[Deck] The Unstoppable Dreadnought

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Not sure if this deserves its own thread, I originally had something like this in the dreaded fish thread, but I realized that it is not really much like fish. Anyways, I tested this out at my local tournament (small, only 4 rounds and top 4 playoffs) and took 2nd place, which surprised me since it was just an experiment.

The purpose of the deck is to get Dreadnought out fast and protect it. I realized when playing my white splash version of Dreadstill that had several backup win conditions, I found that whenever I was using them, the game was long and grueling, so I decided to try to build a deck that focuses solely on killing with dreadnought.

Here's the list:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Mother of Runes
3 Meddling Mage

3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
1 Trickbind
3 Brainstorm
2 Enlightened Tutor

3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Alright, now I know some of those numbers look weird, but like I said, I was experimenting. I had a few extras of cards in the sideboard (trickbind/mother of Runes/vision charm) that I boarded in based on what kind of removal I was facing. The rest of the sideboard was propagandas, crypts,swords and some one-of tutorables like serenity and pithing needle. I know only 2 tutors, 2 vision charm and 3 brainstorm seems odd, but this seemed to bring the most optimal results.

Here is a breakdown of the tournament:

Round 1: Stax: Loss 1-2
This is a bad match up. Lots of troublesome permanents. I got game one via early dreadnought + counters. Game 2 I was trying to resolve serenity, but trinisphere was out and he kept me off of three mana via crucible + wasteland along with suppression field. He would then Armageddon/ravages of war if I managed to get out 2 basics. Game three was interesting. I had the dreadnought pieces in hand along with serenity, so I played the serenity to try to go for the win quickly. He played Armageddon on his turn, so we scooped up our lands and put them in the graveyard, then on my turn we scooped up the rest of the board, leaving nothing left. I frowned at my landless hand and passed turn. 35 turns later (this is an exaggeration) my life hit zero from a sideways angel.

Round 2 Random green/white deck: Win 2-0
This was kind of funny actually. The deck had random creatures along with lots of mainboard artifact and enchantment hate. There were mainboard naturalizes and disenchants along with artifact destroying creatures. Fortunately, Spell Snare and Mother of Runes did there jobs well and I easily won.

Round 3 Belcher: Win 2-0
I discovered that this deck is storm combo's worst nightmare. I have 5 mainboard stifle effects, Force, Daze, Spell Snare, Countertop, and a tutorable Engineered Explosives mainboard. Postboard, I have propagandas, pithing needle, and another trickbind. My opponent didn't really stand a chance. I almost felt bad, but then I realized that I despise combo and I was happy that my build doesn't have to worry about it. (well, Ichorid and Breakfast would be another story).

Round 4 Countersliver: Win 2-0
My opponent got mana screwed, and my wastelands and stifles didn't help. Neither did turn 3 dreadnoughts. These games were over quickly.

Semifinals: Death and Taxes: Win 2-1
Game one, Mother of Runes + Mother of Runes + dreadnought = win. Game 2 he got me through flying avengers, stonecloakers and flickerwisps. Game three was the first game to last longer than five minutes since round 1. I didn't see any dreadnought pieces until around turn 20 or so (not exaggerating). However, I had countertop out, and his hand was all 2 cost. I also had out 2 Mages naming O-ring and Stonecloaker. My hand consisted of Force, Spell Snare and 2 Daze most of the game, so I pretty much had the game on total lockdown, but it was the first time I had any problems getting dreadnought out.

Finals: Swan Thresh : Loss 1-2
My favorite opponent to play, I have yet to beat this deck, but I always have great games, usually involving many counterwars, typically over counterbalance. Game one fast dreadnought won since force of will was his only answer. Now he boards in Grips and Pyroblasts. Game 2, I had the ability to play and early dreadnought backed by force, but there was no mage in sight. I attempted to cast Dreadnought and hoped his only answer would be a counter, but alas, he had grip. He then forced my Mother of Runes and his mongoose went the distance. Game three I had to mulligan for the first time the whole tournament. My hand of six had no dreadnought, no counters, no counterbalance, but E. Explosives and Academy Ruins along with a lot of land. I decided to try it. He resolves a turn 1 top followed by a turn 2 counterbalance (seemed disappointed that there was no counter war over it). I then spent the next several turns attempting to cast the E. Explosives through his counterbalance by spending 3-4 mana on it, but each time he had a hard counter for it. Ruins kept bringing them back, and I made several attempts to play it but this was a very slow process, and alas, it never resolved and I died to an army of geese and goyfs. Great games though, and I don't regret playing them out instead of splitting.

Overall I am impressed with this deck and I don't know if it belongs in any other thread. Countertop, spell snare, vision charm, mother of runes, E. Explosives and meddling mage provide enough protection for dreadnought so that it is not dangerous to use him as the only threat. The main problem is that E. Explosives and Oblivion Ring are in there for things like chalice at 1, counterbalance, and trinisphere, but tutoring for them is difficult if not impossible with those out. I really don't want to run trinket mage because it is too slow and I want to keep the curve low, but I don't know how else to deal with those troublesome permanents other than running more E. Explosives.

[Willoe]

The list seems unfocused. To get what you need, you'll need to add 1 more Brainstorm. It really helps.

If you can, you should up the counter count (:laugh:) to 12, while cutting the Enlightened Tutors. Really, they aren't that sexy, and you will very often get what you need. If you really need to play a tutor, play Trinket Mage. It gets everything that you need except Counterbalance. And Counterbalance is a card that should magically pop up by itself. That sounds wierd, but am I the only one who experiences a counterbalance from every deck that plays it almost every game?

If you cut tutor, I'm afraid that you will also have to cut the oblivion ring. But whatever, with the E-tutor, you will rarely see it, so why bother with only 1?

3 wastelands? Add 1 more
-1 Island + 1 Wasteland

VIsion Charm does really nothing. Cut it for 1 Trickbind and a Mom.

A mainboarded Meddling Mage doesn't sound good. You shouldn't be afraid of cards when you can counter them or opposing creatures when you can rape them with the Dreadnought. -3 Meddling +3 Trinket

All these changes are in my opinion only. I've tinkered with a similar deck, and my list looks somewhat similar to what I'm suggesting that your list should look like, and my list was performing pretty good.

But on the other hand, because of your performance, I'll take a closer look on your design and test it.

[BreathWeapon]

Enlightened Tutor and Vision Charm increase the deck's fundamental turn to four, it's kind of a big deal against Goblin decks that have 4 Tin-Street Hooligan, 4 Warren Weirding and SB Krosan Grips, not to mention Vision Charm protects Dreadnoughts from removal and Time Walks Dreadnoughts from board removal.

No point in splashing white and not using Enlightened Tutor, if you use Trinket Mage and Trickbind, you shift the paradigm towards control-combo instead of combo-control.

Mother of Runes is garbage, BTW, just get CB down.

[stalkerzero]

I'm fairly certain that you play at the same shop as I do, and if so I really look forward to playing your deck. I have a feeling that I may be running one of few storm combo decks that will make you really work for a win.

I really do think Vision Charm is good here (I've always been a fan of the card).

The Mother of Runes seems to be the weakest card in the deck to me. But I haven't played against it or play tested it so I may be very wrong.

[Ch@os]

Looks like the Chinese/Japanese lists:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18767

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18572

[raharu]

Look at the sig. Srsly, Mother of Runes is one of the best (if not the absolute best) white creature printed. It's a wall that helps you stabilize against agro (or just buys time until you get an active Dreadnought), it's a mini-Counterbalance against removal, it's reach (although with trample that's not as relevant, but look through the Goblins thread and see where people are still keeping Fanatic because of the times where they're one damage short of the win), it's just obscenely strong and multi-facated, and to say it's weak is wrong. Personally I think -1 E. Tutor, +1 Mother of Runes is a mandatory list edit.

[Kuma]

I'm the Death and Taxes player from his report, and I have to say the reason he beat me was Mother of Runes. I've always been a fan of the card, and to say it's a terrible card is just plain wrong. It's a house vs. just about every aggro deck in he format and it doesn't suck against Thresh either.

I gave him flack at the tournament for Vision Charm, because it hasn't worked out in my own Dreadnought lists, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that his "protect Dreadnought at all costs" strategy is actually pretty good. Just watch out for Extirpate and you'll be fine.

EDIT: Get the fourth Brainstorm in there somehow. Seriously.

[stalkerzero]

I'm the Death and Taxes player from his report, and I have to say the reason he beat me was Mother of Runes. I've always been a fan of the card, and to say it's a terrible card is just plain wrong. It's a house vs. just about every aggro deck in he format and it doesn't suck against Thresh either.

I gave him flack at the tournament for Vision Charm, because it hasn't worked out in my own Dreadnought lists, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that his "protect Dreadnought at all costs" strategy is actually pretty good. Just watch out for Extirpate and you'll be fine.

EDIT: Get the fourth Brainstorm in there somehow. Seriously.

I definitely would never say Mother of Runes was a bad card. I just thought it looked like the weakest (or a possible sideboard switch) card in the deck.

But, I'm also the guy who plays a bad combo deck every week just to make 2-2. :wink:

[Rood]

I would do something like

-3 Mother of Runes
+1 Counterbalance
+1 Meddling Mage
+1 Spell Snare

Also Vision Charm is pretty bad. Consider adding extra Trickbinds in that slot if anything. It's immensely powerful against Control and will help you with your Stifle/Waste strategy way more then Charm.

-2 Charm
+1 Brainstorm (PLEASE!)
+1 Trickbind

[thefreakaccident]

Vision charm is only good in a more dedicated build... if you focus your list towards a more aggressive build, you could support it... otherwise, it will be dead weight.

[Ch@os]

He protects the nought with Mother/Charm when you kick these your nought will simply die to removal.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Wow, this got a lot of replies quickly. Anyway, I know I need to focus the list more. Here is what I am thinking:

I don't care what anybody says, Mother of Ruins is staying. She protects dreadnought and chump blocks all day. For just 1 white mana. At worst, she draws the opponents removal out. The only thing I am debating about her is whether or not to add a fourth one.

Trinket Mage is looking pretty good. I didn't like its slowness before, but I think it could work here. It tutors up dreadnought and top, but more importantly, it grabs E. Explosives through counterbalance and chalice @ 1, something Enlightened tutor couldn't do. It is also a 3 cc for counterbalance.

Meddling Mage, although useful, is mainly for naming Grip. However, he is necessary for said purpose, as I have no other way to stop it (other than being REALLY lucky with counterbalance). Since not too many people play grips mainboard, I will probably put MM in the sideboard. He is really only useful mainboard against decks that run swords as their only removal. Most decks will just kill him with the card that I didn't name.

Vision Charm is staying. I just need to work out the best vision charm/trickbind ratio. Vision Charm is better versus heavy removal, and trickbind is better versus control and mana sensitive decks. I think 8 "get dreadnought into play" cards is good, but I might actually want more. Keep in mind that Dreadnought is pretty much the only way to win, and I don't want to not stifle a fetch just because I want to play dreadnought. Stifle, Trickbind and Vision Charm all serve a good purpose besides getting dreadnought in play and all of them pitch to force, so I am not worried about running too many. I think I will have a few trickbinds in the board for control or for decks where stifle effects are more useful (deeds, storm, wastelands, etc.)

Somewhere in these modifications I will add the 4th brainstorm. Cutting one was kind of a last minute decision when I was trying to get spell snares in there (which are amazing btw).

So, I was thinking something like this:

-3 Meddling Mage (move to sideboard)
-1 Oblivion Ring
-2 Enlightened Tutor

+ 1 Brainstorm (yeah!)
+ 3 Trinket Mage
+ 1 Vision Charm
+1 Counterbalance/Mom/Spell Snare (any of these would be good, but I am leaning toward counterbalance since I won't be able to tutor for it anymore and I almost always want one).

[Nihil Credo]

You could keep relying on Enlightened Tutor and replace Meddling Mage with Dark Confidant: this would make all your creatures demand immediate spot removal. Bobby&Mommy is a combo I've been itching to play again with anyway.

(New manabase:

8 fetches
3 UB dual
3 UW dual
3 Wasteland
3 basics)

[Illissius]

While I'm something of a fan of Mother of Runes relative, it seems, to most people, what I don't like about it here is that if you try to use it to protect a Dreadnought, your opponent is going to EE for 1.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

While I'm something of a fan of Mother of Runes relative, it seems, to most people, what I don't like about it here is that if you try to use it to protect a Dreadnought, your opponent is going to EE for 1.

Thats why I like to run extra ways to play Dreadnought, so that I can use them for their other purposes as well, in this case stifling/trickbinding EE. Since I can counter it or stifle it, I am not too worried about it. Same goes for deed. Vision Charm will also protect Dreadnought in this circumstance (why does everyone say to take this out? It's good in here.).

[Brizentine Empire]

I'm a friend of Lunar, the poster, and also go to the same card shop. Initially, I was skeptical of the Moms as well, but seeing them in action was actually impressive. I agree with the 4th brainstorm whole-heartedly, the Meddling Mages to the SB, and I can see the reasoning for the Trinket Mages, but I am a fan of E Tutor. Yes, it can't play around Chalice at one, but howabout trying two of each? This way you have a fast way to pull out a dreadnought and a slower but less-stoppable way if you need it.

Maybe:
-3 M Mages (to the board)
+2 Trinket Mages
+1 Brainstorm

Just an idea.

[stalkerzero]

I'm a friend of Lunar, the poster, and also go to the same card shop. Initially, I was skeptical of the Moms as well, but seeing them in action was actually impressive. I agree with the 4th brainstorm whole-heartedly, the Meddling Mages to the SB, and I can see the reasoning for the Trinket Mages, but I am a fan of E Tutor. Yes, it can't play around Chalice at one, but howabout trying two of each? This way you have a fast way to pull out a dreadnought and a slower but less-stoppable way if you need it.

Maybe:
-3 M Mages (to the board)
+2 Trinket Mages
+1 Brainstorm

Just an idea.

Honestly one of the best things about the trinket mages (especially at the shop we play at) is their casting cost. It's nice to have something you can leave on top of your library to get rid of Krosan Grip and Wipe Aways.

[Brizentine Empire]

I agree, it is really nice to be able to stop that grip with counterbalance. I support at least two of them in the MD.

[Brizentine Empire]

Also, I suggest that you name the deck The Unstoppable Raping Dreadnought, or TURD.dec

[yawg07]

Damn it the TURD.dec name was my idea! lol

I'm the Swan-Thresh player from his report and I have to say that the new list is pretty good.
Mother of Runes demands an answer, and it forced me to leave in Lightning Bolts that I would normally take out against him.
I just remember "You're Forcing Mother of Runes? Really?" Yes, really, and because I did Mongoose ran through.
Everyone should know you HAVE to get rid of them right then or within the next turn or you'll regret it.

Last night, I was Goyf-less (my friend with the ones I was borrowing is in Indy right now) so I put Swords to Plowshares in my T2 and played Legacy.
If he's not too embarassed to post his report, you'll see haha. I was his only loss in the swiss, playing lightly altered G/W Type 2 :laugh: We BOTH went 3-1 and went 3rd/4th in Finals
Also found that Rgb Goblins can't handle a 5/6 Vigilance Indestructable Flyer :P But I digress, this is not the thread haha ...

Mother of Freaking Runes, she's a LOT better than people give her credit for, trust me.

[raharu]

An agro-control player will always force an early MoR if they can. Always, and there's a reason for it.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Well, I don't feel like posting a full detailed tournament report like last time, but I will give a brief synopsis.

Place: 3rd/4th

Round 1: Loss. Yes, I lost to a standard deck + swords. Green/white. A bit disappointing, but he was running at least 10 forms of dreadnought removal (swords, o-rings, grips) and Gaddock Teeg stopped my force of wills (which I drew right after he played it) and he went 3-1, so I don't feel so bad.

Round 2: Win: Merfolk: rape, end of story.

Round 3: Win: Rouge aggro loam: interesting, he never saw grip :). He ran crucibles along with exploration, and an interesting card called Ghost Quarter. It normally could be used to get all basics out of the opponents deck, but I stopped him from having both crucible and exploration, and I had enough basics to last against only one a turn until dreadnought went in for the kill. It took a little while because of maze of ith.

Round 4: Win: Death and Taxes: Same build as the one from the previous report, but a different pilot. No Mother of Runes this time, but vision charm saved my ass (and dreadnought's, from an StP.) Won via dreadnought + protection, go figure. This game was actually interesting though, both of us had a lot of pressure on us. Would you risk walking into a Daze if a 12/12 trample was staring you in the face?

1st Round Playoffs: Loss: 42-land: This is a rough matchup. I lost game one without even seeing life from the loam. He wasted my tundra and I had a hard time recovering. Game 2 Mage kept Life from being used (but it was there). I had a fighting chance game 2, with a tutorable needle and crypts. He played ancient grudge, and afterwards I had to set up my game plan very carefully. I needed to crypt him, drop dreadnought, pass turn, then drop needle naming Maze of Ith (he had 2 out) and go for the win. A second MM came, which I set to ancient grudge, which helped a little, but I didn't see the dreadnought pieces in time (I had the crypt and needle ready too). Too many ports, factories, treetop villiages and monasteries, they eventually killed me.

That was a bit more detailed than I planned, but my memory was a little fuzzy. I wasn't really taking notes, this is just what I remember. Overall, I am happy with the deck still, but I want to see how it fairs in a larger tournament. Preferably against some good competitive decks, as it has only faced a few. It won't happen this friday, since several people from our shop will be at Gencon.

[Brizentine Empire]

Yes, Yawg07, TURD.dec was your idea, and you can copyright it if you so wish :P. Also, this is purely hypothetical and only an idea to give the deck another option, but couldn't ice from the Fire/Ice card be very useful? The deck is already kinda tempo-built, and ice could help tap an opponents maze of ith so you can swing for the win, or it could buy you a turn by tapping an attacking creature before an attack, plus you draw the card, keeping the tempo up. Just seems like a possibility to me, but I know most people won't like it due to the deck's lack of red mana for even more utility with the card.

[yawg07]

I think Needle fills that role a lot better, though. :D

[thefreakaccident]

I had built a tempoish build of ur dreadnought a long time ago, but never actually built it...


lands//21
4 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 tolaria west
4 volcanic island
2 faerie conclave
2 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 island
1 seat of the synod


spells//33
4 fire/ice
3 lightning bolt
4 stifle
1 trickbind
4 force of will
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
1 pithing needle
2 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives
3 counterbalance
2 repeal (could be anything, flex slot :tongue: )


creatures//6
3 phyrexian dreadnought
3 trinket mage



sideboard//
4 pyroclasm
3 reb
3 beb
3 tormod's crypt
1 pithing needle
1 engineered explosives

[Brizentine Empire]

I think that a UR tempo build would be interesting, but I disagree with the man lands and such, maybe try something else in those slots, if not just other lands. Maybe an Academy Ruins?

[Brizentine Empire]

OK, I piloted Lunar's build at our local tournament to interesting results. Since this thread has gotten decent feedback, I figured I'd give an analysis for those who might be interested.

Round 1: UW Control Loss 1-2
These games were very good and very, very long. Game one I resolved a dreadnought on turn 4, but didn't have an answer for his second O Ring. He bashed face with a Meddling Mage equipped with a jitte and steel of godhead. Game two I managed to resolve a dreadnought on like turn 6 after a counter war on the stifle. Dreadnought managed to win it. Game three involved many counterwars, but I had counter-top. Finally resolved a second dreadnought, but he top-decked an O Ring. Then he killed me with an Augury Adept (3cc).

I know, this deck isn't a mainstream legacy match-up, but its good somehow. The deck went 4-0 in ourcompetitve meta, so who knows.

Round 2: BRG Goblins Loss 0-2
This was interesting because I was playing Lunar, the author of this thread, and he was piloting my Goblin deck, and I his deck (we switched for variety). Game one I kept a one-land hand with a top and a brainstorm, and didn't see a second land. Obviously, I lost. Game two was a little better. He managed to resolve a lackey, which wasn't good for me. I had two Moms though, so the game dragged on while I attempted to find a card to get dreadnought in, all the while having a counter for the inevitable Warren Weirding. Also, he kept porting one of my two lands, making it very difficult. Never found a stifle effect though, I must either have horrible luck or just seriously suck at this game. Haha. Oh well.

Round 3: Random Artifact Scrub deck Win 2-1
Yeah, I lost game one to two frogmites. The player wasn't very good and didn't play ravager or cranial plating, so I refuse to call the deck affinity, raffinity, or ravanger. The only non-land permanent I saw was top for about 10 turns. Wtf is my luck. Luckily games two and three I won with turn two dreadnoughts, he had no answers.

Round 4: White Geddon Stax Win 2-1
This MU is tough, cause an early chalice at one can be brutal. However, my srtategy to drop a dreadnougt ASAP worked game one, (turn two) and I won it with some protection from counterspells. Game two was tough. I didn't both dreadnought pieces in my opening hand, but I had a top and lots of countermagic, so I tried it. I countered two CotV with spell snares (yes!) but by the time I found the dreadnought he had gotten enought permanents through to have me on lock-down. I could've pulled off a tech with vision charm where at his end step I would fase out his smoketack, then play my stuff, but I didn't have a second charm or stifle to play my nought. He ends up winning with an angel. Game three I countered another CotV with spell snare (yay again!) and pulled it out with serenity follwed by a dreadnought.

Overall, it started disappointing, but got better, and beating Geddon Stax is a nice achievement for this deck. I think Goblins is another dangerous MU. There are three propagandas in the board, but I never saw any of them in game two. Hope this helps ou anyone who might try to build this.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Just as a side note, Brizentine Empire has absolutely no luck in this game. In all of the goldfishing and testing that I have done, the deck has proven to be extremely consistent. In fact, it almost always has either a turn 2 dreadnought, or a turn 4 protected dreadnought. Games where I don't, I have top/counterbalance and insane control magic. For me, the deck always plays well, and it never has a bad goldfish, its just that I don't always get the hand that I need for each particular match (for example, a turn 2 dreadnought with force and daze backup sounds pretty good, but one Krosan Grip completely ruins this). I must admit, sometimes I wind up with only 2-3 lands the whole game (not sure why, there are plenty in there, I added one since the last time I posted the list for a total of 21), but this is enough for the deck to easily play off of, just not with Port out.

[stalkerzero]

The trick to beating your own Goblins build is to have them only draw a few lands and then proceed to play 3 Propagandas and a Back to Basics. :wink:

The games I did get to watch partially the deck still seemed really solid. It faced some of the same problems I did last night - dealing with a resolved Jitte and creature and a few unlucky draws.

[Brizentine Empire]

Yeah, the propagandas would've been nice to see, but alas, I didn't.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

The goblin MU is rough for this deck, which is why I put 4 propagandas in the sideboard...problem is you have to draw them. The tutorable needle is good as well, but name carefully. The best strategy I can come up with is to fetch basics, needle port or vial, slow them down/draw out grips with propagandas and then get dreadnought out. If they play artifact destroying goblins (tinkerer/tin street) they can either be countered or stopped by Mom. Shattering Spree can only be stopped by Mom, though. Meddling Mage is a possibility, but most goblin decks run too much burn (some will board it out against this deck though). Mom is extremely valuable here, so use counters to protect her. Unfortunately, she can't protect herself from warren weirding, but goblins can only run so much removal, and more weirdings usually means less burn, so MM can stick easier. Oh and the strategy for game one is to get dreadnought out as fast as possible, hopefully with counter backup, don't bother trying to set up countertop (unless you have it and don't have dreadnought). Although stopping removal with it may sound useful, but giving them time to find answers/swarm and kill you (which is what they usually will do game 1) is not a good idea. Game 1 they usually have a lot less answers to dreadnought.

[Brizentine Empire]

If anyone has any ideas or opinions for this deck, please share. There will be more testing tonight at a local tournament, so we'll see how that goes.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Alright, I guess it's time for the tournament reports. I don't remember all of the details so I will just say what I remember.

Wednesday was bad. There were 4 rounds. Round 1 I lost to aggro-loam due to being mana flooded both games. Round 2 I lost to Dragon Stompy due to being mana screwed both games (how does that happen?). Round three I won against stax because his deck screwed him over (I can't really brag about those wins), and round four I won against a green stompy deck piloted by a person who hadn't played magic in over ten years and had to read what my fetchlands were. I don't think this tournament gave a very good reflection of the decks capabilities, but I thought I should mention it anyway.

Friday was interesting however.

Round 1: 42-land: 2-1 win. I had not beaten the pilot of this deck in over 7 months, and 42-land is not a great matchup for me either. He got game 1. I boarded in meddling mages and pithing needles. Game two he drops manabond turn 1, putting some lands into play and life from the loam in the yard, but there was no maze of ith. I drop meddling mage naming loam, followed by a dreadnought shortly after. Game three I saw two needles in my opening hand. I drop one naming maze of ith and the other naming the factory he had in play. I got dreadnought out after that and attacked through his worthless maze. I felt really good winning this matchup. Before the tournament, I was considering testing Armageddon for this matchup, but I decided since there was only one person playing it that it would be unnecessary and that I would just rely on pithing needle. Now I am glad that I did and pithing has found a permanent home in my sideboard.

Round 2: ????: 2-0 win. I don't know what to call this, it used nethervoids along with dark rituals and manlands together. The rest of the deck was basically removal. He showed me the decklist later and there were over 14 removal spells. Normally, this would be a horrible matchup, but I designed my deck to fight removal. Game one I used stifle/wasteland to keep him off of black mana. He had a hand full of unplayable removal and I had a mother of runes, countertop and a dreadnought at the end of the game. Game 2 played out in a similar manner, he got mana screwed with a little help from me.

Round 3: Swan thresh. 2-0 win. This is the same deck as in the previous tournament report but with a different (and not as good) pilot. My deck worked perfectly, getting out protection followed by dreadnoughts at just the right times. Game 2 I dropped a meddling mage naming grip, which was in his hand the whole game. I was very happy to win this matchup, as postboard is usually very difficult (they board out the swan combo for grips, needles and blasts).

Round 4: Death and Taxes. 0-2 loss. This was piloted by Kuma. Game one I made a mistake that cost me the game by not attacking with a trinket mage when I had the opportunity. It was an epic game though. I never saw any protection. Instead, I got 3 dreadnoughts out. Usually pretty good, but he answered them all (barely). He even killed one through damage (serra avenger equipped with jitte with 4 counters and a second avenger). Game two I had mother of runes, MM naming swords and dreadnought, but he got around them all eventually. This deck just has so many dreadnought answers (swords, flickerwisp, o-ring, chant, jitte wielding avengers :confused: ). As a point of interest though, Kuma even admitted that when I played a dreadnought via vision charm, it was actually better than stifle since his flickerwisp and o-ring couldn't hit it. I just didn't have the protection to help it on the next turn (I usually do though). So :tongue: to those of you who say vision charm is bad. It is good in the right deck.

Round 5: I got paired against Brizentine Empire, who was also 3-1 so we drew into the top 8.

First playoff round: Swan Thresh: 0-2 Loss: This was the good pilot from the previous tournament report (as a side note, he beat the other one in the mirrormatch in the next round of the playoffs too). I new I was in trouble after I lost game 1, since postboard I am fighting off so much hate. This guy usually lucksacks me in some way, I have a long history of ridiculous instances of sheer dumb luck on his part causing me to lose. But not this time. He just outplayed me. I had dreadnoughts, protection, countertop (obviously not resolved), but through many counterwars, misdirections, mom-bolt responses, and playing through the protection of MM and keeping countertop at bay, he eventually beat me. The games were great as always though.

Overall, I was very satisfied with how the deck played, it didn't fail on me hardly at all. It is a bit discouraging to lose when the deck performs at it's peak, but it is good to know that it is very consistent and it will win if my opponent isn't on top of their game as well. Turn 3-4 protected dreadnoughts usually do pretty well. I am not sure how much more I will use this before going back to dreadstill, but rest assured, even after I change it back, The Unstoppable Dreadnought will return eventually and catch those unprepared off guard.

[stalkerzero]

Congratulations on your top 8. From what I hear it's a rough tournament scene to break in to the top 4 group of people. It's usually the same 4-5 people every week (at least that's what Matt/Jerry say).

I think it's a really solid deck. Had to be a nice break from playing Dreadstill.

[Hanni]

This probably isn't the right thread for this, since I know there is a Dreaded Fish thread somewhere a few pages back, but I don't feel like digging for it.

Mother of Runes is awesome in here. Like Nihil said, Mother of Runes is a woefully underplayed Tier 1 card. It's one of the best Fish creatures ever, which is why I ran it in UWb Fish when the deck was still competitive. Actually, why isn't UWb Fish still competitive? Because of Goyf? It just needs retuned to the new metagame. This means dropping the Grunts, Avengers, StP's, and Jittes (fitting the Jittes in the sideboard) and adding Dreadnought. Problem solved.

U/B/w DreadFish

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [RAV] Island (2)
1 [SHM] Swamp (2)
1 [9E] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [5E] Portent
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Much like tempo Thresh, I decided to cut CounterTop for faster cards. CounterTop locks are very nice but from my personal experience with Dreadnought, the deck really just wants to disrupt quickly so it can drop a Dreadnought and win before the opponent can recover. CounterTop is really slow and requires a big mana investment and is another 2 card combo. With the configuration I have now, there are plenty of amazing 2 card combos that work well with interchangable pieces that are much quicker than Counterbalance as well as more consistent:

Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 StifleNought.
Turn 1 Mother of Runes, Turn 2 StifleNought.
Turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Dark Confidant.
Turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 Dark Confidant.

So on and so forth but those tend to be my favorites. Meddling Mage gets alot stronger when you have Thoughtseize and Portent to screw the opponent over. Thoughtseize and Mage answer Krosan Grip alot better than Counterbalance. Dark Confidant is a crazy draw engine for this deck if it goes unanswered... I don't think I've ever lost a game with this deck when Confidant has remained in play for more than a few turns.

Personal opinion I suppose, but I love my list. It feels like UWb Fish while I'm playing it... and then I drop a Dreadnought and win out of nowhere. The deck can always play Fish beatdown as an alternate win method if Dreadnought simply can't do it against something like Thresh or Landstill. Jittes out of the board bring back the old Fish feel, too.

Personal opinion again, but I believe this is a much stronger shell for Dreadnought than Dreadstill.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

I actually had something like this in mind when I first started this idea, and I actually posted this list in the dreaded fish thread first, but since I didn't use black it didn't really fit. I didn't use black mainly for money reasons, as I think it would be a great addition, but I think it goes a little farther from the idea of this deck, to protect dreadnought at all costs. It works really well and is very consistent and hard to deal with.

If I were to use black, then I would lean towards dreadstalker actually, as I think it looks amazing, with great disruption cards, awesome synergy, and an alternate win condition that gets around almost all of dreadnought's weaknesses. But I do think dreaded fish has potential too, and it is the only other deck that I know of that abuses Mother of Runes and Dreadnought together (this is just simply amazing, as anyone at our tournament will tell you).

And stalkerzero, about getting top 8 at our tournament, it is not always the same people, what makes it hard is that there are so many people there that play amazing decks and usually have multiples, so you never know what to expect. From Wednesday to Friday, the metagame can completely change. Generally, the same 8 or 9 people usually top, but some of the better players often lose out and sometimes random decks make it much farther than they should due to innovations that no one expects. You have to be ready to play the best tier 1 decks of the format along with random decks that are surprisingly good and designed to play well in the format too.

[Rood]

U/B/w DreadFish

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [RAV] Island (2)
1 [SHM] Swamp (2)
1 [9E] Plains (3)

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [5E] Portent
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [VI] Vision Charm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

I can definetally see you having mana issues with 17 lands and 8 Fetchies. A deck like UGR Trash or any deck running the Stifle/Waste package. Also a resolved Counterbalance seems like it would be something horrible considering your curve doesn't exceed 2 outside of FoW. Also, what do you do against a resolved T1 CoTV for 1? 27 cards are dead from there on out.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

That is why in the original build for this thread I changed E. tutors into trinket mages. They get around chalice and counterbalance and can grab the E. Explosives needed to destroy them. I'm not sure if trinket mage can really go in Fish though. Maybe you could just run some E. Explosives? I understand it could hit a lot of your permanents, but it won't if your using it to destroy chalice and it will be worth it if your using it to destroy counterbalance. Also, you can cast it for three (well, so can I, but not nearly as easily), which is very helpful against trinisphere (and stax in general), as well as ITF.

[BreathWeapon]

Agreed, Meddling Mage and Mother of Runes are no replacement for Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, what makes Dreadnought decks so powerful isn't Dreadnought but the Trinket Mage and Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top giving it total board and stack control.

Trinket Mage, Trickbind, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top are just superior to the speedier versions with the possible exception of Trickbind vs Vision Charm if you're using Tombstalkers.

White is also just a bad splash color, G is auto-include just for Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip, IMO.

[Hanni]

Trinket Mage, Trickbind, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top are just superior to the speedier versions with the possible exception of Trickbind vs Vision Charm if you're using Tombstalkers.


Then how come the tempo versions of Threshold are effective... you know, the ones that drop CounterTop for faster tempo cards? It's the same premise here... instead of using Wasteland/Stifle, I use Dreadnought/Stifle to just end the game instead.

CounterTop is extremely strong but I don't understand why it should automatically be an autoinclude in every single deck.


I can definetally see you having mana issues with 17 lands and 8 Fetchies. A deck like UGR Trash or any deck running the Stifle/Waste package.

How is this manabase any different from normal Threshold? Seriously.


Also a resolved Counterbalance seems like it would be something horrible considering your curve doesn't exceed 2 outside of FoW. Also, what do you do against a resolved T1 CoTV for 1? 27 cards are dead from there on out.

The goal is to hopefully FoW/Daze/Thoughtseize them before they resolve. If the metagame is heavy with CounterTop decks, I wouldn't play anything with Dreadnought in it anyway, regardless if I were running CounterTop myself or not. The deck has 6 cards to answer Chalice and CounterTop postboard with Vindicate and EE.

[BreathWeapon]

Then how come the tempo versions of Threshold are effective... you know, the ones that drop CounterTop for faster tempo cards? It's the same premise here... instead of using Wasteland/Stifle, I use Dreadnought/Stifle to just end the game instead.

CounterTop is extremely strong but I don't understand why it should automatically be an autoinclude in every single deck.



How is this manabase any different from normal Threshold? Seriously.



The goal is to hopefully FoW/Daze/Thoughtseize them before they resolve. If the metagame is heavy with CounterTop decks, I wouldn't play anything with Dreadnought in it anyway, regardless if I were running CounterTop myself or not. The deck has 6 cards to answer Chalice and CounterTop postboard with Vindicate and EE.

Comparing tempo in Threshold to tempo in Dreadnought is pointless, tempo in Threshold is exploited with multiple 1 card threats while Dreadnought has to assemble a single 2 card threat. With out Enlightened Tutor, the tempo gains can't be translated into a GG consistency unless Dreadnought has the combo in hand, and if you're playing Enlightened Tutor with out playing Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top you fail at deck building.

Dreadnought decks are not fish decks, you're either building around an Enlightened Tutor, Vision Charm, Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top shell or a Trinket Mage, Trickbind, Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top shell based on the need to goldfish aggro or splash non-White.

Also, not running 4 Wasteland in a deck with 4 Stifle + X Trickbind is just terrible, especially if you're playing a "tempo" game.

Dreadnought decks are not Fish decks, you have to understand how Dreadnought decks work and then address the Counterbalance/Sensei's Divining Top and Chalice of the Void problem if you want to be successful with the archetype.

Meddling Mage and Mother of Runes are just a really bad reason to play White.

[Hanni]

Do you have any proof to back any of that up, rather than just saying the idea is terrible because it doesn't run CounterTop?

The Fish list I posted has been very successful in the matches I've played it in. Mother of Runes is faster than CounterTop at protecting Dreadnoughts vs StPs while Meddling Mage has been more consistent with protecting Dreadnoughts vs Krosan Grips. The deck has a quicker disruption package, which leads to more successful turn 2-3 Dreadnoughts going the distance. You don't need to protect Dreadnought for 6 turns, just 1-2. Which is why I don't run CounterTop.

Maybe try the decklist before assuming it's not going to work because it doesn't run CounterTop and Tarmogoyf?

[raharu]

Meddling Mage and Mother of Runes are just a really bad reason to play White.

UNTRUEUNTRUEUNTRUE

Have you ever played MoR? Ever?

[MTG Guru]

Isn't Swords to Plowshares relevant as well, if he ever decided to run it?

[BreathWeapon]

Do you have any proof to back any of that up, rather than just saying the idea is terrible because it doesn't run CounterTop?

The Fish list I posted has been very successful in the matches I've played it in. Mother of Runes is faster than CounterTop at protecting Dreadnoughts vs StPs while Meddling Mage has been more consistent with protecting Dreadnoughts vs Krosan Grips. The deck has a quicker disruption package, which leads to more successful turn 2-3 Dreadnoughts going the distance. You don't need to protect Dreadnought for 6 turns, just 1-2. Which is why I don't run CounterTop.

Maybe try the decklist before assuming it's not going to work because it doesn't run CounterTop and Tarmogoyf?

Yes, I've been piloting Dreadnought based decks since the Phyrexian Dreadnought de-errata, and what you're trying to do right now I've already done. I don't want to sound dismissive, but it's pointless arguing over something when you've already played it and other people have only just begun to test it, you'll either figure it out or you'll just win games on the back of the combo + disruption and wont need to bother optimizing the archetype.

Meddling Mage being > Counterbalance vs Krosan Grip is a reason to SB the card and not MD it.

I never said a word about Tarmogoyf, I run Tombstalkers.

@Raharu: Yes, and it's just not good enough.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Alright, I am taking a break from Dreadstill to bring back The Unstoppable Dreadnought (or The Unstoppable Raping Dreadnought, T.U.R.D.dec as it has been named by some). I have altered the list this time and I think it is better now. I saw in the dreadstalker thread someone used Lighting Greaves, which fits the idea of this deck very well, so I thought I would give them a try. Here is the list that I am going to try out this week hopefully:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Mother of Runes
3 Trinket Mage

2 Enlightened tutor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Vision Charm
2 Trickbind
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Oblivion Ring
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
5 Island
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

SB

1 Serenity
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Back to Basics
2 Pithing Needle
3 Meddling Mage
3 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Counterbalance

[Kuma]

The Unstoppable Dreadnought (or The Unstoppable Raping Dreadnought, T.U.R.D.dec as it has been named by some).

Fixed that for you. I know your Dreadnoughts bring the mad beatz, but I don't think you want them to end up like Tupac.

To be more constructive, 3 StP seems weird. Maybe cut a Vision Charm/Trickbind for the fourth?