[Deck] The Mountains win again in Legacy?

[Joe_C]

Here is a rough list for discussion, I like the way this looks and it can hose a ton of decks/ strategies early:

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Swamp
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
3 Chrome Mox

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Unmask
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Terminate
4 Jagged Poppet
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Withered Wretch
3 Avatar of Discord
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Blood Moon

SB(under construction)
3 Perish
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar


Chalice is such a beast, and I can drop it for 1 consistently enough. Im looking to put this through some real testing over the next week or so. I will get into results later in the week.I have played against landstill so far and won, and u/b painter and won as well.

Thoughts?

[kicks_422]

I tried doing something like this for the most recent CANGD. What I found out was that TMWA works well in Vintage because the strategies of each deck in the format are relatively similar to each other, compared to the diversity of Legacy. Also, without tutoring power, more often than not you have the wrong answer for the problem on the board.

That said, I still think the deck has potential. Good luck.

[TheLion]

as far as i know, TMWA is only a hate deck against artifact based strategies. (and moxen of course).
And it plays Genju of the Spires (thats why it is called TMWA ?).

[overseer1234]

Nice list, but I've tried somthing similar but I started with this list:
TMWA: The Mountains Win Again/The Mindsencor Wins Again
4x Æther Vial

4x Dark Confidant
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain

4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mountain
2x Plains
3x Plateau
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills

3x Duress
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Smother
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Rack and Ruin
2x Disenchant

This list pack's one hell of a yard hate pakage, but obviously this is still tuned for vintage. Mox monkey and mindsencor don't seem to bee to good in legacy.... And the sideboard needs a total makeover. Also bloodfire dwarf could be realy good here against ETW tokens.

But I also think this type of deck has great potential.

Greets and good luck :)

[kicks_422]

as far as i know, TMWA is only a hate deck against artifact based strategies. (and moxen of course).
And it plays Genju of the Spires (thats why it is called TMWA ?).

It has greatly evolved since then.

[raharu]

Considering that your hand is going to be empty most of the time/ you want it to be, why not play Rakdos Augermage? Also, on that note, I don't like Chalice because it creates the possibility that you could have dead cards in hand.

[Joe_C]

Considering that your hand is going to be empty most of the time/ you want it to be, why not play Rakdos Augermage? Also, on that note, I don't like Chalice because it creates the possibility that you could have dead cards in hand.

Well, I only run 4 1cc spells as of now. thats definitely tolerable in the scheme of things. getting chalice at 1 then 2 locks up a ton of matches and I can magus/ avatar them to death quickly enough

Im making changes in the list. Adding hymn to tourach instead of thoughtsieze and making it only 3 so I can fit one more avatar. In ideal conditions I can unmask/chalice/drop avatar by like turn 4. Ive done turn 1 avatar a few times, but that is risky business

[Peter_Rotten]

Can someone post a typical Vintage list?

[overseer1234]

TMWA: The Mountains Win Again/The Mindsencor Wins Again
4x Æther Vial

4x Dark Confidant
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain

4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mountain
2x Plains
3x Plateau
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills

3x Duress
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Smother
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Rack and Ruin
2x Disenchant


This decklist made it to the Top8 in a vintage tournament. I had specifically chosen this decklist because its unpowered and therefor it's easier to modify for legacy.

[Joe_C]

I would be looking to keep this b/r. Im testing a few ideas Ill get back to posting when I have time and some results

[TheGodOfHouse]

Nice list, but I've tried somthing similar but I started with this list:
TMWA: The Mountains Win Again/The Mindsencor Wins Again
4x Æther Vial

4x Dark Confidant
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain

4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Mountain
2x Plains
3x Plateau
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills

3x Duress
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Smother
2x Pyroblast
2x Pyrokinesis
1x Rack and Ruin
2x Disenchant

This list pack's one hell of a yard hate pakage, but obviously this is still tuned for vintage. Mox monkey and mindsencor don't seem to bee to good in legacy.... And the sideboard needs a total makeover. Also bloodfire dwarf could be realy good here against ETW tokens.

But I also think this type of deck has great potential.

Greets and good luck :)

Interesting deck. I don't think you have to overhaul it that much for legacy, however I'd definetly replace the Gorilla Shamans since we are not plagued with crazyimbamoxenpower. ;) I do also think that the acceleration from SSG isn't required in this kind of deck (at least in Legacy).

Aven Mindcensor isn't that bad in Legacy either I'd say. It shuts down quite a good deal of cards such as Fetchies, Survival, Intuition, Extirpate, Trinket Mage, Enlightened Tutor and I'm pretty sure that there is more relevant items.
I'll probably test the deck with the following MD changes:

- 3 Gorilla Shaman
- 3 Simian Spirit Guide
- 3 Duress

+ 3 Cabal Therapy
+ 3 Umezawa's Jitte
+ 3 Vindicate

[moOnsteak]

Hallo, I'll enter this thread as a Vintage player who has some experience of TMWA since I have played this deck for years. .
First thing to remember, TMWA is some kind of hate deck, it's a typical build to use spells that create an anti barrier for metagames common, and especially TMWA is a non-blue deck. .
As example, early version of TMWA contain so many artifact destroyer, as an answer for Stax which was very dominating those time, genju of the spires are there as an answer against oath of druids, also tier one build in the past. .
Later, TMWA also bring graveyard-hate spells (tormod's crypt, extirpate), blue-hate spells (REB n pyroblast), creatures-hate spells (pyroclasm, sword to plowshares) , artifact and/or enchantment hate-spells (goblin vandal, hide/seek), combo-hate spells (orim's chant, aven mindcensor, thorn of amethyst), etc to its maindeck. .
Result? Very powerful hate-deck, but lose poorly to some junkies decks (even some standard type 2 deck)

TMWA has evolved, from mono-red hate deck into so many variations depends on meta, but there's one stop point : Magus of The Moon is automatically maindeck from the 1st time he has been released. .
Mono-red, Hide/Seek aggro-control, R/B hellbent, R/W man-prison, and then Painter Win The Mountain, also some kind of R/G Beatz. .
Any variations, different play-style and weakness, hated but needed, and always fun to play. .

[ACME_Myst]

Not to be a bitch, but let me try to get this straight.

TMWA is a hate deck, obviously. For a hate deck to be effective in any given metagame, it needs a target to hate upon which is heavily present in your target metagame. You cannot simply go "This is a Vintage TMWA list, how do we port this?".

Not that I think the concept itself cannot be effective in Legacy. However, I do think that the right place to start for such a deck would be a thorough analysis of the metagame, common factors shared between decks, which of those factors can be succesfully hated upon, and the analysis that if you can succesfully hate on those factors, do the decks you're targetting in fact lose such a large portion of their strategy that they will be unable to win faster than you.

Once you have put down all those things on paper, you can start looking for cards that fit three criteria:

1) They hate upon one, or preferably more, of these 'weaknesses' in the metagame.
2) They fit your strategy, in the sense that they both disrupt and put down a clock.
3) They are not dead most of the time. True, a 1/1 with a non-relevant effect can still beat down, but it probably isn't going to get there. This might sound like it overlaps heavily with point 1 and 2, but it can also mean that the card can be used as food for a different card (think Unmask, Wild Mongrel etc).

Once you have a list of strategies that can be hated upon and a list of cards that effectively do this, it's time to look at your own metagame. What, and in what amount, do you expect your target strategies to show up in your next tournament?

Only when you've assembled all that data can you begin to succesfully construct a final decklist for your next tournament. A more generalized list can ofcourse also be created, and one of the results you could get there would probably heavily resemble Dragon Stompy.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

[Edit] Shit. You're too fast

[Joe_C]

this is testing somewhat interestingly:

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Ancient Tomb
5 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox

4 Magu$ of the Moon( he is pure money in alot of matchups)
4 Jagged poppet(when he hits for 3/discard 3 people cry)
3 yixlid jailer(maindecked aggro loam/ichorid hate on a 2/1 aint too bad)
4 Mesmeric Fiend(odd, but you will see the point)
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the void
4 simian spirit guide
4 Thoughtseize (my only 1cc spell)
4 withered wretch
3 Avatar of discord

[overseer1234]

I think you lack removal... how about terminate?

[Hummingbird TG]

No Jitte, even with so many creatures? Fiend does look severely underwhelming without Jitte...

[Iare]

I think anger belongs in here somewhere, but with only avatar of discord to discard him to it might be difficult. Maybe add smallpox or hidden horror? This might be a horrible idea all around but haste is neat and speeds up the clock which is never bad. Just my 2 cents.

[overseer1234]

I think anger belongs in here somewhere, but with only avatar of discord to discard him to it might be difficult. Maybe add smallpox or hidden horror? This might be a horrible idea all around but haste is neat and speeds up the clock which is never bad. Just my 2 cents.

Gathan raiders could also be used for that purpose.

[Phantom]

I think if you're going to design a hate deck for Legacy, you really need to evaluate the meta and what can be attacked and how.

The manabase is the first thing to be looked at:

Non basics - Practically no deck in Legacy runs all basics, so this is a good first front.

Blood Moon should always be looked at first as it renders duals and non basics often useless and protects itself from removal through its ability. This card just keeps getting better with the rise of 4 and 5 color control decks.
Magus of the Moon is more versatile than his enchantment counterpart, but also easier to remove.
Back to Basics is sort of the best alternative to Blood Moon as it effects all basics in one 3cc enchantment. Sadly it lets them tap them once after it comes into play.
Ruination is probably too expensive for its effect.
Wasteland and other 1 for 1 effects are good, but probably lacking the sweeping hate a deck like this is looking for.

Fetches - are almost as prevalent as duals but hate is generally less effective since less fetches will actually see play than duals. Often players will play 0 or 1 fetch during a game, and while few decks run no non basics, a decent amount run no fetches.
Stifle is all the rage these days and with good reason. It is a 1 for 1 effect like wasteland, but with an added tempo boost since they never actually get their land.
Ankh and Zo Zo - Damage punishment for fetching.
Root Maze - Tempo punishment for fetching.
Blood Moon and Magus hit fetches too. This is why I consider them the best hate cards in the format.
Aven Mindcensor is decent hate against fetches (often too slow and they can still hit the top 4) but is also good hate against tutor while being an evasive beater.

Casting Cost - Legacy decks have to be quick in order to deal with the format, so even control decks curves are low.
Chalice of the Void is the most obvious and is very effective.
Trinisphere, and to a lesser extent Thorn and Sphere of Resistance hate on low CC as well.
Counterbalance, combined with library viewing and manipulation is very effective I hear.
Nether Void is the most extreme, but also most effective example.

Graveyards - Pretty much every top deck in Legacy uses the graveyard in one way or another, even if it's just to pump Goyf or to throw Anger in the yard. Maindeck yard hate that is useful in other matchups can be very effective.
Yixlid Jailer - Easy to cast and very effective against certain decks. Does nothing against Tarmogoyf sadly.
Withered Wretch - Harder to cast and expensive to maintain, but actually removes cards from the game.
Jotun Grunt - Is more of a beater first and yard hate second, but can clearly shuffle back some cards they might want.


That's all I have time for at work.

[Rush]

One quick question: Why no Pit Dragons?

[Nihil Credo]

It's worth noting that you have to have good reasons to turn to symmetrical hate pieces (as opposed to asymmetrical ones like Counterbalance or Aven Mindcensor). Dragon Stompy, for example, is a hyperaggressive red deck, so running Moon effects is not a big sacrifice for it, and giving up life and cards to get fast mana pays off by getting bigger beaters.

If you don't keep that in mind, you end up running Jotun Grunt to hose Tarmogoyf where you should be running Tarmogoyf yourself; or winning a few games through Back to Basics or Chalice lock while losing many more by denying yourself the power of cheap cards in multiple colours (see: MUC vs. Landstill).

[Rush]

Nihil, who were you writing that post to?

[Nihil Credo]

Just a follow-up to Phantom's solid list.