[Rules Stuff] Split Card, CMC and Counterbalance

[arsenalpow]

Oh, that's awesome then. I was confusing the split cards CMC with life loss from Confidant.

It should be the same...

Confidant
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its [the cards] converted mana cost.

Counterbalance
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card.

If you reveal fire//ice with confidant you lose 4 life because the converted manacost of the card is 4
If you reveal fire//ice with counterbalance you can counter spells that cost 2 even though the converted manacost of the card is 4

How does that possibly make sense?!?!

If counterbalance said "Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed spell" it would make more sense.

The cmc of the spell fire is 2
The cmc of the spell ice is 2
The cmc of the CARD fire//ice is 4!!

god i hate magic

[Brehn]

If you reveal fire//ice with confidant you lose 4 life because the converted manacost of the card is 4

Wrong. It's two and two, so you lose two and two life.

Confidant asks: What is the converted mana cost?
C/P answers: 5
C/P answers: 2
Confidant's ability makes you lose 5 life.
Confidant's ability makes you lose 2 life.
(You actually don't lose 7 life. You lose 5 life and you lose 2 life [simultaneously]. When you're attacked by two 1/1-creatures, you don't receive two damage, but you receive 1 damage and 1 damage [simultaneously])

Counterbalance asks: What is the converted mana cost?
C/P answers: 5
C/P answers: 2
Counterbalance's ability counters the targetted spell if its converted mana cost is 5.
Counterbalance's ability counters the targetted spell if its converted mana cost is 2.

Not too difficult. Split cards give two answers instead of one answer. Sometimes this is a disadvantage (Confidant), sometimes this is an advantage (Counterbalance, imprinting Research//Development on Isochron Scepter).

[Jaiminho]

Wrong. It's two and two, so you lose two and two life.

Confidant asks: What is the converted mana cost?
C/P answers: 5
C/P answers: 2
Confidant's ability makes you lose 5 life.
Confidant's ability makes you lose 2 life.
(You actually don't lose 7 life. You lose 5 life and you lose 2 life [simultaneously]. When you're attacked by two 1/1-creatures, you don't receive two damage, but you receive 1 damage and 1 damage [simultaneously])

Counterbalance asks: What is the converted mana cost?
C/P answers: 5
C/P answers: 2
Counterbalance's ability counters the targetted spell if its converted mana cost is 5.
Counterbalance's ability counters the targetted spell if its converted mana cost is 2.

Not too difficult. Split cards give two answers instead of one answer. Sometimes this is a disadvantage (Confidant), sometimes this is an advantage (Counterbalance, imprinting Research//Development on Isochron Scepter).

This is correct and arsenalpow isn't. A split card counts as a single card, but it has two sets of characteristics, and that's why you get two values for an effect that checks one of those characteristics. It's all about reading the rules.

[arsenalpow]

I'm fully aware how the ruling works, i just think the wording makes it seem ambiguous because of the verbiage used. I don't think the words "card" and "spell" should be used interchangeably like they seem to do in the case with counterbalance.

The card is called Crime/Punishment, the spell you cast is Crime or the spell you cast is Punishment. Thats how I interpreted it when counterbalance was first released. I was shocked that it did not work the same way as dark confidant.

Maybe the logic portion of my brain is busted, but this totally makes sense in my head.

[Illissius]

Things on the stack are spells*. Things in play are permanents*. Things in other places are just "cards".

* and may or may not also be cards; for example, abilities and tokens aren't

[arsenalpow]

Things on the stack are spells*. Things in play are permanents*. Things in other places are just "cards".

* and may or may not also be cards; for example, abilities and tokens aren't

Counterbalance
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card.

IMHO that verbiage is misleading.

"Fire" is a spell on the stack
"Ice" is a spell on the stack
"Fire/Ice" is a card

this is how I interprete all of this in my head, let me walk through it with counterbalance as an example

Opponent plays spell tarmogoyf (CMC 2)
Counterbalance triggers and says to reveal the top card of my library
I reveal the card "fire/ice" (CMC of spell "fire" 2, CMC of spell "ice" 2, CMC of card "fire/ice" 4)

The revealed card "fire/ice" has a CMC of 4, that shouldn't be able to counter a tarmogoyf at a CMC of 2....

Counterbalance
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card.
Dark Confidant
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.

It's the same phrase on each card, it should work the same way...unless for some reason someone thinks that 2=4

[Brehn]

Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card.

IMHO that verbiage is misleading.
No. "Converted Mana Cost" is a quality of a spell as well as a quality of a card.



CMC of card "fire/ice" 4
(...)
The revealed card "fire/ice" has a CMC of 4


There's nothing misleading at all. The card Fire / Ice just doesn't have a CMC of 4, what, for some reason, you want it to have....

(and I think that it would be very misleading if split cards had a converted mana cost of X+Y...)


Counterbalance
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may reveal the top card of your library. If you do, counter that spell if it has the same converted mana cost as the revealed card.
Dark Confidant
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost.

It's the same phrase on each card, it should work the same way...
It works the same way.

[arsenalpow]

No. "Converted Mana Cost" is a quality of a spell as well as a quality of a card.

So the converted mana cost of fire/ice is 2 and 2....how is that not 4?

[Brehn]

Because "and" and "+" are different things.


505.2. In every zone except the stack, split cards have two sets of characteristics and two converted mana costs.

[arsenalpow]

So am I the only person that thinks the comp rules are inconsistent between these 2 cards? (dark confidant, counterbalance)

I fully understand the ruling, i just dont like it.

[Brehn]

505.5. An effect that asks for a particular characteristic of a split card while it's in a zone other than the stack gets two answers (one for each of the split card's two halves).

They are incredibly consistent.

[arsenalpow]

i give up :frown:

[Lego]

So am I the only person that thinks the comp rules are inconsistent between these 2 cards? (dark confidant, counterbalance)

I know you've given up, but I just wanted to input that the comp rules are consistent. Split cards have two characteristics. For Confidant, you lose life equal to the converted mana cost, which with Fire/Ice is 2 and 2, so you lose two life and you lose two life. For Counterbalance, you counter something if it's equal to the converted mana cost, so you can counter something that is CMC 2, and something that is CMC 2.

Confidant asks "What is the converted mana cost?" and says "You lose that much life." It gets the answer "2 and 2" so you lose that much life.

Counterbalance asks "Is the converted mana cost of that spell 2?" and gets the answer "Yes and yes." Even if it got the answer "Yes and No" (Research and development) it only needs a single yes.

I hope that helps to see how they are the same. Both are receiving the same two answers, they're just using them slightly differently.

[arsenalpow]

ya...fail

:frown:

[thefreakaccident]

There is no need to keep confirming his incorrecthood (I wish that was a word)...

Just learn from this guy, what they say makes sense, the ruling isn't Confi racist, and you just learned something really cool...

All in all, a good day in the land of magic.

[The Rack]

Does Teeg stop Fire/Ice then?

[Anusien]

Does Teeg stop Fire/Ice then?
No. Nor does it stop Research (but it will stop Development).