deck viable (welder), is there adequate support to abuse the card (goblin ringleader), in short, can the deck perform without them? As long as these questions are positively answered, you're probably looking at one of the best creatures in magic...

*EDIT2*
To keep this thread on-topic, do mention whether a creature should be included in the top 50 when discussing the brokenness of them and whether they should be (un)banned etc. It's fine if you think painter's servant is nowhere near broken, you're probably right, but do you also think that the servant should be excluded from the top 50?

[r0ckstAr]

Broken
Painter's Servant (so the forests in my library are blue?)
Worldgorger Dragon

How can you say these are broken ?
I agree about tarmogoyf and goblin recruiter, and never saw hermit druid played anyhow.

However, there's still no real competitive use for painter's servant (besides some randoms), and worldgorger dragon is not broken anymore : if unbanned today in legacy, I believe it will have no effect, as the combo is broken very easily, and is not this easy to execute.

[ImaBorgerman]

Perhaps it might be easier if you split the creatures into their respective colours...

Some of the creatures you mentioned above such as Painters servant is more combo oriented... thus perhaps you could clarify if the Best Creatures which you mean is stand alone 'pure goodness', or...? For example Dragon Tyrant, Nicol Bolas seems not reanimatable but by shallow grave or sneak attack, those are a house... (sorry if this example is not good enough X_X) guess it's overall still too diverse and argumentative which creature is the best though :( (people could argue Rakdos Pit Dragon is no good without Hellbent, no?)

Some red creatures which came into my mind as stand alone pure goodness are Arc Sloggers and Rorix Bladewing...

For black, my all time favourite old school creature(still beating to this day) is hypnotic specter...

Bah... thats all I could think of now :)

[alcaeus]

Broken
Painter's Servant (so the forests in my library are blue?)
Worldgorger Dragon

How can you say these are broken ?
I agree about tarmogoyf and goblin recruiter, and never saw hermit druid played anyhow.

However, there's still no real competitive use for painter's servant (besides some randoms), and worldgorger dragon is not broken anymore : if unbanned today in legacy, I believe it will have no effect, as the combo is broken very easily, and is not this easy to execute.

My reasoning was: if the dragon and hermit are considered broken (officially), then painter's servant (and perhaps lackey + welder) should be too.
I agree with you that there is a good case to make against the brokenness of Worldgorger Dragon, Hermit Druid and Painter's Servant, although they do enable plays that don't seem very fair (like many legal plays these days:tongue: ).

To be on-topic: I do believe that these three creatures should be included in the top 50. Together with Goblin Welder, they are amongst the best (creature) combo-pieces the game has to offer, whether their abilities cross into the land of brokenness or not:wink:

[Eldariel]

Painter's Servant does nothing alone. Hermit Druid is capable of tapping to win the game. Servant always needs other cards, Hermit Druid is the combo. WGD is actually closer to Painter's Servant, but I haven't tried to build Dragon for Legacy so I can't rightly say how good it would be. The lack of Bazaar and Entomb would certainly hurt, but how much...I have no idea.

Anyways, Servant belongs nowhere near that list. It enables one deck and Servant itself is basically just enabler that makes the deck not-suck. It's one half a two-piece combo, but two-piece comboes are abundant anyways.

[alcaeus]

I agree that the list is somewhat unstructured, which is mainly due to the variety that magic has to offer. But sorting by color is no good. There's the gold problem. But also some colors simply don't have 5-10 creatures to include in the "best of game" list.
Off course I'm talking about blue in this regard. As anything beyond Morphling, Narcomoeba and Sea Drake, in my view, is easily outclassed by creatures of different colors. Please prove me wrong.

So I would go for a general measure of "goodness" indeed. Wether you base it on the power level of the card, the plays it enables or its impact on the metagame. So, the best, general purpose, flexible & undercosted beaters should definitely be listed.
Yet the narrower a creature's application, the better the effect needs to be to be included in the List. Good examples of narrow cards with great effects are Argothian enchantres, the listed Goblins and combo enablers such as Painter's Servant. While these cards can only be played in a rather limited number of decks, it is precisely these cards that make these decks viable.
To me, Squee & titania's priest are good example of borderline cases with regards to narrowness vs. powerlevel. Squee because it's effects is not great enough, Titania's priest because the priest is not enough to keep Elves viable, although the wizards seem to be trying to get elves back in shape.

This reasoning also goes for color. Some creatures are only good in a particular color (ex WW-critters), which narrows their applicability. So you have to ask yourself is Silver/White Knight good enough to built a monowhite deck for? instead of asking if the card is good in monowhite. There is a subtle difference.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I believe it will have no effect, as the combo is broken very easily, and is not this easy to execute.

That's half true; it's easily hated, but it's also an easy combo to set up. The only hate that prevents a topdecked Dance of the Dead from winning is anti-Yard hate.

Without Bazaar, though, you are probably correct. It could be unbanned.

But then, so could Hermit Druid.

[Bryant Cook]

Great...another one of these threads.


I'm not seeing Simian Spirit Guide.

[BreathWeapon]

Elvish Spirit Guide and Tinder Wall for that matter,

Trinket Mage needs some respect, he's gotten mileage in Standard, Extended, Legacy and Vintage, that's a lot of distance for a creature.

[alcaeus]

Great...another one of these threads.

Lol. I know. But it's not like the previous ones were so great, although the Question 20 in Adepts Q&A thread is pretty awesome. It lists top 5's on every card-type.
I'm just hoping that I'm close to the mark with the beginning list I provided. It would be nice for once to have a clear overview of the best creatures in magic, that's what I'm trying to achieve here. It doesn't have to be about which card is second after Tarmogoyf, or exactly 50 cards, just as long as the best is represented in one single list.

[Rood]

If i had to put the best creatures into color prospective, pertaining to Banned list of course.

Green- Goyf
Blue- Trinket Mage/Toggy-Tog
Red- Goblin Welder
White- Meddling Mage
Black- Dark Confidant
Artifact- Dreadnought

[xsockmonkeyx]

Tombstalker. (But personally, I feel it is actually superior to Goyf.)

[Ghostfire45]

Lets break this down into 4 categories to represent the 4 most prevelant arch-types: Combo, Control, Aggro, and Midrange

I'll start with aggro and split it by color

White

Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Burreton Forge Tender
Kataki, Wars Wage
Ronom Unicorn/ Kami of Ancient Law
Jotun Grunt

Blue

Sea Drake
Serrib Efreet

Black

Dark Confidant
Tombstalker
Phyrexian Negator
Nantuko Shade
Hypnotic Specter

Red

Mogg Fanatic
Keldon Marauders
Grim Lavamancer
Blistering Firecat
Countryside Crusher
Kird Ape
Scorched Rusulka

Green

Tarmogoyf
River Boa
Quiron Dryad

Multi-Color

Gaddock Tegg
Watch Wolf
Scrab-Clan Maulers

Hybrid

Figure of Destiny
Vexing Shusher
Giant Solifuge

Artifact

Arcbound Ravager

Tell me if i missed anything and feel free to post the lists for the other three Arch-types.

[Clark Kant]

You missed a lot of creatures actually. I dont think anyone person can compile such a list. It would many people offering up suggestions...


Tombstalker. (But personally, I feel it is actually superior to Goyf.)

You're by no means the only one. :wink:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=238709#post238709



The best way to do this is to split it into 2-3 categories.

Deck Specific Best Creatures

and

Generalized Best Creatures

and possibly

Between the Two

(for stuff like Trinket Mage, Dark Confidant, Tombstalker, Phyrexian Negator that don't require much to be playable in a deck, but do have a few requirements to be decent).




Every one of the creatures that Ichorid plays are broken enough that they should be on the list. But doing so would give newbies the impression that those creatures are worth playing in any deck, rather than a deck built around them.

So Deck Specific Best Creatures would includes creatures like Ichorid creatures, Painter's Servant, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Trinket Mage, Goblin Lackey, Priest of Titania etc.

The Generalized Best Creatures would include cards like Hypnotic Specter, Nantuko Shade, Ashenmoor Gouger Doran, Tarmogoyf etc etc.

[dahcmai]

It's kind of hard to call any creature one of the best since a lot of them are only good in certain decks that support their synergy with the rest. Most goblins of course have to be paired up with the others to make them any good.

If you're talking about on their own, Morphling stands up top since he's a one man army, but of course he's lost a lot of favor since there's no deck to place him in anymore really.

I've played Hermit Druid in decks that were made before people knew of a one shot combo win. He's not all that hot in those.

It's all a matter of what shell they are in.

[Cait_Sith]

I still have yet to see Metalworker. Piles of mana are suddenly bad now?

[Aleksandr]

ταρμογουφ

[Adan]

The best creatures ever printed are:

Tarmogoyf & Nimble Mongoose. Period.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Gigapede
Grave-Shell Scarab
Krosan Tusker
Helldozer
Bartel Runeaxe

[xsockmonkeyx]

ταρμογουφ

He said besides goyf.

[C.P.]

The thread needs more Nantuko Shade and Crystalline Sliver.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Goblin Ringleader

[technogeek5000]

Eladamri when it was good
Dreadnought
Confidant
Magus of the moon
Goblin Lackey, piledriver, recruiter
Painter's servant
Crusher
Tombstalker

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Gwendlyn Di Corci
Halfdane
Kaysa
Captain Sisay
Hunted Troll
Giant Badger


[/productive thread full of well-thought out and articulately reasoned posts]

[Illissius]

Dakkon Blackblade
Mist Dragon
Palinchron
Ghost Ship
Force of Nature
Tarmogoyf

edit: ok, ok.

Tarmogoyf
Doran
Tombstalker
Dark Confidant
Countryside Crusher
Terravore
Mogg Fanatic
rest of Goblins.dec when in Goblins.dec
Magus of the Moon
Phyrexian Dreadnought

I don't know if there's anything else in the same league as these. I'm not counting things you're rarely if ever going to attack with.

Runners Up
Arcbound Ravager
Nantuko Shade
Eternal Witness

[Ghostfire45]

You missed a lot of creatures actually..

That is just a list of the best AGGRO critters ever. I did miss one under white and that is Spectral Lynx, Mire Boa under green, and meddling mage under multi-color

Here is my list done in the same fashion for best MIDRANGE critters ever

White

Exaulted Angel
Eternal Dragon

Blue

Sower of Temptation

Black

Shriekmaw

Red

Countryside Crusher

Green

Camealeon Collosus
Ravenous Balloth
Birds of Paridise
Eternal Witness
Sakura-tribe Elder
Tarmogoyf

Multi-Color

Loxodon Hierarch

Hybrid

Oversoul of Dusk
Kitchen Finks

Artifact

?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Golgari Grave Troll

[Jaiminho]

Squire.

[The Rack]

River Boa
Spectral Lynx
Gaddock Teeg
Dark COnfidant
Kitchen FInks, gotta love the hybrids
Nantuko Monastery is best Land Creature obviously

[Clark Kant]

In the post Tarmogoyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker legacy, cards like Savannah Lion, Mire/River Boa, Spectral Lynx etc are simply just not good enough to make the top tier creature list anymore.

They're simply too slow or too weak.

It's the same reason that I don't think Rotting Giant is quite good enough any more either, though he still has some potential as does Ashenmoor Gouger (due to the synergy with Dark Ritual).



Black

Dark Confidant


This was what I was referring to when I said, you missed a lot of creatures.

In a list of best aggro creatures you left off such bombs as...

Tombstalker
Phyrexian Negator
Nantuko Shade
Hypnotic Specter (he's just as much as aggro card as Dark Confidant).

[Brehn]

Imperial Recruiter
Street Wraith
Tarpan
Krosan Tusker
Gamekeeper
Bogardan Hellkite
Krosan Tusker
Squee, Goblin Nabob
Narcomoeba
Karn, Silver Golem
Krosan Tusker
Jagged Poppet
Simian Spirit Guide

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Seriously, though, Gigapede. That thing's ridiculously under-rated.

[Team-Hero]

I agree with InfBearAssas about the Gigapede.

What about Morphling? He is by far one of the most powerful creatures ever printed. He is THE blue beater. Doesn't die easily (only to Wrath and stuff, which should be countered anyways). With enough mana, he blocks Goyf, survives, and attacks back. He pitches to FOW early in the game. To me, Morphling has a bigger "oh Sh!t" factor than any other creature mentioned.

[Ghostfire45]

In the post Tarmogoyf/Dreadnought/Tombstalker legacy, cards like Savannah Lion, Mire/River Boa, Spectral Lynx etc are simply just not good enough to make the top tier creature list anymore.

They're simply too slow or too weak.


I agree with u on the savannah lion but the others have intirely different purposes. They are not ment to be really quick (just kinda quick) rather they are ment to evade and more than their share of damage.

River Boa vs. Any Thresh build is bad news for the Thresh player because they will always have an island for the Boa to walk it out on. Plus they have no way to kill it, except for swords, and smother and honestly this is also good for the boa's controler cause they just wasted a swords. The smother is a fare trade.

All 3 can also regen, witchmakes them good vs. burn and spot removal decks. They just don't go away.

The other two are ok but not in the same league as RIVER BOA

[Hanni]

River Boa vs. Any Thresh build is bad news for the Thresh player because they will always have an island for the Boa to walk it out on.

Unless you are talking about a Boa with Jitte or some other form of equipment/buff, the Thresh player isn't going to care about a River Boa. That 2 damage isn't racing Goose or Goyf. Spectral Lynx is much better against Thresh, if only because they can chump block large Goyfs. 2/1's for 2 mana just do not compare to 5/6's for 2 mana these days in the aggro department... so unless the creature is filling a different role (like Dark Confidant does), it's typically going to be a bad investment.


Seriously, though, Gigapede. That thing's ridiculously under-rated.

I agree with InfBearAssas about the Gigapede.

Yea, I definitely think Gigapede is up there with Tombstalker, Dreadnought, and Tarmogoyf. It might be a little bit more mana expensive but at 6/1 it almost always trades with opposing Goyfs and is impossible to get rid of without graveyard hate.

[Roman Candle]

I don't think Mother of Runes has been mentioned yet. Also, I'm a big fan of Sakura-Tribe Elder. It trades with a Lackey on the play, removes Bridges, and accelerates your mana. People say that turn 3 is when most Legacy games are decided... Sakura lets you fast-forward to turn 4. Also, it chumps Goyf, which can mean 5-6 extra life. That's pretty hot.

[raharu]

I don't think Mother of Runes has been mentioned yet. Also, I'm a big fan of Sakura-Tribe Elder. It trades with a Lackey on the play, removes Bridges, and accelerates your mana. People say that turn 3 is when most Legacy games are decided... Sakura lets you fast-forward to turn 4. Also, it chumps Goyf, which can mean 5-6 extra life. That's pretty hot.
Mother of Runes ftw. It's a wall, it's a enabler, it's reach, and it's like a CB on legs (as far as protecting creatures, at least. Unfortunately it's not a lock :\). Also, why no BoP and Grim Lavamancer?

[Ghostfire45]

The thresh deck is very vunrable to an aggro deck in the early game, just as all decks are. A goyf sligh deck can get them ito the red zone turn 2 or three. The problem then occurs: they drop counter balance with top on the field.

O no, what am i to do.

River Boa is the answer. An investment in a turn 2 river boa can prove fatal as the game lingers on.

"Oh yea, river boa is a real problem cause i always have an island" words of a thresh player, not mine, but i of coarse agree with.

As for racing it, when do they actually drop goyf, or have thresh hold? Turn four? River boa has done six damage by this time and may have just won u the game, since u then burn them for the win. When they finally drop goyf or whatever they are in the red zone and u chump, burn face and get in there with RIVER BOA!!!

[J.V.]

I'd Say these are the 3 best creatures of each color (not counting goyf)

Blue:
Trinket Mage
Sea Drake
Sower of Tempation

Green:
Eternal Witness
Birds of Paradise
Golgari Grave Troll

Red:
Imperial Recruiter
Countryside Crusher
Magus of the Moon
[Hammerfist Giant]

White:
Eternal Dragon
Exalted Angel
Magus of the Tabernacle

Black:
Dark Confidant
Tombstalker
Phyrexian Negator

Multicolored:
Gaddock Teeg
Doran The Seige Tower
Meddling Mage

Artifact:
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Arcbound Ravager
Painter's Servant

[thefreakaccident]

I'm the best creature in the format, one swing from me and I win he game.



EDIT: I just lost the game for like the fifth time today, I must really suck at life.


EDIT2: Threads like this are pointless btw, as everyone has their own opinions, and it will prolly lead to arguements/flame wars.

EX: OMG UR SOOO stupidz, that creature isn't nearly asd good as this one... WAFFLE#S

EDIT3: Waffle#s is my stand in word for curses...

EDIT4: I guess I will add to the cconversation...


EVERYONE! Knows that mountain, mountain goat, go, is the most broken play in legacy by far, I have had people scoop to me just because of the sheer awesomeness of the card.

[kicks_422]

Uuhh... Anaba Spirit Crafter?

[thefreakaccident]

Anaba Grunt

Nuff said

[undone]

Combo (you know the only creatures that can be banned)
GGT
Stinkweed imp
Street wraith
SSG
ESG
H Druid
World goarger dragon
P Hulk
Painters servant
Tinderwall
Goblin recruiter *unique but really a combo peice*

Beats
Ravager
Goyf
Morphling
Tombstalker
exct exct

utility
Bob
MMage


Other ones on the list bare little mention or they fall under the later 2 catagorys which are just.. Creatures.

[Aleksandr]

He said besides goyf.

But I play four Goyfs, so I often have another one besides the first.. :smile:

[Jaiminho]

EVERYONE! Knows that mountain, mountain goat, go, is the most broken play in legacy by far, I have had people scoop to me just because of the sheer awesomeness of the card.

The best combination of creatures so far is Magus of the Moon + Mountain Goat. That thing leads to serious scoopage.

[thefreakaccident]

I would scoop out of respect for anyone playing mountain goat... it is amazing.



EDIT: Post 1,000!!!!!

[J.V.]

I scoop to foil Bottle Knomes.

[Clark Kant]

These are the 4 best creatures of each color.

Artifact:
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Metalworker
Painter's Servant
Arcbound Ravager

Blue:
Trinket Mage
Sea Drake
Sower of Tempation
Morphling

Green:
Birds of Paradise
Nimble Mongoose (Tarmogoyf would be here if the thread title didn't exclude him)
Hermit Druid
Eternal Witness

Black:
Dark Confidant
Nantuko Shade/Hypnotic Specter/Phyrexian Negator/Shriekmaw
Tombstalker
Worldgorger Dragon

White:
Jotun Grunt
Exalted Angel
Eternal Dragon
Akroma, Angel of Wrath (The preferred Reanimation/Oath/Proteus Staff target for a reason.)

Red:
Goblin Welder/Squee, Goblin Nabob
Goblin Lackey/Goblin Piledriver/Goblin Recruiter/Goblin Ringleader
Magus of the Moon
Countryside Crusher

Multicolored:
Meddling Mage
Psychatog
Doran The Seige Tower
Mystic Enforcer

I win. Thread Over. End of Discussion. Where's my prize?

Edit: Damn, I left off both Mountain Goat AND Anaba Grunt. I give up. This task is impossible. :(

[edgewalker]

Worldgorger Dragon isn't blast it's red, you lose again.

Also Jotun Grunt Kinda sucks, I think mom or some other utility creature would be better.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Clark: WTF @ no Fanatic? Also this:


Jotun Grunt Kinda sucks.

[Clark Kant]

My bad.

I was so used to seeing WGD in black decks with black sleeves that I forgot he's red. :laugh: So instead of redoing the list, I'm just going unofficially declare WGD a black card (it's not like people actually hard cast him), and declare Goyf a blue card while we're at it.

Jotun Grunt was included precisely because he was utility. He answers Ichorid, Threshold and Goyf, and I think is all around a great sideboard card for any nongraveyard based deck splashing white.

MoM might be better in a general board state, but I just don't see where MoM fits or in what deck it sees any play either MD or SB.

Same with Mogg Fantastic. The last time I saw Mogg Fantastic in a deck was before Goyf took over Legacy. You're right though, I should have grouped him with the other goblins. To be fair, the other goblins are just more broken in a goblin deck though.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It somewhat defeats the point of having a top [X] if X isn't always the same number. Having five cards seperated by slashes doesn't magically make them one card.

Also, WTF. Protean Hulk should be around here somewhere.

[Clark Kant]

Yes it does. :tongue: My point with the /'s was for people to pick whichever of those cards they consider the best.

I always felt Flash was the broken card, not Protean Hulk.

Now let's get to the important discussion. For Protean Hulk to be a combo, you need an effecient way to both cheat it into play, and kill it off. It just so happened that Flash was the one card that was capable of both tasks and all for a mere two mana. And even then, you need a bunch of other stuff in the decklist for it to work.

With Flash banned, even the slowass Kiki Jiki + Pestermite combo is a superior strategy to anything Protean Hulk enables imo.

Exactly what color is Anaba Grunt. :confused:

I've never seen that clarified anywhere.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Am I the only one who thinks Jotun Grunt sucks against Ichorid? Just because a card says "remove cards from grave" on it doesnt means its good against Ichorid.

He costs 2 so he gets Therapied all day and starts removing cards in the grave on turn 3, whoopdeedoo.

He is good against Thresh Ill give you that.

[edgewalker]

Am I the only one who thinks Jotun Grunt sucks against Ichorid? Just because a card says "remove cards from grave" on it doesnt means its good against Ichorid.

He costs 2 so he gets Therapied all day and starts removing cards in the grave on turn 3, whoopdeedoo.

He is good against Thresh Ill give you that.

Have my babies please

[Clark Kant]

Fine, "answers Ichorid" was way too strong a phrase to use.

The only thing that Jotun Grunt reliably hurts is Threshold and Goyf (and random stuff like Reanimator, Squee, Goblin Nabob and other nonsense). Fortunately, that seems to be roughly 3/4th of the metagame these days (that's only a slight exatteration). And it does that while offering up a five turn clock.

Jotun Grunt is a solid sideboard choice for most any deck splashing white that's not based around abusing it's own graveyard imo.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Fine, "answers Ichorid" was way too strong a phrase to use.

The only thing that Jotun Grunt answers is Threshold and Goyf

Now you're getting it. See guys? Clark aint so bad.

[Clark Kant]

OH. YES. I. AM.

I've got a Ph.D. in Horribleness.



Edit: If you don't get the reference. You owe it to yourself to watch this right now. And I mean RIGHT THIS SECOND.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/28343/dr-horribles-sing-along-blog

[BreathWeapon]

Shout outs for Gamekeeper and Cephalid Illusionist

[Clark Kant]

I was thinking the exact same thing. Get right out of town. What a crazy randomhappenstance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0eXOXK9GIg

[Shawon]

No one's mentioned Wild Mongrel or Troll Ascetic yet? No Meloku The Clouded Mirror either?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Shout outs for Gamekeeper and Cephalid Illusionist

Nomads En-kor for Cephalid, Life, and permutations thereof.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Yes it does. :tongue: My point with the /'s was for people to pick whichever of those cards they consider the best.

I always felt Flash was the broken card, not Protean Hulk.

Now let's get to the important discussion. For Protean Hulk to be a combo, you need an effecient way to both cheat it into play, and kill it off. It just so happened that Flash was the one card that was capable of both tasks and all for a mere two mana. And even then, you need a bunch of other stuff in the decklist for it to work.

With Flash banned, even the slowass Kiki Jiki + Pestermite combo is a superior strategy to anything Protean Hulk enables imo.

Exactly what color is Anaba Grunt. :confused:

I've never seen that clarified anywhere.


And this makes it different from Worldgorger Dragon because...?

[Clark Kant]

Because WGD is still legal and playable in Vintage.

Not to mention that WGD the creature itself was broken and abusable enough to be banned in Legacy, where as Protean Hulk isn't.

He asked for the best creatures in legacy and vintage. Seeing as how WGD still has a legal viable vintage competitive deck entirely around it, it qualifies.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Because WGD is still legal and playable in Vintage.

Not to mention that WGD the creature itself was broken and abusable enough to be banned in Legacy, where as Protean Hulk isn't.

He asked for the best creatures in legacy and vintage. Seeing as how WGD still has a legal viable vintage competitive deck entirely around it, it qualifies.

Like Hermit Druid and Goblin Recruiter?

The thread says best creatures Ever. Not best in Vintage and Legacy.

[Ghostfire45]

Now its time to continue my trend and name the best CONTROL critters for each color.

White

Eternal Dragon
Exalted Angel

Blue

Teferi, mage of zalfir
Meloku the cloaded mirror
Sower of Temptation
Morphling
Trinket Mage

Black

Dark Confidant

Red

Uhh.. my mind draws a blank here

Green

Goyf
Werebear
Nimble Mongoose

Multi-color

Meddling mage
Shadowmage infiltrator
Dranlu

Hybrid

Oona, Queen of the Fae

Artifact

Painters Servant

[Lego]

White

Um... my mind draws a blank, any help here

Eternal Dragon, Exalted Angel. I suppose Mother of Runes doesn't quite count.

[Kadaj]

Flametongue Kavu saw some play in control decks for a bit, largely in Machinehead and whatnot, but it could deserve mention there.

[Clark Kant]

The thread says best creatures Ever. Not best in Vintage and Legacy.

:rolleyes: Umm, actually...


Which 50 creatures are the first to consider when building a tournament-worthy legacy or vintage deck?

Besides my point is that..

Proteus Hulk made a blip on the radar for about 1/5th as long as WGD, then the true broken part of the combo, Flash got banned from both Vintage and Legacy.

It's pretty clear that WGD is the broken component of any vintage combo it's involved in, where as Flash was the broken component of any vintage viable combo that Proteus Hulk is involved in.

Worldgorger Dragon made and still makes a huge impact. It's still a semiviable deck to consider when playing Vintage. And there's a huge number of cards that WGD combos with to go infinite.


Anyways, imho, this whole thread is a waste of time, no offense. So I'm likely done posting in it.

Except this one last must click link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0eXOXK9GIg

[Captain_Morgan]

Masticore, I road this beast to many a win. Hands down my favorite creature.

[undone]

The 2nd best green creature ever (far better then goyf) golgari grave troll has been unlisted(save my 1 listing), he is only surpassed by hertiage druid, none other. Also probably in the 5 best creatures ever.

[m03]

Mishra's Factory. Best creature ever.

[Jaiminho]

Mishra's Factory. Best creature ever.

You can't reanimate it. It sucks.

[xsockmonkeyx]

The 2nd best green creature ever (far better then goyf) golgari grave troll has been unlisted(save my 1 listing)

It's been mentioned at least twice before. Thanks for playing.

[Pulp_Fiction]

If you look at creatures from a totally unbiased view IE ignore their combos and interactions with other cards and just think how a certain creature effects a game in terms of raw power I think the top 5 best all around creatures would be something like:

Tombstalker (to many applications to list, almost anything black can run him)
Psychatog (Yep he is that good)
Morphling (Superman, agruably the greatest creature ever printed)
Blastoderm (Unstoppable green beats for a small price ... works best with Fires of Yavimaya)
Spiritmonger (Tied with Nether Spirit as my favorite creature of all time and is just a complete fucking monster)

Any of these creatures have a serious impact on the game when they resolve and cause serious problems for you opponent when left unanswered. They are very powerful by themselves and don't need a deck to be built around them to win (like Crusher, Terravore, Painter etc) because they are just that good on their own. And the honorable mention creatures would be weenies like Mogg Fanatic, Isamaru, Mother of Runes, and Wild Mongrel. I also +1 Gigapede and Spectral Lynx.

[Lego]

If you look at creatures from a totally unbiased view IE ignore their combos and interactions with other cards and just think how a certain creature effects a game in terms of raw power

Unfortunately, that's an even more ridiculous discussion than the one we're having now. No card exists without interactions. In a void, Tarmogoyf is a 0/1 for 2. In a vacuum, Hunted Wumpus is a 6/6 for 4. It's mostly purposeless to discuss cards without context.

[Aleksandr]

OK, more on this tarmotopic..

What is the 2nd best aggro :2: drop in R/G combination? And by "aggro" I mean pure aggro, something like Goyfsligh. In short - I am looking for Tarmogoyfs 5-8.

Quirion Dryad - needs heavy investment into red. Bad late-game topdeck.
Werebear - GY dependant, RG builds threshold slowly..
Wild Mongrel - not so strong without fodder. Can we use either LftL or madness spells?
Vinelasher Kudzu - Bad late-game topdeck. Good with fetches and LftL..
Wren´s Run Vanquisher - needs many elves
Talara´s Battalion - I dont like it.
Scab-Clan Mauler - Situational.

[Ghostfire45]

OK, more on this tarmotopic..

What is the 2nd best aggro :2: drop in R/G combination? And by "aggro" I mean pure aggro, something like Goyfsligh. In short - I am looking for Tarmogoyfs 5-8.

Quirion Dryad - needs heavy investment into red. Bad late-game topdeck.
Werebear - GY dependant, RG builds threshold slowly..
Wild Mongrel - not so strong without fodder. Can we use either LftL or madness spells?
Vinelasher Kudzu - Bad late-game topdeck. Good with fetches and LftL..
Wren´s Run Vanquisher - needs many elves
Talara´s Battalion - I dont like it.
Scab-Clan Mauler - Situational.

U missed the best one of all: Keldon Marauders. 5 damage for 2. Nice bargain, great whenever.

U also missed the most bad-ass critter of all time RIVER BOA!!!

Blood Knight and Mire Boa are also good, just really situational.

[Tenant_Tron]

U missed the best one of all: Keldon Marauders. 5 damage for 2. Nice bargain, great whenever.

U also missed the most bad-ass critter of all time RIVER BOA!!!

Blood Knight and Mire Boa are also good, just really situational.

Can you please stop championing River Boa, Spectral Lynx, and Mire Boa everywhere? They are piss poor cards in Legacy, seriously now...

T.T

[Ghostfire45]

Can you please stop championing River Boa, Spectral Lynx, and Mire Boa everywhere? They are piss poor cards in Legacy, seriously now...

O really? And what do u know about legacy? Hmmmmm....

I'll give u the mire boa and spectral lynx, those are pretty good but not good enough.

However, i will defend RIVER BOA till the day i die.

In a world filled with thresh and other annoying things that run islands, who can save us? RIVER BOA!!!

[Tenant_Tron]

O really? And what do u know about legacy? Hmmmmm....

I'll give u the mire boa and spectral lynx, those are pretty good but not good enough.

However, i will defend RIVER BOA till the day i die.

In a world filled with thresh and other annoying things that run islands, who can save us? RIVER BOA!!!

I've only been playing 1.5/Legacy for 6.5 years, what would I know about awful green/white 2 drops that dont actually affect game states in any meaningful way...

T.T

[Pulp_Fiction]

Unfortunately, that's an even more ridiculous discussion than the one we're having now. No card exists without interactions. In a void, Tarmogoyf is a 0/1 for 2. In a vacuum, Hunted Wumpus is a 6/6 for 4. It's mostly purposeless to discuss cards without context.

I knew someone would say that and that is just ignorance. A complete oversimplification of what I am trying to say. My point is creatures like Countryside Crusher and Painter's Servant are great. But decks have to be built around those creatures in order for them to be as good as they are. Something like Morphling is just phenomenal and the same with Spiritmonger. And saying something as stupid as "well technically Goyf would be a 0/1 in an ideal situation" should just be ignored. When Goyf is in play is he not almost always bigger than a 0/1? Please think a little before posting stuff like this. Saying something like Psychatog is one of the best creatures ever could be understood because there are ridiculous numbers of decks that can run him and he will be good in most. If you read further on my post I said look at how the creatures impact the game. Would Goyf affect the game as a 0/1? Not really, so lets just assume that both you and your opponent play a few cards which have the potential to go to the graveyard and also play lands to cast spells.

[Nihil Credo]

Yep, I used a similar criterion for the "5 Best" adept q&a.


I am trying here to judge each card based on its sheer impact versus the amount of effort it takes to make use of it, in terms of resource expenditure (mana cost) but also of deckbuilding restrictions. For example, Leyline of the Void gets a substantial bonus for being free and effectively colourless, EE gets a bonus for being versatile and easy to cast, Force of Will gets a minus for requiring 12+ other blue cards, and stuff like LED, Narcomoeba or Goblin Lackey get knocked straight off the list for needing the entire deck to be built around them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I knew someone would say that and that is just ignorance. A complete oversimplification of what I am trying to say. My point is creatures like Countryside Crusher and Painter's Servant are great. But decks have to be built around those creatures in order for them to be as good as they are. Something like Morphling is just phenomenal and the same with Spiritmonger. And saying something as stupid as "well technically Goyf would be a 0/1 in an ideal situation" should just be ignored. When Goyf is in play is he not almost always bigger than a 0/1? Please think a little before posting stuff like this. Saying something like Psychatog is one of the best creatures ever could be understood because there are ridiculous numbers of decks that can run him and he will be good in most. If you read further on my post I said look at how the creatures impact the game. Would Goyf affect the game as a 0/1? Not really, so lets just assume that both you and your opponent play a few cards which have the potential to go to the graveyard and also play lands to cast spells.


For getting very huffy, I notice you explicitly defend cards that see absolutely no play, while ignoring cards that do. I think your criteria might be kind of useless, given that consideration.

[Lego]

For getting very huffy, I notice you explicitly defend cards that see absolutely no play, while ignoring cards that do. I think your criteria might be kind of useless, given that consideration.

I was going to say something along these lines, but Jack already did, so I'll just +1 him.

[xsockmonkeyx]

OK, more on this tarmotopic..

What is the 2nd best aggro :2: drop in R/G combination? And by "aggro" I mean pure aggro, something like Goyfsligh. In short - I am looking for Tarmogoyfs 5-8.

Quirion Dryad - needs heavy investment into red. Bad late-game topdeck.
Werebear - GY dependant, RG builds threshold slowly..
Wild Mongrel - not so strong without fodder. Can we use either LftL or madness spells?
Vinelasher Kudzu - Bad late-game topdeck. Good with fetches and LftL..
Wren´s Run Vanquisher - needs many elves
Talara´s Battalion - I dont like it.
Scab-Clan Mauler - Situational.


Probably Quirion Dryad given Goyf straight up replaced it in R/G Sligh a little over a year ago.

[Finn]

For getting very huffy, I notice you explicitly defend cards that see absolutely no play, while ignoring cards that do. I think your criteria might be kind of useless, given that consideration.I don't think "see play" should be given the weight that you apparently do. What sees play today is the result of the direction the environment has taken. We are not at the culmination of some process that weeds out the bad leaving only the good. We are at a particular point in a wandering stream that favors certain cards over others. In a couple of years we will be in a different place and still not at the end. And then another and another, etc.

There is no logical reason to view what is popular today to be categorically better than powerful cards that are not. There is a lot more to it than that.

[Lego]

There is no logical reason to view what is popular today to be categorically better than powerful cards that are not. There is a lot more to it than that.

There is, however, a reason to view what is playable as better than what, while powerful, is not (or at least is less so.) By way of example, I can't foresee a time when Spiritmonger will be more playable than Countryside Crusher, so I consider Crusher more powerful.

[Finn]

That is really the entire point. How do you know that Countryside Crusher will always be better?

What if Life from the Loam gets banned for some reason we can't imagine yet?
What if some super mechanic dealing with color changing takes hold?

Forever is a long time to not consider such possibilities. Or are we really just talking about today's environment? Anyway, it is an interesting topic in large part because we all look at these things differently. And for that same reason we probably can't possibly resolve it definitively.

[Lego]

Forever is a long time to not consider such possibilities. Or are we really just talking about today's environment?

"What are the best creatures in the game?"

"Well, if you ban Life from the Loam, then it's definitely not Countryside Crusher. And if they print a mechanic that interacts really well with color changers, then Wild Mongrel and Spiritmonger will be great."

That's not the question, see?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If we start the game with 10,000 life and combo is banned, Blinking Spirit might become good. But we can't base our analysis on theoreticals. Yesterday's history, and tomorrow's a mystery, but today is, as they say, a gift- that's why it's called the present. What creatures are powerful now, in the game as we know it? Certainly Countryside Crusher is seeing more play than Morphling, and with good reason.

[Finn]

Thanks for the enculturation. Your 4th grade teacher would be proud of you, Jack.

Countryside Crusher is a creature with a drawback/bonus. It happens to be in a deck that uses a powerful card as an engine. Countryside Crusher is the beneficiary of that. It is not particularly powerful in and of itself, and in fact, sucks in sealed.

Would you boys say Anger is a particularly powerful card? No? It fits your criterion. How about Simian Spirit Guide? Plated Sliver? Apparently these are more powerful cards than Spiritmonger, Morphling, and Goblin Welder.

The OP never specified that the creatures had to be good right now. That is your own interpretation.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Creatures only exist in environments. Even in Limited. There's no such thing as 'objective' power level. This is the point that people have been trying to explain, but you retain your trademark resilience to logic and reason. The original question is, "What are the best creatures ever?", which should not be taken to mean some vague and abstract ether by which creatures are compared only to themselves, find their inner children, and decide to go become Franciscan monks, but rather, which creatures have had the greatest and longest impact on various formats? Chittering Rats had a few months of gross dominance, and Countryside Crusher has been seeing play across all formats; Spiritmonger, for all it's "objective" strength, has yet to influence any environment beyond casual kitchen table Magic. Morphling had some influence in the day, often exaggerated by misty-eyed veterans, but has long since ceased to be a compelling card in any format.

It's telling that you add Goblin Welder to your list of "good" creatures, since it has every problem you complain about; it needs a deck built around it. Maybe if you mastered these basic issues of internal consistency and reasoned argument, you could make a deck everyone didn't laugh at. Until then, I shall say good day to you, sir.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Spiritmonger was in every Rock deck (popularized by Sol Malka) for nearly 2 years because it is just that damn good and has still remained in Extended showing up on occassion in various decks. It is a 6/6 for 5 mana that has no drawbacks and 2 abilities .... how is this bad in any way? And he can be put in almost any control deck or aggro/Rock-style deck that can support his colors and plays more than 20 lands. Morphling, if you do not acknowledge this as one of the greatest creatures ever printed then you are just ignorant. Since it's printing it has been the most dominant Blue-control finisher ever. Look at the older Trix decks, every single one of them ran Morphling in the SB as an alternate kill card and Trix was easily one the most dominant decks ever in the extended metagame. But I shouldn't have to bring this up if you guys actually played during these older Magic times (more fun and the cards looked better).

Sure Crusher is seeing more play at the moment, Aggro Loam is one of the best decks in the format and wipes the floor with Thresh. But again, If you put Crusher in like any kind of Sligh deck he is gonna suck, but you put in him a deck that plays Loam and cycle lands he is sick nasty good. And don't even talk about limited, Crusher is awful. The deck has to be built around him in order for Crusher to be good, he pretty much sucks by himself. I bet that when someone builds Mono-Blue control they will be running Morphling. Even when his "replacement" came out, Meloku, most people still ran Morphling cause he is just better. And Mono-Blue control currently sucks in this format right now, but maybe Landstill will make a sudden rise and Back to Basics Mono-Blue will become popular all of a sudden, the kill source of course will be Morphling.

Going by Lego and Bear's logic: since Ichorid is seeing a lot of play at the moment, he must be one of the best creatures ever printed cause it is so widely played and win games without ever being casted. This of course is not true, Ichorid is a terrible creature whom the deck has to be built around in order for him to be good. In fact he wasn't even played in any form of competetive deck until Bridge from Below was printed. Or Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Piledriver, Lackey all terrible cards by themselves but in one certain deck they are phenomenal, and in everything else they just suck.

[Finn]

Jack, you still can't manage to have a conversation with me without bringing up your satire can you? If only I had pleasured your ego by getting upset. It figures that you would mistake yourself and your cadre of yesmen for everyone. That is only true in your world. You just happen to have a megaphone.

Most of what you had to say was your typical condescending drivel, but this:

It's telling that you add Goblin Welder to your list of "good" creatures, since it has every problem you complain about; it needs a deck built around it. Maybe if you mastered these basic issues of internal consistency and reasoned argument, you could make a deck everyone didn't laugh at. Until then, I shall say good day to you, sir....amazes me. You are smarter than this. Yes, it does need a deck built around it. So does every creature I listed. None of those particular decks are as effective as the one Crusher is in. That is the reason for the unpopularity of those creatures. It has nothing to do with the cards' power levels. My entire point is that Crusher is a card in an already powerful deck. That alone does not make it a particularly powerful card any more than Anger, Stinkweed Imp, etc. Duh.

Keep trying to confuse the obvious truth with references to useless crap, dude. It's really working well on me. Really it is.

[Afro]

Fathom Seer...a Gush that beats.

[Lego]

...amazes me. You are smarter than this. Yes, it does need a deck built around it. So does every creature I listed. None of those particular decks are as effective as the one Crusher is in. That is the reason for the unpopularity of those creatures. It has nothing to do with the cards' power levels. My entire point is that Crusher is a card in an already powerful deck. That alone does not make it a particularly powerful card any more than Anger, Stinkweed Imp, etc. Duh.

I was going to continue this discussion, but you've obviously conceded the point already. Thanks for playing.

[Tenant_Tron]

Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp, Narcomoeba, and Ichorid all have to be up there, as cornerstones of a tier 1 deck in Vintage, Legacy, and Extended. Hell Dredge was even a decent Standard deck at one point.

T.T

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Jack, you still can't manage to have a conversation with me without bringing up your satire can you? If only I had pleasured your ego by getting upset. It figures that you would mistake yourself and your cadre of yesmen for everyone. That is only true in your world. You just happen to have a megaphone.

Sound and fury, signifying nothing.


Most of what you had to say was your typical condescending drivel, but this:
...amazes me. You are smarter than this. Yes, it does need a deck built around it. So does every creature I listed. None of those particular decks are as effective as the one Crusher is in. That is the reason for the unpopularity of those creatures. It has nothing to do with the cards' power levels. My entire point is that Crusher is a card in an already powerful deck. That alone does not make it a particularly powerful card any more than Anger, Stinkweed Imp, etc. Duh.

...You think the power level of a card has nothing to do with how powerful decks running it are? Think about that for a minute.


Keep trying to confuse the obvious truth with references to useless crap, dude. It's really working well on me. Really it is.

"You're like a fish thrown up on a beach, Mayhew. A man could lecture you for an hour or more- but at the end of it, you still wouldn't be able to breathe. Your element is ignorance, and I am going to return you to it."

- Neil Gaiman

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

News Flash;

This thread is retarded.

ETL: <2 hours.

[Bardo]

http://endued.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/weeping-jesus.jpg