[Discussion] Is Mogg Fanatic still Fantastic?

[xsockmonkeyx]

Please note that this thread starts off talking about Heap Doll but morphs into a discussion about Mogg Fanatic. I think that the Fanatic discussion is more interesting and relevant to today's meta, so I have changed the title of the thread. My apologies.

- PR

Mogg Fanatic provides a fairly good investment for 1 Red Mana. For that measly mana you get: a tiny trickle of damage to an open opponent , the chance to chumpblock for 2 damage or take out an attacking x/2 creature, kill an x/1 creature (Dark Confidant, Lackey) and the ever present threat of 1 additional damage to anything at instant speed. There is also the threat of removing Bridge from Below from the game, at instant speed and I guess you can strap equipment on him too, whatever. It represents a good cheap investment to the board, with the off chance that you can remove/nullify a card from your opponent.

Heap Doll also provides a good investment, this time at 1 colorless. It is somewhat easier to cast and presents a lot of the same features as fanatic, only with a different twist. It has a potential trickle of damage and chump blocking, but instead of potential damage it has the potential to instead nullify a card that depends on the graveyard (Squee, Genesis, Ichorid, Bridge from Below, Wastelock, Life from the Loam, Intuition piles, the list is really long), and the ever present threat of that removal represents. Heap Doll means that your opponent will need to get at least 1 more card into their graveyard to pull off whatever play they want to make from the grave. In the case of Bridge from Below, Heap Doll can represent up to 2 more cards they need in the gravecards, if you target another card in the grave and then trigger Bridge. And how about this play? Blocking a Tarmogoyf he represents 2 chump blocking damage to the Goyf, IF you can zap one of the card types in the graveyard with one swoop because there's only 1 of them. This would obviously work best targeting with Enchantments and Artifacts as they are more rare, and the occasional Planeswalker and Tribal, which are rarer still. Finally, a Heap Holl in play means Threshold cards now requires 8 cards in the grave to work to get their bonuses (potentially). That's not huge, but its there.

Like Mogg Fanatic all of this is all done at instant speed, so you gain some control over the stack and the way players execute their strategy, similar to Tormod's Crypt, albeit not as powerful.

Granted he is not a Goblin, and has none of that tribal synergy, but he could perhaps find a home in Affinity, or aggro strategies that have trouble with recursion, and busted stuff like IGG into Tendrils, or Intuition into whatever evil scheme your opponant may be up to. Seems like a pretty good deal for 1 colorless mana, anyway.

So, what do you guys think?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Mogg Fanatic sucks balls. The only deck that it's worth playing in is Goblins, where the tribal synergy is as relevant as the card's text box. Even so, Fanatic's inclusion in Goblins is debateable. My brother and I have actually completely cut Fanatic from many of our latest Goblins lists, and we haven't really missed it in any non-Ichorid matchups.

It's hard to compare Fanatic to Heap Doll, though, since the two cards do entirely different things. Heap Doll, instead, has to challenge cards like Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void, which are much more powerful at disrupting graveyard-based strategies. Heap Doll's only clear advantage is that it can serve as a vanilla 1/1 for :1:, which means it's never totally dead. However, it's not maindeck material, either.

[Pinder]

Mogg Fanatic sucks balls. The only deck that it's worth playing in is Goblins, where the tribal synergy is as relevant as the card's text box. Even so, Fanatic's inclusion in Goblins is debateable. My brother and I have actually completely cut Fanatic from many of our latest Goblins lists, and we haven't really missed it in any non-Ichorid matchups.


:eek:...what you say? As far as red one-drops go, Mogg Fanatic is clearly the best. You could argue the importance of red one-drops, but give Fanatic some credit. The card is fantastic. If I recall correctly, he was run/is run in Dryad/Goyf sligh.

[Clark Kant]

Mogg Fantastic is by no means an average card.

It's a steller card that just happens to be among the many steller creatures no longer useful in the post-Goyf metagames. A metagame where goblin lackey and to a much larger extent, all the 2 toughness creatures that used to be playable in legacy no longer are.

Simply put, Fanatic has no where near the number of targets it used to have.

I really can't think of any reason why a deck would opt to play Heap Doll in place of either Tormod's Crypt or Leyline in the sideboard. And I can't foresee too many metas where Heap Doll is relevent often enough to justify MD inclusion.

To put it better, here is my personal list of top 5 1cc 1/1s in legacy...

1. Nimble Mongoose
2. Goblin Lackey
3. Disciple of the Vault
4. Weathered Wayfarer (fetching Factories, Wastelands, Maze of Iths and Tabernacles at will is tech)
5. Mother of Runes

Note that neither Mogg Fanatic nor Heap Doll make the list. Note that not even Grim Lavamancer cracks the list in the post Goyf environment. Being able to do 2 damage to creature is a lot less useful these days.

[Obfuscate Freely]

:eek:...what you say? As far as red one-drops go, Mogg Fanatic is clearly the best. You could argue the importance of red one-drops, but give Fanatic some credit. The card is fantastic. If I recall correctly, he was run/is run in Dryad/Goyf sligh.
Relative to the power level of the format, Mogg Fanatic is extremely weak, both as an offensive tool and as a defensive tool. Comparing it to other red one-drops seems pretty irrelevant (red has the worst creatures in the color pie, anyway), but it isn't even the best of those. Lackey is.

Fanatic may see play in Goyf Sligh, but I don't see it being an optimal choice for the deck. Then again, I don't see Goyf Sligh being a competitive deck, either.

[Clark Kant]

On the contrary, after green (when you factor in elves) and arguably white, red has the best and most number of playable one drops in the game.

[Wallace]

:eek:...what you say? As far as red one-drops go, Mogg Fanatic is clearly the best. You could argue the importance of red one-drops, but give Fanatic some credit. The card is fantastic. If I recall correctly, he was run/is run in Dryad/Goyf sligh.

I think Grim Lavamancer might have something to say about that. But yeah Mogg fanatic is fine, he is still played in some Goyf Sligh builds and in bad burn decks. I could see an argument for heap doll in some decks but not as a replacement for Mogg Fantastic...

[Pinder]

I think Grim Lavamancer might have something to say about that.

I would run Fanatic over Lavamancer in ~90% of cases where I need a red 1-drop. Lavamancer is slow and dies a lot. Fanatic is fast and dies a lot, but at least you get something out of him when he does.

edit - Of course, I haven't seen a lot of decks that run either in a while, so Alix might be onto something. Maybe it's just nostalgia that has everyone still loving Fanatic.

[Wallace]

I would run Fanatic over Lavamancer in ~90% of cases where I need a red 1-drop. Lavamancer is slow and dies a lot. Fanatic is fast and dies a lot, but at least you get something out of him when he does.

edit - Of course, I haven't seen a lot of decks that run either in a while, so Alix might be onto something. Maybe it's just nostalgia that has everyone still loving Fanatic.


Yeah Lavamancer was/is MVP of my Extended RDW deck, I also ran Fanatic but he was really there to give me a main deck was to disrupt Dredge. I think the way the meta is right now red based, straight aggro decks are a bad choice in legacy.

[kicks_422]

Fanatic is a unique card, not a great one. All the years I spent playing (the now defunct) Dryad Sligh, I always thought of Fanatic as a card which I run just because there's just nothing else which could do everything that it does.

Also, I see it being cut in Goblins lists just because everything else in the deck has a higher power level than Fanatic.

I still think it deserves the Mogg Fantastic moniker though.

[Nihil Credo]

It's hard to compare Fanatic to Heap Doll, though, since the two cards do entirely different things. Heap Doll, instead, has to challenge cards like Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void, which are much more powerful at disrupting graveyard-based strategies. Heap Doll's only clear advantage is that it can serve as a vanilla 1/1 for :1:, which means it's never totally dead. However, it's not maindeck material, either.

Agreed. Besides, let's look at the competition:

Red - Mogg Fanatic. Almost as nuts against Ichorid, and against Survival killing Birds is a much stronger play than waiting for their engine to start and hitting either Squee or Genesis.

Green - Loaming Shaman

White - Either Samurai of the Pale Curtain or Jotun Grunt

Black - Yixlid Jailer, Offalsnout, Faerie Macabre Withered Wretch... all of them are unexciting in the main, but all of them are also probably better than Heap Doll. Offalsnout in particular looks much like a Doll on crack.

That leaves only Blue and colourless (i.e. Affinity). Blue has Propaganda to beat on Ichorid and work decently against other stuff too (Survival as long as you keep Rofellos off the table). Affinity, to my knowledge, has little problems with Ichorid, especially at removing Bridges.

So yeah, Heap Doll doesn't seem to be providing a service anyone is particularly interested in.

[Illissius]

Hmm. I've occasionally floated the idea of dropping Fanatics from Goblins because it seemed to do a lot less than every other card in the deck, but this is the first time I'm aware of that anyone has thought it was a good idea.

[Anusien]

The problem with dropping Fanatic in Goblins is that it lets all kinds of shitty decks that can't beat turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 Fanatic back into the format. Then again in an age of Tarmogoyf, that may no longer be relevant. Fanatic is one of the greatest ways for the deck to screw up combat math and certainly wrecked a lot of strategies I was working on (Karn in Stax, for one).

My knee-jerk reaction is that Fanatic is still awesome, but the deck has sort of hit a brick wall in terms of innovation, so maybe it's time to try.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Alix is right. Magus of the Scroll and Grim Lavamancer would be better outside of non-combo; Aether Vial or Chrome Mox would often be even better. A creature from another color, better yet. I guess we're not counting Kird Ape. The problem is that 1/1s are only creatures in the most technical sense, and Mogg Fanatic is only occasionally a 2/2 in an extreme function. To be honest, in the current metagame, Bloodfire Dwarf is probably better since it can counter an entire EtW chain, DoJ activation or even kill an Argothian Enchantress.

[AnwarA101]

The problem is that 1/1s are only creatures in the most technical sense, and Mogg Fanatic is only occasionally a 2/2 in an extreme function.

You are absolutely right. Mogg Fanatic is more a removal spell than a creature. Would anyone really play Mons Goblin Raiders? The recent rise of Ichorid is just another inclusion for Mogg Fanatic in Goblins, but this only highlights how bad the matchup can be for Goblins if it didn't play Mogg Fanatic. The Goblin mirror use to be the other reason to play the card, but that doesn't seem to matter as much anymore.

[Peter_Rotten]

Interesting points - I'm almost convinced. Fanatic seems to be played in maybe 3 decks - only one of which is generally relevant: Goblins, Goyf-Sligh, and Burn. So let's just look at Goblins.

Against which of the most played critters do we like to see a Fanatic?


Lackey - surely. But as Anwar mentioned, the Goblin mirror is becoming less important and less popular.
Dark Confidant - he seems more popular now-a-days. Some Thresh, AggoLoam, and Survival decks run him.
Ichorid decks - amazing there
Goyf mirrors? (This may be important for GoyfSligh, but - I hate to say it - so what?)
2 ETW/DoJ tokens - lame
BoP/mana elves - they are relatively uncommon in today's "ideal" meta
Random annoying guys that you could see at any given Legacy tourney: Winged Sliver, Mother of Runes, Ball Lightning (I know that I'm really stretching here), Welder, Spore Frog,
So, looking at the current DtBs, we have Fanatic as great against one deck (Ichorid), good against another (Goblins), good against Confidant builds of Thresh and Loam, and pretty good against Confidant builds of Survival (considering the BoP targets). That may be good enough for now, but I'm not so sure he is still amazing.

[Jak]

He would be better if there was no Tarmogoyf.

[Phantom]

This is actually one of the most interesting conversations I've seen here lately. Challenging convention is how any endeavor advances, and Fanatic has long been held as untouchable, at least in Goblins.

I always felt that his utility was his strength. Having 12 one drops assured that Goblins could apply pressure while attacking your mana base turn 2. He does kill less creatures outright these days, but is still a solid pull off a Ringleader (unlike, say Lackey) and can help Goblins stall an inactive Jitte.

These days, however, Goblins may not be looking for utility. They may be looking for answers, and raw power. Answers means cuts, and I have to say I'd be inclined to look at him in a Ichoroid light meta.

[xsockmonkeyx]

<--- monkey is sad. :(

[FoolofaTook]

Stalling Jitte, even by a turn or two, can often be the difference between Goblins beating a deck and getting caught in a stalemate once a sweeper has gone off.

The ability to block a Jitte wielding 2/2, when the Jitte is newly cast - as it usually is when it has any relevance against Goblins, and both kill the carrier and also have no counters go on the Jitte is a profound swing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you're playing it just for Jitte, why not just run 1-2 Tin Street? That seems much better against Jitte.

[FoolofaTook]

Not all Goblins decks splash for green. Tin Street Hooligan off of a vial doesn't kill a Jitte. Those are just two potential reasons.

Between the Bridge From Below removal, Dark Confidant removal, occasional 1 toughness combo critter removal and Jitte stalling Mogg Fanatic seems kind of useful as a utility tool for Goblins. It's not great any more (mainly because Goyf has caused all sorts of 2/2 utility beaters to go out of favor) but it's hard to find solutions likely to be in Goblins that do many of the things it does.

If just for the use against Ichorid it's interesting. Ichorid has begun to make Goblins cry on a regular basis and Goblins probably needs more tech against it MD and SB as opposed to less.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hearth Charm offers flexibility. But it might be better for Goblins to run things that actually win games in that slot, like Tin Street or Goblin Sharpshooter or Goblin Goon.

[Captain_Morgan]

Mogg Fantastic is by no means an average card.

It's a steller card that just happens to be among the many steller creatures no longer useful in the post-Goyf metagames. A metagame where goblin lackey and to a much larger extent, all the 2 toughness creatures that used to be playable in legacy no longer are.

Simply put, Fanatic has no where near the number of targets it used to have.

I really can't think of any reason why a deck would opt to play Heap Doll in place of either Tormod's Crypt or Leyline in the sideboard. And I can't foresee too many metas where Heap Doll is relevent often enough to justify MD inclusion.

To put it better, here is my personal list of top 5 1cc 1/1s in legacy...

1. Nimble Mongoose
2. Goblin Lackey
3. Disciple of the Vault
4. Weathered Wayfarer (fetching Factories, Wastelands, Maze of Iths and Tabernacles at will is tech)
5. Mother of Runes

Note that neither Mogg Fanatic nor Heap Doll make the list. Note that not even Grim Lavamancer cracks the list in the post Goyf environment. Being able to do 2 damage to creature is a lot less useful these days.

Norin the Wary makes Jackle Pup cry.

[frogboy]

The problem is that 1/1s are only creatures in the most technical sense, and Mogg Fanatic is only occasionally a 2/2 in an extreme function.

This.

Fanatic is garbage against decks that don't have guys, and Seal of Lava Dart is not terribly impressive against decks that do have guys. Lavamancer demands an actual removal spell, and Kird Ape is an actual body. Fanatic has uses and is flexible enough to play if you really need the one drop, but he's usually the worst card in any deck he's in.


Lavamancer is slow and dies a lot.

The reason he dies a lot is because he's pretty absurd in mountain mirrors if you ever get to activate him.

[dahcmai]

Fanatic is a great creature no doubt about it, though he has obviously lost some of his original power to newer cards making him obsolete. The problem is there just hasn't been a much better replacement for the cost. If you need a certain one drop use out of a card that does something specific like graveyard hate, I guess he may be the first to go, but until then, he fills his role nicely as is. there's just not much of anything else out there.

I do have a feeling that Figure of Destiny might be his new replacement. This guy is seriously decent in just about everything I've been trying him in for one spots. He's a heck of a beater.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The reason he dies a lot is because he's pretty absurd in mountain mirrors if you ever get to activate him.


I skipped this earlier, but yes. If your one mana 1/1 draws removal spells, you know it's powerful. By this argument Mogg Fanatic would be more powerful than Goblin Lackey, since Lackey almost always gets killed; but that's because the opponent has to deal with him. Fanatic just gets ignored because he doesn't do anything a good 80% of the time.

Fanatic's a victim of nostalgic hype. R&D has been hailing him as one of the very greatest creatures ever printed for years. But guess what else was up there with him? Morphling and Masticore. Guess how often those guys see play in Legacy. It's a brave new world.

[FoolofaTook]

I skipped this earlier, but yes. If your one mana 1/1 draws removal spells, you know it's powerful. By this argument Mogg Fanatic would be more powerful than Goblin Lackey, since Lackey almost always gets killed; but that's because the opponent has to deal with him. Fanatic just gets ignored because he doesn't do anything a good 80% of the time.

Fanatic's a victim of nostalgic hype. R&D has been hailing him as one of the very greatest creatures ever printed for years. But guess what else was up there with him? Morphling and Masticore. Guess how often those guys see play in Legacy. It's a brave new world.

If you pull just one creature out of the picture (Goyf) then Fanatic becomes a really good option again instead of just a decent one. Killing Werebear before he hits Threshold was one of the other things Fanatic was good for.

[xsockmonkeyx]

If you suspected that your opponent had Fanatic, it would be quite foolish to play Werebear before you have threshold. Just sayin'.

[frogboy]

Fanatic is actually okay against Goyf, because it lets your Goyf kill your opponent's one in combat. In that context, it's only better than Lava Dart because you don't have to keep up a red.

[FoolofaTook]

If you suspected that your opponent had Fanatic, it would be quite foolish to play Werebear before you have threshold. Just sayin'.

I didn't play Threshold in the era of Goblin dominance. Would it have been possible to avoid putting Werebear out there if he was what you had available in the first few turns? I really don't know the answer to this one.

[Jak]

If you suspected that your opponent had Fanatic, it would be quite foolish to play Werebear before you have threshold. Just sayin'.

That is another reason why Goblins used to beat Thresh. I am not trying to bring Goyf up to get banned, but when someone asks a question of why a creature isn't seeing play, the answer is usually Goyf.

[etrigan]

Goyf has made Scornful Egotist all but unplayable in today's meta.

Fuck Tarmogoyf.

[kirdape3]

I personally play Mogg Fanatic in every base-red deck that I build. I do not anticipate that changing, and here's why:

1. Tagging Birds and Elves is still particularly important in the matchups where those cards exist. People still play Survival of the Fittest in the areas that I am liable to play Legacy.

2. In something like Goyf Sligh, what of your options are better? You already have (or should) Kird Ape and Grim Lavamancer, and you still are going to need another one-drop. Jackal Pup and Goblin Cadets get blocked by everyone, and to get another playable creature you're either running more green cards or a third color.

3. In Goblins, any of the other options that you would play in that slot are going to cost a great deal more mana or turns to ramp a Vial. I can safely say, having tested Sharpshooter, Tinkerer, Goon, and even old school stuff like Clickslither and Skirk Prospector (actually what you'd be playing in the Fanatic slot if you replaced it), that Fanatic is better than all of them. Those other cards might have more power, but they don't bother showing up in a relevant window. Fanatic shows up, gets his one or two in, shoots the face or tags a guy for one more, and that's all you can expect. It's still better than a Goon that shows up on turn 4 and might not even be able to attack, or a Prospector that just accelerates for R once.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I didn't play Threshold in the era of Goblin dominance. Would it have been possible to avoid putting Werebear out there if he was what you had available in the first few turns? I really don't know the answer to this one.

Dropping an unthreshed Bear in the face of possible Fanatic/Bolt was foolhardy. It's much better to avoid playing him, than play him and have him get killed PDQ. Also, just because a card is available to play that doesn't mean you should play it. That's the Magic equivalent of woodpushing.

[FoolofaTook]

Dropping an unthreshed Bear in the face of possible Fanatic/Bolt was foolhardy. It's much better to avoid playing him, than play him and have him get killed PDQ. Also, just because a card is available to play that doesn't mean you should play it. That's the Magic equivalent of woodpushing.

The question was whether or not Threshold could survive against Goblins if it dropped no creatures in the first few turns because the creature in hand was Werebear?

I just have a hard time seeing Threshold surviving the Goblin rush while it cantrips it's way to Threshold without a blocker out to at least slow things down a bit.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Well, you could still throw a Mongoose in front of a Lackey or giant Piledriver. Fanatic aint touching that.

If you are wondering about how the specifics play out look for those Bardo articles call something like "Tales of the Mongoose and the Lackey." They were pretty in depth analysis of that specific MU, and I don't think the matchup was as bad as you're thinking.

[FoolofaTook]

Well, you could still throw a Mongoose in front of a Lackey or giant Piledriver. Fanatic aint touching that.

If you are wondering about how the specifics play out look for those Bardo articles call something like "Tales of the Mongoose and the Lackey." They were pretty in depth analysis of that specific MU, and I don't think the matchup was as bad as you're thinking.

Piledriver is x/2, right? So Fanatic blocks and kills it?

[xsockmonkeyx]

No, I said chumping with a Mongoose. But yeah Fanatic takes out attacking Piledriver. Fanatic was one of the better cards in the mirror IIRC.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It seems like in nine out of ten of these scenarios, Goblin Sledder would just be better and offer some more powerful uses, such as protecting a Lackey from a Mongoose. Also,


Those other cards might have more power, but they don't bother showing up in a relevant window.

I'm not going to insult your intelligence by pretending you really believe what you just said*.









*Props to Bill Buckley

[bigbear102]

Well seeing is two goyf sligh/burn decks won both the main event and the 16 person single elim event, goblins may not be the only relevant deck to run Fanatic.

Personally, Fanatic was one of the better cards in my deck. It obviously fills a small role, but that role is very important. I killed several BoP's and Rofello's in Survival matchups, some confidants in different matchups, and even made a goyf block go in my favor.

He gave me a chance in the Ichorid matchup, albeit in the game that I lost.

I believe that Fanatic is still a very good choice for the format. Sure, Lava Dart could do the same thing, but you have to have R open and it costs you a land to deal 2 damage.

Fanatic held off Trinket Mages and factories several times against dreadstill and painter for me.

I think that red is being underestimated in the format right now, and because of that so is Mogg Fanatic. Sure, he would be better in a format without Goyf, but so would about 100 other cards.

In regards to Figure of Destiny replacing Mogg Fanatic, I wouldn't count on it. Figure is pretty good, but I still think Mogg has the upper hand, being immune to removal along with all of the other utility roles he plays.

[Pinder]

being immune to removal along with all of the other utility roles he plays.

I wouldn't really say immune to removal. I mean, if someone is going to remove him, he either dies or you sac him in response. But no matter how it goes he's dead, so the removal did it's job. The only way I can see that it would have some sort of effect is if the removal did something else too and you sacced Fanatic to make it fizzle, like to prevent them from gaining 3 off Lightning Helix or something.

[kirdape3]

Bill Buckley, while a very smart man and the founder of modern conservatism, got a lot of things wrong (including how in order to defeat totalitarianism we would have to become totalitarian except for a couple of enduring folkways - turns out, we had a better shot at doing it by just being fucking rich and winning that way).

Yes, I absolutely believe what I said. Otherwise, I wouldn't have said it. Sharpshooter was either glacial or dead on sight or irrelevant, Goon half the time showed up and never did anything at all, and any other option I tried wasn't as valuable or fast enough.

[Happy Gilmore]

Mogg Fanatic is extremely efficient at what it does. In both casting cost and ability it is an excelent tool. However, Ratios of P/T in correlation with the abilities on creatures are increasing making x/1 and x/2 less common. Mogg Fanatic has a lot less to do in this format.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In regards to Figure of Destiny replacing Mogg Fanatic, I wouldn't count on it. Figure is pretty good, but I still think Mogg has the upper hand, being immune to removal along with all of the other utility roles he plays.

I'm not seeing here where Bloodfire Dwarf wouldn't have been better. Certainly it seems better against Ichorid, not to mention anything running EtW.


@kirdape: So you're suggesting, in seriousness, that it's statistically better to run 4x Mogg Fanatic than 4x something else because you're more likely to draw the Fanatic, when? In a relevant window? Since I guess that's turn 1 for Fanatic, you're suggesting that the alternative 4x has a statistically smaller chance of being in your opening hand?


being immune to removal along with all of the other utility roles he plays.

He's immune to removal about the same way that Zimbabwe is immune to free trade agreements. Hint: No one caring enough to bother =/= immunity.

[bigbear102]

Bloodfire Dwarf doesn't end up with you coming out on top of Goyf battles. It ends up with both Goyfs dead.

And again, Bloodfire Dwarf requires you to have mana open, something a deck running 18-19 lands doesn't always have.

ETW may be one reason Dwarf is better. Against Ichorid I would rather have Fanatic because again, it doesn't take an activation cost, and at most Dwarf will kill Ichorids, and Fanatic can always take 1-2 out of the picture on its own.

I'll concede the immune to removal bit as pretty worthless, but the point is that Fanatic will always do something. And from my experiences, it is usually worth its slot. Not having to waste 2-3 damage spells on X/1 creatures makes it easier to kill the opponent.

[MattH]

@kirdape: So you're suggesting, in seriousness, that it's statistically better to run 4x Mogg Fanatic than 4x something else because you're more likely to draw the Fanatic, when? In a relevant window? Since I guess that's turn 1 for Fanatic, you're suggesting that the alternative 4x has a statistically smaller chance of being in your opening hand?
I can't tell if you're being willfully obtuse or if it just comes naturally, but he obviously meant 'showing up' as in 'getting to the in-play zone' , not just in hand. (Usually having better things to do with your time/vial@3/three mana [assuming Sharpshooter], whereas Fanatic can often come down off a spare mountain or vial@1 that wasn't going to get used this turn anyway.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Then he'd be doing better to address the arguments already raised about power level and utility, instead of wrapping his dismissal in terms that non-Fanatic cards are dead because they won't hit the playzone (an argument which, incidentally, obviously can't apply to Sledder or Prospector, or in non-Goblins, Magus, Lavamancer or Bloodfire.

bigbear: I think the point is more along the lines of, "Is a card that's arguably worse than Bloodfire Dwarf playable in Legacy?" I don't think I've seen the Dwarf cracking too many top 8's. Surely Fanatic has uses, but are they prevalent enough to justify running, again, a 1/1? There are resources besides mana at stake; do you want to expend an entire card on a creature that's only half a Grizzly Bear? I know it's a joke card, but I want people to consider Little Girl from Unhinged. Would you spend half a mana and a full card on a 0.5/0.5? It's clear that it's less than half as effective as just a 1/1 instead, since you're expending more cards on it, yes? Likewise, a 1/1 is significantly less useful than a 2/2. And a 2/2 less so than a 4/5, which is why Tarmogoyf breaks the power curve so greatly...

[kirdape3]

The reason that I say within a relevant window is literally this: Mogg Fanatic is a one drop that can have a relevant effect on the game (by say, killing off a Birds of Paradise or Llanowar Elves or Dark Confidant). It can and does get played on turn 1 a good amount of time. If that slot is Goblin Goon, he's not going to see play until turn 3 at the earliest - where decks such as Survival or Dark Confidant decks have already begun to take over the game - or Ichorid has you dead already.

It isn't just about raw power level, it's about the idea that Mogg Fanatic does something very useful in this format still against matchups that I expect to face. Sure, there might be better situational creatures, but Mogg Fanatic is better in more situations than those other situational creatures.

As an aside, I actually board him out fewer times than I do Goblin Lackey in Goblins. In the cases where Fanatic isn't good enough, chances are your entire deck isn't good enough and the case is moot.

[Bourgeoise]

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but don't forget that Goblin Lackey hoses Chubstill.

[Amon Amarth]

While Mogg Fanatic may be less powerful than other options in Red decks, he is by far the most versatile.

Efficiently dealing with Birds of Paradise, Elves, Dark Confidant, Ichorid, Bridge from Below should not be underestimated. In many metas, mine especially, there are a multitude of jank decks where Fanatic shines.

I tested Goblins without him and immediately put him back in. Nothing comes close to his utility. I can't recall the number of games I won because I sacked one or two Fanatics to seal the deal. He also has good synergy with Warren Weirding; ridding the field of chaff so Weirding can do its thing.

[bigbear102]

bigbear: I think the point is more along the lines of, "Is a card that's arguably worse than Bloodfire Dwarf playable in Legacy?" I don't think I've seen the Dwarf cracking too many top 8's. Surely Fanatic has uses, but are they prevalent enough to justify running, again, a 1/1? There are resources besides mana at stake; do you want to expend an entire card on a creature that's only half a Grizzly Bear? I know it's a joke card, but I want people to consider Little Girl from Unhinged. Would you spend half a mana and a full card on a 0.5/0.5? It's clear that it's less than half as effective as just a 1/1 instead, since you're expending more cards on it, yes? Likewise, a 1/1 is significantly less useful than a 2/2. And a 2/2 less so than a 4/5, which is why Tarmogoyf breaks the power curve so greatly...

I believe you are the only one who has actually argued in favor of Bloodfire Dwarf being better than Fanatic. Sure, situationally Bloodfire Dwarf might be better, but that doesn't mean it is. You said that Bloodfire Dwarf doesn't crack Top 8's, Fanatic does. I think that makes the argument moot right there.

In a meta with lots of Survival and lots of Ichorid (Cuse), Fanatic is a very potent tempo card, along with being able to deal damage. Of course Tarmogoyf is "more better" than Grizzly Bears than Mogg Fanatic is better than Little Girl. He is just so much bigger that he is much better. But Mogg Fanatic is still a lot better than Little Girl for the investment, being able to kill creatures twice as large, and also being able to off X/1's at will.

He is worth the slot in red decks mainly due to the tempo advantage that he can give you. In the matchups that he is good in, he is very good. The matchups that he is not good in, red decks historically have an advantage, see Landstill. Thresh is about the only matchup he's dead in, and that is only of you don't run your own Goyfs.

[raharu]

But Fanatic is worse than Bloodfire Dwarf. That's the problem.

[Nihil Credo]

But Fanatic is worse than Bloodfire Dwarf. That's the problem.
Please, let's put away this silly argument. Bloodfire Dwarf clearly outperforms Mogg Fanatic against Empty the Warrens tokens and un-Threshed Mongeese, and that's it. Even against Ichorid it's only better when there are 3+ Ichorids in play, or if you have two of them to blow them both as a Rough; both abilities being of questionable worth when you have to spend an extra mana for them against the blazingly fast Ichorid kills (waiting a turn may very well mean facing off four extra Zombies).

Bloodfire Dwarf doesn't win Tarmogoyf fights, doesn't go to the dome, is terrible at killing powerful turn 1 creatures like Lackey or Birds or Ritualed out Confidants and Shades or Mother of Runes or Figure of Destiny, and even later it demands an extra :r: for the job which is a serious drawback for tempo-obsessed Red decks.

It might or might not be time to retire Mogg Fanatic in favour of Figure of Destiny (which I'm liking so far in both W and R shells, but need to test more), but either way the Dwarf should not be compared to either.

[MTG Guru]

Do you guys realize that you can run 8 virtual Mogg Fanatics in a deck? There's a P3K card called Fire Bowman. Just throwing the idea out there, though it might not be that relevant. Goyf Sligh could probably run it and Ichorid would have another enemy, I guess, even being at sorcery speed.

[freakish777]

I have to agree with bigbear and kirdape. Fanatic is still a relevant card in today's metagame. It's still good. It's just not Fantastic anymore.

[bigbear102]

In regards to the Figure of Destiny v. Fanatic, it really depends on the role that you are trying to fill. I know that in playing the deck last week, I sided out Figure a lot more than Fanatic. In a white deck I think figure would be amazing, letting you just drop 1 threat and make them deal with it. In a red deck you want your mana available to either burn a trail for your critters or just burn your opponent. A white deck is more suited to pumping your figure a lot faster. I know I only got him to 4/4 twice over the course of the tournament, and one of those times was irrelevant because I had the game won anyway.

[FoolofaTook]

Slightly off topic, but the thing that makes FoD so good in my opinion is that it drops turn 1 and starts beating against about 90% of the decks that aren't going to drop a critter turn 1. Turn 2 it's very easy to make another 1 drop alongside it and also morph it to a 2/2. That gives you effectively the normal weenie curve but reversed because you actually get to beat with the 2/2 on turn two. You also get to preserve a card in your hand because you aren't pushing hard and potentially over-extending by putting the third creature out there.

Turn 3 he becomes a 4/4 and if they didn't have a way to get rid of him before you've effectively got an overpowering early rush. Yes, a Goyf can block him half the time and kill him without dying but in the standoff you've pinned that Goyf as well because he sure isn't charging in after the 1,2,3 we're talking about here. No, a Nimble Mongoose doesn't help the opponent much in the scenario because 4/4 just eats Mongeese.

The other thing I really like about FoD is he gives aggro decks the option to ignore the 2cc slot almost entirely, using FoD effectively as the 2cc replacement alongside 8 or 12 other one drops, without losing significantly in the power curve. This makes things like Engineered Exposives and Chalice of the Void more effective because they can push wholeheartedly towards an activation at two (the most effective setting against almost anything but combo) without disturbing their own game plan at all. A one-sided sweeper at two is a game ender in many cases in the current meta.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Do you guys realize that you can run 8 virtual Mogg Fanatics in a deck? There's a P3K card called Fire Bowman. Just throwing the idea out there, though it might not be that relevant. Goyf Sligh could probably run it and Ichorid would have another enemy, I guess, even being at sorcery speed.

There's also Goblin Firestarter from Portal II, if you should desire one that counts as a goblin. Those cards are really crappy in comparison though. Removing the instant speed sacrifice nerfs a lot of Fanatic's utility.

Ill throw another angle at this window of relevance idea. Its kind of obvious, but whatever. Cards that are good during the first few turns of a game are inherently more useful than cards that come online later because a game of magic will always have a first turn (ignore Pact Hulk), will most likely have a second turn, probably a third turn, etc. However, in this game there is no guarantee that the game will even last that long. The most played turn in magic is turn 1, and over your life you will spend a higher percentage of the time in turn one than any other turn. Thereby, cards that come online at the beginning of the game will always have more relevance in your magic life than late game finishers like Gigapede, Goblin Goon, etc. This theory is full of holes Im sure, and ignores a lot of strategy and deck building, but there's probably something in there that rings true.

[bigbear102]

@Foolofa: I agree that Figure is really good at what he does, but normally he will be best in a white deck. Red decks that pack burn can't reliably pump him to a 4/4 and fulfill their game plan. I think he will see play in both, but will be the better creature in white decks, at least for legacy.

[FoolofaTook]

@Foolofa: I agree that Figure is really good at what he does, but normally he will be best in a white deck. Red decks that pack burn can't reliably pump him to a 4/4 and fulfill their game plan. I think he will see play in both, but will be the better creature in white decks, at least for legacy.

That's very possible. He certainly makes RW more interesting and also fits in white decks splashing red for Bood Moon effects.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Please, let's put away this silly argument. Bloodfire Dwarf clearly outperforms Mogg Fanatic against Empty the Warrens tokens and un-Threshed Mongeese, and that's it.

Ah! Argothian Enchantress. And let's not forget Daru Spiritualist and/or Cephalid Breakfast in general.


Even against Ichorid it's only better when there are 3+ Ichorids in play, or if you have two of them to blow them both as a Rough; both abilities being of questionable worth when you have to spend an extra mana for them against the blazingly fast Ichorid kills (waiting a turn may very well mean facing off four extra Zombies).

Yeah, I've goldfished Ichorid a lot lately, and I find the second and third turn kills to be a lot less common than people talk about.


Bloodfire Dwarf doesn't win Tarmogoyf fights, doesn't go to the dome, is terrible at killing powerful turn 1 creatures like Lackey or Birds or Ritualed out Confidants and Shades or Mother of Runes or Figure of Destiny, and even later it demands an extra :r: for the job which is a serious drawback for tempo-obsessed Red decks.

I note that Bloodfire Dwarf is much better against Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant when Mom is active.


It might or might not be time to retire Mogg Fanatic in favour of Figure of Destiny (which I'm liking so far in both W and R shells, but need to test more), but either way the Dwarf should not be compared to either.

You know, I think the Dwarf is getting short shrift. I've convinced myself.

[bigbear102]

Against Ichorid, they have to have at least 3 Ichorids in play for Bloodfire Dwarf to be more effective. Also, the relevancy of turn 2-3 kills is not even a consideration. With 8 fetches and 18-19 land, 2 of which being Barbarian Ring, I don't plan on having more than 2-4 land in play at any point in the game, let alone the first 2-3 turns. Your argument for early game kills is void, because most decks playing Mogg Fanatic just don't play lots of land.

Argothian Enchantress is played by 2-3 people per tournament, and in my testing against Lonelybaritone burn should enchantress if there are a good number of PoPs and Pyrostatic Pillars between main and board.

I don't believe that Breakfast or any deck with Spiritualist has seen play in the recent past, due to stronger decks with similar strategies. Yes, life.dec will come back for a month at some point, it always does, and then it always gets put away again shortly.

I personally have not seen a Mom in tournaments lately, especially with Bob's in the same deck. As far as that goes, unless my opponent has manipulation in play (top) or is playing a thresh variant with 8 cantrips, I let bob sit there so I get free damage out of him (this is a very situational call, one that requires knowledge of your opponent's deck and the matchup). As for Mom, I guess you just have to be smart and play around her. So you don't get a 2for1 like you would with Dwarf, you also don't have to play Bloodfire Dwarf. I would take that as a more than even trade.

Also, Bloodfire Dwarf does not hit the opponent. Fanatic guarantees to get in there for 1. With spells ranging from 2-4 damage, sometimes it doesn't come down to an even 0, so having that extra damage helps. I remember at least 1 game at Hadley where saccing fanatic dealt the final point of damage. Bloodfire Dwarf would have done nothing there.

[Ewokslayer]

Did you guys seriously just have a debate between Bloodfire Dwarf and Mogg Fanatic?

@everyone that isn't IBA.
You should all watch War Games.
The computer at the ends gets it right.
The only way to win is not to play.
It applies to Thermonuclear War as much as it does to debating IBA.

[Nihil Credo]

@Bigbear: I'm moderately confident that IBA wasn't being completely serious in his reply.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm being serious to the extent that anyone should be serious arguing for either. Fanatic is used largely because of deckbuilding inertia; people are used to him being the prime candidate in his CC and color. Honestly, I'd much rather have Grim Lavamancer, and then slightly below that Magus of the Scroll or Figure of Destiny, in any deck that could run either. These are cards that know that the actual base number in Legacy (and Magic) is 2, not 1. It's why people play Tendrils and not Grapeshot.

@Ewokslayer: It's too late. I already win.

[Ewokslayer]

@Ewokslayer: It's too late. I already win.

I know, I was just pointing it out for the future.

Though I would say Magus is kinda crappy. I find he costs too much to activate considering killing a 1/1 is so easy compared to an artifact.