[Discussion] Would you prefer if DCI took a conservative or sensible liberal approach

[Clark Kant]

First of all, I want to make clear, that this ISN'T a thread to discuss what cards you think deserve to be banned or unbanned. Those never prove productive.

I just want you to give a general sense of whether you prefer that the DCI take a conservative approach, a sensible but liberal approach, or a bit of both.

By a conserative approach, wizards would not try to shake up legacy too much. This means making few changes to the banned or restricted lists, few new unerratas, and not printing many cards or abilities in future sets that could significantly impact legacy (examples include storm, dredge, bridge from below etc).

If they took a liberal approach, the dci would unban a bunch of cards that may not be as unfair as they once were and see which of them actually deserve to go back on the list, and which should stay unbanned, they would continue the unerratas, and they would not really consider what kind of impact a new card or ability may have on legacy and perhaps would even print cards with the specific goal of shaking things up in legacy.

Me personally, I greatly value stability. I play legacy because I don't want a bunch of my decks and cards to suddenly become worthless and unplayable. But something about the idea of having a banning list that is as small as possible appeals to me. I think I would prefer the liberal approach to unbannings, but a conservative approach to everything else. I would love to see the dci unban the half dozen or so cards that might not belong on the list and thus let us sort out through our own play which of those cards truly are broken and which can stay unbanned.

I loved the Dreadnought unerrata but Flash singlehandedly made many decks unviable and ruined legacy for a half year. And I hated that Tarmogoyf suddenly made monoblack suicide and white weenie uncompetitive. I am fine with new cards as long as they don't completely invalidate existing cards or startegies. Frankly, I like new mechanics only if they only add new decks and strategies but don't subtract from them the viability of existing ones.

I love the idea of having a format with as small and simple a banned list, and as large a number of viable strategies and decks as possible. And I love that legacy seems to be that format, and is heading even further in that path.

What about you?

[Jak]

Conservative. I play Legacy so I don't have to change decks as often. It's not the only reason, but it is a big one. I want to play with my favorite cards and if they kept shaking up the format, I wouldn't always be able to play with those favortie cards.

I think what Wizards is doing now is great. Legacy gets a few cards each set to play with. It doesn't shake up the format too much and it just gives us better alternatives to other cards in the Legacy card pool.

I wouldn't mind if they unbanned Land Tax or Dream Halls etc because I doubt they would shake up the format. I want stability and be assured that if I buy a new deck I will be able to keep playing it for years. Land Tax would also make Parfait viable :smile: so that's a plus.

[PunkRocker1134]

While I would prefer a sensible liberal approach, which would be more along the lines of unbanning one safe card at a time, and making one safe unerrata at a time, however, I believe that Wizards might not know what is safe to unban(besides those that seem obvious). Wizards have been doing fantastic with their conservative approach, seeing as I've never seen a Legacy metagame thats so healthy and diverse. Stability is key, but I do enjoy a few minor shake ups, which can only come from slow unbannings, slow unerratas and a few cards from each new set being playable.

[Tenant_Tron]

Well once they fix up the banned lists I would say a conservative approach is good, but since there are about 5-8 cards that could definitely be unbanned, Id say a more "liberal" approach is needed now, even though its just being reasonable and sensible.

T.T

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I want a liberal unbanning policy and a conservative banning approach. I want new toys to play with, but not suddenly, "No more Burning Wish, Lion's Eye Diamond, or dual lands!"

[Wallace]

I think Legacy is fine the way it is, the B/R list is there for a reason I and I see no reason to chance it. The format is healthy, just look at the DTB/DTW forum, with the exception of a few staples, it is always changing. There is no deck, right now anyway, that is dominating the format. Combo seems to be on the rise but is kept in check by all of the Stompy, MUC and threshold decks.

This is not to say there are one or two cards I would like to see banned, counterbalance being one of them. So I guess to answer your question I would like wizards to keep doing whatever it is they're doing, the format is in a good place right now and IMHO, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Willoe]

Parfait

What exactly is Parfait?

I have no comments on this discussion, just that I mean exactly the same as Sanguine Voyeur. So, answer me then ignore me :wink:

By the way, this is my 400th post.

[edgewalker]

Parfait was a white control deck, much like wombat or the mighty quinn, but with more lock pieces in the form enchantments and the land tax scroll rack combo.

Oh, and Liberal for unbannings and conservative for bannings

[Jak]

Parfait is what MWC wants to be. Land drops, draw engine, and an awesome Silver Bullet package. Think how awesome Quinn is and then multiply that by 100.

[BreathWeapon]

Conservative banning, liberal unbanning, the format is great, but that doesn't mean we can't stand to remove a few "eye sores" on the banned list.

[Kadaj]

For my own selfish reasons, I want liberal unbannings and conservative unbannings. However, given the nonsense that went on with Vintage when Gush was unbanned... Well, I don't know. I think the lines are more obvious with the Legacy Banned List as far as what's broken and what isn't.

EDIT: Removed shaz about specific cards. Inevitably going to lead to bad things.

[Citrus-God]

For my own selfish reasons, I want liberal unbannings and conservative unbannings. However, given the nonsense that went on with Vintage when Gush was unbanned... Well, I don't know. I think the lines are more obvious with the Legacy Banned List as far as what's broken and what isn't.

EDIT: Removed shaz about specific cards. Inevitably going to lead to bad things.

I'll take the Menendian approach; I don't want Wizards to interfere with Legacy; I only want them printing new cards which impact Legacy by course. This of course, is me referring to the printing of Tarmogoyf...

[Captain_Morgan]

I prefer a liberal reprinting policy in promotional materials, like having foil dual lands, FoW, and ect. Keep access to old cards enough for scrubs to build up a bit of older cards, and collectors chase cards to well, collect. But that's something that can be very interesting as equally very bad.

I prefer having a balanced view point to keeping combo decks down that can fire off in one turn potentially. A format shouldn't be dominated by one card, but that's equally a developement issue as well as banning issue. I like conservative approach to banning, and a conservative approach to unbanning.

Unban the wrong card or two, and it can really spoil the broth.

[Omega]

The format is fine as it is at the moment. No deck is really dominating. The DTB is huge.

As for unbanning, DCI has proven to be wise in the past. I certainly hope they will continue to be conservative. (Most of the cards unbanned lately aren't seeing any play)

For the bans, DCI has proven to be wise in the past (ban flash!). I certainly hope they will continue to be conservative too.

keep it that way, and legacy will stay pleasant for a long time

Robert

[Anusien]

"Sensible liberal approach" is a great way of saying you think they're stupid :P

I don't think you can be liberal with unbannings and conservative with bannings; otherwise mistakes stay off the list. You pretty much have to be conservative/liberal on both. And I think being conservative keeps you from making tragic, tragic mistakes.

[jazzykat]

Well once they fix up the banned lists I would say a conservative approach is good, but since there are about 5-8 cards that could definitely be unbanned, Id say a more "liberal" approach is needed now, even though its just being reasonable and sensible.

T.T

My vote. There are a few cards on there that make me say so....what? I would like to see more decks become viable or old ones become viable again.

[lavafrogg]

And I hated that Tarmogoyf suddenly made monoblack suicide and white weenie uncompetitive. I am fine with new cards as long as they don't completely invalidate existing cards or startegies. Frankly, I like new mechanics only if they only add new decks and strategies but don't subtract from them the viability of existing ones.


It is impossible for new strategies/cards not to invalidate old strategies...everything is either better or worse(unless they are funtional reprints).
Goyf did wreck monoblack and white but those decks were not very good to begin with and now they can play goyf and actually be playable(eva green) I cant really thinl of when mono white weenie was ever good but Angel Stompy was good for a while.

I say shake up the format and give us something to think about/play with... Flash was horrible for the format but it let us relize how our format functions without a clear top deck.
If you were to take a poll of all legacy players and ask them what the top deck was and then looked at tourney results the results would be all over the place. For six months we actually had a top deck to see and plan to play...it was kind of nice.

[FoolofaTook]

I'd like the DCI to maintain an approach to Legacy that mitigates against any deck or archetype becoming dominant while allowing the maximum possible number of playable decks under those constraints.

I'd like them to be very proactive when something earthshaking (unerrata of Flash) threatens to turn the format on it's head suddenly, making a wide number of previously playable decks unplayable. I'd also like them to be proactive over the longterm when something (Tarmogoyf) makes a large segment of the Legacy meta suddenly splash solely (or largely) for it.

[MattH]

I'm fine with the way they're doing things. There's some changes I would like to see happen, but nothing really egregious enough to get worked up about.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Take a liberal approach. Free market systems work best in pretty much every environment. If you want proof of this, look at the success of the Source vs. the utter and complete failure of every other Legacy forum (in English). If there were less of a barrier on the banned and restricted lists, you'd have period bursts of metagame distortion, but it'd make the format much more exciting, and we could rely that a busted deck wouldn't stay utterly dominant for months at a time, because it would be banned. It would be harder on budgets, but still long-run cheaper than Standard or Extended and certainly Block, and it would avoid the stagnant malaise of boredom that always seems to hand pendulously on the horizon. Is Land Tax actually remotely good? Would Hermit Druid have an impact? Would the format be better off without Tarmogoyf? There's only one way to actually find this shit out.

[Sek'Kuar]

I'm not sure how I feel. I agree with IBA that the only way to know is to try, but I don't feel bannings/unbannings are in order. Getting rid of, say, Tarmogoyf is not the answer, but printing cards that are better than him leads to mega power-creep. I guess my problem is that I want new cards, but I want the format to stay the same. And since I can't have my cake and eat it too, I guess the best situation would be to just ban/unban some cards and see what happens. Sorry if this post rambles, is too cyclical, or doesn't make sense, I was just thinking out loud.

[FoolofaTook]

In theory the meta would resolve issues like Tarmogoyf by hating on it sufficiently. The problem is that even the hate that you can put in for Tarmogoyf doesn't stop it from being just an amazing draw whenever you get it.

There are some things that are just too good to be true and a 5/6 creature for G1 anytime after turn 4 or 5 just happens to be one of those things.

For those who argue that lack of evasion makes Tarmogoyf not an insanely good draw all I can respond is that there are a ton of critters with some form of evasion out there and literally none of them are routinely splashed for in Legacy. The whole universe of Legacy critters that people routinely splashed for was at zero until Tarmogoyf came out and now is at one. That argues that the DCI should do something about the one card.

For those who would argue that Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares should be added to the list, the answer is that neither of those cards can be topdecked and kill the opponent. Very strong cards but not cards that win in and of themself.

There is no other card in Legacy at the moment that is splashed for in many decks that is also a win in and of itself.

[Clark Kant]

In theory the meta would resolve issues like Tarmogoyf by hating on it sufficiently. The problem is that even the hate that you can put in for Tarmogoyf doesn't stop it from being just an amazing draw whenever you get it.

There are some things that are just too good to be true and a 5/6 creature for G1 anytime after turn 4 or 5 just happens to be one of those things.

For those who argue that lack of evasion makes Tarmogoyf not an insanely good draw all I can respond is that there are a ton of critters with some form of evasion out there and literally none of them are routinely splashed for in Legacy. The whole universe of Legacy critters that people routinely splashed for was at zero until Tarmogoyf came out and now is at one. That argues that the DCI should do something about the one card.

For those who would argue that Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares should be added to the list, the answer is that neither of those cards can be topdecked and kill the opponent. Very strong cards but not cards that win in and of themself.

There is no other card in Legacy at the moment that is splashed for in many decks that is also a win in and of itself.


Very well said. You make some great points.

[Anusien]

How do you define health of a metagame/success of a banning?

[Tenant_Tron]

How do you define health of a metagame/success of a banning?

When Tarmogoyf is banned and things are the way they ought to be, the way they used to be.

T.T

[Anusien]

I mean, you can't say, "Try out this change and see how it works" without a clear understanding of whether you've moved to a net gain or net loss. So you need an understanding, ahead of time, of how to tell whether a metagame with Land Tax is more healthy than without.

[Tenant_Tron]

I mean, you can't say, "Try out this change and see how it works" without a clear understanding of whether you've moved to a net gain or net loss. So you need an understanding, ahead of time, of how to tell whether a metagame with Land Tax is more healthy than without.

Land Tax will not affect the metagame at all because it is a terrible card and will not see any play. The fact that it ever was on the banned list and still is a testament to WOTC's ignorance and negligence towards our format, no two ways about it.

T.T

[FoolofaTook]

Land Tax will not affect the metagame at all because it is a terrible card and will not see any play. The fact that it ever was on the banned list and still is a testament to WOTC's ignorance and negligence towards our format, no two ways about it.

T.T

Red-White would become a lot stronger with Land Tax. Land Tax, Moon effects, Chalice of the Void and Power Surge could get really ugly really fast. Throw in Ancient Tombs, various Moxes and Simian Spirit Guides as possible acceleration and the meta would change a lot. One drops that turn into card advantage and fix color problems are extremely powerful.

[Nihil Credo]

Ok, I'll bite: anyone who seriously thinks Black Vise should be unbanned has no place discussing the B&R list.

[FoolofaTook]

You can play around Black Vise. Look at the decks that consistently won when Black Vise was legal and *surprise, surprise* the vast majority of them did not have vises. In fact, the vast majority of them were the decks you'd think would be most damaged by vises, e.g. counter-control decks.

This was not true during the period when Balance reigned supreme, however nobody in their right mind would say that Black Vise was the reason that those decks dominated.

The difference between Land Tax and Black Vise is that if the deck is designed to take advantage of Land Tax it is great in the opening hand and it is also a great topdeck later on. Black Vise was great in the opening hand and then if the opponent got out from under it it was not so good later on.

Unlike most of the people who post at the Source I actually played in a meta in which Black Vise was in use for three years and in which you could not mulligan except under extreme circumstances. I rarely looked at a turn 1 vise and thought it was really a problem. Sometimes it was but not to the same extent that turn 1 Land Tax was, not even close.

[Nightmare]

Land tax got much, much better when they printed cards with Retrace.

Tarmogoyf is the fucking Red Herring of Legacy. It's this year's Goblin Lackey. I was sick of hearing about it when it was a 1 mana Red Guy, I'm sick of it as a 2 mana Green guy. If you are consistantly losing to goyf, you would be consistantly losing to Werebear. It's not the specific threat you're losing to, it's the strategic superiority of the deck you're facing, and your inability to sufficiently a) Apply enough pressure to force your opponent to defend, or b) combat his pressure with the appropriate solutions.

[mtg_freak]

Ok, I'll bite: anyone who seriously thinks Black Vise should be unbanned has no place discussing the B&R list.

That is an ignorant statement. If you really think about it then it should be unbanned.

Consider this:

What are non-blue decks supposed to do against the rediculous draw power of Landstill decks? Yes, there are ways to limit the quality of such draws like with Thoughtseize, but they still gain a rediculous advantage!! Especially when they tap out and draw into Force of Will or have one mana open for Brainstorm or even have Counterbalance!!

Besides, if it was so format defining then people would just have to add four Chrome Mox to their decks to avoid the damage. Problem solved!!


Land tax got much, much better when they printed cards with Retrace.

Tarmogoyf is the fucking Red Herring of Legacy. It's this year's Goblin Lackey. I was sick of hearing about it when it was a 1 mana Red Guy, I'm sick of it as a 2 mana Green guy. If you are consistantly losing to goyf, you would be consistantly losing to Werebear. It's not the specific threat you're losing to, it's the strategic superiority of the deck you're facing, and your inability to sufficiently a) Apply enough pressure to force your opponent to defend, or b) combat his pressure with the appropriate solutions.

Which retrace cards are so broken using this strategy? Plus to use this card you have to play white (generally bad on its own if it's not Swords to Plowshares), lots of basic land (bad), and be able to beat combo, Counterbalance, and Dredge all while being able to deal with Tarmogoyf after you missed a land drop!!

Oh, and I think they need to be way more liberal with unbannings. It has been how long since they unbanned anything? The game has changed a lot.

Did Replenish or Mind Over Matter do anything when they came back? Not really. That does not mean they can get away with anything, but really think about some of those cards still banned. Stuff like Dream Halls is too slow and too terrible against discard/counterspells.

If the DCI would only try some of this everyone would see.

[FoolofaTook]

Land tax got much, much better when they printed cards with Retrace.

Tarmogoyf is the fucking Red Herring of Legacy. It's this year's Goblin Lackey. I was sick of hearing about it when it was a 1 mana Red Guy, I'm sick of it as a 2 mana Green guy. If you are consistantly losing to goyf, you would be consistantly losing to Werebear. It's not the specific threat you're losing to, it's the strategic superiority of the deck you're facing, and your inability to sufficiently a) Apply enough pressure to force your opponent to defend, or b) combat his pressure with the appropriate solutions.

Tarmogoyf is still a 5/6 most of the time and no, I would not be losing to Werebear which is a 4/4 because there are a ton of things that standoff a Werebear. Only a Goyf reliably stands off another Goyf.

That's why Jotun Grunt no longer sees play much. That's why Werebear is missing in action. That's why Phyrexian Negator has vanished from the face of the earth. Nantuko Monastery? A relic of times past.

Anybody who is arguing that Goyf has not fundamentally changed the meta is not looking very hard at what is actually happening out there. Green splash is now prevalent in most decks that are 2c or more and are going to use any real creatures at all and plan to actually cast those creatures.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

What are non-blue decks supposed to do against the rediculous draw power of Landstill decks? Yes, there are ways to limit the quality of such draws like with Thoughtseize, but they still gain a rediculous advantage!! Especially when they tap out and draw into either Force of Will or Brainstorm.Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, TES, Survival, and Aggro Loam seem to be doing fine.

[Tenant_Tron]

Land tax got much, much better when they printed cards with Retrace.

Tarmogoyf is the fucking Red Herring of Legacy. It's this year's Goblin Lackey. I was sick of hearing about it when it was a 1 mana Red Guy, I'm sick of it as a 2 mana Green guy. If you are consistantly losing to goyf, you would be consistantly losing to Werebear. It's not the specific threat you're losing to, it's the strategic superiority of the deck you're facing, and your inability to sufficiently a) Apply enough pressure to force your opponent to defend, or b) combat his pressure with the appropriate solutions.

Come one now, no one has or would ever splash for Werebear in Landstill, Suicide Black, and every other Goyf deck out there. It is not the "strategic superiority" of any one deck because many decks play 4 Goyf just because of how unbalanced it is by itself, which Werebear clearly does not claim. I know you actually play Legacy, and know this to be true.

And also, Land Tax still sucks even with the Retrace card, since few of them are very good and the decent ones arnt even white.

T.T

[mtg_freak]

Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, TES, Survival, and Aggro Loam seem to be doing fine.

You just wait until the Legacy Championship. Watch what happens. Although, Ichorid is really good.


Come one now, no one has or would ever splash for Werebear in Landstill, Suicide Black, and every other Goyf deck out there. It is not the "strategic superiority" of any one deck because many decks play 4 Goyf just because of how unbalanced it is by itself, which Werebear clearly does not claim. I know you actually play Legacy, and know this to be true.

And also, Land Tax still sucks even with the Retrace card, since few of them are very good and the decent ones arnt even white.

T.T

Yeah, but I think they shouldn't ban Tarmogoyf as the format has the power to fix itself.

[Jak]

Tarmogoyf is still a 5/6 most of the time and no, I would not be losing to Werebear which is a 4/4 because there are a ton of things that standoff a Werebear. Only a Goyf reliably stands off another Goyf.

That's why Jotun Grunt no longer sees play much. That's why Werebear is missing in action. That's why Phyrexian Negator has vanished from the face of the earth. Nantuko Monastery? A relic of times past.

Anybody who is arguing that Goyf has not fundamentally changed the meta is not looking very hard at what is actually happening out there. Green splash is now prevalent in most decks that are 2c or more and are going to use any real creatures at all and plan to actually cast those creatures.

I wouldn't mind playing with Flametongue Kavu again, but I don't see Goyf getting banned. It changed a lot of things, but change isn't always bad. Our format got a refreshing twist.


You just wait until the Legacy Championship. Watch what happens. Although, Ichorid is really good.

Since when has Landstill been dominating? It is good, but still is no where close to unbeatable.

[FoolofaTook]

Which retrace cards are so broken using this strategy? Plus to use this card you have to play white (generally bad on its own if it's not Swords to Plowshares), lots of basic land (bad), and be able to beat combo, Counterbalance, and Dredge all while being able to deal with Tarmogoyf after you missed a land drop!!

Land Tax doesn't require lots of basic land to work, it requires about the same amount of basic land that any 2c deck tends to have, meaning 7 to 9 or so. You don't need to activate Land Tax every turn for 3 lands to make it valuable you really only need to activate it a couple of times. The concept that Land Tax is going to be used in 3c+ decks with 18 basic lands is a mistaken one and it's one of the main reasons that people don't understand the effect Land Tax would have.

It's going to be used in W, UW and RW decks mainly with a smattering of BW and GW here and there.

To deal with combo U has Stifle and Force of Will, R has fast Moon effects, B has targetted discard and graveyard disruption and there are several good artifact solutions starting obviously with Chalice of the Void. These are the effects that would be in play alongside Land Tax.

[Jak]

Come one now, no one has or would ever splash for Werebear in Landstill, Suicide Black, and every other Goyf deck out there. It is not the "strategic superiority" of any one deck because many decks play 4 Goyf just because of how unbalanced it is by itself, which Werebear clearly does not claim. I know you actually play Legacy, and know this to be true.

And also, Land Tax still sucks even with the Retrace card, since few of them are very good and the decent ones arnt even white.

T.T

FORMATS CHANGE! DECKS CHANGE! When new cards are created they replace cards sometimes. People always complain that Legacy is stagnant or how they want cards unbanned to "shake up the format". Well, Goyf did that. Accept it. He doesn't overpower Legacy. He is an amazing win condition in so many decks. Suicide black was hardly played before people splashed in it. Weak creatures, no artifact or enchantment hate, and no late game made it a weak deck. Recent sets have changed that with the printing of Goyf and Tombstalker and splashing for Grip or Seal. Decks have to dapt and change to stay viable. Sui Black did that. Some versions of Landstill did that. Being able to change roles smoother and faster helps some versions of Landstill. Goyf can take down most of the creatures in the format so they use it as a control tool. Or they can Deed away everything, drop Goyf, and win. UBG Landstill could never win fast before. It only had Factories. No decrees or monasteries. It adapted to become playable.

[mtg_freak]

Land Tax doesn't require lots of basic land to work, it requires about the same amount of basic land that any 2c deck tends to have, meaning 7 to 9 or so. You don't need to activate Land Tax every turn for 3 lands to make it valuable you really only need to activate it a couple of times. The concept that Land Tax is going to be used in 3c+ decks with 18 basic lands is a mistaken one and it's one of the main reasons that people don't understand the effect Land Tax would have.

It's going to be used in W, UW and RW decks mainly with a smattering of BW and GW here and there.

To deal with combo U has Stifle and Force of Will, R has fast Moon effects, B has targetted discard and graveyard disruption and there are several good artifact solutions starting obviously with Chalice of the Void. These are the effects that would be in play alongside Land Tax.

I know how many basics you need, but what I'm saying is what deck runs that many basics?! By dealing with combo you have Stifle and Force of Will? Okay, let's go over some scenarios considering the blue version (because blue is the best color)...

Against Dreadnought decks you'd get smashed relying on stuff like that as they have better card drawing in Standstill plus Daze and Force of Will to back them up. Trying to use Land Tax is tough against early Daze.

How about Goblin Charbelcher? Stifle does not win the game and only buys a little amount of time making Force of Will and maybe some other thing you don't run four of (example Pithing needle) your only out.

Ichorid runs past both of Stifle and Force of Will usually, and let's be honest: Tarmogoyf backed by Daze and Force of Will really is a combo which destroys any Land Tax strategy as you just lost a card (Land Tax) and a land drop. You are way too vulnerable as every other deck you play against does something really strong very quickly. Let us not forget about Counterbalance and Sensei's Diving Top combo as Land Tax won't get you out of that problem either.

Also, did you suggest Chalice of the Void?

[Jak]

I know how many basics you need, but what I'm saying is what deck runs that many basics?! By dealing with combo you have Stifle and Force of Will? Okay, let's go over some scenarios considering the blue version (because blue is the best color)...

Against Dreadnought decks you'd get smashed relying on stuff like that as they have better card drawing in Standstill plus Daze and Force of Will to back them up. Trying to use Land Tax is tough against early Daze.

How about Goblin Charbelcher? Stifle does not win the game and only buys a little amount of time making Force of Will and maybe some other thing you don't run four of (example Pithing needle) your only out.

Ichorid runs past both of Stifle and Force of Will usually, and let's be honest: Tarmogoyf backed by Daze and Force of Will really is a combo which destroys any Land Tax strategy as you just lost a card (Land Tax) and a land drop. You are way too vulnerable as every other deck you play against does something really strong very quickly. Let us not forget about Counterbalance and Sensei's Diving Top combo as Land Tax won't get you out of that problem either.

Also, did you suggest Chalice of the Void?

Think outside the box a little. Land Tax and Scroll rack is an amazing draw engine for white. It is something that white has never had. Now I am not going to say it is broken but I am sure Land Tax can be abused in the right deck. Also, this format has 8 free artifact mana sources that can be used. Land Tax gives a white control deck a strong draw engine. The Mighty Quinn would be ridiculous with it. It is not broken but it would be pretty insane.

[mtg_freak]

Think outside the box a little. Land Tax and Scroll rack is an amazing draw engine for white. It is something that white has never had. Now I am not going to say it is broken but I am sure Land Tax can be abused in the right deck. Also, this format has 8 free artifact mana sources that can be used. Land Tax gives a white control deck a strong draw engine. The Mighty Quinn would be ridiculous with it. It is not broken but it would be pretty insane.

8 free artifact mana sources: I am assuming you mean Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, which do not work together.

Land Tax and Scroll Rack: The only reason to play Land Tax as a four of. Too slow to be format defining and gets easily devastated (example Pernicious Deed).

[Jak]

I doubt Deed will hold the deck back.

4 Enlightened Tutors which can get your draw engine, the other piece of the Painters+Grindstone combo, Scepter to get that lock going. The deck runs 7-8 "counterspells" and kicks Thresholds and any aggro decks butt all day. Having a powerful draw engine would make the deck not lose to itself.

[mtg_freak]

I doubt Deed will hold the deck back.

4 Enlightened Tutors which can get your draw engine, the other piece of the Painters+Grindstone combo, Scepter to get that lock going. The deck runs 7-8 "counterspells" and kicks Thresholds and any aggro decks butt all day. Having a powerful draw engine would make the deck not lose to itself.

Yeah, right. I have play experience for and against it back when it was still legal. Pernicious Deed is amazing against Land Tax decks because you have card selection advatage (your Land Tax/Scroll Rack/Mox Diamond vs. your basic land, which you may or may not have been able to get rid of as you did miss a land drop and they have either counterspells/discard to keep you off of things). Standstill is way better and easier to use, plus it pitches to Force of Will.

I don't even know where to begin with the rest of that, so I won't bother. Basically, it's too easy to stop as good as it may sound.

[Shawon]

I wonder, if Dream Halls were to be unbanned, how it would be in a deck with Painter's Servant. Discarding land to play from FoF to Sundering Titan to Akroma, powerful indeed, but would the interactions be consistent?

[FoolofaTook]

Also, did you suggest Chalice of the Void?

I think W and RW would be a bit more likely to see abusive use of Land Tax than UW, mainly because you want to get the mechanic rolling and be proactive with it. That suggests Stax and Moonish effects more than Counterbalance-ish tempo oriented play.

And yes, I suggested Chalice of the Void. Land Tax drives the counter out of their hand turn 1 (and people would be countering it is my guess after we saw it in action a bit) followed by Chalice turn 2 if that's what the play dictated. Of course Chalice@0 turn 1 would happen also although the grail would be Chalice@2 off of acceleration turn 2.

[mtg_freak]

I wonder, if Dream Halls were to be unbanned, how it would be in a deck with Painter's Servant. Discarding land to play from FoF to Sundering Titan to Akroma, powerful indeed, but would the interactions be consistent?

It would be terrible. If you actually got the thing into play quickly without going hand dead (which you wouldn't get there, but for the sake of things...) you realize that Dream Halls works for your opponent too, right? All their counterspells are Force of Wills!


I think W and RW would be a bit more likely to see abusive use of Land Tax than UW, mainly because you want to get the mechanic rolling and be proactive with it. That suggests Stax and Moonish effects more than Counterbalance-ish tempo oriented play.

And yes, I suggested Chalice of the Void. Land Tax drives the counter out of their hand turn 1 (and people would be countering it is my guess after we saw it in action a bit) followed by Chalice turn 2 if that's what the play dictated. Of course Chalice@0 turn 1 would happen also although the grail would be Chalice@2 off of acceleration turn 2.

You would never want to counter the Land Tax. How does Chalice of the Void beat Tarmogoyf or any other engine? Engineered Explosives will give the deck an awful time. Think about how slow the deck will realistically be.

[FoolofaTook]

You would never want to counter the Land Tax. How does Chalice of the Void beat Tarmogoyf or any other engine? Engineered Explosives will give the deck an awful time. Think about how slow the deck will realistically be.

I think you're just not seeing the effect of adding a 1cc enchantment that gives effective draw to a deck for very little sacrifice. It certainly isn't going to be slower than a deck without Land Tax if for no other reason than it will have a piece of it's main assembly in play turn 1 about 40% of the time, maybe more if the deck proves to be easy mulliganable.

I'm not going to start building the deck now in this thread because Land Tax is not legal for play and it would be a wasted effort until it is. There are a fair number of scenarios though in which a Land Tax deck on the play has the effect rolling before the opponent ever plays a card and also has a full hand again at the start of their second turn. The other things the deck would do when that doesn't happen are also probably fairly perverse and having a deck with 8 or 12 broken openings in it dramatically increases the chances of finding one of them.

Scroll Rack IS slow, but it's not terminally slow and it is a backbreaker when it gets rolling, particularly with reshuffle effects available.

[mtg_freak]

I think you're just not seeing the effect of adding a 1cc enchantment that gives effective draw to a deck for very little sacrifice. It certainly isn't going to be slower than a deck without Land Tax if for no other reason than it will have a piece of it's main assembly in play turn 1 about 40% of the time, maybe more if the deck proves to be easy mulliganable.

I'm not going to start building the deck now in this thread because Land Tax is not legal for play and it would be a wasted effort until it is. There are a fair number of scenarios though in which a Land Tax deck on the play has the effect rolling before the opponent ever plays a card and also has a full hand again at the start of their second turn. The other things the deck would do when that doesn't happen are also probably fairly perverse and having a deck with 8 or 12 broken openings in it dramatically increases the chances of finding one of them.

Scroll Rack IS slow, but it's not terminally slow and it is a backbreaker when it gets rolling, particularly with reshuffle effects available.

I respectfully disagree. I think most games will come down to more relevant cards and card engines. Creatures, removal, and combos are much more relevant to winning the game in such a fast enviornment rather than a grip of basic land.

I wish the DCI would open up so this issue could get put to rest!

[Shawon]

I understand the obvious CA generated from Land Tax, but my question with Land Tax was always this:

How do you situate yourself to have less lands than your opponent to trigger Land Tax, especially in the early game, to make it worth your while?

Here are some scenarios that I can imagine (going first):

Me: Mox Diamond, Land Tax go.
Opp: Draw, Land, go.
Me: Grab 3 lands, Draw, etc.

Me: Land, Land Tax, Go.
Opp: Land, Go.
Me: Draw, Go.

Going second:

Opp: Land, Go.
Me: Draw, Land, Land Tax, Go.
Opp: Draw, Land, Go.
Me: Grab 3 Lands, Draw, etc....

Going first, barring Mox Diamond hands, it seems like the only way to really ensure grabbing 3 lands is to underplay lands and capitalize once your opponent plays a land and/or kills your land. Are there other cards/strategies I'm unaware of that ensure you trigger Land Tax, when going first?

Going second, all I can think of is just playing a land, and capitalize like when going first, except you're not underplaying lands, you have fewer lands since you went second.

Those plans don't sound too ridiculous since you are gaining 3 cards, but is Land Tax broken just for that? For the initial 3 lands you grab in the early game? Sort of like an Ancestral Recall?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

He doesn't overpower Legacy. He is an amazing win condition in so many decks.

These two things might not be as compatible as you think.


Land Tax is, was, and would be terrible. Someone please provide a list of Land Tax that you think would be playable. Not even broken, I'd settle for playable.

Land Tax is terrible because one of two things has to happen for it to trigger;

1) You have to be skipping land drops to make it work. You're then getting, in return... more basic land. That you can't play. Life from the Loam does this trick without the drawback.

2) Contorts your entire deck into a Mox-laden card-disadvantage machine that falls apart without Land Tax and barely functions with it. And then you draw six cards off of Scroll Rack... and... surprise! They're mostly more shitty artifact mana and other cards in your 30-cardslot-draw "engine".

In decks that would even consider using it, Life from the Loam and Sensei's Divining Top are infinitely better, respectively.


I doubt Deed will hold the deck back.

4 Enlightened Tutors which can get your draw engine, the other piece of the Painters+Grindstone combo, Scepter to get that lock going. The deck runs 7-8 "counterspells" and kicks Thresholds and any aggro decks butt all day. Having a powerful draw engine would make the deck not lose to itself.


The Mighty Quinn sans making land drops is not as busted as you think.

[Tenant_Tron]

These two things might not be as compatible as you think.


Land Tax is, was, and would be terrible. Someone please provide a list of Land Tax that you think would be playable. Not even broken, I'd settle for playable.

Land Tax is terrible because one of two things has to happen for it to trigger;

1) You have to be skipping land drops to make it work. You're then getting, in return... more basic land. That you can't play. Life from the Loam does this trick without the drawback.

2) Contorts your entire deck into a Mox-laden card-disadvantage machine that falls apart without Land Tax and barely functions with it. And then you draw six cards off of Scroll Rack... and... surprise! They're mostly more shitty artifact mana and other cards in your 30-cardslot-draw "engine".


YES. This is what people do not understand somehow. Drawing 6 cards isnt good if the 6 cards are all crap, as they would have to be in such a deck, which wouldnt even be playable, as you said.

T.T

[Jak]

These two things might not be as compatible as you think.

Land Tax is, was, and would be terrible. Someone please provide a list of Land Tax that you think would be playable. Not even broken, I'd settle for playable.

Land Tax is terrible because one of two things has to happen for it to trigger;

1) You have to be skipping land drops to make it work. You're then getting, in return... more basic land. That you can't play. Life from the Loam does this trick without the drawback.

2) Contorts your entire deck into a Mox-laden card-disadvantage machine that falls apart without Land Tax and barely functions with it. And then you draw six cards off of Scroll Rack... and... surprise! They're mostly more shitty artifact mana and other cards in your 30-cardslot-draw "engine".

In decks that would even consider using it, Life from the Loam and Sensei's Divining Top are infinitely better, respectively.

The Mighty Quinn sans making land drops is not as busted as you think.

Yes, I agree what I said is a little messed up. I meant he isn't overpowered for Legcay just a better alternative in a lot of decks. Maybe that does make him banworthy? It is hard to argue for him to be banned or that he is fair because there are a lot of pors and cons.

Now about Quinn. I just used that as an example because it is the closest deck to Parfait in Vintage. I think it could be tweaked to abuse it more.

[mtg_freak]

Land Tax is, was, and would be terrible. Someone please provide a list of Land Tax that you think would be playable. Not even broken, I'd settle for playable.


That is a poor statement as Land Tax used to be good in slower environments even in Legacy or actually Type 1.5; however, in this environment (which is the only thing that should matter to the DCI) it would not be very good due to the reasons said above.

//Should be the end of discussion//

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Land Tax is simply too much work. Decks don't win by drawing cards. You could just go ahead and play Accumulated Knowledge and Fact or Fiction and Standstill all in the same deck and draw more cards, but winning requires more than cards in hand. He who dies with the most cards in their hand is still dead.

[Anusien]

Land Tax would be a much more dangerous card if the retrace cards that cost less than five didn't suck. That said, I wonder if you can get Worm Harvest going and just barf over the board.

Why is it that people feel Land Tax is so dangerous and no one is making an effort to play with Endless Horizons? You can even remove white duals with EH.

[FoolofaTook]

Land Tax would be a much more dangerous card if the retrace cards that cost less than five didn't suck. That said, I wonder if you can get Worm Harvest going and just barf over the board.

Why is it that people feel Land Tax is so dangerous and no one is making an effort to play with Endless Horizons? You can even remove white duals with EH.

Endless Horizons is slow as molasses. Land Tax at W1 would be half as valuable as it is at W. The thing that makes Land Tax work is that it lands turn 1 and either draws a force or is there in play. That makes it practical to design a deck to take advantage of it's other characteristics, which in turn makes it not a terrible topdeck if it lands on turn 5 or 6 or whatever.

Who would play Sensei's Divining Top if it cost 4?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The problem here is that people have heard others talk about how awesome Parfait was back in the day with Land Tax, when it could run Jewelry, and aggro decks had a mana curve of at least 1 higher than it is now. Without original Moxen, Sol Ring and Mana Vault, and in the presence of Aether Vial and Tarmogoyf, you're looking at a very different scenario. I don't think anyone advocating Land Tax as deserving to stay on the banned list has tried playing it in any format like Legacy. I know I tried it way, way back in Crazy 88's, which could even somewhat hope to force dissynergy by playing Extraplanar Lens and falling behind on land count while staying ahead in mana, and I still took it out after one tournament. The huge design flaw becomes apparent really quickly.

Them: Land, threat, go.
You: Plains, tap, Land Tax.
Them: Do something else, don't play a land.
You: "Fuck! Land, go."

It becomes really hard to run a deck playing Land Tax without making land drops every turn, which most opponents don't want to do. And by the time you alter it to allow you to skip land drops and still function, you no longer want the effect that Land Tax offers. It's a catch-22, unless you have Jedi powers and can force your opponent to play lands.

[FoolofaTook]

Them: Land, threat, go.
You: Plains, tap, Land Tax.
Them: Do something else, don't play a land.
You: "Fuck! Land, go."



Very few non-combo decks actually put out an active threat on turn 1 unless they're goblins. Survival decks will drop a Vial, and that's an issue you have to deal with but mostly people are setting the table with their first drop and 1cc spell off of it.

Even so, the scenario you posit could just as easily be:

Them: Land, threat, go.
You: Mox Diamond, Land Tax, go.
Them: Fuck! Land, go.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, that scenario is great, except for reality. Let's count cards.

Mox Diamond: -1 CA
Land Tax: -1 CA
Land Tax Activation: +3 CA*

So, so far we have +1 net CA. However, this is still purely technical CA. We've skipped the nominal effect of Mox Diamond, mana acceleration, entirely, and what we've gained in return is assured land drops the next few turns. But I don't think anyone's argued that Kodama's Reach is busted; Hell, you're still behind Krosan Tusker for more work and without the alternate beatstick ability.

You can't guarantee that they're going to drop a second land in that scenario; it's unlikely they would. Thresh can live off 1 mana, as can Goblins. I guess Enchantress would, but their CA engine already puts yours to shame. You could continue triggering Land Tax by skipping more land drops, but then the effect of your CA becomes more and more illusory; CA only wins if those cards do something, and Land Tax's nature trends away from their doing just that.

Life From the Loam is Land Tax on a ridiculously higher power level, and no one's trying to ban that.

[FoolofaTook]

Life From the Loam is a very powerful card, however it has multiple dependencies before it goes broken, those being:

1. You have to have land in the graveyard (and in fact -A- graveyard) in order for it to do anything at all for you.

2. It sits in the graveyard vulnerable to Extirpate (particularly), but also other effects that remove cards from graveyards, each time it is manipulated to produce it's advantage.

3. There are multiple ways to just hose the hell out of a Life From the Loam engine even if you in theory have it running, with Blood Moon effects topping the list - since you waited to get the effect running and now the freebies you are pulling don't have much value at all. A Life From the Loam engine wants to use the special abilities of the lands it pulls unlike Land Tax which just wants to pull land to get it's effect going.

If Life From the Loam was a 1cc green sorcery that read: Return 3 target lands from your graveyard to your hand. Dredge 3. It would be banned because it would be too easy to get the effect in play and create an overpowering scenario on the first turn. Obviously that would be fetch, play LFtL to return the fetch and then dredge turn 2. Note that there would be no guarantees that any of the above cases wouldn't hose the engine completely but it would be just too fast for the average deck to cope with.

Similarly if Land Tax was W1 to cast there'd be no really good argument for banning it. It's the turn 1 permanent in play that then directs the opponent's play that WoTC does not like, particularly given the likelihood that somebody will figure out how to heavily abuse it if it becomes legal.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

We've been over this. You're not measuring opportunity costs. Land Tax is far more expensive than LftL because of the constrictions it puts on your gameplan.

[FoolofaTook]

We've been over this. You're not measuring opportunity costs. Land Tax is far more expensive than LftL because of the constrictions it puts on your gameplan.

Yes, but it also puts constrictions on the opponent's gameplan, and the opponent doesn't have a deck optimized to run under those constrictions. That's WoTC's point.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Yes, but it also puts constrictions on the opponent's gameplan.Not really, they can go on with their normal plan while you get a bunch of basic lands to recoup the card and tempo cost you payed.

[FoolofaTook]

Not really, they can go on with their normal plan while you get a bunch of basic lands to recoup the card and tempo cost you payed.

If you offered me the chance to start with 3 extra basic land in my hand in return for missing a land drop I'd probably take it 9 times out of 10. Decks run on 2 mana. Some themes need a bit more but getting one land behind the curve isn't going to kill people. If it did then Daze would never see play. Daze sees play, BTW, despite the fact that it often cedes TWO land drops to the opponent at the start of the game. What kills people early on in terms of tempo is NEVER finding the land they need. Yes, it really sucks if you are missing land drops because you cannot draw land.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Solidarity hopes to avoid all-land Meditates. You honestly think that's a great deal? You're giving up an entire turn to insure that you don't miss a land drop turns 4-6? That's unbelievably awful. You don't even follow your own supposition to it's logical conclusion; if decks can run on 1-3 mana very efficiently, why bother getting an extra three lands at the cost of tempo? You could just be winning for that mana, which is what most other decks are going to be doing. Also, Daze doesn't cede two land drops. What the fuck are you talking about? People play Daze because they don't care about getting five or six lands in play.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If you offered me the chance to start with 3 extra basic land in my hand in return for missing a land drop I'd probably take it 9 times out of 10. Decks run on 2 mana. Some themes need a bit more but getting one land behind the curve isn't going to kill people. If it did then Daze would never see play. Daze sees play, BTW, despite the fact that it often cedes TWO land drops to the opponent at the start of the game. However it will cost you resources to play Land Tax. It doesn't start in play. I could describe it, but I believe Mr. BearAssassin has already been thought this.
Mox Diamond: -1 CA
Land Tax: -1 CA
Land Tax Activation: +3 CA*

So, so far we have +1 net CA. However, this is still purely technical CA. We've skipped the nominal effect of Mox Diamond, mana acceleration, entirely, and what we've gained in return is assured land drops the next few turns. But I don't think anyone's argued that Kodama's Reach is busted; Hell, you're still behind Krosan Tusker for more work and without the alternate beatstick ability.

You can't guarantee that they're going to drop a second land in that scenario; it's unlikely they would. Thresh can live off 1 mana, as can Goblins. I guess Enchantress would, but their CA engine already puts yours to shame. You could continue triggering Land Tax by skipping more land drops, but then the effect of your CA becomes more and more illusory; CA only wins if those cards do something, and Land Tax's nature trends away from their doing just that.

[FoolofaTook]

Solidarity hopes to avoid all-land Meditates. You honestly think that's a great deal? You're giving up an entire turn to insure that you don't miss a land drop turns 4-6? That's unbelievably awful. You don't even follow your own supposition to it's logical conclusion; if decks can run on 1-3 mana very efficiently, why bother getting an extra three lands at the cost of tempo? You could just be winning for that mana, which is what most other decks are going to be doing. Also, Daze doesn't cede two land drops. What the fuck are you talking about? People play Daze because they don't care about getting five or six lands in play.

On the draw you will be down two lands for your opponent's third and likely fourth turns if you daze something on his second turn, which is the first opportunity that you have to do that.

Opponent: Drop a land, go.
You: Drop a land, go.
Opponent: Drop a land, 2-drop, you Daze.
You: Drop a land, go.
Opponent: Drop a land (3 lands in play to your one), whatever.

Of course we all know how valuable Daze is in the mid-game after you draw a FoW to make it mean anything. In the late game, please. And yet people feel that it's better to play Daze for the impact it has on a vanishingly small number of turns early, even though it leaves them with tempo loss in the form of effectively a missed land drop if used.

The other thing is that you keep looking at the lands that are being collected by Land Tax as being used mainly as land. I can assure you that the Land Tax decks that I played against were rarely looking to use those lands as land. The meta was long ago and so the comparisons mean nothing now but what Land Tax decks were looking to do back then in a much, much smaller card pool was to fuel Ivory Tower and Land's Edge and Stormbind and dozen other things that I've blocked because they were so frustrating to play against once the effect came into play. I can assure you that there are much grosser things to do these days with the vastly expanded card pool, it's just that nobody has bothered to look for them because the cards that fuel the effect (the excess land) are not available early enough and the cards that they trigger are not valuable without easy access to extra blanks to fuel them. Who knows, maybe Nantuko Cultivator is actually a killer card when you have easy access to 6 extra land and a deck constructed to make fast mana without deploying much in the way of land?

Expanding a little bit: Terravore is easy to cast off of Elvish Spirit Guides, a land and another piece of acceleration, maybe even your second land drop on turn 3 and he's also a 6/6 trampler with two turns worth of Land Taxing chucked in the graveyard, and there's no reason you wouldn't be able to do that since you want to hold back on drops early other than the 1 land and Land Tax and a side effect is you could easily plan to put extra land in the graveyard in 1's, 2's and 3's as you go. Life From the Loam AND Land Tax presents the very real possibility of going to get land that you'll have to chuck in the graveyard turn two only to recover very quickly, maybe as early as turn three. Land's Edge would be damn vicious with Land Tax having dumped the land in your graveyard early and then Life From the Loam recycling it quickly thereafter. Both of these ideas might well come in decks that said I'll draw instead of I'll play when they won the roll insuring the effect would get started quickly. BTW, neither of these are necessarily good ideas that would work well in this meta but the fact that I thought of them within 5 minutes of actively trying to come up with combos makes me think there are much bigger sharks prowling around out there waiting to surface on us.

Here's a list which is not broken (no way it could be given that I took all of 30 minutes to put it together) but which serves to illustrate how Land Tax can fit in several broken combos that need a response NOW when they happen and that are varied enough that all cannot be resolved by the same answers.

Land's End

4x Land Tax
4x Life From the Loam
3x Wasteland (maybe Nantuko Monasteries or Mishra's Factories in the sideboard for when Wasteland is a waste)
3x Land's Edge
4x Terravore
2x Nantuko Cultivator
3x Magus of the Moon (easy sideout card for when not appropriate but it hoses the hell out of half the meta right now)
2x Vexing Shusher
2x Armageddon
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Krosan Grip
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Savannah
2x Taiga
1x Plateau
4x Plains
3x Forest
1x Mountain

[SuckerPunch]

One key step in people taking legacy seriously is if we can be sure that every card on the banned list actually deserved to be there, and wasn't just put there on a whim.

That would get more vintage players to respect and try legacy

The DCI needs to unban more cards, seriously.

The more cards unbanned, the better (just nothing in the power 9, and not Yawg's Will)

We can sort out anything that's truly broken and reban it later.

The format has matured enough that it will become obvious fairly quickly which cards are broken and which aren't the second that the DCI lets us get our grubby hands on them once again.

It's far better to unban it now, be sure, and then reban the broken cards, than to play it safe.

[undone]

SuckerPunch One key step in people taking legacy seriously is if we can be sure that every card on the banned list actually deserved to be there, and wasn't just put there on a whim.

That would get more vintage players to respect and try legacy

The DCI needs to unban more cards, seriously.

The more cards unbanned, the better (just nothing in the power 9, and not Yawg's Will)

We can sort out anything that's truly broken and reban it later.

The format has matured enough that it will become obvious fairly quickly which cards are broken and which aren't the second that the DCI lets us get our grubby hands on them once again.

It's far better to unban it now, be sure, and then reban the broken cards, than to play it safe.

I fully endorse this product or course of action.

The cards I would leave banned are

P9
Will
Mana artifacts (sol ring mana vault/cryp and kinda metal worker)
Retarted tutors (demonic vampiric and imperial)
broken lands ( bazaar, and acadamay)
Single card combos (oath and H druid maby)
and
Banned blue cards costing 2 mana or less (like flash and gush simply because blue doesnt need to be MORE intensive in the format)

[SuckerPunch]

One key step in people taking legacy seriously is if we can be sure that every card on the banned list actually deserved to be there, and wasn't just put there on a whim.

That would get more vintage players to respect and try legacy

The DCI needs to unban more cards, seriously.

The more cards unbanned, the better (just nothing in the power 9, and not Yawg's Will)

We can sort out anything that's truly broken and reban it later.

The format has matured enough that it will become obvious fairly quickly which cards are broken and which aren't the second that the DCI lets us get our grubby hands on them once again.

It's far better to unban it now, be sure, and then reban the broken cards, than to play it safe.
I fully endorse this product or course of action.

The cards I would leave banned are

P9
Will
Mana artifacts (sol ring mana vault/crypt and kinda metal worker)
Retarded tutors (demonic vampiric and imperial)
Broken lands ( bazaar, workshop and academy)
Single card combos (oath and hermit druid maybe)
and
Banned blue cards costing 2 mana or less (like flash and gush simply because blue doesnt need to be MORE intensive in the format)

That seems like a perfect and very reasonable philosophy.

[FoolofaTook]

I fully endorse this product or course of action.

The cards I would leave banned are

P9
Will
Mana artifacts (sol ring mana vault/cryp and kinda metal worker)
Retarted tutors (demonic vampiric and imperial)
broken lands ( bazaar, and acadamay)
Single card combos (oath and H druid maby)
and
Banned blue cards costing 2 mana or less (like flash and gush simply because blue doesnt need to be MORE intensive in the format)

You would unban Necropotence? On the theory that it needs to be proven broken?

[SuckerPunch]

No, he would leave Necropotence banned.

On the FACT that it IS a single card combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know. Necropotence is a lot like Skullclamp; it provides repeated and insane card draw, but set up in such a way as to discourage it's use in almost all combo. Both can't exist in a Standard or even Extended-level environment without breaking it, but it's not entirely clear if that's true of Legacy. It's restriction are a black-heavy commitment instead of a creature-heavy. And black's currently the weakest color in Legacy (probably after White, now, I guess). Give people a reason to run Dark Ritual, why not? Hell, even combo's gone red. Necropotence could well end up on the banned list again, and probably would, along with Skullclamp, but I think if you're going to take a "unban almost everything to see what gets banned again" approach, both are fair game.

[SuckerPunch]

And black's currently the weakest color in Legacy (probably after White, now, I guess).

You're insane. Black is the second/third strongest color in legacy. It offers everything disruption, efficient threats, removal, tutoring, board control.

I think what you meant to say was, black is the least splashed for color in legacy in blue based decks. That honestly doesn't mean a whole lot. Blue based decks are looking for very specific niche roles from the colors they splash. You have to look at decks that are predominantly one color to assess that colors powerlevel overall.

How many predominantly green decks can you name in legacy that are competive? I can't name one.

Red has Goblins, Burn and Dragon Stompy and that's about it. White has Angel Stompy/Stax and that's it.

Black has Eva Green, Ichorid, both of which are easily tier one and Pox and Deadguy both of which are severely underrated and certainly tier two atleast. It even has reanimator and Train Wreck in tier 2.5/3. Not to mention rock variants which are usually more black than green. Black's the second most powerful (possibly tied there with red) imho.

It's most certainly NOT the weakest color in legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What barometer are you using? I mean, we could count cards in actual tournament winning/ T8'ing decks. Last time I did this, black was dead last. That was before Thoughtseize, but it was also before Ponder and Tarmogoyf.

[SuckerPunch]

How many cards does green have that actually see play?

That's the barometer I'm using.

Just because every blue deck splashes Tarmogoyf doesn't make green the second most powerful color all of a sudden.

One card does not singlehandedly make up for a lifetime of getting shafted.

How many cards does green have that actually see play in competitive decks? I count Goyf, Mongoose, Krosan Grip and one or two others.

For black I could very easily list 20 from just the tier one decks: eva green cards + ichorid cards + tendrils, tutors + leylines and other sideboard cards.

[ParkerLewis]

How many cards does green have that actually see play?

That's the barometer I'm using.

Just because every blue deck splashes Tarmogoyf doesn't make green the second most powerful color all of a sudden.

One card does not singlehandedly make up for a lifetime of getting shafted.

How many cards does green have that actually see play in competitive decks? I count Goyf, Mongoose, Krosan Grip and one or two others.

For black I could very easily list 20 from just the tier one decks: eva green cards + ichorid cards + tendrils, tutors + leylines and other sideboard cards.

It's probably a good approach, but you should also take into consideration the number of occurences of each one. I mean, for example, Tarmogoyf alone probably appears as often as the three most common black cards combined. Then Grip probably sees as much play as the next three most common black cards combined. Now maybe it's not the case, but you see the point.

Anyway, if you're willing to take the time to do it for the top 8 from last month tourneys, the result could be informative.

[SuckerPunch]

I don't see it being worthwhile to expend a lot of time on that.

My point is, for a color to be considered the second most powerful color in magic, it has to be able to function outside of the support role.

Blue, black, red, and on very very rare occasion white are able to function as the primary color for a competitive deck. Green doesn't share that accomplishment. White only does so in one instance Armageddon/Angel Stax. So both color would rank as the two weakest colors in legacy.

I don't consider working in a support function to offer one specific purpose, but not being able to stand largely on its own, a characteristic of a strong color.

Yes its just my opinion. But I was clear about the reasons for tha opinion. If you agree with my reasoning, fine. If not, that's okay too.

[ACME_Myst]

TIBA has a point. I know I will probably get shot for saying this, but Necro as a four-off didn't prove as broken as I thought it would be.

I slapped it in a modified TES shell to see how it would perform, and it was very unspectacular.

The heavy commitment on black rituals somewhat diluted the setup cantrips and starting hands. Generally, I would cast turn 1 cantrip, turn 2 Necro, and combo off turn 3, but only with 1-2 protection spells. This is the same speed and protection as FT/Doomsday, except you'll likely get your turn 2 Necro countered and get X-for-one'd, depending on how many resources you invested into playing Necro (cantrip into Ritual, turn 2 Ritual, Necro, Daze sucks balls).

Of course, I could be wrong here, but it would be interested to see how unbanned Necro would perform for 1 season.

[Clark Kant]

One key step in people taking legacy seriously is if we can be sure that every card on the banned list actually deserved to be there, and wasn't just put there on a whim.

That would get more vintage players to respect and try legacy

The DCI needs to unban more cards, seriously.

The more cards unbanned, the better (just nothing in the power 9, and not Yawg's Will)

We can sort out anything that's truly broken and reban it later.

The format has matured enough that it will become obvious fairly quickly which cards are broken and which aren't the second that the DCI lets us get our grubby hands on them once again.

It's far better to unban it now, be sure, and then reban the broken cards, than to play it safe.

I'll echo the several others who heavily agreed with this strategy.

As for Necro, lets be serious shall we. We have real cards like Dreamhalls that deserve come off the list. We don't have time to waste talking about Necro that clearly won't and don't deserve to either.

Just because it's not broken in traditional TES doesn't mean jack about it's power level.
I would run it in a black deck with a light white splash and a random combo win (Grindstone, Servant in a deck with Enlightened Tutor and Necropotence seems strong).

White brings in cards like Faith Fetters, Exalted Angel and that 3/2 Ouphe guy that are solid and gain you some life. Maybe throw in a green splash for Goyf and Loxodon Hierach for additional life gain.

Both black and white have several very strong board control elements (Ghostly Prison etc). If you play enough solid cards that gain life, you could build a solid midrange aggro deck oddly enough.

[FoolofaTook]

If you unban many of the cards on the banned list all you'll do is recreate the Flash-Hulk disaster in a repetitive cycle where the most broken deck is found fairly quickly and dominates the meta and then the key cards in it are rebanned, followed by the next most broken deck being found and creating the same havoc.

I expect the reverberations would be felt for 18 months or more given that people would likely flood to the most broken decks quickly, leaving the lesser broken decks underplayed until a few other cards were rebanned.

I don't know about you guys, but I like a fairly stable meta that evolves slowly over time. The idea of playing in a deck of the month meta, feverishly trying to get in the best broken deck while it's cards remained unbanned is highly unappealing.

How many people really enjoyed playing in the brief Flash-Hulk meta? You'd have that x3 with the unbannings. The idea that a bunch of broken decks would emerge to compete with each other is unlikely. If Flash had not been banned fairly quickly the meta would have evolved into 50% Flash decks and 50% anti-Flash decks.

BTW, there would be one bright spot to this scenario: there is no way in hell Land Tax would be broken or even remotely close to it in a meta where 50 other previously banned cards were floating around.

[SuckerPunch]

No one here is seriously arguing that Necropotence, Workshop, Bazaar or any of the blatant broken cards actually be unbanned in the format.

We're just talking about stuff like

Dreamhalls

Illusionary Mask (Stifle, Trickbind and Vision Charm all do the same thing for cheaper)


and possibly even...

Land Tax

Black Vise

Mind Twist

Entomb

Grim Monolith

Earthcraft (remember, this only works on BASIC lands)

Mana Drain (probably not)

Frantic Search (probably not)

Metalworker (probably not)

Time Spiral (probably not)


None of these cards are on the level of Flash Hulk. Some may create new viable decks, but nothing that's going to rip legacy a new one.

The decks won't consistently beat traiditional decks such as Threshold, Dreadstill, Eva Green etc. They're just going to open up the format a bit.

If one of two of them prove broken, we can always reban them.

It's called the birthpangs of having a mature format.

A format can't be called mature until the cards on it's banned list are proven to be good enough to belong there.

It made sense to ban those cards initially, to ensure that as many viable strategies get explored as possible. But now that we have several strong uber competitive decks, introducing a couple of moderately strong cards isn't going to destroy the metagame.

[FoolofaTook]

Just my opinion but I think the right cards are on the banned list right now and it's very possible there should be a few additions at this point as opposed to subtractions.

The banned list is designed to create a relatively balanced format with a minimum of must-play cards and a minimum of overpowered turn 1 and turn 2 plays. The exception to the rule is that over-powered defensive cards that cannot win the game except in concert with other cards are allowed to see play. Of course if you allow the broken offensive cards into play then you have also magnified the value of the already over-powered defensive cards and the format becomes a much drearier thing, much like Vintage is now.

There are two distinct eternal formats: Vintage, where almost anything goes although they limit the dosages of power present by restricting cards that would otherwise be banned, and Legacy, where people are allowed to build decks in a format that is not dominated offensively by a small group of cards that force you to either race very quickly or play the broken defensive cards in response. You're still better off in Legacy if you race or play several of Counterbalance, FoW, StP, Krosan Grip, etc, however you're not DoA if you don't choose to do one of those things.

[ParkerLewis]

and possibly even...

Black Vise

Mind Twist

Entomb

Grim Monolith

Mana Drain (probably not)

Frantic Search (probably not)

No.

[undone]

No.

Types of cards not listed would be left unbanned.

Necro would be unbanned simply because force + Counter top can negate the CA. In the current game Dark rit necro would often be met with "Daze 2for1 you" Also burn just beats necro. Period.

With the exception of mana drain as it is uniquely a problem as it creates degenerate mana advantage. (also time spiral but I think that was a sorta dumb idea :rolleyes: bargain would also stay banned obv )

Cards on the fence would be along the lines of

Necro
Timespiral
Entomb
Frantic search
Metal worker

Things like that would be on the edge but might pass as they would probably prove to just be good, not broken.

[Kadaj]

Black Vise? I fucking hate that card, so I really can't put out an impartial opinion on it. But, I could see arguments for both unbanning and remaining banned. I tend to agree with the remain banned side, but then again, I'm bias.

Mind Twist? I could see it. In fact, I really don't think that card is particularly strong in Legacy. Yes, it is easily splashable for what is a devastating effect for 4-5 mana, but then again, it's 4-5 mana for that ridiculous effect. Otherwise you end up with Hymn, or Specter's Wail. Hard to say, but I could envision it being less than degenerate.

Entomb? No. Ichorid is good enough without this, thank you very much.

Grim Monolith? It makes Belcher stronger, might have some sort of application in Stax, and makes my favorite deck ever viable again. Considering none of the above are going to be blowing anyone away in the near future, I'd say this card is fine.

Mana Drain? Bwahahahahahahahahaha. No.

Frantic Search? I'm sure most of you will think of Solidarity and go "Well, that's fine. It isn't very good anymore." Lest we forget the card has applications in just about all other combo and even some control. Thanks, but no thanks.

Land Tax... I don't give a crap. The card will either do nothing, or spawn a fairly strong/viable deck. I don't see either of those options as apocalyptic.

Dream Halls is one of those cards that's either broken as fuck or completely irrelevant. Do I think it'll be broken? No. But, it has literally no non-combo applications, and as such I don't see it as something anyone really cares about being on or off the list either way.

Earthcraft is the same as Dream Halls. Except there's no way in hell it turns out to be good. So I don't care either way.

Metalworker is a hell of a lot more explosive than Grim Monolith, and has the potential to create some pretty good Mono-Brown decks. But, I don't see that as a bad thing by any stretch of imagination. I'm all for both this and Monolith coming off the list.

[Shawon]

Necro would be unbanned simply because force + Counter top can negate the CA. In the current game Dark rit necro would often be met with "Daze 2for1 you" Also burn just beats necro. Period.

How would CounterTop make a difference, or let me rephrase, make a reason to unban Necropotence? Combo decks can drop Necropotence before CounterTop comes down, or before CounterTop stops mattering. Also, keep in mind that decks that can cast Necropotence can also cast Duress/Thoughtseize, so opening/mulling to FoW isn't enough to keep Necropotence in check. And about Daze, Daze does nothing against a turn 1 Necropotence on the play.

"Burn just beats necro?" Necropotence tremendously helps combo decks, and I'm pretty sure combo decks have no trouble against Burn. Also, wouldn't Necro decks have easily accessible tools to life gain? The classic Ivory Tower + Necropotence synergy comes to mind.

If, for some reason in the unforeseeable future, Dark Ritual would be banned in Legacy, then it might be safe for Necropotence to come out and play. Emphasis on maybe.

[Shawon]

Mind Twist? I could see it. In fact, I really don't think that card is particularly strong in Legacy. Yes, it is easily splashable for what is a devastating effect for 4-5 mana, but then again, it's 4-5 mana for that ridiculous effect. Otherwise you end up with Hymn, or Specter's Wail. Hard to say, but I could envision it being less than degenerate.

Even with Dark Ritual to fuel out crazy turn 1-2 Mind Twists, I don't think Mind Twist unbanned would be devastating in Legacy. Mind Twist does nothing to prevent a player from recovering with Sensei's Divining Top. It doesn't send a suspended Ancestral Vision to the graveyard. It doesn't stop Loam from recurring. It doesn't hit combo fast enough as combo decks can just go off before Mind Twist hits or combo decks can just Orim's Chant to prevent Mind Twist from hitting.

In short, the format can more than deal with Mind Twist unbanned.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mind Twist would enable Demonstompy/MonoBrack not to suck, and that's about it. And that's a maybe, actually.

I think the Necropotence-Counterbalance argument is that Necro is a worse source of card advantage than Counterbalance, so if the latter is unbanned so should the former (be. Stupid convoluted sentence structure that I'm too lazy to fix). Which is actually kind of fair. Balance shuts down the board right away, a lot of the time. It's more situational but a lot more powerful. And Necro has plenty of drawbacks of it's own. I think people forget how much worse aggro was back when Necro dominated.

[Omega]

why are we talking about what cards to ban and unban, when the subject of the post is not? Pointless posts as always ; they lead to nothing.

Robert

[kirdape3]

Mind Twist I can buy.

I'm not sure however that you actually believe what you just said about Necropotence, however. Counterbalance/Top not only requires two cards to see play, but it's easier to play around than 'draw 6 eot' is.

As for anti-aggro work, the free spells are still there, you'd still play stuff like Ghastly Demise, Smother, Shriekmaw, etc., and you do have Damnation. This of course assumes that it won't be abused in some degenerate combination deck and just overwhelm people - Trix circa 2001 when it was killing literally everyone with Force of Will, Duress, and forty life.

[SuckerPunch]

I officially disavow myself of saying that Entomb should be unbanned. I was under the impression that it fetched a creature card and put it into yard, not that it fetched any card you wanted and put it into the yard. In short, my memory failed me.

I still stand by my statement that...

Illusionary Mask (Stifle, Trickbind and Vision Charm all do the same thing for cheaper)

Dream Halls

Land Tax

Mind Twist

Grim Monolith

Earthcraft

Black Vise (possibly)

could all potentially be unbanned without signficantly impacting the format. There is a very small chance that Worldgorger Dragon belongs on the above list as well (probably not).

Necropotence unbanned is just a ridiculously bad idea though.

As others said, CounterTop is a two card combo. Necro is a one card combo.

Not only that, but there is a lot of solid life gain around these days. Divinity of Sorrow, the white sands 1/1 creature, faith fetters, loxdon hierach and many other cards that are already very good and would get ridiculously good with Necropotence imho.

But of course, that's moot, the combo decks that would abuse Necropence don't care about gaining back the life. My point is that Necro wouldn't just be a combo card these days. It would be ridiculous in any control deck willing to run a little life gain.

In a deck with 4 dark rituals and acceleration, drawing a ton of cards off of necro means that you will be able to draw and cast both halfs of whatever combo they run (ex: grindstone + painter's servant) and win the game that very next turn after necro resolves.

[mercenarybdu]

Conservative view, as they are not moving as rapidly as what Liberals do in the overall turnouts.

[Shawon]

Illusionary Mask (Stifle, Trickbind and Vision Charm all do the same thing for cheaper)


Yeah, but it doesn't help that Illusionary Mask can put other creatures down. It can put a Tarmogoyf down without worrying about counters, or any other cheap creature. Also doesn't help that it stays in play after morphing a Nought, thus living another day to morph future Noughts/Goyfs into play. Neither does the fact you risk nothing activating Mask to play Nought, whereas if you cast Dreadnought + Stifle, you risk getting 2-for-1'd if you opp out-counters you.

Not saying that Mask should stay banned or be unbanned, but you gotta jump through a few more hoops if you want to prove your point that Mask should be unbanned.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I've said this before but I think that unbanned Twist makes Tomb Agro broken.

[Clark Kant]

I really did not want to get into banning and unbanning discussions, but that seems to be how the tides have turned.

After reading Shawon's post, I don't like the idea of unbanning Illusionary Mask anymore, at all.

Aside from Black Stompy aka. Blumpkin (really, do a search, it's hilarious), there's no place where Mind Twist seems broken. That said it can get fairly ridiculous in Blumpkin so I don't really know.

Turn one Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Mind Twist can really screw over your opponent.

Dreamhalls, Grim Monolith and possibly Earthcraft do seem like they should come off the list though.

Land Tax I could go either way on. But I think Dreamhalls is certainly more deserving.

[Shawon]

I've said this before but I think that unbanned Twist makes Tomb Agro broken.


Aside from Black Stompy aka. Blumpkin (really, do a search, it's hilarious), there's no place where Mind Twist seems broken. That said it can get fairly ridiculous in Blumpkin so I don't really know.

Turn one Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Mind Twist can really screw over your opponent.

Dreamhalls, Grim Monolith and possibly Earthcraft do seem like they should come off the list though.


I had to look at Demon Stompy decklists after reading the first post. Eeesh, well yeah, it would make Tomb Aggro scary.

Imagine this:

Turn 1: Tomb, Chrome Mox (Black, obv), Trinisphere (or Chalice@1).
Turn 2: City of Traitors, Mind Twist for 4.

However, that situation and Clark Kant's situation require lots of cards. Dark Ritual + Hippie is allowed today, and that only requires 3 cards, not 5 or 6 (don't forget to count the imprinted card on Mox). All for making your opp discard 4 cards. Not worth keeping Mind Twist banned.

Thus, I still think Mind Twist should be unbanned.

However...


Grim Monolith and Mind Twist should be NOT unbanned at the same time.


While Mind Twist would make Tomb Aggro scary, Grim Monolith + Mind Twist would make the deck much more faster and consistent, probably to the point of being degenerate.

Turn 1: Tomb, Grim Monolith.
Turn 2: Urborg, Mind Twist for 4.

That only requires 4 cards, losing 2 (Monolith and Mind Twist). That is insane and unfair.

In conclusion, it comes down to picking which one to unban: Mind Twist and Grim Monolith. I say Mind Twist as the format is too fast for Mind Twist to be degenerate and not Grim Monolith as the format doesn't need more speed, we're good for now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, but it doesn't help that Illusionary Mask can put other creatures down. It can put a Tarmogoyf down without worrying about counters, or any other cheap creature. Also doesn't help that it stays in play after morphing a Nought, thus living another day to morph future Noughts/Goyfs into play. Neither does the fact you risk nothing activating Mask to play Nought, whereas if you cast Dreadnought + Stifle, you risk getting 2-for-1'd if you opp out-counters you.

Not saying that Mask should stay banned or be unbanned, but you gotta jump through a few more hoops if you want to prove your point that Mask should be unbanned.

How do you prove that a card shouldn't be banned? I mean, Black Lotus is pretty fair when all it gets you is three turn 1 Wall of Woods. You prove that a card deserves to be banned by demonstrating broken things it would do. At least, that's what a rational person would do, although I have yet to meet the Land Tax-o-phobe who did so.

[Akuma]

Turn one Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Mind Twist can really screw over your opponent.

This requires the use of 5 cards to get rid of 4 of your opponents cards (at random). Hardly spectacular...

[Nihil Credo]

This requires the use of 5 cards to get rid of 4 of your opponents cards (at random). Hardly spectacular...
That's like saying that Land, Thoughtseize is a one-for-two.

[ParkerLewis]

That's like saying that Land, Thoughtseize is a one-for-two.

"You choose a nonland card from it. That player discards that card. You lose 2 life."

Well, i guess Thoughtseize is a one for two...

[Akuma]

That's like saying that Land, Thoughtseize is a one-for-two.

I guess the word "use" can be a little unclear. The play in question requires assembling a specific hand, which while providing a powerful effect, is not: 1) Consistent, 2) GG or 3) Out of line with other such combinations in Legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's like saying that Land, Thoughtseize is a one-for-two.

One requires significantly more contortions than the other. Thoughtseize is definitely a better card than Mind Twist.

[Nihil Credo]

I guess the word "use" can be a little unclear. The play in question requires assembling a specific hand, which while providing a powerful effect, is not: 1) Consistent, 2) GG or 3) Out of line with other such combinations in Legacy.
Yeah, I was just pointing out that CA wasn't the issue. I have no problem with observing that it's a rather unlikely play, what with 2BBB on turn 1 and all.

Granted, Mind Twist would still almost definitely be the best single-card use of 2BBB on turn 1 - except maybe for a nice five-drop (Greater Harvester?), though Mind Twist easily beats it on being cashable in at any other time.

Anyway, my opinion on Mind Twist is: I think it would indeed make a few underpowered decks more playable, but bumping a deck from "underpowered" to "underpowered and occasionally wrecks you before you can play a spell" does not seem like an improvement for the format to me.

[stalkerzero]

I'd like to see them do something to the format. Just to shake things up a bit. Whether that be a new ban/restriction or something coming off the list that was viable for a deck.

[Clark Kant]

Why are you guys concerned over Grim Monolith.

It generates one extra colorless mana once.

I would certainly not play it in Black Stompy just for the sake of Mind Twist. Would anyone?

Aside from Belcher, what deck would actually bother to run it?

I certainly wouldn't play it in Armageddon Stax or any Stax variant for that matter. There are far too many better cards that I would rather play than a very light mana accelerant.

I wouldn't play it in Blumpkin/Black Stompy. Once again, it has too little of an impact to be worth the slots it takes up.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Why are you guys concerned over Grim Monolith.

It generates one extra colorless mana once.Not quite. Turn one; Tomb, Monolith. Turn two, basic land. Six mana on turn two. There's justification to having it banned.

[kirdape3]

Actually, it's Tomb -> Monolith -> Metalworker, untap, potentially 14 mana available on turn 2. Sure, there's no Tinker around, but that was pretty busted in Extended.

[Clark Kant]

The broken card there is Metal Worker, not Monolith.


Not quite. Turn one; Tomb, Monolith. Turn two, basic land. Six mana on turn two. There's justification to having it banned.

But three of that mana is coming from lands. And the other two mana you spent on Monolith.

You spent five mana in order to get six mana. You are actually getting only one extra mana from Monolith. Same as Lotus Petal. Worse than Dark Ritual.

The real question is, what deck (now that Metal Worker is banned) is so reliant on getting 6 colorless mana on turn two that it would maindeck Grim Monolith?

And would that deck actually break the format?

[undone]

You will notice my analisis states

NO MANA ARTIFACTS,these are just bad for the format.

Nothing good can come from unbanning them.

Mind twist and necro are both not good enough to see real play. They can be unbanned.

I still hold true to the statement I said earlier, other then those catagories, everything should be unbanned.

You will also notice Yawg win is in a catagory all by itself.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

But three of that mana is coming from lands. And the other two mana you spent on Monolith.You know Monolith comes into play untapped right? If you play it on turn one, then don't tap it for mana, it will continue to be untapped all the way to your next main phase. Even longer if you don't tap it then.

I don't think that Monolith would break the format, however it's stronger then you give credit.

EDIT: After thinking about it more, Grim Monolith doesn't seem overpowered at all. It's like a Dark Ritual with suspend.

[Clark Kant]

Really... it comes into play untapped huh... you don't say...

/end sarcasm :tongue:


After thinking about it more, Grim Monolith doesn't seem overpowered at all. It's like a Dark Ritual with suspend.

It's worse than that. It produces colorless mana. If you want an additional colorless mana, there's several better ways to get it... Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Lotus Petal, SSG, ESG etc.

Aside from Belcher, what decks seriously wants more colorless mana than Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors already offers?

I don't see any of the _____ Stompy or _____ Stax decks even considering playing Grim Monolith. They have as much acceleration as they need and far better cards to run.

[emidln]

You will notice my analisis states

NO MANA ARTIFACTS,these are just bad for the format.

Nothing good can come from unbanning them.

Mind twist and necro are both not good enough to see real play. They can be unbanned.

I still hold true to the statement I said earlier, other then those catagories, everything should be unbanned.

You will also notice Yawg win is in a catagory all by itself.

I actually ruined a good keyboard when I saw this. Let's begin with Mind Twist. Mind Twist is not a turn one play. Anyone who says it is clearly has never tried to design a deck around it. It's scary because its use in black-splash Ancient Tomb aggro-prison decks like the UB Faerie Stompy, Demon Stompy allows them to drop lock pieces or threats on the first two turns and then effectively end the game turn 3, even if you countered the first two things they played. If they happened to resolve something like a Trinisphere or a threat, then the game actually is over. If all they do is hymn you with a bunch of spare colorless mana while beating for 3-4 on turn 3, that's fine too. The card will be played on turns 3-5 and it will end games whether or not it resolves.

Next we have Necropotence. Necropotence is a really interesting card because it effectively forces you to play one of three strategies: Burn, Black/x Aggro, and Black/x Control-Combo.

Black/x Control-Combo is a fairly scary deck. You play sets Brainstorms, Ponders, Dark Rituals, Cabal Rituals, Lotus Petals, Necropotence, Force of Will, Misdirection, Force of Will, and Tendrils of Agony. You can probably add in some misc tutoring action, more draw power, or more control as your style dictates but the basic concept is that we have the most degenerate TPS deck magic has ever seen. What you create in Legacy is every PitchLong or Ritual Gifts player's nut draws, but it happens every single game.

Black/x aggro plays Dark Ritual, Necropotence and then some sort of disruption strategy plus some beats. The actual disruption strategy probably doesn't matter because their hand is always full of disruption cards at the start of their turn causing their opponents to never really do anything. You might recognize this strategy from Magic Past. It was called "The Necro Deck" and it has a very direct analogue in either Red Death or Eva Green.

Burn is the metagame foil to Necropotence providing ways to stall their creatures, card draw, and answer their threats. Packed into either UR or BR to handle the times when Necro TPS tries to ignore you and you can beat both necropotence decks. Sadly, BR Suicide with Necro (aka Red Death with Necro) is probably better than straight burn or a disruption UR/URg strategy.

[conboy31]

I would like to see the DCI be a tad more tight with their restriction list which would mean a few of the cards on it would need to be justified again for being on it.

It would also be interesting if the DCI had some sort of list where they would note cards that are close to being banned or unbanned. I don't see how any harm could be done by this move and it would give the players more information on what may occur. Also by doing so the DCI would get a better feel for what would happen if a card is taken off because people will spend time on the few cards that are on the possible unrestricted list.

... wtf on necro not being good enough to play? In a format with 4 dark rits, 4 petals, 4 leds, 4 brainstorms, 4 ponders? Really? PM some of the tes/SI/fetchtend pilots and challenge them to make a deck and face off. I bet you get tbagged more often than you win.

[FoolofaTook]

Historically Mind Twist has been much more devastating in control decks that were splashing for it. The turn 1 twist for 4 didn't happen very often even in an environment with Black Lotus, moxes and Sol Ring to complement the often unused ( in those themes) Dark Ritual. What decks were looking to do with Mind Twist was to get a counter in hand in the midgame and then try to twist somebody from four or five cards to empty hand before dropping whatever their win condition was. The take off of that Mind Twist was usually a couple of spells and 3 blanks by then. Usually it took about 6 or 7 mana sources in play before they had the mana for the twist and the counterspell back up. Mind Twist off of Mana Drain was nasty but that combo isn't going to be in Legacy unless WoTC loses their mind at some point.

I don't know if that would still be devastating in the Legacy meta. There are so many other really nasty things, like CounterTop, that control decks have setup by the midgame that I don't know that Mind Twist would be a great card to have available for them, certainly not in more than 1x or 2x and even then they'd be giving up some other form of control for it.

Would black splash Threshold add 1x Mind Twist to 4x Thoughtseize? Maybe they would. Maybe they'd go to 3x Thoughtseize and 1x Mind Twist.

Just editing to say: Mind Twist sucked horribly as a topdeck when the opponent already had you beat on the board. Much like Thoughtseize does today.

[Citrus-God]

Historically Mind Twist has been much more devastating in control decks that were splashing for it. The turn 1 twist for 4 didn't happen very often even in an environment with Black Lotus, moxes and Sol Ring to complement the often unused ( in those themes) Dark Ritual. What decks were looking to do with Mind Twist was to get a counter in hand in the midgame and then try to twist somebody from four or five cards to empty hand before dropping whatever their win condition was. The take off of that Mind Twist was usually a couple of spells and 3 blanks by then. Usually it took about 6 or 7 mana sources in play before they had the mana for the twist and the counterspell back up. Mind Twist off of Mana Drain was nasty but that combo isn't going to be in Legacy unless WoTC loses their mind at some point.

I don't know if that would still be devastating in the Legacy meta. There are so many other really nasty things, like CounterTop, that control decks have setup by the midgame that I don't know that Mind Twist would be a great card to have available for them, certainly not in more than 1x or 2x and even then they'd be giving up some other form of control for it.

Would black splash Threshold add 1x Mind Twist to 4x Thoughtseize? Maybe they would. Maybe they'd go to 3x Thoughtseize and 1x Mind Twist.

Just editing to say: Mind Twist sucked horribly as a topdeck when the opponent already had you beat on the board. Much like Thoughtseize does today.


Mind Twist is the modern day Armageddon; it's there to wreck control decks. If Mind Twist ever gets unrestricted, it will be the day every midgame deck runs 3-4 Sensei's Divining Tops. That or we actually, god forbid, actually run maindeck Misdirections.

[FoolofaTook]

Mind Twist is the modern day Armageddon; it's there to wreck control decks. If Mind Twist ever gets unrestricted, it will be the day every midgame deck runs 3-4 Sensei's Divining Tops. That or we actually, god forbid, actually run maindeck Misdirections.

It won't wreck control decks. It probably won't help them as much as it used to though. There are so many counters floating around out there in the typical control deck these days that a successful Mind Twist will be a rare event against them.

Mind Twist will be used by control to try to sweep hands after the first flurries have gone by and the game has settled down into the parry and thrust that happens often at that point. It will be very good against combo if control survives the first and maybe second attempts to go off. Orim's Chant is going to be very unhappy with Mind Twist for 4 coming in on turn 5 or so. It will be an interesting option in the control mirror. It will do little to help control with the fast aggro matchups that can overwhelm it quickly.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Trust me when I say that you could not even begin to count the cards that are amazingly back-breaking in the control-on-control mirror. The problem is that most of them are awful maindeck, and the sideboard rarely matters when each game takes 40 minutes.

Haunting Echoes, for instance, is almost strictly better than Mind Twist in that slot, as it's also good against decks that don't want to keep cards in their hand forever.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't see Mind Twist as all that broken in the current meta. Last Rites is better at midgame sweeping of the hand and nobody plays the card. Trading 3 land and an inappropriate MD card for 4 cards you pick out of your opponent's hand is like a wet dream for a control deck wanting to drop it's win and yet the card does not see play.

[Anusien]

I don't understand this notion of burn being good against Necro. At least, won't Necro just untap and gain 20? And at worst, aren't they going to untap and Tendrils you or Soul Spike you out of the game?

[emidln]

I don't understand this notion of burn being good against Necro. At least, won't Necro just untap and gain 20? And at worst, aren't they going to untap and Tendrils you or Soul Spike you out of the game?

The general idea would be that a necro for 10 puts you in lethal range of your average burn deck on turn 2-3. Burn is much more effective when it is accompanied by other disruption so as to make you hopefully unable to cast that Tendrils/Soul Spike/etc the next turn. Straight Burn would be better against an Aggro-Control Necro deck like Bg or Br Suicide.

[Artowis]

The general idea would be that a necro for 10 puts you in lethal range of your average burn deck on turn 2-3. Burn is much more effective when it is accompanied by other disruption so as to make you hopefully unable to cast that Tendrils/Soul Spike/etc the next turn. Straight Burn would be better against an Aggro-Control Necro deck like Bg or Br Suicide.

So your casting disruption and dealing 10 damage to opp by turn 2 when said deck is on the play? Seems... unlikely.

[undone]

I think the reason people dont understand why I say necro should be unbanned is because its

1) horrid in combo when theres no Hard artifact mana (moxes and solrings and manavaults)

2) The 2 for 1 moxes we have would not make it degenerate just consistent.

3) Necro would make sui a viable deck.

4) Tendrils is not so good in necro (well of corruption the other is debateable)

5) Most of the time necro players draw 8-10 cards then want to wipe the enchantment away but cant.

6) Goblins has a good MU vs necro.dec

7) Anything that can cast EE for 3 has a good MU vs necro.

8) Combo (perticularly TES) has a good MU vs necro.

From my point of view more then 50% of the metagame has a good MU vs it. Only fish and threshold varients would have trouble with the crap ton of CA. Standstill is blue and doesnt hurt you its better then necro in most decks because unlike necro all 4 are good. The 2nd necro is a dead card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't understand this notion of burn being good against Necro. At least, won't Necro just untap and gain 20? And at worst, aren't they going to untap and Tendrils you or Soul Spike you out of the game?

Most decks draw cards naturally. Necro doesn't. You don't usually notice how completely critical that drawing cards naturally thing is til you stop doing it. Burn further limits your draws by depleting the resource you use to draw more cards and win the game, life. You can still gain life to counteract this, but you'll still be lower on life than before the burn started coming your way, hence why it's good against Necro.

Especially Flames of the Blood Hand.

[SuckerPunch]

I don't know if there is a better place for this. But here goes.

There was time long long ago when I argued that Tarmogoyf possibly should be banned in the format as it renders too many other creatures irrelevent.

I just want to say, formally, I was wrong.

I realize now that Tarmogoyf is a big reason that creatures are actually a viable strategy in legacy still. It is a reason why a deck like Boros can be so competitive.

It is good to have Tarmogoyf in the format. So I applaud it and hope that it never leaves, and also hope that it never gets an annoying brother that is as undercosted either.

[Akuma]

I think the reason people dont understand why I say necro should be unbanned is because its: reasons

Even though I would love it if Necropotence was unbanned, I can't honestly say that it would be a good thing for this format. The "disruption based, mostly black" Necro deck would actually be a good addition to the format, giving players an alternative to heavy blue decks.

Necro's problem lies when it is used in combo. The engine is just too good when used in combo decks. It can be used to fuel any combo deck, and it can be tailored to defeat most strategies.

Re: Tarmogoyf

I personally like Tarmogoyf, I just wish WotC printed something comparable for some of the other aggressive colors. For fun, I have been testing the following "fantasy" card:

1BB
Creature - 5/5

You know what, it isn't nearly as good as Tarmogoyf. Seriously WotC, give me something like this. My Juzams are angry because they should have had a casting cost of 1BB!!

[FoolofaTook]

It is good to have Tarmogoyf in the format. So I applaud it and hope that it never leaves, and also hope that it never gets an annoying brother that is as undercosted either.

The brother is already here in Figure of Destiny, although it will take awhile to prove that. Like Goyf FoD grows with the game state, landing as a 1/1 for 1cc and then morphing progressively into a 2/2, 4/4 and finally an 8/8. FoD is not better than Goyf but he is similar enough that he's a white or red answer to a topdecked Goyf after the game has stabilized, as well as possibly being an even better aggro rusher early. People will EoT activate his transformations and use him as card advantage by accelerating his threat without having to add additional cards from hand.

He'll fit in any deck that can produce significant red mana to activate him, with the understanding that ultimately it needs to be able to generate a combination of six red and white mana at some point to make him the finisher. That's why it's going to take awhile for it to become clear that he's at or near the Goyf level. Not many top tier decks can handle the mana costs involved with really only Moon decks like Dragon Stompy currently in the running. I think that will change.

[SuckerPunch]

No, FoD is really not at Goyf's level.

You drop a Goyf whenever, and beat with it for 5 damage the very next turn.

FoD will take a lot more turns, and a lot more mana investment to become that kind of a beater.

And while you invest a crapload of mana, several turns worth of mana into FoD to make him into a real threat, your opponent is just going to use that time to find their StP and StP it or Snuff Out it or whatever, and laugh at the fact that he just got rid of what you invested multiple turns, and a crapload of mana into.

If your opponent StPs a Goyf, big deal, it's a one for one trade at aroudn the same mana cost.

If they StP a FoD after you spent several turns pumping it up, they got a major tempo boost in the process.

[FoolofaTook]

There are real differences in the way that FoD and Goyf will be used that make your comparisons somewhat less valid. FoD will be dropped at very little cost as early as turn 1 and start beating. Goyf will usually be dropped turn 3 or 4 and begin beating as a 3/4 or therabouts. The two probably will do similar early game damage with FoD's damage being incremental and starting before potential blocks land.

Throwing an StP at FoD while it is small may well be the best use of the StP, given where it is likely to wind up, however many people will be loath to do that until the issue is pressed, seeking a tempo boost by waiting until it is activated to get rid of it and also waiting to see what else develops around it. Goyf will draw the StP immediately if it can reasonably be played. FoD's survivability will be moderately higher than Goyf's is my guess because it's not going to be removed as quickly and sometimes stuff happens when you wait.

FoD is much more usable with Moon effects and so it will often be played with sufficient red mana to pump it and with the opponent effectively blocked from responding in the near term by disruption. This is why I think it is going to take time for FoD to step forward: the meta is not red based at the moment, and although there are red-based decks they are vastly outnumbered by the 3c decks splashing green and thus vulnerable to Moon effects at some level.

BTW, this is only a standard issue at the moment but FoD's price is going through the roof. I bought a playset at $4.99 a pop a month ago and the price is now headed past $20. It'll probably hit $40 eventually and my guess is that standard is going to look very red and white for awhile. Maybe not, but in standard FoD is much worse than Goyf was.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Figure of Destiny is a nice car with a really good installment plan. Tarmogoyf is a nice car in an unmanned lot with no cameras, the keys in the seat, your 5,000$ cash back in small unmarked bills in the trunk, and a big neon sign that says, "We use the honor system". There's not really a comparison.

[emidln]

1) horrid in combo when theres no Hard artifact mana (moxes and solrings and manavaults)

You don't need these cards. 4 Dark Ritual, 4 Cabal Ritual, 4 Lotus Petal is fine.


2) The 2 for 1 moxes we have would not make it degenerate just consistent.

These cards suck and should not be played.


4) Tendrils is not so good in necro (well of corruption the other is debateable)

Tendrils of Agony is the best win condition for a Necro deck. It kills your opponent, and failing to do that, lowers their life significantly while drawing you more cards so you can protect yourself and win the game next turn.


5) Most of the time necro players draw 8-10 cards then want to wipe the enchantment away but cant.

Wrong. This is more accurate: "Most of the time necro players draw 8-10 cards then either kill their opponent or play a mini tendrils so they can draw another 10 cards and finish the game the following turn."


6) Goblins has a good MU vs necro.dec

No. Goblins lose especially hard to turn 1 Necro. You play Necro and draw some cards. They play Goblin Lackey. You play spells + Tendrils, either winning outright or drawing 10 cards. They attack with Goblin Lackey putting you between 6 and 10. They drop in SGC. They play Piledriver. You untap, play spells + Tendrils and win the game. Somehow their nuts draw doesn't beat your decent opener. Should you have something like Force in your opener for Lackey, Goblins can't win at all.


7) Anything that can cast EE for 3 has a good MU vs necro.

Anything that can resolve EE for 3 has better things to resolve than Necro, because by the time that you can resolve and use EE for 3, Necro has drawn 10-20 cards and the necro deck doesn't need Necro anymore (or has another if they need it). I think you're discounting the fact that Necro would play 8 pitch magic and 8 duress.


8) Combo (perticularly TES) has a good MU vs necro.

Combo would be playing Necro. A modern TES list would relish playing vs 4 Force, 4 Misdirection, 4 Duress Combo-Control. My guess is that nobody would actually play TES until Necro was banned again, and if they did, it would find a way to incorporate Necro itself.


From my point of view more then 50% of the metagame has a good MU vs it. Only fish and threshold varients would have trouble with the crap ton of CA. Standstill is blue and doesnt hurt you its better then necro in most decks because unlike necro all 4 are good. The 2nd necro is a dead card.

Your point of view is wrong. When you draw 10 cards, you have to discard. Those extra necros are perfectly fine to get RFG'd during your cleanup step leaving you with Forces, Rituals, and Tutor/Tendrils.

Undone, after reading your post, I seriously question whether you've ever actually played with Necro, let alone thought about how a legacy deck incorporating it would be designed.

[undone]

You cant draw more then 7 off necro unless im mistaken... (in 1 turn)

Orical text is At end of turn you get these cards. So Draw 10, discard 3 down to 7. I have only played honest necro based decks (IE ones without tendrils) The biggest problem with necro is you can set aside cards then get disenchanted/griped/EEed

Also T1 your mono black necro combo deck goes "Dark rit necro go back to 7"

Turn 1 land go

T2 you do some stuff tendrils me for say 10, go back to 7 cards I brainstorm in responce.

T2 Runed halo tendrils pass the turn.

Mono black combo isnt good.

I have played with fair necro decks and I can say that in formats with force of will I am unimpressed. Its alot like ravanger. People omgcrapmypantsawzomesause over it untill they actualy see its applications. I tried to build a combo deck around it using all the listed rituals + culling and 8 artifact men. Its just bad. There are NOT enough ritual effects to make it degenerate. Not even in the slightest.

Show me a list that would be even close to degenerate I will test it, I seriously doubt that it would do anything more then make sui REALLY good and make the format less blue.

So you have 12 ritual effects. Of those effects exactly 1 lands T1 necro, Of those effects 0 will resolve under counter top. The pitch spells your talking about are soul spike (seems bad..)and what? Also necro decks cant really run those spells in this format. See lack of retarted mana acceleration (IE lots of artifiact mana + tolarian "Im the most broken land ever".format)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You cant draw more then 7 off necro unless im mistaken... (in 1 turn)

Orical text is At end of turn you get these cards. So Draw 10, discard 3 down to 7. I have only played honest necro based decks (IE ones without tendrils) The biggest problem with necro is you can set aside cards then get disenchanted/griped/EEed

Also T1 your mono black necro combo deck goes "Dark rit necro go back to 7"You can play the activated ability on your opponent's turn. You don't discard at his end of turn.
T2 Runed halo tendrils pass the turn.What's stopping this from crushing TES now a days? Competance. That's what. Any combo deck has counter hate, especially against a two costing enchantment.
Mono black combo isnt good. Who said it had to be mono black? Most non-High Tide storm decks use black along side other colors.
Show me a list that would be even close to degenerate I will test it, I seriously doubt that it would do anything more then make sui REALLY good and make the format less blue.Any deck with Tendrils that can cast it turn one with Dark Ritual. Even Infernal Tutor LED into Necro would be good.

[Nihil Credo]

You can play the activated ability on your opponent's turn. You don't discard at his end of turn.

Pay 1 life: Remove the top card of your library from the game face down. Put that card into your hand at the end of your turn.

Doesn't mean it isn't still dangerous, though. In undone's scenario, not having a turn 2 Runed Halo/Meddling Mage means you die on the spot. You essentially need permanent hate to just buy time against an active Necro, because holding back that draw engine with counterspells and discard is like trying to seal a broken dam with a Band-Aid.

[FoolofaTook]

Turn 1 Dark Ritual-Necropotence turns into a rout against about 90% of the decks out there. The fact that an easy two card combo turn 1 can win the game the vast majority of the time makes Necropotence way too broken to be in the Legacy meta.

If you really want Necropotence back then you need to start arguing for banning Dark Ritual because that's the only way that Necropotence is going to see play again in our format.

[emidln]

You cant draw more then 7 off necro unless im mistaken... (in 1 turn)

You can draw as many cards as you have life for. You can even kill yourself with Necro. We just draw 10 cards and pitch the ones that suck keeping countermagic, rituals, and a tendrils/tutor.


Orical text is At end of turn you get these cards. So Draw 10, discard 3 down to 7. I have only played honest necro based decks (IE ones without tendrils).

Playing an honest deck and playing Necro TPS are completely different things. Necro isn't banned because people liked to use it casually. It was banned because it gives combo-control and aggro-control a ridiculous draw engine that will let them leverage their life into disruption until they win. Against Sui you can recover from their initial onslaught if they don't land a specter. Against Necro Sui, their initial onslaught never stops. You start tumbling downhill and can't recover because their disruption is always there. Against Necro TPS they outdraw you, outcounter you, and then they beat you.


The biggest problem with necro is you can set aside cards then get disenchanted/griped/EEed

EE requires 5 mana. You're either dead or have no control over the game (because if your opponent hasn't drawn the win, they drew countermagic and you're not getting rid of their necro anytime soon). The only card that could possibly matter is KGrip, and on turn 1 or 2 they get to Duress you. This still rules out the other path to victory, which is simply assembly double tendrils because they play rituals, tendrils, and cantrips. Even without Necro, they can assemble such a hand at least by turn 4 using Duress/Force to prevent anything bad from happening to them.


Also T1 your mono black necro combo deck goes "Dark rit necro go back to 7"

No, it's not mono black. The one in my MWS that I've been talking about plays Force of Will, Misdirection, Brainstorm, Ponder, and Bounce.


Turn 1 land go

T2 you do some stuff tendrils me for say 10, go back to 7 cards I brainstorm in responce.

T2 Runed halo tendrils pass the turn.

Mono black combo isnt good.

Runed Halo is terrible. It gets Duressed, Forced, and bounced.
Nobody would play monoblack combo except for you. Other people realize that there are good cards in blue. Every build would play at least 4 Force, 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, 4 random other blue counter (probably MisD) and some bounce. Mystical Tutor may or may not see play, but I haven't done extensive testing, only enough to show that basically every current archetype doesn't like seeing an unoptimized Necro TPS.


I tried to build a combo deck around it using all the listed rituals + culling and 8 artifact men. Its just bad. There are NOT enough ritual effects to make it degenerate. Not even in the slightest.

You must really suck at building combo. Like horribly. Why would you even think to include Necro in an SI shell? You do realize that the ONLY reason we played Culling the Weak in SI was to facilitate playing 12 spells that cost BB or more mana at a time right? If you're only playing Necro and Tendrils, you don't need anything beyond Dark Rit, Cabal Rit, and Lotus Petal. LED isn't strictly required (the build I have on MWS doesn't want or need it) although you could probably build a list using LED.


So you have 12 ritual effects. Of those effects exactly 1 lands T1 necro, Of those effects 0 will resolve under counter top. The pitch spells your talking about are soul spike (seems bad..)and what?

WTF are you talking about man? I don't even know what Soul Spike does, but it's probably terrible. There are exactly 7 good pitch spells: Force of Will and Misdirection being the two Necro would play (Pyrokinesis, Abolish, Bounty of the Hunt, Cave-in, and Contagion being the others). Necro decks in vintage don't even always play Tolarian Academy because it doesn't make black mana and isn't guaranteed mana.

[Sims]

WTF are you talking about man? I don't even know what Soul Spike does, but it's probably terrible. There are exactly 7 good pitch spells: Force of Will and Misdirection being the two Necro would play (Pyrokinesis, Abolish, Bounty of the Hunt, Cave-in, and Contagion being the others).

Soul Spike 5BB
Instant
You may remove 2 black cards in your hand from the game instead of paying Soul Spikes mana cost.

Soul Spike deals 4 damage to target creature or player and you gain 4 life.

[emidln]

Soul Spike 5BB
Instant
You may remove 2 black cards in your hand from the game instead of paying Soul Spikes mana cost.

Soul Spike deals 4 damage to target creature or player and you gain 4 life.

Seems that my prediction of terribleness was correct.

[Xenocide]

Are we seriously having an argument about unbanning fucking necropotence. Lets also have arguments about unbanning Library of Alexandria, Gush, Timetwister, and Windfall ffs.

[FoolofaTook]

Are we seriously having an argument about unbanning fucking necropotence. Lets also have arguments about unbanning Library of Alexandria, Gush, Timetwister, and Windfall ffs.

Oh gawd just let me play 4 Fastbond and 4 Timetwister and you can unban anything and everything and I won't care.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are we seriously having an argument about unbanning fucking necropotence. Lets also have arguments about unbanning Library of Alexandria, Gush, Timetwister, and Windfall ffs.

Indignation does not a coherent argument make.

@Soul Spike: Necropotence is not Yawgmoth's Bargain. This isn't as good when you can't keep refilling your hand the same turn. Comboing out over three or four turns isn't as scary.

[Nihil Credo]

Soul Spike would also mean 3 business cards for 4 random cards and a Flame Javelin. Not necessarily a good trade, especially if it doesn't kill something.

[SuckerPunch]

Indignation does not a coherent argument make.

Good thing I disagree with that, or I wouldn't be able to say this...

Are you f***ing kidding me. Necropotence is easily one of the top 20 most broken cards ever printed in the history of magic.

Unbanning it would rip legacy to shreds in under a week.

Anyone with an ounce of commonsense knows this to be a fact. And anyone that doesn't should be immediately banned from this thread so that the rational people can discuss cards that actually warrant being taken of the list.

I'm sorry, was that indignant? :tongue:

[undone]

Ill make this simple. Show me a "broken" decklist for this. Show me just 1 and I will add it to the 1 card combo section. I think that this is a case of scull clamp phobia. The card was too good when X, so it has to be too good in Y, but its ok in Z because its too slow.

I honestly think that your just saying "Its broken in X therefor its broken in Y"

On topic the cards on the top of my list for unbanning.

Land tax
Dream halls (even if its degenerate, its 5 Fing mana... FIVE)
Mana vault (This one is just a wish I know its a little too good for this format dont unban this AND the above please...)

I dont think any of those would really "wreck" the format, mana vault might speed it up but I doubt wreck it. Only vault would have any serious impact (read make belcher and storm combo more prominent) Dream halls no longer deserves its spot. Land tax is a card that fits in to the format nicely. Not broken would definately decrease the power of wasteland. Mana vault I do want unbanned but I fear what would happen if it was.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Good thing I disagree with that, or I wouldn't be able to say this...

Are you f***ing kidding me. Necropotence is easily one of the top 20 most broken cards ever printed in the history of magic.

Unbanning it would rip legacy to shreds in under a week.

Anyone with an ounce of commonsense knows this to be a fact. And anyone that doesn't should be immediately banned from this thread so that the rational people can discuss cards that actually warrant being taken of the list.

I'm sorry, was that indignant? :tongue:

People could, and did, say the same shit about Doomsday and Replenish. While some statements can be considered elementary, and not needing a great deal of justification, "X article in strategy game Y is too powerful and everyone should know that" cannot reasonably be considered to fall into the category.

It's quite possible that Necropotence is too strong for Legacy; in fact, this wouldn't surprise me. But I'd like to see a clearer case that it is; I think you fail to appreciate how very long it's been since Necropotence was unbanned in any format where creatures were heavily relevant, or unrestricted in a serious format at all. I think you fail to appreciate how much the game has changed in eight or nine years.

Also, unlike Skullclamp, I think Necro could be really interesting. There's a lot of limitations to it's use and things needed to make it really strong.

[undone]

Necro is not bargain, it does not win the game the turn it resolves.

Necro is not bargain, it wants to resolve on turn 3-4 when you have ran out of gas and hymned/duressed/therapied them to death.

Dark rit into necro is not as broken as it used to be. The format is faster, stronger, and more intelignet.

Build it all you Want Unless you show me some dumb insanely consistent list or something like that, I SERIOUSLY doubt it will be over powered.

In short in legacy skullclamp> Necro. Necro is a card very similar to force of will or brainstorm for blue, STP for white,or Tarmogoyf for green, The difference being, all of the above can be supported in 1 deck. Necro is a build around.

[C.P.]

But isn't Necro like Draw 4, except much better in terms of refuel? It may give Storm, or any combo for that matter, extra resiliency that we may not want to see. Try to think when you just hymned and Duressed the combo player and reduced him to topdeck mode, and he goes Necro, draw back to 7.

I can see the Necro being reasonable as long as it stays way from combo, but not sure if things will stay that way.

[FoolofaTook]

Necropotence is just gross in the effect it has on the game. It has one real drawback, a -1 card per turn penalty that is almost meaningless because of the fact that it only kicks in when you have an effect guaranteed to let you go +3 or more for several turns in a row in play. The argument that the life loss for drawing is significant can be resolved very simply: would the average player, playing ANY viable deck, be willing to give up 1 life a turn to draw an extra card? I think the answer is a resounding yes. Necropotence is like that situation on crack.

It would be used in black aggro decks, but it would probably be even more powerful in combo decks that already use Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual to power other effects. It would be very powerful in any deck using LED's and Infernal Tutor, as it would be the perfect thing to tutor for in other than a game ending sequence for the deck, and it would give the deck an early game option to use all the fast mana and Infernal Tutor to assemble the cards needed to kill with, instead of holding off for a turn or two to sculpt the hand.

Anybody who thinks Necropotence could be safely unbanned hasn't played very much against it in a fairly unlimited environment. It was broken as hell before Mirage was printed and nothing has happened in the interim to change that fact, quite the opposite.

[Shion]

Infernal Contract, :b::b::b:, +4 cards, can continue comboing immediately. Draw next turn if unable to combo out. Multiples are useful.

Necropotence, :b::b::b: , Possible +19 cards, Can't continue to combo, get cards at EOT and discard to seven, no draw next turn. Multiples become dead cards.

Also while it's true you could use LED+Tutor to empty your hand, search for one card and draw 6 off necro for next turn. In order for that to be a good play either your hand had no relevant cards or you wasted resources setting up for a win next turn.

Also In most combo decks (solidarity aside) taking more turns means decreasing your overall chances of winning a match. Perhaps you can argue that this wouldn't be the case with the ability to refill your hand each turn. However, you are sacrificing a significant portion of your life to do so, and are going to be down your regular draw per turn. Also with no way to get rid of it, going to low life stops your ability draw any cards at all. Also Ill-gotten gains does not interact well with a necro in play, which combo decks still run, if only as a singleton.

However without any real testing, the whole argument is theoretic nonsense. We all know no one is going to go out of their way to test a card that isn't legal. So all we have are half-informed opinions based largely on personal assumptions.

[C.P.]

Infernal Contract, :b::b::b:, +4 cards, can continue comboing immediately. Draw next turn if unable to combo out. Multiples are useful.

Necropotence, :b::b::b: , Possible +19 cards, Can't continue to combo, get cards at EOT and discard to seven, no draw next turn. Multiples become dead cards.

Also while it's true you could use LED+Tutor to empty your hand, search for one card and draw 6 off necro for next turn. In order for that to be a good play either your hand had no relevant cards or you wasted resources setting up for a win next turn.

Also In most combo decks (solidarity aside) taking more turns means decreasing your overall chances of winning a match. Perhaps you can argue that this wouldn't be the case with the ability to refill your hand each turn. However, you are sacrificing a significant portion of your life to do so, and are going to be down your regular draw per turn. Also with no way to get rid of it, going to low life stops your ability draw any cards at all. Also Ill-gotten gains does not interact well with a necro in play, which combo decks still run, if only as a singleton.

However without any real testing, the whole argument is theoretic nonsense. We all know no one is going to go out of their way to test a card that isn't legal. So all we have are half-informed opinions based largely on personal assumptions.

I'm aware, but it is a nice refueling engine. being reduced to top deck mode or locked under CB is not so scary anymore. No?

[FoolofaTook]

What do black combo decks mainly kill with? Tendrils of Agony. What feeds Necropotence better than any other spell? Tendrils of Agony. Where do you get Storm count from? Cards in hand at the start of turn plus whatever you can create using recursion, often using mid-turn tutors (not mainly draw - which is +1 Storm, but recursion.) What is the biggest weakness of black storm combo at the moment? That it can get cut off at a critical juncture and have it's storm count rendered meaningless. What's the second biggest weakness? That it has trouble refilling it's hand quickly after it fizzles. Having a source of continuous hyper-draw is the best way to turn both of those weaknesses into just a minor setback.

Consider:

Black combo goes off with Necropotence in play and it is countered at the crucial moment and the threat is ended. The response is to refill the hand via Necropotence and start over again fresh the very next turn.

Necropotence is so synergistic with Tendrils based black combo that it's hard to imagine that adding it to the mix would not be explosive.

[C.P.]

Black combo goes off with Necropotence in play and it is countered at the crucial moment and the threat is ended. The response is to refill the hand via Necropotence and start over again fresh the very next turn.



This is not explosiveness. This is simply more resiliency. While I fundamentally agree with you, let's not mix these two up.

I don't think Explosiveness is a problem we should be focusing about. It's resiliency, at least for the storm combo. A turn Delay in Necro probably is too much to be used in any deck needing explosive draw.

And I'm reasonably sure that Necro in B/x Aggro is not too broken. I once had 4 of them in my B/w Sui before future sight, and it was not too horrible. Don't forget that we also gained lots of cheap answers to necro, like Needle and co.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Storm combo does not have massive synergy with waiting a turn. Why wouldn't you rather accelerate into Meditate in combo than Necro? Meditate doesn't lose you storm count.

[undone]

I think the answer to my proposal (blah blah blah cards work well together blah blah blah) that you couldnt give me a list (or a rough one)

Necro aggro isnt broken, It just loses to burn out right (once necro is cast you F***ING 7 YOURSELF MORE THEN HALF THE TIME)

I see lots of mentioning of necro with tendrils.

Things of note.

1) This deck is insanely slow without dark rit necro T1.

2) This deck IS MONO BLACK (unable to deal with runed halo)

3) the deck practicaly punts to runed halo, needle and other artifacts and enchantments.

4) stifle exists now. Tempo thrash will stifle that +4 all day, so its a 1 for 1 bolting your face, now i swing for 6.

5) the power level has risen to the point that BBB to win the game automaticaly vs some decks (still lose to combo decks!!!) isnt good enough

6) the closest compairable card is humility. The differance is its 2WW to win the game vs decks not named combo.dec. (or the control mirror)

7) Combo, REAL combo like beltcher TES and so on. Trounce mono black combo.

8) if a UB version of this deck that is unfair exists show me it. Prove me wrong. Other wise im right about it stop talking in theory talk in reality.

9) B/X aggro and control aggro control and sui are not broken. They punt to decks running moutains and 12 bolt effects.

[FoolofaTook]

Storm combo does not have massive synergy with waiting a turn. Why wouldn't you rather accelerate into Meditate in combo than Necro? Meditate doesn't lose you storm count.

Waiting a turn means many different things. If you cast Necropotence turn 1 it means you have deployed an extraordinary draw and resiliency engine in one action. You've effectively given up an attack sequence on turn 1 that was fairly improbable anyway in order to make your turn 2 and turn 3 far more effective. Given the type of deck you are playing you quite possibly lead with a Duress before doing this to make the choices for the opponent even less palatable headed into the mid game which is now effectively turn 2 and turn 3.

If you spent the time to deploy Necropotence early on and then find yourself waiting a turn later in the game to act the odds are fairly good that if you didn't have Necropotence in play you'd be dead at that point anyway. That's the resiliency part.

The really successful storm combo turns (really most combo turns outside of Ichorid) generally start with a full or near full hand that then expends itself to create additional storm and additional threats in a limited opportunity space for the opponent to replenish his defenses and tries to overwhelm him before he can respond effectively. What Necropotence gives you is the opportunity to be at full hands duing the early turns before the opponent has set up his defenses and to actively attack continously until you succeed or fail.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

1) This deck is insanely slow without dark rit necro T1.How can that be true? There are plenty of ways to get three or more mana on turn one. Look at any storm deck besides High Tide.
2) This deck IS MONO BLACK (unable to deal with runed halo)Oh, that's how. There's no reason for it to be mono black. Necro's power can be seen by cramming it into TES or FT. I don't even think you need to cut cards. Sixty four card TES with 4 Necro.
3) the deck practicaly punts to runed halo, needle and other artifacts and enchantments.Seeing as how the deck wouldn't be mono black, there are plenty of answers to all of those.
4) stifle exists now. Tempo thrash will stifle that +4 all day, so its a 1 for 1 bolting your face, now i swing for 6.Right, storm decks never play any sort of discard for protection. That's why TES folds to a single Force.
6) the closest compairable card is humility. The differance is its 2WW to win the game vs decks not named combo.dec. (or the control mirror)What are you talking about? Decks can win though Humility or remove it. If you play Humility, you aren't going to draw seven cards every turn for no mana.
7) Combo, REAL combo like beltcher TES and so on. Trounce mono black combo.Again, there's no reason to for a Necro based combo to be mono black.

[C.P.]

I don't even think you need to cut cards. Sixty four card TES with 4 Necro.

I feel that you don;t need 4 necro maindeck. perhaps 2 in Main and 2 in board, as it is more of a recovery spell than storm engine.

[FoolofaTook]

I feel that you don;t need 4 necro maindeck. perhaps 2 in Main and 2 in board, as it is more of a recovery spell than storm engine.

Putting four in, maybe accompanied by three Unmask instead of Duress to give them a secondary purpose so that they didn't become a dead pull later on, would make them more likely to be part of the main engine.

Putting two in would make them more of a recovery mechanism as you say.

[emidln]

Dear People Complaining About Drawing Necros with Necro,

Stop being pussies. Draw you 10-12 cards with Necro and then pitch cards that aren't Misdirection, Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Tendrils of Agony, and/or Lotus Petal. When you're down to only those, pitch redundant Petals and Cabal Rituals. If you don't happen to have enough of these cards, you can probably justify keeping Ponder or something (especially if you need a 2nd blue card for a pitch counter). You now have 7 cards and 1-2 pitch counters up. On your next turn, proceed to bait your opponent into a counter war they can't win and then draw a ton of cards/win the game. In the case they only lose 8-14 life, draw some more cards and then win the game the following turn, repeating the discarding process as needed. Seriously, stop bitching about drawing extra copies of Necro you ungrateful cry babies.

Sincerely,

emidln

Edit:

A completely unoptimized, totally unbeaten Necro deck:

3 Island, 1 Swamp and 4 of the following:

Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Lotus Petal
Force of Will
Misdirection
Duress
Wipe Away
Tendrils of Agony
Necropotence
Ponder
Brainstorm
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Underground Sea

[FoolofaTook]

No Lim-Dul's Vault? I kind of figured that would be the failsafe to stop the deck from having to mull for Necropotence. It pitches to FoW, Misdirection and Unmask also.

[undone]

A completely unoptimized, totally untested Necro deck:

list

Fixed.

That list is fair even still that you claim is Brokezors.

Seriously its not like your going to land necro turn 1 even HALF of the time you have it in hand on turn 1.

Also mini tendrils.dec are usualy too slow to actualy get there in this current enviroment (and in all honesty thats what that is. storm 4-6 tendrils.dec.)

Things to note.

Playing agressively with necro gets you stifled (Blah blah blah I can force mis D blah blah blah) Well they can DAZE and Force. Thier counters are better then yours early, and if you notice. 1 resolved stifle. Or a countered necro means you lose. The deck looks alot like combo survival. If survival sticks, doesnt get stifled when you have no other dudes in hand, and the dude you get doesnt counter balanced, you probably win, if not you have a poor 2ndary game plan.

Counter balance still slows this WAY down. The deck STILL loses to turn 1 3 sphear + fast clock, the deck still has trouble with threshold and the deck has trouble, with you know NOT HAVEING T1 NECRO, also has large trouble with burn
T1 bolt you
"T1 land go"
T2 bolt bolt
T2 (the likely turn to play it) Necro draw X where X is missing in hand.
T3 bolt bolt bolt your at 1-3 or dead. If you drew 10 and fetched you would BE DEAD.

Also conveniently enough Cards being unbanned usualy create deck types that are good but not broken See replenish.

[emidln]

Fixed.

No, I've played 48 games with this against CB Thresh, Thrash, and Landstill. I've yet to lose with it. Perhaps it's because I'm simply better at magic than you are, but the deck feels broken. It's also 48-0. When I don't combo out asap I control the game far longer than a combo deck should. Out of those 48 games, I've assembled double Tendrils on turn 5 or before while playing at least 2 Duress/Force a full nine times.


That list is fair even still that you claim is Brokezors.

Seriously its not like your going to land necro turn 1 even HALF of the time you have it in hand on turn 1.

You don't seem to understand that you don't have to. Between Ponder, Brainstorm, and the control package, you can play it whenever you feel like. Against Thresh and Landstill, I've been landing it turn 3 with double counter/duress backup.


Also mini tendrils.dec are usualy too slow to actualy get there in this current enviroment (and in all honesty thats what that is. storm 4-6 tendrils.dec.)

It's storm 5-7 to double Tendrils. It's not too slow because your opponent doesn't get to resolve spells in the meantime.


Playing agressively with necro gets you stifled (Blah blah blah I can force mis D blah blah blah) Well they can DAZE and Force. Thier counters are better then yours early, and if you notice.

They're really not. And playing aggressively with necro draws you into Duresses too. Not only this, but it's not like you're mana bound when going off after Necro draws. I usually burn each turn for 2-3 anyway. I've yet to have an opponent actually resolve stifle to begin with and I've only played 20 games against CB Thresh. All of my other games were against Thrash and Landstill, both of which maindeck stifles. It's very important to know that you activate Necropotence aggressively, not run out Necropotence all willy nilly.


1 resolved stifle. Or a countered necro means you lose. The deck looks alot like combo survival. If survival sticks, doesnt get stifled when you have no other dudes in hand, and the dude you get doesnt counter balanced, you probably win, if not you have a poor 2ndary game plan.

Double Tendrils is a really strong secondary gameplan. Not just running out blind Necros like a noob is a another strong gameplan. As I've mentioned before, I don't run out Necro against control. It's dumb. I cantrip to get duresses and/or countermagic and then make my Necro resolve.


Counter balance still slows this WAY down. The deck STILL loses to turn 1 3 sphear + fast clock, the deck still has trouble with threshold and

No, it steam rolls Threshold. It outcounters, outdraws, and rather quickly kicks Threshold to the curve. CB is met by 4 Duress, 4 Force (backed by 4 Misd) and 4 Wipe Away. Trinisphere is met by Duress, Force, Wipe Away, and 4 basic lands. Losing to terrible permanents with that list would be your own fault (and a knock against your playskill), not the deck's.



the deck has trouble, with you know NOT HAVEING T1 NECRO, also has large trouble with burn
T1 bolt you
"T1 land go"
T2 bolt bolt
T2 (the likely turn to play it) Necro draw X where X is missing in hand.
T3 bolt bolt bolt your at 1-3 or dead. If you drew 10 and fetched you would BE DEAD.


Have you forgot about Misdirection and Duress? How about just casting mini Tendrils to put Burn out of range of actually killing you? It's almost impossible for someone who hasn't been declared brain dead to lose with 4 Tendrils storm combo to a Burn player.

I guess to sum it all up, it helps to have marginal talent or some sort of playskill when playing storm, even when the storm deck is a combo-control deck with 4 Necropotence.

[FoolofaTook]

Just thought of another reason that Necropotence is potentially broken in Legacy at the moment, although I'm not necessarily recommending the concept over the kind of ideas that Emidln put forward above.

Turn 1 Dark Ritual - Necropotence - draw 10 - sort out the good 4 - throw 6 in the graveyard.

Turn 2 Dark Ritual (or whatever other fast mana you have available in the cards you drew turn 1) - Duress - Tombstalker - removing the discards from turn 1 to accelerate him. Sit with your FoW and pitch in hand and see if the game is over or not.

Again, this is not necessarily broken and is clearly not as strong as the combo idea above because it ends in a creature, however it's also something that the meta doesn't have a lot of answers to. There's a reason that card access is controlled and parcelled out in very small increments, particularly early in the game.

[C.P.]

Just thought of another reason that Necropotence is broken in Legacy at the moment, although I'm not necessarily recommending the concept over the kind of ideas that Emidln put forward above.

Turn 1 Dark Ritual - Necropotence - draw 10 - sort out the good 4 - throw 6 in the graveyard.

Turn 2 Dark Ritual (or whatever other fast mana you have available in the cards you drew turn 1) - Duress - Tombstalker - removing the discards from turn 1 to accelerate him. Sit with your FoW and pitch in hand and see if the game is over or not.

Again, this is not necessarily broken and is clearly not as strong as the combo idea above because it ends in a creature, however it's also something that the meta doesn't have a lot of answers to. There's a reason that card access is controlled and parcelled out in very small increments, particularly early in the game.

RtFC.

[m03]

Turn 1 Dark Ritual - Necropotence - draw 10 - sort out the good 4 - throw 6 in the graveyard.

Turn 2 Dark Ritual (or whatever other fast mana you have available in the cards you drew turn 1) - Duress - Tombstalker - removing the discards from turn 1 to accelerate him. Sit with your FoW and pitch in hand and see if the game is over or not.


Aren't Necropotence discards RFG'd?

...

Oracle text: Skip your draw step.
Whenever you discard a card, remove that card in your graveyard from the game.
Pay 1 life: Remove the top card of your library from the game face down. Put that card into your hand at the end of your turn.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Zomg!

[FoolofaTook]

RtFC.

Sorry, been a long time since I used Necropotence and I should have refreshed my memories of the card by actually looking at it before posted.

In some ways the removal from game is much better for combo than having cards go to the graveyard. Now you have the ability to warehouse extras of a spell that is key to the deck but that you do not need two of right now as wish targets a few turns later.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sorry, been a long time since I used Necropotence and I should have refreshed my memories of the card by actually looking at it before posted.

In some ways the removal from game is much better for combo than having cards go to the graveyard. Now you have the ability to warehouse extras of a spell that is key to the deck but that you do not need two of right now as wish targets a few turns later.

You're stretching so bad right now that it's painful to watch.

Necropotence is a jumble of text because it was designed to be balanced, because they knew they were dealing with a powerful effect. That jumble of drawbacks is why the card was viewed as crap when it first came out. Now, obviously everyone overestimated how serious the drawbacks were back when, but this still isn't Skullclamp where the drawback is a bonus; Necro puts limitations of color and gameplan on a deck. You can't win this turn with it, but the longer it takes you to win the worse the card gets, generally speaking. It requires Dark Ritual or a heavily black manabase. It doesn't work with graveyard strategies. It might still be too powerful, but it's clearly not broken the way that Bargain or Will or Flash would be if they were unbanned again.

[FoolofaTook]

It might still be too powerful, but it's clearly not broken the way that Bargain or Will or Flash would be if they were unbanned again.

Well, and Mana Vault might be too powerful also and it's clearly not broken the way that Balance or Timewalk or Demonic Tutor would be if they were unbanned. See, I can make irrelevant comparisons also.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mana Vault is a Dark Ritual that can be cast off of Ancient Tomb. I think that in your desire to be loved you seem to have forgotten that an argument's merit depends upon it's quality, not simply it's form.

[FoolofaTook]

Mana Vault is a Dark Ritual that can be cast off of Ancient Tomb. I think that in your desire to be loved you seem to have forgotten that an argument's merit depends upon it's quality, not simply it's form.

Really? I never knew that Mana Vault produced black mana. How could I have missed that?

And you are right about an argument's merit depending on it's quality, not merely it's form. You say that over and over again and yet you seem to be just as prone to making poor arguments as most of the other posters on the site.

In fact, you almost NEVER make a positive contribution to a thread, instead bouncing in with some barbed comment designed to make it clear that you think the original poster is somehow defective. Done occasionally that's marginally acceptable. Done at the frequency that you do it it just leaves me feeling that you are somehow defective.

[C.P.]

Sorry, been a long time since I used Necropotence and I should have refreshed my memories of the card by actually looking at it before posted.


I think this sums up our problem here. Not to be disrespectful to FoolofaTook, but most peoeple who thinks the card is broken acts enven without carefully considering the card's fucntion in mordern legacy. I think IBA has point. Some people are just freaking out just beacuse of the name necro. And if it stays fair(in non-combo), it probably is not banworthy.

However, how sure could you be about necro not fuelling another combo deck? Ahtough I think you're underestimating the ability to refulleling the hand in the cost of BBB in storm, storm is not the only way of abusing it in a combo deck.

How about, say, UB Painter with necro? It could be just as broken as Necrotrix in old Extended. With Fetches and duals, plus with Rituals and artifact mana we have, BBB may not be too hard to get after all. All the peice in the combo costs coloress, which is also a big plus in inclusion of ritual in such deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In fact, you almost NEVER make a positive contribution to a thread, instead bouncing in with some barbed comment designed to make it clear that you think the original poster is somehow defective. Done occasionally that's marginally acceptable. Done at the frequency that you do it it just leaves me feeling that you are somehow defective.

This fills my heart with a warm glow. Thank you for that.