[Deck] 8 Ball (8 Sphere Affinity)

[Fons]

Updated 8-8-08
In the vial affinity thread there has been alot of talk about 8 sphere affinity. 8 Sphere affinity is a build of affinity that tries to abuse the spheres (sphere of resistance and thorn of amethyst) with the use of cards with affinity for artifacts. After seeing some basic lists I started playing with the deck and eventually came to this list:

3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
2 [MR] Glimmervoid
3 [DS] Blinkmoth Nexus

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [10E] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard
4 [MR] Frogmite

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [DS] AEther Vial

Updated List
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
2 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard
4 [MR] Frogmite

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [B] Winter Orb

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SH] Fling
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt



Matchups:

SI- 80-20 in our favor because they don't have an answear to the spheres.
Spring Tide- 70-30 FOW and Remand Helps but its not nearly enough.

(These are two decks that I own so its easy to test them.) This saturday I will be doing some MWS testing.

8-8-08 Played Against Meathooks 2-0

8-8-08 Played Against GWB Sui 2-1 (two spheres and a winter orb is a fun lock)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

SI- 80-20 in our favor because they don't have an answear to the spheres.
Spring Tide- 70-30 FOW and Remand Helps but its not nearly enough.You haven't tested this very much, have you? There's no way a deck without blue can boast and 80-20 match up against against SI. Did you test against someone who knows how to play SI? Were you always on the play? The same goes for Spring Tide.

[Fons]

I would just mull til i had a first or second turn sphere and hope they didn't go off turn 1.

[Willoe]

Why not add a chalice of the void while you're at it instead of that sucky Disciple? I really hate it, as you have no sacrifice outlet other than Arcbound Ravager. You will rarely have that many artifacts to make it dangerous for the opponent to activate deed.

Changes I'd make:

+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 City of Traitors

-4 Disciple of the Vault
-4 Vault of Whispers

This decreases your artifact count, but gives you needed explosiveness. It's actually the same; Adding one more mana every time you tap - or increasing affinity count and tapping for one. Oh, and City doesn't get smacked by deed.

EDIT: For people who might like to ask, then no, it isn't antisynergistic to run chalice where it should be played at 1 in the same deck as Æther Vial. Really, it hurts so small parts of your deck. 4/60 cards. That is 6,67% of your deck. I really think that adding chalice is worth the effort. Chalice helps against combo, thresh, and bla. bla. bla...

[THEchubbymuffin]

This decreases your artifact count

Actually it doesn't.

[Willoe]

You're right, it doesn't. What I really meant was that it decreases your artifact land count. And with two artifact lands in play, your affinity virtually goes down by 2, if you can follow me.

[Fons]

The only problem with cutting disciple is that it adds random wins to the deck.
I would also have to cut aether vial.

[purlqg]

I've been testing this deck to. And with the limited testing i've been doing I came to the conclusion that this deck absolutely needs Aether Vial.
Vial helps you play around your own spheres + it dodges counters.
I also really believe that this deck lacks wasteland. I've been able to keep players from playing spells with double sphere followed by wasteland.

I would probably do something like this:
-3 Blinkmoth Nexus
-2 glimmervoid

+4 Wasteland
+1 Ancient Tomb (turn one ravager/sphere/thorn seems more plausible with this in your hand).

I'll begin testing this idea is so awesome it absolutely blew me away when I saw it mentioned here on the source. An Affinity deck with disruption for combo before sideboarding.

And post board you would have cards like chalice/needle/crypt.. Seems pretty strong to me.

[Fons]

What if we take ornithopter out for winter orb?

Glimmervoid definitly has to stay, due to the fact that goblins is a bad matchup so engineered plague is a good friend and more blue lands the better.

Sample List

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
2 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard
4 [MR] Frogmite

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [B] Winter Orb

[Isamaru]

What happens when the opponent plays a Tarmogoyf, or isn't playing a control deck, but rather an aggro deck...

I'd make the mainboard focus on beating control and combo (meaning also Dark Confidant mainboard over Thoughtcast), and I'd try to have the sideboard transform you into a variation of Affinity that can compete/stomp normal aggro and fast decks. I'd also like to see 1-2x City of Traitors, or 3-4x Lotus Petal to ensure a turn 1 Sphere/Thorn/Orb.

How does this do against 3sphere stompy decks?

[Barook]

What if we take ornithopter out for winter orb?

Considering how Fetchland-heavy the meta is, wouldn't be combining Winter Orb + Ankh of Mishra (plus some Thorns/Spheres) along with ways to deal fast damage (e.g. Disciple) fun?

[Nihil Credo]

The problem is finding room for the stuff that actually hits the red zone.

[Fons]

Engineered Plague Fixes the Goblin Matchup.
3sphere builds in theory shouldn't be hard due to the fact that do not play alot of lands so wasteland should really help there. Making Chrome Mox actually cost mana will also hurt them.

Propaganda + Winter Orb might be a good way to stall aggro until we can either fly over them or ping them to death.

Fling could also be in the board to fix aggro just change the MD Citidels to Great Furnaces.

Meekstone could also help as none of our creatures are big until plating equips them.

Its feels weird to suggest Meekstone and Propaganda in affinity.

Is the Creature count to low now?
Is this turning into to much of a control/lock deck?

[Clark Kant]

Is this turning into to much of a control/lock deck?

Is that really a bad thing? Aggro Affinity hasn't exactly taken legacy by storm. The more controllish the better I would think.

Amp up the number of artifact control cards as high as feasible (yes do run Winter Orb), and run strong affinity based creatures, and you're golden.

[Melman]

Alright Ive been playing around with this deck for a while as kind of a pet project, and this is the list I've settled on for now.

// Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Glimmervoid

// Creatures
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Somber Hoverguard
1 Myr Enforcer

// Spells
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb

// Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Propaganda
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague

As Clark said, I think that the more controlish form this deck has taken is a good thing. Aggro Affinity is just not as fast as goblins without as good card advantage, and doesn't play enough control to make up for it. The above list plays basically overpowered one-sided control cards.
Chalice is absolutely godly in the meta right now, its just hard to find a home for because most of the time, if a deck can play it effectively for 1, the deck is too slow and ends up being bad. Winter orb, pretty much same thing; it's not an insta-gg like Chalice is in some matchups but it slows them down rediculously. With affinity, your abundance of 2lands, and being able to spend 3 or 4 mana making a 2378469285/2 flyer (hovergaurd or thopter with a plating), It doesnt hurt you much.
Basically the deck is a stax-esque, except it's able to switch rolls instantly and swing for lethal damage in a couple turns. The typical game is spending turns 1-4 or 5 playing lock peices and slowing your opponent down, then spend a few turns beating their faces in with flyers / huge ravagers / whatever. However, the deck obviously has its problems. It has a tough time dealing with more than one resolved early beater. If you can slow them down so that they're only swinging with a goyf or a few goblins or whatever by turn 4 or 5 or so, Its no big deal because you 're going to kill them first. But if they get a turn 2 goyf followed by another or an abundance of removal for your fatties you end up losing the race due to no direct removal. It almost makes me want to play something like Propoganda MD, but I dont think that's the right choice.
Some people may o_0 at the random enforcer or the 7 2lands. Basically, I ended up with a flex slot MD, and I stuck enforcer in there because late game when you're in topdeck mode, you're looking for threats that you can actually land with all the spheres out. Enforcer has filled this roll pretty nicely. Also, 4 Tombs just hurts too much and too often I have lost because of taking 8 or so damage off them and barely not being able to 'stabilize' (not really what this deck does, but as accurate a word as I can come up with).
Also, as to the lack of Disciple and Vial. All too often, in this list, Vial is completely dead as you sit with a hovergaurd and frogmite in your hand. And you love playing chalice for 1. Its cool in the old vial affinity list and in the more aggressive 8sphere lists but it just doesn't fit here. And Disciple... ah disciple. He's a tricky dude, and does randomly win you games. But all too often, he's a completely dead draw, or ends up just being win more. Every card in this deck serves an explicit purpose and I just cant find room for such an inconsistent card.
Basically, I honestly think this deck has potential, but it has some problems that need smoothing out, whether it be by tuning or skill in playing, both of which I will be working on. So, any help is appreciated ^_^

[4eak]

What role is this deck trying to play?

This deck appears to be attempting to be an aggro workshop deck. Obviously, it wants to disrupt like stax, but it wants to win early.

I have a few questions:

Why not just play stax? After all, this deck really lacks the game it needs against an aggro-heavy deck.

Is it really worth having a stax deck without abusing 3-sphere and CoW?

Is it really possible to build an accelerated mana-base without bastardizing it by removing the heart and soul of affinity: the artifact lands? How do you keep the early artifact count high enough to compensate for a lack of artifact lands?

What non-creature spells must be cut and why?

Here is what I like about the idea:

I find this deck can break the symmetry of winter orb and spheres in ways that other decks simply can't, including stax. If this deck is to amount to anything different than watered-down stax, then it needs to break the symmetry of orb and spheres.

First, for the winter orb, affinity is one of the few decks that can almost fully function off 1 or 2 lands for the entire game. Orb is game breaking against control decks, often timewalking you several times. But, it doesn't do enough against a deck like goblins (a bad matchup). Propaganda is a good answer though! Also, should relic barrier be considered for end step pwnage?

Sphere plays a fundamental role in universally slowing all decks, and because of the affinity mechanic, this deck is in a position to break the symmetry. To make the most use of this we need to run a more stax-like manabase to even effectively get them into play, but also run enough artifacts to abuse affinity mechanics (including the artifact land base).

Also, we have to remember this deck can't be normal affinity. Aggressive cards that would normally fit the archetype simply don't fit the role of this deck. Drop disruption, break the symmetry by casting undercosted creatures, and win before they can recover. This is what stax-affinity deck must do.

Sadly, non-creature spells are hurt by all 8 spheres. In aggro-affinity, non-creature spells generally exist to make affinity an aggro-combo deck with huge consistency and explosive comboliciousness. This isn't an aggro-combo deck, and so we should definitely question the inclusion of spells that aren't pushing the prison or breaking the symmetry of the prison. Some cards just can't make the cut in this deck that could be included in a normal affinity deck, such as:

Disciple
Thoughtcast
Shrapnel Blast
Fling
Dark Confidant
Blinkmoth Nexus

In addition, while 8 spheres and 4 orbs are automatic includes, the inclusion of Chalice is a difficult choice. Chalice is excellent in combo matches and fairly amazing set at 1 against some decks. Chalice at 2 is unacceptable for this deck. Chalice is a great card in normal stax, but there are several 1-casters that really could belong in the deck that have little or no synergy with chalice. Choosing whether to run chalice will change this deck more than any other card. You don't run 3-sphere, and therefore the curve is very different, so think carefully. Stax can run Chalice because it runs a mana-curve that is very extreme and almost untouched by 3-sphere, however, this deck cannot do the same.

Without chalice, I would probably run this deck:


Lock Components// 12x
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Winter Orb

Beaters// 20x
4 Ornithopter --0cc, major affinity factor, flyer. Lackey. Better than Hoverguard.
4 Arcbound Worker --1cc artifacts are a must. High synergy.
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer --Abuses asymmetry very well and this deck needs a clock that isn't based on comboing out---this is your juggernaught.

Others// 7x
4 Aether Vial --plays well against control, and 1cc slot
3 Cranial Plating --takes up the 2cc slot, is a piece that you drop after sphere, lacks synergy in this deck, but is very powerful (even without double black to support instant equip)

Mana-Base// 21x
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
3 Glimmervoid -- exists to support a sideboard
4 Wasteland -- adds to the mana-denial element; this card is a must have in any stax variant.


SB:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pithing Needle
3 Leyline of the Void


The aggro matchup needs the most work. 4 Ghostly Prison replaces ToR's very nicely. StP is simply the best removal that I can think of using to answer Goblins early enough. Jitte is also an option, but it is very mana-intensive.

Overall, the deck needs to deny tempo by destabilizing the mana-base and creating mana inefficiency against low-CC curves. What can make the deck different from White Stax is that it abuses the affinity mechanic to have a much faster clock at the cost of a less consistent prison.

peace,
4eak

[Melman]

What role is this deck trying to play? This deck appears to be attempting to be an aggro workshop deck. Obviously, it wants to disrupt like stax, but it wants to win early.

Exactly


I have a few questions: Why not just play stax? After all, this deck really lacks the game it needs against an aggro-heavy deck.
Because stax is simply too slow in the current meta. It's a control deck that cannot fully control the game, and so when it succeeds in slowing down your opponent, it often loses before it can do anything about it due to the abundance of speed in the meta.


Is it really possible to build an accelerated mana-base without bastardizing it by removing the heart and soul of affinity: the artifact lands? How do you keep the early artifact count high enough to compensate for a lack of artifact lands?
This deck plays an abundance of artifact lands. We don't need to bastardize it, there's really no reason to.


**A bunch of very intelligent and accurate observations**


Sadly, non-creature spells are hurt by all 8 spheres, etc etc... Some cards just can't make the cut, Such as...
....
thoughtcast
Thoughtcast has affinity. You stated yourself that this is one of the key mechanics that breaks spheres. Its a mini recall, and this deck lacks any other kind of draw. You can't play confidant any more, obviously; I'd say thoughtcast is pretty crucial.


In addition, while 8 spheres and 4 orbs are automatic includes, the inclusion of Chalice is a difficult choice. Chalice is excellent in combo matches and fairly amazing set at 1 against some decks. Chalice at 2 is unacceptable for this deck. Chalice is a great card in normal stax, but there are several 1-casters that really could belong in the deck that have little or no synergy with chalice. Choosing whether to run chalice will change this deck more than any other card. You don't run 3-sphere, and therefore the curve is very different, so think carefully. Stax can run Chalice because it runs a mana-curve that is very extreme and almost untouched by 3-sphere, however, this deck cannot do the same.
You forget that in the current meta, there are VERY few decks, if any at all, that are untouched by a chalice for 0 or for 1. Yes, this deck cannot play chalice for 2. However, you included very questionable 1-drops in place of chalice, which I will get to later. I cannot see playing this deck in it's more controlling roll without chalice. It just flat out wins against a lot of combo, greatly debilitates most control / aggro control, turn 1 chalice for 1 destroys a lot of aggro. It's such a good card in the current meta and this deck can break it.

As for your list. You run Worker and Vial. Vial is just weak in this deck now. You run a grand total of of 12 creatures you can use it with, and they all have a different mana cost. It is a bad card in this deck and there is no excuse for running it. Control can't worry about countering them, because you're dropping spheres and chalice, and if they dont counter those
, they dont have the mana / resources to do anything about your creatures.
And worker is just flat out bad. If you look at my list, there is not a single creature that isn't free, a flyer, or ravager. Worker doesn't fit any of these. He's just a weak 1/1, if he dies he gives you a 1/3 thopter or a double pump on a ravager. Both of these are simply too slow.

And finally, I think 4 plating is a must. More than 1 is amazing, and I don't see how it's anti-synergistic with the deck at all. It gets affected by orbs, sure, but your WHOLE DECK is artifacts. How can you not play this guy; he says "2 (or 3 or 4) mana: Take care of me in 1 turn or I win". Seems good.

[overseer1234]

Here's my take on the deck:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst

4x Cranial Plating

4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Ornithopter
4x Somber Hoverguard

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Glimmervoid
4x Seat of the Synod

4x Thoughtcast

I play 4 hooverguards, thoughtcast, enforcers and mites becaus I wanted to see how good this antisymmetry actually is when taken into the red zone.

I've only had a little trouble with casting the hooverguards and thoughtcasts because of the lack of blue mana sources, but even so they've been really great. Other than that I really like the chalice in here, Chalice on 1 is very strong against the meta, and since I don't play spells that cost 1 it really is asymmetric :)

The darksteel citadel and blinkmoth nexus can be easily replaced by the lands that give me some other colors depending what I'll be playing on my sideboard.

However an other problem that I've had is the damage I sometimes take from ancient tomb, and this really doesn't help the agro matchup...

[fetchesbasiclands]

Man lands + Plating seem good in a Prisonish affinity,no?

[overseer1234]

Yep, hence the 4 blinkmoth nexus in my list :D

[Fons]

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
2 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Ancient Den

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [AQ] Ornithopter
4 [MR] Myr Enforcer

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [B] Winter Orb

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Hanna's Custody
SB: 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [LG] In the Eye of Chaos
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

I am starting to think UW Affinity is the right way to go. I am glad to see the deck is getting more attention. I am planning on testing this list next as it seems strong all around. I am starting to wonder if ghostly prison should just go MD instead of myr enforcer. I am not sure if anyone else is testing somber hoverguard but he really is a bomb that usually drops for one, he also carries plating like a champ plus he is actually big enough to end games because of his size. Removing Disciple and vial is definitly taking this deck away from being normal affinity. Hanna's Custody seems like a perfect inclusion for the board.

anyways I figure I would post the must includes for the deck.

4 Wasteland
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Winter Orb
4 Frogmite
4 Cranial Plating

Without the above cards the deck would fall flat.

While nexus seems really good in the deck i tested it and found it to be only ok.

[Melman]

It seems like this thread is falling victim to "Ignore everyone's responses and post decklist after decklist" syndrome. Please, read through before responding. It makes the thread seem more intellegent and allows it to develop faster, both of which are necessary if we want this deck to grow.
Fons, I have questions about your list. First off, no City? That cuts your turn 1 spheres down by half. And you only need a few lands to function. If anything, cut tombs before citys (basically, dont cut either)
If you read the responses in the thread you will see that multiple pelple have been playing Hovergaurd. And yes, I agree, he is a bomb and I like him alot.
As for wastes, I kind of like them but kind of dont. They are obviously good disruption, but they aren't mana fixers, artifact lands, or 2lands. I dont know if the disruption is worth giving those up.
I also disagree with 4 winter orbs. I never, ever like to run a 4-of that is completely dead in multiples, and orb is one of these. Plus, it's fairly dead early on (until turn 4, maybe 3), so I really dont think 4 is necessary. Maybe though, Ill play with it some more.
Have you tested Chalice? The deck plays 0 1cc cards. Seems like it would be good.

[Willoe]

I'm just starting to wonder: This deck leans more and more towards stax or even 5/3. Is this a good evolution? It roughly plays a lot of cards that stax also do, and with this base now, it's simply the kill condition that is different.

The positive thing about this deck is that it can transform from prison so combo-aggro depending on the opening hand. Drop your hand and start slamming with a Plated Ravager on turn 3 is awesome, but so is disruption of your opponent. Just wondering if this hybrid is any better than actual affinity or actual stax. It still folds to deed - a deed for 4 kills almost every single permanent of yours, and it is pretty hard to recover from that, especially when you have no outs to it, not even FoW or stifle like Affownity has.

[Melman]

I think its a good evolution. It takes stax and gives it a less stable mana base in exchange for the possibility to facerape your opponents early. In the current meta, stax and 5/3 are very difficult to be effective with because of their inherantly slow game. A single swinging goyf often means gg to them. This deck can play like stax, then plop down a flyer, equip a plating, and beat face.
And Deed hurts. We do have an out, Needle, which I have been testing MD. There are very few decks its dead against, but I dont like running a 1cc card in my list (which runs chalice), and its subpar somtimes. Maybe just stick to siding 4 in against deed / EE.

[Fons]

winter orb in testing has been a huge target for hate so 4 of seems great as it is so powerful.

Deed does seem to be an issue.

The reason im not playing city is because of its downside, with winter orb its nice to be able to drop a land whenever i can.

I also am now playing ghostly prison in the main instead of myr enforcer

[i-never-smile]

In the past Extended season, Springleaf Drum has been a crucial card in speeding up Affinity by almost a full turn, meanwhile allowing amazing color-fixing to the deck. I wonder if the 8ball-type of Affinity decks would be better running the Drum as well, since it allows for broken Ornithopter starts, it fixes all colors while counting as an artifact, and it breaks symmetry with Winter Orb. In my opinion, it looks like the ideal card for this deck, and it has proven itself extremely vital in other non-vial Affinity builds. So has anybody tested this card here, yet? If so, why isn't it seeing any play?

[Melman]

I dont run it for a few reasons. One, as I have said, I dont like running 1cc cards in lists running chalice unless they are crucial. Two, if you'll look back a page I think this was said: This deck rarely wants to be tapping creatures for one mana. You dont play any excess creatures, save a thopter that isn't plated or hasn't been sacced to a ravager. And lastly, games with this deck last a little bit, and Springleaf drum is an absolutely dead late game draw.
That said, It does have potential to accelerate the deck. What would you suggest cutting? I can't really find anything.

[Fons]

against deed we can play karmic justice or aura of silence in the board.

[Willoe]

Karmic Justice would be a pretty good solution. But that isn't a way of recovering after a boom effect. It's just like resetting the boar entirely, with maybe you having a darksteel citadel and an ancient tomb in play. You are most likely in topdeck mode when a deed for 4 is blown. LandStill or whatever deck you are playing against has often a hand full of cards, so they will recover faster by playing factory, island, standstill.

A meddling Mage in an UW build could be a solution to Deed. Who knows?

I think you're pretty right with the UW build:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Den
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid

4 Frogmite
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Myr Enforcer

4 Cranial Plating

4 Thoughtcast
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void

I prefer explosiveness over Wasteland. Resolving an early chalice wil se them back in tempo. Right now, our only blue card in the mainboard is thoughtcast. I've thought about some more flyers: Has Somber Hoverguard ever been tested?

The sideboard can include Meddling Mage, Hannah's Custody, Karmic Justice etc. I'm not fond of splashing black for Disciple of the Vault. Really, it isn't that good. And it's dissynergistic with Chalice. Our only 1cc card is arcbound worker. I might chance that for a Somber Hoverguard. But then, I have to cut one more Darksteel Citadel for one more Glimmervoid. And maybe a City of Traitors.

I'll test later.

To sum it up, it's important to know that this is brown chalice aggro that also packs even more disruption pieces. Therefore, we need to stay as brown as we can, only splashing colors for very important pieces.

[overseer1234]

I play somber hoverguard in the arcbound worker slot (worker doesn't really do anything special now days...)

And I don't think playing 2 colors is good for this deck's consistency, given that we have a pretty hard time getting the right colors.

Here's my current list:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst

4x Cranial Plating

4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
4x Ornithopter
4x Somber Hoverguard

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Island
4x Seat of the Synod

4x Thoughtcast

Sideboard:
4x Pithing Needle
3x Winter Orb
4x Propaganda (if we splash black this could become Engineered Plague)
4x Tormod's Crypt (if we splash black, this would become Leyline of the Void)

This list works pretty well for me right now, the hoverguards really are bombs, the com down easily, have a pretty good body vs manacost ratio (given you play thorn's, chalice and stuf). But I think playing more than 1 color will really hurt the consistency of the deck.

[Willoe]

Just played against Aggro Loam. I got savage beating. I haven't played affinity before in Legacy, but is that true for all other affinity variants? I mean, they at highest four cards in the 1cc slot, a lot of mana to negate the sphere effects, and a wishable shattering spree.

I've looked at the monoblue list you posted there. Really, it looks a lot better. I don't get why you play blinkmoth nexi over factories. Is it because they fly, so that we can equip plating on them post-wrath?

---

Stifles in the sideboard could also do against pernicious deed.

[Fons]

Just played against Aggro Loam. I got savage beating. I haven't played affinity before in Legacy, but is that true for all other affinity variants? I mean, they at highest four cards in the 1cc slot, a lot of mana to negate the sphere effects, and a wishable shattering spree.

I've looked at the monoblue list you posted there. Really, it looks a lot better. I don't get why you play blinkmoth nexi over factories. Is it because they fly, so that we can equip plating on them post-wrath?

---

Stifles in the sideboard could also do against pernicious deed.

I have also been having a difficult time with aggro loam but for a different reason, wastelock hurts so bad. Winter Orb is helpful against them, I've been sideing tormods crypt against them to deal with wastelock.

For shattering spree play hanna's custody. I really think you need to play UW.

[overseer1234]

Just played against Aggro Loam. I got savage beating. I haven't played affinity before in Legacy, but is that true for all other affinity variants? I mean, they at highest four cards in the 1cc slot, a lot of mana to negate the sphere effects, and a wishable shattering spree.

Yeah, I expect that matchup to be a real pain in the but. Therefor bring in 4 propaganda, 3 winter orb 4 crypts and 4 needle's for erm... wahtever (I'm realy bad with deciding what to side out...)

Wait... Is that my entire board?...


I don't get why you play blinkmoth nexi over factories. Is it because they fly, so that we can equip plating on them post-wrath?

I love it when people give a perfect answer for they're own questions.




Stifles in the sideboard could also do against pernicious deed.

That's what the needle's are for.

[i-never-smile]

I dont run it for a few reasons. One, as I have said, I dont like running 1cc cards in lists running chalice unless they are crucial. Two, if you'll look back a page I think this was said: This deck rarely wants to be tapping creatures for one mana. You dont play any excess creatures, save a thopter that isn't plated or hasn't been sacced to a ravager. And lastly, games with this deck last a little bit, and Springleaf drum is an absolutely dead late game draw.
That said, It does have potential to accelerate the deck. What would you suggest cutting? I can't really find anything.

That's a good point: Chalice is a problem for drum. So in a chalice version, it would either be dropped pre-chalice or become useless. That's not too good. However, in a non-chalice build, it should be golden. I would probably put Workers in the build with Drums, since it gives you more early dudes to tap for mana to explode. I don't actually think it's a bad idea to use your guys to tap for mana early on, considering this version of Affinity is meant to be prison first, beatdown second. Here's a simple list to point out the idea:

4 Ornithopter
3 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer
3 Somber Hoverguard

4 Springleaf Drum
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Manlands
4 Ancient Tomb

I feel like, since there just isn't one definitive list for this deck in this thread, posting one would explain how to go about Drum's slot. I probably would try to sneak a couple of Winter Orbs into here, too, but I wanted to keep things simple.

And as for Drum sucking late game--who cares? Sac it to your ravager. This card will give you immensely better color consistency and help explode early.

[Willoe]

You possibly "explode", "ejaculate" or whatever people calls it. I really don't care about explosiveness unless you play a real game-breaking card like Arc-Slogger or Blood Moon. But getting a Frogmite more often down on turn 1... I'd rather play Lotus Petal as it synergizes with Chalice of the Void.

And it count affinity, and as we all know, 2 petals can cast a frogmite, as well as 5 artifacts, tapped lands and a lotus petal can cast an enforcer.

overseer1234: You're absolutely right, answering your own question is so nice xD

I see the point with your sideboard. Is it any good? I mean, stifle's pretty versatile, after all.

[overseer1234]

overseer1234: You're absolutely right, answering your own question is so nice xD

I see the point with your sideboard. Is it any good? I mean, stifle's pretty versatile, after all.

I haven't tested the deck enough to find that out (I'm playing it as of yesterday and that only on MWS), but 1 needle can keep ALL your opponent's Deed's in check, stifle only helps for one.

Stifle does help against storm combo but.. I'd like to see them go off with chalice and sphere's gumming up the field (unless they play rebuild but... mèh)

What stifle WOULD be good for is if you fear a lot of shatering spree's, but then I'd just play another deck...

And wish+spree does take some time with orb and sphere's out, and wastelock doesn't kick in all to soon to when you're in that state, and if it does they won't be playing all to much other stuff so your creatures still beat face.

I mean, when you have our (semi)-lock pieces on the tabel they'll have to stop playing things if they want to cast they're spree, which mean you can just go and smash face :)

Most of this is still just in theory, but for the moment it does look this way on paper.

[Willoe]

I'm really considering to take this deck into my metagame. Cheap, powerful and pretty "rogue-ish". Not many decks have that many answers for it. It seems like your sideboard is pretty good, how about Orb of Dreams for even more locking? Or is it antiproductive or too slow?

[Fons]

orb of dreams costs over the magic amount :2: and is slow and hurts wasteland and winter orb.

[Melman]

Alright, figured Id write a super-mini primer to get the discussion moving again because I see unrealized potential here. I haven't made a great many changes from before, but I simply don't know what direction to move in so I figure if I explain what Im thinking and seeing maybe other people will see potential and we can make this a truly solid deck.I've been testing this deck for a bit now. Its an awesome deck, and pretty much everyone I play against says so. However, it has issues that need to be smoothed out if its going to be tier 1, or 1.5 (Id say its currently around mid tier 2).

First, my current list, for reference:

// Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
3 Glimmervoid

// Creatures
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Somber Hoverguard
1 Myr Enforcer

// Spells
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb

// Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Propaganda
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague

What the deck is: Aggro Control. 8 spheres, 4 Chalice, and Orb make up the lock, while the virtually free creatures and crazy boom potential of ravager and plating make up the aggro. You play as many lock pieces as you can early on, then some creatures and fly over / Clear through whatever creatures they may have managed to play.

What the deck isn't: Stax. Stax's game plan is to completely lock down your opponent to the point where they are helpless and you're free to leisurely bring them to 0. This deck doesn't play any smokestack or tabernacle or geddon effects, so it can't stop the opponent, merely slow them way way down.

Card Choices:
3 Tombs / 4 Traitors: 2cc lands are pretty crucial because they allow for turn one spheres and chalice. If I didn't run 4 chalice I may be inclined to tune them down, but as it is they are absolutely necessary because all too often "Turn 1 chalice for 1, Turn 2 Sphere, Turn 3 Orb / Beater+Plating" is gg (And it isn't that rare).

Artifact Lands: Its affinity, duh. 3 vault because you need arti lands for so many things and I play some black in the SB, may cut to 2 and run 4 citadel for more deed resiliancy but I dont want to be screwed out of early plagues so I dunno

Glimmervoid: Mana fixing. If I cut the B from the SB these will become Islands. having more Artifact lands would be wonderful, but I ran out >_<.

Frogmite: Free guy, comes out turn 2 for 0 most of the time, keeps an early confidant / small goyf / lackey from being too much of a pain. Kinda trashy late game but he's more consistent than Enforcer so he gets the slot for now.

Thopter: Free artifact that wins games with plating. For those that dont like him, test with him and count how many games you win because you can swing for 12 flying damage with him.

Ravager: No explanation needed

Hoverguard: Again, wins games cause he's got wings. He's not an artifact, which can hurt in the case of ravagers dying, but he's a 3/2 flyer for 1 so imo its worth it.

Enforcer: Filling the flex slot for now, cause drawing him is pretty much always good mid/late game. I may want to run more but can't find room atm (maybe another for a frog?)

Spheres: The deck's namesake. There isn't a single deck out there who's day they don't ruin. Affinity makes them one sided, they're artifacts for plating and ravager. It's what the deck is built around.

Plating: 1, Equip: Equipped creature wins the game if not immediately killed.

Thoughtcast: Mini recall. Im not so sure about this guy, because he's not a threat, artifact, or lock piece, but he obviously draws them, so if you have the U to spare and the artifacts already on the board to support him it's obviously strict card advantage, and its a draw spell that doesn't get owned by chalice on 1.

Chalice: Some people don't run this guy, I cant imagine why not. Look at the top decks and count how many 1cc spells there are in all of them. It ends games against storm and burn, cripples thresh and control, and at the very least is a free artifact in multiples.

Winter Orb: The deck runs completely fine off of one or two lands so this is yet another one sided lock piece. I only run three cause I hate seeing more than one, and often the opponent can't afford to target it with removal because they're about to get raped by a creature or need to cast their 1cc spells.

Cards not included (In paragraph form): Disciple, because he costs 1 and because he only really synergises with one other card in the deck. He does nothing against deed, you want to be playing 2cc spells turn one. He just doesn't fit in. There's only one enforcer cause it seems like he would be too slow early, although testing shows that this is only sometimes true, so Im not sure here. No springleaf drum because Thopter is practically the same thing except it's a win condition too, and because drum costs 1, and you want to be swinging. Worker because he's trash in pretty much every way Sure it has small synergy with ravager, but it has dissynergy with Chalice, Sphere, Hoverguard, and good decks. And finally, no Manlands because the mana base is unstable as is, and cutting artifact lands for manlands is a bad idea because it strictly slows down the deck.

Problems:
The deck's main problem currently is that it can't deal with early threats. You creatures are artifact creatures, so one counter is +2 on goyf, and nobody in your deck survives a big goyf (unless you can afford to deed yourself for Ravager) so it's just a race if he hits. I don't know quite how to solve this one. People suggest Swords, but that's another color and costs 1 and doesn't fit with the deck's strategy. Other more cynical people suggest splashing green for my own goyfs, but again, that doesn't fit too well with other cards in the deck.
Also, quite obviously, deed is a problem, EE to a lesser extent. It pretty much resets your board. Now, this isn't gg, because as you get more experienced with the deck you learn exactly how much to extend and how much to hold against decks packing sweepers, but it really does hose the deck pretty bad. As for answers, Some people have suggested Karmic Justice and Stifle, but Justice would mean another color, and it's slow and only a partial answer, and Stifle costs 1 and is somewhat situational, and you don't need it for the combo matchup. Maybe we can just accept it and bend over when one hits the board, but I'm pretty sure something needs to be done.
Combo is no problem because we play so many cards that own them if they land early, control isn't bad because you play so many must-counters.

Very quick matchup run through: Gobs is about 50-50 pre board, you're in trouble if they're on the play and land a turn 1 vial, but other than that you're mostly set because Spheres and Chalice and flyers mess with them. Post board you get Plague and they get grips, so Id say it stays about the same. Thresh has been about 50/50 for me as well, because spheres and chalice are so good against them and they have no answers to flyers, but an early swinging goyf hurts. Any storm combo is very favorable. Stiflenaught is favorable because resolved chalice for 1 is gg, and spheres slow them down so much, so most of the time you kill them the turn they manage to get a naught down or the turn after, and they play no sweepers. Burn is stupid easy. Eva Green is probably slightly unfavorable because they can rape your hand and they have early threats. however, their curve is very very low so Spheres and chalice hit them hard.

Quick list of ideas that I need to develop further:
Does the basic premise of the deck work or should it be shifted?
More Aggresive with Enforcers and Disciples, More defensive with Swords and more Orbs?
Does Ensnaring Bridge solve anything (what with instant Plating equips and Hoverguard being a 3/2)?
Is the Black Splash worth it / is a different splash better?
Manlands?

If you took the time to read this, thank you; I'll continue to work on it regardless =P

[morgan_coke]

If you just want to kill 'goyf and not have a 1cc spell, I'd say go with terror or Expunge. both do it, bot dodge chalice@1

[Melman]

Oh I know there's options that kill Goyf I just don't know if there's room (Or as I put it in my post, "fit with the deck's strategy") or if they're necessary.

[thefreakaccident]

Or... you could play smother?

[Fons]

// Lands
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
3 Glimmervoid

// Creatures
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Somber Hoverguard
1 Myr Enforcer

// Spells
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb

// Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Propaganda
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague


I do like the list however the single myr enforcer could be replaced by something better. I really think that 16 creatures is enough for us.

Have you had any issues with glimmervoid?

here is my list for reference

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [MR] Vault of Whispers

// Creatures
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Somber Hoverguard
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [AQ] Ornithopter

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [B] Winter Orb
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Hanna's Custody
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage

The major difference would be the color choice yours being UB and mine being UW.

I think that your build is probably better against combo however do we really need to be better against combo?

Maindeck 4 ghostly prison + 4 Winter Orbs gives me a better aggro matchup than you which is where we are hurting right now.

Wasteland vs city of traitors is probably going to be a personal preferance that we won't ever agree on.

The main advantage of running white over black is the better sideboard options.

The other option might be splashing green for krosan grip and goyf.

[Melman]

Ok quick update, after more testing, I simply cannot see Propaganda / Ghostly Prison MD. It is nuts sometimes, but its so much more situational and not much better than Chalice, and its not an artifact and costs more than 2. I tried it multiple times now in multiple lists because people keep putting it MD but it just is bad.
Winter orb is god but multiples pretty much always suck, I want to put in a 4th but cant bring myself to do it.
Hanna's Custody is subpar. pretty much everything you're afraid of has nothing to do with targeting (Deed, big goyfs, EE), with the possible exception of shattering spree. Too situational imo and too expensive.

[overseer1234]

Here's the list I'm currently testing:

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Winter Orb

4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Frogmite
4x Myr Enforcer
3x Ornithopter
4x Somber Hoverguard

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Blinkmoth Nexus
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Island Land
4x Seat of the Synod

4x Cranial Plating
2x Thoughtcast

Sideboard

4x Pithing Needle (against deed, EE,....)
4x Tormod’s Crypt (Ichorid/terravore)
4x Propaganda (agro since they usually outrace us...)
3x Echoing Truth (tokens, annoying big bitches,...)

4 thopters were to much, as were 4 orbs so they got cut and replaced by 2 thoughtcasts, which were cut earlier because I've found them to be underwhelming. (mabe just some bad luck...)

The combo matchup for this deck is really of the chart (8 pheres+chalice?? yeah, you just try to go off...), and anything with control in its name roles over to Winter Orb (maybe play a 4th one on the side for that matchup). Agro on the other hand can be a real pain. Propaganda helps but its still hard an should be improved.

Ive also had some problems regarding the life loss of ancient tomb, has anyone else also experienced this? Maybe I'll cut the 2 thoughtcast's for 2 city of traitors to get a turn 1 sphere or chalice more often. Or just maybe I'll try and play jitte.

Another thing is that we don't have any answers to threats that are on the board.
I know the same goes for Dragon Stompy, but 1) they're creatures just steamroll almost anything, 2) that's why they run jitte+slogger and pyro on the side)

[Melman]

I do like the list. It's kind of a fusion of mine and Fons's.
Cutting down to three thopters may have been a good move. They are generally nice, provide a flying kill, and a free artifact for affinity, but Probably aren't strong enough on their own to be a 4-of.
Combo is amazing yeah, control is great if you get a more stax-oriented hand (or mull for one).
Ancient tomb life loss can be a pain in any list playing 4 of them. If you look at mine you'll see I play 3 for precisely that reason; I also run cities instead of Nexus. How is the only 4 2lands working out? In my experience turn 1 sphere or chalice is just game ending and amazing for this deck so i could never see running less than at least 6
And yeah, the deck inherantly lacks direct removal. However, as you noted, DS doesn't either and it's obviously not crucial for this deck, and to make up for the lack of individual creature power that DS has, this deck packs even more insane disruption and the ability to basically combo out (aka play cranial plating on a flyer) and kill in 1 or 2 turns if they don't immediatly take care of it, which often they can't because there's chalice for 1 / their lands are tapped to play their threat / too many spheres out / their removal is shriekmaw / whatever.

So the real thing we have to do now is figure out how to deal with aggro, because the deck basically has everything else on lock. From what I've been seeing, alot of it has to do with deck experience. Ive seen my aggro matchups get consistantly better as I've played the deck, without any list changes. knowing when to play lock pieces / which to play versus when to switch rolls and throw some damage at them is alot trickier than it would first appear. There is probably some things that can be done though.

Oh and also, somewhat trivial thing, any chance this deck can be moved to Established Decks? I have done alot of testing and done multiple mini-writeups now, the deck has proven itsself to those who have tested it, the only thing really lacking is some big tourny results, which it says aren't required. If this is better suited to a PM, delete it Im sorry ^_^

[overseer1234]

How is the only 4 2lands working out? In my experience turn 1 sphere or chalice is just game ending and amazing for this deck so i could never see running less than at least 6

I'm going testing that soon, but I don't want to cut mu blinkmoth's (they realy DO win me games...), we can't cut blue sources, and cutting Darksteel citadell sounds like we would be playing to few artifacs lands (we only play 8 right now...), and it won't make Deed any better for us...

Cutting threat's for them seems like bad mojo, and there's no way I'm cutting down on platings.

Maybe I'll test it with 22 land (cut thoughtcast) and go like 3-3 with tomb/city?

Ohw, and I'm going to test this deck against my testing gauntllet, so expect some more detailed matchup analysis's soon.

[Dark_Cynic87]

This may seem like a bad idea initially, but I think this would work if we added in 4x Vault of Whispers. With all the cards my list puts in the yard, I feel comfortable adding in 2x Tombstalkers. They seem to work REALLY well through the spheres. You can just keep removing to pay for their added costs (that's the ruling I was given, it could be wrong, but if it's not it works well).

I think black needs to go back in because it seems way worse with the exclusion of Disciple. That card is just to broken to ignore. It's what people started playing Ravager Affinity for in the first place clear back in the t2 legal days (lol, can't believe I just said that). The singleton Myr Enforcer could be dropped for it. The Delve ability is just too nasty with this to not test, you guys. I really miss Shrapnel Blast, but perhaps that's just nostalgia getting in the way...I get that we have to sacrifice some cards for the sake of the theme of the list and the amount of cards we have to work with, but just the same...

Pce,

--DC

[overseer1234]

I think black needs to go back in because it seems way worse with the exclusion of Disciple. That card is just to broken to ignore. It's what people started playing Ravager Affinity for in the first place clear back in the t2 legal days


The problem is that desciple doesn't do anything on it's own and makes chalice on 1 less one sided.

Tombstalker looks great on paper, but how many times will you be able to get 2 black sources to reliably cast it? I'll test it bu I've got a feeling it's not going to stay in my list to long.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think chalice is a bad idea anyway. I never liked it in any affinity build MD'ed. I like Vial, vial helps a CRAP-TON with your one-drops, keeps them cheap/free and uncounterable, and COMPLETELY unaffected by the spheres. And also without as much reliance on a color; paired with those facts, it is and always remain an artifact. By the way, Vial also helps a LOT against CounterTop.

2x black sources isn't that difficult, although I run this: 1x Glimmervoid, 2x City of Brass. The pain is getting to be a bit too much, so I'm thinking of dropping a City for a Gemstone Mine. Paired with a set of Vaults, that should be enough.

Melman: Remember that 'Thopter is a great lackey-wall. See lots of goblins, it may be a wise choice to leave it in as a 4-of...

[overseer1234]

I think chalice is a bad idea anyway. I never liked it in any affinity build MD'ed. I like Vial, vial helps a CRAP-TON with your one-drops,

We don't play 1drops.



Keeps them cheap/free and uncounterable. By the way, Vial also helps a LOT against CounterTop.

Against decks with counterbalance, chalice+sphere's+orbs kill them, and anything with control in it's name rolls over to winter orb anyway...

Also notice that our creature curve goes like this: 0-2-4-5-7



2x black sources isn't that difficult, although I run this: 1x Glimmervoid, 2x City of Brass. The pain is getting to be a bit too much, so I'm thinking of dropping a City for a Gemstone Mine. Paired with a set of Vaults, that should be enough.

So that's 7 sources in you whole deck? I don't see how that's enough to get double black fast enough in a reliable way



Melman: Remember that 'Thopter is a great lackey-wall. See lots of goblins, it may be a wise choice to leave it in as a 4-of...

I have to agree on this, but I think it's a meta call if you play 4, since goblins aren't played to often.

[Fons]

my list has changed
-4 Ghostly Prison
+1 island
+3 SDT

[Melman]

Chalice is amazing. I am not cutting it from the list. I may drop down to 3, because multiples aren't amazing, but chalice for 1 is a hit against every single deck in existance pretty much and chalice for 0 or 1 is straight up gg aginst some.
I agree with overseer in this case about tombstalker. getting bb would be a huge pain, and you only have alot of cards in your graveyard you can burn through if you've had your board cleared most of the time, in which case a single stalker isn't going to save you.
And yes, thopter is a great lacky wall. That's probably the main reason he's still here (that and being able to put ravager counters on a flyer is amazing). I dont want to cut him but we'll see.
And to Overseer. Im sure blinkmoth occasionally wins games. The problem with this statement, though, is that city won't "Win you a game" in the sense that nexus will (Oh I just killed my opponent with nexus it won the game), but it will improve every single matchup. Dropping turn 1 sphere or chalice on 1 isn't game over, but it's damn close, even if you don't notice it right away.
Oh. And for everybody that keeps mentioning vial. It would be difficult to make it any more obvious that you haven't read a single post in the entire thread and just clicked on a topic that had affinity in its name and were like "OMG AFFINITY MUST HAVE VIAL LOLLOLOL OH AND PLAY TARMOGOYF TOO". It is horrible in this deck. Note Overseer's explanation of why.

[Fons]

Alright so over the past few days I decided to test 3 SDT and they seem to be great as they let you get exactly what you want and it's a 1cc artifact.

Is there any other colorless LD?

[overseer1234]

SDT in a deck without fetch or other shuffle effects sounds underwhelming, especially with a W-Orb out.

Not even mentioning the fact that we usually play chalice of the void on 1.

As for colorless land destruction (not that I support the idea though...) only Arc of Blight commes to mind and I doubt that's going to cut it.

You could always play crucible+wasteland, but in that case I would just go and play staxx, or 5/3...

[Melman]

Ok quick update. Ive been playing around with the whole affinity stax thing a little more, and Ive come up with a pretty different idea. It's similar in concept, which is why I'm posting it here, but it uses very different cards. First, the list:

// Lands / Acceleration
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
3 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Mox Diamond

// Creatures / Kill
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Somber Hoverguard
3 Lodestone Myr
1 Broodstar
4 Cranial Plating

// Lock
4 Winter Orb
3 Tangle Wire
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Propaganda
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Sideboard
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Defense Grid
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Pithing Needle

I dropped the thorns for trinispheres, fit in tangle wires and propaganda (because orb + Prop is gg for alot of decks) and greatly changed the creature base. It plays a little more stax-ish, with fewer speedy kills, although it can still do them. Because of the loss of thopters I put in Nexus. Also, the curve for this deck is alot more stable than the old one. Chalice at 1 is still ridiculous.

The deck is really fun to play. I get bored playing angel stax and this one is just like "ha you can't do anything and Im beating your face in with a 26/13 broodstar". The best feeling in the world.

Feedback Feedback Feedback!!! and questions if you have any.

[Fons]

Ok quick update. Ive been playing around with the whole affinity stax thing a little more, and Ive come up with a pretty different idea. It's similar in concept, which is why I'm posting it here, but it uses very different cards. First, the list:

// Lands / Acceleration
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
3 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Mox Diamond

// Creatures / Kill
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Somber Hoverguard
3 Lodestone Myr
1 Broodstar
4 Cranial Plating

// Lock
4 Winter Orb
3 Tangle Wire
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Propaganda
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

// Sideboard
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Defense Grid
3 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Pithing Needle

I dropped the thorns for trinispheres, fit in tangle wires and propaganda (because orb + Prop is gg for alot of decks) and greatly changed the creature base. It plays a little more stax-ish, with fewer speedy kills, although it can still do them. Because of the loss of thopters I put in Nexus. Also, the curve for this deck is alot more stable than the old one. Chalice at 1 is still ridiculous.

The deck is really fun to play. I get bored playing angel stax and this one is just like "ha you can't do anything and Im beating your face in with a 26/13 broodstar". The best feeling in the world.

Feedback Feedback Feedback!!! and questions if you have any.

I like the addition of broodstar however i think lodestone myr is terrible. I would try to fit wasteland and crucible in for more brokenness. I'm going to continue to develop 8 ball.

[Dark_Cynic87]

And for everybody that keeps mentioning vial. It would be difficult to make it any more obvious that you haven't read a single post in the entire thread and just clicked on a topic that had affinity in its name and were like "OMG AFFINITY MUST HAVE VIAL LOLLOLOL OH AND PLAY TARMOGOYF TOO". It is horrible in this deck. Note Overseer's explanation of why.

I was actually in on this "8-ball affinity" idea from it's beginning over in the original affinity thread. I have been testing and helping this list since it's start. It may be horrible in YOUR version, but Vial allows me to run 3x Chalice and Disciple, a staple that wins games. More than chalice does. One of the last posts here was an Affinistax list. If that's the direction this list is going, you should HEAVILY consider Vial as a 3-of and Disciple as a 4-of. Saccing off an artifact land every turn can be a 5-turn time-clock with a set of disciples. Something most stax lists don't have is a fast clock, and you COULD. In addition, counterspells weep to Vial. In a control build, where Spheres and Thorns make Forces cost mana, the addition of Vial will make their Forces almost useless.

I realize that's one list out of all of you guys playing this list almost exclusively, but Vial has been a staple for so long that I think it deserves another look. You may have to take it in a slightly different direction, but I think your hate is going into overkill mode. Threat density seems more important. 7 one-drops doesn't seem like a major overhaul to the list. Besides, it's not like Chalice @ 1 won't get smashed relatively quickly by your opponent. Academy Ruins, was it considered?

And no one that I'm aware of mentioned Goyf, so to make your objection a valid one, you should add goyf... :rolleyes:

And BrooooooooOOOOOODSTAR is funny. It might even work...

I'm tired, I'll have more a little later on.

Pce,

--DC

[ssilver]

***Spoiler***









Master of Etherium 2U

Artifact Creature - Vedalken Wizard
Master of Etherium's power and toughness are each equal to the number of artifacts you control.
Other artifact creatures you control get +1/+1.
*/*
Say what??? Artifact Creature... boosts other artifact creatures...
Looks like we have a winner for 8 Ball
BTW he's a rare.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Erm...No Casting Cost? Kinda hard to declare it a winner if you don't know how much he costs to play...

[Melman]

Costs 2U. Looks good to me, Better than Broodstar at least. No evasion which kind of sucks but meh.

[Dark_Cynic87]

That will be good in here. If it NEEDS evasion then just put in Whispersilk Cloak instead of the Cranial Plating, as Broodstar + This = not needing something that pumps creatures to high heavens. It also eliminates the fear of StP on your big evasive creatures anyway. That, in my opinion, would be much better. It's even still castable and equippable after Winter Orb because of Mox Diamond.

[Eldariel]

How well does the deck actually do with only 16 threats? Heck, some seem to only run 14. Is the lockdown engine strong enough to protect the threats from meaningful removal? Do you really find, removing Aether Vial is the correct choice? My experience was that Aether Vial is really a necessity to aggressively take advantage of the lockdown pieces. Furthermore, Aether Vial fixes the manabase, which needs all the fixing it can get especially when you start dropping the number of colored mana sources under 8.

The original intent of the deck was to create an aggressive tempo-based artifact deck that simply fights off the usually troublesome disruption with some stax-components that are cast between dropping threats and winning (Aether Vial being a huge enabler in this regard). These builds seem more and more like Stax - is this an indicator you should just be playing Stax and forget about the Affinity-part? Isn't the ability to win fast and create resilient threats worth it? Stax tries to capitalize on mana disruption by destroying all opponents' lands, Affinity's plan is to kill the opponent while they're struggling with the mana disruption. Are 16- threats really enough to perform this consistently?


Also, Affinity really wants around 40 artifacts for the mechanic, and in that regard, Sphere cannot count since while it's pretty one-sided, it still doesn't reduce the cost of the affinity critters.

[Fons]

as of right now I think your right the deck has to have aether vial, however im putting the deck aside until shards is released.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Jeez. I preach Vial for a month straight, but one outsider on the conversation comes in and mentions it and gets results. Damn. :eek:

Anyway, how it happens is irrelevent, only that this deck gets going in the right direction.

If you go the Tangle Wire way, wouldn't Academy Ruins work well? I honestly don't know why it's not been tested yet. Gets you back EVERYTHING from your deck. Lands, creatures, lock pieces. All of it.

I've said this before, but if you include a one-drop, Vial and Disciple are the two most important ones, bar none. I also think Ornithopter now relevent only in the Goblin Matchup, and therefore useful only in the SB if necessary at all. In the goblin matchup, you have just as much chance hitting a Disciple as they do a Goblin Lackey game one. Game 2, you would then have 8x blockers, 4 of which will never fail nor die. Needles would be an answer to Vial. Side out Vials for Needles. Chalice can come out as well in the Goblin Matchup as it's useless (Don't argue this point, if you've played stax or any stompy build, you know this to be true).

I'm still working on a build, I'll post a final one soon. I know I've said this before, but I've been busy (full-time student, part-time employed dad and going through a pretty nasty divorce which is causing me to not be able to sleep, AND I'm moving). Be patient with me, I swear it's worth it.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT::: Maybe now Tombstalker can also become part of the conversation in a serious fashion. My list includes it, perhaps you will like it.

[ssilver]

Tombstalker's really relavent after they WOG and you have nothing... and also when you have half a million spheres on the table.

[Eldariel]

Eh, Tombstalker is too tough on your mana. You barely play enough coloured sources to play out cards with one coloured mana. You'll have many stranded Tombstalkers if you decide to include them - same goes for Broodstar.

Dark_Cynic87: I find the use of the word "outsider" amusing here. I'm guilty as charged as far as the Affinity-thread goes, but I did build the starting point for this particular variant, so not THAT far out.

[Dark_Cynic87]

well, better amusement rather than offense. My mistake. Clearly by "outsider" I mean one who isn't amongst the angst of the development on a serious level.

On the matter of Tombstalker, I don't see why the land couldn't change to accomodate one of the MOST FEARED creatures in the FORMAT. Why not make it more black? Clearly Tombstalker has synergy with the Spheres and with Trini, not to mention DotV is awesome here. I think it's got a spot.

21
4x Tangle Wire
4x Sphere of Resistance
3x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Trinisphere
4x Winter Orb
3x Cranial Plating

18
4x Disciple
4x Ravager
3x Tombstalker
4x Frogmite
3x Somber Hoverguard

21
3x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
2x Underground Sea
1x Glimmervoid
3x Darksteel Citadel
1x Academy Ruins

Meh, that didn't turn out right. It seems like maybe I'm more into the synergy between Spheres and Stalkers than I am between affinity and such. Maybe I should remove myself from the discussion to work on the Tombstalker+Orb scenario as I'm getting nowhere with this other than in your way...LMK what you think of the list, at least. I hate Chalice, especially when I am such a fan of Disciple...

[Eldariel]

You'd need over 14 black sources for it to work out. Springleaf Drum, Tomb of Urami, a bunch of UG Seas at the expense of arti lands, etc. could do it, but the price is too high. If we still ran all the Chromatic Spheres, mayhap, but 1) We cannot do that (because of their dissynergy with the balls) and 2) It can't be used with Aether Vial, which is a huge penalty. Really, the initial lists had Dark Confidant and it wasn't at all bad with the Spheres disrupting the opponent while Confidant accrues card advantage. Stalker really doesn't work with the artifact-based plan overall as you can't play N Vaults of Whispers.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Meh, that didn't turn out right. It seems like maybe I'm more into the synergy between Spheres and Stalkers than I am between affinity and such. Maybe I should remove myself from the discussion to work on the Tombstalker+Orb scenario as I'm getting nowhere with this other than in your way...

Hence my last statement. While I disagree with your claim as to how many black sources is needed, I think that Dark Confidant has a lot more value overall than most cards we've proposed so far.

Pce,

--DC

[Pltnmngl]

Jeez. I preach Vial for a month straight, but one outsider on the conversation comes in and mentions it and gets results. Damn. :eek:

Umm...do you know who Eldariel is? If I recall correctly, he is the first person to actually post the concept of 8-sphere affinity. Hell, I'd call him the father of the deck. We should all be very appreciative. He took time to actually put us back on the right track.

For the sake of remembering our roots, here's the list Eldariel gave me over 5 months ago:

// Lands
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
3 [MR] Glimmervoid
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod

// Creatures
3 [MR] Somber Hoverguard
4 [MR] Frogmite
4 [DS] Arcbound Worker
4 [DS] Arcbound Ravager
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault

// Spells
4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
3 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague


On another note, the inclusion of M.O.E.? Yay or nay?

[Fons]

Umm I think this deck got much better
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130106

Name Unknown 1U
Artifact Creature - Human Wizard? (Common)
Artifact spells cost you less to play.
1/1?

[4eak]

Yeah, it looks very nice in this deck.


My new list of 8-ball will probably look like this:

Balls: 12

4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Winter Orb

Creatures: 20

4x Disciple of the Vault
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Artifact Medallion
4x Frogmite

Stuff: 9

4x Aether Vial
2x Springleaf Drum
3x Cranial Plating

Lands: 19

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Glimmervoid


This isn't affinity, btw. It runs one affinity card. Plays like a very, very aggressive version of aggro-stax with a lot less prison.

peace,
4eak

[4eak]

Sonofa....Shards <3 teh Balls.dec

Ethersworn Canonist
{1}{W}
Artifact Creature -- Human Cleric
2/2
Each player who has played a nonartifact spell this turn can't play additional nonartifact spells.

Erayo might be cool again, I don't know.

So many nice cards for 8-ball in this set. Will this deck become good? Maybe. This is like...16 Balls to work with. In a metagame that might revolve around the new AdN TPS builds, this card is a smack in the face.

Trying this build right now:

Balls: 16

4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Winter Orb
4x Ethersworn Canonist

Creatures: 19

3x Disciple of the Vault
4x Arcbound Worker
4x Arcbound Ravager
4x Artifact Medallion
4x Frogmite

Stuff: 6

4x Aether Vial
2x Springleaf Drum

Lands: 19

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Vault of Whispers
4x Seat of the Synod
4x Ancient Den
4x Glimmervoid


peace,
4eak

[PunkRocker1134]

Is there any way to fit Master of Etherium in there. It can be used to apply massive amounts of pressure on an opponent and only costs three. Since our spheres only stall for time, this guy can really make this more aggro controlish, and it says fuck Tarmogoyf nine times out of ten. This guy might be better in AfFOWnity.

Also, how much are you guys missing Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. In my limited testing awhile ago they seemed to add an explosive edge allowing a turn 1 Sphere to apply pressure on Combo right away. Plus, a turn one sphere pretty much makes a turn 1 kill impossible and allows us to apply pressure and lay down spheres to win. 4eak your list does run Ancient Tomb but how about adding City of traitors, and maybe cutting Disciple of the Vault. It's probably a dumb move but its worth a try.

I would think maybe trying out the following cuts:

Experimental Disciple of the Vaultless build:
-3 Vault of Whisper
+3 City of Traitors

-3 Disciple of the Vault
+3 Master of Etherium

These cuts would make the manabase more stable, since it would be only two colors and add an explosive edge with City of traitors. Also Master of Etherium helps apply more pressure. I would exactly suggest this, but it is something to try out. Might be worth a try.

[4eak]

4eak your list does run Ancient Tomb but how about adding City of traitors, and maybe cutting Disciple of the Vault. It's probably a dumb move but its worth a try.


Hey, get out of my head!!...that's what I'm doing as we speak.

I never liked Disciple in 8-sphere (and you can know that by my post on the first page of this thread). I think swapping Disciple for MoE is the correct call.

City of Traitors is a difficult choice. We have 8-spheres that we must have first turn if possible, while Winter Orb and E-Canon can wait. I honestly just don't like City of Traitors if I don't have Crucible of Worlds and 3-sphere in the deck.

I mourn the loss of actual "affinity" effects in this deck. Seriously, this deck isn't using the affinity mechanic, and that makes me wonder if we should even use artifact lands to begin with.


peace,
4eak

[Dark_Cynic87]

This went from affinity control to...brown.dec. Artifact control. Why not just play 5/3 and add in Master of Etherium? You could call it 9/8 Ball.

You people are about as mad as hatters. Honestly. However, as hats go, I tip mine to you.

I'm officially out of this thread, as it no longer interests me in the direction it's going. Just the same, happy building!

Pce,

--DC

[Fons]

Well right now Vial at 2 looks great, we could add confident or epochrasite.

[luckme10]

Since Lodestone Golem has been just spoiled, I think this deck deserves another chance.



Lodestone Golem Casting Cost: 4
Artifact Creature - Golem

Nonartifact spells cost 1 more to cast.

[luckme10]

So I keep coming back here... but i really like some of the new toys we got for blue stax. I think this is the most likely place where cards such as Grand Architect and Vedalken Certarch along with tangle wire could end up, twisting this deck into even more of a controlling stax variant. Don't really like the disynergy with 3sphere though. Ultimately, running these creatures may allow us to to do something other stax lists dream about: FoW.