[ALA] Previews

[Poesjuh]

Well, in that case it sucks now ^^

[XSivPSI]

Where is everyone getting the spoiler info?

[rufus]

Where is everyone getting the spoiler info?

There's http://www.mtgsalvation.com/ WoTC has an official spoiler page somewhere, and I'm sure there's other resources out there.

[Nihil Credo]

Here (http://mtgsalvation.com/shards-of-alara-spoiler.html#2890).

In the "take note" category, we got an updated, gold, artifact Mesmeric Fiend:

Vectis Silencers* WB
Artifact Creature - Human Wizard
When Vectis Silencers comes into play, target opponent reveals his or her hand and you choose a nonland card from it. Remove that card from the game.
When Vectis Silencers leaves play, return the removed card to its owner's hand.
2/2

[Alfred]

The fact that that is 2/2 makes it much better than Fiend. The problem with Fiend was that it just wasn't a threat. This is substantially better, even with the trickier manacost and it being more fragile.

The Esper is just brimming with solid utility creatures.

[Brehn]

Mesmeric Fiend even sucks as a 2/2.

About Skill Borrower:

1) EOT Worldly Tutor for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
2) Tap Skill Borrower targetting itself (it is nonlegendary after all)
3) Tap the token targetting itself, rinse, repeat
4) Rule 313.2 states that the tokens will stay in play until the next End of Turn step
5) Untap, Draw, Swing for a decent amount.

[Mirrislegend]

Mesmeric Fiend even sucks as a 2/2.

About Skill Borrower:

1) EOT Worldly Tutor for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
2) Tap Skill Borrower targetting itself (it is nonlegendary after all)
3) Tap the token targetting itself, rinse, repeat
4) Rule 313.2 states that the tokens will stay in play until the next End of Turn step
5) Untap, Draw, Swing for a decent amount.

Holy crap I love it. But you honestly think that the Silencers isn't going to rock?

[Apex]

What happens if Skill Borrower copies Mangara? Would Skill Borrower remove itself from the game? Or would it try and remove "Mangara" and then fail (because it doesn't target it, nor is it named Mangara), but remove target creature, because the target is still valid?

[Brehn]

Given the reminder text of Quicksilver Elemental (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/47.html), I think it's safe to say it'll remove itself from the game.

[Alfred]

Mesmeric Fiends itself was good. It had a home in the last extended format in a deck that used it's name. A better version of that seems like it could make a serious constructed splash. Going from a 1/1 to a 2/2 increases it's damage potential immensely. Being an artifact, while making it more fragile, also gives it more potential applications as well. Affinity has already used cards like Meddling Mage in the past.

While Tarmogoyf certainly dampens it's impact in this format, I'm sure that if Tarmogoyf were to suddenly dissapear from this format (hint hint Wizards), or when looking at it in terms of something like Extended, Silencers is a sure bet.

[Aggro_zombies]

While Tarmogoyf certainly dampens it's impact in this format, I'm sure that if Tarmogoyf were to suddenly dissapear from this format (hint hint Wizards), or when looking at it in terms of something like Extended, Silencers is a sure bet.
Surely you're not suggesting that Wizards ban Tarmogoyf, are you?

Affinity used Meddling Mage, yes, but that was because Mage acted as a Mesmiric Fiends for all copies of a given card. Meddling Mage 2.0 this is not, and the :w::b: cost basically kills it.

[Lothian]

Surely you're not suggesting that Wizards ban Tarmogoyf, are you?


Surely not, since they just printed Relic of Progenitus.

Tarmo: case closed.

[Alfred]

Surely you're not suggesting that Wizards ban Tarmogoyf, are you?

Affinity used Meddling Mage, yes, but that was because Mage acted as a Mesmiric Fiends for all copies of a given card. Meddling Mage 2.0 this is not, and the :w::b: cost basically kills it.

While Meddling Mage is certainly a good card, there are plusses and minuses to it's ability in comparison to Silencers'. While Mage can often name a card that is currently not in the hand of the player, Silencers will nab a card all of the time. It's more useful in the first game. It also increases the chance of success, because it will always equal the best card in an opponent's hand, which Meddling Mage can't guarantee.

Furthermore, it's very similar to Meddling Mage in that when it leaves play, the card it's neutralizing can be played, so that isn't a downside in comparison.

I just think that it's a pretty great card. It's certainly constructed playable, but most likely will not be in Legacy, because it's competing against Threshold. It seems like something Deadguy (if it's still being played) would desire, but I'm not exactly positive.

[Illissius]

About Skill Borrower:

1) EOT Worldly Tutor for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.
2) Tap Skill Borrower targetting itself (it is nonlegendary after all)
3) Tap the token targetting itself, rinse, repeat
4) Rule 313.2 states that the tokens will stay in play until the next End of Turn step
5) Untap, Draw, Swing for a decent amount.

Wow, this is actually pretty damn promising. Only four mana, not vulnerable to grave hate, and Worldly Tutor can both be a combo piece or find either one. And it's practically begging to use a Threshold shell. Only thing I don't like is it's still vulnerable to removal, but you can't have everything, and it's not as bad as some other combos -- you can do tricks like Top a Mongoose on top and then again afterwards for Kiki-Jiki. Or hell, tap Top to put it on top, then tap Borrower to put it on top (caution: Sensei's Divining Top does not have Haste), and then try again next turn. (Unfortunately: Borrower is an artifact, and Krosan Grip exists.)

Something like this for a start?

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Skill Borrower
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Worldly Tutor (or Lim-Dul's Vault)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
18 lands
-1 card, probably a Kiki-Jiki or a land

Borrower isn't too bad when it's just copying a Mongoose or Goyf, either. List probably needs some kind of removal, but whatever.

[Alfred]

Wow, this is actually pretty damn promising. Only four mana, not vulnerable to grave hate, and Worldly Tutor can both be a combo piece or find either one. And it's practically begging to use a Threshold shell. Only thing I don't like is it's still vulnerable to removal, but you can't have everything, and it's not as bad as some other combos -- you can do tricks like Top a Mongoose on top and then again afterwards for Kiki-Jiki. Or hell, tap Top to put it on top, then tap Borrower to put it on top (caution: Sensei's Divining Top does not have Haste), and then try again next turn. (Unfortunately: Borrower is an artifact, and Krosan Grip exists.)

Something like this for a start?

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Skill Borrower
3 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Worldly Tutor (or Lim-Dul's Vault)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
18 lands
-1 card, probably a Kiki-Jiki or a land

Borrower isn't too bad when it's just copying a Mongoose or Goyf, either. List probably needs some kind of removal, but whatever.

I like the SDT interaction you listed. I hadn't thought of that, and it seems very useful.

[Brehn]

It might have potential in a Cephalid Breakfast shell using the Kiki-Jiki/Sky Hussar/Karmic Guide kill:

- It's not bad when it's copying a combo piece - if it gets removed you just draw the combo piece and play it.
- It provides a graveyardindependant backup plan.
- You want to play Worldly Tutor anyway.

Unfortunately, it costs 3. For 2 its inclusion would have been obvious.

Edit, also note:
- Needle on Kiki-Jiki stops the usual Breakfast combo, but not the Borrower combo.
- Needle on Skill Borrower stops the Borrower combo, but not the usual Breakfast combo.

[Nihil Credo]

Why not a Survival shell instead? The combo is entirely creature-based, and it would give more applications to Skill Borrower (copy utility creatures) and also grant the ability to beat Needle / Propaganda, etc. Maybe you could even run it at the same time as the Full English Breakfast combo, who knows.

Also, Volrath's Stronghold lets you discard a Kiki-Jiki (to Survival or anything else) and then put it in the right place for Skill Borrower.

Great find, Brehn, btw.

[Illissius]

Is there any creature you had in mind for putting Kiki-Jiki on top when you don't draw Stronghold?

[Peter_Rotten]

Back to Manaplasm. Someone mentioned that it actually costs :2::g:. Can we confirm this? Also, MTGSalvation pointed out that it could be sorta sexy with Madness and Evoke. Evoke-Shriekmaw your blocker, swing for at least 6.

[rufus]

..Only thing I don't like is it's still vulnerable to removal...
You can just produce more copies in response to non-blanket or targeted removal. Aside from Grip you can tutor & pop in response to opponent-played removal, and then mass produce EOT so you've got bunches on the table.
I.e
Opponent plays bolt. With bolt on the stack, you tutor & copy repeatedly.
At EOT you mass produce copies in response to copies' EOT trigger.

If your opponent plays removal in response to the Wordly Tutor, you can pull another Copier instead when it resolves. Not ideal, but still only 1 for 1.

[Illissius]

Of course you can respond to removal by comboing. The trouble is if they removal in response to you attempting to combo. If you tap Borrower targetting itself and they kill it in response, you can't tap it again in response to that.

[Infinitium]

How do you get Kiki on top of your library without Stronghold though?

What about Imperial Recruiter? It fetches everything and is in color with Kiki should you want to hardcast it. Hell, I can even envision putting Painter's Stone in the same shell and going for some ridiculus abundance (although those spots are probably better used as disruption).

EDIT: Quadruplepost whilst I was busy editing. Looks like me first post here was a fail after all =(

[Nihil Credo]

Is there any creature you had in mind for putting Kiki-Jiki on top when you don't draw Stronghold?
Hag Hedge-Mage and Golgari Thug seem to be the best candidates (Boggart Harbinger also does the job, but isn't really needed since the problem is what happens when you draw KJ). Those two plus 4x Brainstorm should be enough, I think.

[Elfrago]

Skill Borrower looks too good and too rules-complex as it is right now. I'm pretty sure it will only copy the ability from artifact-creatures. Remember that both Mindlock Orb and Manaplasm had sn error when they were spoiled.

[georgjorge]

Why not a Survival shell instead? The combo is entirely creature-based, and it would give more applications to Skill Borrower (copy utility creatures) and also grant the ability to beat Needle / Propaganda, etc. Maybe you could even run it at the same time as the Full English Breakfast combo, who knows.

Also, Volrath's Stronghold lets you discard a Kiki-Jiki (to Survival or anything else) and then put it in the right place for Skill Borrower.

Great find, Brehn, btw.


I think there'd be no advantage over Shapeshifter if you run a Survival shell.



Borrower isn't too bad when it's just copying a Mongoose or Goyf, either. List probably needs some kind of removal, but whatever.


Does the text from Goyf really count as "ability" ? That would be great.



And it's practically begging to use a Threshold shell.

I wish I had a cent for every time a new combo shows up and is "put in a Threshold shell". But I then often find that the deck wins because of the shell, not the content. I think even Sneak Attack would look good when put in a Threshold shell :wink:

[Belgareth]

Back to Manaplasm. Someone mentioned that it actually costs :2::g:. Can we confirm this? Also, MTGSalvation pointed out that it could be sorta sexy with Madness and Evoke. Evoke-Shriekmaw your blocker, swing for at least 6.

It was confirmed as 2g
Sad but makes sense as it was really powerful at 2 mana.

[Peter_Rotten]

It was confirmed as 2g
Sad but makes sense as it was really powerful at 2 mana.

Do you have a link? It's still :1::g: at Salvation.

[Jaynel]

Here. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130497)

[Belgareth]

Do you have a link? It's still :1::g: at Salvation.

Here
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130497

EDIT : Snarth'd

[Cire]

NOOOOO!!!! :cry: .... and i was just trying to build a deck with shoals, beserks & invigorates just to make a huge manaplasma... and it was actually a consistent turn 3 win, now it stands no chance against the rest of the decks with only a gold fish of 4 :cry:

the borrower and kiki combo looks hilarious.

also there has to be some cool combo with

Sharuum the Hegemon :3: :w: :u: :b:
Legendary Artifact Creature - Sphinx Mythic Rare
Flying
When Sharuum the Hegemon comes into play, return target artifact card from your graveyard to play.
5/5

it looks at least like an interesting direction to take reanimation...you can get this into play and a sundering titan...

[Bardo]

http://wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/shardsofalara/qnnnghgmhn_EN.jpg

Fucking dude. This is awesome. Not sure if it's getting out of the EDH deck, but I seriously love this card.

[B.C.]

Wow. Three useful abilities on one card. Too bad it has :g: :w: in the cost. Still sweet, though.

[rufus]

also there has to be some cool combo with

Sharuum the Hegemon :3: :w: :u: :b:
Legendary Artifact Creature - Sphinx Mythic Rare
Flying
When Sharuum the Hegemon comes into play, return target artifact card from your graveyard to play.
5/5

It's doubtful, you've basically already got to cheat the critter into play. Making a combo on top of that will just make things more fragile with little benefit.

[BreathWeapon]

It's doubtful, you've basically already got to cheat the critter into play. Making a combo on top of that will just make things more fragile with little benefit.

A 6/6 Flier for free off of Buried Alive can't be that bad.

[rufus]

Wow. Three useful abilities on one card. Too bad it has :g: :w: in the cost. Still sweet, though.

There's probably some kind of GWU critter based aggro/control deck out there with Erayo, Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, Ethersworn Canonist, Tarmogoyf, Qasali Ambusher...

[Peter_Rotten]

Well, AdN is official - http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79205&stc=1&d=1221796296 - and, damn, that pic is CREEPY :cry: .

[The_Red_Panda]

That art is fucking awesome. I'm really glad it wasn't some horrible watercolor of a picture on a card that's going to be that influential. Plus, the flavortext is moderately funny.

[bruno_tiete]

Skill Borrower turns Congregation at Dawn into a one card, six mana (payable in 2 turns), bulk 2 combo.

Is that any good?

[Apex]

Hmm....If skill borrower combos with Kiki, it combos with Hulk also. Add to that Hulk combos with Kiki (and some other stuff), gogo skill borrower hulk?

And I REALLY want to see what the foil version of Ad Nauseam looks like. Which part of the art you think they will foil out? I hope it's all the ribcage on that dude. Speaking of ribs, that means the Chinese version of skeletal guy will be fugly as usual.

[bruno_tiete]

Hmm....If skill borrower combos with Kiki, it combos with Hulk also. Add to that Hulk combos with Kiki (and some other stuff), gogo skill borrower hulk?

In that case, you'll need a sacrifice outlet as well... not that a hulk build wouldnt carry one.

[TorpidNinja]

Hmm....If skill borrower combos with Kiki, it combos with Hulk also. Add to that Hulk combos with Kiki (and some other stuff), gogo skill borrower hulk?

And I REALLY want to see what the foil version of Ad Nauseam looks like. Which part of the art you think they will foil out? I hope it's all the ribcage on that dude. Speaking of ribs, that means the Chinese version of skeletal guy will be fugly as usual.

If Borrower combos with Kiki, then Borrower combos with Kiki. Therefore, why design around a more card intensive combo if you've already got the combo down to 2 cards?

[Apex]

If Borrower combos with Kiki, then Borrower combos with Kiki. Therefore, why design around a more card intensive combo if you've already got the combo down to 2 cards?

Because there are also more cards that combos with Hulk than Kiki. Having multiple paths for winning the game is not necessarily always bad, nor is it a new idea (old extended Breakfast lists often had the Life.dec mixed in it). It adds redundancy. Anyway, it's just an idea I'm throwing out there, and anything that can potentially abuse hulk is worth looking into.

[TorpidNinja]

Because there are also more cards that combos with Hulk than Kiki. Having multiple paths for winning the game is not necessarily always bad, nor is it a new idea (old extended Breakfast lists often had the Life.dec mixed in it). It adds redundancy. Anyway, it's just an idea I'm throwing out there, and anything that can potentially abuse hulk is worth looking into.

That's patently untrue. Hulk, I've always felt, was splash damage from Flash being amazing. We will never see anything of Flash power level which works in concert with Hulk ever again; it just received too much visibility. So, actively hunting for anything on a Hulk basis should be tertiary at best. As I said, there's already a good idea which doesn't require as much deck space as the Hulk direction and I'm increasingly a proponent of keeping it simple.

[Peter_Rotten]

I just got so excited for a new burn spell... and then I they gave Legacy this :

Magma Spray

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manar.gifInstanthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shards-of-alara-common.gifMagma Spray deals 2 damage to target creature.That creature can't be regenerated this turn. If the creature would be put into a graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead:frown: :frown:

[Pinder]

I just got so excited for a new burn spell... and then I they gave Legacy this :

Magma Spray

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manar.gifInstanthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shards-of-alara-common.gifMagma Spray deals 2 damage to target creature.That creature can't be regenerated this turn. If the creature would be put into a graveyard this turn, remove it from the game instead:frown: :frown:

Hey, it's better than Shock, right? ....Right?

In all fairness though, it's 1 less mana than Incinerate for 1 less damage and the same (actually a bit more powerful) effect. Not to say that Incinerate is really good anymore either, but there's always that to consider.

[Di]

Hey, it's better than Shock, right? ....Right?

In all fairness though, it's 1 less mana than Incinerate for 1 less damage and the same (actually a bit more powerful) effect. Not to say that Incinerate is really good anymore either, but there's always that to consider.

At least Incinerate can go to the dome.

[Pinder]

At least Incinerate can go to the dome.

It doesn't hit players? Well fuck that shit.

[TheCramp]

Grixis Charm :r::b::u:
Instant Uncommon
Return target permanent to its owners' hand; or target creature gets -4/-4 until end of turn; or creatures you control get +2/+0 until end of turn.




Aces for versatility. Don't know if it will see play. (outside of burning tog of course. which will be tier one now obviously. I mean you can't wish for it and everything!)

[Illissius]

Skill Borrower turns Congregation at Dawn into a one card, six mana (payable in 2 turns), bulk 2 combo.

Is that any good?

Oh my. And I was just thinking how fortuitous it is that Top was just banned in Extended, and neither Worldly Tutor, Lim-Dul's Vault, nor Brainstorm are legal. Congregation, though, very much is. This might be interesting. Possibly in Legacy, too -- you can't just shrug off a one card combo for 3+3 mana. The one thing I don't like is from the turn you play the Congregation, it takes you not one, but two more to actually kill, which is a lot of time. I'm wondering if there's any shenanigans you can pull with the third Congregation creature to speed it up a turn. If you have almost any sort of cantrip or top of library manipulation it becomes trivial -- make a lot of Borrower tokens and then turn them into Mogg Fanatic.

It is somewhat ironic that the Borrower combos aren't vulnerable to graveyard hate, but are still hurt quite badly by Extirpate.

EDIT -- I really want to see a scan of Skill Borrower now, to see if it's actually printed as spoiled. (The name is almost obviously something else, but besides that.)

[The_Red_Panda]

And I REALLY want to see what the foil version of Ad Nauseam looks like. Which part of the art you think they will foil out? I hope it's all the ribcage on that dude. Speaking of ribs, that means the Chinese version of skeletal guy will be fugly as usual.

I hope it's the little symbol he draws onto each of the pieces of paper.

[rufus]

I'm wondering if there's any shenanigans you can pull with the third Congregation creature to speed it up a turn. If you have almost any sort of cantrip or top of library manipulation it becomes trivial -- make a lot of Borrower tokens and then turn them into Mogg Fanatic.

Not unless you've got something other than Kiki-Jiki as the top card of the deck.
There might be something interesting with:
Skill Borrower/Phyrexian Devourer/?

Mindless Automaton is a draw 3 - which could be enough to put things over the top, but is a bit risky.

Walking Archive can be used for a draw 6 on the next turn.

Kiki-Jiki gets a bit of removal protection from the +6/+6.

[iOWN]

After reading Devourer I'm not sure if it works. The text, as printed on the card, would work, and in fact combo with Skill Borrower (you could stack the ability over and over, and after the first one he would have no limitations on power). Unfortunately, the errata seems to be a bit different. Not only is removing a card part of the cost (as would be assumed) but


When Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.
Remove the top card of your library from the game: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the removed card's converted mana cost. If Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

it looks like there is a second part to the resolution of his ability (a redundant sacrifice clause)?... I'll be sad if this interaction indeed doesn't work.

[rufus]

it looks like there is a second part to the resolution of his ability (a redundant sacrifice clause)?... I'll be sad if this interaction indeed doesn't work.

You're right, so it would have to be something like:
Skill Borrower / Phyrexian Devourer / Protean Hulk

The devourer is a sack outlet, so the hulk ability triggers. Without hulk in the graveyard, I'm not sure it's quite as easy to combo out, but it should be possible to do some kind of same-turn thing....

Edit: OK, it's demented (tm):
Pull out Volrath's Shapeshifter and Boggart Harbinger.
Harbinger's ability triggers to put Kiki-Jiki on top of the deck. Since the shapeshifter is copying the Skill Borrower, it can mass-copy itself with Kiki-Jiki's ability. When you have enough copies in play, copy the Boggart Harbinger, and put a Goblin Sharpshooter on top of the deck. EOT the tokens go to the graveyard, so the Sharpshooter's untap abilities trigger.

[Pinder]

Death Baron :1::b::b:
Creature - Zombie Wizard Rare
Other Zombie creatures and Skeleton creatures you control get +1/+1 and have deathtouch.


Wow, a Zombie (and Skeleton!) Lord that's actually worth running. It's too bad there aren't a ton of good zombies/skeletons waiting to be thrown into a deck with this guy. Or are there?

[Aggro_zombies]

Wow, a Zombie (and Skeleton!) Lord that's actually worth running. It's too bad there aren't a ton of good zombies/skeletons waiting to be thrown into a deck with this guy. Or are there?
No, there aren't. And even if there were, the deck would almost certainly be inferior to Goblins.

[hi-val]

No, there aren't. And even if there were, the deck would almost certainly be inferior to Goblins.

Just pointing out that I REALLY love that someone with your username responded to this question like this.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Well, let's be fair: the zombies are out there, and they're (as individual cards) pretty good. They're just not quite good enough for a competitive Legacy setting as it stands.

[Aggro_zombies]

Just pointing out that I REALLY love that someone with your username responded to this question like this.
Hey, it's true.

One of my first casual tribal decks was a zombie deck, circa Onslaught. I still play aggro Zombies occasionally (pun not intended). As much as I would love there to be a competitive Undead_Hordes.dec in the format, one of the best Zombies is Carnophage...so yeah, it probably won't happen, when you compare what Zombies the tribe are capable of against Goblins or Elf combo.

But God, I'd shit bricks if Zombies became good as a tribal deck in competitive Legacy.

[Lego]

Undead_Hordes.dec

Ichorid?

[AngryTroll]

Hey, it's true...one of the best Zombies is Carnophage...so yeah, it probably won't happen...

Solid: Withered Wretch, Graveborn Muse, Undead Warchief, Helldozer, Lord of the Undead, Korlash, Vulturous Zombie, Yixlid Jailer,

Playable: Nightscape Familiar, Organ Grinder, Phyrexian Scuta, Rotting Giant, Undead Gladiator

It looks like the real problem is that the zombies cost too much, and their Warchief is more of a Pump and Win leader instead of a Cost Less and Hurry Up Goblin Warchief.

Looks like there are two lords that cost 3, and one that costs 4. Vial, those dudes, Graveborn Muse...shoot, throw in Carnophage, Withered Wretch, and Organ Grinder, add some black disruption, see what happens.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Wow, a Zombie (and Skeleton!) Lord that's actually worth running. It's too bad there aren't a ton of good zombies/skeletons waiting to be thrown into a deck with this guy. Or are there?

HAY GAIS!

I found one.

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/putrid_imp.jpg + http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Golgari_Grave_Troll.jpg + http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Bridge_from_Below.jpg

[Elfrago]

Flame-Kin Zealot >>>>> Scrubby Zombie Lord

[Sek'Kuar]

On a positive note, There is also a Skeleton man-land in the form of Spawning Pool, and Svogthos turns into a Zombie. A big Zombie. And its immune to Death Rattle!!! (crowd goes wild.) :wink:

[Sims]

Solid: Withered Wretch, Graveborn Muse, Undead Warchief, Helldozer, Lord of the Undead, Korlash, Vulturous Zombie, Yixlid Jailer,

Playable: Nightscape Familiar, Organ Grinder, Phyrexian Scuta, Rotting Giant, Undead Gladiator

It looks like the real problem is that the zombies cost too much, and their Warchief is more of a Pump and Win leader instead of a Cost Less and Hurry Up Goblin Warchief.

Looks like there are two lords that cost 3, and one that costs 4. Vial, those dudes, Graveborn Muse...shoot, throw in Carnophage, Withered Wretch, and Organ Grinder, add some black disruption, see what happens.

Come on, no Grave Defiler?!

[rufus]

If Borrower combos with Kiki, then Borrower combos with Kiki. Therefore, why design around a more card intensive combo if you've already got the combo down to 2 cards?

If you're playing Congregation at Dawn, then you can add Phyrexian Devourer, Protean Hulk, Goblin Sharpshooter, and Goblin Harbinger to make the combo finish a bit faster.

[Apex]

Plus, the Hulk route makes it hard to needle (If you needle the skill borrower, you can combo out with hulk + sac outlet, if you needle sac outlet, you can combo out with skill borrower + Kiki). Though grave hate will suck for the hulk plan.

Plus, Harbinger tutors for Kiki anyway.

Though the entire plan hinges on resolving a 3 mana 1/3 creature (and have the correct dude on top of the library). Good enough for legacy? Maybe it's better off as a combo deck in extended.

[MattH]

Solid: Withered Wretch, Graveborn Muse, Undead Warchief, Helldozer, Lord of the Undead, Korlash, Vulturous Zombie, Yixlid Jailer,

Playable: Nightscape Familiar, Organ Grinder, Phyrexian Scuta, Rotting Giant, Undead Gladiator

It looks like the real problem is that the zombies cost too much, and their Warchief is more of a Pump and Win leader instead of a Cost Less and Hurry Up Goblin Warchief.

Looks like there are two lords that cost 3, and one that costs 4. Vial, those dudes, Graveborn Muse...shoot, throw in Carnophage, Withered Wretch, and Organ Grinder, add some black disruption, see what happens.

Gempalm Polluter + that zombie land was always the most attractive thing about zombie decks. Recurring uncounterable burn? Yes plz.

[Pinder]

Come on, no Grave Defiler?!

Why is everyone forgetting about Sarcomancy? The card is a 2/2 for :b: and has no drawback in the deck.

And there's the lesser known third lord, Zombie Master. Doesn't pump, but regeneration and swampwalk are decent, too.



Gempalm Polluter + that zombie land was always the most attractive thing about zombie decks. Recurring uncounterable burn? Yes plz.


It should be noted that this also works with Lord of the Undead, which returns zombies to your hand.


HAY GAIS!

I found one.



'One' does not qualify as 'a ton'.

edit - Oh, and for what it's worth, I was messing around on the new flash intro to the Wizards' site, and down below under the 'Planes of the Multiverse' section they have a thing for Alara. It has card art in it. I hope that Esper chick ends up on a good card, because that art is badass.

[rufus]

Here's a potentially better Borrower-Hulk stack:
Skill Borrower/ Disciple of the Vault/ Carrion Feeder / Elemental Harbinger (Put Reveillark on top of the deck)

[Pltnmngl]

Why is everyone forgetting about Sarcomancy? The card is a 2/2 for :b: and has no drawback in the deck.

And there's the lesser known third lord, Zombie Master. Doesn't pump, but regeneration and swampwalk are decent, too.



It should be noted that this also works with Lord of the Undead, which returns zombies to your hand.

I smell a thread around here somewhere...

[Opterown]

Salvage Titan 4BB

Artifact Creature - Golem

You may sacrifice 3 artifacts rather than pay ~'s cost.

Remove 3 Artifacts in your graveyard from the game: Return ~ from your graveyard to hand.

6/4

This looks quite interesting...

[hi-val]

I read that as Selvage Titan, and then I thought I need to spend less time talking about denim jeans : (

[moOnsteak]

Quietus Spike
Artifact - Equipment Rare :3:
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses half his or her life, rounded up.
Equip: :3:

Whiw, it's sure a card to rise the troops' killing intent. .
Maybe will be seen in any stompy deck?

[The Rack]

Quietus Spike
Artifact - Equipment Rare :3:
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses half his or her life, rounded up.
Equip: :3:

Whiw, it's sure a card to rise the troops' killing intent. .
Maybe will be seen in any stompy deck?

I don't think it will see play due it casting 3. Maybe if it casted 2 but there are a lot better things to do with 6 mana like cast a Magus. Not Legacy playable.

[Illissius]

Yeah, for 3+3 mana I think I would rather have Loxodon Warhammer. Still, it's pretty cool. And this Quietus dude/thing sounds pretty badass.

I've seen surprisingly little discussion of Skill Borrower relative to how powerful/broken it seems to be (with the Kiki-Jiki combo). It's like Painter, with the exception of being a lot better. Do I need to make a thread?

[Pinder]

I've seen surprisingly little discussion of Skill Borrower relative to how powerful/broken it seems to be (with the Kiki-Jiki combo). It's like Painter, with the exception of being a lot better. Do I need to make a thread?

It seems sort of fragile to me. Call me crazy, but I don't like combos that lose to Predict. If they have any way to mill a card, or make you draw a card, or if they Portent you, or something, it seems like you're fucked. Is there something I'm missing?

edit - Of course, I'm working under the assumption that you're working with Congregation at Dawn. I suppose just playing the borrower, then end step Worldly Tutor for Kiki Jiki could work. Still, though.

[hi-val]

It seems sort of fragile to me. Call me crazy, but I don't like combos that lose to Predict. If they have any way to mill a card, or make you draw a card, or if they Portent you, or something, it seems like you're fucked. Is there something I'm missing?

edit - Of course, I'm working under the assumption that you're working with Congregation at Dawn. I suppose just playing the borrower, then end step Worldly Tutor for Kiki Jiki could work. Still, though.

I think you could also run Top, for obvious reasons as well as STP protection. If someone points removal at Borrower, you draw a card with Top, then Top Borrower to the library and draw your Top. I said Top a lot just now but I'm guessing you know what I mean.

[Shugyosha]

It seems sort of fragile to me. Call me crazy, but I don't like combos that lose to Predict. If they have any way to mill a card, or make you draw a card, or if they Portent you, or something, it seems like you're fucked. Is there something I'm missing?

You're missing that nobody plays Portent anymore, fewer and fewer people play Predict and you will play counters and Counterbalance in a Borrower-Kiki deck.

Worldy Tutor digs for Goyfs as well to simple start beatdown and with Borrower it can set up Balance for 1-3 + 5 (against Forces).

With Sensei's on top and Borrower in play you can also draw an extra card every turn for :1::

Tap Borrower, with the ability on stack look with Borrower at the top 3 and put Sensei one down. Let the draw ability resolve, Borrower will not be placed on top as it is not Sensei's and you have a card.

With this in mind I see why they banned Top in extended...

[Aggro_zombies]

It seems sort of fragile to me. Call me crazy, but I don't like combos that lose to Predict. If they have any way to mill a card, or make you draw a card, or if they Portent you, or something, it seems like you're fucked. Is there something I'm missing?
You also lose to Lammastide Weave. *snickers*

This combo is fragile, but in different ways than Painter, and Painter has seen plenty of play. The fact that it's blue-based means you'll have access to Force, Daze, and Counterbalance at least. Hell, you could even squeeze this into a Threshold shell a la Swans combo.

[Shugyosha]

I think you could also run Top, for obvious reasons as well as STP protection. If someone points removal at Borrower, you draw a card with Top, then Top Borrower to the library and draw your Top. I said Top a lot just now but I'm guessing you know what I mean.

Borrower's name is not Sensei Divining Top so it won't be put on top of your library but you will draw a card. See my post below yours.

[Pinder]

Borrower's name is not Sensei Divining Top so it won't be put on top of your library but you will draw a card. See my post below yours.

Quicksilver Elemental would like to have a word with you. Whenever a copied ability mentions a card's name, you treat it as though it were the name of the card copying the ability. So Skill Borrower would still go on top of your library.

[Shugyosha]

Quicksilver Elemental would like to have a word with you. Whenever a copied ability mentions a card's name, you treat it as though it were the name of the card copying the ability. So Skill Borrower would still go on top of your library.

Skill Borrower doesn't copies but simply has the abilities. If it will be like Elemental Borrower would be absolutely insane, especially with Top. Imagine putting a Trinisphere or Winter Orb on top of your library at end of your turn and put it away at the end of your opponent's turn!

Edit: Plus it would be 3/5 Shroud with a mongoose on top and Threshold etc...

[Illissius]

It seems sort of fragile to me. Call me crazy, but I don't like combos that lose to Predict. If they have any way to mill a card, or make you draw a card, or if they Portent you, or something, it seems like you're fucked. Is there something I'm missing?

edit - Of course, I'm working under the assumption that you're working with Congregation at Dawn. I suppose just playing the borrower, then end step Worldly Tutor for Kiki Jiki could work. Still, though.

Yes, for Legacy the sure thing is Borrower plus Worldly Tutor/LDV (plus Top plus Brainstorm plus Ponder plus Counterbalance) -- see my earlier post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=275827&postcount=514). While the list there is likely far from perfect, I think it's a good starting point. Lim-Dul's Vault is probably worth using over Tutor because (a) it can find things like Counterbalance, Top, Force of Will, removal, whatever (b) it pitches to Force (c) the off chance (if you don't already have Borrower) that you'll find both Borrower and Kiki-Jiki in the same five cards.

Congregation is mainly of interest for Extended, because none of the other cards are legal there. I'm honestly not sure about it in Legacy. There's a chance that it's even more powerful/broken than the other version (I mean, one card combo for 3+3 mana), but it's also entirely possibly that it's just not as good as the cheaper two card variant. If anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd be interested to hear them. (Why oh why do I have this firm suspicion that all the interesting discussion is going on in team forums I'm not privy to?)

As for how it compares to Painter.

Painter is 2+1+3 mana. Borrower is (normally) either 3+1 or 3+2 mana.

Painter is vulnerable to spot removal for creatures. So is Borrower.

Painter is vulnerable to Krosan Grip and other artifact removal. So is Borrower.

Painter is very minimally useful by itself unless you build around it; Grindstone does basically nothing. Borrower pitches to Force and can copy a number of other useful things (starting with Tarmogoyf); Lim-Dul's Vault is a genuinely useful card (and Worldly Tutor isn't useless either); Kiki-Jiki is a complete dud.

Painter combos well with Elemental Blasts. Borrower combos well with Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, and to an extent Ponder.

[georgjorge]

I agree that it can be better than Painter, and that it fits really good in a deck already playing Brainstorms and Tops. So, are we sure that it DOES copy the Goyf "ability" ? That would almost be like playing with more than four Goyfs (with a little help from Brainstorm and Top) :smile: ! And we know that the more Goyfs, the better...

I'd run Tutor over Vault though, if only because a) being able to kill instantly on four lands instead of five is huge against some decks, and b) staying in two colors and running more basic Islands is a very nice thing.


As to Congregation, I don't think it's that good - basically, my comparison for one-card combos is Survival, which can not win the game but create a usually game-winning position by Welding in Titan or Triskelavite. That combo is 1G+GGGG+R (over several turns), and I found it to be too slow (and it isn't even vulnerable to removal).

[Illissius]

So, are we sure that it DOES copy the Goyf "ability" ?

According to my sources on IRC (and my own educated guess, although I am not a judge). Confirmation would be appreciated.

[Captain_Morgan]

I'm fairly excited about this set for once, it has a fair bit of power and might actually have me play block again.

[Cire]

Kathari Screecher :u: :b:
Creature - Bird Horror
Flying, deathtouch
2/1

that doesn't look so bad... 2 mana/2 power, Evasion, blue for FOW, and deathtouch to take care of large threats...looks like a solid beater for blue fish type decks

[Aggro_zombies]

Kathari Screecher :u: :b:
Creature - Bird Horror
Flying, deathtouch
2/1

that doesn't look so bad... 2 mana/2 power, Evasion, blue for FOW, and deathtouch to take care of large threats...looks like a solid beater for blue fish type decks
Why, oh why couldn't you have been a Faerie? :cry:

[Pinder]

Bone Splinters :b:
Sorcery Common
As an aditional cost to play Bone Splinters, sacrifice a creature.
Destroy target creature.

Fuck you, Innocent Blood.

edit - Although, I suppose Innocent Blood is still loads better when you don't have creatures, and it doesn't make you sac until it resolves. So maybe it's not as good as Innocent Blood (at least in some decks). But I could see it being pretty damn good.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

edit - Although, I suppose Innocent Blood is still loads better when you don't have creaturesThat's the best reason to run Innocent Blood. An Edict for one mana is great in the early stages of the game.

[Jaiminho]

Bone Splinters :b:
Sorcery Common
As an aditional cost to play Bone Splinters, sacrifice a creature.
Destroy target creature.

Fuck you, Innocent Blood.

edit - Although, I suppose Innocent Blood is still loads better when you don't have creatures, and it doesn't make you sac until it resolves. So maybe it's not as good as Innocent Blood (at least in some decks). But I could see it being pretty damn good.

I thought only decks that played close to 0 creatures liked Innocent Blood. Things like Pox or whatever.

[AngryTroll]

Bone Splinters :b:
Sorcery Common
As an aditional cost to play Bone Splinters, sacrifice a creature.
Destroy target creature.

Fuck you, Innocent Blood.

edit - Although, I suppose Innocent Blood is still loads better when you don't have creatures, and it doesn't make you sac until it resolves. So maybe it's not as good as Innocent Blood (at least in some decks). But I could see it being pretty damn good.

Hmm, Innocent Blood vs Bone Splinters:

Cool Name: slightly in Bone Splinter's Favor
Instant >> Sorcery
Upon Resolution >> Additional Cost
Each Player Sacrifices a Creature >-< Destroy Target Creature

I kind of doubt this will see any play, considering how little play Innocent Blood sees. Although Innocent Blood is a card I always try to fit into decks, so perhaps this will.

[Aggro_zombies]

Blood also kills Mongeese dead.

On an unrelated note, what the fuck is up with all the reprints in this set? Is it replacing the Core Set or something? We have Terror, Cancel, Gravedigger, Infest, Oblivion Ring, Naturalize, Pacifism, Angelic Blessing, Wild Griffin, Tidings, Essence Drain, Hidden Horror, and Goblin Mountaineer. And those are just the ones we know now! There will probably be more revealed tomorrow when we get the Jund and Naya precons.

EDIT: It seems I'm a tard. According to the Orb, a lot of those cards are coming from Tenth Edition. Tenth Edition cards? In my Expert Set precons?

It's more likely than you think...

[idraleo]

Hmm, Innocent Blood vs Bone Splinters:

Instant >> Sorcery


Epic fail Oo

[Apex]

Pretty good with Bitterblossom tokens (and the bajillion things that generate tokens in Shards, or have Unearth). Don't think it will hold up in older formats though.

Will see play in block?

[Alfred]

Pretty good with Bitterblossom tokens (and the bajillion things that generate tokens in Shards, or have Unearth). Don't think it will hold up in older formats though.

Will see play in block?


Probably not. I don't think it's good at all.

[Apex]

Either way, meh from me, for I could care less about block.

Interesting tidbit about Skill Borrower (again):

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=130282

This thread, a bunch of people listed out some comprehensive rule coverage that would determine whether Skill Borrower would be able to have a CIPT if the top card had a CIP ability.

Apparently, it can (so far, according to the way too complicated rules of layers and continuous effects).

So Skill Borrower revealing Trinket Mage will get you the Trinket Mage ability (right now anyway). Any other CIP abilities that sees play in legacy (both from creatures and artifacts)?

[georgjorge]

Maybe not right now, but I can definitely see tutoring up a Hypnox, Myojin of Cleansing Fire, Myojin of Seeing Winds or Sundering Titan for the effect (if the Myojin effect doesn't work, then Reiver Demon). 2UG to destroy all creatures/discard your opponent's hand/draw six or seven cards/destroy three or four lands is nice to have (on the other hand, I could just win with Kiki-tokens...). It would also work with Shapeshifter, but it's more expensive to get creatures into the yard then onto the top of libraries without Entomb.

As to "normal" creatures, I can only think of Shriekmaw.

[Apex]

It can also become an EE with 0-3 counters on it, become a Pithing Needle that can name something (at least I think so with the current wording), and I think that's about it from the useful artifact department?

[Nihil Credo]

become a Pithing Needle that can name something (at least I think so with the current wording)
This won't work. "As this CIP" abilities, unlike "When this CIP" abilities, apply before the card is in play (and right after it has left the stack), so before Skill Borrower can reveal the top card of your library. You won't be able to copy Needle or Mage or Pentarch Paladin's abilities with borrower.

On the topic of useful artifacts, it can become a Top to make itself resilient to removal.

(A too-cute-to-be-actually-playable trick exists with Nevinyrral's Disk: put the Disk on top, activate the Disk-Borrower's ability, in response flip your Top on top of your library, after it resolves flip your Top-Borrower. Repeat every turn for a total cost of six mana.)

[AngryTroll]

Maybe not right now, but I can definitely see tutoring up a Hypnox, Myojin of Cleansing Fire, Myojin of Seeing Winds or Sundering Titan for the effect (if the Myojin effect doesn't work, then Reiver Demon). 2UG to destroy all creatures/discard your opponent's hand/draw six or seven cards/destroy three or four lands is nice to have (on the other hand, I could just win with Kiki-tokens...). It would also work with Shapeshifter, but it's more expensive to get creatures into the yard then onto the top of libraries without Entomb.

As to "normal" creatures, I can only think of Shriekmaw.

FEB is probably just better. You get the same win ability, it still costs 3, but you run Survival as a tutor instead of something like Worldly Tutor. Add in four Goyfs, and you go to town.

On the other hand, Skill Borrower isn't hit by Tormod's Crypt or Wasteland. Still, I'd be surprised if a deck like this turned out to be better than a well built modern FEB list.

[Wallace]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/shardsofalara/gpou0yxlg3_EN.jpg
Great art for a great card, how did that happen?

[Zinch]

I think that in a control shell with tops, brainstorm, fow and more the borrower combo can be a solid deck.

Don't forget that you can leave a darkstell citadel in top of your library against smothers, snuff out, bolts,krosan grips... or do the top trick (put the top in top of your library, and then the borrower) against a StP...

Is a 2 card combo that only costs 3 mana to play if you have the pieces in their places

[Mirrislegend]

Great art for a great card, how did that happen?

Seconded. I really hope the rest of the set's art measures up also. There's such potential for this set, after all.

[Pinder]

(A too-cute-to-be-actually-playable trick exists with Nevinyrral's Disk: put the Disk on top, activate the Disk-Borrower's ability, in response flip your Top on top of your library, after it resolves flip your Top-Borrower. Repeat every turn for a total cost of six mana.)

How do you get Disk back on top of your library? Wouldn't you draw it with Top?

[Jaynel]

How do you get Disk back on top of your library? Wouldn't you draw it with Top?

You could move it down with Top after activating Disk-Borrower and draw a blank off the top.

[Zinch]

How do you get Disk back on top of your library? Wouldn't you draw it with Top?

you can pay one to put the disk the second card from the top so you don't draw it

But you cannot play this trick every turn: the borrower has summoning sickness :frown:

[georgjorge]

FEB is probably just better. You get the same win ability, it still costs 3, but you run Survival as a tutor instead of something like Worldly Tutor. Add in four Goyfs, and you go to town.

On the other hand, Skill Borrower isn't hit by Tormod's Crypt or Wasteland. Still, I'd be surprised if a deck like this turned out to be better than a well built modern FEB list.


Comboing out with Survival in FEB costs not 2GU like with Tutor and Borrower, but 2GGGUU at least, twice as expensive. Of course Survival is a better card on its own than Tutor, but the high mana cost of comboing out is just too much in this format, and reducing it might be worth running "worse" cards.



Salvage Titan 4BB

Artifact Creature - Golem

You may sacrifice 3 artifacts rather than pay ~'s cost.

Remove 3 Artifacts in your graveyard from the game: Return ~ from your graveyard to hand.

6/4


Affinity is getting some pretty good finishers ! It obviously can't run that AND Ravager AND the pump Equipment AND Master of Etherium, but I think it COULD cut down a bit on the number of subpar cards (Thopter, Frogmite, Worker etc). Maybe a midgame Affinity deck with redundant big threats instead of the all-out version that exists now could come out...

[rufus]

Regarding Borrower/Disk/SDT:
The disk taps to pop, so you'd have to untap the borrower.

I think it can work with Reveillark or something similar.
Pop the Disk -> Put Reveillark on top of the deck -> Borrower Brings itself back into play

It doesn't seem that strong to me though.

[AngryTroll]

Comboing out with Survival in FEB costs not 2GU like with Tutor and Borrower, but 2GGGUU at least, twice as expensive. Of course Survival is a better card on its own than Tutor, but the high mana cost of comboing out is just too much in this format, and reducing it might be worth running "worse" cards.

That's seven mana for Survival, as opposed to four for Skill Borrower. Skill Borrower:
Turn three: Skill Borrower
Turn four: Worldly Tutor / Lim Dul's Vault, combo
Turn five: win

FEB:
Turn two: Survival
Turn three: Do Survivally Stuff...find Squee, Akroma, Shapeshifter
Turn four: Cast Shapeshifter, beat with Akroma
Turn five: Win

That makes both decks turn five, but Skill Borrower needed the creature and the tutor; FEB just needs Survival. Now, with any of the following, FEB is a turn four win with just Survival, some land, and one of these: Bird (4 of), Volrath's Shapeshifter (4 of), Phage, or Akroma. With a Reanimate or Unearth and either Bird OR Akroma OR Phage Or Shapeshifter, the deck can win on turn three.

Plus, running Survival, Squee, and Goyfs is much better than Worldly Tutor and Goyfs.


Now, again, on the other hand, Skill Borrower can run Counterbalance + Top, and it isn't as easily disrupted by Mogg Fanatic, Bolt, Wasteland, or TCrypt (Tog = one of the best creatures in FEB). I think FEB is a great benchmark for Skill Borrower Combo.

[Aethan]

So about that Mindlock Orb...

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ftl/4

At first I thought, "Aha! Here comes the bane of thresh decks, combos and fetchlands!" Then I thought, "Hang on... U3?? How many thresh decks aren't going to be able to have an answer to this by turn 4? Sure, you could be playing UB control and get this out on the 2nd turn with a ritual but that's pretty inconsistent." Seems like it could have been a real threat if it cost U1, but it's not going to be much of a threat as U3. Thoughts?

[Noman Peopled]

Is it just me or does this set has more Legacy potential than we've seen in the past few sets? The number of potential Legacy cards seems unusually high.

Affinity seems to be gaining a lot. Not necessarily in its current aggressive incarnation, though. A slower, controllish version seems feasible; with Chalice and Ethersworn Canonist (main or side) it could have very good options against combo. Master of Etherium could be the guy that doesn't require sacrificeing board position to grow and can still beat. Its pumps is secondary but nothing to sneeze at; your Frogmites can now block non-Piledriver Goblins dead and survive and your manlands are better as well. Kinda like Faerie Stompy but with an artifact base (more potential explosiveness, more maindeckable "sideboard" cards).
I don't think the Sculptor will be played in Affinity. You can play only four so the deck's gotta work without it, and if it works without it, I'd rather play something else in Sculptor's spot. Flying would help immensely.

Etherium Sculptor may revive Eggs somewhat but my experience is that if you need to fill twelve slots with cards you'd really rather not play, you should find a better deck.

Ethersworn Canonist, however, will be hot. Not necessarily everywhere but I can see Extended Affinity splash for him. Although in post-rotation Extended I'd definitely prefer the aggressive rout until the dust settles.
It is of not that it's only the second such card that costs 2 (Mana Maze :p ) but also the first that doesn't count itself. Meaning that unlike Lab or Rule, you can back it up with counters. Erayo also seems worth testing with it as it's not useless on its own.

Tezzeret makes my head hurt. There's so much stuff you can do with him that I barely have a half-assed list ready when I get a new idea and start working on that.
I like that you can get one-ofs post-board (or hell, pre-board). Get a Lotus Bloom and it costs 2 for the cost of "not using its ability" this turn. If there's a 4CC artifact you wanna get, it costs you U to tutor and play (just as much as with E Tutor, but not splittable and thus slower and more vulnerable to counters, but also with no cda). Shame I can't find any good ones.

Skill Burrower is another brain hurter. I'm waiting for the rules FAQ.

Executioner's Capsule is nothing exciting but very, very solid with the artifact synergies that have already been mentioned. I have Trinket Mage and Academy Ruins, so I just extirpated your Goyf.

I can't think of a really good way to use Salvage Titan. I'd start with Chromatic Sphere, but Terrarion sucks way too often. Or Frogmites and Springleaf Drums once they outlived their usefulness. But this would mean that you're already pretty deep into the game ...

Soul's Fire is Fling without the sac part. I don't know if that's good enough to warrant the cost increase but it seems like it might, especially against decks with counters.

Wild Nacatl is just as playable as Zoo is.

Empyrial Archangel seems quite good but I'm not sure what to do with it. My first thought was to stuff it into Dredge so you can hold the ground with Zombies and the redirection effect. Shroud > pro red and pro black. But nobody even plays Akroma and a four-turn clock is very slow.

Qasali Ambusher sucks but could be quitegood in aggro-ish metagames. You don't always have to stop Goyf ... I wouldn't play it in aggro though. Too much that can go wrong there.

At first I didn't give Rhox War Monk a second thought as it seems kind of iffy ... what with Goyf being loose and all. On the other hand, Goyf vs. Monk is just as much a standoff as Goyf vs. Goyf is.

Tidehollow Sculler would be awesome if Deadguy Ale was playable. It may still have some fringe uses but nothing exciting. Maybe Rock or something?

I'm looking forward to seeing Relic of Progenitus in action against Goyf. The first one makes it a 0/1, the second one makes sure Goyf's controller has to work uphill (actually, even the first one can do that if it's played soon enough) - especially since you can target yourself and thus have some control over what types are removed.

Ad Nauseam is, at least to me, the most intruiging card in this set so far.
I just threw this together and "streamlined" it while goldfishing over half an hour. It's impressive for a very rough decklist. No doubt many improvements can be made. But it already has more slots for disruption than Belcher, although the T1 wins are kind of on the infrequent side:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
// black
4 Cabal Therapy (could be Duress or Thoughtseize or some combination thereof)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual (rarely produces BBB the first time around but it's fast mana and on-color)
4 Ad Nauseam (I have goldfished about twenty times and have whiffed once)
3 Tendrils of Agony (I really don't like the number - maybe LEDs plus Infernal Tutor could replace some of the Mysticals; come to think of it, Brainstorm just begs to be in this deck and together with Mystical it's a tutor; could also be BWish)
// blue
4 Pact of Negation (hard to evaluate while goldfishing, but with Moxen it's actually quite possible to pay the upkeep; since I usually got enough mana to play two Tendrils, Stifle could maybe be dealt with better through discard; but Pacts are better (=free) when assembling five mana to go off)
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Echoing Truth (seems way too little to deal with Chalice and other problems)
// red
4 Rite of Flame
3 Desperate Ritual (I really don't like the red mana but it's quite necessary and hasn't caused much problems in goldfishing)
// artifact
2 Mox Diamond (not confident with the number at all, but it is a nice way to produce mana of any color post-Nausea and occasionally makes hands with too many lands keepable)
4 Chrome Mox (Chrome Mox kinda sucks at times since you need every card in your hand but can also get rid of unneeded cards and is necessary)
4 Lotus Petal
// land
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
2 Badlands
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta (needs a lot of fiddling but basically works as a goldfish)

[KillemallCFH]

Etherium Sculptor may revive Eggs somewhat but my experience is that if you need to fill twelve slots with cards you'd really rather not play, you should find a better deck.Eggs has always had Helm of Awakening, and most lists didn't play that. We're going to need a hell of a lot more than this guy to make Eggs anywhere near playable.

@Mindlock Orb: Basically no chance of being played in Legacy (Blue Stax SB maybe?), but I've already started working on a MonoU Workshop deck in Vintage.

[rufus]

@Mindlock Orb: Basically no chance of being played in Legacy (Blue Stax SB maybe?), but I've already started working on a MonoU Workshop deck in Vintage.

There *might* be a Maralen/Mindlock lock out there. Most of the popular tutors would fall to Aven Mindcensor which is less expensive and a critter.

[KillemallCFH]

Most of the popular tutors would fall to Aven Mindcensor which is less expensive and a critter.Aven Mindcensor can't be cast off Workshop mana.

[moOnsteak]

Aven Mindcensor can't be cast off Workshop mana.

There is no workshop in legacy. .
Also Mindcensor can be accel by Ancient Tomb and/or City of traitors. .

Mindlock Orb shut all players when Aven just shut the opponent. .

[KillemallCFH]

There is no workshop in legacy.Thank you Professor Obvious.

I guess saying "in Vintage" wasn't enough of a tip-off. I'll try to be more clear next time.

[georgjorge]

That's seven mana for Survival, as opposed to four for Skill Borrower. Skill Borrower:
Turn three: Skill Borrower
Turn four: Worldly Tutor / Lim Dul's Vault, combo
Turn five: win

FEB:
Turn two: Survival
Turn three: Do Survivally Stuff...find Squee, Akroma, Shapeshifter
Turn four: Cast Shapeshifter, beat with Akroma
Turn five: Win

That makes both decks turn five, but Skill Borrower needed the creature and the tutor; FEB just needs Survival. Now, with any of the following, FEB is a turn four win with just Survival, some land, and one of these: Bird (4 of), Volrath's Shapeshifter (4 of), Phage, or Akroma. With a Reanimate or Unearth and either Bird OR Akroma OR Phage Or Shapeshifter, the deck can win on turn three.

Plus, running Survival, Squee, and Goyfs is much better than Worldly Tutor and Goyfs.


Now, again, on the other hand, Skill Borrower can run Counterbalance + Top, and it isn't as easily disrupted by Mogg Fanatic, Bolt, Wasteland, or TCrypt (Tog = one of the best creatures in FEB). I think FEB is a great benchmark for Skill Borrower Combo.

You're right, the combos can kill about the same turn (Birds would also accelerate Borrower by a turn), though with Survival you have to use your second turn casting it, while you can use it to play disruption (discard, CBalance) in the Borrower deck. But I agree that the comparison is a good one.

[goldenj]

This is not super legacy related, directly.

New on Salvation:
Sangrite Surge 4rg
Sorcery Uncommon
Target creature gets +3/+3 and gains double strike until end of turn.

How is this a 6cc sorcery? If it's going to be stupid (aka sorcery speed), cost it as rg or 1rg. If the cost is outrageous (4 or more) it had better be an instant. Because of all the trouble Giant Growth has caused in the past?

The card doesn't have to be playable in zoo - power levels would be crazy if a significant amount of cards were legacy playable. But they don't have to be even limited crap.

[Willoe]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/shardsofalara/gpou0yxlg3_EN.jpg
Great art for a great card, how did that happen?

Forget everything I said about this card being "well-balanced" and shit. This card is broken, and it's one of the better things that has happened to Legacy in a long, long period of time.

As long as this fucker resolves, we'll win.

Nice to see the card's art, the flavor text is especially awesome. The art has received a very "all or nothing" feel.

[rufus]

New on Salvation:
Sangrite Surge 4rg
Sorcery Uncommon
Target creature gets +3/+3 and gains double strike until end of turn.

How is this a 6cc sorcery? If it's going to be stupid (aka sorcery speed), cost it as rg or 1rg. If the cost is outrageous (4 or more) it had better be an instant. Because of all the trouble Giant Growth has caused in the past?

Part of the problem is that the card's power is drastically affected by the base power of the critter, and the card can easily be a game-ender in limited formats. 4rg is a bit over the top though.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Viscera Dragger is quite sweet.

[Apex]

Indeed it is, great limited Hill Giant. Depending on how the rest of the set goes, that dude might be a pretty high pick.

I actually want more limited fodders to be spoiled. So far, all of the stuff spoiled are useless mythics or a bunch of uncommons/rares, none of which will be the consistent backbone of any good limited deck.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm likewise itching to see the rest of the spoiler. While the stuff spoiled so far has me very interested, how good the commons and uncommons are will decide how many boxes I buy.

[hi-val]

Part of the problem is that the card's power is drastically affected by the base power of the critter, and the card can easily be a game-ender in limited formats. 4rg is a bit over the top though.

Yeah, the more I thought of it, the more it seems like this is fair(ishly) costed. You'll be putting it on at least a 1-power dude, so you'll end up dealing 8 damage if unblocked. That means you've dropped Might of Oaks on your guy, and that's just for a 1/* dork. If you tack it to an Elephant token, you're dealing 12 damage instead of 3. That's huge against a slower deck that can weather a hit or two from a creature, but not effectively three Relentless Assaults.

I'd rather have the cost dropped or this made an Instant, at least.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yes and Stonewood Invocation only costs 3G and is so much better!

[heroicraptor]

It sucks that the art from Alara kicks the shit out of the actual cards. :-/

[Alfred]

As a sorcery, that's pretty awful, even in limited.

[Aggro_zombies]

As a sorcery, that's pretty awful, even in limited.
Most of the cards in this set look like they'll be awful, even in Limited.

Luckily, there are a bunch of really good cards for Legacy. Speaking of which, it's now officially confirmed that Skill Borrower has the Quicksilver Elemental reminder text.

[b4r0n]

I'm sure many of you have seen this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=131256) already, but in case you haven't: a box has been opened and scanned onto mtgsalvation. A lot of amazing artwork, a couple decent cards, and a good deal of chaff. Seems like the power level of Alara is being toned down a bit. Ah well. Limited still looks hella fun.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Is anyone else impressed by the crappiness + sheer laziness of Naya Battlemage's flavor text? "I have trained in all three schools of magic" on a tri-colored battlemage. No shit. I want this template on all cards. Meddling Mage; "I stop people from playing one particular spell." Shivan Dragon; "I breath fire and can only be blocked by other creatures with the same evasive ability I have". Tarmogoyf; "I was clearly misprinted".

[AngryTroll]

Is anyone else impressed by the crappiness + sheer laziness of Naya Battlemage's flavor text? "I have trained in all three schools of magic" on a tri-colored battlemage.

Is this the actual flavor text? I can almost hope that it is a joke my mtgsalvation, like the lipstick on Wolly Thoctor.

On the other hand....it's too subtle to be a fake. Sad.


Tarmogoyf; "I was clearly misprinted".

You should submit a resume to Wizards.



Level 5 Flavor-Text-Writing Wizard
Level 3 Table-Jumping Mage

[heroicraptor]

Is this the actual flavor text?
A guy cracked a booster box. He scanned in every unique card he got. Naya Battlemage is the bottom leftmost card (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79450&d=1222208829).

Also, the spoiler (http://mtgsalvation.com/shards-of-alara-spoiler.html) is finished.

[Brehn]

Skill Borrower is dead. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79439&d=1222208500) But at least he's not a rules nightmare anymore.

Edit:

Uhm. Actually he's not _that_ dead. I forgot that Kiki-Jiki states "The token has haste". But it's become a turn slower which at least kills it to some extent.

[Poesjuh]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79459&d=1222209048

Lich's Mirror looks a lot like The Ring ^^

[Amaroid]

Is this the actual flavor text? I can almost hope that it is a joke my mtgsalvation, like the lipstick on Wolly Thoctor.

The flavor text isn't laziness in my opinion; it's implying that the mage (like all other beings on the plane) isn't even aware that two other colors of magic exist.

Concerning the completed spoiler, I'm still puzzled that O-Ring, Naturalize and Cancel are all actually being printed in this set. The latter two are in Tenth Edition, so either they aren't going to be in 11th or Wizards just couldn't come up with more creative versions of Cancel and Naturalize effects for Limited.

[TheCramp]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79459&d=1222209048

Lich's Mirror looks a lot like The Ring ^^

That card has the best art so far. (In my opinion...)

[Timmy, Power Gamer]

Concerning the completed spoiler, I'm still puzzled that O-Ring, Naturalize and Cancel are all actually being printed in this set. The latter two are in Tenth Edition, so either they aren't going to be in 11th or Wizards just couldn't come up with more creative versions of Cancel and Naturalize effects for Limited.

They want those cards available for block constructed and they just don't want to have to come up with yet another variation of a hard counter for three.

[Poesjuh]

Huhm, personally I like the Homunculus token a lot, think I'm going to collect that one :P It's just so... Cute ^^

[Illissius]

Well, summoning sickness pretty well nerfs the Skill Borrower combo. Which is a good thing, too -- had it not been broken enough to be bannable, it would've been just broken enough to make everyone wish it were.

And as we now have the full spoiler, it's time for what's hopefully the final version of...

We All Love Lists (In A Yellow Submarine)

[likelihood of various cards seeing play in Legacy, with occasional comments]

yes

Relic of Progenitus
Wild Nacatl
Ad Nauseum /* as a singleton in TES, if nothing else */

probably

Tezzeret the Seeker
Ethersworn Canonist
Master of Etherium
Sigil of Distinction
Executioner's Capsule
Dispeller's Capsule
Empyrial Archangel /* Natural Order, Reanimator, etc. */

maybe

Rhox War Monk
Woolly Thoctar
Qasali Ambusher
Hellkite Overlord
Godsire
Realm Razer /* must be abusable somehow... and it's another Green Creature */
Salvage Titan
Swerve /* my pick for sleeper hit of the set */
Tidehollow Sculler /* Welder Survival loves a card which is (a) an artifact (b) a creature and (c) disruption -- too bad the colors suck */
Sharuum the Hegemon /* there are probably interesting interactions and combinations with this */
Elvish Visionary /* Multani's Acolyte saw play in Elf decks... */
Tidehollow Strix
Sprouting Thrinax /* Destructive Flow was always short another good beater; is this it? */

possibly

Jund Charm
Esper Charm
Naya Charm /* return any card */
Bant Charm
Battlegrace Angel
Hindering Light
Mindlock Orb
Stoic Angel
Cunning Lethemancer /* Demon Stompy? */
Mycoloth /* sort of like Natural Order -> Verdant Force in one card */
Ranger of Eos /* all hail Martyr of Sands! (Dreadnought?) */
Deathgreeter
Hissing Iguanar /* I remember thinking I wanted a creature with this effect... but I can't remember what for */
Etherium Sculptor
Fatestitcher /* first card which lets you potentially make mana from the graveyard: must be abusable somehow */
Rafiq of the Many

probably not

Courier's Capsule
Blightning
Ajani Vengeant
Sarkhan Vol
Elspeth, Knight Errant
Manaplasm
Cruel Ultimatum
Sedraxis Specter
Sedris the Traitor King
Scourglass
Filigree Sages
Puppet Conjurer
Shadowfeed
Gift of the Gargantuan
Skullmulcher /* Food Chain or something? */
Topan Ascetic /* Elephant Stompy? */
Skill Borrower
Soul's Fire /* we have Fling and Berserk... earmark this for Extended. (Dreadnought?) */

no

everything else


Note that this list does not consider how powerful the card is likely to be if it does see play; only whether or not it's likely to.


Thought: Did R&D design this set with the explicit purpose of making Trinket Mage and Natural Order better?

[Nihil Credo]

Is anyone else impressed by the crappiness + sheer laziness of Naya Battlemage's flavor text? "I have trained in all three schools of magic" on a tri-colored battlemage. No shit.

It's not actually lazy. The point of that flavour text is the "all" - it's supposed to inform people that on Jund there is no white or blue mana. If it disappoints, it's in being too subtle*.

*I personally think the "Ooh, five separate worlds" concept wasn't a great idea at all. Too many cards are hard to guess which shards they belong to, and stark contrasts between colours were common in other blocks as well.

[b4r0n]

Thought: Did R&D design this set with the explicit purpose of making Trinket Mage and Natural Order better?

Sure seems that way. Also, that list of playables seems dead on.

[rufus]

I think there are a couple of other probably nots --
Goblin Assault
Brilliant Ultimatum

Another card that might have gotten a leg up from this set is Glittering Wish.

Realm Razer seems like a decent target for Natural Order.

[georgjorge]

I laughed at that card...

Excommunicate 2W
Sorcery Common
Put target creature on top of its owner's library.


I see...so the creature, which of course belongs to a certain religion, gets excommunicated. This damages it so badly that it gets put away on the library...but on the next turn, it returns, shrugging off the excommunication with ease.

One of the worst card names ever.

[Aggro_zombies]

I laughed at that card...

Excommunicate 2W
Sorcery Common
Put target creature on top of its owner's library.


I see...so the creature, which of course belongs to a certain religion, gets excommunicated. This damages it so badly that it gets put away on the library...but on the next turn, it returns, shrugging off the excommunication with ease.

One of the worst card names ever.
They originally tested it as an "RFG" card, but that proved too balanced, so they had to make it more underpowered to fit with the rest of the set.

[Mirrislegend]

I love this set. It's well designed throughout, good mechanics/thematic connections, and looks like a blast for constructed and limited. Now the only question is how much to buy. I'm considering buying 4x Esper intro pack, just to get a playset of foil Master of Etherium. Does anyone know what the intro packs are going to retail for? SCG is selling them for (effectively) 7 a pop, but they undercut with their pre-orders.

[goldenj]

Esper has the potential to be a very annoying standard deck. I can see the format degeneratng into Esper and heavy artifact hate.

[Illissius]

I think there are a couple of other probably nots --
Goblin Assault

If Bitterblossom sees limited play in this format, Goblin Assault will see zero. If it were at least Tribal, then it would get the status of "probably not".

...though I guess it does cost :2::r: for Dragon Stompy purposes, which I had completely overlooked. So you might actually be right. It doesn't compare favorably to Bitterblossom, but Taurean Mauler might well be a different story. This moves it up all the way to "maybe".


Brilliant Ultimatum

This is a remotely-playable card in formats where Mind's Desire is legal, but Legacy isn't one of them.


Realm Razer seems like a decent target for Natural Order.

Yeah. Ass of two really sucks, though. So I'm wondering if it belongs in the maindeck, sideboard, or neither.

[rufus]

[Brilliant Ultimatum] is a remotely-playable card in formats where Mind's Desire is legal, but Legacy isn't one of them.

While Mind's Desire is not legal, Legacy does have hideaway lands and Sins of the Past. The sheer power of the effect might be enough to offset the obscene casting cost. The real problem with the Ultimatums is that they're all massive counter bait.

[Lothian]

It's not actually lazy. The point of that flavour text is the "all" - it's supposed to inform people that on Jund there is no white or blue mana. If it disappoints, it's in being too subtle*.

*I personally think the "Ooh, five separate worlds" concept wasn't a great idea at all. Too many cards are hard to guess which shards they belong to, and stark contrasts between colours were common in other blocks as well.

And what about Jhessian Lookout:

"I can see Russia from my house!"

Is it for real ????

[Illissius]

While Mind's Desire is not legal, Legacy does have hideaway lands and Sins of the Past. The sheer power of the effect might be enough to offset the obscene casting cost. The real problem with the Ultimatums is that they're all massive counter bait.

Without Desire, I'm having trouble seeing how you could keep chaining them together into a win. Running ranom expensive cards in the deck just so you can maybe find them with Ultimatum/Hideaway seems like a bad idea, and playing a bunch of inexpensive cards for free won't win you the game. Maybe you can prove me wrong, though. (Also, actually casting Ultimatum -- as opposed to flipping it off Desire -- seems rather difficult, which seems like it would make you overly reliant on Hideaway).

[Knuckles29]

Esper has the potential to be a very annoying standard deck. I can see the format degeneratng into Esper and heavy artifact hate.

It won't. We have Shatterstorm, Aura of Silence, and other common ways to handle it. This set is cute. But that is it. The charms are the real "jewel" along with a few xyz guys.

I mean there probably are 20+ cards that will be tired.. maybe 10 will really impact.

Sans reanimation strategies

[rufus]

Without Desire, I'm having trouble seeing how you could keep chaining them together into a win. Running ranom expensive cards in the deck just so you can maybe find them with Ultimatum/Hideaway seems like a bad idea, and playing a bunch of inexpensive cards for free won't win you the game. Maybe you can prove me wrong, though. (Also, actually casting Ultimatum -- as opposed to flipping it off Desire -- seems rather difficult, which seems like it would make you overly reliant on Hideaway).

The thing is that Brilliant Ultimatums can chain into themselves through topdeck as well as Sins of the Past, Spellweaver Helix and possibly some other ways. On reflection, it does seem categorically inferior to Dragonstorm.

[AngryTroll]

It won't. We have Shatterstorm, Aura of Silence, and other common ways to handle it. This set is cute. But that is it.

In Standard, or Type Two, there could be some pretty solid artifact decks.

I can't remember there being this much good stuff for Legacy in a set since...Time Spiral? There are several cards that will see play in their own decks (Ad Nauseum, Tezzet), and a ton of great support cards that will see play (Master of Etherium, Wild Nectle, etc).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's not actually lazy. The point of that flavour text is the "all" - it's supposed to inform people that on Jund there is no white or blue mana. If it disappoints, it's in being too subtle*.

Bullshit. I got that reference. It's still heavy-handed laziness. Would you think it was subtlety to, "I can block and be blocked by all my pals in this dimensional normally" on a guy with Shadow?

[Isamaru]

Yeah, if it was just ONE of the Battlemages, I'd let it slide, but theres at least 2 that have retarded flavor text.

[georgjorge]

Without Desire, I'm having trouble seeing how you could keep chaining them together into a win. Running ranom expensive cards in the deck just so you can maybe find them with Ultimatum/Hideaway seems like a bad idea, and playing a bunch of inexpensive cards for free won't win you the game. Maybe you can prove me wrong, though. (Also, actually casting Ultimatum -- as opposed to flipping it off Desire -- seems rather difficult, which seems like it would make you overly reliant on Hideaway).


Mosswort Bridge + Dreadnought + Mystical Tutor. I think it doesn't get easier than that, and it still looks too much of a hassle for the effect :mad:

[Illissius]

I can't remember there being this much good stuff for Legacy in a set since...Time Spiral? There are several cards that will see play in their own decks (Ad Nauseum, Tezzet), and a ton of great support cards that will see play (Master of Etherium, Wild Nectle, etc).

Future Sight, I think. Lorwyn gave us Thoughtseize, Ponder, and Doran, which are all "definitely see play in a whole ton of decks", so I'm not sure if Shards beats that, either. Still, a good set for Legacy -- though not as insane as it seemed before Skill Borrower gained the word "activated".

[Aggro_zombies]

And what about Jhessian Lookout:

"I can see Russia from my house!"

Is it for real ????
Yes, but only on the Japanese version of the card, as Japan is right next to Russia.

However, I heard a rumor that a limited edition print run of these was made for sale in Alaska with the English version of the same flavor text. They'll probably go on ebay for quite a bit, as the ones in the mainland United States and the various western European languages will have a different flavor text.

It's currently unclear as to which flavor text they'll use for the Russian versions of the card.

[BreathWeapon]

It's currently unclear as to which flavor text they'll use for the Russian versions of the card.

That'd be interesting to see, because Russians hate Palin with a passion, she's fast becoming a national joke here.

[The_Red_Panda]

I was under the impression quite a bit of the world hated Palin, not just Russia. That includes a large bit of the US. I'm tempted to buy these and have the art altered into a political cartoon. I could probably throw them into a casual deck, and have a pretty good time with it too.



EDIT: this post is pretty offtopic, so I figured I would also mention that MTGsal has the whole set up now, and that I'm really looking forward to a few of the commands. Not for playing in legacy, or even extended mind you, but in other formats some of these cards have the potential to be pretty freakin' sweet. I.E. A bunch of the legends for EDH, and also most of the commands for EDH. Except that stupid one that mask of the mimics all your permanents. That one I don't look forward to.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

That'd be interesting to see, because Russians hate Palin with a passion, she's fast becoming a national joke here.

In Soviet Russia, sarcasm uses you.

[Di]

That'd be interesting to see, because Russians hate Palin with a passion, she's fast becoming a national joke here.

I still don't understand this given your IP address is American, and I don't see a point in spoofing IP's and the like on here, sooo wtf?


Also, keep this on topic.

[Zir]

And what about Jhessian Lookout:

"I can see Russia from my house!"

Is it for real ????

MTGSal always provides the spoilers with a certain number of wrong flavour texts in order to check what sites copy/paste their spoiler.
For instance, on Woolly Thoctar:
"The only difference between a hockey mom and a Woolly Thoctar is lipstick."
Which isn't the actual flavour text as you might've noticed.

[Tilde]

MTGSal always provides the spoilers with a certain number of wrong flavour texts in order to check what sites copy/paste their spoiler.
For instance, on Woolly Thoctar:
"The only difference between a hockey mom and a Woolly Thoctar is lipstick."
Which isn't the actual flavour text as you might've noticed.

Indomitable Ancients had "The treefolk of Lorwyn are never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down."

[Apex]

Springjack Shepherd had that line from Lost. It's a tradition they've been doing for some time now.

Back to WotC stuff: anyone finding this statement quite weird?

"The biggest news this time around is the errata to Time Vault, which will bring it back to its original functionality (or as close as we can get while still working within the rules). In fact, its new wording is so wonky that it's actually getting a new rule to allow it to work! You can find it by clicking on the "Functional Oracle Changes" link below."

New Oracle text:
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.
If you would begin your turn while Time Vault is tapped, you may skip that turn instead. If you do, untap Time Vault.
{oT}: Take an extra turn after this one.

Wtf is with that wording?

Also, Serra Avatar got a new Oracle text, it's now a triggered ability instead of a replacement one. Anyway to abuse it?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Suggested final fix to Time Vault errata;


"At the beginning of the game, before shuffling your deck, remove Time Vault from your deck whether or not playing for ante.

Then burn it.

Thnx

- Love, DCI"



Also, Serra Avatar got a new Oracle text, it's now a triggered ability instead of a replacement one. Anyway to abuse it?

Halls of Mist + Nova Pentacle

[BreathWeapon]

I still don't understand this given your IP address is American, and I don't see a point in spoofing IP's and the like on here, sooo wtf?


Also, keep this on topic.

I live in Brighton Beach,

I didn't mean to get off topic, I just thought it'd be interesting to see whether or not WOTC does/doesn't use the quote in Russia from a marketing angle, since it's from a controversial political figure.

[m03]

I didn't mean to get off topic, I just thought it'd be interesting to see whether or not WOTC does/doesn't use the quote in Russia from a marketing angle, since it's from a controversial political figure.

It's actual flavor text is:


"She stands ready, always watchful, knowing that weeks of peace and serenity can be overturned by a single distant sail."

So yeah, they'll probably translate that for other languages just fine. I see no problem here.

Looks like people keep falling for the same MTGSalvation gags every time a new set is released.

[AngryTroll]

I didn't mean to get off topic, I just thought it'd be interesting to see whether or not WOTC does/doesn't use the quote in Russia from a marketing angle, since it's from a controversial political figure.



http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/facepalm.jpg

[snoopYah]

I just noticed this:


* If a creature returned to play with unearth would leave play for any reason, it's removed from the game instead -- unless the spell or ability that's causing the creature to leave play is actually trying to remove it from the game! In that case, it succeeds at removing it from the game. If it later returns the creature card to play (as Oblivion Ring or Flickerwisp might, for example), the creature card will return to play as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The unearth effect will no longer apply to it.
(Shards of Alara FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dci/downloads/EN_MTGALA%20FAQ%20092308.doc))

This means that Unearth creatures are playable in Loam with Astral Slide.
You can put them into your graveyard with LftL and then unearth them and remove them with Astral Slide, so you keep them.

Some Unearth creatures that could be useful:

Viscera Dragger :3::b:
Creature - Zombie Ogre Warrior (C)
Cycling :2:
Unearth :1::b:
3/3

Corpse Connoisseur (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78475&d=1220889240)

Sedraxis Specter (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78685&stc=1&d=1221192099)

[edgewalker]

That seems like an awful lot of hoops to jump through just to get some 3/3's and a hypnotic specter. Don't get me wrong, it's a really cool idea, but is it work trying to build a deck?

[b4r0n]

Wow. That's really interesting... I wouldn't have expected Unearth to work like that.

Viscera Dragger is still pretty cool, but I'm not sure that this interaction makes it (or any of the Unearth creatures) significantly better.

[Mirrislegend]

So I can Unearth a dude, and before he bites it to his own Unearth clause, Slide him out? And he'll come back and stay in play?

[nastynate]

So I can Unearth a dude, and before he bites it to his own Unearth clause, Slide him out? And he'll come back and stay in play?

Yes. When objects come into to play from another zone, they are treated as new objects (barring phasing shenanigans). So we can astral slide morphed creatures and they return to play face up, we can momentary blink evoked creatures and they return to play without being sacrificed, and when we use turn to mist on an unearthed creature it forgets the remove from the game clause it had before changing zones.

[rufus]

Wow. That's really interesting... I wouldn't have expected Unearth to work like that.

Otherwise, it leads to a situation where an RFG effect is replaced with an RFG effect, which could easily get messy.

Unearth is probably going to be better with something like survival or dredge that allows you to cheat critters into the GY.

[Apex]

I remember saying something like "Unearth will be the mechanism to watch for, it's a pretty strong mechanic" some pages back.

...

And then WotC prints zero good Unearth cards. Fuck you wizards. Where are my Mulldrifters and Shriekmaws of this set huh?

Though on the bright side, unearth Corpse Connoisseur and grab the newly errated Serra Avatar and put it in the graveyard, in response to the trigger, Corpse Dance that bizatch. Then slide Corpse Connoisseur out and get some other fatty and do it all over again. Oh yeah, that's totally going into my EDH deck.

[georgjorge]

Yea, I'm pretty pissed too (as an Ichorid and Survival player). Couldn't they have made Unearth creatures that, you know, DO something relevant other than beating for three or four ? Or made an Unearth creature without a mana cost (like Cabal Therapy/Dread Return for Flashback) ?

I just hope there's going to be more Unearth in the next sets...

[Aggro_zombies]

Yea, I'm pretty pissed too (as an Ichorid and Survival player). Couldn't they have made Unearth creatures that, you know, DO something relevant other than beating for three or four ? Or made an Unearth creature without a mana cost (like Cabal Therapy/Dread Return for Flashback) ?

I just hope there's going to be more Unearth in the next sets...
There probably will be, and since it seems Wizards is returning to a more traditional block model, the mechanic will most likely evolve in the coming sets.

That said, given what we've seen out of Shards, I don't expect much more than a few good cards out of the block as a whole. Shards as a set feels so underpowered it hurts.

Speaking of the set, there's a full spoiler in Gatherer now. The cards may be (mostly) chaff, but the art rocks.

[Di]

Unearth Shriekmaw would've got me hard. Or better, Eternal Witness.

[Captain_Morgan]

Pretty much a shitty set with a high tier of usable cards, classic base set. I'll wait for round 2 or 3 to buy a box like I normally do.

I was actually surprised by the sheer amount of shit this set has, after Lorwyn I was expecting "meh kinda usable" to be the baseline not "overcosted pieces of shit."

Really wastes long term value going back to that mindset to be honest.

[Nihil Credo]

Power creep had become noticeable in T2, and it wasn't imputable only to the large card pool. I'm happy they realized the problem and took countermeasures, even though it means a few less Legacy cards this time around.

[Captain_Morgan]

Power creep had become noticeable in T2, and it wasn't imputable only to the large card pool. I'm happy they realized the problem and took countermeasures, even though it means a few less Legacy cards this time around.

I'd tend to disagree, maybe to bring "noobs" into the fray for simplicity. However, this set really is unexciting outside of a couple really stellar things. The real issue though isn't so much power creep, it's maintaining a level of power long term. It's when we get shit like Kawigama or this that people get irritated and buy less product.

If anything Lorwyn proved to be both beneficial and equally interesting that invited a lot more into deck design. These? Feel like I'm back to playing Portal.

[Mr.C]

Which, by the way, portal had some pretty nice art.

At least they fixed the art issue. the cards are VERY good looking.

[rleader]

If anything Lorwyn proved to be both beneficial and equally interesting that invited a lot more into deck design

Yeah, Tribal shit really gets the brain gears turning... oh wait, that's them building decks for people.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There were other thought processes involved in Lorwyn.

Step 1) Should I cut Portent/Duress for Ponder/Thoughtseize?

Step 2) Yes.

[hi-val]

Power creep had become noticeable in T2, and it wasn't imputable only to the large card pool. I'm happy they realized the problem and took countermeasures, even though it means a few less Legacy cards this time around.

Unfortunately, I suppose, manabases are really freakin' good right now. The Vivid Lands are a little too strong all things considered. I can see that you want players to be able to play their RGW decks without getting colorscrewed out of existence, but being able to Figure of Destiny, Bitterblossom, Sprouting Thrinax and then Cryptic Command is a little much...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Someday they'll reprint Wasteland in a coreset, realize, "Holy shit! This thing forces people to actually justify splashing other colors!", and then never cut it from a coreset again.

[Mirrislegend]

Remember how we all loved Ad Nauseum, in play, art, and design from the moment it was spoiled? Apparently it gets better. WotC gave us a blown up version of the art.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/cardart/ALA/Ad_Nauseam_640.jpg

Note that he's writing the same symbol over and over on every piece of paper, and his hands have completely withered away. The pen is not only strapped to his arm, but feeds from it; the dude is writing with his own blood. If possible, I love this card even more now.

[Barook]

Some time ago, they wanted to reprint Wasteland in a coreset, realized, "Holy shit! This thing forces people to actually justify splashing other colors! We can never force people to get our new, shitty versions of Duals in the next two years!", and then never tried to come up with good, original non-basic hate ever again.

Fixed

[Jaiminho]

Note that he's writing the same symbol over and over on every piece of paper, and his hands have completely withered away. The pen is not only strapped to his arm, but feeds from it; the dude is writing with his own blood. If possible, I love this card even more now.

The dude on the picture is left handed. He deserves to die.

[Spectör]

The dude on the picture is left handed. He deserves to die.

You arez teh EVIL!
No, this artwork ist best. For Real.

Also, where's that chick with the white and the black etherium balls gone?

[The_Red_Panda]

Some time ago, they wanted to reprint Wasteland in a coreset, realized, "Holy shit! This thing forces people to actually justify splashing other colors! We can never force people to get our new, shitty versions of Duals in the next two years!", and then never tried to come up with good, original non-basic hate ever again.

Fixed

If four wastelands with no notable recursion strategy are going to scare you enough not to splash excess cards from other colors and subsequently not need their new duals, you're a complete pansy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Fixed

Touche.

[Mayk0l]

Note that he's writing the same symbol over and over on every piece of paper, and his hands have completely withered away. The pen is not only strapped to his arm, but feeds from it; the dude is writing with his own blood. If possible, I love this card even more now.

And his eyes are taped open. I love that kind of detail.

[caiomarcos]

And his eyes are taped open. I love that kind of detail.

They're more like hooked, or stapled open.
The card is AWESOME. Every bit of it.

[heroicraptor]

Also, he's got the Dimir signet implanted on his forhead. :3

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Also, he's got the Dimir signet implanted on his forhead. :3No he doesn't.
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb242/Sacul_Kamadaka/Noitisnt.jpg

[heroicraptor]

It sure looks similar to me...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It sure looks similar to me...Similar ≠ same.

The skull clamp has four, full legs on both sides with two arm like appendages holding his eyes open.

The Signet has two full legs on each side, two, smaller, horn-like appendages on the top, and two arm like appendages.

[Aggro_zombies]

Similar ≠ same.

The skull clamp has four, full legs on both sides with two arm like appendages holding his eyes open.

The Signet has two full legs on each side, two, smaller, horn-like appendages on the top, and two arm like appendages.
Keep in mind, though, that this art was original made for a Ravnica card that got cut in development. Judging by the armor on his legs (similar to other Dimir figures and the style guide illustrations we've seen) and the signet-like object on his forehead, I'd say he's Dimir.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Maybe it looks slightly different because it was drawn by a different artist.

I'm sorry, that clearly is meant to be the Dimir signet. They even say they had the art leftover from Ravnica.

[The Rack]

It kinda looks like Dimir Guildmage doesn't have any hands, or perhaps the body beneath DImir Cutpurse?

Oh No 666 post!

[Mirrislegend]

It is definitely not the Dimir signet in the current art. However, I think it probably was the Dimir signet originally. From MaRo's article yesterday:

"This card's art, by Magic Art Director Jeremy Jarvis, was done long ago for Ravnica, before Jeremy even worked for Wizards. The art never got used because the card it was meant for got killed in development."

[Peter_Rotten]

It kinda looks like Dimir Guildmage doesn't have any hands, or perhaps the body beneath DImir Cutpurse?

Oh No 666 post!

Wow. You're back to counting posts? Hrmph.

[Damnosus]

It kinda looks like Dimir Guildmage doesn't have any hands, or perhaps the body beneath DImir Cutpurse?

Oh No 666 post!

666 is actually not a number to worry about: the Devil's number is 616. So thankfully you have already crossed that threshold :laugh:

As for the Ad Nauseam, I will agree it has some awesome art. My question is, how do you guys measure the worth of cards before they really have a price. I mean I have friends who are valuing things really high just because certain websites are. I feel however that most of these cards will drop a significant amount. So how do you folks go about trading these things (especially for the crummier epic rares?).

[Skeggi]

666 is actually not a number to worry about: the Devil's number is 616. So thankfully you have already crossed that threshold :laugh:

As for the Ad Nauseam, I will agree it has some awesome art. My question is, how do you guys measure the worth of cards before they really have a price. I mean I have friends who are valuing things really high just because certain websites are. I feel however that most of these cards will drop a significant amount. So how do you folks go about trading these things (especially for the crummier epic rares?).

Yeah, because in the Bible it says 616, not 666, everyone just misread :tongue:

Anyway, first off, you should ask yourself if it's viable in Standard. That format basically sets the prices of new cards. It doesn't really matter if the card is viable in Legacy. If the card is viable in Legacy, there's a 95% chance the card is also viable in Standard. After that it's just guesswork. I've seen sites place Sarkhan Vol highest (about 30-35 Euros), followed by Tezzeret (about 25-28 Euros), after that it's Elspeth (about 15 Euros). Remarkably, Ad Nauseam strands at about 5 Euros. Fortunately stores are often wrong :wink:

[Mirrislegend]

I scooped up a playset of Knight of the White Orchid at 6 bucks a piece. It's gonna be a 10$ card, easily. That aside, I'm also having trouble getting a feel for Shards values. I think one just has to wait until street release to get a good idea of that.

[Damnosus]

Yeah, because in the Bible it says 616, not 666, everyone just misread :tongue:


It really depends on how you want to read it: the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament reads 616. So until there is proof exists that 666 is older, 616 is the number of the beast. I will agree though that this is a debated topic.

How are you guys trading non-planeswalker epic rares? I mean should they be considered more valuable than a normal rare of equal ability?

[Aggro_zombies]

It really depends on how you want to read it: the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament reads 616. So until there is proof exists that 666 is older, 616 is the number of the beast. I will agree though that this is a debated topic.

How are you guys trading non-planeswalker epic rares? I mean should they be considered more valuable than a normal rare of equal ability?
Most of them are pretty shitty, but I did manage to dupe a guy into trading his Ethersworn Canonist for my Lich's Mirror.

I was really happy about that.

[Media314r8]

If four wastelands with no notable recursion strategy are going to scare you enough not to splash excess cards from other colors and subsequently not need their new duals, you're a complete pansy.

Wasteland + Crucible, proven in legacy prison decks, seems pretty swell in 5C XXYYZZZ casting cost T2, as crucible is in Xth.

[Grollub]

If four wastelands with no notable recursion strategy are going to scare you enough not to splash excess cards from other colors and subsequently not need their new duals, you're a complete pansy.

Sped Red did it mighty fine back in the days...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Am I the only one utterly unimpressed by Knights of the White Orchid? I guess I've just been burnt by Land Tax effects before, but seriously? I don't think it's worth running a Grizzly Bear.

[Phantom]

Am I the only one utterly unimpressed by Knights of the White Orchid? I guess I've just been burnt by Land Tax effects before, but seriously? I don't think it's worth running a Grizzly Bear.

Don't be so hard on the poor fella. After all, Grizzly Bears never had first strike, which combos nicely with all the white Exalted creatures in Shards. Not that he's Weathered Wayfarer or anything...

[Noman Peopled]

Am I the only one utterly unimpressed by Knights of the White Orchid? I guess I've just been burnt by Land Tax effects before, but seriously? I don't think it's worth running a Grizzly Bear.
No you are not. It may be good in Standard but I wouldn't get out of my way to get them even there. It'll accelerate you in a meaningfuly manner only about half the time so I guess the question is how often its lack of non-first-strike abilities will be equally relevant.
It does help a bit against Wrath, but only if you wouldn't have dealt more damage with another critter (and this is provided you have another one-drop that can get in t3 after having been played t2 or a combination of cards amounting to a five-drop for post-Wrath and you have to be going second).
Also, since you can't drop it t2 consistently even if the ability's condition is satisfied, your deck still has to be built to work without it, lessening the impact it'll likely have (kinda like Affinity built around the new Medallion guy will be a bad version of Affinity if you don't happen to draw one early or at least have other mitigating synergies).

Solid card for Standard as a 2/2 first strike without Mongeese/Goyfs/Watchwolfs/Kirds/ etc is a force to be reckoned with but too much has to go right for it to make a really eyebrow-raising impact. Needless to say, the bar in Legacy is higher and we've got Daze as well as creatures that render 2/2 without game-altering effects mostly obsolete. First strike is relevant only against some off-beat one-drops and utility bears (Mage, Teeg, etc).



@ Wasteland: I would love to see this reprinted and have all the newbies scream in panic. There are a few problems associated with Wasteland that I think will prevent the card from being reprinted anytime soon, most notably that it would be an auto-include in pretty much everything non-combo barring some other equally powerful land and color hungry bases.
Although it would be very interesting to see Wasteland in a Standard with Onslaught-quality fetchlands - which would be a very elegant solution to several problems the card may else imply.

[TrialByFire]

Wasteland might also fix Extended which is looking to be Combo vs. Affinity vs. Zoo, given its better than Type 2 5C manabases

[Noman Peopled]

Okay, since this is rapidly becoming a thread advocating the reprinting Wastes, I'd like to ask what cards you guys are buying or trading for, or what you would recommend getting and/or testing.

All I got so far is three Ad Nauseams and some commons and uncommons because Tezzeret, Elspeth, and others are so freaking expensive right now. Here's my list:


Battlegrace Angel
- essentially a Stax card. I'm not buying it just to test it. Has some advantages and disadvantages vis-à-vis Exalted, maybe a split could work, but the difference won't be that big in the end, imo. Still, it's cheaper than Exalted (but also next to useless outside Stax).

Dispeller's Capsule
- I got one for Trinket Mage/Ruins shenanigans. I'm sceptical though, since half the time Explosives will be just as expensive.

Elspeth
- another one for Stax. I'd love to test it but for that price, I chose to complete my set of Chrome Moxen instead. It blocks that one big dumb creature that often gets through Ghostly Prison, keeps Smokestack alive without Crucible (or on two counters). It's kinda meh on attack but can at least pump Factories and Magi before that. And if any Legacy deck can pull off the last ability, Stax it's.

Ethersworn Canonist
- suffers from Teeg syndrome, but rightly so, I think. If I were an Affinity player, I'd be getting a playset since they're not likely to drop in price anytime soon. If I had to design a non-broken combo hoser for Affinity, Canonist would be very close (except blue or black :P ).

Tezzeret
- Hard to judge but if they cost less than a kidney I'd be getting some. There's so much you can combine it with that the biggest problem imo is not to overload the deck with cuteness. It gives any deck with artifacts an alternative win (or at least an Overrun), untaps Factories for additional pump or defense, gets singletons and artifact lands (or that one Bloom so you won't get caught with your trousers down). Shuffling every turn you have nothing better to do with Top in play is also nice. Also, it gives any slow blue deck the ability to combo out with Grindstone/Painter with a ridiculously low amount of slots.

Executioner's Capsule
- apart from the obvious Ruins/Trinket synergies, I wouldn't feel too rogue-ish including two two four of these in Affinity in the right metagame. Goyf > Enforcer and Kataki is always a possibility. Hell, it kills Dreadnoughts.

Wild Nacatl
- as playable as Zoo is. Or GoyfSligh/w. Or Boros/g. Whatever.

Rhox War Monk
- can actually race a Goyf that's smaller than 6/7 on its own, provided you have a life cushion, gains life while blocking random dorks, pitches for FoW and is another 3CC spell for CBalance. It's no Enforcer, can't block Piledriver and dies to red Blasts but still worth testing, imo.

Relic of Progenitus
- duh. Cheap, recurrable, maindeckable, etc.



Thoughts?
What cards did I miss?

[Aggro_zombies]

Relic of Progenitus
- duh. Cheap, recurrable, maindeckable, etc.
If by "recurrable," you mean it can tap every turn to remove a card, then yes. Otherwise, you may wish to RTFC.

[Noman Peopled]

If by "recurrable," you mean it can tap every turn to remove a card, then yes. Otherwise, you may wish to RTFC.
Hah! You know, I could've told you what the card does pretty much verbatim but I still made that mistake. Got too caught up with all the other recurrable cards. Thx.

[undone]

Actualy relic tech is

Sac relic, acadamy ruins it in responce.

2U Crypt the yards, return this to hands.

Seems good. :D

[Jaynel]

Actualy relic tech is

Sac relic, acadamy ruins it in responce.

2U Crypt the yards, return this to hands.

Seems good. :D

Actually, you're gonna need a Pull from Eternity because Relic removes itself from the game as part of the activation cost. So it's 3U if you have Pull from Eternity Imprinted on an Isochron Scepter or just 1WU if you don't.