[Deck] Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78 [Archive]

View Full Version : [Deck] Astral Slide vs. Legacy, take 78

Pages : [1] 2

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 04:51 AM

Update RIP: 2/2/2018

The deck has been dead for awhile, just figured I'd update this thread with a final post. Slide had a good run in the Tier 2 league, but ultimately it never recovered from the blow removing damage from the stack dealt it. The deck also suffered from never getting spells or creatures printed for it during the era of OP critters OR the era of OP spells. As a result the large engine that comprises the heart of the deck is simply too expensive to keep up with the tempo generated by modern Legacy decks.

Another way to put it is the deck requires Astral Slide, which has the same mana cost as Show and Tell, but doesn't win the game instantly and isn't blue, to function, plus another 20 or so cycling cards that are at best mediocre, and lots of mana, leaving you around 10-15ish slots to play actually good Legacy power staples. The engine is not good enough to overcome that, especially with DRS providing 60% of the format exactly enough maindeck hate to turn off said engine, and Leovold just basically LOLing at your entire deck concept. Oh, and you also auto-lose to pretty much any combo too, so there's that for a bonus.

Siege Rhino is cool and all, but he's not enough to overcome all of this on his own.

So good bye funnest deck ever and two times world champion, it's been a blast and at least we'll always have the memories.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Update 6/10/2016

I think this deck, or a Legacy deck that includes Astral Slide anyways, might finally be viable again - see my post on page 14 for an explanation.

Updated 11/28/2010

Astral Slide

Table of Contents
1) History and Origins
2) Stereotypes
3) The Core
4) Colors
5) Disruption
6) Most Recent Additions
7) Lists
8) Playing the Deck
9) Matchups

History and Origins

Astral Slide decks first appeared during Onslaught block constructed. These decks were Red/White board control decks that specialized in killing lots and lots of goblins through the use of board sweepers and Lightning Rift. These decks then moved into standard where they enjoyed varying degrees of success until the printing of Eternal Witness in Fifth Dawn. Largely dropping Red, the new Witness/Slide decks were extremely strong, propelling Julien Nujiten to a Worlds victory in 2004. A few years later, the archetype again went undefeated at worlds during the Extended portion of the event.

Stereotypes

Many players are still most familiar with Astral Slide decks as Red/White board control machines that focused more on Lightning Rift than on Astral Slide. In a way, the deck is a victim of its own success. Cycling decks have most commonly been tournament forces when they were organized as red/white board control decks. These decks, regardless of format shared a few similarities: 1) the decks featured a slow clock. 2) the decks destroyed aggressive, creature based strategies. 3) the decks absolutely rolled over and died to combo decks. 4) the decks had a mediocre matchup against control decks.

This has led a majority of people to put cycling decks (and therefore Slide) into the "glass cannon" section of their minds, ready to be called up when a particular metagame emerges, but otherwise dismissed. If you're interested in the archetype, I strongly advise you to put aside these preconceptions and attempt to judge the archetype based on what it has evolved to, rather than what it began as.

The Core

The heart of any Slide focused cycling deck is going to be the interaction between Astral Slide, cycling cards, and Eternal Witness. However, after that, the deck is extremely flexible in its design choices. Thus, the "core" of the deck is described more by card type rather than by specific cards.

4 Eternal Witness
3-4 Astral Slide
2-4 Life from the Loam
14-22 Cycling cards
4-8 Mana acceleration/fixing cards

After those 30-40 cards, the deck can consist of pretty much anything, this makes the deck extremely flexible and allows it to be tailored to a specific metagame or pilot.

Colors

The deck begins as Green and White but can branch into a third, fourth, or even fifth color fairly easily. The colors, and what they offer, is summarily described below. However, it's worth noting, that given the massive card pool in Legacy, there really isn't any strategy or plan that you can't answer just by staying in pure Green/White, and the consistency bonuses you get from only running two colors are significant. In other words, just because you can splash, doesn't mean you should.

Blue: The traditional blue "gets" in Legacy are Brainstrom and Force of Will. Slide runs neither. Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Gilded Drake, Miscalculation, Inuition, Vendillion Clique, Trygon Predator, Rhox War Monk, Meddling Mage, and Glen Eledra Archmage are much more the type of thing you're looking for here. Venser, Shaper Savant and Venser the Sojourner have varying degrees of utility depending on your build. Rebuild is also a valuable sideboard option depending on how the metagame shakes out post Scars of Mirrodin.

Red: Red offers Lightning Rift, burn, Ajani Vengeant, Lightning Helix, half of Hide/Seek, Firespout, artifact hate, and... well, that pretty much covers it. Outside of Scrap red doesn't offer much in the way of cycling cards. Lightning Rift was largely chased out of the format by the number of 3+ toughness creatures running around, however, the printing of Planeswalkers has made the card worth looking into once again. Rift is flat out one of the best options for a Slide deck looking to deal with Planeswalkers in Legacy.

Black: Black offers discard, creature kill, recursion, and graveyard hate. Black has by far the best cycling cards on offer, with Expunge, Fade from Memory, Rapid Decay, and Unearth available. Black also offers the "Seek" half of Hide/Seek which has gained quite a bit of value with the commonality of Emrakul and Progenitus decks.

Disruption

If you're planning on winning the game after turn 3 or 4 on a regular basis, you need to run disruption in your maindeck. There are several options that fit in well with Slide's overall gameplan and can be easily maindecked, I'll go over the most common below.

Wasteland: Despite the power of this strategy, and it's synergy with Life from the Loam, and the amount of fun it is, I actually recommend against this plan for most Slide decks. The reason is that with very few exceptions, your land drops are more valuable to you than they are to your opponent. I've run 4x Wasteland in Slide, and it's a lot of fun, but honestly, the Wasteland plan has led me astray and hurt me more often than its won me the game. 1-2 are enough to keep your opponents' manalands or what have you under control, which is about all you should be aiming for.

Orim's Chant: Recursive Chants can lock down an opposing player in combination with Eternal Witness and Astral Slide. However, the lock is vulnerable to counter magic, instant speed graveyard hate, creature and enchantment removal. The lock also requires multiple pieces to maintain and needs a constant input of mana to maintain it. On the plus side, you draw cards while maintaining the lock and can use use the various pieces to recur each other if one or more is destroyed. Due to timing issues, you'll also have the ability to respond to any type of disruption except counter magic during your main phase.

Chalice of the Void: Chalice requires only a one-time mana investment after which it simply and quietly preys on the compressed mana curve of most legacy decks, locking out removal, tutors, draw and burn spells. However, Chalice requires concessions in deck construction, such as abandoning powerful low cc cards like Unearth and Swords to Plowshares and running large numbers of turn one accelerants.

Countermagic: You can't run a heavy counter suite in a Slide deck because too many slots are taken up by the engine, and the nature of the deck lends itself much more to proactive, rather than reactive plans. However, SMALL amounts of countermagic can be highly effective versus combo decks or as an occasional surprise play. Miscalculation is basically a double Daze that cycles, which makes it useful in the deck even when you don't have anything to counter with it. Memory Lapse is the other highly playable Slide counter. Counterspell and Force of Will are nice dreams, but they're just not going to happen with this deck, accept it and avoid the heartbreak. Mental Misstep is amazing in this deck. Worth running even if you're not in blue.

Discard: There is a fair amount of useful creature based discard available, in the form of Tidehollow Sculler, Ravenous Rats, and Hag Hedge-Mage. There are also a number of useful discard spells available, such as Hymn to Tourach, Gerrard's Verdict, Duress, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy. Targeted discard is particularly adept at disrupting counter-based strategies and at providing card quality advantage as well as straight up card advantage. However, the commonality of cantrip engines and Sensei's Divining Top make discard significantly weaker than it has ever been at any previous point in the game's history, as players are now able to hide their best cards on top of the library until it is time to use them.

Most Recent Additions

Scars of Mirrodin: Scars is still new enough to be hard to fully judge, but my initial estimates lean towards saying Elspeth Tirel is worthwhile in several builds, Venser, the Sojourner is not quite good enough, and you will see a lot of people play Nihil Spellbomb and Ratchet Bomb against you.

M11: The best thing this set could have done would be to turn back the clock and allow damage stacking. Barring that, the best it could do is provide a turn 0 combo answer that's also good against other bad matchups like burn. Which it did. Welcome to the sideboard Leyline of Sanctity. Obstinate Baloth is a straight upgrade to Loxodon Hierarch.

Mirrodin Besieged: Mirrodin Besieged brought us Green Sun's Zenith which is a truly powerful tutor. This card is just amazing, run it, like it, love it. Mirran Crusader has some great abilities, but Slide doesn't play well with equipment. Thrun, the Last Troll is good at what he does, though what he does is kind of limited, and you already have better options for artifacts and enchantments than Leonin Relic Warder. Not much else here.

New Phyrexia: The moneymaker. Mental Misstep finally gives this deck options for dealing with turn 1/0 threats and a way to interact on the stack that it's never had before. Phyrexian Metamorph is interesting, but it's really just an upgraded Clone when you get right down to it. Surgical Extraction is a very strong option for GY hate to go alongside the dozens of other viable options that now exist for that purpose. Beast Within has almost no drawback in this deck, and is useful as a general purpose answer card, but I'm not convinced it's quite good enough.

Lists

The first list is what I'm competitively playing with and tuning right now, the second is something I just play for fun.

Bant Slide

Creatures
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Eternal Witness
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Rafiq of the Many

Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor

Enchantments
3x Astral Slide

Sorceries
2x Life from the Loam
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Instants
3x Radiant's Judgment
3x Miscalculation
4x Mental Misstep

Lands
2x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
2x Savannah
2x Tropical Island
4x Tranquil Thicket
2x Secluded Steppe
2x Lonely Sandbar

Sideboard
2x Scryb Ranger
3x Angel's Grace (flex slot, can also be Surgical Extraction or Peacekeeper or anything for your meta/problem deck really)
2x Rhox War Monk
3x Rebuild
1x Angus Mackenzie
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Trygon Predator
1x Loaming Shaman

You're essentially pre-boarded with cards like Miscalculation, Mental Misstep, Scavenging Ooze, and the KotR/Bojuka Bog combo. If you really want to preboard, putting a singleton Teeg in the MD to search out with Zenith isn't exactly hard to do, and it's not like you lose access to lots of things with a teeg on the board. Mostly just Jace2 and GSZ. The only real weakness in this build I've noticed so far is that it has no way to deal with small utility dudes, like Dark Confidant or Stoneforge Mystic aside from using Slide on them. (note: do not use slide on stoneforge mystic). Gilded Drake is a pretty funny option to solve this problem with, but I'm not currently running any. That may/probably will change.

Next I'm going to describe the list I'm currently playing for fun. I don't recommend others try it. It's heavily customized to my playstyle and preferences and the MTGO meta, which is essentially 100% random.

Five Color Slide

Creatures
4x Eternal Witness
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Knight of the Reliquary

Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Ajani Vengeant

Enchantments
3x Astral Slide
2x Lightning Rift

Artifacts
4x Mox Diamond

Sorceries
2x Life from the Loam
3x Unearth

Instants
2x Intuition
2x Rapid Decay
4x Miscalculation

Lands
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
1x Taiga
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Island
4x Tranquil Thicket
2x Secluded Steppe
2x Lonely Sandbar
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith

Sideboard
3x Gilded Drake
3x Firespout
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Krosan Grip
4x Leyline of Sanctity

Playing the Deck

The gameplan of a Slide deck can be roughly extrapolated from the South Park Underpants Gnomes. Step 1: Establish your mana. Step 2: Spend your mana. Step 3: Gain control of the board. Step 4: Profits.

Play out your cycling lands until you've got three mana, once you've hit that threshold, feel free to start cycling them away. A dedicated mana denial strategy that can force itself through your defenses (basics, fetches, loam, and artifact mana/land search) is probably the worst thing a Slide deck can come up against. Fortunately, the deck does have a strong manabase, and thanks to Loam it can usually recover from LD effects fairly quickly.

Given the number of cycling cards in the deck, if you have mana at the end of your opponents turn, you're generally making a mistake. Don't be afraid to cycle through removal just because you think your opponent may play a creature next turn. The goal is to burn through your deck until you get Witness/Slide or Loam online, at which point you can bury your opponent.

Once you've gained control of the board, either through creature superiority, chantlock, or by means of removal, the game should end pretty quickly. No deck has the same level of recursive lategame power as Slide does, and once you hit the point where you're taking advantage of that, your opponent should be unable to mount a comeback.

Matchups

Decks were chosen based on their presence in the Source DTB Forum on 5/6/10 and are organized alphabetically.

Aggro Loam
How good this matchup is depends almost strictly on whether or not they're running Devastating Dreams. If they have Dreams you're probably going to lose this. Mass LD effects own Slide pretty hard. If they're not running Dreams, which a lot of lists aren't anymore, than it's a lot like playing a mirror where your opponent doesn't have any relevant cards.

Chant: Pull the Tabernacle for the second Bog, lose the Vengeances for additional Swords and Extirpates. Chant can be replaced by Grip if you're worried about Seismic Assault.

Chalice: CotV is worthless here as they also eschew one mana spells and often run Chalices themselves. Bring in Crypts and the third copies of Decay and Vapors.

ANT
Over a long enough time period, they can overcome Chalice or Chant in game one. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. Games 2 and 3 you bring in Canonist. It's been my experience that two pieces of hate is generally more than they can deal with, although you can always lose to the turn one on the play win.

Chant: pull the creature removal, Maze, Deeds, Slide, and Tabernacle for Teegs, Canonists, and Extirpate. Use Extirpate to counter Mystical Tutor.

Chalice: Lose the Vapors and Dusts for Canonists, but be aware that Hurkyll's Recall canl bounce all your hate at once during your endstep. If this is of particular concern for you, then replace the Canonists in the board with Rule of Laws.

Bant Survival
It's a thresh deck with more draw and fewer counters. Chalice and maindeck enchantment removal and graveyard hate are all things it doesn't want to see. They will have some "tech" creatures like Kira, Great Glass Spinner that make it harder to dominate them with Slide, but in most cases, it won't be enough.

Chant: Pull the Chants, add Grips. Extirpate is also worth looking at in this matchup.

Chalice: Their curve is diversified enough that Chalice isn't that great. Add Explosives and the third Decay to replace them.

Countertop
Another deck that is unhappy to see maindeck enchantment removal. Low threat count leaves them vulnerable to large quantities of removal. All of their creatures are vulnerable to Slide unless they run Nimble Mongoose. You have guys that are bigger than Nimble Mongoose. The ability to cycle away cards that they could otherwise hit with CB combined with a higher than average curve are real bonuses in this match.

Chant: Pull the Chants, Tabernacle, and a Swords for Grips and Vapors. Also worth considering ditching the Crop Rotations for Teegs depending on their build.

Chalice: You can bring in Explosives, and they'll be useful, but you'll have to cut something else thats probably equally useful. If you go this route, start pulling with the Decays.

Ichorid
Maindeck graveyard hate helps a little, but not enough. After you lose game one, bring in your extra yard hate and Ghostly Prisons from the board. Proceed to win games two and three unless they get "the nutz". Not tons you can do here since you're essentially ceding game one to them.

Chant: Crop Rotation is the MVP of this match. With a Tabernacle on the board, Ichorids offense is reduced to Ichorids, a discard outlet, and FKZ-hasted Zombies. Repeated use of Bojuka Bog is also pretty hard for them to overcome. Pull the Slides, Vengeances, and Vapors for the extra Bog, Extirpates, Teegs, and the fourth Swords.

Chalice: Chalice is pretty worthless here, as even if you're countering Cabal Therapy, they'll still be able to sacrifice creatures for tokens off of it. Ghostly Prison is your best card against them. Pull the Vapors, Dusts, and Chalices for Explosives, Crypts, Prisons, and the third Decay.

Merfolk
Just keep building up your mana while killing as many of their lords as possible. You don't have any Islands, so unblockability isn't that much of a problem, don't be afraid to trade with them, their guys are generally more valuable to them than vice versa. If you manage to stick a Slide, it's probably over. Watch out for Stifle hitting your Slide triggers when you're brining back a Witness.

Chant: Lose the Chants for the extra removal in the board. Play tight and trade whenever possible.

Chalice: It's a tough call on whether or not to keep the Chalices in in this match, and a relatively build dependent one. If you see lots of Stifles and cantrips game one, its probably ok to keep the Chalices, if you don't though, pull them for Prisons and Vapors. Also consider replacing the Dusts with Explosives because again, Vial is a major threat here that Dust doesn't hit.

Survival
You've got a better long term card advantage and recursion engine, and a better draw engine to find them. Barring a crazy good draw, you should take this match walking away. However, given that there are about 1 million+ different builds, this isn't a matchup you can take for granted, as some of them will randomly have unexpected situational tech that just owns you the first time you see it.

Chant: Bring in the Grips, Vapors and a Bog, lose Tabernacle, Maze, and Crop Rotation.

Chalice: Lose the Chalices, bring in Explosives and Vapors. Depending on their build, the Crypts and Decay can also be useful.

Tempo Thresh
Just keep playing lands until you resolve a Loam, then play some more lands. Once your mana is established, you should be able to overpower their light threat base. It really does come down to surviving the first four turns with 3+ mana. Do that, and you're in great shape. Fail, and they may power through for the win. In either case, if the game goes long, it's yours.

Chant: Pull your Chants for the extra removal. Take out Tabernacle for the second Bog. You have more removal than they have dudes and counters. Kill all their guys, then win with yours. The Bogs help keep the Mongeese small.

Chalice: Only board for this matchup if you feel like it. Explosives are strong vs. this deck, as is Vapors. The combination of invulnerable mana, acceleration, Chalice and bigger dudes plus the already present removal suite is really more than their deck can handle.

Vial Goblins
You'll likely lose game one. LD+hastyfast swarm beats is the worst thing for Slide to face, and that's what goblins brings to the table. It doesn't help that you can't use Slide on their ETB creatures like Ringleader and Matron.

Chant: Bring in the extra removal for Bog and Maze, they don't use the graveyard or attack one at a time. Save your StPs for Lackeys, Warchiefs, and Chieftans, those are the three cards that can really prove problematic in this match. Vapors is relatively subpar here because there's almost always a "useless" goblin to sacrifice to it. However, the slight tempo loss and lifegain still make the card worth playing, just don't pin too many hopes on it. Whenever possible, keep an extra G up in this match to counter Wastelands with Crop Rotations, or at least bluff it.

Chalice: Pull your Chalices, Dusts, and one Rapid Decay in games two and three and bring in Explosives, Prisons, and Vapors. Prison is by far your best card against them. Dust comes out because it leaves Aether Vial behind and active, which is a dealbreaker in this matchup. Chalice does little after turn one because of the decks' spread out curve and Aether Vial's presence.

Zoo
Fast beats backed up by burn, however, if you survive to turn four and are out of immediate burn range, you've likely won.

Chant: Board into more Swords and Vapors, pull chants and land search spells. Chant is less useful here because they can just burn you out during your own turn. Focus on killing everything you see and don't be afraid to chump block. Your higher mana spells trump anything they've got in their deck, just focus on surviving until you can use them.

Chalice: Be careful of how much tomb damage you take. Try to stick a chalice asap, because Chalice@1 turns off fully half of their deck, including the majority of the burn spells. Bring in Explosives and Vapors for Dust and Decays.

Jak

08-10-2008, 05:33 AM

No Tarmogoyf.

Bourgeoise

08-10-2008, 06:05 AM

I hope that was a joke Jak. Both of the creatures in this deck designated as the beaters are much better for the deck as a whole than tarmogoyf would be because of the way they combo with the deck's namesake astral slide.

I'm pretty tired of people who complain that there is no tarmogoyf as soon as they see a deck not running it, it dies to almost every removal spell played in legacy, has no real abilities, and at first glance does not look like it has a home in this deck.

Now on to some food for thought. Does Mangara of Corondor combo well enough with Astral slide to think about including? You would want to find room for a couple of karakas as well and it might be able to replace vindicate since it essentially has the same effect even though it happens a turn slower.

Since you have some acceleration in the form of mox diamond and ancient tomb it might be feasible to run trinisphere in your board against combo, it doesn't look like it will hurt you too much and it just completely shuts down many combo decks where chant and abeyance can often only save you for a turn here and there.

The 8 discard effect disruption package you had listed for the sideboard doesn't seem like it would be a good choice since you only have 3 sources of black mana with 2 early ways to fetch one of them. For the disruption to be effective against combo you need to be able to cast it turn one consistently.

For the same reasons I listed above I would stay away from shred memory since you need double black to transmute it for something useful.

As far as loaming shaman is concerned I see how he might stick out as useful against graveyard dependent decks like ichorid and that you can reuse him with astral slide but often the turn you need to get rid of the graveyard is the turn they are killing you and you have no instant speed way of sneaking him into play, you might consider running something like wheel of sun and moon instead.

As I said just some food for thought, let me know what you think, good luck.

Jak

08-10-2008, 06:33 AM

No it wasn't a joke. I think you need to except that a deck playing green should run him. Everyone isn't doing it because some other deck runs him, it's because he is that good. Unearth and protection via Astral Slide. There's your home.

This has no answers for a Lackey (GOBLINS IS STILL GOOD) and has no disruption outside of six 3cmc and 4cmc cards. No Natuko Monastery or Wasteland (to go along with the Mana disruption theme) and no Swords to Plowshares. I am sorry but 3 Vindicate isn't enough, even with Witness.

Now I am not going to say that Astral slide sucks, but building a deck around it is hard. You need to run lots of stuff that cycles, 4 Slide, and then creatures for Slide. That package takes up a ton of room and leaves nothing for disruption or accel. Doing cute Witness tricks is cool, but wouldn't you rather just play Goyfs and win? Angel is really slow and there is this thing in the format called Swords to Plowshares. You can't resurrect that Angel. You run 3 solid beaters. Finks is okay, but will never get past a Goyf or Stalker or Doran.

TheLion

08-10-2008, 08:54 AM

I'm pretty tired of people who complain that there is no tarmogoyf as soon as they see a deck not running it, it dies to almost every removal spell played in legacy, has no real abilities, and at first glance does not look like it has a home in this deck.

QFT!

@topic:

Is Unearth really that good in this deck? I suggest replacing it by 3-4 Chalice of the Void (3, since you still run one 2cc spell mb), since this is your only 1cc spell. CotV disrupts so many decks, including combo. and you can bring it up turn 1.
If you cut it, I'd cut Vindicate too, in order to cut B completely. Maybe replacing it with Oblivion Ring (which fits good into the curve). Or Mangara (and then Karakas) as said already.

Why Genesis? You have no way, to tutor it, or put into graveyard. It is more a Survival card.

I'm not sure, but maybe 2 LftL are enough?

I'd play 3-4 Flagstones, since they combo with Edge of Autumn.

Trinisphere fits in the deck, too (in the SB), as said already.

As said: 8 black cards in SB, don't fit to 3 black sources in MB. But I'd cut black completely.

What about playing Lightning Rift? I know it would be your only red card, but maybe you could fit 2-3 in, together with 2 Plateaus. It gives you so much board control, combos with the rest of the deck and is a win condition.

EDIT: maybe Street Wraiths deserves consideration, too.

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 01:30 PM

On Tarmogoyf, it may indeed be the correct decision to run him. If he is run, then you would cut the Angels, Genesis, and the Tombs in order for 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Wasteland. 'Goyf comboes with Slide and Unearth and dredging Loams while Angel comboes with Slide and Tomb and Mox. There are a fair number of decks that just flat out lose to Angel attacking unmorphed on turn 2.

However, I think this is the wrong call for several reasons:
1) it slows the deck down. tomb is acceleration, this deck is built as a heavily accelerated deck. lack of speed has been slide's main problem in legacy. Wasteland slows you by denying you land drops (though it does the same to your opponent) and taking out tomb slows you by removing acceleration.

2) it makes the deck more graveyard dependent. one of the best points in Angels favor is that it doesn't remotely lean on the the gy.

That said, it could very well be the correct choice to run Wasteland/Goyf over Tomb/Angel.

Black Mana:

The deck has 9 sources of turn one black, and 14 ways to access black overall.

Turn one Black sources:
Windswept Heath
Windswept Heath
Scrubland
Bayou
Swamp
Mox Diamond
Mox Diamond
Mox Diamond
Mox Diamond

After turn one you can add in another five:
Flagstones of Trokair
Flagstones of Trokair
Edge of Autumn
Edge of Autumn
Edge of Autumn

Mangara is cool, but you'd have to replace the Flagstones with Karakas to fit them in, and she's sloooooow. Vindicate can be re-used with Witness, and ad infinitum with witness and slide. Mangara is mostly useless unless paired with Slide or Karakas. Flagstones works with more cards in the deck than Karakas would, and lets you run a not slow card in that slot anyways.

On Loam, in most decks two is enough, but with Mox Diamond in your deck and Wasteland in the format, you really, really want early Loams, and the best way to draw them is to just include more.

Genesis/Stronghold are there to make sure that if you're dredging a lot, you still get creatures. It happens sometimes when you're using loam a lot that you end up with lots of lands and nothing else, these two cards both make sure you get some dudes in that instance. One might be enough though, perhaps the Genesis should go for the fourth Angel.

The Chalice board could perhaps look like this?

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Extirpate

The main hesitation I have with Chalice is that vs. combo, you really want to set it at Zero and One. One isn't an issue, you can just cycle your Unearths. Zero turns off your diamonds, and both their color fixing AND acceleration are important to the deck.

I haven't played Legacy in awhile, and the last time I did Solidarity was the main combo deck, and it can pretty well ignore/work around Chalice and 3sphere. If things have changed on that front, I'd be interested in hearing it. Chalice also has some nice uses against thresh and burn, one of which is already good, one of which isn't.

Oh, and theLion? Yes, Unearth IS that good. It's actually better than that, it's amazing.

TheLion

08-10-2008, 02:19 PM

Your point on Tarmogoyf doesn't become clear, since you always change your argumentation:

On Tarmogoyf, it may indeed be the correct decision to run him.
[...]
There are a fair number of decks that just flat out lose to Angel attacking unmorphed on turn 2.

However, I think this is the wrong call (on Goyf) for several reasons:
[...]

That said, it could very well be the correct choice to run Wasteland/Goyf over Tomb/Angel.

Mangara is cool, but you'd have to replace the Flagstones with Karakas to fit them in, and she's sloooooow.

Why replace?

The Chalice board could perhaps look like this?

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Wheel of Sun and Moon
3x Extirpate

I haven't played Legacy in awhile, and the last time I did Solidarity was the main combo deck, and it can pretty well ignore/work around Chalice and 3sphere. If things have changed on that front, I'd be interested in hearing it. Chalice also has some nice uses against thresh and burn, one of which is already good, one of which isn't.

Oh, and theLion? Yes, Unearth IS that good. It's actually better than that, it's amazing.

Chalice is amazing, too. No Brainstorms, no Swords, no Ponders, no Senseis', it wins against Burn nearly alone, no Nimble Mongoose, no Vial, no Lackey, and so on...

My suggestion was, to play it in the MB, not SB, and replace Unearth with it. I have not tested it, but Unearth is your only 1CC spell, so i thought...

And how can Solidarity win against Chalice and Trinisphere? High Tide costs 1 too, and it's the most important card for this deck.

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 03:19 PM

Sorry if I was unclear about 'Goyf. Shorter version, 1) He doesn't get that big without your opponents help (you only regularly put lands and sorceries in the yard), 2) He's graveyard dependent in a deck that already heavily relies on the yard. 3) He's Vanilla in a deck that despises Vanilla.

Mangara's main issue is Slowness. The only deck that's successfully abused him so far (Death and Taxes) runs Vial to counteract this. Karakas is good in that deck, bad in this one. You'd have to replace the Flagstones to run Karakas because they're the only lands it would be remotely viable to replace, and pulling them is still a bad idea.

Generally speaking, slide beats interactive decks and loses to decks that play with themselves. By interactive I mean decks that cast spells and attack over the course of a few turns - this category includes everything from Goblins and Threshold to Truffle Shuffle and Deadguy. Non-interactive decks are things like Ichorid and Tendrils that play with themselves then just win through a few specific cards.

Chalice and 3sphere both help with those types of matchups immensely. I have absolutely no problem playing either maindeck. The problem is one of space. As noted by Jak, the slide engine and associated cards do take up a fair amount of room, leaving the deck very tight on slots. Usually Slide is played with the maindeck being all about beating interactive decks, and the board devoted to non-interactive ones. The best card to cut from the maindeck is probably Angel, and pulling it slows your clock down to Deadguy speeds, except without all the disruption.

TheLion

08-10-2008, 03:51 PM

Just a reference, here a recent Top8 decklist (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18791).

It runs WGR.

Oh and Solitary Confinement must be in this deck... It of course improves the Combo Matchup too. (untargetable).

Though I miss the Moxen in his list...

Aggro_zombies

08-10-2008, 04:07 PM

I stopped reading in morgan_coke's post where he said that Tarmogoyf makes this deck graveyard dependent. Apparently, Mr. coke needs to "RTFC." Tarmogoyf counts cards in both your graveyard and your opponent's graveyard. It is not uncommon for Tarmogoyf to get an additional +2/+2 (or greater, depending on what the other deck is) from your opponent's graveyard. Secondly, this deck uses Life from the Loam. How is it not graveyard dependent?!

Secondly, saying that Tarmogoyf should not be run because he dies to every removal spell is fallacious. Every creature in the game will die to some removal spell or another. Does that mean we should all stop running creatures and go back to the days of UW control with Millstone as the win? If you said "yes," you need to do humanity a service and kill yourself. Bitching and moaning about what something dies to completely ignores the fact that most non-control decks only run four or so removal spells. Even if they hit every single Tarmogoyf you own with a Swords, that's one less Swords pointed at another guy. The thing about Tarmogoyf is that he's so fucking good, your opponent HAS to answer him or risk losing. Sure, the same may apply to Exalted Angel, but having eight "z0mg must kill meh" guys instead of four makes your deck that much more resilient and that much stronger as a competitor. There's a reason why people shit bricks over Tarmogoyf - because he's FUCKING RIDICULOUS. Any deck that doesn't run him needs a helluva lot better excuse than "he dies to stuff" and "I <3 Angel too much to cut him."

Also, Slide is terrible in Legacy. Even with assloads of acceleration, it doesn't do anything relevant quickly unless you get the God Hand (tm) or your opponent gets unlucky.

TheLion

08-10-2008, 04:21 PM

He meant, that Tarmoyf is dependant on the graveyard, and he doesn't want more cards dependant on the graveyard, since he would then be more vulnerable to GY hate. Sure he looks at the opponents GY, too... but still...

I wouldn't run goyf neither, since he has no synergy with any of the cards. I'd rather play Citp creatures.
I mean if your opponent cant answer Loxodon Hierarch, he will die too, escpecially when you gain 4 life from him each turn.

Oh and look at the Top8 list I posted... do you see Goyf? No! And it were 48 players.

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 04:31 PM

TheLion

08-10-2008, 04:36 PM

The lower cost of 'goyf is less relevant to this deck than to others because of all the acceleration, if cost isn't such a factor, there are better creatures than goyf. Goyf is good for two reasons 1) he's cheap, 2) he's big. This deck doesn't make goyf big on its own, and it doesn't need him to be cheap.

That's exactly the point. This deck skips his 1cc and 2cc spells (except for a few like loam).
Goyf is good in decks with a low mana curve like Threshold, RG beatz and such.

Jak

08-10-2008, 05:05 PM

That's exactly the point. This deck skips his 1cc and 2cc spells (except for a few like loam).
Goyf is good in decks with a low mana curve like Threshold, RG beatz and such.

So we shouldn't play Goyf because he is undercosted?

TheLion

08-10-2008, 05:08 PM

no. but we could play better creatures on turn 2. not as consistantly, since we need mox or tomb. but in general we have faster mana development than other decks, and can effort playing more expensive spells than other decks can.

Jak

08-10-2008, 05:17 PM

no. but we could play better creatures on turn 2. not as consistantly, since we need mox or tomb. but in general we have faster mana development than other decks, and can effort spending more on our spells than other decks can.

So what creature are you recommending? All I have seen is "no goyf!". There really aren't any better creatures to run in the slot. You have 8 pieces of accel and you won't draw them all the time (Tomb doesn't do anything for this deck, and should probably be cut). He is most often a 5/6 for 2! You won't ever find a 5/6 for 3 or even 4. He is that good.

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 05:29 PM

Cards in this deck (and sideboard) Tomb accelerates:

Astral Slide
Exalted Angel
Unearth
Cataclysm
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere

That's 22 out of 75 cards that get accelerated by it. Really, it's 22 out of 47 once you've discounted lands and moxen (14 out of 32 maindeck). Tomb can also be used if you're casting more than one spell a turn to provide acceleration, for example: on t3 you could play Edge of Autumn AND Life from the Loam. See how cool that is?

I'm also testing some of the Saga cycling lands mixed in with the ONS ones, more because of extirpate/echoes than tomb though. A pair of 3/1 ons/us splits might work fairly well.

Jak, we're not saying "no goyf!" we're saying Angel, Finks, and Witness are all BETTER than goyf in the deck. If you have a suggestion on what other card(s) to remove for it, please share it with the rest of us.

EDIT: the cycling lands in question as potential one-ofs are Slippery Karst and Drifting Meadow.

Julian23

08-10-2008, 05:30 PM

@Jak:
TheLion isn't talking about manacost/power+toughness ratio but about creatures that actually _do_ something in this deck besides being just fat. If you actually wann argue about Goyf in this deck talk needs to be done about alternatives regarding their e.g. abilities and not just pure power/toughness.

TheLion

08-10-2008, 05:30 PM

So what creature are you recommending? All I have seen is "no goyf!". There really aren't any better creatures to run in the slot. You have 8 pieces of accel and you won't draw them all the time (Tomb doesn't do anything for this deck, and should probably be cut). He is most often a 5/6 for 2! You won't ever find a 5/6 for 3 or even 4. He is that good.

I'd play a mix of

Wall of Blossoms
Kitchen Finks
Loxodon Hierarch
Eternal Dragon
Flametounge Kavu
Eternal Witness

All have synergy with Slide.

Have a look at loam/slide decks (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Loam+Control&format=Legacy).

Nobody plays Goyf in Slide lists.

Jak

08-10-2008, 05:41 PM

Just because other people don't play with Goyf in there lists doesn't mean you can't. This deck is much less controlling than those other decks so it needs to be different no Confinement, Pyroclasm, Swords means you need something to stop creatures from hitting you. Angel will often be to slow and is just as vulnerable as Goyf. By making the deck less dependent on Slide the deck will be better, just like with Survival. You may win some games where you get a turn 2 slide turn 3 angel or something, but those won't happen all the time.

Doing cute tricks to gain life is nice but beating down with a 5/6 that has protection form every relevant removal spell is so much better.

TheLion, your suggestions are not that amazing. He doesn't even pay red for one thing. Hierarch isn't needed since he already plays 4 Finks. Blossoms is crap. He already plays Witness and Eternal Dragon is slow. How do you expect to compete when your deck is far too slow? You run no disruption and your threat gets owned by Swords.

TheLion

08-10-2008, 06:01 PM

My suggestions where more genereal on Slide decks, not on his list. I'd rather play red instead of black. Only for Lightning Rift and maybe Kavu. Rift combos with nearly your whole deck, while Unearth only combos with Slide or you need witness or Finks in grave, which means, it's sometimes a dead card.
I havent tested Unearth, but it doesnt look that good on paper.

This is a control deck. Playing slow creatures ala Eternal Dragon does not seem bad in a control deck.

5/6 goyfs are rare, too. And it's new to me, that Goyf has protection from Swords and Smothers. (the most relevant removal).

I'm tired of discussing goyf in this deck...

what about:
Tilling Treefolk (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/78.html)

He seems like a small Loam for free every turn (with slide).

Jak

08-10-2008, 06:04 PM

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 06:17 PM

Jak,
you can slide ANY of your creatures out in response to removal, not just 'goyf. The deck ISN'T slow, that's why there's so much acceleration in it. The lifegain is for racing aggro.

Cataclysm is meant as more of a "win the game"/safety button card. The deck can easily have 5-6 permanents in play after one resolves, which is a lot more than your opponent will likely have. It also devastates other board control decks.

Lion,
I like the treefolk as a potential supplement to Loam but not as a replacement. The thing that makes loam so great is that its an engine all by itself, whereas the treefolk isn't. Treefolk does play nicely with a lot of cards here though, I'd view it mainly as a replacement for Loam #3/potential Extirpate insurance.

Aggro_zombies

08-10-2008, 06:50 PM

Hey zomb, instead of RTFC, read the fucking post.

I stopped reading when I saw you say you stopped reading.. oooh wow, pretty goddamn pointless to make a response then eh?

I never said 'goyf dies to removal, I said he's VANILLA, as in, has no abilities aside from being big.

The lower cost of 'goyf is less relevant to this deck than to others because of all the acceleration, if cost isn't such a factor, there are better creatures than goyf. Goyf is good for two reasons 1) he's cheap, 2) he's big. This deck doesn't make goyf big on its own, and it doesn't need him to be cheap. Why exactly should he be an auto include omg u shuld k1ll urs3lf n00b! k thnx bai. when his main advantages aren't needed or used by the deck? Seriously, I want to know.

And yes, the fact that 'Goyf is yard dependent in a deck thats ALREADY yard dependent is kind of relevant, you know, that whole diversify routes to victory/threats concept? I guess that's just too n00bish an idea for an 3l1t3 mastorz like u.

Also, thanks for your opinion that slide is terrible in Legacy, a creature dominated format, and since you were already convinced of that before posting, why the hell did you post in this thread? go troll somewhere else.
Oh ho, a flame war? Fine, I'll take the bait.

I didn't say that you said that he dies to things. However, you may or may not have noticed that the posts above yours were making points along those lines. I simply wished to point out to them that using Goyf's vulnerability to removal as an excuse not to run him is a non-argument. YOU, however, did make the point about graveyard hate. How many opponents run symmetrical graveyard hate, and how many of them are going to Crypt themselves after they Crypt you? The creature is dependent on BOTH graveyards and therefore is less vulnerable to graveyard hate than you are making it out to be, since the chances that your opponent's yard will completely disappear at the same time are low. At the very least, Goyf will be a 1/2 post-Crypt because Crypt will hit the yard and give it +1/+1, even if the opponent's yard is empty.

I'm saying that Tarmogoyf should be run because it's a good creature, and good creatures win. Now, if this deck was running Chalice and Trinisphere, or if it ran 4 Pernicious Deed, 4 Wrath, and 4 EE, then arguments could be made not to include Goyf. Even then, in the latter case you have Genesis to recur him, and Goyf is a card that's too good not to be at least tested, much less dismissed offhand as not being synergistic. Which, by the way, brings me to another point: you don't have to have every card be a slave to the deck's theme to have a good deck - just look at the modern Threshold deck, which is more a collection of good cards than any particularly synergistic pile. What you need to realize is that Goyf may not necessarily be synergistic with Slide, but he IS synergistic with winning, which is probably the more important synergy given the implied goals of the deck.

Astral Slide is not a true control deck like Landstill or Stax, unless specifically built that way (and the opening list is not specifically built that way). It is best to think of it as being a schizophrenic aggro-control deck that can play a weak control game before switching over to playing a weak aggro game once favorable winds begin to blow. Tarmogoyf is helpful in both these respects because:

a) He blocks the shit out of 90% of the creatures in this format and survives,
b) He is extremely difficult to remove in the absence of a targeted removal spell,
c) He comes down early, helping you to stabilize quicker,
d) He ends the game quickly when it is time to do so.

Furthermore, this deck runs both Life from the Loam and Cataclysm. The latter spell is almost guaranteed to make Tarmogoyf an instant 4/5 if it wasn't one already, and Life from the Loam can make Tarmogoyf big very quickly. Just play it, recur whatever you have (or nothing at all, it's irrelevant), and start dredging. Voila! Big fucking guy for two mana! Best wall ever made for the first few turns, mind-boggling good finisher in the last few turns!

You said that Tarmogoyf had no useful abilities other than his size and therefore was not relevant here. I'm saying that his size is precisely his most useful ability. How many decks can field multiple 4/5 creatures on turn two? Oftentimes, the mere threat of losing one's Goose or Factory to a Tarmogoyf is enough to dissuade an opponent from attacking. The longer they don't try to win, the longer you have to make sure they can't win. Against Goblins, Goyf can tangle with most of what the deck plays and walk away (by the way, Slide is terrible against Goblins unless you run red). If you don't want to consider Tarmogoyf as being an offensive creature at heart, then think of him as being an amazing defensive creature that you can lean on while setting up Slide.

Finally, if you don't think Goyf diversifies your threat base enough, then drop black for red and run Lightning Rift, which is invulnerable to creature removal and makes use of the deck's engine, making it mostly independent of creature removal strategies.

Finally, I say Slide is bad from experience, not because I'm trolling. Hell, you should know this, given the whole "take 78" thing. Slide has turned out to be one of those decks that's great in theory yet doesn't quite work out when it's actually tested. But hey, maybe you've hit on the magic formula that is actually competitive in this format. If so, my hat goes off to you.

Also, TheLion, look at a longer list of historical Top 8s. How many times does Slide show up there compared to, say, Threshold or Aggro-Loam, decks that both run Tarmogoyf? Pointing to a bunch of lists and using it as an argument against Tarmogoyf when Slide isn't even a serious competitor in the metagame is a logical mistake. Perhaps Slide doesn't show up more often because it doesn't run Tarmogoyf? Ever thought of that?

georgjorge

08-10-2008, 07:44 PM

Ok, so all about Goyf worth saying has been said. Move on.

I like the deck, especially the Loam synergy and the Tombs.

Is Cataclysm really better than Wrath here ? Your opponent keeping a Stalker or Terravore could really hurt...

I'd also question the awesomness of Unearth, especially since it only comes online after turn three, which is not good if you fear Aggro. Going down to two seems viable, but I think the effect is only good in mid- to lategame, and you already have enough cyclers. I think four Chalice main is the right choice, seeing as you have no other disruption...if not, I'd play at least six of Thoughtseize/Therapies (3/3 split). Either way, SOME disruption would be needed. Discard main would also speed up the deck (instead of getting Slide countered, then playing another one, you can take away the Force turn one). But I think you're a bit too worried about combo with TWELVE cards in the side - with Chalice main, you'd need seven maximum (preferably the discard suite, Chant and Abeyance are narrow, and you need to take away Grips after boarding). That would leave room form some good CIP creatures to abuse with Slide and Witness...Shriekmaw comes to mind (I think you can slide it in response to it going to the grave), which could maybe be in the main. I'm sure there are others...

Also, 1-ofs without tuturing are not so good (Genesis, Stronghold), you rely on dredging them with Loam, and that's a very small chance.

xsockmonkeyx

08-10-2008, 08:18 PM

I think one of the biggest problems Slide has had in Legacy is that while the deck does some extremely broken things in the mid and late game, its early game is pretty weaksauce, and Legacy is very much an early game format. Some fairly radical steps were taken with the manabase to address this issue.

The deck ISN'T slow, that's why there's so much acceleration in it. The lifegain is for racing aggro.

I thought the acceleration was in there because it was slow.

BTW, you can throw all the accel you want at Astral Slide and it's still gonna be slow as hell in legacy.

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 09:00 PM

georg,

Cataclysm is better than Wrath because its so much more one-sided in this deck. One creature being left generally isn't a problem because you can just slide it out or eterna-block it with your own sliding critter. Also, the LD effect of Cataclysm is pretty trump vs. every other tier1.5-2 strategy. (thresh runs fine on 1-2 lands, and goblins runs fine off of vial) Including Chalice in the maindeck does make Cataclysm worse though because you're more likely to have multiple artifacts out.

Honestly, that's a very good point about Unearth being a 4-of. I've always run four and just cycled early ones away and then gotten them back with a witness, at which point both cards are essentially immortal. I will say the absolute floor for minimum cyclers to support slide is 13-14, and dropping Unearth down to a 2-of puts the deck at 13. I don't know if the maindeck slot should go to 3sphere or chalice, I'll start with Chalice and then try 3sphere next. Vindicate has been very underwhelming. The effect is good, but the spell is slow at three mana non-tombable.

Running Volrath's Stronghold costs you basically nothing and accidentally wins you some games. I completely do not understand your objection to including it.

Expunge replaces Edge of Autumn because 11 pieces of accel is too many and the deck wanted some instant speed removal.

I'm also confused by your suggestion of running discard + chalice. Discard is cc=1, and chalice is usually set at 0 and 1.

I think this list is a step in the right direction:

4x Kitchen Finks
4x Exalted Angel

4x Chalice of the Void

3x Cataclysm
3x Expunge

3x Astral Slide
3x Secluded Steppe
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Drifting Meadow
1x Slippery Karst

3x Life from the Loam
4x Eternal Witness
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Unearth

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Mox Diamond

2x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Windswept Heath
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp

zomb,

/flame war on

Slide is worse vs. goblins than Rift is. But you didn't say slide sucks vs. Goblins, you said Slide sucks in Legacy. Which is an entirely different point altogether.

So your point on 'goyf is that he's good if your opponents are going to make him big for you? Look at the cards in this deck. Unless you dredge one the three enchantments or 4-8 artifacts into the yard, goyf will NEVER grow beyond 2/3 or 3/4 at the best without your opponents' help. In case you didn't notice, this deck contains ZERO instants and three enchantments. If I wanted to depend on my opponents' decks to make my cards good I'd just run 40 Gilded Drakes and hope for Reanimator every match.

This deck will not with any kind of reliability make goyfs bigger than 2/3 before turn 5 or 6. I can play creatures that are significantly better than 2/3's for two mana well before turn 5 or 6, so I am at a complete loss to explain why I would want to run said vanilla little early/big late creature in my deck.

Goyf is a great creature, he is good in many, many decks. This isn't one of them. Lets compare Goyf to Angel in this deck

Goyf's advantages:

Can be resurrected by Unearth
Often Big
Costs two mana
can attack on turn two

Angel's Advantages:

Gains Life
Flies
can be accelerated by tomb
can attack unmorphed on turn two
Always big

Given the context of the decks, I like Angel better here. In testing, angel has done more vs. decks like goblins than goyf has.

Aggro_zombies

08-10-2008, 09:08 PM

Well, with your latest list there, things change. Running Tarmogoyf in a deck packing Chalice probably isn't the optimal play simply because you want to have the opportunity to play Chalice at two to counter Goyf.

Ignoring that, though, you're still looking at Tarmogoyf's interactions with your opponent's graveyard incorrectly. Let's say the opponent is playing Threshold, take your pick on the color. If they open with a turn one fetchland, EOT Brainstorm, and you open with some random card that hits the graveyard, Goyf is a 2/3 on turn two at least. Threshold, and blue-based decks in general, are built on the backs of instants like Force, Daze, and Brainstorm. Why not take advantage of that?

EDIT: Accidentally hit the Submit button. Anyways, as I was saying: Threshold's design is such that it can get Tarmogoyf to a 3/4 without ever once interacting with the opponent (Instant, Sorcery, Land). Through interaction, it can often dump a creature in the graveyard on one side of the table or the other, making Goyf a 4/5. Beyond that, it has to rely on its opponent's deck, which isn't such a bad plan when many decks run enchantments (Deed) or artifacts (take your pick of any between Stax or combo). Sure, if you're goldfishing, Tarmogoyf probably isn't tremendously impressive in your deck. Do keep in mind, however, that unless your opponent is playing Energy Field.dec, things will go to the graveyard on their side. And a 3/4 for two is still ahead of the curve, making it especially important for a deck with holes in its early game.

EDIT 2: I also felt I should point out that there is no reason why you can't run Angel and Goyf side-by-side. Using both allows you to realistically race your opponent without ever once needing Slide, which in turn, amazingly enough, eases your dependence on the graveyard. If you're attack for seven every turn, four of which is unblockable and three of which is eating the opponent's guys for breakfast, you couldn't care less if Loam gets Extirpated or Slide gets Gripped.

morgan_coke

08-10-2008, 11:13 PM

Did some testing with the Chalice list. Chalice was either a) incredibly amazing, or b) fairly crappy. I think I like it better as a sideboard card, might just be my personality that I dislike its swinginess. It would be nice to have vs. Thresh main, but given that 90% of their deck is irrelevant to yours, it doesn't really matter that much. Didn't miss Edge of Autumn in the least, but with it gone I think the mana needs to be reworked as the lone swamp isn't doing much on its own and Flagstones is a lot worse with only Cataclysm to play off of. Right now I'm thinking -1 Swamp, -2 Flagstones, +1 Bayou, +1 Windswept, +1 ? Needs to be a colored source I think. I'll test a fourth Heath in that spot for now.

I'm not opposed to running 'Goyfs alongside Angels in the Chalice slot, and I'll give it a try, but then worries about a lack of disruption become much more relevant.

Aggro_zombies

08-11-2008, 12:21 AM

I'm not opposed to running 'Goyfs alongside Angels in the Chalice slot, and I'll give it a try, but then worries about a lack of disruption become much more relevant.
I generally found 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Therapy to be sufficient as disruption when backed up by a reasonable clock. Then again, I used Goyf, Doran, and Finks as my beats, and my only cycling cards were lands. While the deck was more reliant on Life from the Loam to power up Slide, it also cared less if Loam was lost since Goyf and Doran tended to plow through any surviving blockers and end the game.

Using the list that had Chalices in it as a starting point, I'd say that dropping Cataclysm for discard of some sort, or Confinement, would be a start. Cataclysm is cute and can do a lot of damage to some decks, but Slide doesn't really have a problem with most creatures and the pseudo-Armageddon and Tranquility effects are not really relevant against a lot of decks. If you want something to cleanse the board, Akroma's Vengeance may be something to look into because it cycles and EOT delayed Slide triggers still work even in the absence of Slide. Suddenly getting back a Witness and an Angel against your opponent's lands is generally GG. I don't know, maybe I'm just underwhelmed by Cataclysm.

Secondly, Unearth. It's nice, yes, and it gets back downed Goyfs and Witnesses, but other than that it's not very good. When I tested them, I found that they were generally better against control since it forced them to answer all of your threats twice or thrice, even if you couldn't stick a Slide. That said, it was a sideboard card at best. If you cut both Unearth and Cataclysm, you'll have room for Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy. Trimming some other numbers will allow you to run four of both. If you do end up running the discard spells, you should probably go to +2 Bayou since having black mana on turn one becomes much more important.

TheLion

08-11-2008, 10:40 AM

Just a new thought, if this deck leans more against RW:

What about the RW Hedge-Mage from EVE?

2{R/W}
When ~ cipt, you may destroy target enchantment, if you control 2 or more plains.
When ~ cipt, you may destroy target artifact, if you control 2 or more mountains.
2/2

This card seems very strong with slide, though I think it might be difficult, to get 2+ mountains/plains.

BTW: I still like Lightning Rift more than things like Expunge :-)

morgan_coke

08-11-2008, 11:33 AM

I really like the RW Hedge Mage, he's basically Hull Breach on a 2/2 stick if you can get two Plateaus in play.

Even better though, is the GB Hedge Mage. It's like an easier to cast Witness that has a bigger body and tacks on the Ravenous Rats ability.

I tested about 20 games each against Goblins with the previous list running both Tarmogoyf and Chalice in the spare deck slot. Chalice was the better of the two cards. I really, really cannot describe how much I wish Break Asunder wasn't unplayable. Vial is by far the most relevant card in the Goblins matchup. Red builds can just run Scrap or Duergar Hedge Mage to deal with it. Black versions can't. Tarmogoyf mainly made me realize the deck likes another creature, and that Angel sucks just as badly as he does. They're both out of the deck.

The argument against Tarmogoyf in this deck is basically the same argument against Spiritmonger in every deck. Yes, its big. Yes, its above the curve. Yes, it kills people. But that's ALL it does. Hedge Mage is an amazing card. Disrupts the opponent, recurs your stuff, gets resurrected with Unearth.. pretty much all around amazing. And at absolute worst its a bear that gets tombacceled.

The manabase needed some reworking to accomodate Hag Hedge Mage, which leads to this:

4x Bayou
4x Windswept Heath
2x Forest
2x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Secluded Steppe
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Slippery Karst
1x Drifting Meadow
4x Mox Diamond

If you wanted to play like the Hatfield brothers you could ditch the Forests and Plains for 4x Plateau and run the RW Hedge Mage as well, but personally, I just can't disrespect my manabase that much. Also, and more relevantly, depending on how the rules/timestamps are, you might not ever be able to deal with Blood Moon. That manabase does allow you to run Rift though. Actually, you could replace the Tombs with Plateaus. It would cost you acceleration, but allow access to both Mages. I run 4color slide in extended, so I will definitely be using both of these guys there this year.

While looking through the old cycling cards I noticed this:

Rapid Decay
1B
Instant
Remove up to three target cards from a graveyard
Cycling: 2

Can't believe I missed that. This or Loaming Shaman probably belongs maindeck. I'm going to clean up and update the first post.

EDIT: Batwing Brume is also a card that needs to be looked at given that half of the combo decks right now win through the attack phase (tokens!) in addition to all the decks that you know, win by attacking with creatures. People will attack into a fog wall to make you spend mana maintaining it. No one attacks into a Brume wall because it will kill them.

EDIT2: Ran a quick five games vs. gobbos with the list on the first page, 4-1 blowouts. I'm sure the matchup isn't actually that good, but with Hedge-Mage and Therapy attacking Goblins' hand while Finks kept up my life total and everyone blocked, Goblins couldn't reload quick enough or put enough pressure on the Slide deck to mount an effective, continuous offense. The neo-vigilance from Slide was huge, and the Hedge Mage/Witness/Loam combination meant the deck was never short cards to cycle. Hedge Mage with two Bayous out is definitely better than Witness in this deck. Dropping it early to eat removal and Unearthing it later is pretty hawt too.

TheLion

08-11-2008, 04:04 PM

I tested this deck now a few times (though my own RGW version) and found, that u cant affort 3 colors, whily running Ancient Tomb and Chalice...

RW Hedge Mage is hard to support to.

Oh. And Aven Riftwatcher works far better with Slide than Kitchen Finks. And is easier to cast.

I'm now working more on a Chalice/Trinisphere RW Rifter list, maybe with Slide, too... and things like Idyllic Tutor (instead of Enl. Tutor, just to get around Chalice@1), which can search your combo pieces and things like Oblivion Ring, Blood Moon, etc...

georgjorge

08-11-2008, 05:23 PM

If you play without Chalice or Angel, I think there's not much reason to keep the Tombs - just accelerating Slide is not enough, and the deck needs a LOT of colored mana (witness, cycling lands etc). So I'd recommend three Birds instead, since the deck DOES need acceleration.

Also, I think Wall of Blossoms belongs here, as your two-mana slot is very empty (even though you have Mox and Tomb/Birds, you need something).

I was wrong about Shriekmaw...no sliding out. But if you need removal, Bone Shredder fits VERY nicely with Slide, Therapy and Unearth.

Finally, I find Wickerbough Elder to be a tiny bit better here than Indrik - the difference between four and five mana is significant. I wouldn't play those maindeck though.

morgan_coke

08-11-2008, 05:48 PM

TheLion,

I think you're building an entirely different deck now.

georg,

the two mana slot is for skipping, loam, and cycling, in that order. Wall of Blossoms is worse than every other creature already here and worse than every other card already in the deck.

cutting lands for birds won't work because you need the lands for the mox diamonds. Also, this is a list of the cards in the deck with Tomb mana (2 or more colorless) Unearth, Expunge, Slide, Hag, Karst/Meadow, Wicker. That's 19 cards. The deck runs 36 cards that require mana investments. So Tomb directly accelerates over half of the cards in your deck that require mana. Additionally, Tomb often lets you cast two cards with 1mm or 1m casting cost on the same turn. Absolute worst case scenario, tomb taps for 1 colorless and bolts you. That rare drawback is more than offset by the extra speed Tomb provides to the rest of the deck. Birds also don't provide mana the turn they come into play. To get 3 mana on turn 2 with birds you have to play them on turn one, and they have to survive. To get 3 mana on turn 2 with Tomb, you have to play a land, then tomb. Also, tomb allows for the decks most broken plays, like t1 slide, which simply aren't possible without it.

great call on elder, i completely missed that. and you're not wrong about shriekmaw, you can totally slide it out in response to its "sacrifice" trigger going on the stack. you cannot however, sacrifice it to a sorcery speed effect such as cabal therapy.

Aggro_zombies

08-11-2008, 05:54 PM

george, I've tested both Birds and Wall and liked neither. Birds proved to be too fragile, while Wall proved to be too weak - and it can't really block a Goyf and survive without the help of Slide, which is problematic. Instead of those, I tested Wall of Roots and liked it quite a bit. It's relatively easy to ramp Goyf up to a 4/5, but getting it bigger takes a while. In the meantime, your 0/5 Wall can more than handle it. Plus, the Wall can make :g: every turn without tapping and resets itself when Slid out.

And yes, you can Slide out Shriekmaw in response to the Evoke trigger - one of the biggest reasons why Shriekmaw is attractive in this deck in the aggro matchups.

i-never-smile

08-11-2008, 09:42 PM

You guys really should be testing versions with 4 Edge of Autumn, 4 Flagstones, and 2-4 Street Wraith. If the problem with Slide is that Legacy is too fast for it, then include the "free" cyclers to speed it up. This kind of start seems pretty good against thresh, but also realistic:

Turn 1: Cycling Land tapped
Turn 2: Mox (pitch land), Flagstones, Astral Slide. If they went first, you have an opportunity to slide their goyf out with a free cycler and keep card parity while saving life. If you edged here, you just netted a dual land to fix mana or a basic to play around Moon effects, and another land in the graveyard to improve Loam. If you cycled a Wraith instead, then you just traded 2 life for probably 2-3 life, since there's already land in the grave and they probably cantripped on turn 1. Still digging, so it's useful.

This also gets around spell snare, and alternatively you could be sliding out an enemy Dark Confidant on your end turn step to keep it from drawing cards and attacking.

Also, I think the deck could benefit from a splash into black for Raven's Crime from Eventide. Let's face it: Slide has an atrocious combo matchup, but it can be improved with the right disruption tools. Between mana disruption like Wasteland and discard from Raven's Crime (and potentially Thoughtseize or Therapy or whatever), there's some power against combo. It's not going to stop a deck like SI from just going off regardless, but you could also just bring in chalice/sphere effects from the board to survive the early game against combo.

As per the goyf argument: I think there's a valid point for playing Gumbi in any deck that runs green mana, but it's probably more important to start off with a focused machine, tuned to get the slide and/or loam engine(s) up and running as soon as possible. The power of this deck archetype has always been inevitability and card advantage combined with board control. Adding a generic creature (as big as it may be) to this deck is going to dilute it heavily because every slot is important. If there's room, then throw them in the list at the last minute, but don't just focus on Goyf because it's available.

morgan_coke

08-12-2008, 12:35 AM

zomb,

quit agreeing with me, flame war wuz fun

smile,

there are two problems with the edge/flagstones plan.
1) it makes the deck very white - the deck is base green (witness, finks) and wants to make its second color black, mainly just splashing white for teeg and slide.
2) edge of autumn isn't a spell you want to cast early, and you can't cast it late. you don't want to cast it early because its worse than your other acceleration - mox and tomb. if you want a land fetcher you want elder because it affects the board and nukes bridges

wraith suffers from a different problem - it doesn't do anything as a spell. The cyclers in the deck now either tap for mana, recur with loam and enable mox or they resurrect card advantage dudes or the kill stuff. wraith does a much better job at cycling, and speeds the deck up by half a turn, but he also puts more pressure on the life total and doesn't do much of anything besides cycle. That said, i'd love to see a version of the deck that ran him, what did you have in mind?

On another note, i've been testing Raven's Crime in extended (EVE came out on modo today, Hag rulez) and its a devastating effect, pretty much emptying their hand in 1 - 2 turns, but it isn't a 4-of card either and isn't that great in the early game. In other words, it can lock combo out, but it won't stop them from going off.

georgjorge

08-12-2008, 09:00 AM

I'd find a version with Flagstones, Edge and Wraith very interesting - I think not doing anything if not cycyled is fine.

As to Tomb, however: I wouldn't exactly call using Tomb mana to cycle a card "acceleration" - it helps a bit, but it would help a lot more to CAST something on the first and second turn. And the two-mana cyclers would often be reserved for after Slide, in my experience. Hag is also not accelerated by it on the second turn (which is the crucial one) since you need two Bayous (more lands if you draw basics instead). Also, I think the life loss is relevant - imagine playing a fetchland turn one, and a Tomb for Life from the Loam on turn two. You have taken four damage over the first two turns, and will at least take two or four more from Tomb over the game. Doing that against Stompy variants or Tempo Thresh seems very risky to me.

I agree that Birds may not be so good in here, although I think you shouldn't really aim for first turn Slide (rare occasion) but for three mana on turn two for Hag, Finks, or Slide. That's why I think Wall of Roots is too slow (it's the second turn that needs acceleration most. If you don't like Birds, two Chrome Mox maybe (can imprint unneeded cycle cards) ? No synergy, but acceleration.

i-never-smile

08-12-2008, 02:38 PM

Birds are so unreliable. Swords to Plowshares should not double as Stone Rain. But what about Exploration for acceleration? Seems good for a land-heavy deck like this one.

If I were to take a Slide list to a Legacy tournament right now, here's what I would probably bring:

4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Secluded Steppe
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Mox Diamond
3 Exploration

4 Life from the Loam
4 Astral Slide
3 Solitary Confinement

1 Street Wraith
4 Edge of Autumn
2 Decree of Justice

3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Eternal Witness
4 Aven Riftwatcher

I would most definitely splash into a third color if I had time to test and tune the list, but for simplicity's sake I like this build. It has sufficient acceleration to reach 3 mana by turn 2, which is fundamental for the deck. On the play, that's the difference between having slide+free cycler for a turn 1 lackey or having a Riftwatcher available for said lackey. It's also possible to drop a confinement on turn 2 to stay alive and then witness it back and recast it later, or if you're really lucky you hit loam already and you have confinement+loam.

In order to appreciate Edge of Autumn, you really have to just play with it. Even without Flagstones, it's just so good. You have loam, you can afford to throw lands away, and you can even cycle in response to LD spells/wasteland activations. In a tri-color build, cycling a Flagstones will thin your deck, get the color you're missing, and cantrip. If Flagstones tapped for blue mana, 4 edge/4 flagstones would be played in every single Thresh deck.

morgan_coke

08-12-2008, 05:53 PM

updated the first post with new stuff, decklist, and matchup information. also raised the "take xx" number, will be raising that every time I update the first post

smile,

why riftwatcher over finks in that list? you don't run reveillark or tomb, so i don't see what possible advantage the bird gives you over the ouphes. is it the flying?

the thing i don't like about 4 flagstones (and admittedly, its minor) is that they come into play tapped sometimes. when i was running flagstones i usually did it as a 2-of. plus i tended to run out of plains for them pretty quickly. also, you left out the "edge sacs cycling lands i had to play early on" point in its favor. pre-edge i ran rith's grove for that very reason in some old extended builds.

exploration is an interesting idea, takes the deck in kind of an eternal garden direction.

i-never-smile

08-13-2008, 11:24 AM

Riftwatcher is strictly better than Kitchen Finks in Astral Slide. I don't care about having a more aggressive P/T ratio on a creature; I care about my lifegain blocker being able to block fliers and gain me 4 life with each slide as opposed to 2. There's no need for Reveilark to make Riftwatcher better; it's just better by itself for objective reasons.

4 Flagstones will dig out all your plains pretty quickly, but that's not really much of an issue. The key is getting through early turns via free cycling and having Flagstones against LD. I think it's doable to go down to 3, but I wouldn't go below that number with Edge in my deck.

One thing I also forgot about in my list was that I really like Ghost Quarter in a build with Flagstones. The good thing about 4 Flagstones and a couple of Ghost Quarters is that you can pop them to find a basic Plains and another basic land to fight Blood Moon effects, even in response to the Blood Moon itself. Wasteland is better at going LD, but Ghost Quarter gives you that inevitable basic LD with Loam, and Exploration speeds up that process. So I think 2 Ghost Quarter and 2-3 Wasteland is in order for an Edge/Flagstone build.

i-never-smile

08-14-2008, 05:05 AM

Sorry if this looks like a double post, but this is a response to the editing of the original post of this thread.

After reading the newly edited opening post, I think the deck you're running is a bit lackluster. I don't like the Hedge-Mage, even with two Bayous, because Reclaim and Regrowth are miles apart in power level. There's a reason why Witness is ridiculous, and I understand the idea of adding copies 5-8 of it to the deck, but your deck has become extremely graveyard-dependent when it comes to abusing slide. If your opponent Leylines you Turn 0 and counters your Wickerborough Elder, then much of your engine is wrecked. 14 Cyclers in a Slide deck? There's just not enough cyclers to play through graveyard hate, and too much emphasis on running cool tricks as opposed to playing more solid solutions. I like the innovation ideas, but let's remember that the plan is to win the game, whether or not it's elegant.

I do, however, think there is something to be said about the discard of the Hedge-Mage, but perhaps that would be better found in Mesmeric Fiend. With a Slide on the table, you can start permanently removing cards in your opponent's hand from the game each turn thanks to the trigger-stacking trick. Seems a bit weak against creature removal, but it's still Thoughtseize every turn.

One last thing: Why is Finks being played over Hierarch? Turn 2 Slide, turn 3 Hierarch, turn 4 swing+cycle looks like a strong curve for your deck, and Hierarch improves the 2lands. I can understand wanting a more aggressive creature than Riftwatcher, but I think Hierarch just looks stronger in your build. Test it and let me know; I'm curious.

kidsmokin

08-14-2008, 12:13 PM

First time posting, though I have been keeping track for a bit. I have always been a fan of Slide, but especially Nuijten's version that won Worlds, oh, 4 years ago? Mine is slightly similar, I really enjoy playing this one...I call it Elephant Gun because a. it is an awesome song period (it's by Beirut) and b. I run 4x Loxodon Hierarch, probably my favorite card in the world.

Elephant Gun
// Lands
2 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
2 [MR] Plains (3)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Drifting Meadow
1 [US] Slippery Karst
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
3 [10E] Forest (1)
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SH] Wall of Blossoms

// Spells
3 [ON] Astral Slide
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
3 [9E] Wrath of God
2 [JU] Solitary Confinement
3 [JU] Living Wish
1 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
SB: 3 [PS] Orim's Chant

I love Loxodon Hierarch too much not to run 4. Also, I think Living Wish gives the deck a lot of needed flexibility. The only issue with my list is that it is on the slow side, but it's hard to find slots to speed it up any more. I suppose I could relegate a copy each of Hierarch, Witness, and Wall of Blossoms to the SB to open up for Moxen and etc., or Edge of Autumn, which I have yet to test. Also, the gobs matchup looks iffy, because except for Swords T1 lackey kinda kills me hardcore. However, it looks like if they don't have a T1 lackey, I'm pretty set. The SB isn't set into stone, most of it is dedicated to stuff I will likely see. Tivadar looks really random but you board a copy in for Gobs and you have essentially have 4 copies. It seems like overkill but I feel it's worth it.

I have however contemplated running Goyf in the Wall of Blossoms slot, mostly because Blossoms is the weakest card in the deck. Maybe adding black might be nice for the deck, gives combo hate, which by far looks to be the worst matchups in the world for my deck right now. Fiend sounds like a good idea. Of course, I wanted to keep it GW for kicks.

I feel like people run Finks because Persist is a kinda cool mechanic. It "survives" removal but you should be Sliding it out anyways if removal shows up so Lox will end up being fatter and gain you more life.

morgan_coke

08-14-2008, 05:24 PM

Made some minor changes to the board, replaced Wheel with Leyline, experimenting with other options in the Brume slot, namely various mixes of Deed, e.e., echoing decay, and decree of pain. also looking at thorn/sphere of res/winter orb in the 3sphere slot.

I switched from wheel to leyline mainly because of turn zero issues with combo/ichorid etc.

I think i like decay best in the removal/aggro slot since it deals with EtW, goblins, and ichorids/zombie tokens, and it lets the deck kill dark confidant, which is huge, because otherwise your only real answer is turn-by-turn sliding or baiting him into a fight. This is one of those times where I'm reminded how annoying it is that Ichor Slick is a sorcery instead of an instant. Heck, I would've played it at -2/-2 if it had only been instantyspeedy. If there were another two open slots in the deck I'd probably run 3x Sicken/3x Expunge instead of the current 4/0 split even though sicken only really hits lackey and bob, they're worth the killing.

I think goblins is just going to be a bad matchup, and I also think I'm ok with that as long as it stays in the 40/60 range where you have a fighting chance. And Chalice on the play victories almost guarantee that by themselves.

Threshold, at least the lists I've been testing against, are essentially byes, which imho makes up for the goblins issues.

Chalice/Leyline/Decay/3sphere slot/Hag all combine to make combo a good matchup.

With Landstill the main issue is Humility. Because it turns off your enchantment hate and there isn't room for monastery in this deck, it basically means you're trying to beat them with 1/1's. You still get comes into play abilities though, which is nice, but not enough. So I'm also switching the Wickerboughs back to Indriks, with a small possibility of Harmonics. I can think of a situation where Indrik makes you win and Wickerbough makes you lose (Humility), I can't think of one where the opposite is true. God I wish Break Asunder was a 2G instant instead of a 2GG sorcery.

Reclaim is a lot worse than Regrowth, no doubt about it. But sometimes you really just want to draw another Expunge and there's two in your graveyard and it's like: Yeaus! Also, the fact that it's a "may" instead of a "must" is huge because sometimes I'd rather draw a random card than anything in my yard, and Hag lets you do that too. But yeah, the Hag's Ravenous Rats impersonation is her best quality since it just gives you silly card advantage vs. controllish type decks. I've played the Rats in Slide before, and it is honestly a bit embarrassing to play with a card like that, but when it comes down and slides twice and you've 3-1'd your opponent in one turn, you start feeling a bit better about it. I think I will try cutting her down to a 3-of, and cutting an Indrik since its a "must" and not a "may" and doing the Expunge/Sicken split thing.

I know Sicken is a one-drop, and the deck loves chalice@1, but two points 1. like unearth, its so good that its worth being dead sometimes, and 2. it cycles for 2, so I don't really care if i can't cast it. Also, since this pushes the number of "cyclers for 2" up to 8, its time to ditch the saga lands for more 1-mana cyclers.

Finally, addressing the Finks/Riftwatcher/Hierarch question, Finks seems the best to me because of Persist. The reason persist is so strong is because they HAVE to kill it twice. So when you throw down a blocker and NEED to block something, it almost always will. Plus, persist is reset by slide, which is beyond nifty. However, I will try a 2/2 split just to make sure I'm not missing something important.

Kidsmokin,

You definitely want some Mox Diamonds in that list, and you would also benefit a lot from some Nantuko Monasteries. Your manabase is really stable with only two colors, so a few massive manlands won't hurt anything and should help out in a lot of situations. One or two Flagstones seem like a no-drawback inclusion as well. Also, how are you having trouble with Gobs? I don't LIKE Solitary Confinement, but it does beat goblins game like a rodeo clown in a cheap motel room. I also like the wishable Wasteland in the board.

Rush

08-14-2008, 06:11 PM

@Morgan: I would try running Plow Under in your sideboard for Landstill. Eternal Witness + Slide + Plow Under is savage tech against them. They really hate it when you do that. As for the goblins issue, you could always run Fog effects vs. Gobblins, they aren't a fan when you keep sliding Witness for Fog while swinging with Angels.

@Everyone: Have any of you tried Rendclaw Trow or Grazing Kelpie? I could see both being useful as you can, like with Finks, slide them out after Persist has happened, and get them back without the -1/-1 counter, allowing them to Persist again. Also, are I've been out of the loop for awhile. Are the rules still so you can Slide out creatures during the beginning of the End of Turn phase and they will not come back for an entire turn?

kidsmokin

08-14-2008, 09:33 PM

Kidsmokin,

You definitely want some Mox Diamonds in that list, and you would also benefit a lot from some Nantuko Monasteries. Your manabase is really stable with only two colors, so a few massive manlands won't hurt anything and should help out in a lot of situations. One or two Flagstones seem like a no-drawback inclusion as well. Also, how are you having trouble with Gobs? I don't LIKE Solitary Confinement, but it does beat goblins game like a rodeo clown in a cheap motel room. I also like the wishable Wasteland in the board.

I haven't been able to test the matchup as much as I should, but the results haven't been too pretty considering the couple matches I've had. I suppose it's most been one of absolutely rotten luck, i.e. I haven't drawn a single Confinement when it was proper (e.g. Confinement without Loam or vice versa) so the Gobs has been rough. One time I got it, but then they Gripped it (it was a game 2), untapped and won. Not too happy. I will test further, and hopefully I can ship the Tivadar's out of the SB for something better.

I can fit the manlands in easy (good decision, I needed some extra power) but I'm not sure as to how the Moxen will fit. -1 Hierarch, -1 Wall of Blossoms, and I suppose a Forest? I can ship an Hierarch to the sideboard methinks and replace a Tivadar...the more I think about it I have just been unlucky so perhaps only one is needed. I'm not certain as to the third cut, seems a little weird to cut a land, even if Loam is there.

Regarding Rendclaw Trow, I feel like it's body is too small for what it does. Sure, a 2/2 Wither dude is not a bad thing, but in Legacy it can't really tussle with a lot of creatures and win. Basically Lackey, a few other Gobs, non-Threshold-ed Mongeese. Then with Persist you're going to have it as a 1/1 for awhile, and that kind of body just doesn't seem worth it.

Regarding the Kelpie, Loaming Shaman >>>>> Kelpie. What's the point of saccing to put one card, when you can play it for the whole graveyard?

morgan_coke

08-14-2008, 10:37 PM

Just had a completely random thought I figured I'd run by everyone here, what do you all think of this potential change to the maindeck listed in the first post:

-1 Astral Slide, -1 Indrik Stomphowler, -1 Life from the Loam, -1 Plains, +1 Tundra, +1 Volrath's Stronghold, +2 Intuition.

While you could set up some stupid intuition piles with this deck, that puts you down to just 3 basics and pushes the manabase just as far (perhaps farther) than I'm willing to take it. It also smacks loudly of danger of cool things that fall apart in the face of disruption.

The blue is very consistent if you need it (4 heath, 1 tundra, 4 diamonds), but also very vulnerable.

I also wouldn't be opposed to cutting the third Hag with that change and running a Wasteland or Genesis or what not in that slot. But again, I'm not sure that it actually helps you WIN any games you wouldn't already, and it definitely makes you more vulnerable in other situations, so its usefulness is very suspect to me.

Just figured I'd see what other people thought of it as a concept.

Rush

08-15-2008, 12:25 AM

kidsmokin

08-15-2008, 12:01 PM

@kidsmokin: Honestly, I was just trying to think of some other Persist creatures that would be useful, however, it occurs to me now that with Slide, you don't need Persist.

@morgan_coke: I don't see why you would run Intuition. It only thins your deck, and what do you do if you Intuition for your only 3 Slides and your opponent simply destroys the one you get into play?

@Rush: Yeah, I really didn't mean for it to come off that way, but I don't see any good Persist creatures outside of Finks and perhaps Murderous Redcap (though it's strictly worse than Flametongue Kavu). Slide invalidates Finks to an extent, and Loxodon's good fatness makes it better when it comes to walling up or going on the offensive, plus you gain more life from it.

@morgan_coke: I really don't like Intuition in the deck, you're already stretching 3 colors and a 4th will basically own you. It's simply a consistency issue. You're going to be hard-pressed to find your proper colors, even with all the cycling and fetches, and then you're susceptible to Wasteland. While Loam helps in a certain respect, you're going to fight an uphill battle. I think the Intuition package is really supposed to be Volrath's Stronghold, Witness and Slide, however. Giving you Witness lets you recur Slide, Slide is what you want, Stronghold gives you Witness to get Slide. It's mostly a consistency issue. I understand Landstill can be UWgb or whatnot, but their manabase also gets on the flimsy side and if you eliminate their Crucible you really have a decent shot of a Wasteland/Loam lock (ish), and so the same principle would apply with your deck too.

In terms of my deck, I edited it again. Mox Diamond was a house, so it's staying. Next change will likely be moving a cycling land to the SB and adding a Loam, because sometimes I've found it's A. sometimes hard to locate Loam, and B. sometimes hard to get a lot of cycling going, so the changes will address both issues in a pinch.

One concern I have is the combo game. I have Teeg, which addresses Tendrils and Warrens, but outside of that I really only have Orim's Chant to get me out. Are there any good solutions that I'm not thinking of?

Sanguine Voyeur

08-15-2008, 12:05 PM

Guilded Light can stop a buncha Tendrils while cycling when useless. Abeyance can be Chant five to eight. Pyrostatic Pillar combined with lifegain/burn can put quite a vice on your foe.

EDIT: You're running black, not red. In that case recurring Extirpates combined with Teeg and Chants sounds like it could work.

morgan_coke

08-16-2008, 05:59 PM

Did some more testing. Sicken sucks balls. It's horrible and atrocious and out of the deck. Basically, it was nice the like 2 times it killed a lackey on the play. Otherwise, it was complete and utter crap because it doesn't kill anything else in Goblins besides Lackey. Which is a 4-of. It didn't even do anything vs. Bob, because bob decks run lots of one-drops which you Chalice against. Essentially, even against the decks it was meant to be played for, it was a blank cycler that cost 2. Cut them and put back the 4th expunge, which leaves two open slots. Not at all sure what to put there. Echoing Decay is a possibility (that cards been great for me out of the board, but there are a lot of matchups where its dead, so maybe it should stay in the board), and the other main option I see is adding more disruption, or more beaters. Nantuko Monastery is a prime "beater" candidate since its fast, cheap and works with the entire rest of the deck. Only problem is its graveyard dependent. Some Angels are a possibility, but they really weren't as impressive as you'd have thought the last time they were in here.

Hag Hedge-Mage is another problem child. The more useful of the two effects, discard, is hard to achieve vs. the decks you want it against most because of the land requirements. It would be a different story with a b/g fetch and basic swamps in the deck, but that's not available. The other problem with the discard is that they'll just start discarding stuff they can't cast under chalice first, so you pretty much have to empty their hand before it starts having a real effect. But again, this would be more worth it if the discard was on all the time.

So basically, the deck has five open slots right now, and at least some of them need to be disruption. Gaddock Teeg would be ideal, except that he doesn't get along with Chalice at all, which is kind of a big deal. The blue splash (-1 Plains/Bayou, +1Tundra/Tropical) would let you try to run Meddling Mage, but the mana is still fragile even with help from moxes.

Additionally, Indrik is almost universally worse then Wickerbough... except vs. Humility, where he turns a loss into a win. Not sure what to do about that yet. Suggestions welcome.

So basically, the deck has five open slots, and the prime contenders are in no particular order:

Cranial Extraction (probably not great)
Wasteland (no way to take advantage of it aside from LftL)
Nantuko Monastery (GY dependent)
Gaddock Teeg (conflicts with Chalice mb and Leyline sb)
Meddling Mage (bad mana)
Glittering Wish (slow, bad mana, requires re-worked sideboard)
Living Wish (slow, bad mana, requires re-worked sideboard)

The point on the wishes and mana is simply that hitting their casting costs and whatever you're wishing for on the same turn isn't easy. For example, teeg goes to 1GGW or GWGW. Neither of those is particularly manageable for this deck. The point on Wasteland is that this deck isn't fast or tempo oriented, so if you don't hit wastelock, it only ends up costing you a land drop.

I think mage is the most interesting possibility mainly because i've always wanted to try him with the ability to reset his card. For example, vs. solidarity, he comes down naming High Tide. two turns later, you stick a chalice@1, he goes to the rfg zone and comes back naming cunning wish. Quite possibly more cute than effective though.

I'm not sure what else should be on that list above, though I am pretty sure it should be longer. Very open to anybodies ideas on this because I'm fairly well stuck on this point. Thanks.

Nihil Credo

08-16-2008, 06:58 PM

Additionally, Indrik is almost universally worse then Wickerbough... except vs. Humility, where he turns a loss into a win.
Indrik Stomphowler, Eternal Witness, and all "When this comes into play" creatures do not work under Humility either.

Though at least Indrik doesn't come into play with a -1/-1 counter that immediately kills it.

morgan_coke

08-16-2008, 07:20 PM

Nihil, your post seems to contradict itself. Wickerbough has the same comes into play wording as indrik/witness/etc. Though any wickerboughs already in play would destroy themselves.

It has always been my understanding that the timing on humility has to do with timestamp layers, thats why manlands work under it, they're on different layers.

Witness is an eternal witness when she comes into play, then state-based effects take hold and resolve in the order of their timestamps. I've always understood the comes-into-play effects to be the first layer of timestamp checked. This was done in order to prevent lots of non-sense with not paying comes-into-play costs iirc.

This would make stuff come down, trigger ability, be 1/1, not come down, be 1/1. I'm not at all an expert on layers and timestamps, but that has always been my understanding of how it works.

EDIT: I'm wrong, humility does indeed remove abilities from comes into play. stupid rulez. anyone know how humility does with nantuko vigilante and morph?

TheAardvark

08-16-2008, 07:56 PM

EDIT: I'm wrong, humility does indeed remove abilities from comes into play. stupid rulez. anyone know how humility does with nantuko vigilante and morph?

Well, it's a little confusing, because I have found different answers.

According to one answer, you could play a creature face-down and still pay the morph cost to turn it face-up, because they determined that playing the creature face-down set up a continuous effect. However, I don't think that a creature's "when X is turned face-up" ability would trigger with Humility.

However, according to rule 502.26d: Any time you could play an instant, you may turn a face-down permanent you control face up. To do this, show all players what the permanent’s morph cost will be when the effect ends, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up.

Due to this odd wording, it won't have a "morph cost when the effect ends", because Humility removes that ability. So, you won't be able to turn a creature face-up with Humility in play.

I have no idea which is more recent. I'd try asking Akki or maybe in the Rules forum at MTG Salvation, and actually wait for a judge (they have mutliple L2-3 judges floating around) to respond to know for sure.

Nihil Credo

08-16-2008, 07:59 PM

Nihil, your post seems to contradict itself. Wickerbough has the same comes into play wording as indrik/witness/etc. Though any wickerboughs already in play would destroy themselves.

"As this comes into play" works very differently from "When this comes into play". Humility only deletes the latter.

EDIT: I'm wrong, humility does indeed remove abilities from comes into play. stupid rulez. anyone know how humility does with nantuko vigilante and morph?While Humility is in play creatures lose the Morph text, so you can't turn them face up (and even if you could, they wouldn't have the "When this is turned face up, Disenchant" ability anyway).

Basically, it's no coincidence that even Survival decks rely on spells to get rid of Humility. You'd need a creature that Channels into Disenchant or something, and it hasn't been printed yet.

For more Humility discussion, I refer you to the thread in the Rulings forum.

TheAardvark

08-16-2008, 08:02 PM

Yeah, what Nihil said. As I said, even if you *could* turn it face-up, it wouldn't have the triggered ability due to Humility.

i-never-smile

08-16-2008, 08:59 PM

I'd like to get back onto the topic of what would make Slide viable in Legacy. For starters, I was playing around with the list I posted earlier, and here's some problems:

25 Lands
4 Mox Diamond
3 Exploration

That's 32 cards just devoted to mana in a non-storm deck. Even with lots of cyclers, that's too much. Looking at Morgan_Coke's list on the first page, he has 28 lands. At this point, why even bother with a Slide engine? With Explorations and Witnesses with Intuition/Academy ruins, we might as well just build Eternal Garden or 43 Land decks and scrap the Slide plan. But I'd rather at least try to build a good Slide deck, so here's what I see as necessary:

1. Slide should theoretically own aggro hardcore because Astral Slide itself dominates creatures. Plus, splashing into Rift would put the nail in the coffin against weenie aggro (Goblins in mind). Burn is also beatable due to the large amount of solid lifegain available. It's also really good against aggro-control if you can fight through the counterspells themselves, since Goyf loses to Slide, Dreadnaught really loses to Slide. Counterbalance itself shouldn't be doing much against a lot of 3-4 mana spells anyways, and we out-draw Thresh by far.

2. Vs Combo--Not exactly a good matchup for any slide deck, but when you start factoring Solitary Confinement, Orim's Chant/Abeyance locks with Witness and slide, Gilded Light, and Gaddock Teeg into the picture, the situation is different. It also would be possible to run a blue splash, Meddling Mage out of the board, maindeck Force of Will, Gifts Ungiven and cyclers like Miscalculation and Complicate. Cycling Venser and Trinket Mage couldn't hurt either, potentially with counterbalance out of the board for switch tech vs combo.

That was quite a mouthful.

3. Vs Control--I don't know. I'm not going to worry about this until I can figure out how to handle combo.

I'll work on a blue-splash list in the next day or so.

Valtrix

08-16-2008, 09:30 PM

Keep in mind that with the hedge mage you can completely shut them out of playing all non-instants by cycling something after they draw and when you get priority during their draw step. Like a virtual orim's chant. However, I think black is a pretty weak color here, and I actually wouldn't want to have to worry about 2 swamps in order to make it have an effect. Yet, since you can stack a cycling card on top of your deck every time you play him as well, it might not be completely terrible. I'd like to see how he plays.

Also, about the "old stuff" on the first post--Chalice at one still counters Orim's chant. Paying an extra cost doesn't change the converted mana cost of the card.

Also, sicken is a very weak choice, even as a cycler. I'd run more cycling land before that crap =/

morgan_coke

08-16-2008, 10:14 PM

I have 28 lands in that list? Should be only 24. Which really works out to 12 - 4 tomb, 4 bayou, 4 basic + 4 diamonds, so 16.

I came up with a formula awhile ago called mana density that covers how and when land isn't land in a deck. Like in slide, the cyclers are really cantrips that can be played as a land if you're desperate. Kind of like how wasteland is listed as a "spell" in some decks. Here's a link if you want to read: warning, lots of math.

mana article link (http://mtgsalvation.com/500-mtgsclassics-tmm2.html)

control really isn't much of an issue for most witness/slide/loam decks. You're both pseudo control decks with lock elements. slide draws more cards and has more mana. mana advantage+card advantage are what most control mirrors come down to. advantage: slide.

Its like this: landstill thinks they're cool because they have a 1U enchantment that conditionally allows them to draw three cards. Slide is cool because it has a self-recurring sorcery that draws three cards. (usually two cantrips and a land, but sometimes not)

slides problem vs. combo has always been the same as deadguys. disruption isn't the issue, kill speed is. Thresh owns combo because its pressure + disruption. Slide has and always has had tons of disruption, pressure is something else. For another example of a deck that loses to combo despite heavy disruption, see BW Deadguy. Much as I dislike Goyf, that is the main thing he brings to the table, a way to pressure combo. The original version of this deck didn't put anything besides lands and sorcerys in the yard, goyf was a 2/3 here. Now its got more artifacts and instants, so that may have changed.

valtrix,

hedge mage plays awesome when you've got two swamps, and crappy when you don't. see about two posts up and i talk about it more. same on sicken.

I need to update the first post, and this one should be longer, but I'm late for a party so I'll do it tomorrow. Thanks for the rules clarifications everyone.

morgan_coke

08-18-2008, 06:18 AM

double posting because i did a massive update on the first post including new testing results.

'goyf is currently in the deck, and he has managed to make two out of the three matches I tested worse. Needs to be replaced with a creature that does something. Unfortunately I don't know what that creature is. Right now it's on track to be Wickerbough/Break Asunder + Krosan Tusker.

Also, a hardcast Decree of Pain is just unreal. Just thought I'd share that I hardast one.

eq.firemind

08-19-2008, 09:09 AM

Hi people! My first post here on The Source!

I'm not very expirienced with Slide, so don't judge my words very critically.

Idea about Sideboard:
Offalsnout. My favorite gravehate. Kills Dredge for 1 mana instant speed (removes all their bridges and 1 more card like Ichorid). Works with Slide. Works with Eternal Witness/Volrath's Stronghold without Slide. I think to replace 4 Leyline(it's cool if you are lucky. Hardcast it on turn 3 in not an option and mulligan totally kills your already hard early play) and 3 Echoing Decay(kills zombie tokens, but not bridges and we already have 3-sphere against storm combos) with just 3 dudes. I think 5 grave-hate is enough. And tear apart that Break Asunder! It can be countered when you try to kill their goddamn Humility and it can't kill attacking Factory. With free slots in Sideboard you can add 3 Grips and some more things.

gosumog

08-19-2008, 02:17 PM

That hybrid guy would be good, and other black cards have synergy with this deck like

grinning demon
tombstalker
street wraith
confidant
therapy, talk about fixing combo match. turn 1 diamond mox > thoughtseize + therapy / therapy + therapy
smallpox

stalker is already immune to almost every removal, with slide its not even fair

i think slide should quit trying to be control, and just be aggro/control =P

gosumog

08-20-2008, 02:22 AM

heres a list i tested a bit, seems alright. the land base is trash though, i just threw it together

// Lands
4 Mox Diamond

4 Barren Moor
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
1 bloodstained mire

// Creatures
2 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Grinning demon
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Street Wraith

// Spells
1 Unearth
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Life from the Loam
4 Astral Slide

morgan_coke

08-24-2008, 01:45 AM

updated first post with new list, added new matchup testings, utilizing hope/pray on more for this deck from shards of alara.

eq.firemind,

welcome to the source. Offalsnout is only good against dredge, leyline has use against various combo decks as well. in slide, versatility generally trumps specificity.

gosumog,

Not a grinning demon fan, there are better creatures you could run here for the same costs in time and mana.

Rush

08-29-2008, 01:56 AM

Have any of you tried Mangara of Corondor in this deck? I would assume it would make for a nice lock with Slide.

The Rack

08-29-2008, 02:00 AM

Mangara is cute with slide, but he's not good. You need Mangara, a turn after he comes into play, a cycling creature, hope they don't have removal, and a mana open to kill one of their things. I think that you would be investing way too much just to get Bolted or Plowed with no effect.

thefreakaccident

08-29-2008, 02:10 AM

A friend of mine recently tested slide for a little while, but he added mulldrifters and shriekmaws... I think an ancestral recall for :g: is pretty sweet, even if it isn't extremely competitive, it was pretty cool.

morgan_coke

08-29-2008, 04:45 PM

Mangara is bad in this deck for the following reaons:

1) Speed. A one toughness creature with a great tap ability surviving a whole turn is unlikely.
2) On-own-ness. Mangara is actually worse than Vindicate on his own even if he lives to untap because he removes himself from the game and can't be re-used with Witness.
3) Mana Cost. As currently configured, 1WW isn't a great cc for this deck.

TFA

Shriek is good against goblins, but Decree is better. Shriek isn't really good against anything besides Goblins, DoP is.

Mulldrifter is cute, but Loam and witness both draw more cards and are on color. Effectiveness/Raw power/winning games > Cute.

BlindMage

08-29-2008, 04:58 PM

Someone mentioned that they thought Slide decks should stop trying to be control, and start playing aggro-control instead. Well, allow me to share the list that I played at GenCon this year. I actually tried to start a separate thread for this deck because it plays very differently than traditional slide, IMHO, but nobody looked at it. Anyway, I went 3-2-1 with this before I dropped with 2 rounds left to play, losing to belcher in a blowout, and to landstill in two close games with a slightly earlier version. This is the current version:

W/r Electric Slide

Lands: 23
4 Plateau
3 Secluded Steppe
2 Forgotten Cave
2 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
6 Plains
3 Mountain

Creatures: 15
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Duergar Hedge Mage
2 Eternal Dragon

Other Spells: 22
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Gilded Light
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Rune of Protection: Green
4 Astral Slide
3 Starstorm

Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Renewed Faith
2 Morningtide
2 Duergar Hedge Mage
2 Flametongue Kavu

Brief Matchup Analysis:

My testing is by no means comprehensive, but I'll share with you all the results of what I have done.

Threshold: 65-35. This matchup is really good for a few reasons. This deck has a reletively easy time answering their threats, and has a large number of must-counter spells for them to worry about, even if countertop is active. They bascially can't win if you resolve Slide unless you wind up cycler-starved, and Jotun Grunt will keep them from ever having Threshold, and keep goyf to a manageable size while allowing you to shuffle business back into your deck. Sideboard: -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Gilded Light, -1 whatever; +3 Red Elemental Blast, +3 Renewed Faith, +2 Duergar Hedge Mage(vs countertop builds) or +2 Flametongue Kavu(vs tempo builds)

Goblins: 80-20. This matchup is a a complete beating. 4 Swords, 4 Bolts, 3 Starstorm, 3 Lavamancer, and 2 Jitte, plus Slide itself makes this an absolute nightmare for the goblins player. Sideboard: -2 Rune of Protection: Green, -3 Gilded Light; +2 Flametongue Kavu, +3 Renewed Faith.

Storm Combo: 40-60. This may be a bit optimistic. It was godawful before I had maindeck Gilded Light or SB Chalice, and I haven't been able to test much since making that change. Sideboard: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 RoP:G or Lightning Bolt; +3 Chalice of the Void, +3 Red Elemental Blast. I might bring in Renewed Faith as well vs a tendrils kill.

Ichorid: Untested. I expect it would be pretty rough unless you can get a very quick Grunt. I would try to buy time by swordsing and later sliding ichorids. Sideboard: -3 Gilded Light, -RoP:G, -2 Duergar Hedge Mage; +3 Renewed Faith, +2 Morningtide, +2 Flametongue Kavu.

AggroLoam: Untested, but I imagine it would be pretty good for a lot of the reasons the thresh matchup is good. Sideboarding would be similar except I would bring in Morningtides instead of Hedge Mages.

Landstill: Mostly untested, but probably something like 60-40. It is possible for them to just answer everything you play as you play it, but you also have a lot of great tools against them (Finks is rough, as is Grim Lavamancer, and Starstorm can kill manlands). Overall, this match is heavily dependent on Slide. Slide+a creature+cyclers = GG. Eternal Dragon is also, of course, excellent. Sideboard: -3 Swords to Plowshares, -2 RoP:G; +3 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Duergar Hedge Mage.

Thanks for reading. I'd be interested to hear what the rest of you think about this approach to using Astral Slide in Legacy. I tried to design a deck that would be good without Slide, and unstoppable with it.

Rush

08-29-2008, 06:44 PM

Morgan: You apparently don't understand the trick with Mangara. You put it's ability on the stack, then you slide it out. The card works best vs. Stompy-type decks (Angel, Dragon, or Faerie). Honestly, I personally wouldn't use him in the main. That being said, I WOULD run Living Wish and keep him as a target. I would also put a Shriekmaw in the Wish board. About Decree of Pain, it's nice, but what decks are you using it against? I haven't seen all too many decks in the current format that Decree would be a board sweeper against if cycled, and if not cycled, well, that's too much mana. Have you thought about Akroma's Vengeance? It cycles when it needs to be and for 1 more mana it sweeps the board. Of course I know it kills an in play Slide and can be countered, but I think you should give it a try, especially since it helps to correct the Black mana problem you seem to be having. About Offalsnout, again, you don't seem to understand the point of Slide. With Offalsnout, you can evoke it, then Slide it when it's sacrificing ability is on the stack.

@Everyone: Alright, so how mana intensive is this deck? I would assume it is quite intensive. If so, I would suggest 2 cards: Edge of Autumn and Solemn Simulacrum. Edge of Autumn would seem like a fantastic card for the deck for 3 reasons. First, it helps accelerate a deck that appears to have a high mana curve. Second, it doesn't have a mana cost to cycle it. Third, how many times have you said to yourself, "If only that [cycling land] was in my graveyard?" Solemn Simulacrum doesn't have quite the same benefits, but every time he slides he accelerates your base, thins your deck, and gives you a card. Thoughts?

EDIT:@Morgan: I see you originally had Edge of Autumn but took it out. Why? Mox Diamond gets taken out by a large portion of permanent removal spells that see play in Legacy. Additionally, Edge cycles and gets rid of Cycling lands you had to play. Finally, with your current build, Life from the Loam is the only 2CC card in your deck, meaning Mox Diamond is essentially worthless, while Edge of Autumn helps you whether your mana screwed or mana flooded.

morgan_coke

08-29-2008, 07:21 PM

Blindmage,

3-2-1, hey, at least you were over .500, right?

I do have some questions though. Why Grim Lavamancer over Lightning Rift?

Also, and this is something I've wondered about for awhile, if you're going with a red/Rifter shell, why not just run a Rifter build and splash green for 4x Tarmogoyf, 3x Loam? It wouldn't take much of a green splash to do that (2x Savannah, 1x Forest maybe?) and it would seem to address the two most significant issues facing the Rifter shell, Kill Speed and Pure Card Advantage.

(and yes, that green splash does leave out witness)

Also, your Aggroloam matchup with that build will be bad. Devastating Dreams is abusive vs. Slide w/out artifact mana.

Rush,

I get how the Mangara "combo" works, it's just not good enough for all the reasons listed above. Death and Taxes can profitably abuse Mangara in a lot of ways and doesn't have better options for that effect. Slide can't and does respectively.

Decree of Pain is very good vs. Goblins and Landstill, and occasionally Ichorid if you live long enough to get the mana for it up (t3 at the earliest). DoP's instant-speedyness is the key to its success. Wrathing Goblins during their attack phase is devastating to them, wrathing them on your turn, not so much. Cycled decree kills the following things in this format: EtW tokens, Zombie tokens, Goblins, Trinket Mage, Dark Confidant, Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Soldier tokens, Hypnotic Specter, Venser, Faerie tokens.. The only things that are commonly played that cycled decree doesn't kill are Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Mystic Enforcer, and Doran. And Decree hardcasts for only two more mana than Vengeance with a much swingier effect and no regeneration.

Vengeance is bad here because it wipes out your moxen and chalices. When your opponent does that, you deal, but there's no reason for you to do it for them.

The point of Offalsnout in most decks is that it removes all of the opponents' BfB's by dying and hits another card in their graveyard with it's leaves play ability. Sliding it out in response to the sacrifice trigger doesn't kill the Bridges. If you just wan't slideable gy hate, Loaming Shaman is a better, more versatile option.

Mox Diamond > Edge of Autumn. Mox provides color fixing, provides mana on the turn it comes into play, and can be used lategame for mana. Mox gets around Moon and Armageddon effects and enables truly broken plays like t1 Slide, t2 Hierarch. Edge doesn't. But you are right, the deck is very mana intensive, that's why it runs the 8 accelerants. Mox also provides another way to drop a Chalice@1 on turn one, which is probably the strongest move to make on the play in all of Legacy right now.

I've experimented with both Glittering and Living Wish and haven't had much success with them. I am interesed in hearing your thoughts on it though. What do you suggest cutting for them and what kind of targets were you thinking of for which matchups?

BlindMage

08-30-2008, 01:18 PM

@morgan:

I'd like to emphatically state that the deck I built is NOT Rifter. I've played Rifter before as well, and while I can see why just looking at the decklist a person would think it was a Rifter variant, it plays much differently.

I've had a few other people ask me about the choice of Grim Lavamancer over Lightning Rift. First of all, because Lightning Rift doesn't do anything by itself and Grim Lavamancer does, second because rift can't take a jitte into the red zone or chump a goyf, and third because it comes down a turn sooner and is less demanding in terms of mana.

About the green splash: Rifter certainly has problems with kill speed, but Electric Slide does not. Jotun Grunt is a strong answer to Tarmogoyf, and he and Kitchen Finks are perfectly capable of ending most games in a timely fashion, especially with burn and jitte support. I realize that doesn't address the issue of pure card advantage (though jitte can generate that), but Finks, Lavamancer, Starstorm, and Eternal Dragon can all generate card advantage, and Jotun Grunt improves card quality in longer games by letting you shuffle business back into your deck while putting junk back in theirs.

AggroLoam: Like I said, it's untested, so you might be right. On the other hand, this deck usually does have a problem hitting land drops if it needs to (23 lands in the deck, 2 Eternal Dragons, 8 other cyclers), while at the same time being able to run pretty comfortably on just 3 lands.

At any rate, if you're interested in Legacy Astral Slide, I encourage you to shuffle it up and test it some. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Rush

08-31-2008, 06:56 PM

About adding the Wishes, the first card I would chop would be Wickerbough, then move them to the Wishboard. I would chop a Witness and move it to the Wishboard. Finally, I would probably only run 3 Living Wish or drop one of your Decree of Pain. I looked at your deck again and realized that Edge would be a pitiful card in a deck running only 4 Basic Lands. Have you tried Deed in the place of the Pains? It only has B in its cost as opposed to Pain's BB cost. I would also see it hitting Ichi much harder. Two problems, I know, it can be countered and it destroys your own permanents. In both cases, essentially running 7 Witnesses with the Wishes would *hopefully* solve this problem, at least to some decree. About Offalsnout, I would agree Loaming Shaman would be better, and the Wishes would make it better yet.

morgan_coke

08-31-2008, 08:35 PM

Rush,

Just What the HELL are you smoking? Pull Wickerboughs, one witness and a DoP for 4x Living/Glittering Wish??? That's just... a really, really good idea actually. So good I "wish" I'd seen it myself. God I suck at writing humor into these things.

That does, however, require completely re-working the sideboard. There needs to be one anti-goblin slot to replace the Decree you just lost, probably want something for the graveyard and lands too. I generally dislike using more than 5-6 slots in the board on wish targets, so lets see here...

1x Eternal Witness
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x anti-goblin/swarm aggro (Tivadar, Gloomdrifter, Tabernacle [dude or land])
1x anti-graveyard (Offalsnout, Loaming Shaman)
1x anti-land (Wasteland, Dust Bowl)
1x anti-control (Genesis, Gigapede, Eternal Dragon, Vexing Shusher, Boseiju)

The stuff in parentheses is just the cards I came up with off the top of my head for those slots. (If I had a gun to my head on them it would be drifter, shaman, dust, giga) Other things that still need to get board slots are some sort of island hate (Tsunami, Choke) and some kind of combo hate (Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere) and some extra graveyard hate (Extirpate, Rapid Decay)

I like Island hate cards because "Land - x, Island" seems to be by far the most common land in Legacy.

I don't like Deed here because you want your chalices around for countering bad stuff. Deed always wipes out your chalices and moxes. Its one thing to lose a slide and a dude to a deed if it really needs to get blown. Losing 5+ permanents to your own Deed is something else entirely.

Blindmage,

I'll make time to test it out and get back to you after I do.

EDIT:

ORB OF INSIGHT HAS 13 INSTANCES OF "CYCLING" WOO HOO!

Rush

08-31-2008, 10:51 PM

Dust Bowl makes no since. If it said: Destroy target land, then yes, but as is, no, especially when you can keep Loaming a Wasteland back to your hand. That engine requires a 1G input compared to the 4G input for Dust Bowl. As for Wish Boards, I try to run 7 Wish targets + 2 general hosers for the format (I'd say Grip and something else). If I were you personally, I would start with:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Loaming Shaman
1 Witness
1 Hierarch

This beginning sideboard runs 2 cards that hose much of the format. Additionally, you now have 5 open slots for more cards. I would highly suggest Tombstalker or Akroma, Angel of Fury (I'd say Akroma since you can play him for his facedown value, then Slide him and he'll come back flipped). In fact, have you tried Akroma or Sexy mained? Playing them facedown then sliding them out to come back into play seems like a sexy thing to do. These are all just ideas, though. Hell, I'd say Sexy should take the place of Hierarch. Sure it doesn't automatically give you life, but it does make a great play with slide AND has evasion, which is uber sexy. I know WW seems bad, but I think you could play it when you need it. Just a few thoughts though.

As for Deed, I didn't see the Chalice. They were hidden at the bottom.

Rush

09-01-2008, 10:41 AM

By the way, this is just a random question, but if Slide and Chalice are so ubber important for this deck, why are you not running Enlightened Tutors?

morgan_coke

09-01-2008, 01:27 PM

Updated first post with new list.

Dust Bowl beats Wasteland in a control deck with loam because as long as you're drawing lands you can keep them, or work on, waste-locking them. In slide it kills off your early played cycle lands if you don't want them to stay in play, and it means you don't have to loam every single turn to keep the lock going.

Macabre > Loaming Shaman. Can't believe I forgot about that card.

E. Tutor clashes with Chalice@1 horrifically. E. Tutor also gets countered by every counterbalance EVAR. It would also be the decks only one drop in a deck that strives to skip the one drop step and thereby gain an advantage.

Right now the Wish targets consist of:
4x Macabre, 1x Witness, 1x Wickerbough, 1x Gigapede, 1x Dust Bowl, 1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. I'm starting to think the 'pede should be something else, Dragon maybe? Open to suggestions. Also not really liking 3sphere, would much prefer a couple of anti-combo critters in that slot, but aside from Teeg, I don't know that there's anything available in B/G/W for that role that isn't horrifically slow (Cabal Interrogator/Sadistic Hypnotist?)

Rush

09-02-2008, 10:00 AM

Could your deck support Hippie? Have you thought about Stalker?

Dark_Cynic87

09-02-2008, 04:08 PM

Teeg isn't very good against combo. I play combo, and Teeg is easily dealt with. Wipe Away main that's tutorable for is just sick, especially since FT runs D-Day and can grab it in their 5-card stack and play it right before they need to play Tendrils. It's no good against SpringTide/Solidarity because they can counter it or ignore it, as the only card it hits against Spring Tide is Turnabout, but they run wishes to grab bounce, and I'm fairly certain that Solidarity says "whatever, I still win". Belcher says "I combo'ed the turn before you can play it, so I'll just smack you around with 10-12 goblins for the next 2 turns and win anyway".

Trinisphere is the best answer to combo by far, followed by Chalice @ 1, and Blood Moon can hurt a couple combo builds, but not hugely.

Creature-wise, I think the best combo hate is Aven Mindcensor. It screws with combo's most important aspect-tutoring. Faerie Macabre *could* be useful, but I think overall it's not better than Extirpate-->E. Witness-->Extirpate so on and so forth.

Against combo I think it wisest to just side out Slides//LftL's as they are pointless in the matchup. This can give you room to put in Chants/Extirpates/Censors/3sphere/Chalice--Whatever hate you are running. I recommend Chant and Censors if there's lots of storm, Extirpates and 3spheres if you see lots of Ichorid. Needles work well against Belcher, as do Chants if they go EtW on you. A chant in response to a Burning Wish against TES can normally swing the game towards a positive game for you. I like Extirpate over Offalsnout (although he's a legit Wish target) because 'Pate is good against more than just Ichorid. 'Pate can hit a set of Forces, or their Goyfs or LftL or whatever. It's just an all-around badass card. Krosan Grips are absolutely necessary in the board, but Wispmare kicks ass. This is a graveyard-based list, and it's important to remember that a single Wispmare in your sideboard gives you Grips #3-4 through 7-8, depending on how many Grips and Wishes you run.

About Tokens: EE people. EE is the best EtW killer, Zombie Killer, and it's good against Goblins as well. Can wipe out those pesky un-Slideable Mongeese for 3 mana. It's reuseable as everything else in this list, which means it can make them go Ichorid Beats, which against slide is just a hoot. They run out of critters and you laugh. Not to mention Sliding out 1x Aven Riftwatcher nets you 4x life just by blocking an Ichorid, which means it nets you 1 life for every 2x Ichorid they send swinging at you. You can run Echoing Decay as mentioned hitting tokens OR Ichorid as it's an instant. Also forgotten I think is Plague Spitter, which kills Goblin Tokens and goblins in general, not allowing them to block, shuts down Lackey and etc. and don't argue with me about 3cc spells, as it's common knowledge that 3 mana isn't hard to generate by turn 2. I understand it's not completely useful against Belcher, but then again, not much is. If you use a wishboard, it's a cool choice to go turn 1 living wish turn 2 Plague Spitter because turn 3 when it kicks in, they've dropped 3-4 creatures, and can really slow them down.

I think a card that people have forgotten about here is Edge of Autumn in reference to the Dust Bowl argument. It's my opinion that for the pure sake of getting your cycling lands into your yard from play, it's the best. It can really screw with your opponent's combat math as you don't need mana left open to cycle, while still being good early game by grabbing you your basics, which can REALLY be helpful.

E. Dragon >>> Gigapede >>> Tombstalker. Honestly.

Wrath of God is still the best removal for this deck in my opinion. WW isn't horrible, especially if you run the version with Diamonds. StP is still arguably the best spot-removal in the game and it's on color. It should be included, especially since everything is reuseable. Hell, you can StP your own Goyf and then Wish it back, buying you a turn. It's good against unprotected Tendrils combo such as some versions of SI/QSI, as it can mess them up to let you win. They go the nuts, and in response you StP your biggest creature keeping you alive, and go for the win.

Pce,

--DC

morgan_coke

09-02-2008, 08:28 PM

Dark_Cynic87

09-03-2008, 03:26 PM

DC,

Mindcensor is good combo hate in Vintage and Extended, but in Legacy? Besides Fetchlands, how many search effects do most combo decks run? The only tutors I can think of that get played are Doomsday, Infernal Tutor, Grim Tutor, and Merchant Scroll. Most legacy decks run lots of draw 4s like Meditate and Pacts, or cantrips like Brainstorm, Top, Ponder, and sometimes Impulse.

Tsunami/Choke/Boil are better at disrupting most combo than Mindcensor.

Most legacy decks do NOT run a lot of draw-4s. As far as I'm aware (and that's pretty aware as I pilot FT a LOT, TES once in a while, and Cephalid Breakfast on occasion) the most played by even SI and QSI is 2. They have all adopted the LED+Infernal Tutor route. Clearly it's not perfect, but it's still better than Boil :confused: . Also, you fail to realize just how devastating it can be to Thresh and FT, not to mention landstill, and even goblins. 8x fetches = mana screw (that's 1/2 of the lands played by FT and almost that percentage played by Thresh; furthermore, Spring Tide runs 6/10 with that being Fetches to islands, and then they run a full set of Merchant Scrolls). The point is that while it doesn't shut them down completely, it slows them enough for you to get out of reach of Tendrils-range via Riftwatcher (this is better than Kitchen Finks, no ifs, ands, or buts about it; evasion and double the life-gain)

Chalice and 3sphere are already in the deck and do a pretty good job of arguing against a chant/abeyance/discard setup.

Agreed.

The main advantages of Macabre are that since its free, it works amazingly well with Wish, and as far as dealing with combo, there isn't a better solution to IGG outside of turn 0 leyline. Macabre does an even better job of stopping IGG than FOW. Macabre also comboes with Stronghold and can beat face in a severe pinch. Finally, Macabre can disrupt opponents on their turn 1 even if you're on the draw.

What combo deck are you facing that needs graveyard hate turn 1? Cephalid Breakfast and (mainly) Ichorid? That's fine, but I'm not sure it demands them to be a 4-of...1 to take care of Dread Return/DR targets (a wiser decision), and the second for...? Like I said, I prefer to 'Pate Ichorid. It just makes life easier. I'd rather play 1x to wish for and a full set of Extirpates.

Edge of Autumn used to be in the deck. It got cut for better cards and because it was redundant. Depending on what SoA reveals as far as new cyclers are concerned, that may change. I agree that Dragon > Tombstalker. Dragon and Gigapede vary in usefulness from match to match, but I think with this build Dragon is superior. Gigapede is an experimental anti-control slot that may turn into dragon. Or may not if DoJ gets cut from the maindeck.

I like edge. That's just me. I think in this deck that it's better than Street Wraith. I think going Mox Diamond, land, play it is a good turn 1 play. It allows me to have the mana more often than not for a turn 2 Slide, and also a basic, which is EXTREMELY helpful in a more controlling meta.

E.E. is bad in this deck because of the 8 0cc artifacts it runs. Decay (currently not in the build) costs 1B instead of 2, but is a suprise and doesn't wipe your own board as part of it's resolution.

Well, 4x are in the SB (CotV), and they aren't needed in virtually every matchup that EE is. Blowing up a Diamond is a trivial reason not to run EE as not having a Diamond is better than getting smacked for 27 by an army of hasted pumped-up zombies...You may believe otherwise.

morgan_coke

09-03-2008, 07:32 PM

The Chalices are maindeck. The 3spheres are board. The deck plays a lot of t1 chalice@1 because it has no one-drops of its own.

On the tutors, I'm just going off what I've seen in the threads here on the source. I see a lot more decklists with tons of cantrips and other draw spells than tutors. I don't have the personal experience yet to argue this point with you, so I'll just take your word for it.

Ceph, IGGY, and Ichorid mostly. Also random things with top/locket, though I think in Legacy top/helm is the more common play.

What's your experience vs. Thorn of Amethyst with combo? I like more things I can reliably drop t1, but I don't know if it's strong by itself. BTW, I appreciate the combo perspective in here because that is pretty easily slide's most difficult matchup.

EDIT: trying Windborn Muse in the anti-swarm spot in the board. Like the effect and cc, the three toughness, not so much. Will also check silent arbiter in this slot.

Dark_Cynic87

09-04-2008, 06:56 AM

Sure, Thorn works well in theory. Storm builds require not density but quality out of their cards. Goblins work well because of threat density for example. Storm, however, requires that their cards be of high caliber, and also extremely synergistic. Fetchlands = thinning of library, shuffling of library to make for better draws, getting rid of crap with Brainstorm for a more suitable card for a certain situation, and gets you Threshold for Cabal Ritual and even gets you a better top 3 for Top. The synergy between Top and Doomsday, or between Infernal Tutor and LED, or Top and Mystical Tutor, basically giving you an accumulated 8x Demonic Tutors out of 16 cards, that just happen to be excellent WITHOUT being 2-spell Demonics. In fact, LED paired with Infernal Tutor is actually BETTER than Demonic Tutor as it basically says "Tutor and cast any card in your library for 1B and discarding your hand".

With 1x Thorn out:

Combo turn:
Dark Rit nets: B
Cabal Rit nets: BB THRESHED. Unthreshed it's like playing Manamorphose without the cantrip or the color fixing. It's now just an additional storm count.
Lotus Petal nets: 0. It's just like Cabal Rit.
LED nets: 2.

Infernal Tutor now equals a Grim Tutor IF you are hellbent. If you aren't, it's strictly worse.

Mystical Tutor now costs 1U. The ONLY reason this is ok is that it's an instant, so doing it at end of turn is almost as good, only it almost reads "Tutor for any card you need. Skip your next draw."

You make Top work at a much higher price, and Topping for extra storm is damn near impossible. The only thing that will POSSIBLY save the deck is Helm of Awakening, and that's because it directly counter-acts Thorn, and that's still in your favor as no FT list runs more than 2x Helm, and that's in the board. At best they get one in their opening hand, and that saves them for a bit. They either have to go off before you find Thorn #2 or they have to Grip it and Extirpate it. This means they waste resources just to fight off the hate. The best hate for it in my opinion that FT has is Echoing Truth.

You slow combo down immensely with Trinisphere, Chalice makes it impossible to win in Tandem with it, and Sphere effects...goo. This is scary.

Basically, you make Storm have to generate 10 more mana to combo. That's 17 mana. That's 10 BBB 2U or 10 BBB BBB. This is impossible. That's 4x Dark Rits for BBB B. Now you need more. You MUST have Threshold for Cabal Rit to have ANY effect with just a single Thorn out. Let's say you do.

now you have with ALL 4 C. RITS and ALL 4 DARK RITS:
From D. Rit:BBB B
From THRESHED C. Rit: BBB BBB BB

for a total of 12 black mana. You are still short 5 mana. Let's look at land:

You have to have a black mana source, so lets say Swamp (We run 1x).

Swamp. We still need 5 mana. If you go off turn 4, which is acceptable, this means you at best could have 4 lands. So Swamp and 3x other lands, giving you:

3 BBB BBB BBB BBB

Still need 2x mana, and you can get that from a single LED.

So to combo off, you need:

4x Dark Rit
4x Cabal Rit
4x Lands, one of which has to be black.
1x LED
1x Doomsday
1x SDT

I think at best it would be:
4x Lands
4x Threshed Cabal Rit
4x LED
1x Doomsday
1x SDT

That leaves 11 mana, But that's just to go to the Doomsday pile, not to play it out. That would go:

Stack from top to bottom:
1.) Meditate--3U
2.) LED--1
3.) LED--1
4.) LED--1
5.) Tendrils--5

Also, as far as I'm aware, that's the only stack that would be capable of going off with a Thorn on the board.

That's 12 plus 2 to replay Top, putting it at 14. That's still 3 mana short of going off. The easiest way would be turn 6 for 2x lands and a Dark Rit. Or an additional land and 2x Dark Rit, but how you would get that is beyond me as your hand is two full playsets and Top and Doomsday (in all fairness you would HAVE to use Top way before your combo turn) so you would have to have a hand of 10 or 11.

We are starting to maindeck Duresses//Thoughtseize, so it's not QUITE as scary. We also maindeck some form of hate, be it Grip or Wipe Away. Which now takes 3x Dark Rit and a green source to play or 2x Dark Rit, 2x lands, one of which has to be a Trop, which wastes a fetch as for anything besides K. Grip it's a basic Island.

It's my opinion that a turn 1 Thorn of Amethyst and a recurring wasteland starting turn 2 will single-handedly win you the game against Fetchland Tendrils, and possibly TES if you can get an EE for 0 on the board. If TES doesn't go teh nutz on turn 1, it will work against them. Belcher to a point, but they almost ALWAYS go off in some fashion turn one, so I suggest being a God, win the die roll every time and have 2x lands, a mox and a Thorn in your hand EVERY TIME. Needle works against Belcher and EE is awesome against tokens on the board. Drop if for zero, drop Diamond and a land and blow it up. Don't worry about the Mox, because yes you blew it up, but then again, you 6 for 2'ed them, putting it at a 3 for 1 card advantage. Now they have to rebuild their hand to combo off. By that time you can have a Thorn/3sphere/Chalice down and have a handle on the game.

People will suggest boarding out Astral Slide vs. Combo; I suggest leaving them in and boarding in extra lifegain. This is where either more Aven Riftwatcher or if you already run 4x, Finks. This is the easiest way to beat Tendrils. Beating tokens is done with EE. Beating Belcher is by...luck and a turn 1 thorn. Beating Brain Freeze is done with 1 or 2 Gaea's Blessing, even though shuffling back all your cycling lands and etc. sux. Do not suggest Heirarch to me, as it costs 4. That's to slow, especially since Riftwatcher gains 4 life with each slide just as Heirarch does.

You slow combo down by dropping Thorn turn 1, and then begin stabilizing with Slide gaining craploads of life to get out of Tendrils reach. Between Thorn and lots of life, the only way they can win is by double-Tendrils, which will be damn near impossible with a Thorn.

I didn't even mention Chalice through this whole post, and it's a real pain.

Removal of swarm >>>>>>>> stopping swarm. Goblins run Warren Wierding, which *Can* kill Muse, and they also run Incinerator, which WILL kill Muse. I know you like creatures, but a recurring EE via Witness is just as scary for them. Not to mention it takes out TES's moxen as well, and also LED.

My list runs 8x fetches, 2x IT, 4x Mystical (although some lists are starting to use 1 or no Mysticals in favor of Lim-Dul's Vault, which gets around Mindcensor), 3x Doomsday. That's 17 tutors--over a quarter of my list. Mana screw me and rape me on finding an answer in any acceptable amount of time. Sounds good.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask. I'm working on getting a list together, and it's going to be WGb, although I REALLY want blue in it. Stifle is good, and Miscalculate cycles as well as Rune Snags. Seems versatile, and it just needs to be a splash. I haven't looked at creatures, but there has to be something decent other than the ever-redundant Blue evoker that draws two cards (fuckin' forgot it's name...It's 5 in the morning and I haven't gone to bed yet). It will probably look closer to Landstill than you can imagine.

/storm

Now, on a different note, there's a new creature from Eventide. It's a Loam effect on a treefolk. I think that it's an answer to Extirpate. Run one as a singleton possibly for loam #4 or #5 depending on how many you play. I forgot it's name, but whatever.

I hate that this is so graveyard dependent. Easily fucked with for the loss.

Oh, I guess one more thing. Teeg. Teeg with Thorn is sexy. This stops storm from playing their draw-4s. If you can get a Thorn down turn 1 and a Teeg down turn 2, they are pretty screwed. This stops them from playing both wipe away OR K. Grip, and also Meditate, Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract, Diminishing Returns, Tendrils, EtW, Belcher It messes with you as well, but all you have to do is drop a critter (Goyf much?) and start beating as fast as possible for the win.

It also stops random stuff like FoW, Damnation/Wrath, EE, Deed, Stroke of Genius, Seismic Assault, and more.

Wow, I should quit. Also, a disclaimer: It's late, and I'm burnt the fuck out. If my math is off, I apologize, or if someone else who knows quite a bit about storm sees an error in my logic, please correct me.

Pce,

--DC

Nihil Credo

09-04-2008, 07:50 AM

@DC: Why are you saying that going off for (Storm deck here) is tough with Thorn in play? That's true, but also irrelevant - all Storm decks that do not go off on turn 1 have the ability to get rid of an artifact before going off.

You need to supplement it with either a very fast Waste-lock (which this deck doesn't currently run, it seems) or a fast clock. Otherwise you'll just get Tendriled out on turn 6 instead of turn 3.

Dark_Cynic87

09-04-2008, 09:42 AM

I think you forgot about the Chalice @ 1, Nihil. Chalice @ 1 plus a Thorn. Plus, let's not forget that there would be 4 in the list, and I have to say every version of Slide I've played drew a CRAP-TON of cards.

I mentioned the Wastelock already, and I said Teeg would work great with Thorn as it makes Combo's bounce irrelevent making it an unplayable 4cc spell. BTW, why does it seem like you don't play Wastes? I never play without them in a Slide List. Wastelocks can be game against many lists. Leaving out synergistic win-conditions for the loss, man. Waste a Trop and Extirpate it. That's awesome.

Multiple disruptive artifacts is bad for any combo list that doesn't go off turn one. In fact, if they aren't on the play, either Chalice or Thorn makes them unhappy. A turn 1 Thorn, turn 2 Chalice is bad news.

Lifegain to get out of reach of Tendrils isn't a bad plan either, Nihil. Thorn plus 8 life (sliding out a Riftwatcher twice) is probably going to be enough to win the game.

Nihil, in theory FT can handle basically any situation. However, does it always work like that in actual play? No. I'm simply stating that it's very possible to screw over FT and other storm-based combo lists with this game-plan.

Pce,

--DC

Nihil Credo

09-04-2008, 10:07 AM

@Wasteland: Your list isn't in this thread, so I took morgan's for reference.

Anyway, you didn't address my point: do you have a decent clock to back up Chalice/Thorn/lifegain/whatever? If you don't kill them in a reasonable time, Storm will eventually get around to doing the sequence EOT bounce/Grip, untap, win (or, in the case of TES, Burning Wish -> removal, win).

Dark_Cynic87

09-04-2008, 11:04 AM

A set of Tarmogoyf? Seems a reasonable clock...my list runs a quite a few creatures, as do most Slide lists. I'm in the middle of testing beaters, but right now I'm running a set of goyfs, a Mystic Enforcer and an Eternal Dragon. Enforcer is a low enough cc to be useful if I can hit threshold quickly, but I mainly rely on Goyf, just like 99% of every other list in the format that runs green and likes a creature or 4.

I'm trying to fit in Rancors as sliding out your creature means nothing to Rancor. Plus it allows you to play it on any creature and feel free to swap it up whenever as it Witnesses itself back to your hand. Also, it's GREAT in Goyf-wars; you will kill theirs always. It even hits for 1 over a goyf when on the attack. The Rancor is also a VERY big plus for a speedier kill.

I'll pin up a list in a while.

BTW, TES's removal is actually a bit better against this as it has Shattering Spree AND Hull Breach at its disposal. I almost wish FT had that. I'm slowly piecing together a hybrid of TES and FT, but it's difficult to do as I'm having trouble taking the best parts of each and making it synergistic at the same time.

Pce,

--DC

Dark_Cynic87

09-07-2008, 02:26 PM

Here's my list

CREATURES--17
4x Eternal Witness
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Shriekmaw
3x Aven Riftwatcher
1x Treefolk that acts like LftL (forgot name, to lazy to look)
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Mystic Enforcer

SPELLS--20
4x Astral Slide
3x Life from the Loam
3x Gilded Light
2x Extirpate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mox Diamond

LAND--23
3x Tranquil Thicket
3x Secluded Steppe
4x Windswept Heath
4x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Plains
3x Wasteland
2x Volrath’s Stronghold

EDIT:::

With Shards being spoiled, I may think about playing this as a much more control-ish list. I really like mixing Stoic Angel with Timbermare. That would mean going to blue, though.

Stoic Angel--1UGW
Creature-Angel

Flying, Vigilance
Players can't untap more than one creature during their untap step.

3/4

There may be some good things in blue, I've never explored the idea. I guess there's that whole Trinket Mage package, but that seems extremely underwhelming. However, bounce seems like it's beginning to be an option/necessity. There's a new Graveyard hate card in Shards that's an artifact that costs 1, and it taps to remove target card in a graveyard from the game OR 1, tap, sac/rfg (can't remember which) to remove target graveyard from the game.

I HATE losing Shriekmaw in this, though. IDK what I'll do.

Just some ideas...

Pce,

--DC

morgan_coke

09-07-2008, 02:59 PM

The treefolk is "Tilling Treefolk". Though I'm not 100% sure it's even better than Cartographer given its basically -1 power, +1 toughness, +1 land returned.

I'm not really doing anything here until the Shards of Alara cyclers get spoiled simply because they could radically shake up the deck, change its colors, or have no impact at all.

Dark_Cynic87

09-07-2008, 10:23 PM

Shards could in theory change the splash color, but green and white will not change. LftL is green, which in my opinion is what lets this deck be what it is, which makes green securely anchored to the list. Same argument for Astral Slide.

That list is out of memory as I can't find my latest list right now (moving). Tilling Treefolk is for when you get Life from the Loam extirpated. It's not good, but it keeps your deck from getting completely shafted by a single Extirpate.

The extra land returned is what makes Tilling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over cartographer. It means you don't need 2x Slides out for it to be of any use.

Want to put in a more toolbox-ish feel with E.'s Call or Mirage Tutor, but at the moment it's less important than what I'm going for.

Pce,

--DC

Dark_Cynic87

09-18-2008, 04:03 AM

Let me preface this by saying that while I know I'm double-posting, this thread was a few pages back, and I have something relevant to say and I need it to be up on page one so everyone sees it.

So far with the spoiling of Shards, here are the cards that in my mind will have ANY bearing on this deck of any sort. Nothing huge so far other than MAYBE Knight of the White Orchid, Corpse Connoiseur, or MAYBE Cunning Lethemancer. Sorry, don't know how to link to the actual cards, but I saw these at mtgsal [click] (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=127211#2892) .

Ethersworn Canonist
Knight of the White Orchid
Sigiled Paladin
Corpse Connoisseur
Cunning Lethemancer
Hell’s Thunder
Druid of Anima
Manaplasm
Lush Growth
Spearbreaker Behemoth
Wild Nacatl
Elvish Visionary
Oasali Ambusher
Relic of Progenitus
Sigil of Distinction

Nothing huge yet, but I'm not sure we need anything, I think it just needs to be taken seriously. I've always loved Chant in my Slide lists. It's a good little combo, and VERY good at what it does. For instance, Wrath/Damn are good, but Timewalking goblins, Aggro-Loam (non Chalice versions of course), Goyf Sligh and several other non-blue agro-ish decks is good. I hear maindeck combo hate is awesome, and it can be paired with Duress, which is good as well in here.

Let me hear your thoughts! (yeah, you MorganCoke)

Pce,

--DC

morgan_coke

09-18-2008, 04:11 AM

So far I really like Ethersworn Canonist. Definitely becomes a four-of in the board. It's really odd actually, the other day before it was spoiled I was looking for a creature with a Rule of Law type effect.

Everything else so far looks like crap or danger of cool things. The big cyclers are just a massive disappointment. Still eight cyclers we haven't seen yet, so here's hoping.

EDIT: Unearth would be an insane mechanic in this deck except for the non-flicker clause which pretty much makes it useless.

Dark_Cynic87

09-18-2008, 04:40 AM

Makes the possible wish targets after unearthing them, but nothing popped out as good enough for me to include Living Wish for; I've never really liked wish here, but I may try it out again.

IDK, I'm almost dead-set on a black splash. I'm doing well with a creature-base including 2x Tombstalker and a singleton Eternal Dragon for my big evasive beaters. It's especially good becaus LftL lets me return Volrath's Stronghold, which in turn gets me Eternal Witness, and so now I never have to worry about milling away anything that I need. It's definitely been the MVP for me in a very subtle way. Needle on Stronghold KILLS me if I haven't gotten a Witness out or have one in my hand. Also thinking about Groundbreaker, maybe even trying out Phantom Nishoba. It's a good card, but the cost is crappy. Exalted Angel might be tried out again as sliding it out gets out it out of Morph for W/G + drawing a card and waiting a bit.

If one of the cards printed demanded blue and was good enough to include, I'd possibly test out Stoic Angel with Frozen Aether (I think that's it's name). Of course I'd need something to stall until mid-game, so probably Thorn of Amethyst or a stompy skeleton. That's off-topic, though, so IDK. But it would be cool to be able to slide out the one creature they untapped every turn. Also cool would be Seedborn Muse...Ghaf, ignore this part of the post. I'm going ADHD (no offense to any of those stricken with it).

Pce,

--DC

morgan_coke

09-23-2008, 12:15 AM

This was just spoiled along with a rules clarification, both of which portend very, very good things for slide.

Viscera Dragger
Ogre Zombie Warrior
3B
Cycling 2
Unearth 1B
3/3

The rules clarification is that when an unearth'd creature leaves play under a "remove from game then return" effect it doesn't get permanently rfg'd and comes back into play with no memory of being unearthed.

That said, I don't know that this guy is good enough to see play, but Unearth critters definitely deserve a close look in this deck.

Dark_Cynic87

09-23-2008, 02:08 AM

agreed. this one isn't playable, but they do require looking through.

a 3/3 basically-vanilla has no merit in this deck.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT: Actually, he might be good enough. He kills a mongoose and comes back. That might be good enough, since it kills a highly popular creature with shroud.

Dark_Cynic87

09-23-2008, 03:13 PM

On a completely different note, I've been working on a build. It's kind of wierd...4-c...Here it is:

LandSlide v. 1.1

Creatures—8
3x Tilling Treefolk
1x Shriekmaw
1x Eternal Witness
1x Aven Riftwatcher
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Pestermite

Spells—27
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Life from the Loam
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Decree of Justice
2x Cunning Wish
3x Standstill
3x Astral Slide
3x Intuition
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Miscalculation
4x Force of Will

Land—25
1x Plains
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Savannah
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Wasteland
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
3x Mishra’s Factory
1x Tranquil Thicket
2x Secluded Steppe
3x Lonely Sandbar
2x Windswept Heath
4x Flooded Strand

SB-15 (NOT done)
3x Krosan Grip
1x Rushing River
1x Shock (Against Magus of the Moon)
1x Rebuild
3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
3x Meddling Mage/Teeg?

I have no idea for the sideboard right now as I haven't got to play against a lot of stuff...

The idea is to use Tilling Treefolk instead of LftL to get around Standstill. Standstill gives you CA while helping your early game. This version runs enough blue to support FoW, giving you a better combo matchup as well as some much-needed protection against crap like Deed. Miscalculation fits right in as a pretty solid counter as well as a cycler. This leads me to my next point: Is there enough cyclers in here?

6x Cycling Lands
4x Miscalculate
1x DoJ
1x Rebuild--SB

12 cyclers, 6x are recurring. I will point out that I run Intuition, and that helps grab lands and whatnot. I'd like feedback, Morgan. You might play it a bit first just to make sure you get the interactions. It takes a few games to make it feel comfortable.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT: In other news, has anyone tried Painter's Stone in here? You could go Trinket Box with it...I've been trying a lot of WGu lists lately. I've thought and thought about this one but never tried to assemble a working list. Does it seem worth it?

georgjorge

09-24-2008, 07:00 PM

That list looks a bit too slow to me...I mean, Slide already has to use Tomb and/or Diamond to have a shot at keeping up with the tempo, and an Intuition package doesn't exactly make it faster. You DO have Forces though...but I can definitely see speed being an issue, with both Intuition and Slide doing nothing the turn they are played (if it's before turn four), and then using up lots of mana.

morgan_coke

09-25-2008, 04:28 PM

Well, we've got the full shards spoiler. All I have to say is wow that was disappointing. The cyclers, by and large are atrocious. The white Lull is ok, but since the deck already has access to Lull, it doesn't really help anything. The cycling Unearth Zombie is about the only other card that looks decent, but it's difficult to say without testing if that'll end up being worth anything.

The main pickups as far as I can tell are Tidehollow Sculler and Ethersworn Canonist. (The new mesmeric fiend and the critter rule of law.) You can in GBW now run a full anti-combo brigade of:

4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Gaddock Teeg

I don't really care how much anti-disruption a combo deck is packing, that's a tough group to win through and provides a decent clock with 2 or 3 of them out as well. The main problem with this approach is that A) sometimes t2 is too slow and B) Teeg and Chalice hate each other.

Tentatively, I'd say Canonist makes into into the board as a 4x-of. Beyond that, I'm not too sure. Will have more on this plus an updated list later.

Jaynel

09-25-2008, 05:27 PM

If Mesmeric Fiend isn't already run, I don't see why Tidehollow Sculler would be.

Willoe

09-25-2008, 05:47 PM

It has a better body (don't misunderstand me, please)

I guess that's why, but the effect is well, small.

morgan_coke

09-25-2008, 06:50 PM

First of all, Sculler is at least 10x as good as fiend. Same CMC, twice the body is a huge, huge improvement.

Otherwise, Sculler as part of that particular man plan is a strong choice. It's basically a two mana thoughtseize that leaves a 2/2 body behind. Two 2/2's is a five turn clock. Three 2/2's is essentially a three turn clock given fetchland damage.

But no, by itself and not as part of a dude brigade plan, sculler is definitely not good enough. Although it is still light years better than Fiend.

Of course, for anti-combo purposes, Canonist beats both of them with Darth Maul's Lightsaber.

Dark_Cynic87

09-26-2008, 01:48 PM

any interest in the LandSlide build? I'm not highly hopeful, but I figured I would give it a shot. I like Forces in it...Don't like it sucking...

Pce,

--DC

morgan_coke

10-02-2008, 03:24 PM

Updated first post with post-Alara build. Not really happy with it as it stands. Definitely need to find some way of shoe-horning some gy hate into the maindeck. Not remotely excited about loaming shaman or yixlid jailer as those options.

The deck still loses to sui black lists if they have a significant clock (eva green) and splits with them if they don't (deadguy). Ichorid is also ugly.

Canonist is just amazing in this deck. Especially given all the things it can do without actually casting a spell, plus the artifacts it already runs. Just a great, great card for the build. Really happy that got printed.

The cyclers in Alara are a universal disappointment. Just complete and total crap over and over again. The Unearth mechanic looked high potential until it was revealed that all the cards with it suck. Viscera Dragger is the only remotely interesting card to come out of this group, but it needs lots of testing before I can affirmatively say whether or not it sucks or is good.

DC,

I really dislike the LandSlide build. In artistic terms, that deck is way, way too busy. You've got far too much going on there for any kind of cohesive whole to emerge. Sorry.

morgan_coke

10-27-2008, 01:30 PM

One new, significant development has emerged from my testing of this deck for extended. And that is this: Planeswalkers freaking rock the house in slide.

Elspeth, Knight Errant is just unreal in Slide. Turns Witnesses into actual threats. Makes all the permanents in a permanent-based control deck indestructible. Which basically makes it impossible for your opponent to win. Also completely trumps Humility. 7/7 flying monastery? Yes please. (or just 4/4 flying soldier token made by her.) Also turn Witnesses into legitimate threats.

I'm liking Ajani Vengeant a lot in the extended build, but not sure he's good enough to justify trying to break into a fourth color. Garruk is also strong here. Liliana Vess.. locks down games you've already won. Not really that worth it.

Tomb really pushes out the walkers quickly, which is important, because the earlier your 'walker hits the table, the more impact it has on the game. I'm mostly focused on Extended right now, but figured I'd share this discovery with anyone else who's working on Slide in Legacy.

One final note on Elspeth... Indestructible Chalice = game.

Alfred

10-28-2008, 11:26 AM

Can't you slide Sculler with it's CITP trigger on the stack, and they'll lose the card for good? That seems like a good interaction.

TheLion

10-28-2008, 12:18 PM

yes, that works.

Dark_Cynic87

10-29-2008, 05:24 PM

There's a common from Torment (I think it's Torment) that does much better, as it has a cc of 2...

Elspeth would be good. I need some...damn. How much are they? (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p227499.html)

No way. I just bought goyfs...:(

Plus, I like slide, but I'd rather win...I'll help with theory, but I refuse to play a tier2 or lower list that runs 2/3/4x $30 dollar cards...What do you think this is? Standard?!?!

Pce,

--DC

morgan_coke

10-31-2008, 03:37 AM

DC,

Mesmeric Fiend (the common from Torment) is significantly worse than Tidehollow Sculler because it's a 1/1 instead of a 2/2. That is a large and significant difference.

Also, look at the bright side, now that you've got 'Goyfs, you never have to buy them again.

Alfred,

What the Lion said. Rawr.

The biggest, and really only, problem that I've noticed with the walkers is that it makes the deck want WW, GG, and BB for Elspeth, Witness/Garruk, and Decree of Pain. If you've got a mox out, that's easy to do, but without one, its kinda hard. Especially since the deck runs 7 colorless lands. It may be time to cut the monasterys since the 'walkers provide a nice removal/counter resistant threat all on their own.

Mordel

10-31-2008, 04:25 AM

The what I think people are trying to get at with the fiends and are maybe leaving too much for sculler supporters to figure out is that fiends require one colour to use, whereas sculler requires two.

Under extremely inconvient, but reasonably common circumstances that concern being potentially locked out of a particular colour of mana, fiend will be able to come down still. This is not necessarily so with sculler.

Yes, sculler has a fatter ass and being shut off from a colour might not happen too much, BUT it is still more likely to happen than with a fiend. A control deck wants to be able to use its cards when it needs them as consistently as possible and while sculler might warrant the risk, I think that a fiend would be a better choice for it's overall castability.

MasterC

10-31-2008, 04:48 AM

Hey, I really like the idea behind this deck. But: Are 7 creatures with cip effects enough to abuse slide efficiently? Or am I missing something?

MasterC

morgan_coke

11-02-2008, 06:55 PM

MasterC,

Slide is as much a defensive as offensive weapon. Preventing your opponent from being able to attack is generally pretty awesome. Slide works with all creatures, not just ones with CITP effects. An active slide on the board essentially gives all your creatures pseudo vigilance, pseudo shroud, and pseudo wrath immunity. Being able to repeately abuse witness effects et al. is just icy frosting made out of gravy on the cake of awesomesauce.

Mordel,

That is a valid point, but I think that being 2/2 is going to do more for you more often than being 1B. I'd also like to state that I don't particularly care for sculler in Slide decks if you're also using Ancient Tomb.

This is where I have the Legacy list right now, I'm not updating the first page because I'm way behind on testing for that and I'd like the next update to include actual useful knowledge rather than just another new list.

Creatures (7)
4x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch

Planeswalkers (4)
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sorcerys (6)
3x Decree of Pain
3x Life from the Loam

Artifacts (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond

Enchantments (4)
4x Astral Slide

Instants (4)
4x Expunge

Flex/Open Slots (2)

Lands (25)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Windswept Heath
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Dust Bowl
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
4x Tranquil Thicket
1x Secluded Steppe
3x Barren Moor
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland

Sideboard
4x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Tsunami
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
2x Ghostly Prison

Dark_Cynic87

11-04-2008, 09:19 PM

I still say that those 2x Open slots aught to be Tilling Treefolk. You really must never see an extirpate. I do, and it sux.

Pce,

--DC

ssilver

12-07-2008, 11:26 PM

1 month necro... nothing to be proud about : (
Anyway, one of my friend is making a slide deck for our local card shop Legacy tourney, and he runs a WGR build including Slide and Rift as well as Tilling treefolk, cycling lands, WoG's. Luckily for him there is only one guy playing combo at our friday night games out of 16 people. Is combo the deck that rifter/slide has the most trouble with? (he's mainly running rift for a win con).
p.s: Theres no thresh, and the format is mostly control/random aggro with a splash of aggro loam and stax decks.

morgan_coke

12-08-2008, 03:15 AM

yeah, combo is generally slide's worst matchup. depending on your version sui decks can be bad too.

Ethersworn Canonist is the best option for dealing with combo, followed by rule of law. Chalice is also great. Actually, Chalice is fucking awesome and should be maindecked.

I'd recommend some crypts for the loam and stax decks, wog is great vs. random aggro, rift is so/so depending on how many dudes over 2 toughness people are running.

I'm currently 3-2 with Slide in the Salvation Legacy tournament, I'll put up decklist and results/report once I play the last match.

morgan_coke

12-11-2008, 06:26 PM

Sorry for the double post, but this is a totally different topic than the last post, so... sorry.

Played in the latest MTGSalvation Legacy tournament, went 3-2 with one match unable to be scheduled. Report follows.

Decklist used was:
4x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch

2x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Life from the Loam
3x Decree of Pain
4x Expunge
2x Krosan Grip
4x Mox Diamond
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Astral Slide

4x Windswept Heath
4x Tranquil Thicket
1x Secluded Steppe
3x Barren Moor
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Dust Bowl
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
3x Tsunami
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Krosan Grip
3x Rapid Decay

Round 1: Lost 0-2
Played vs. Threshold featuring Show and Tell + Empyrial Archangel.

Game One, I hardcast a game winning Decree of Pain only to see it countered by Counterbalance revealing my opponents' third Archangel of the game. (the first two were pitched to Force of Wills. Yeah, an eight mana spell countered by Counterbalance, go figure.

Game Two, I cycled into a game winning Decree of Pain with one life left only to realize I'd need to tap an Ancient Tomb to cast it.

Vs. Normal Thresh lists the deck performs very well, vs this version, not so much. Not sure if that is due to randomness in the sample size or a definite matchup variation.

Round 2: Lost 1-2
Played vs. Suicide Black w/red splash

Game One, Got down some early slides and kept a pair of Ashenmoor Gougers hanging out in the rfg zone. Let one of them through to get an extra Witness cycle. Couldn't find a Hierarch before I got burned out. If I'd played more defensively, this would have been a win.

Game Two, Got Slides and Elephants and Elspeth going. Bad times for Sui.

Game Three, Suicide did it's thing and ran my @ss over with lots of disruption and big fast dudes.

Round 3: Won 2-1
Played vs. Dreadstill

I don't remember the individual games, but basically Grip + Slide > 'Nought, and Tsunami = significantly less useful than you'd think.

Round 4: Won 2-0
Played vs. Grindstone/Painter Combo

Game One, used a carefully timed Krosan Grip to stop the first Painter/Grindstone activation. Got beat down a fair amount by random dudes until Slide appeared to stabilize the board. Chalice @2 pretty much locked him out.

Game Two, concession by opponent given how unfavorable the matchup was for him.

Round 5: Won 2-0
Played vs. White Stax

Game One, opened with a Chalice @1, which is about the most useless play for either of our decks. Used Elspeth to push a big monster through some Ghostly Prisons for a quick win.

Game Two, Used Dust Bowl and Krosan Grips to disrupt his mana and Elspeth again made the one threat I was able to power through the Prisons into a huge threat.

Round 6: Draw/Loss/Whatever
Was unable to schedule this round with my opponent.

Garruk sucked bigtime. He's cut/gone/whatever. Maindeck Krosan Grips were awesome. I wish Wizards would print a decent cycling Disenchant effect (Break Asunder just doesn't cut it), but until they do I guess Grips will have to suffice. Indrik Stomphowler, Wickerbough Elder, and Harmonic Sliver are always up for consideration in that slot though.

Some more beats/lifegain would have been very nice to have, so I'm putting 2x Exalted Angel in the Garruk slot. Angel + Tomb + Mox can lead to some pretty sweet starts, plus all of the Angel + Slide fun.

I'm not positive that Dust Bowl is better than Wasteland, but trading in excess Tombs, fetches and cycling lands for LD is pretty sweet.

The deck lacks a way to find it's one basic swamp, which I dislike. Tsunami out of the board was worthless. Not having Graveyard hate maindeck was much less of an issue than I thought it would be. I think I'd like to have Genesis in the deck as a backup to Stronghold, but I have no idea what to cut for it. Also considering dropping the fourth fetchland for a ninth cycling land.

morgan_coke

12-26-2008, 12:28 AM

sorry for necro/triple post. massive update to first post. just letting the community know.

Aj-capra

12-27-2008, 01:09 PM

Hi people!!

I tested the last version of morgan_coke for two hours versus my group.
I've see who this deck are very very good MU versus moon effects (4 diamond + basic lands), versus combo (4 chalice main + 4 canonist side) and versus stax (astral + elder is very very nice) and versus stax too!!
Versus ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh/r/w/b i'm thinking who the MU it's good because there're a lot of cards who are strong (chalice/slide/bowl).

I'll play this deck real in january!!!

PS : sry for my english language :-(

morgan_coke

01-25-2009, 06:34 PM

Updated first post and decklist.

The conflux spoiler is complete now. The only cards that look remotely interesting here are Lapse of Certainty and Knight of the Reliquary. Actually, Lapse looks really interesting. It would require a re-tooled decklist, but Slide has always wanted a counterspell that it could start recycling every turn.

Martial Coup is intriguing, but it's worse than Decree of Pain in almost every situation. I'd be interested in Absorb Vis if it was an instant and cost 2 less, but it's not and it doesn't, so..

Aj-Capra,

Glad the deck is working well for you. I'd strongly, strongly recommend adding more colored mana to the old version though. For me six out of 24 lands being colorless was a real issue. The additional Bayou and elimination of 3 of the decks 4 WW casting costs seems to have largely dealt with the issue though.

Aj-capra

01-26-2009, 12:46 PM

Why you play kokusho? I just put the list on mws for testing it.

@edit1 : just won 2-0 versus enchantress

GAME1:

- I start and play chalice 1
- 3° turn I play loxodon
- 4° turn I play Elspeth

gg for me!!

GAME2:

- He stars with dual
- I play canonist :P (yes diamond always in my hand ghghg)
- He plays Argothian Enchantress and pass
- I play Wicherbought and pass
- He plays Sterling Grove and pass
- I play Elspeth and break sterling (big mistakes because He finds oblivion for canonist)
- HE plays oblivion vs canonist and he plays 2 cards (I don't rembember)
- I attack with Wicherbought (6/6 fly)
- He play other cards and gg easy for me.

Bahamuth

01-26-2009, 01:07 PM

I like this deck. It needs improvement though.

I like the Tomb, Mox and Chalice idea. Although, I'm not entirely sure if this instantly means you're cut off of StP. I'd seriously give it a shot.

Also, your removal is terrible. The cards all cost 3+ mana, which is terrible. I'm not convinced this deck needs that much more cycle cards, while you're already playing Loam with alot of cycle land. I'd replace the removal with 4 StP and 4 Goyf. You might also consider Shriekmaw, by the way. You can slide him out in response to the Evoke trigger, thus killing 2 creatures for 3 mana and having a 3/2 Fear into play which turns your land into terror cantrips.

Aj-capra

01-26-2009, 01:34 PM

morgan_coke

01-26-2009, 01:34 PM

Kokusho is in there as a test slot. What the deck really wants is a big flyer that gains you life. Exalted Angel didn't work because it's early double white requirement was screwing up the mana and because it generally died before it did anything for you. Goblins just hits it with Warren Weirding, and burn decks just drop two spells on it while Zoo types zap it with Tribal Flames.

I figure with Kokusho, he's at least as big and hard to kill as Tombstalker, plus he gives you life when he dies. I rather have a big guy who gave you life when it came into play, basically a flying hierarch, but there isn't one available right now. Aven Riftwatcher just sucks without a Slide in play. Koku is a long way from ideal, but he'd the best I can find right now. I'd love to hear some ideas in this vein if you have any.

EDIT: Bahamuth,

You can have Chalice or 1cc spells. You can't have both. Expunge and Radiant's Justice between them hit every single widely played non-shroud creature in the format except for Bob and Hippie. They also cycle so they're not dead when they don't work. Decree is awesome because it basically reads: Uncounterably Wrath goblins/merfolk/faeries/random aggro during their attack step and draw a card.

As far as the removal costing three... it's a tomb/mox/chalice deck. That's kind of how it works. Your removal costs three so you can set chalices at 0, 1, and 2 depending on what your opponent has. 2 cuts you off from loam, but that's it, which makes it worth it vs. some decks. If you want to talk about 'Goyf, read the first four pages. Generally speaking, he makes the deck worse. He'd be good in a version that was aggro control and didn't run tomb and chalice. That type of list is at the very bottom of the first post.

TheLion

01-26-2009, 03:13 PM

I am currently working on an Extended list and as I saw that list here (first post), I am wondering about some card choices and about the decision concerning the black splash.
You mention, that red fails because it has nothing against combo, but as I look at your list, all your black spells are creature removal spells, except 3 against the graveyard in your SB. So your black splash does nothing against combo, which I thought it was supposed to do.
Therefore I wonder, what has black really to offer over Lightning Rift and other good red removal (e.g. Lightning Helix, Starstorm or Duergar Hedge-Mage). Or is it the slightly dissynergy with Chalice@2 ?

In Extended one card currently lives up: Engineered Explosives. Why don't you play it? It's solid in Legacy, too, obviously.

BlindMage

01-26-2009, 04:16 PM

I've posted this list that I've been working on once or twice, but no one paid any attention to it, so I stopped bothering. Since you're asking specifically about red, though, I think I'll post it again.

Electric Slide

Lands: 23
4 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Secluded Steppe
2 Forgotten Cave
6 Plains
3 Mountain

Creatures: 15
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Duergar Hedge Mage
2 Eternal Dragon

Other Spells: 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gilded Light
2 Umezawa's JItte
2 Rune of Protection: Green (metagame slot)
3 Astral Slide
3 Starstorm

Sideboard
4 Orim's Chant
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Astral Slide
3 Exalted Angel
2 Open Spots (currently Decree of Justice)

I'm currently testing Flame Jet in the Gilded Light spot, after noticing that Landstill was beating me while at 3-5 life. This probably hurts the storm combo match, unless they are aggressive with Ad Nauseum. I may have to switch in a Mountain if I make this change.

TheLion

01-26-2009, 05:22 PM

but no one paid any attention to it

Well, maybe it's because your list is quite different from others.
I have some critique:

I think you should really run Life from the Loam in any Slide deck.

You should also run more creatures with come into play effects.

Jitte with only 13 actual creatures might be a wrong choice, too.

Starstorm + Lavamancer = bad.

No Lightning Rift, even in a red heavy cycle deck.

23 lands are too few, imo.

some choices like 4 Jötun Grunt, Rune and Lightning Bolt seem a little odd.

Aj-capra

01-27-2009, 07:06 AM

In astral deck lftl is >>>> all!!!

Green splash is compulsory!!!

Loxodon is better than Kitchen Finks (with astral in to play its very very strongh).

Duergar Hedge-Mage is good if you play w/r slide only (and only in sd), otherwise 2 mana red can be a problem.

If you play r/w list I'd play Lightning Rift too. Its very good vs aggro decks.

Abeyance is better than orim (I think). Jotun is a good card, but you must play it in sb and versus: ichorid (a bad mu), ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and loam (aggro loam and/or lftl control).

Rune of prot. is very very good, when I played (2 years ago) r/w rift (my first legacy deck) rune of protection red was very very strongh. Now I'm playing green rune (tarmo,mongoose and mystic suck).

These are my little ideas!!!

morgan_coke

01-27-2009, 01:50 PM

Blindmage,

If you want to, do a writeup on your build and post it here or send it to me via PM and I'll edit it into the first post. I don't think Slide is so popular in Legacy that we can't fit two builds into one thread here.

TheLion,

Yeah, black has evolved into basically just a creature kill color. I've actually been thinking about red myself. Starstorm is basically a wash with DoP, they're similar with different strengths and weaknesses. Firemane Angel would be a great addition, fulfilling the "big flyer/lifegainer/recurring threat" slot. Expunge is the big loss. I guess you could up the number of Radiant's and run some Lightning Helixes or something, but that's all I can really think of to replace it.

Lightning Rift is crap in Legacy right now. Merfolk, Elves, and Goblins are the only decks that run guys small enough to be killed by it. 'Goyf and 'Stalker have just made Legacy creatures quite a bit bigger than they were before. Rift is also too slow as a kill condition in the current meta. It's a sideboard card now.

Aj-Capra,

I'm curious as to why Faeries gave you trouble. Did you just not draw Decrees and Wickerboughs or Expunges and Slides? Cycled DoP is just as good during the Fae attack step as it is during the Goblin one. In some way's it's better since it's uncounterable (barring Stifle, of course).

Aj-capra

01-27-2009, 02:06 PM

Aj-Capra,

I'm curious as to why Faeries gave you trouble. Did you just not draw Decrees and Wickerboughs or Expunges and Slides? Cycled DoP is just as good during the Fae attack step as it is during the Goblin one. In some way's it's better since it's uncounterable (barring Stifle, of course).

Yeah. I drawed always black decree, but him dust bowl (game 1 and game 2) killed my manabase.

My opponent were very very expert because in game 1 he drawed 3 stp and 3 stendstill, for this reason he drawed tons of cards (otherwise he killed me with 2 factories).

Black decree kills goblin and faeries easy, but a lot of counters are a bad problem. I tested defense grid in my sd and I won versus muc thank to it.

@sry my little english ;(

BlindMage

01-27-2009, 04:07 PM

Sure, I'll do a quick write-up of my list.

It's fundamentally different from other lists in this thread, and traditional (type II) Astral Slide of old, because it's designed to be an aggro-control deck, as opposed to a control deck. There are a couple reasons for this, but the most salient is that as a control deck, Slide really can't compete with the other Legacy control decks, particularly Landstill and Quinn.

With that in mind, I designed me deck to do a couple of things. First, I wanted to have creatures that could compete with Threshold's creatures. Jotun Grunt and Kitchen Finks were chosen to directly fight Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose, respectively. Second, I wanted to not be dependent on having Astral Slide. That's why you don't see an abundance of comes-into-play creatures, or LftL. If you look, though, nearly all my creatures have some synergy with slide. On top of which, slide is a excellent board manipulation tool in itself. I also wanted to have answers to as many different strategies as possible.

A few words on individual card choices:

Grim Lavamancer: This card seems to generate the most raised eyebrows. He serves a similar function to Lightning Rift in older lists, but more aggressive, and without needing cyclers to function. He has been in an out of the deck, but I haven't found anything better at a similar mana cost. I love him because he's good early, and amazing as a topdeck later on.

Rune of Protection: This is a metagame spot. RoP: Green is a surprise bomb against thresh, aggro-loam, and a whole slew of other tier 1-2 decks. If it's not relevant to a given meta, it can easily be replaced by something else, preferably something that cycles.

Kitchen Finks vs. Loxodon Hierarch/Ravenous Baloth: It's mostly about the mana cost. The difference between turn 3 and turn 4 is very significant. The other factor is that while all of these will survive an altercation with a mongoose or pumped factory, only Finks is likely to temp opponents into those attacks/blocks, which gain card advantage (and sometimes tempo) for me. Plus, it's surprising how frequently people forget that it has persist.

Starstorm (vs. Decree of Pain): Starstorm is better than alternatives because of the combination of being instant, having cycling, and being able to kill mongooses. This last is why it's better than DoP. It can kill a bunch of soldier or goblin tokens for 3, or it can wipe a pair of 'gooses for 5. Or you can cycle it. It really is one of the best cards in the deck.

Land Count: 23 lands is really high for an aggro-control deck. Of course, 5 of them are cycling lands that I only play if I have to. However, this high count makes the deck less vulnerable to certain kinds of non-basic hate, particularly Blood Moon, but also Wasteland and to some extent Back to Basics.

Quick note on the Graveyard: Some of you might be looking at 3 Grim Lavamancer and 4 Jotun Grunt and thinking you can't possibly support enough graveyard for all that. While it's true that problems with this sometimes happen, the reality is that by playing these threats sequentially, they all feed on each other. In addition, with slide active, maintaining several Grunts in play is pretty easy. It also frees up SB space normally devoted to Crypt/Relic.

Final Note: in spite of what has turned into a more extensive, official-looking writeup than I planned to do, this deck is still very much a work in progress, and certainly not yet optimized. I think this is pretty clear, but in case it's not, let me say that this is a deck designed to deal with the explosion of aggro-control decks in modern Legacy. I hope this hopes shed some light on you're questions, etc, etc.

morgan_coke

01-28-2009, 02:51 AM

massive update and rewrite on the first post. if you don't like it, think its wrong, or find it hard to read, let me know with suggestions on what to change to make it more accessible/easier to read.

BlindMage

01-28-2009, 03:19 AM

massive update and rewrite on the first post. if you don't like it, think its wrong, or find it hard to read, let me know with suggestions on what to change to make it more accessible/easier to read.

I'm just tickled to see my deck in the update. Thanks!

EDIT: I should probably mention that the SB Chant/Scepter is mostly part of the SB plan against Storm and to a lesser extent Dredge combo decks, though I keep an eye out for other opponents that might be vulnerable to it. It's a new addition that I haven't had much opportunity to test, but it's hard for me to see how it would be bad, since especially Storm combo these days needs to cast spells on its turn to win. I know there are Chain of Vapors floating around, particularly in Dredge, but it still seems worthwhile.

TheLion

01-28-2009, 04:38 AM

I appreciate your work for developing this archetype, but do you really want to edit every deck list suggested by members into the first post?

Once again a question about Lightning Rift. Your only argument seems to be, that it doesn't deal with Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnought and Mongoose. I understand that argument, but then I ask why you play Decree of Pain and why you justify Starstorm in the red build, which will rarely be cast for 7 mana I guess...
Another note: you could run Burn (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix) in addition to the Rift so that it deals with x/5 creatures. And you have Slide to deal with other fatties. BlindMage's list even runs Jitte.
Also: the Extended lists play (and played in last season) Wrath of God over Starstorm. Wouldn't this be an option for Legacy, too?

Another question: Have you considered to drop Chalice (and then to make your mana base more stable) in favor for Swords and other goodies? I noticed, that you never want to play Chalice for X = 2, since it would shut down your most important card (Loam). So every Chalice after the first is usually dead.

morgan_coke

01-28-2009, 01:15 PM

TheLion,

The main things you'd get from dropping chalice would be a re-worked manabase that was slower and access to 1cc spells. Namely Swords, Unearth, and Raven's Crime + possibly Chant. All of that put together is worse than what you get from Chalice, not even counting the extra speed this manabase gives you.

On Rift, I think I did a poor job of explaining. In Legacy now, creatures either come in swarms of x/2 or smaller or in single packages of x/5 or bigger. Rift is best against ones and twos of x/2s or x/4s. Starstorm and Decree of Pain both easily kill the x/2 swarms all at once. Rift only does it over a couple of turns.

I'm not adding every random list to the first post/primer. I do however think Blindmage's build has a lot of potential to evolve into some kind of Quinn the Eskimo/Rifter/Slide aggro control hybrid that would be very strong.

Blindmage,

I've been testing your list and I've come to some conclusions about it.
1. It lacks card advantage. Outside of Slide, Dragon, and Starstorm, the deck runs absolutely zero CA cards. It has a fair amount of selection, but no actual advantage. And the three cards I mentioned are all somewhat conditional CA.

2. It lacks disruption. In Legacy you need to be fast, either from low cc, acceleration, or by slowing your opponent down. Your list has low cc, but does none of the others. The best Legacy decks do at least two of those.

3. It doesn't have enough cyclers. R/W needs a high cycling count because it doesn't have CA or Loam to replenish it's hand.

4. There are no turn the game around cards. If you get into a losing board position or a game state where your opponent is gaining a cumulative advantage, you have no topdeckable recovery.

5. The deck has way too high of a mana density. The curve is essentially a flat 1 and 1/2 mana, yet there are nine basics and four duals in the deck and no lands with activated abilities and only five cycling lands.

To address these problems I've reworked your list rather heavily. The creature suite was heavily cut down. Isochron Scepters and Lightning Rifts were added to the maindeck to increase the decks potential CA engines. (yes, Rift isn't that good, but there really aren't tons of options for CA in RW). Orim's Chants, Abeyances, and Wastelands were added to the main to provide disruption. (Maybe the Wastelands should be Rishadan Ports? Not sure on that) The number and types of creatures was reduced to a more "essential" core.

The reworked list isn't optimal by any means, but I think it is more indicative of where the deck should be trying to go.

morgan_coke

02-13-2009, 04:07 AM

I've been testing this online a lot because there's a very small chance I might end up going to GP: Chicago and recently I've run into the Progenitus decks. Slide is something like a 95% loss vs. a t3-4 Progenitus. I've come up with a couple of solutions and am interested in hearing others' thoughts on them.

Solution 1: Cut Decree of Pain for Wrath of God in the maindeck.
Pros: Cheaper sweeper, solid solution for Prog, good against most decks that play creatures.
Cons: Significantly worse vs. goblins, other decks with vial/haste, and decks with counterspells like merfolk and faeries.

Solution 2: Rework the sideboard to include Lapse of Certainty.
Current Sideboard
4x Ethersworn Canonist - good vs. combo and burn.
4x Extirpate - comes in for chalice vs. board control/deed decks, also has minor utility vs. graveyards
4x Ghostly Prison - good vs. swarm aggro, excellent solution to Ichorid/Goblins/Merfolk/Faeries
3x Krosan Grip - good vs. artifacts and enchantments

Extirpate is probably the most cuttable card, but it does make the Ichorid match slightly worse and leaves you very vulnerable to random things like Gamekeeper/reanimation and eliminates your ability to deal with recurring threats like E. Dragon, V. Stronghold, LftL, and Genesis. Vs. Board control decks Extirpate/Lapse is basically a wash. Improves Burn and possibly combo matches. Recurring on color memory lapse just seems like it'd be a fun option to have.

Just adding 3x Lapse and making prison/canonist/extirpate 3-ofs is also an option. (and much easier to do with a cycling deck than many other types of decks)

Orim's Chant is another possibility to bring in here, but it suffers from many of the same weaknesses as Lapse, plus it requires double white and witness+slide to be fully effective.

Solution 3: Rework the deck to include some mix of Constant Mists/Angelsong
Pros: Locking people out of the attack phase is cool.
Cons: Multi card combos aren't that hawt. Gets beaten by discard, non-combat damage, and countermagic. Plus, fog effects often suck.

TheLion

02-13-2009, 04:41 AM

I don't think you should waste your thoughts on how to deal with Progenitus. Isn't it ridiculous? Nobody designs their sideboards to beat randomness.
I guess Slide does nothing on a turn 2 reanimated Simic Sky Swallower neither, but did you ever care about it? The same would probably be true for any other random non-storm combo deck.

Malchar

04-07-2009, 11:16 PM

Hi. I've been reading through a few of the pages here, and I'm kind of interested in this deck. I like the idea of chalice/3sphere because it makes it into more of a stax shell. I was recently on the receiving end of some testing of a scrub version of this deck. I played goblins. I did well, but barely lost when the games went long. One of the MVP's was ghostly prison, which is why I say it looks a lot like a stax shell.

One of the cards that I really wanted to use was Priest of Gix. It feels like there's a combo there with slide, but I can't think of any other card that would take advantage of it. Other cards that might be useful to anyone trying to design a decklist are Phyrexian Rager, Wei Assassins, Pernicious Deed, Imperial Recruiter, and Reveillark.

Pernicious Deed is one of my favorite cards. It doesn't mesh very well with the stax shell (chalice, mox, ghostly prison, etc.), but I dare say it's the most powerful card in black-green. If one were to make a decklist excluding the stax shell, deed could be quite powerful as a utility slot (probably about 2 copies of the card for starters), because it relies on having a witness out if you want to save your slide. Slide the witness, use the deed, witness comes back later returning your slide (or deed, depending).

Aside from that, I like the stax shell a lot right now. My original idea was cataclysm, which I saw echoed in some of the earlier pages. Other than chalice/3sphere, a possible artifact target could be Scroll Rack. It's one of my old favorites because it really wants to work with Life from the Loam nowadays like it used to work with Land Tax. Recurring fetchlands shuffle the deck to give you a new top each time.

As a final note, Reveillark seems golden as a 1-or-2-of to gather lost witnesses or other weenies that one might be using. Too bad it doesn't work with shreikmaw, kitchen, or any of the other good stuff. To get even more type-two crazy, I would just like to say that riftsweeper could be used to rescue creatures that get hit with StP, but even then it really isn't worth putting into the deck. Then again, there's always Living Wish. Or chalice@1, which is way better anyway.

eq.firemind

04-08-2009, 05:13 AM

Hi people!
What do you think about running, say, 2x Mangara of Corondor + 1x Karakas maindeck? Mangara+Slide can be very destructive. And since we're running Knight of Reliqary, we can find our singleton Karakas to make Mangara good without Slide.
Some more untested ideas:
Avalanche Riders in list with red.
The freaking awful silly card Loyal Sentry (KAMIKADZE!!! resolves before damage step, so fuck up Jitte counters or trample 15/15 Terravore! Also very fun, confusing opponents and can stall the game against low-threat(65-80% of metagame) decks).
Maybe Epochrasite deserves play.
Maybe replace 1 Savannah with Horizon Canopy to make some more CA with Loam if we have no Slide online?
Ichor Slick somewhere in removal slots to kill Bob and Hippie if you see them often in your metagame?
Undead Gladiator to have more recurring cycling?
Offalsnout for GY hate (cool with Slide, cool with Stronghold, singlehandly makes Ichorid player's face very sad by removing Bridges+something else for just :b: on instant speed)?
If we suck to black, maybe some Composts in SB (I think turn 1/2 Compost can hurt BSui)?

gamegeek2

04-10-2009, 06:09 PM

I really feel that this deck would love Intuition.

morgan_coke

04-22-2009, 12:05 PM

Well, the full ARB spoiler is up, and as far as I can see, there are two possible additions to Slide in it: Maestrom Pulse and Qasali Pridemage. Pretty disappointing to think that in a set where Wizards brought back Cycling for a third time, only one card with cycling is borderline playable in this deck (Viscera Dragger). Bant Sojourners and Anathemancer are both interesting, and also in the wrong colors. Overall, it's rather disappointing. Pulse fights with E.E. in the maindeck I think, I'll test both, but Explosives probably wins that fight, since Legacy is much more concentrated around casting cost than name. Killing Tombstalker is about the only advantage Pulse has over E.E. that I can see off the top of my head. Pridemage fights with Grip in the sideboard, and pretty much loses that fight straight up. So basically, ARB most likely doesn't really affect the deck at all.

TheLion,

Yeah, after playing against Prog/Order more, I think I'm willing to just say "ok, that beats me if I can't resolve a Decree or kill you in two turns."

Malchar,

The reason I haven't messed with Reveillark in Slide in Legacy isn't because it's not good - it is, but rather because it makes the deck even more GY dependent and other, harder to hate alternatives like Volrath's Stronghold are available.

I agree on the efficacy of the Stax shell. It just seems to deal better with more of Slide's problems than trying to be all 1cc aggro-control does. I have thougt about 3sphere, but haven't tested it. I think it would be more of a board card rather than a maindeck one. Finally, I think Sensei's Divining Top is just plain better than Scroll Rack. If I were going to run one of those, it would definitely be the Top long before I got to the Scroll.

EQ.Firemind,

Compost is an interesting suggestion. I'll look into it when I have some spare time.

Gamegeek2,

There are two problems I've discovered with Intuition. #1) it mostly helps in matchups you're going to win anyways, and does little in matches that are unfavorable to you. #2) It's off color and trying to fit it in chews up the manabase.

------------
Finally, if you didn't already know, I took this deck (the GBw list in the first post) through the 8th MTGSalvation Legacy Tournament. It won, going 7-0-2. An earlier version of that build went 4-2 in the 7th MTGS. If you think that tournament isn't competitive or don't like the site or whatever, that's fine, but this thread isn't the place to discuss that.

I'm still not really happy with the sideboard. Currently it's 3x each of Ethersworn Canonist, Extirpate, Lapse of Certainty, Krosan Grip, and Ghostly Prison. Problem matchups are medium speed Combo with lots of protection and Aggro with lots of mana denial. To an extent, these are structural problems, with the basic design of the deck making it good vs. board control, counter control, mid-range, and aggro-control at the expense of these other deck types.

I'd love to hear suggestions from other players on ways to either target and beat specific decks that fall into those categories (mono-red goblins, FT, Eva Green) or that target the strategies employed by those decks in a specific way.

Sigar

04-22-2009, 07:21 PM

I currently run a GWr version with 2-3 Rift main, and they are very good vs weenie, goblins, etc.

I also run Burning Wish and Sensei Top which are great against mid range decks like Rock and Eva Green.

It's hard to make room for all the good cards AND the cycle cards. Right now I am 100% dependant on loam/cycle lands to make Slide work. Burning Wish obviously helps achieving that goal. I have considered Spark Spray and Renewed Faith, but they are only great in some match ups, so it's kinda hard to cut stp or something else powerful for them.

easyrider

04-27-2009, 02:44 PM

I played this list to a top 4 of a 19 person tournament last Wednesday. I went 2-1-1 in the swiss beating two Faeries decks, drawing with another, and losing to a MUC deck with counterbalance (Back to Basics destroyed me.) I beat a Landstill deck in the top 8.

4 Astral Slide
4 Vindicate
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Eternal Witness
4 Life from the Loam
4 Unearth
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secluded Steppe
3 Barren Moor
1 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland
SB:
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
4 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grip

No one plays Storm Combo where I play, so that's the reason for the lack of Chalices or Chants. I don't own a Savannah, so I was replaced by a Forest. Yes, it was bad.

I have a couple questions. I apologize in advance if these have been answered on the previous pages. Sigar could I see your list? I'm seeing a lot lists without Mox Diamond. Is it only worth playing if you're playing Chalices? The deck is very slow already, (my version at least) and mana acceleration seems like it would be very good. I don't like Wall of Roots because I would rather play Wish or Loam on turn 2, and it being Sworded when I need it would be terrible.

morgan_coke

04-27-2009, 09:38 PM

easyrider,

A couple of suggestions on your build.

Mana Acceleration: Mox Diamond is the best option. After that you've got Search for Tomorrow (useful because it's a t1 play in a deck that doesn't have tons) Edge of Autumn (cycles) and Sakura-Tribe Elder (makes Unearth better and chumps, but not that great unless you've got a lot of aggro). Ancient Tomb is also great, but it doesn't seem like its abusable in your build.

Wish Targets: Move a witness to the sideboard along with the Volrath's Stronghold, possibly a Wasteland as well. The Hierarch should probably be a Finks given how much better it works with Unearth.

One final note, 4x deed and 4x mox hate each other.

AcidFiend

04-28-2009, 09:25 PM

morgan_coke: Nice work on this, I love Slide and was sad to see it be rotated out of Extended, but now I can work on this version :D

I'm just confused why the first post references Kokusho but the list itself contains 3 x Knight of the Reliq. Which creature are you testing?

Also Wasteland is mentioned though it is absent from the list as well.

morgan_coke

04-29-2009, 02:42 AM

thanks fiend, i think the first post is fixed now. wasteland is in the list as a singleton under "removal". its in removal instead of disruption because it's really just there to take out problematic ability lands, rather than destroying somebody's manabase.

Dark_Cynic87

04-29-2009, 01:54 PM

I think you guys should test out Tilling Treefolk. It does well, and lets you keep your draws as opposed to dredging loam every time. It opens up options, and that's good in a deck that's as difficult to play well as Slide is.

I also recommend approaching this list like a stompy build. 2-mana lands are good at letting you power out your slide, and even more so, the road less travelled with Slide, Trinisphere. Trinisphere is very much what slide may be missing. Fast decks beat slide before it gets up and going. However, paired with Moxen (Diamonds), you can drop out a trinisphere turn one and not be hurt. It allows you to get to the part of the game where your list shines--mid to late.

Just some ideas from my own playtesting.

Pce,

--DC

AcidFiend

04-30-2009, 12:29 AM

I think you guys should test out Tilling Treefolk. It does well, and lets you keep your draws as opposed to dredging loam every time. It opens up options, and that's good in a deck that's as difficult to play well as Slide is.

I tested TT pretty extensively in Extended Slide and while at first I loved it, I eventually went back to LftL.

Pros of TT:
Costs 3 (less likely to be CB'd)
Has great synergy with Astral Slide
Is a dude/chump blocker

Cons of TT:
Costs 3 (LftL costs 2)
If countered/discarded, it does nothing
Their creature removal has another target
Can be removed from game easier than LftL (Swords)

In the end, TT was often countered or discarded which just made it sub-par. Or they would Swords it and then it was gone for good. People rarely bother countering LftL because you just dredge it back, and they have better things to counter. If they do great, you can just get it back next turn.

So basically LftL is great by itself, while TT is really only great when you have a Slide in play.

Dark_Cynic87

04-30-2009, 11:32 AM

Tilling Treefolk gets around Extirpate and other graveyard hate (this is a big deal whether you admit it or not), chalice @ 2 (this happens fairly often to me; Dragon stompy, stax, etc.), and CB. Chalice @ 2 is how many decks play against Loam-based lists. I'm not saying play it instead of Loam, I'm saying in addition to. Also the fact that it costs 3, with 2 of the 3 being generic mana, is more synergistic with 2-mana lands that indeed let you power out a trinisphere/slide/anything else by turn 1/2, with the exception of Witness, which isn't something you want to play early anyway. It makes Heirarch a turn 2/3 drop with Mox Diamond, which is something that should be played IMO with all the land and land recursion.

I think also that people have forgotten the saga cycling lands, which go well with 2-mana lands; and I don't mean you should play all saga lands, but I think they should have a place; this also gets away from them Needling your cycling lands as you have more of a variety. It's one of the wisest decisions for your opponent to Needle cycling lands IMO.

I think more fliers should be looked into, such as Exalted, as it morphs for the cost of a cycling land and is definitely better than Loxodon. Speaking of Hierarch, I like Aven Riftwatcher over it because it can be a turn 1 blocker that gains 2 life right off the bat (That's an ancient tomb tap), and blocks well, plus the evasion of flying. You can have a Slide out before it expires with vanishing easy. And there's always witness.

Evasion is important, moat is gaining popularity again, Tombstalker is a biggy, and I think the flying will win us more games in the long run.

Pce,

--DC

AcidFiend

05-04-2009, 03:58 AM

Tilling Treefolk gets around Extirpate and other graveyard hate (this is a big deal whether you admit it or not)

Firstly, I never said gravehard hate was not a big deal. You make it sound like I'm in denial to weaken my points when I'm not. However decks that run Extirpate usually run Thoughtseize, so no card is Extirpate-proof. Also, the most common creature removal in Legacy is probably Swords, which your Treefolk dies to (Loam is Sword-proof). Treefolk costs 1 more and gets you back one less land, the latter of which I think can make a difference.

chalice @ 2 (this happens fairly often to me; Dragon stompy, stax, etc.), and CB. Chalice @ 2 is how many decks play against Loam-based lists.

As morgan_coke states, this deck isn't afraid of Chalice @ 2, we even play Chalice ourselves. This is one slim point for TT however.

It makes Heirarch a turn 2/3 drop with Mox Diamond, which is something that should be played IMO with all the land and land recursion.

Are you saying Tilling Treefolk makes Heirarch a turn 2/3 drop? Please explain. If you are saying TT offsets the fact Mox Diamond requires you to pitch a land, then yes I agree, but Loam does the same.

Maybe you are right tho and something else could be cut, to make a Loam/Treefolk 3/2 mix or something, I don't know the deck structure well enough to know what could be cut.

I think more fliers should be looked into, such as Exalted, as it morphs for the cost of a cycling land and is definitely better than Loxodon.

Goblins can kill you on turn 3/4, Naya Burn / Burn turn four as well. If you are on the draw, Exalted isn't going to save you. You'll die before you flip her and get the life back. The Extended Slide decks didn't even run Angel in the end, and you have much faster decks to race in Legacy. No-ones saying shes not good, shes great, but Hierarch gives you instant life and a big body straight away.

morgan_coke

05-04-2009, 01:42 PM

Tilling Treefolk doesn't compete with Life from the Loam. They're entirely different cards. Tilling Treefolk's real competitors are Cartographer and Hag Hedge-Mage as backups to Eternal Witness.

Flying is significantly less important in Legacy for small creatures. Trygon Predator, Tombstalker, and Mystic Enforcer are the only creatures with flying that see significant play in the format right now. Riftwatcher stalls Predator and only chumps the other two while otherwise being much, much smaller.

Exalted Angel is cute, and I really, really wanted it to be good. But it's not, even with the speed boost from Mox and Tomb. "dies to everything" is a good argument against a creature only when it needs to stay in play for multiple turns to be effective or consumes significant resources to cast it. Both of those statements apply to Angel, and it does suffer from "dies to everything" disease.

Running 3Sphere instead of Chalice is a very interesting idea and one that I will be looking into shortly.

morgan_coke

07-13-2009, 12:20 AM

I haven't updated this in forever, and the M10 changes just announced at first glance seem like a big kick in the nutz to this deck. Also, the recent blocks, despite including cycling cards, haven't had a lot to offer this particular version of Slide.

First I'll cover the M10 changes.

Combat damage doesn't use the stack. This is actually a much smaller deal than it first appears to be. Tarmogoyf is the dominant creature in Legacy. Tarmogoyf is bigger than all of your guys except Knight. Knight doesn't need Slide to survive combat with 'Goyf. Hierarch and Witness aren't going to kill 'Goyf whether they deal damage before they Slide out or not. The only times I've really found the stack damage then escape play to be used a lot in a single match are vs. tribal decks like Goblins and Merfolk. In other words, this is a negative in Tribal matchups, and generally neutral in most others.

Mana Burn is gone. This is universally a positive, as Ancient Tomb + Loam/Witness means the deck often took a point or three of mana burn per game. Ancient Tomb now essentially reads: T: Pay 2 life. Add 2 or 1 mana to your mana pool.

Exile/RFG/Wishes. The nerfing of the Wishes powers up another card that hasn't really seen much play in Legacy, but is great for dealing with problem decks for Slide: Cranial Extraction. CE is great at taking away a combo decks' win conditions, and in Slide is often cast on T2 or T3 as the second or third piece of disruption, but previously, it was simply not effective as hate because a deck could simply Wish back whatever you took from them. Now, that isn't an option, as whatever card you take to Exile is now gone forever. This really improves combo and board control matchups as you can take away whatever took your opponent was planning on using to beat you with.

Secondly, new cards.

Acidic Slime. I would love this so, so much more if it only cost 2GG, but it doesn't, so we have to deal. This card is a great way eliminate both non-flying creatures and problem lands/artifacts/enchantments.

Maelstrom Pulse. A Vindicate alternate that can wipe out token swarms at the cost of hitting lands. Slightly superior to Vindicate in this deck since you can still hit problem lands with Wasteland/Loam action.

That's pretty much it for cards for Slide. Wizards released a lot of cyclers in SCA, but they were almost universally limited filler, which is pretty disappointing. Hopefully future sets will bring back tourny level cycling cards.

The main changes I see this making in the deck are in the sideboard, where Extirpate/Lapse of Certainty get replaced by CE/E. Plague to both improve the combo/board control matches and help offset the greater weakness to Tribal decks.

Meteorain007

07-13-2009, 07:25 PM

I've been running a GWr build of Slide at my local tourneys and have been fairly successful with it. I played T2 during Onslaught block so I had the traditional R/W slide deck. Then I started playing some legacy and added green to my deck for obvious reasons (Witness, Loam). In the 4 tournaments I've played, I've t8'ed 3 times (about 25 people per tourney).

My list isn't optimal. I don't feel like investing lots of money in duals, more fetches, etc. Considering my decks is most often times the least expensive deck in the field, I've been impressed with it's performance. Here's my list:

Land: 27
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Secluded Steppe
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Nantuko Monastery
3 Mountain
4 Plains
4 Forest

Creatures: 10
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks

Enchantments: 6
3 Astral Slide
3 Lightning Rift

Sorcery: 9
3 Life from the Loam
2 Wrath of God
4 Edge of Autumn

Instant: 8
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Renewed Faith

SB:
3 Boil
3 Trinisphere
3 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Relic of Progenitus

I also wonder why you run black? The only maindeck cards are expunge, Decree of pain, and volrath's stronghold. Black is useful for disruption, but I don't see any black disruption MD. I always liked black because of cards like unearth, skriekmaw, etc, but I couldn't justify taking out lightning rift. From my experience, it's been too useful, and more often than not it's my primary win condition.

And I completely agree on Acidic Slime. It's a great card for slide, but I do wish that it costs less. 5 CC I feel is too steep in an already slow deck. It may require more testing though.

Regardless, Slide is awesome, and the first time I played legacy, I thought I would lose every single game in 4 turns, surprisingly, I made t8. Slide really shines when people are unprepared/unknowledgable about the archtype and how to deal with it.

sco0ter

07-13-2009, 07:59 PM

@Meteorain007:
Nice list. You play nearly the same deck as I do. Though I found Renewed Faith too useless. I dropped it entirely.
I play a Glittering Wish toolbox and no Knight, but Hierarch, which I found better than the Knight. But if you play Knight replace 1 Monastery with 1 Wasteland.
Add Engineered Explosives maybe. And 3 Duals ;-)

Meteorain007

07-13-2009, 09:05 PM

I know what you mean about renewed faith, I would drop it for more useful cards, but I feel that my deck lacks cycling cards as it is. Outside of lands, it's just renewed faith and edge of autumn. And I'd hate to have to rely on loam to get any cycling done (gy hate). It's also a nice card to pick up each turn with witness/slide.

If manage to get my hands on a wasteland, that's definitely a good 1-of to have. Same with duals, especially the plains ones, they have great synergy with flagstones.

Hierarchs are good, but I prefer knights bc they own goyf late game.

Haven't tried EE, but it seems that everyone I play uses it against me.

Legacy

07-16-2009, 03:05 PM

You guys should give Tilling Treefolk another shot. Don't you find against counterbalance.dec you lose to a 2cc on top their library? say you have astral slide out, they have CB, a single 2cc will stop you, so with TT in play, you are laughing at CB. Early game i use him to re-use two cycling lands to dig for astral slide.
Here is my list for reference.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Eternal Witness
3x Loxodon Hierarch
3x Tilling Treefolk
2x Wickerbough Elder

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Wrath of god
4x Astral Slide
3x Life from the loam
2x Engineered Explosives

3x Mox Diamond
2x Ancient Tomb
4x Windswept Heath
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x forest
2x plains
1x wasteland

4x tranquil thicket
4x secluded steppe
1x Barren Moor

Chalice is good against the format. So if you are worried about speed, between the acceleration in the deck, chalice and tarmogoyf, you should be okay to make it to mid-late game where you can take over.

arebennian

07-24-2009, 01:43 PM

Morgan_Coke,

Two points:

1) You noted that you wanted a big flyer that gave you life when it came into play. This was before you included chalice in the build, but what do you think of Baneslayer Angel? Elspeth does a better job?

2) I'm not sure that a cycled decree will be a genuine board clearer against Tribal decks in the future. Two Lords on the field will stop it's effect and they are likely to counter your attempts, or if they run 12 put another one down, to kill one before you cycle. The new lords may well be a bane rather than a boon.
Not uncounterable, but Rout as an option if my hypothesis is correct?

morgan_coke

07-24-2009, 04:49 PM

1) Baneslayer is just Exalted without Morph. I think Kokusho is still your best bet for this role. Which basically means there isn't a great option for this job right now.

2) Yeah, there is definitely a critical lord mass where cycled Decree starts sucking. I don't know if we've reached it yet, but it is getting closer. One bonus is that if you have a Slide out, you can RFG one lord with it when you cycle. This is also why I'm leaning towards including Engineered Plague in the board, to help combat the expected increase in number and power of Tribal decks post M10.

To give a really good answer to this question I'll need to playtest a bunch of games against tribal decks with post M10 cards and rules. Since I haven't done that yet, I can't give you a super great answer yet. Sorry.

Legacy,

TT doesn't work as a backup to LftL. It's a backup to witness. And the best backup to Witness right now is Hag Hedge-Mage.

Meteo,

That's a great anti-aggro, anti-control list. You fold to combo, but so does goblins. Nothing wrong with conceding a match that doesn't exist in your meta.

Meteorain007

07-26-2009, 06:51 PM

After some testing, I really think acidic slime warrants a place in this deck. Yes, it's slow, at 5 cc, but I think it's worth it. It's at the very worst a 2 for 1, and it's almost as abusable as witness with slide out. Most decks run very few lands (thresh, aggro). If it's unanswered with slide out, the game is pretty much over in 2-3 turns.

If you don't have slide out, it can trade with goyfs, mongeese, etc. I think having two of these would be great for this deck. Recurrable creeping mold on a stick is just nasty. Also MD enchantment/artifact removal, which is always a bonus.

The Professor

07-30-2009, 07:58 PM

Here was last night's rundown with my Slide variant. I found some holes, for sure.

Creatures:

4x Tarmogoyf
3x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Eternal Witness
2x Loxodon Hierarch
2x Terravore
1x Eternal Dragon

Spells:

4x Astral Slide
4x Cataclysm
4x Mox Diamond
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Path to Exile
3x Life from the Loam

Lands:

4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Secluded Steppe
4x Tranquil Thicket
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Plains
1x Forest
1x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Nantuko Monastery

This, as can be seen, is a tad different in that it plays Cataclysm. I had Wrath of Gods in that slot for years, but the synergy can't be ignored:

Astral Slide (Slide something out and Cataclysm for nuts advantage)
Tarmogoyf (fills up graveyards with all kinds of goodies, even planeswalkers)
Terravore (if you have one creature left after a Cataclysm, Terravore is almost always bigger than their pick, and he tramples)
Knight of the Reliquary (wonderful creature. Toolbox and basher all in one. See my lands for the "toolbox" effect. Also wonderfully large after Cataclysm)
Path to Exile (they get a land before you Cataclysm and it is sacced)
Path to Exile 2 (Exile their remaining creature)
Swords to Plowshares (see above)
Life from the Loam (Get back your goodies you just blew up)
Note that your Mox DIamonds always stay, as well as your Astral Slides, as they are the only Artifact/Enchantment the deck has

The problems I've had over the years and my current debates:

#1. Slow. Mox Diamonds are wonderful in here, but, as always, I HATE to see them mid-game and late-game. There are games where Cataclysm does exactly what I always wanted it to and I slam in for 15 or more, but many games are pretty reliant on recursion and cycling out their attackers.
#2. Related, awkward starts. Yes, I've got Paths and Swords to play with early, but the speed is still an issue. I have yet to try Ancient Tomb.
#3. The balance between good cards and cyclers. I've run the gamut of cyclers and, at the moment, feel like there simply isn't enough cycling in here now. I've always like Edge of Autumn, but my Basic count has slowly declined over the years.
#4. To Goyf or not to Goyf. He's awesome, no doubt, but many times, I'd rather rely on Terravore or Knight (Knight for sure would go to a 4-of) to beat face. Loxodon Hierarch is no joke, either, especially with Slide out.
#5. Three or four Astral Slides. A somewhat minor issue, but relevant nonetheless. With the amount of cycling cards slowly declining, 4 Astral Slides have seemed a bit much. But, as any fan of this deck knows, Astral Slide is a very strong card when out.

Anyway, for time sake, I'll say that I did well against a mono-blue faerie deck. I had an early Slide, he Force of Will-ed my next turn Cataclysm, but I played another one next turn to have a mighty fat Goyf and cycled-out Knight. I don't think he knew what to counter.

I got raped by stupid burn. Bolts, Chain Lightnings, Rift Bolts, etc. etc. That's to be expected, I guess, and that's surely not a common deck in my meta.

WGr Zoo. I totally owned. No counterspells and the ding-dong didn't side any Grips or Graveyard hate, so it turned out to be a pretty ideal match. If he went more burn-heavy, I would have felt it more, I think.

The other decks in my meta are lame, so just know that I did ok against them, besides the above-mentioned issues.

Meteorain007

07-31-2009, 06:09 PM

The biggest problem I have right now with slide is speed as well. Mox diamonds are great, except for late game, and can be the necessary boost that it needs. I don't have any moxes so I just play Edge of Autumn w/ Flagstones, and they seem to work out decently. I've liked the play on turn 2. Edge also cycles, which helps, and has pretty good synergy with Cataclysm.

Cataclysm always seems like such a powerful card, but I never thought of it in a slide deck. Slide is very many hungry so I always assumed that it would ruin any slide deck. I guess having moxes and loams help recover.

I run 3 slides, fo sho, 4 seems like too many, and unless you have a ton of land out to drop a slide and a creature and still have 1-2 left over to cycle, then having extras isn't really worth it. With loam engine going, you won't really ever need more than 1 in play. That being said, I also play 3 rifts in my deck, so I have a total of 6 enchantments that I don't want cluttering up my hand. Since you don't run red, maybe 4 slides is ok.

I've don't run tarmogoyf in my build (bc I don't own them), but I'd think that he would be great bc it comes down turn two, as opposed to witness, knight, terravore. It's true that knight/terravore are better late game finishers, I still think that goyf is great bc it's goyf.

Either way, I'd like to make the crazy suggestion of running kitchen finks. I play him in my build, and it's just been so good. His persist does great in offsetting the loss of tempo bc the deck is inherently slow. It can buy a turn or two against really fast aggro decks, like goblins. lifegain is so underrated. I played against burn in my last tourney and it had nothing on my 3x finks and 4x renewed faith. In conjunction with Mox diamond, turn 2 finks can buy you a good turn or 2 to set up slide/wrath/cataclysm or whatever. personally, if I had goyfs, I'd play them, but I don't so I run finks and I haven't regretted it.

morgan_coke

08-01-2009, 03:09 AM

The frontpage list originally had cataclysms in it along with flagstones. They went away because pretty much everyone keeps 3-4 very useful permanents after you resolve one now.

Thresh: CB/Top/Goyf/Tropical Island + land they dazed back to their hand.

Goblins: Mountain/Warchief/vial

Landstill: Land/CB/Crucible

ITF: Land/Top/Deed

etc. etc.

After resolving Cataclysm you'll often be in a neutral or worse board position than your opponent is, even if you design your deck around it because Slide wants more mana than most other Legacy decks do, so setting yourself back like this is counterproductive.

This is also the reason I've dropped Wasteland to a one-of. Your land drops are simply more valuable to you than your opponents' are. This means that its only rarely worth it to blow one of yours to negate one of theirs.

I've generally found four slides to be one too many. I'd run 3.5 if I could as sometimes three isn't quite enough, but 3 is almost always better than four in this deck.

Professor, you're only running 9 cyclers total. thats an awful lot of pressure you're putting on loam to produce for you. Radiant's Judgement is a great cycling card that's good to hardcast too that you should probably think about looking at for your deck.

I've also found Elspeth to be very useful in Slide decks as a one or two of.

On speed issues, run both Tomb and Mox. Once you get used to playing Slide with them it becomes almost impossible to go back. Seriously.

Finks vs. Hierarch is really meta/deck dependent. They both have their own advantages and disadvantages. If you run Unearth, then finks wins hands down, otherwise, it's really variable as to which is better.

The Professor

08-01-2009, 06:10 AM

How many Radiant's Judgements usually? That is indeed a solid card.

Meteorain007

08-01-2009, 11:03 PM

How useful is radiant's judgement really? What else does it kill besides goyf and Tombstalker? I suppose you could just cycle it away.

morgan_coke

08-01-2009, 11:41 PM

Dreadnought, teravore, crusher, knight, enforcer, coatl, piledriver, wake thrasher, jotun grunt, etc. Judgement kills pretty much everything but utility creatures like bob and pridemage. Its extremely useful.

arebennian

08-05-2009, 02:54 AM

Morgan,

Anyplaytesting done with 3Sphere?
What is your opinion of Acidic Slime? Any further testing done?

Koby

08-05-2009, 02:59 AM

Acidic Slime would be a good addition to perhaps current Extended builds. At 5 mana however it's really cost prohibitive.

tedin

08-06-2009, 02:34 AM

Hi all,
I can't see how to play Astral Slide without Street Wraith, this card is just too good to be ignored!
I tried to set up a list but I didn't tested much:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
5 [UNH] Plains
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [ON] Secluded Steppe
5 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [ON] Astral Slide
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [B] Wrath of God
3 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

All cards are pretty obvious, Orim's Chants are there to slow down the opponent in the early game or as a protection to safely cast astral slide.
Loxodon Hieratics can become Kitchen Finks, and Sakura-Tribe Elder can become BoP/Noble Hierarch.

Aggro_zombies

08-06-2009, 06:19 AM

Hi all,
I can't see how to play Astral Slide without Street Wraith, this card is just too good to be ignored!
I still don't think this deck is viable, but I'll jump in here to comment on this.

Street Wraith isn't good. At all. Sure, it's "free" to cycle, but m_c's list is a controllish deck, and control decks don't typically want to speed up their opponent's clock by shocking themselves in the face to draw one card. There's also the fact that Street Wraith is absolutely terrible if you actually tried to play it.

In short, for two life, I'd rather just pay two mana for Night's Whisper and at least get card advantage. Triggers off of the cycling don't redeem a completely mediocre card.

I tried to set up a list but I didn't tested much:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
5 [UNH] Plains
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [ON] Secluded Steppe
5 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
4 [CHK] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [ON] Astral Slide
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
3 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [B] Wrath of God
3 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

All cards are pretty obvious, Orim's Chants are there to slow down the opponent in the early game or as a protection to safely cast astral slide.
Loxodon Hieratics can become Kitchen Finks, and Sakura-Tribe Elder can become BoP/Noble Hierarch.
Your only realistic win condition is Loxodon Hierarch. I find this amusing in light of both the comments I made at the beginning of the thread and LSV's recent article about midrange decks.

Also, a straight green-white build hasn't been competitive since the days of Onslaught-Mirrodin Standard.

morgan_coke

08-10-2009, 09:22 PM

I've tested acidic slime, and I really like the effect, but it just comes at a little bit too high of a price. Honestly, I'd run Break Asunder first. Not saying Slime is bad, just not quite good enough.

I haven't yet tested 3spheres in place of chalices.

I am getting good results from shriekmaw in the sideboard instead if engineered plague vs. Tribal decks. 'Maw really does bad things to elves and Merfolk and bant survival/thresh.

morgan_coke

08-11-2009, 10:18 AM

Meteorain007

08-12-2009, 10:57 PM

I've also found slime to be a tad slow. I played it in a tourny, and it's impact doesn't come until late, where you should be in control of the game to begin with. It's a great card, but most decks are just too fast for it, even with acceleration.

morgan_coke

09-29-2009, 05:03 AM

Zendikar deck update complete. The following changes occured:

Maindeck:
-2 Windswept Heath
+2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
-4 Cranial Extraction
+4 ???
-2 Engineered Plague
+2 Shriekmaw

That seems low given how good Zendikar is, so I'll go through the reasoning on some of the more promising useful cards and why they're not here.

Emeria Angel
I'm a lot higher on this card than most people, but I also have an affinity for 4 mana 3/3s that make tokens, so, whatever. The WW in the CC kills it. Three toughness doesn't help either.

Luminarch Ascension
The deck already has better and faster win conditions than this thing.

World Queller
Really, really tempting. Needs to be tested. Probably not actually good enough. And too slow.

Mindbreak Trap
Canonist and Chalice are both better at hating on combo than this is. Might make it into the sideboard depending on what happens with the Cranial Extraction slots.

Bloodchief Ascension
Love the card, best card in Zendikar, but Slide will never, ever get it triggered early. Also, it fails the Chalice@1 test.

Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Gives the deck a "burn 'em out" option, which is huge. He's currently eyeing Elspeth's slot in the deck, but would probably only be run alongside her, as Elspeth is freaking amazing.

Ravenous Trap
Slide's Ichorid hate cards are Engineered Explosives and Ghostly Prison and Decree of Pain. This is a great card, but not exactly what this deck is looking for.

Sadistic Sacrement
I really, really, really cannot describe how much I want to run this. Unfortunately in a three color deck with Tomb and no Dark Ritual this will never, ever, never be cast in time to matter.

Sorin Markhov
Solid, fails the BBB test, but I wouldn't mind him as a backup 'Walker to Elspeth.

Cobra Trap
This deck can't really use four 1/1's profitably.

Lotus Cobra
Significant potential. Slide can almost always find a profitable use for extra mana, no matter how early or late it is in the game. Needs a lot of testing and probably something of a rebuild if he proves effective. Also has a strong chance to end up like Garruk Wildspeaker (ie, useful card that will just barely win you a bunch of games, and just barely not win you even more)

Summoning Trap
Generally speaking, I'd rather just have another creature than this. Also, most of Slide's guys are out of CB range already.

Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Not enough plains, but wow is that tempting.

Basically, in a "pick your own standard" format, Zendikar has tons of great stuff for slide, but in Legacy, most of what it offers is either redundant, or outclassed by things that are already present. Cobra, Ob, and Sorin have the most potential for this deck right now.

Decree of Pain is currently the weakest card in the maindeck, but I am unable to find a good, or even decent, alternative to it. Interested in hearing others' thoughts on this matter.

scatteringskies

12-01-2009, 03:18 PM

Just wanted to say how awesome your decklist is and that I'm glad you've put in a lot of effort so that players like me can have even the concept of the deck to work with. I literally made an account just to post in this specific thread.

I am curious (and this might be because I'm only recently playing Legacy and don't have a lot of experience), why not run Rift and red instead of black? I mean, your black consists of expunge and decree. From what I can tell, the deck looks to cycle its cards to find what it needs or to run the slide/cycle engine. With so much artifact/enchantment hate (Qasali and Grip comes to mind) there's a strong chance you either won't get Astral out or it's removed all together; why not add a second threat/clock. Having Rift out will answer all the small creatures that expunge would have answered anyway, while giving your early cycles a stronger impact. It'll also draw removal.

In addition, you can also place in more E.E., power keg, or even wrath to supplement decree. Your only real loss will be the option to cycle expunge, and the brilliant card replenishing effect of decree at 8. Both of which are slower compared to the speed you gain from rift and potential red spells.

Also, would you have advice on how to play the early game? I've had situations where I'm holding a few cycle cards (maybe even slide as well) and find that I don't have the lands to play the cards. Then I am forced to either cycle or hope for lands off the top. What's the best play here?

grahf

12-01-2009, 05:38 PM

I've had situations where I'm holding a few cycle cards (maybe even slide as well) and find that I don't have the lands to play the cards. Then I am forced to either cycle or hope for lands off the top. What's the best play here?

Also, would you have advice on how to play the early game?

I can sorta answer that. I've messed around with Slide, although with a somewhat different list than Morgan's. It's a really fun deck to play, isn't it?

Holding back cards will get you dead real fast. Cantripping with a cycle land on turn one is a pretty good play, if you have nothing else. It's your only draw engine, so you want to start digging asap. If your opener has two real lands and a cycle land, and you have no other turn one play, then by all means, play that cycle land tapped. Granted, I don't have the same quality mana accel that morgan does in my list (I don't own Mox Diamonds so I play Edge of Autumn instead), so it could work out differently. I wouldn't worry about cycling stuff without getting Slide triggers in the early game, because we have the crucially important Loam to get those cyclers back again and again.

There's two potential problems I see with splashing red into a GW list. I haven't tried it myself so this is just theory:

One is, if you feel like you don't have enough mana to play spells and cycle in the same turn, trying to keep an extra (1) open to activate Lightning Rift isn't going to help with that. Two is, a big reason to play red is Starstorm, but getting RR for your splash could stress the manabase.

Regardless, I think it is worth looking into. Rift could give Slide reach that it doesn't really have otherwise. There is a RW Slide list in the opening post of this thread, but Loam is so critical to how I play the deck that I'd feel naked without it.

Mark Sun

12-15-2009, 08:57 PM

Drizzy

12-15-2009, 09:41 PM

When I saw that someone posted on the thread, I remembered that I had kind of GW slide project that I worked on about year ago. I digged the list from MWS and it looks like that it could use some help:

// Lands
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [U] Savannah
7 [ARE] Forest (4)
5 [ARE] Plains (5)
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [ON] Secluded Steppe
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery

// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [FNM] Wall of Blossoms
2 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
3 [ON] Astral Slide
1 [JU] Solitary Confinement
2 [US] Exploration
3 [ON] Renewed Faith
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [7E] Wrath of God
1 [SC] Break Asunder

First, the manabase seems pretty wierd and second, there are maybe too many 1- and 2-ofs. I don't remember much about how I ended up with that list but I think I tested for around 20+ games against different decks.

I'd like to make the deck competitive and build it with physical cards. I know that it won't be as competitive as the tier decks but I guess it would be fun to play and might occasionally catch an unwary opponent.

Judging from the deck list it doesn't have enough cannon fodder to force Slide through against blue decks and it loses to storm decks unless it can stall for few turns and get Chant lock on. Exploration gives the deck speed so it does fairly well against aggro. But I'm still worried about the random 1- and 2-ofs.

Could someone more experienced submit some professional help? And what would other colors offer? And I'm sorry about that list, the deck could absolutely have more use for duals & fetches, somewhy I've been running around with big pile of basics and most of them could be replaced.

grahf

12-16-2009, 02:15 AM

Sooo. I got really bored today (home from college, what can I say?) so I decided to put this list in MWS and give it a shot. If anyone was on in the past hour, you probably saw me, and hell, even tested a little.

I got molested by Goblins worse than a little kid at Michael Jackson's house. Am I just missing something with this list? :eek:

How are the Goblin matchups turning out for people?

I don't think you are missing anything, it's just a slow deck, and there isn't yet agreement on a "best build." That's why this thread is perpetually stuck in N&D.

Which list did you use? One of the ones in the opening post of this thread? I know morgan_coke has done a lot of work on this deck, but I am honestly skeptical of those two lists. One doesn't have Swords to Plowshares (in favor of Chalice and more expensive black removal), and the other doesn't have Life from the Loam (no green). I think GWr is the way to go, however I have not yet tried such a configuration so my thoughts on this are mostly just theorycraft.

Some random thoughts:
Deck Needs Mox Diamonds. You really want to hit 3 mana on turn 2, the moxen would enable that.

Kitchen Finks over Hierarch. Costing 1 mana less is relevant, blocking twice is relevant. He'll lose his -1/-1 counter when he slides out, so potentially a near-perpetual blocker.

A red splash, instead of black. Red has much better and cheaper options than black for board sweeping: be that Firespout, Pyroclasm, or maybe Slice and Dice. There's also Lightning Rift... having Loam+Rift for recurring board control should be some good. Wrath might still be necessary just because it's Wrath.

I'm not sure why some people don't play 4 Slides. To me, this is like playing 3 Survivals in Survival, or 3 Counterbalances in Countertop. The deck doesn't do a whole lot without it. So what if you draw multiples? If your opponent hasn't removed it, you should be controlling the board. If they do remove it, you can play another. If you draw a multiple and genuinely don't need it, discard it and Witness back later if necessary (not hard to hit 8 cards in hand with all that Loaming).

I dunno really, read the thread, I'm not really saying anything new, most things have been tried, except curiously a GWr build, I had to go all the way to the old Slide thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=56302&postcount=29
The old thread has some good info too, the deck hasn't changed much in years (GW-based builds at least).

For a list that beats up on goblins, look at post #70 of this thread, BlindMage's list, he claims an 80/20 gobbos matchup. I think this was the list morgan_coke modified for the front page, but not necessarily for the better. To beat fast aggro we may need to drop some of the cute stuff that doesn't do much and play heavier red.

Mark Sun

12-17-2009, 01:14 PM

@ grahf: Yeah, I ran the list on the first page. I agree with the changes that you said, I'm interested to see what he has to say about it but he hasn't been on since Thanksgiving. I'll look over the old primer, I just wanted something to keep me busy over the holiday. Every time I start tweaking this thing I just end up with shitty GWb Aggro Loam. :tongue:

grahf

12-17-2009, 02:43 PM

Every time I start tweaking this thing I just end up with shitty GWb Aggro Loam. :tongue:

This is exactly the problem. If Astral Slide is the worst card in the deck, what is the point again exactly? Maybe that is why people run only 3 Slides.

I just don't see what black offers that is all that good. Expunge is terrible compared to StP. Getting 5 mana to cycle Decree of Pain is a fantasy when you're being Wasted, Ported, hit with Piledrivers, etc... Not to mention other tribal like Merfolk might just Stifle it, or just Vial in another Lord to negate the effect anyway. Ah, cycling tricks with Shriekmaw... cool, but cute and conditional too. Combo protection with Extirpate? I'm pretty sure this deck punts the combo matchup hard anyway, why bother trying.

So I really think heavier red is the way to go, probably with the only green cards being Loam and half of Firespout. Maybe Tarmogoyf too. Sure, everyone poo-pooed him, but then they wonder why they can't beat aggro...? I'm gonna get some Lightning Rifts and see what sticks.

If the deck keeps ending up looking like Aggro Loam but worse, then maybe heavier control is a direction worth exploring. I'd like to try out Eternal Dragons in here as well, which I haven't seen many lists use.

Dark_Cynic87

12-17-2009, 03:18 PM

Well maybe the construction process is what's screwing you up?

Maybe you should approach it this way:

Build a loam-themed list G/w/x, and then incorporate Slide into it. I always preferred a G/w/b list, but red has been good in the past for a lot of people.

I feel that the problem with this list is that it has always been so dependent on slide and loam. I liked that treefolk creature that let you grab two lands out of your yard as an alternate way to keep slide going without auto-losing to 'Pate.

Keep Slide in mind when you make card choices, but don't cater to the card. I feel that the problem has always been this, and that it should have been approached differently.

Pce,

--DC

morgan_coke

12-18-2009, 06:29 PM

Hi, sorry I haven't been keeping up on this lately. Been kinda taking a break from magic boards and whatnot lately. Ok, here's answers to everyone's questions. Hopefully they're answers you like.

Scatteringskies - I've found Rift to generally suck now. Outside of goblins, it just doesn't kill much anymore. Nacatl, Ape, 'Goyf, Merfolk with a lord out, etc, it just doesn't do nearly enough to justify the much heavier commitment to cycling it requires and it doesn't come online until t2-3 at the absolute earliest. Rift was awesome in older slide builds with wraths and whatnot because it let them deal with individual creatures for no card disadvantage, forcing the opponent to over commit to the board, thus powering up wog/starstorm/etc. That is no longer the case.

The decks that maindeck Grip/Pridemage are going to be busy killing your Chalice@1s and @2s before they start killing your Slides. Also, you have witness. The target overload is already present. I have no problem with replacing DoP with more e.e. or keg. I like decree better than having more of those other options, but DoP is easily one of the worst cards in the deck, so I have no problem losing it. Deed does not work with both Mox Diamond and Chalice if you were thinking about it.

Its easy to cycle yourself out of lands with a slide deck. My general rule of thumb is to play all cycling lands I draw until after I've got four+ mana sources on the board. Another good early game rule is that if you've got untapped mana at the end of the turn, you're doing it wrong. If you've got excess mana to cycle a card, whether you've got Slide out or not, its generally a good idea to cycle it.

Morbid

You're going to lose game one to goblins. Just accept it. G1 is something like 35-65, worse if they draw a lot of early LD or maindeck Goblin Tinkerer. G2 & 3 you get stuff like Shriekmaw and Ghostly Prison. Total beatings. Having a better game one vs. Thresh and Countertop variants is more important than having a good game one vs. goblins right now, and thats how the list is biased.

Grahf

Actually, this deck beats combo like a sick dog. Chalice md, canonist side, and the ability to drop them on turn one plus reasonable clocks like KotR and Loxodon/Espeth do a pretty solid job there. This particular decks real weakness is hastyfastbeats/burn, not combo.

On the Hierarch/Finks front, I currently like the Elephant because he gains you more life immediately, has higher toughness/power, and helps make the deck less clogged at the 3 spot. Also harder to CB. But Finks has just as many strong points going for it, the decision is really build, meta, and personality dependent.

Hope that helps everyone, I'll chime in with thoughts on Worldwake when it finishes coming out.

morgan_coke

03-17-2010, 12:23 AM

Necroy-ish bump post made worthwhile/justified due to the absolutely massive rewrite I did on the first post. Seriously, go read the first post. It's updated, more organized, and generally 1000000% better now. Also includes card tags and stuff. And new decklists.

Ok, no seriously, go read the first post.

Read it yet? No? Go read it before commenting. It's cool, I'll wait.

Zaemu

03-17-2010, 02:19 AM

Fuckin' sweet update! Personally I'd swap MD Clear and Decay for Vindicate/Pulse though.

Awesome underpants gnome reference btw. ;)

/Z

Eldar

03-17-2010, 11:02 PM

Let me see if I can remember my original slide list from 2 extended seasons back as well as my one from last season.

Nah cannot find either list but I think the oldest one was something like this:

Creatures: 12
4-Sakura-Tribe Elder
3-Loxodon Hierarch
3-Eternal Witness
2-Eternal Dragon

Enchantments: 7
4-Astral Slide
3-Solitary Confinement

Sorceries: 11
3-Wrath of God
3-Life from the Loam
3-Living Wish
2-Decree of Justice

Instants: 3
3-Renewed Faith

Lands: 27
4-Windswept Heath
4-Tranquil Thicket
4-Secluded Steppe
3-Temple Garden
2-Barren Moor
2-Treetop Village
2-Forest
2-Plains
1-Swamp
1-Ghost Quarter
1-Murmuring Bosk
1-Godless Shrine

Sideboard:
3-Gaddock Teeg
3-Extirpate
1-Indrink Stomphowler
1-Yixlid Jailer
1-Mystic Enforcer
1-Loxodon Hierarch
1-Eternal Witness
Some other wish targets

This list worked amazingly for me and solitary confinement is a house against pretty much everything and seems fantastic in legacy now too. I mean it is theoretically good against (ANT, Gobbos, Burn, Dream Halls, Reanimator, Zoo, etc)

If I were to build a list as if it were in legacy now it would probably be something like this:

Creatures: 3
3-Eternal Witness

Enchantments: 7
4-Astral Slide
3-Solitary Confinement

Sorceries: 10
4-Edge of Autumn
3-Life from the Loam
3-Living Wish

Artifacts: 5
4-Mox Diamond
1-Engineered Explosives

Instants: 6
4-Swords to Plowshares
2-Clear

Lands: 29
4-Tranquil Thicket
4-Secluded Steppe
2-Windswept Heath
2-Misty Rainforest
2-Savannah
2-Tropical Island
2-Tolaria West
2-Forest
2-Plains
1-Island
1-Tundra
1-Lonely Sandbar
1-Academy Ruins
1-Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1-Wasteland
1-Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Sideboard: 15
1-Baneslayer Angel
1-Loxodon Hierarch
1-Eternal Witness
1-Tilling Treefolk
1-Trinket Mage
1-Knight of the Reliquary
1-Ethersworn Canonist
1-Indrik Stomphowler
1-Meddling Mage
1-Glacial Chasm
1-Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1-Chalice of the Void
1-Zuran Orb
1-Tormod's Crypt
1-Pithing Needle

I think there should probably be some other cards in there possibly a karakas and a gilded drake in the board but it is very tight and I don't know what I would cut.

Of course this is a very rough list and I think I want to do too much with this deck but it looks very fun ^.^

Gocho

03-18-2010, 08:00 AM

Very good Primer! Great work.

Only some tags bugs:

In The Core section, cards aren't tagged
In Colors, blue, Life from the loam are semitagged.
In Colors, red, Hide / Seek must be tagged as a single name to times: Hide/Seek,

(cards)Hide(/cards)/(cards)Seek(/cards)
In the Matchups section, cards aren't tagged.

arebennian

03-18-2010, 09:01 AM

I would have thought that Intuition and the ability to pick up a real counterspell each turn would make blue at least worth testing.
I'm sure you have, but why didn't you like it?
I don't feel your anti-blue summation is strong enough.
Please elaborate.

morgan_coke

03-18-2010, 02:52 PM

Thanks for the proofreading guys. I fixed the tagging issues and went ahead and expanded on the reasons why blue isn't good in the deck. If you catch any more faults or have more suggestions, feel free to share them and I'll try to address them. Again, thanks.

Eldar: Solitary confinement does nothing for you that Chant doesn't, is much less versatile, imposes severe costs, and it's vulnerable to counterbalance hate, which every single deck in the format is packing. Unless some significant meta changes occur, that cards day has passed.

(nameless one)

03-18-2010, 03:13 PM

Has anyone tried using ideas from decks such as Quinn, Enchantress or even LandStill?

I mean with the prevelance of Zoo, Bant and CounterTop; I am assuming that Qasali Pridemages and Trygon Predators hurts? Possibly this deck can run Humility?

Of course, the trade of is Eternal Witness wont be as effective. I am still thinking of ways to recycle your graveyard back to your library or hand. Any suggestions?

Gocho

03-18-2010, 03:47 PM

If you want to recycle your library to your deck, you can play Wheel of Sun and Moon, but you can't use Eternal Witness and Life from the Loam, with it.

Eldar

03-19-2010, 02:18 AM

It does nothing that chant doesn't do for you? Hmm let us ponder this shall we? Last time I checked chant stalls agro decks like goblins for one turn whereas a softlock with solitary practically just wins you the game against them. Even if they manage to kill it with counterbalance hate that seems fine because it keeps your slide alive instead. Chant doesn't eat removal for enchantments. Solitary is less versatile against decks like ANT and such however it is also much harder to deal with. They need to have a bounce spell if it sticks and then have a duress/thoughtseize or counter to deal with it unlike chant which just gets hosed by a duress/thoughtseize or counter. Also unlike chant confinement stops problem cards like trygon predator in its tracks, and keeps your hand intact against discard. It seems infinitely better than chant to me. Trust me 2 extended seasons back I tried every card out there to try to improve my matchup vs TEPS and Ideal and in the end solitary was that card. It wasn't great mind you but it did win me an amusing game against Ideal when he didn't ideal in his upkeep with a form out to get his own solitary and killed himself. Sadly both chant and gilded light at the time were just infinitely worse and while I did try to play them at times they didn't bring me the game that solitary did. If you are so worried about decks like goblins and zoo then perhaps it is worth a look in solitary's direction, I personally do not think this card's time has past.

morgan_coke

03-19-2010, 03:02 AM

nameless one,

Humility is a card that hoses this deck. There is no universe where running it yourself is a good idea.

Eldar,

posting angry because your preferred card is outdated does not make your arguments stronger, it makes them weaker and more dismissable. Every single thing Solitary Confinement does for you, - disrupting combo, stopping attacks, providing a lock, Chant does better. If you disagree, that's fine, but you're basing your assumptions on your personal experience in a limited number of games from a different format two years ago. There's really not much relevant crossover to justify your comparison.

Zaemu

03-19-2010, 09:10 AM

I completely agree with morgan on the chant vs confinement issue. Ideally you should be sliding out creatures like trygon predator etc. Though pridemage still poses somewhat of a problem, the recursion power of witness and the card advantage of cycling often outweighs their kitties in the long run (At least in the Zoo matchup). ^^

(nameless one)

03-19-2010, 10:54 AM

Would the Mangara removal trick work here?

(Tap Mangara for his ability, then Slide him away during resolution. You get him back at the end of turn and the removed permament is no more)

morgan_coke

03-19-2010, 11:14 AM

Yep, Mangara tricks work here. I've thought about using him in conjunction with Slide, Knight of the Reliquary, and Karakas, but it always seemed like Danger of Cool Things. I've never tested it, so I could be wrong about that.

Also, Zoo is more likely to burn a pridemage on a Chalice (if you run them) than on a Slide. Same with Thresh.

EDIT: If I were going the Mangara route, I'd run a package of Karakas, Bojuka Bog, and Kor Haven as my land targets for KoTR.

morgan_coke

05-09-2010, 07:32 PM

Updated the decklists and with RoE cards. Added another section to the primer, and added sideboarding advice to the matchup analysis.

If you haven't given this deck a try, I strongly recommend it, its been performing extremely well online, even though all the cards for it aren't available there yet.

Sorry about the double post, but its been over a month and theres a lot of new content in the opener to justify it.

Resist_Temptation

05-11-2010, 10:15 PM

I let a friend force feed me the "slide is too slow" speech and I just have to throw out there that the format has many slow decks. Stax is slow. Landstill is slow. Lands is...slow at times... The slow decks have to have answers that either, excelt them into the mid-late game, or stall the opponent to get into the mid-late game. This deck has those tools. I have watched many of Morgan's mtgo matches in the dailys, and granted his life total does not stay at 20, he wins a fair number of games. Too ignore the deck becuase it is slow is just not giving the deck credit. The deck may be easily hated out..(all the hate cards happen to hate out a certain highly popular counterbalance.) but the deck does not absolutely need to have it to win.

Has anyone looked into running barbarian ring? its loamable? It might be easier to just run rift but it happens to be a land and kinda difficult to hate out a 1of in a person's deck.

in the finks vs hierarch debate, enough of the T1/T2 decks are running swords to plowshares, so I find that worrying about the persist is not a question that should be beaten as much as it is.

Mangara seems to be way too slow for this deck. If there was a way for vial to be in here with karakas perhaps, but as it is maybe mangara should stay over in death and taxes.

While I would not look into playing this, I think that it is a viable option in this metagame. I would love to see deed fit in here, but with the moxes, it seems to be a bad direction for the deck to go.

morgan_coke

06-22-2010, 05:28 PM

In light of the recent Banned List changes, I've started to take stock of what changes this deck can profitably make given the expected meta shift away from combo and reanimator and towards CB, board control, and aggro decks. I honestly wouldn't mess with the maindeck of either version right now, but the sideboards are an entirely different story. Chalice-based seems pretty obvioius, -4 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Trinisphere, +2 Armageddon. Slight reduction in your game vs. combo due to expecting to see it less often, slight increase in your game vs. other board control type decks.

Chant-based is a lot harder however, given that the majority of its combo hate was in the board, and its sideboard was significantly biased towards combo/reanimator.

Extirpate, Teeg, and Canonist are all up for examination. Canonist is good vs. Storm and Enchantress and Solidarity and thats about it. Teeg is good vs. Storm and many control strategies (and Force of Will), while one of Extirpates prime functions, countering Mystical Tutor and reanimation spells, is now significantly less important, leaving it as a specialized piece of hate for Life from the Loam and Wasteland or other recursive cards. Given the general usefulness of Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog + Life from the Loam in combating GY strategies, that role may no longer be necessary.

The main options to me seem to be running additional copies of maindeck cards - primarily Orim's Chant and Wasteland, or going with a new plan entirely, or a mix of the two. The two most promising "new plans" I've come up with are:

a) Winter Orb + Blinkmoth Well. When it works, it is very close to a functional one sided Armageddon. It hits basic and non-basic lands alike, and has large amounts of synergy with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and cards like Ghostly Prison. Extremely strong vs. Blue "lotta land" decks and swarm decks like Goblins and Merfolk. Weak vs. non-creature threats, burn, low curve decks, untapped lands, and Planeswalkers. Can also be combined with a surprise Wasteland from your opponent to screw you out of mana too.

Theoretical Sideboard: 3x Krosan Grip, 1x Consuming Vapors, 1x Swords to Plowshares, 1x Bojuka Bog, 1x Blinkmoth Well, 3x Winter Orb, 3x Gaddock Teeg, 2x Ghostly Prison.

Analysis: Overwhelming vs. Aggro, extremely strong vs. big spell control, blue counter control, and Lands. Weaker vs. combo, planeswalker, stax, and graveyard based strategies.

b) Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths. Pretty much aimed squarely at control decks running Jace2 or other Walkers like Redjani and Elspeth (or Sorin if anyone ever figures out a solid shell for him). Right now Hexmage, Vindicate, and Maelstrom Pulse are about it for ways to kill 'walkers outside of combat. Given that Crop Rotation and Knight of the Reliquary are already in the deck, a singleton copy of Dark Depths just makes too much sense not to run alongside some Hexmages as it gives you access to the increasingly popular Legacy backup plan of "make a random huge monster that's hard to deal with." And given that the deck also runs Eternal Witness, Unearth, Volrath's Stronghold, and Life from the Loam, it seems like its a trick you'd be able to pull off more than once. Problems are that it doesn't bring much to the table vs. non-goblin/fish aggro or vs. combo since BB isn't a quick get with this manabase if you have to save Crop Rotation for finding Depths.

Theoretical Sideboard: 3x Krosan Grip, 1x Consuming Vapors, 1x Swords to Plowshares, 1x Bojuka Bog, 1x Dark Depths, 3x Vampire Hexmage, 3x Gaddock Teeg, 2x Orim's Chant.

Analysis: Strong vs. all control, strong vs. aggro, average vs. combo, strong vs. sorcery speed based strategies.

The other options I can think of are running some mix of cards like Gerard's Verdict/Inquisition of Kozilek/Orim's Chant/Wasteland or simply leaving things as they are and be overprepared for whatever new Storm Combo decks appear.

Curious to hear others' thoughts on this. Or even entirely different plans.

Nonex

06-22-2010, 08:57 PM

I'd like to post my version, if you let me. It's just another controllish version, but with black instead of blue and with more board control. Sorry if this type of list has already been discussed.

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Secluded Steppe

4 Eternal Witness
4 Dark Confidant

4 Mox Diamond
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Unearth
4 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
3 Astral Slide
3 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
1 Damnation

Sideboard:

1 Riftsweeper
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Withered Wretch
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate

- Mana base: nothing strange. 5 basics + Moxen elude Wasteland quite well.

- Creatures: we already know what happens with unanswered Confidants. Each one killed is one less removal spell to the core of the deck, Eternal Witness.

- Removal: Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Wrath of God and Damnation. Cards like Pernicious Deed and Maelstrom Pulse could also be included, IMHO it comes down to personal preference. I choose Vindicate because it destroys problematic lands (Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives, for example). Wrath of God and Damnation kill Progenitus (and the rest of the field, for that matter).

- Resources: Unearth and Living Wish. Unearth is great. Apart from cycling it when needed, having one in hand lets us dredge without fear: a single dredged Witness turns it into a 1-mana Regrowth. The cute trick is chaining one with every Witness in the graveyard (Unearth -> reanimate Witness 1 -> return Unearth -> reanimate Witness 2 -> return Unearth, etc.). It also reanimates any creature from the sideboard. Living Wish grabs some solutions that will be explained later.

- Engine: Astral Slide and Life from the Loam. Nothing new here. Some apparently weird creatures are chosen with Slide in mind.

- Sideboard:

Riftsweeper: I don't know anything better to recover exiled things. As soon as something more optimal is suggested, it should fall off.
Aven Riftwatcher: now competes with Lone Missionary. Perhaps flying wins, who knows. IMHO it's about personal preference again.
Harmonic Sliver: Slide makes it better than Qasali Pridemage and such. Small body compared to Indrik Stomphowler and Wickerbough Elder, but also less mana. Personal preference once more.
Withered Wretch: slower than Bojuka Bog, but also constant.
Gaddock Teeg + Ethersworn Canonist: anti-combo pack.
Karakas: against non-Progenitus legendaries. Also a decent land drop if needed.
Glacial Chasm: against Progenitus and other desperate situations. We can't rely on letting it die every turn and recurring it with Life from the Loam due to the lack of Exploration, but paying 2-6 life while we search for a real solution is viable.
Krosan Grip: -> Counterbalance.
Extirpate: my main answer to both control and combo.

I don't know if I should change something after the new B/R changes, but I'll leave it as it is and wait for the metagame to adjust itself. I hope it helps you in something.

glwiley

07-09-2010, 12:07 PM

@Morgan
Can you explain why you ditched KoR and Finks in the chant list, and why you include Gideon? I can kind of understand Sorin, though I still don't think this is his shell, but Gideon seems like it will be way to slow as a kill spell and isn't really the best beater in the world.

Also, why Teeg maindeck? Is EE that scary? EE, FoW and quick combo's kill cards are all the relevant things teeg stops, but the deck is fairly resilient to counters and chants can stop combo. Not to mention that you have to slide Teeg out to play your planeswalkers.

Can you repost the previous list?

morgan_coke

07-09-2010, 10:06 PM

Yeah, i'll fix the first post back to the old list, sorry, the new post m11/post bannings list is still completely up in the air. Teegs really iffy maindeck, but he basically came into it because I made up a list of all the potential matchups by strategy and he actually graded out as a positive against every matchup but vial decks and red aggro. I'm looking at alternatives for Finks and Knight of the Reliquary because between them, Witness, Slide, and Deed I just had way, way too much going on at the 3cc slot. It was really clogging up my play sequences and generally meant I had to wait until I hit six mana to start casting two spells/doing two things a turn, which is really just too late right now.

I ended up ditching Sorin for Liliana, way easier to cast, and the tutoring is just insanely good. Right now I'm looking at some potential two drops, whether those end up being Tarmogoyfs, Serra Avengers, Qasali Pridemages, or going back to being three drops I don't know yet. The list is pretty much in a state of flux right now and the first post is a bit off in several places, I'll try to get it updated into something useful as soon as I have good answers to provide.

One thing I have been enjoying tremendously in the sideboard lately is Preacher. Vedalken Shackles on legs is harsh times.

morgan_coke

07-09-2010, 10:06 PM

Ysunran

09-23-2010, 12:16 PM

I had tested Elspeth knight errant and she was very strong in some game with Knight , did you have a new list with goyf' and walkers ?

morgan_coke

09-29-2010, 12:59 AM

Updated the first post except for the last two sections, how to play the deck, and matchups. Those are both horrible out of date, read at your own peril.

At this point I'm firmly convinced that Slide needs to run a minimum of 2 walkers, and probably more. Given the current state of the format, you're just not going to have reliable access to your graveyard in games two and three, and walkers are a great solution to this problem, they are also easier to protect in slide than in most other decks.

Tarmogoyf is a card I've gone back and forth on a dozen times. Right this second, I'm out on him, because right now the format is well suited to dealing with big dumb creatures. And graveyard hate, especially Relics, are everywhere, making "clever" creatures like Pridemage a better deal and often bigger anyways. Seriously though, if you can't deal with not having regular access to a graveyard in games 2 and 3, this is not a good time to play the deck.

Some great Slide cards that can operate freely of the yard, maindeckable variety:

Any Planeswalker.
Qasali Pridemage.
Trygon Predator.
Akroma's Vengeance.
Lightning Rift.
Hide/Seek.
Rhox War Monk.

Ok, its not a big list, but you need to get these guys or some other similar ones into your maindeck, or you'll end up having a couple really bad post board experiences.

Also, Lightning Rift. Kills Planeswalkers. Which is getting more and more relevant. Something to keep in mind.

(nameless one)

09-29-2010, 11:01 AM

I have always loved this deck but I always find the cards to be out of reach.

Now that I have most of the cards in this set, I think I can start tinkering with this deck again. I'll probably build the G/W version as budget would still be a concern.

My question now is: why isnt Knight of the Reliquary on the G/W list?

morgan_coke

09-29-2010, 02:40 PM

KotR is missing solely due to space issues, feel free to mod or add as you like. But Elspeth is generally better. Flies and harder to kill. If you want to increase the threat density, you can cut a Crop Rotation, a Flagstone, and a Pridemage for 3x KotR.

Uncoordinated

10-03-2010, 02:57 PM

Your first, revised list ( Two Colour Slide ) has only 56 cards by my count.

Can you comment on how Intuition is working out for you, or the blue suite in general? You've mentioned in your primer before that blue doesn't really have much in the way of cycling cards, but there are some nice tutor packages in that setup you've got for Five Colour Slide. Also, how is Miscalculation? I've always loved the card, and before I got into competitive Legacy it was in almost every deck I had for casual.

Have you considered including a singleton Vendillion Clique? It's something I always wanted to try with a blue splash. It's colour intensive and seems a bit unnecessary for filtering your cards, but it's still got an undeniably nice ETB.

I would also like to take the time to mention the possibility of Academy Ruins / EE recursion in place of Firespout / Rift for Slide builds that focus more on blue splash if you are running Intuition as well. Thoughts? I am sure you've toyed with it, and it doesn't seem all that much slower than Volrath's. This is speaking more on Slide in general than on your second build, which I really really like.

morgan_coke

10-05-2010, 09:10 PM

You're right, I left off the Edge of Autumns, sorry about that. Fixed.

Intuitin is an amazing tutor in this deck. Huge fan. Best blue card.

Vendiliion Clique is something I just haven't gotten around to trying yet. Has a lot of useful abilities, and interacts well with both Slide and Karakas. Sitting in the already crowded 3cc slot is the biggest strike against it. Well, that and requiring UU. Note: Unearth makes it cost B.

Ruins/e.e. is just as good in slide as it is in everything else. Which is to say really good.

Miscalculation is mostly a pre-boarded combo card. It's great versus storm, and extremely mediocre vs. everything else. I mean, yeah, given that Legacy is a format where Daze is almost a hard counter, Miscalculation will counter a lot of stuff, but.. this deck isn't a counter deck and starts hating on you if you try to play it like one.

Temporal Spring is another blue card I've been meaning to try out but haven't gotten around to yet. I don't know if it'll be similar to Plow Under or not, but it does seem at least worth investigating. If you're leaning towards a more bant-ish build.

daugarten

03-28-2011, 06:20 AM

I love Astral Slide decks, and recently was inspired by the Naya Midrange * Big Zoo/New Horizons thread to incorporate Noble Hierarch into Astral Slide. The deck is often criticized for being too slow and for rolling over to combo decks. However, between Noble Hierarch's first turn mana accel, exalted ability, and counterspell support with blue mana, I thought it may be JUST the card this deck needs. Additionally, it allows us to play fewer mana lands to be replaced with manlands, tech lands, and cycle lands. Wasteland becomes far more valuable with 4 of these guys in the deck as well. I'm inexperienced in Legacy tournaments, but I was wondering what the community would think about this build. Somehow, it turns out much like a reverse midrange deck by putting pressure on in the early game with Noble Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage, and draws quickly into Astral slide, and planeswalkers to stabilize the damage race and steal the game. I was aiming for a fair amount of tech to keep it balanced in most fields, as well as being less dependent on the graveyard for games 2-3 (meaning no Goyf, KotR, and most likely siding out Life from the Loam and Eternal Witness), meaning their sided-in GY hate won't be the power boost for their deck they were hoping for.

Creatures:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Eternal Witness
3x Qasali Pridemage
1x Peacekeeper

Planeswalkers:
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells:
2x Crop Rotation
3x Edge of Autumn
3x Life from the Loam
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Miscalculation

Enchantments:
4x Astral Slide

Lands:
4x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
3x Tranquil Thicket
2x Secluded Steppe
2x Lonely Sandbar
2x Wasteland
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Nantuko Monastery

60 cards

Sideboard:
3x Peacekeeper
2x Krosan Grip
2x Gilded Drake
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Tormod's Crypt

The sideboard should be fairly straightforward. This Bant Astral Slide is capable of early planeswalkers, letting Qasali Pridemage swing for 7 flying on Turn 3 and onwards, as well as balancing some Astral Slide shenanigans for board control once it gets a little out-of-hand. Add a dash of utility counter magic for defense, and viola! The strength that this build has over others is that it is far less dependent on the graveyard for games 2 & 3, better combo matches, and though it lacks the massive life gain Slide is capable of, it still has plenty of tricks to withstand (and keep up with) aggro.

I'm sure you all could improve the manabase, have it mulligan less, and just flat-out make it better... but I had this idea and didn't think that it had been touched on too much (correct me if I'm wrong).

morgan_coke

04-23-2011, 11:14 PM

In light of the many cool new cards spoiled in NPH, I decided to go ahead and update the deck again. This is the starting skeleton.

Disruption
4x Mental Misstep
2x Orim's Chant
2x Wasteland

Acceleration
3x Mox Diamond (can just as easily be Noble Hierarch or BoP)
3x Edge of Autumn
3x Ancient Tomb

Recursion
4x Eternal Witness
4x Unearth
3x Life from the Loam

Removal
3x Wrath of God
3x Qasali Pridemage (can also be Deed or EE or Vindicate/Pulse, but the cat seems most maindeckable)

Cycling
4x Tranquil Thicket
4x Secluded Steppe
3x Astral Slide

Lifegain
3x Inquisitor Exarch (can be loxodons or riftwatcher or finks or whatever really, Exarch just seems most versatile/valuable)

Colored Mana
2x Plains
2x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
2x Windswept Heath
1x Verdant Catacombs

Total numbers:
25 lands
10 creatures
3 enchantments
3 artifacts
6 instants
13 sorceries

Sideboard
4x Ethersworn Canonist (generic hatebear slot, can also be teegs or leylines)
4x Obstinate Baloth (could also be renewed faith, but that lacks a lot of the utility of the baloth, and it's punch vs. zoo/tribal)
3x Surgical Extraction (generic gy hate slot, can also be ravenous trap or rapid decay or something)
2x Tormod's Crypt (another generic gy hate slot, yixlid jailer and loaming shaman are other options)
2x Krosan Grip (mostly for CB or other equally annoying stuff, could be Beast Within or EE or Deed too)

Loses badly to dredge (no gy hate md, slow clock, wrong kinds of removal), even after boarding, but has some game vs. everything else. Baloths in the board might look odd at first, but they're good vs. discard, burn, and aggro, which combine to form a pretty significant part of the meta, and can really push those matchups over the top for you. Plus they let you board in more clock/dudes for matchups where that's relevant, which stuff like Leyline of Sanctity wouldn't. Elspeth and a 26th land are the two things I would most like to add to the maindeck.

In the end the basic theory is to beat aggro with mass removal, lifegain and duders, combo with chants and counters and hatebears, and control with recursion and card advantage. Not foolproof, but a reasonably solid plan vs. all main archetypes at least, which isn't a bad place to start.

Seriously though, Mental Misstep is just huge for this deck, because even with 9 acceleration pieces, its still somewhat slow developing, and any time you can zap their first turn for no mana, that's really, really, really gamechanging huge.

Mystical_Jackass

04-24-2011, 01:27 PM

Morgan

Has anyone mentioned or tried out Imperial Recruiter, even proxy, in this list? You'd have the two best CIP creatures in the game for the mana cost and it'd give you more flexibility to tutor for different creatures... er, versatility, that's the word I'm thinking. >.>

4x Recruiter
4x Witness
1x Cannonist
1x Spirit Guide
1x Duplicant
1x Pridemage
1x Hanna, Ship's Navigator
1x Magara
1x Mulldrifter
1x Shriekmaw
1x Mirror Entity (finisher?)
1x KoTR
1x Kiki Jiki
1x
...

Just some ideas, but it'd create lots of card advantage. Are there any good creatures with cycling to fetch?

morgan_coke

04-24-2011, 02:09 PM

MJ,

You're getting into some Wirewood Herald/green dude that tutored for a six mana guy from onslaught whose name I can't remmeber territory there. That stuff just isn't fast enough for Legacy, takes up way too many slots in the deck, and leaves you with a bunch of overcosted tiny guys that aren't actually relevant.

Recruiter works in Aluren because they're a combo deck and most of the time they don't actually pay any mana for him, plus he wins the game on the spot. None of those things are benefits slide would get from him.

There are no good creatures with cycling, there are two marginal ones in Eternal Dragon and the black 3/3 cycling unearth dude. Street Wraith also sort of qualifies. Kind of.

Mystical_Jackass

04-24-2011, 06:51 PM

I agree with it slowing it down. But you're kinda comparing Treasure Mage to Trinket Mage. Recruiter works well with Slide's ability and lets you run toolbox creatures to deal with situation and works with Pridemage ^^ It was worth a shot, you know better than me. I was also wondering what you think about the new Blade Splicer creature in New Phyrexia. Dropping 3/3 Golems with first strike into play looks like a really cool ability!

morgan_coke

04-24-2011, 08:26 PM

Green Sun's Zenith is a better creature toolbox card if you want to run one than imperial recruiter. I'd lean strongly towards the Splicer's being crap, but it is two dudes for 3 mana and does have an ETB effect. So... maybe I guess.

swoop

05-02-2011, 01:11 PM

I'm thinking of rebuilding this deck, as I always liked it (WGu version mostly) and I think Blade Splicer is a very nice addition to
the card pool!

2W is cheap, 1/1+3/3 is nice, and having many golems is sexy!

Mr. Safety

05-03-2011, 01:39 PM

*cough*Fluctuator*cough*

daugarten

05-19-2011, 08:16 PM

*cough*Fluctuator*cough*

I've been playing this archetype for some time and think I can answer this one...

Fluctuator was great back when Lightning Rift was all the craze for cycling decks. However, since green came into the scene with Eternal Witness and Life from the Loam, playing red in a Slide deck was pretty much abandoned from what I've seen. Additionally, the W/G build tries to accomplish many things, as you can see from Morgan's multiple builds. The deck list is cramped enough already, meaning Slide players have to play 2-ofs and 3-ofs of cards that could easily be a full playset. Fluctuator just simply isn't as powerful as the other options and can't be squeezed into modern builds, especially when duplicates are absolutely worthless.

Fluctuator works better as a 1-of than anything else. But then you'd have to change your entire cycle suite to "Cycle 2" cards, rather than the current "Cycle W" or "Cycle G." This significantly hinders the deck, and you wont even be gaining the benefits of Fluctuator most of the time.

If you want to play Astral Slide, Lightning Rift, & Fluctuator in your casual play group, go for it. It'll function very nicely and win a good number of games. But as far as Legacy is concerned it just doesn't bring enough to the table.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now to respond to Morgan's NPH list with Mental Misstep and Inquisitor Exarch...

I like the build. It looks solid, but it doesn't appear to have gained any power from the previous lists; it just plays slightly differently. I'm wondering if playing a Slide build with Chalice of the Void is a better option now that we have Mental Misstep for further early-game disruption. The problem of course is once a Chalice is out for 1, the MM's become dead, but you'll have a better shot at stopping the Turn 1 play between the 8 cards and acceleration whether you're on the draw or not. Morgan mentions Chalice in the intro post and even comments about the deck requiring acceleration and dropping Swords and Unearths. A deck with MM and Chalice can more easily do that and include the mana accel in Morgan's NPH build posted above. I'd drop the Inquisitor Exarch for Aven Riftwatcher to take advantage of a Chalice @ 2.

morgan_coke

05-20-2011, 06:09 PM

everything daugarten says above is absolutely correct. This is what I'm running right now, has had good results in limited testing so far. tutorable teeg g1 is huge vs. combo. same with teeg, bojuka bog, and loaming shaman vs. dredge g1. Overall there are a lot of things i like about this deck. 8 pieces of acceleration, 18 cyclers (15 at 1 or 0 mana), multiple walkers and tutors, ability to abuse the gy without over-relying on it. large amounts of lifegain and ways to win outside of the combat phase. lotta good stuff going on here.

Enchantments
3x Astral Slide
2x Lightning Rift

Creatures
4x Eternal Witness
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor

Sorceries
3x Edge of Autumn
3x Unearth
2x Wrath of God
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam

Instants
4x Spark Spray

Planeswalkers
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant

Lands
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Secluded Steppe
4x Tranquil Thicket
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Plateau
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
2x Orim's Chant
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Hide/Seek
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Wrath of God

I think the sideboard gravehate should probably all be replaced by three surgical extractions when they become available, so what's there now is just kind of placeholder. There is also md gravehate in loaming shaman and bojuka bog, both of which are tutorable. I'd love to fit in a pair of orim's chants MD, but I'm not sure what to cut for them yet. probably the third LftL and the fourth spark spray make the most sense if I decide to go that route, but the second baloth is also an option, as is either redjani or elspeth. Or one of the zenith tutor targets like loaming shaman. Lotta options really.

Hide/Seek and Wog all hit prog/emrak decks, and karakas helps out too. Hide/Seek also does nice work against ANT decks if they're only running one copy of Tendrils or IGG/Ad Naus. It's also a gain six vs. burn if you take fireblasts. WoG also has good utility vs. the various Swarm + giant dudes decks that are common now.

REB is there because the meta is flooded with blue. Has limited value vs. ANT combo since it can hit BS/Ponder and slow them down, also counters bounce when they try to get teeg/canonist out of there with a chain or truth. REB is goldstar city vs. fish and high tide. Really should probably be three of them, but not sure what else to remove from the board.

Baloth hits discard, burn, zoo, goblins, etc. Solid vs. most of the field, spectacular vs. parts of it.

Canonist and chant both hit combo, and some random decks like elfs and enchantress as well. Good backups to md teegs.

In the MD, spark spray kills a large number of relevant creatures quickly and efficiently, which is very useful. It also cycles for R, which again, is useful since you've got thicket and steppe cycling for G and W respectively. The deck might look like a bit of a 4c mess, but really it's Naya rgw with a tiny splash for unearth. even the boarded black cards are freecastable.

As always, thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.

B.C.

05-20-2011, 07:46 PM

I haven't read this thread before, and didn't make it past the last couple pages, but why doesn't this deck play Mangara of Corondor? I think that's where I would start building this deck.

Kich867

05-24-2011, 12:25 AM

I haven't read this thread before, and didn't make it past the last couple pages, but why doesn't this deck play Mangara of Corondor? I think that's where I would start building this deck.

Now, am I under the impression that you would activate the ability and then slide him out and the ability resolves to the best of it's ability?

If that doesn't function like that then that card is rather useless to the deck.

Nonex

05-24-2011, 11:31 AM

The Mangara - Slide interaction is the same as Mangara - Karakas. It works, although I wouldn't put Mangara in the deck, he's basically a slower and clunkier Vindicate without Slide, and even with Slide right there he's still slow.

daugarten

05-24-2011, 01:30 PM

The reason I've never played a list with Mangara is because the 3-cmc spot is already under stiff competition. Right off the bat you've got Witness and Astral Slide, and now we'd be upping that up to a total of 12 cards. To be honest, Crop Rotation+Flagstones and Edge of Autumn don't offer much acceleration, but I haven't experimented with Ancient Tomb yet, as Morgan recently did. Using a Mox or Noble Hierarch may make it worth it... but usually you wouldn't be looking at exploiting Mangara until Turn 5. Until now I've favored creatures that come in sooner and have effects immediately (Pridemage), and I figured Mangara was already optimized in D&T... but I might have to take another look at Mangara with the added acceleration suggestions. I'm worried that the deck would be dedicating too many slots to the Mangara/Slide combo that's so easily disrupted, but that's the way of Astral Slide in Legacy... Still not quite powerful enough IMHO.

If I were to add Mangara I'd use only 2 colors, and focus on Wasteland disruption and accelerating into Mangara/Slide/Wrath with Hierarch, Moxes, and Ancient Tombs.

morgan_coke

05-24-2011, 08:44 PM

I've tried mangara in slide. It's a useful trick, but not that useful. The only way I was able to make it work was by running Aether Vial, but the problem was the deck worked ungodly well with vial, and incredibly poorly without it, or with vial at any setting besides 3. If you really feel the need to try it, I recommend going straight g/w and running noble hierarch, zenith/arbor, and mox diamond. Ancient Tomb doesn't help with a mangara build at all. Or running vial and skewing towards a DnT style shell. Hope that helps.

But yes, the biggest knock on Mangara is how ridiculously crowded the 3 slot gets. Basically, you've got witness, slide, finks, mangara, deed, vindicate, beast within, and knight of the reliquary all sitting at 3cc. And those are just the most common/playable options.

k1r4

06-02-2011, 06:51 AM

Hey guys,

i'm watchin the thread for a long time and i want to show you my Slide list.
Maybe it can be improved or is some kind of inspiration.

2 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Flagstone of Trokair
1 Wasteland
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plain
1 Taiga

4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secluded Steppe
3 Forgotten Cave

4 Mox Diamond

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Astral Slide
3 Edge of Autumn
3 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Lightning Rift
2 Life from the Loam

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2 Eternal Witness
2 Terravore
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage

What do you say? Turn 1 Mox+2 Mana happens very often but i also got many games were i go Topdeck after turn 3 ...

It would be great if i get 2-3 Cataclysm in, but the space isnt there,or ?

k1r4

Nonex

06-06-2011, 08:56 PM

After peeking at my metagame in a tournamet held yesterday, I can say that things are pretty fucked up. There's some Reanimator, some Dredge, some Landstill, plenty of Caw Go, NO RUG, Bant variations, and perhaps a little Zoo and Spiral Tide. In other words, Mental Misstep is everywhere and there's blue control in various forms lurking at every corner.

I'm somehow convinced that Slide is one of the few correct choices for such a metagame, so I decided to forget every conceived idea I had from my experience with the deck and read this entire thread from start to end. I've come to the conclusion that a Tomb-Chalice version is the way to go and built a list from scratch. Any suggestion before I start testing it?

Mana Sources
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs

Cycling Cards
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Secluded Steppe
3 Rapid Decay
2 Expunge
2 Radiant's Judgment

Engine and Disruption
3 Astral Slide
3 Life from the Loam
3 Beast Within
4 Chalice of the Void

Creatures
4 Eternal Witness
1 Tilling Treefolk
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

k1r4

06-08-2011, 02:23 PM

I would exchange Chalice with Trinisphere. Execpt of LftL you are pretty save then.

Colucas

06-10-2011, 02:13 PM

May someone help me with my deck? Haven't played magic for years, but decided to get back into the game and and update my old astral slide deck with new cards. I honestly don't know what is playing now on legacy, so that i ask you for help constructing the deck.

As now, it features the following set:

3x Secluded Steppe
3x Tranquil Thicked
3x Slippery Karst
3x Blasted Landscape
5x Plains
4x Forest
1x Windswept Heath
4x Temple Garden

3x Eternal Witness
3x Elvish Pioneer
3x Eternal Dragon
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2x Exalted Angel

4x Astral Slide
3x Fluctuator
3x Wrath of God
3x Life from the Loam
3x Angel Song
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Decree of Justice
1x Hunting Grounds
1x Eladamri's Call
2x Living Wish

Only a bit in doubt about the Elvish Pioneers, should I put 3 Sakura-Tribe Elder instead?

Didn't think much about sideboard, but at least, one other Decree of Justice, Duplicant, Mangara of Corondor, Primal Command, Porphyry Nodes, Wing Shards..

morgan_coke

06-25-2011, 02:26 PM

Colucas:

Welcome to the source. Glad you're interested in the deck. The following isn't meant as an attack or an insult. Just trying to be helpful.

Fluctuator isn't good anymore, the lands that cost 2 to cycle aren't good, elvish pioneer should be something like noble hierarch or birds of paradise, akroma and exalted angels are all too slow and outclassed now. green sun's zenith is better than both eladamri's call and living wish. Pulse of the Fields should be Kitchen Finks or Obsinate Baloth or Lone Missionary. Angel Song is sort of ok, but would be better as Radiant's Judgment, Gilded Light, or Renewed Faith. Decree of Justice is very, very slow.

Made some minor updates to the first post. This is what I'm experimenting with now, and it takes the deck is a fairly new direction.

Bant Slide

Creatures
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Eternal Witness
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Rafiq of the Many

Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor

Enchantments
3x Astral Slide

Sorceries
2x Life from the Loam
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Instants
3x Radiant's Judgment
3x Miscalculation
4x Mental Misstep

Lands
2x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
2x Savannah
2x Tropical Island
4x Tranquil Thicket
2x Secluded Steppe
2x Lonely Sandbar

Sideboard
2x Scryb Ranger
3x Angel's Grace
2x Rhox War Monk
3x Rebuild
1x Angus Mackenzie
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Trygon Predator
1x Loaming Shaman

Nightbird

06-28-2011, 12:36 AM

Have to say, I liked the previous build better. The one with Chant and Crop Rotation/Flagstones. I guess because it was cheaper to build and I'm a netdecker lol. This new one does look cool though, I especially like having miscalculation. I just wish duals were cheaper. Oh well.

At any rate, thank you very much for what you are doing, Morgan. I appreciate your work. I am a big fan of the Cycling decktype and I greatly appreciate the work you do.

JCLe

06-30-2011, 10:40 AM

getting a few nifty tools in the new set :

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120724&d=1309406543

Sundial of the Infinite (2)
Artifact
T(1): End the turn. Activate this ability only during your turn.

Neat tricks to do with this, as exiling a target and cracking this so it never comes back.

Deck is still probably too slow but it could be fun.

And of course (been mentionned before) :

Stonehorn Dignitary (3)W
Creature - Rhino Soldier
When Stonehorn Dignitary enters the battlefield, target player skips his or her next combat phase.

Nonex

06-30-2011, 02:43 PM

Stonehorn Dignitary is at least a 3-of in the sideboard imo. It answers pretty much anything related to the combat phase all by itself.

Sundial looks like danger of cool things. The Slide engine takes time to assemble and it does nothing until then. It's not that Slide has that many problems just because opposing creatures eventually come back anyway. Vengeful Pharaoh seems more interesting to me.

daugarten

06-30-2011, 02:56 PM

The Sundial looks interesting for sure. The Dignitary maybe. With Morgan's experimental build I think that makes both of those cards really interesting (and by the way, I really like his new build) because I think you could easily drop the Radiant's Judgment for the Sundial.

Morgan, how is the build working out for you? What do you think of Jace? When I've played with Jace I haven't actually been too impressed with the card advantage he offers since Astral Slide/Witness seems to take care of that just fine. I've always preferred Elspeth myself for more aggro. When Slide suddenly creates a clock I've found that that can really take someone off guard, especially if they've been focusing on aggro to beat us before we can drop the Slide on the table. Also, with the full set of Zenith's does the deck need four Witnesses? I think I'd actually take out a Witness for a full set of Slides instead. Anyways, I'd love to hear how the deck runs!

k1r4

06-30-2011, 08:08 PM

Nightbird

06-30-2011, 08:52 PM

I think Sundial will be great. It gives the ability to handle aggro-based decks with just 1 slide on the board and is an additional protection to our few beater ( response to Swords for example ) and the opponents cant cast spells in our EoT-Phase. I like it and i will test it

How the hell does Sundial handle aggro decks when it can only be activated on your turn? Jesus, people. Think before you post.

Nonex

06-30-2011, 09:08 PM

He talks about sliding out opposing creatures during your turn and activating Sundial before they come back.

Nightbird

07-01-2011, 12:05 AM

He talks about sliding out opposing creatures during your turn and activating Sundial before they come back.

Which means you either let them sit through the opponent's turn or slid them out like normal anyways, and if you do it on your turn it's not really going to matter because you could just do it during your end step so they won't come back until the opponent's End Step and you use that card slot on something actually useful.

daugarten

07-01-2011, 03:53 AM

Which means you either let them sit through the opponent's turn or slid them out like normal anyways, and if you do it on your turn it's not really going to matter because you could just do it during your end step so they won't come back until the opponent's End Step and you use that card slot on something actually useful.

Would you rather play a StP that reads as it normally does, or one that is a Sorcery with a clause that says, "...and draw a card?" It's not a horrible call, and it (potentially) replaces a slot in the deck that is already reserved for creature removal, and is reusable.

morgan_coke

07-01-2011, 05:18 PM

On Jace, the UU was a hassle so he went away in favor of Venser, who wasn't ideal either, so he went away and those slots are currently held by a Scryb Ranger and a Maze of Ith. I also changed up the manabase a little cutting down to one each of tropical/savannah and added nantuko monastery.

I like elspeth, she's a good card. There isn't any downside to running her aside from the WW and the slots she takes up, so if you like her better than another card in this deck, knock yourself out. Rafiq is crazy. almost always 2 turns from when he enters the game that you're attacking for lethal. Overall I'm a huge fan of this build. It's fast, versatile and powerful. It has issues with speed red burn and small utility dorks in general. Slide > batterskull token though.

As far as Sundial goes, I'd be more interested in it if it did something besides combo with slide, which it doesn't. And yeah, I like stonehorn in the sideboard as well, though I'd like him even more if he cost 2GW instead.

The main things this deck feels like it's missing are some more removal and a few more cyclers. Engineered Explosives seems like a candidate for the removal, not sure on the cycling, Gilded Light and Renewed Faith are probably the top contenders, though I'd really like some manaless cycling action, so Street Wraith and Edge of Autumn will get a look too.

Nonex

07-22-2011, 09:04 PM

Shameless bump.

I know it's a little like going back to the roots for the thread, but the Tomb version is new to me. Changed something here and there, added things, tested new cards, etc. This is how it looks like for now:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Secluded Steppe

4 Eternal Witness
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Krosan Tusker

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Life from the Loam
3 Astral Slide
4 Expunge
3 Radiant's Judgment
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 All Is Dust

Sideboard:

1 Obstinate Baloth
3 Stonehorn Dignitary
2 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate
3 Sundial of the Infinite
2 Tsunami

Null Rod and Consuming Vapors were sideboard cards as a 3-of and 2-of, respectively. They left just to make room for the new kids on the block, but they are great cards, excellent against what they are supposed to crush (Affinity, Thopters, controllish decks with recurring Explosives, Shackles and other things in addition to Relics; also GW Zenith, Bant, etc.). Like everyone who did before me, I recommend giving them a try. About my previous version posted above in this page:

- I tried Beast Within. I find it great, especially with Tombs, but only when the deck has at least 7 Walls to stop the tokens (Wall = indestructible/recurring creature, or anything with 4+ toughness). When I dropped them I was running only the Baloths, so they sucked.

- Tilling Treefolk was good, but I still don't miss it. I think it's a matter of running 2 and some Unearth to backup them.

- Rapid Decay is useless in my metagame. I cut them for more cycling removal and didn't look back.

Current version:

- Baloth and Elspeth are literally awesome. It's thanks to them that I can beat counterless decks despite their Relics, most times I don't even have to bring Grips against them. They also work together to win extremely fast by dealing 7 flying damage each turn, which is a capability I've always wanted in this deck.

- I like Krosan Tusker a lot. Well, given that it's instant uncounterable card advantage and Wasteland-proof mana fixing all in one, I don't see why I shouldn't. Sometimes I even get a 6/5 and potential flying 9/8, so it has its slots guaranteed for now.

- I was sceptic with All Is Dust, but I finally tried it. I still can't believe such a sweeper is that good, especially in Legacy. Against some decks it's slow, but I guess it's to be expected.

- Tsunami was initially Choke, but people usually bring Grips against me, and it becomes dust anyway when I have to devastate the battlefield. Tsunami wins the same games as Choke if not more, really.

- Stonehorn Dignitary doesn't seem that bad. It has a little problem, you need Slide online to do something meaningful, unlike Consuming Vapors. However, it improves the fast aggro matchup (especially Goblins) by buying the turn you need to set up something, be it Elspeth, Baloth, Witness, Slide, or kill something, or even All Is Dust. If you still need time, you at least get a 1/4. Still needs lots of testing.

- Sundial of the Infinite looks like garbage. It definitely and absolutely needs Slide to work, and against most of the format is pretty useless if your opponent has an idea of how to play around it. The good news is that it destroys Hive Mind all by itself (the main reason I bought and run them) and helps a little against Goblins and other aggro decks where they flood the table in a few turns or you'd rather not trigger Slide on their creatures. Still not convinced, but I want to think it has more uses than Angel's Grace.

Nonex

10-08-2011, 12:49 PM

Shameless necro'ing double post back from page 7.

With Innistrad released and some time to exhaustively examine the cards, I was wondering if morgan_coke is still around here. Are you still in the mood to update this deck? To my limited understanding, the only cards that caught my attention are Fiend Hunter and Liliana of the Veil. That, and the ban of Mental Misstep, which allows Unearth to make a strong comeback. What do you think?

morgan_coke

10-08-2011, 09:02 PM

Nonex,

I've largely abandoned this deck. The lack of stacking damage is fairly backbreaking vs. tribal strategies, and if you tune to beat them despite the hit the deck took from M10 rules changes, you end up sucking a lot vs. control and especially combo. Also, Progenitus and Show and Tell decks eat your lunch.

If the deck is to make a comeback, I'd recommend looking at a build with GSZ, BoP, and possibly Mox Diamond as well in order to consistently power out turn2 Liliana's.

That's a very good Tomb/Mox build you've got. Looks strong, effective, and versatile. One of the biggest reasons I went away from that style of build is the inconsistency 4x Tomb and 4x Mox creates in your opening hand and mulligans. Also, Chalice prevents you from playing Unearth, which is just a stupidly strong card.

Good luck with the deck though.

Nonex

10-08-2011, 10:35 PM

It's sad to read that, but well, we still have twelve pages of useful information. I'll be glad to hear news from you here, should you ever change your mind.

morgan_coke

10-09-2011, 06:22 PM

It's really just a reflection of the changes that have occurred to legacy over the last few years. Creatures need 3 power to trade with aggro anymore. The amount and quality of graveyard hate has increased significantly in the face of Dredge-based strategies. Non-Blue decks simply no longer have the ability to meaningfully interact with combo decks barring devotion of significant resources to that task. And blinking creatures has diminished radically in value. All of that combines to make Slide a far less than viable deck choice than it used to be.

I wish that wasn't the case, but I've played the deck enough to know that it is. The lack of non blue colors to interact with the stack, and the efficacy of stack based interaction in a highly diverse format just continues to hammer home the idea that top level decks must run large amounts of blue in order to be competitive at a very high level.

UFO

11-19-2011, 08:49 AM

Heh, I actually made an account just to ask a question in this thread. That's how much I like Astral Slide! :)

I understand that your thinking that the deck isn't good enough to play these days. I was wondering though, if you had no choice but to play it in a tournament tomorrow what your selection of cards would be.

If I don't get an answer, I'll probably just test with this list you posted earlier in the thread:

Enchantments
3x Astral Slide
2x Lightning Rift

Creatures
4x Eternal Witness
2x Obstinate Baloth
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor

Sorceries
3x Edge of Autumn
3x Unearth
2x Wrath of God
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Life from the Loam

Instants
4x Spark Spray

Planeswalkers
1x Ajani Vengeant
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant

Lands
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Secluded Steppe
4x Tranquil Thicket
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Mountain
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Plateau
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills

I would make this small change though.

-2 Obstinate Baloth
+2 Inquisitor Exarch

Is this list a good starting point for someone learning the deck?

I just got into magic after a long hiatus, so any advice I can get on the deck would be appreciated! Thanks!!

igri_is_a_bk

11-19-2011, 05:58 PM

I couldn't resist brewing a list as Slide was my first competitive deck when it was Extended legal. It's not very good for legacy since a lot of your opponent's creatures have etb abilities that are strong. But for nostalgia's sake, here's my take;

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Secluded Steppe
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wall of Blossoms

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Edge of Autumn
3 Astral Slide
2 Wrath of God
3 Life from the Loam
3 Mox Diamond

There are some cool interactions in there, but it's really tight on space. A lot of stuff packed into 60 cards. The one Gaddock Teeg makes sense even though it shuts off WoG and GSZ, because combo is a terrible matchup.

morgan_coke

12-28-2011, 01:44 PM

Been messing around online with Slide again in my rare spare time, and I hit on a list that's fun, fast and mostly effective. You're essentially playing a Control Rock variant, so just accept that you're in the solid Tier 2 zone. On the upside, you can beat the hell out of anything that wants to remotely interact with you. On the downside, you'll lose to stuff that doesn't. The biggest change to this deck vs. previous iterations is the massive, massive amounts of acceleration included. The deck just essentially says "screw turns 1-3, I didn't want to play those anyways".

Acceleration Package (13)
2x Ancient Tomb
3x Mox Diamond
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Dryad Arbor

Removal Package (10)
3x Astral Slide
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Dust Bowl
3x Liliana of the Veil

Recursion Package (10)
3x Eternal Witness
3x Life from the Loam
4x Unearth

Beats Package (3)
2x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Obstinate Baloth

Hate Package (4)
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Kor Haven/Maze of Ith
1x Karakas

Lands (20)
4x Tranquil Thicket
4x Secluded Steppe
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
2x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Ethersworn Canonist/Thorn of Amethyst (3sphere is also an option)
2x Silence/Orim's Chant
3x Nihil Spellbomb/Tormod's Crypt
3x Engineered Explosives/Ratchet Bomb
4x Cabal Therapy/Leyline of Sanctity/hate for whatever deck gives you trouble

Birds of Paradise made the cut over Noble Hierarchs because T2 Liliana is devastating and BoP makes that a lot more likely. Also, flying makes for useful chump/slide blocking of Bad Things. There are total 27 lands in the deck. 1-2 Elspeth, Knight Errant would be a really nice addition, if you want to add them I'd recommend looking at the 4th bird and 27th land as your first cut options. Maelstrom Pulse is one of the keys to this deck as it really just solves a lot of the random problem cards that tend to show up in Legacy decks. Scryb Ranger, Thorn of Amethyst, and one-of useful creatures like Scavenging Ooze and Loaming Shaman are also sideboard candidates. Obstinate Baloth made it over Kitchen Finks partly because it's essentially just as easy to cast and partly because it provides a lot more life in a hurry in conjunction with Slide.

But this decks main and biggest advantage is jumping straight over the mana curve to having 4-5 mana available from turn 2 onward, then backing that up with recursion and incremental advantage. For an example of a not extraordinary T1 hand, play a land and mox diamond discarding dryad arbor, play bop and unearth the arbor. You now have 5-6 mana available next turn and you've put exactly one card in the graveyard. Or how about land, zenith for arbor, next turn play an ancient tomb. Again, you've got 4+ mana available on turn 2. There are a lot of combinations on those plays, but basically, you're going to have dramatically more mana than your opponent will very early in the game.

The exceptionally low number of cyclers (12) has so far proven to be less of an obstacle than I thought it would due to more sources of card and tempo advantage throughout the rest of the deck.

UFO: the reason you want green creatures is for green sun's zenith to find them, all white creatures can't be tutored up.

Igri: yeah, looks like a solid enough list, nothing wrong with it as far as I can see, although I admit I've really fallen out of love with Edge of Autumn, but I don't think it's gotten any weaker from an objective point of view, I just decided it doesn't fit my playstyle anymore.

arcboundravager2

02-14-2012, 11:00 PM

KntrellCL

03-04-2013, 01:05 AM

Ive been developing this deck list. I played astral for a pretty long time when it was T2 and extended.

Lands [27]

4 Windswept Heath
1 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Secluded Steppe
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Karakas
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Artifacts [4]

4 Mox Diamond

Engine[18]

4 Astral Slide
1 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam
4 Renewed Faith
1 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Plow Under
1 Seismic Assault

Creatures [11]

1 Acidic Slime
1 Flametonge Kavu
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Thragtusk
3 Eternal Witness
4 Bloodbraid Elf

I havent tried this yet, but I really hope it would work. Bloodbraid Elf should be good to find Astral, loam or other useful cards. What do you think?

nudon

03-04-2013, 03:52 AM

KntrellCL

03-04-2013, 03:56 AM

I think i would try to beat combo just with SB. Combo is just the weakest match for Astral, so changing some creatures it wont help that much.

CRich3

03-06-2013, 09:40 AM

Why not play Bant with an E-Tutor package? At least try the tutor, it finds slide and can find silver bullets if needed.

I have been doing a lot of research trying to build a UG deck and I think that slide is somehow playable in legacy. I'm still working on some ideas. Mainly tryin to get around beating combo. But I think this can be an auto win vs decks requiring creatures to win. Unless its a swarm deck like tribal decks.