[Brainstorming] Using Hellkite Overlord

[raharu]

Obviously this is going to take some abstract deck-building skills, but hopefully it'll work out well, although in a format rife with Blood Moon Effects it'll suffer from the format a bit (more on that later).

There are a few different paths to attacking this project, one of which is the Cloudpost/ big, fast mana road, that may look something like this:

Mana:28
Chrome Mox x4
Birds of Paradise x4
----------------
Cloudpost x4
Bloodstained Mire x4
Wooded Foothills x4
Tiaga x4
Badlands x4

Spells: 18
Thoughtseize x4
Cabal Therapy x3
Lightning Bolt x4
Terminate x4
Phyrexian Arena x3

Creatures: 12
Tarmogoyf x4
Vexing Susher x3
Spiritmonger x3-2
Hellkite Overlord x2-3

Nowhere near ideal, but it's a concept, and one that's no-where near finished.

Another is simply fitting it into the Dragonstorm combo kill, but that's rather dull.

Maybe something like a big mana/ rgb The Rock/ Truffle Shuffle/ Sligh(?) hybrid? One never knows.

[MTG Guru]

I did a search for Hellkite Overlord at SCG.com and nothing came up? Is this card from Shards of Alara? What does it do?

As for the deck, consider Lotus Bloom.

[Skeggi]

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4669/hellkiteoverlordsu8.jpg

You want to actually hard cast this sucker? He seems more viable in some reanimate deck.

[Kadaj]

He seems like he would be good in dedicated board control. He's almost never going to be outclassed as a creature, that much is obvious, and with the right combination of cards (stuff like Krosan Tusker, Birds, whathaveyou) hitting eight mana to play him shouldn't be that impossible.

[MTG Guru]

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4669/hellkiteoverlordsu8.jpg

You want to actually hard cast this sucker? He seems more viable in some reanimate deck.

Is he going to be a regular or mythic rare, do you know?

[Skeggi]

I think a regular one. I think the mythic rares will be the planeswalkers. But that's merely speculation: only Wizard's development team knows...

[kicks_422]

It sure seems mythic to me.

Why not try Dragonstorm? Dragonstorm for 2 with leftover mana is lethal, compared to four for Bogardan Hellkites. The lower storm count needed lets you smooth out the buildup over a couple of turns, rather than require you to go off in a single turn like traditional storm decks.

[MTG Guru]

Here's a Dragonstorm list I've been testing.

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
2 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
1 [ON] Rorix Bladewing
4 [P2] Brimstone Dragon
1 [PLC] Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [GP] Wild Cantor

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [7E] Duress
4 [TSB] Dragonstorm
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TSP] Lotus Bloom

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [ON] Smother
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree

I'd probably go, -1 Rorix, -1 Akroma, -1 Brimstone Dragon, +3 Hellkite Overlord. I don't want to cut the Brimstones to less than 3 since they're easier to hardcast.

[Shtriga]

why aren't you playing bogardan hellkites?

[Shtriga]

is that from shards of alara? the expansion symbol is different from the one I knew. or maybe mythic rares have a different symbol?

[MTG Guru]

why aren't you playing bogardan hellkites?

Becuase I have a playset of Brimstone Dragon and I wanted to put them to use. Plus Dragonstorm for 3 isn't instantly lethal with Bogardan Hellkite, while it usually is with Brimstone Dragon. I don't like Hellkite. I rather play something that deals more damage and can't be stifled. 6 > 5.

[kidsmokin]

is that from shards of alara? the expansion symbol is different from the one I knew. or maybe mythic rares have a different symbol?
It's from the special Dragons set coming out. What is this "mythic rare" deal? I've never heard of it....?

Bogardan Hellkite is why Dragonstorm is good. If you're running Dstorm, run Hellkite. 4 of. No choice.

@MTG Guru: Tinder Wall could be a nice card...you get RR for G, I think.

[MTG Guru]

It's from the special Dragons set coming out. What is this "mythic rare" deal? I've never heard of it....?

Bogardan Hellkite is why Dragonstorm is good. If you're running Dstorm, run Hellkite. 4 of. No choice.

@MTG Guru: Tinder Wall could be a nice card...you get RR for G, I think.

I don't see a major difference between Brimstone Dragon and Bogardan Hellkite. I like Brimstone Dragon better becuase it deals more damage. Plus most of the time dealing damage to creatures doesn't matter as much, Hellkite can be Stifled and it takes more Hellkites to afflict lethal damage. I'm sticking with Brimstone Dragon, that's my preference.

@Tinder Wall - It's cute, but I prefer the color fixing of Wild Cantor.

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

Hellkite can be Stifled

Why would your opponent waste a Stifle on the Hellkite? That Stifle would have let you waste a bunch of spells, cast Dragonstorm and then let you get 1 copy of Hellkite.

[Joe_C]

for his CC and ability, isnt Akroma, Angel of Fury just a better creature? If you arent making dragonstorm.... This guy can be STP'd which would suck after a large mana investment

[raharu]

for his CC and ability, isn't Akroma, Angel of Fury just a better creature? If you arent making dragonstorm.... This guy can be STP'd which would suck after a large mana investment
True, but Akroma, Angel of Fury dies to randomness like Terminate, Terror, Lethal Damage, and doesn't regenerate, or have haste, and is a smaller body. I presume it's a matter of personal Choice?

Does anyone have a Cloudpost/ Urzatron shell that would be helpful, or a suggestion for the manabase?

Overlord is going to be a mythic rare, and the reason he doesn't have the [ALA] expansion symbol in the preview is because the spoiled card is from the From the Vault: Dragons (or something like that) 15 card boxed set. Mmmmm, 15 foil dragons... Yeah, now watch the set be $30 or something stupid like that.


Bogardan Hellkite is why Dragonstorm is good. If you're running Dstorm, run Hellkite. 4 of. No choice.

Brimstone makes storm of 3 lethal. Hellkite does not.

[AngryTroll]

From the Vault: Dragons (or something like that) 15 card boxed set. Mmmmm, 15 foil dragons... Yeah, now watch the set be $30 or something stupid like that.



Release Date: August 29th 2008
MSRP: $34.99

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/1589

[rleader]

$30 isn't a bad price at all if you consider what it would cost to buy them on the secondary market at current prices. Though I think the real price was like $35. I'm sure SCG and Coolstuffinc. will undercut by the standard 25% off list though.


True, but Akroma, Angel of Fury dies to randomness like Terminate, Terror, Lethal Damage, and doesn't regenerate, or have haste, and is a smaller body. I presume it's a matter of personal Choice?

Which is why Bogardan Hellkite is the best dragon ever: even if it gets swords'd on the spot, it still does five damage. That's why it's the linchpin of the reanimator deck, which is way more consistent than dragonstorm will ever be (heck, the list below doesn't have draw or tutors, even crappy ones like Grozoth: what happens when your Dstorms get shuffled to the lower half of your deck, which can happen fairly easily if you're not cheat-shuffling?). Or more consistent than Buried Alive + Living End.

After all, reanimator can work just fine on two mana in play and have a dragon in play by turn two. Which is why Hellkite Overlord will probably only see play in that deck, and probably only in a thresh-deprived meta (as SSS resiliance is too much to pass up vs. decks with white).

[raharu]

Eh, I guess that's reasonable... Hellkite itself is most likely going to be stupidly expensive, and Kokusho is 16 by it's lonesome... I still don't like it >.>

[xsockmonkeyx]

Brimstone makes storm of 3 lethal. Hellkite does not.

Actually, storm count=2 + Dragonstorm does it. Find a way to make the mana to cast Dragonstorm with storm count = 2 and then you have an argument (hint: you can't. well, you can it's just very unlikely). Otherwise you're trading 1 extra slot in your deck for an inferior win con.

[MTG Guru]

$30 isn't a bad price at all if you consider what it would cost to buy them on the secondary market at current prices. Though I think the real price was like $35. I'm sure SCG and Coolstuffinc. will undercut by the standard 25% off list though.



Which is why Bogardan Hellkite is the best dragon ever: even if it gets swords'd on the spot, it still does five damage. That's why it's the linchpin of the reanimator deck, which is way more consistent than dragonstorm will ever be (heck, the list below doesn't have draw or tutors, even crappy ones like Grozoth: what happens when your Dstorms get shuffled to the lower half of your deck, which can happen fairly easily if you're not cheat-shuffling?). Or more consistent than Buried Alive + Living End.

After all, reanimator can work just fine on two mana in play and have a dragon in play by turn two. Which is why Hellkite Overlord will probably only see play in that deck, and probably only in a thresh-deprived meta (as SSS resiliance is too much to pass up vs. decks with white).

The list doesn't need draw. I play 12 Duress effects and sculpt my hand while obliterating my opponent's hand. If you think it needs more draw, what would you cut and what do you suggest?


Brimstone makes storm of 3 lethal. Hellkite does not.

@Raharu - Yes. that is why I prefer Brimstone Dragon, which I also stated myself numerous times in this thread.

EDIT: if Hellkite Overlord is a mythic rare, we're all in trouble...

[raharu]

Actually, storm count=2 + Dragonstorm does it. Find a way to make the mana to cast Dragonstorm with storm count = 2 and then you have an argument (hint: you can't. well, you can it's just very unlikely). Otherwise you're trading 1 extra slot in your deck for an inferior win con.

Is that to say that Bogardan is inferior or that Brimstone is?


EDIT: if Hellkite Overlord is a mythic rare, we're all in trouble...

How so?

Also, why don't you play Rite of Flame?

[MTG Guru]

How so?


Between casual and competitive players alike, the card should be pretty hard to get ahold of, if mythic. I'm talking pricewise.


Also, why don't you play Rite of Flame?

No room. Rite being inferior to both Dark Ritual and Seething Song, I can't really cut anything for it. I think I tested it at some point and it got the axe, eventually.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Is that to say that Bogardan is inferior or that Brimstone is?

Bogardan>Brimstone. Sorry for the ambiguity.

[MTG Guru]

Bogardan>Brimstone. Sorry for the ambiguity.


Bogardan Hellkite might be better, but 4 Hellkites just isn't enough. In most cases you would probably need to hardcast one to get rid of opposing armies. That's why I suggest running 2 additional dragons just in case this scenario occured during gameplay.

[Roman Candle]

I've been trying to get Dragonstorm to work for a gawdawful amount of time. The best way to do it, I think, is with Quicken. That way, you can wait to combo out like Solidarity does and kill with Bogardans with lethal damage on the stack. But that still requires Storm of 3-4, and even with the spells the opponent plays on their turn, that's not easy. With Overlord, you can go endstep, Quicken, Dragonstorm and pump them for the swing on your next turn. It's still rough, but Overlord gives a huge boost to the deck.

I think the best shell for Overlord is a Truffle Shuffle build with Red over White, so that you can play Destructive Flow.

[rleader]

I'm not sure Hellkite Overlord will ever be more than a $3 card, $6 if mythic, and the price will be further dilluted by the dragon pack copies. Kokushu is worth what it is because of what it does in multiplayer. Overlord does absolutely *nothing* of that magnitude in a casual capacity. So unless it starts being played in makeshift mannequin decks after akroma of wrath rotates out, it could theoretically end up being a dollar rare like knollspine dragon. Unless a STD deck really takes advantage of haste on Overlord, it could be a pure timmy card.

I think the dragonstorm lists are stupid (stupid fun, but still stupid in a competitive sense), but if you're gonna do it, I'd probably sneak bloodmoons into the maindeck and adjust things accordingly.


Rite being inferior to both Dark Ritual and Seething Song, I can't really cut anything for it. I think I tested it at some point and it got the axe, eventually.

rite of flame is better than simian spirit guide, which doesn't count towards storm and has no additional benefit in multiple copies. What corner case makes you want ssg? Fighting daze? Lotus petal seems superior to Cantor, too: if you're using him just to flash back cabal therapy, I'm not sure he's worth it.



I play 12 Duress effects and sculpt my hand while obliterating my opponent's hand.

One for one isn't oblitteration. It's especially not oblitteration at sorcery speed.

Sculpt doesn't mean what you seem to think it means either. Sculpt means actively doing something, not sitting on your ass hoping for one of four cards out of 60 to show up.

Duress sucks once they topdeck a counterbalance as one mana spells are guaranteed countered (just flip top back to the library). And if you are 10+ turns from drawing a dragonstorm, you're not gonna race goyf.

[Illissius]

I'm telling you, if this guy sees any use it's going to be with Natural Order.

He's far less resilient as a win condition for Dragonstorm than Hellkites are. You can't Swords, Snuff, or Maze a CIP ability.

[MTG Guru]

I'm telling you, if this guy sees any use it's going to be with Natural Order.

He's far less resilient as a win condition for Dragonstorm than Hellkites are. You can't Swords, Snuff, or Maze a CIP ability.

Is there a Natural Order thread? I want to post a list I just came up with. You inspired me. :smile:

[raharu]

I'm telling you, if this guy sees any use it's going to be with Natural Order.

He's far less resilient as a win condition for Dragonstorm than Hellkites are. You can't Swords, Snuff, or Maze a CIP ability.
Can't snuff a Black creature, but I most certaintly agree that Dragonstorm isn't the shell for it. I don't think Natural Order is fitting either, though.

I'm thinking something like a Cloudpost-Vesuva shell, with some Birds thrown in. Something like this?:

Cloudpost x4
Vesuva x4
Wooded Foothills x3
Bloodstained Mire x3
Badlands x4
Tiaga x4

Birds of Paradise x4

with 34 open slots to work with.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Just throwing this out there; Changeling Berserker is just as good as the second Bogardan Hellkite.

[rufus]

Just throwing this out there; Changeling Berserker is just as good as the second Bogardan Hellkite.

I'd say different. Hellkite is a better topdeck if you don't have anything on the board.

In addition to Natural Order, and Dragonstorm, there's also Tooth and Nail, Proteus Staff, and reanimators such as Dread Return in Ichorid combo.

[asi]

In addition to Natural Order, and Dragonstorm, there's also Tooth and Nail, Proteus Staff, and reanimators such as Dread Return in Ichorid combo.


It's also black, meaning it can be removed for Ichorid recursion, so it will probably replace Akroma in builds that run her.

[SuckerPunch]

Other than Dragon Storm and possibly Reanimator players, why are people excited about this guy?

Why would anyone ever want to waste 8 mana to hardcast him.

You realize that he is either going to be Forced, Counterspelled, or StPed every single time don't you? Talk about a tempo loss.

Really, I don't see why anyone would crap all over their manabase to support hardcasting a 8cc three color dragon that takes three turns to win the game.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It's because people like cool things. When people like something, they tend to want to make want to make a deck around it. Ergo, cool things make decks.

[SuckerPunch]

Okay, fine. I give in.

But if you want to abuse him though, port dragon storm over to legacy. Yes I know that plenty of others said this too. Who cares if Bogardan is better.

Legacy has enough accleration to support dragon storm, and storm gets around FoW, and StP can only take out one of these guys, not four of them, so it would actually be a viable win condition.


P.S: I don't know if people said this already. But no, it is NOT a mythic rare. From my understanding, all the mythic rares have a purple rhombus instead of the set symbol. This card doesn't as you can see from the art.

[Nihil Credo]

Legacy has enough accleration to support dragon storm, and storm gets around FoW

The #1 problem with classic Dragonstorm in Legacy is that this isn't actually true. It's very very difficult to assemble a turn in which you can ramp up to nine mana even after the opponent counters one of your mana acceleration pieces.

Because of that I think that, if Dragonstorm is ever to see serious play in Legacy, it will have to divorce itself from Seething Song and friends. Alternative options that don't get raped by FoW could be Spinerock Knoll in a Sligh shell, or artifact mana acceleration a la Wildfire (with Moxes, Manamorphose, or Suspend cards providing the necessary 1-2 Storm count boosts to make it worth the investment).

[Opterown]

Actually, Hellkite Overlord is a mythic rare.

from:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=8177


And it also gave us a really good opportunity to preview Shards of Alara, and Hellkite Overlord., which will be a mythic rare.

[rleader]

all the mythic rares have a purple rhombus instead of the set symbol.

And furthermore, the stupid rhombus is the shards of alara set symbol. And mythics are orange.

[SuckerPunch]

Oops, I guess I got it switched around then.

RE: Dragon Storm. I guess I'll revise my thesis to say that this card will definately not see the light of day in any competitive legacy deck for atleast a few years. :p

[kidsmokin]

I think Dstorm can work, but more akin to Chapin's Worlds deck from Standard, relying on burn to flip over a Dstorm via Spinerock Knoll more than the conventional "tutor + mana accel" plan. It seems like you can concievably fit it in the shell of a burn deck. I'm actually planning on trying to adapt it to Legacy, though I doubt it'll even hit Tier 2, much less Tier 1.5...but the nice thing about Legacy is you can totally be playing some kind of random jank and still own the meta because no one has seen the deck. So it can work...once in a while.

[raharu]

: \






Flow Rock hoooo... That or a rediculious Cloudpost-Vesuva rbg rock shell... wow this is a stupid resource and time sink... but it'll be fun :smile:

[kicks_422]

Because of that I think that, if Dragonstorm is ever to see serious play in Legacy, it will have to divorce itself from Seething Song and friends.

Dragonstorm with Hellkite Overlords lets you ramp up your mana over a few turns, because putting 2 Overlords into play is potentially lethal. Like you said, artifact acceleration or even land acceleration (Kodama's Reach? Yay!) should be the direction that Dragonstorm follows. Potentially BGR, with black for protection and removal, G for land accel and Deed, and R for the Dragonstorm. Gives you the option of hardcasting Overlord as well.

[raharu]

Spiritmonger.

[kidsmokin]

// Lands
4 [LRW] Spinerock Knoll
4 [TSP] Fungal Reaches
12 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
4 [TSP] Molten Slagheap

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite

// Spells
3 [TSP] Grapeshot
3 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [4E] Lightning Bolt
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [FUT] Pyromancer's Swath
4 [TSP] Lotus Bloom
4 [SC] Dragonstorm

Most of them end up with Spinerock Knolls flipping up either Hellkite or Dstorm...typically you want to structure it so that if you have Dstorm under the Knoll you want to time your burn so you can flip it over, obviously. If you don't see it, you still have the chance to hit 9 mana with the Blooms and the few Rites, but with all the mana you can really just play Pyromancer's Swath and go all out burn, basically all the burn becomes a lot better. It works out either way because you want to basically wait the two-three turns and then go nuts. If it's really not working well...just burn for a bit, I suppose. Magma Jet is very useful in this regard, Scrying really helps set up the turn, and, well, burns.

I don't take any credit for it, basically I took Chapin's list and traded the not good burn for good burn. I'll trim it later, but Knoll flipping a Dstorm is awesome. As of now the storage lands are underwhelming, as I expected...the best thing is that you really don't have to Dstorm for lethal, even with one or two you're fine because you can usually set up some burn to clean up if your burn + Dstorm doesn't do it.

I suppose Hellkite Overlord off a Knoll would be sweet too.

[MTG Guru]

Is Fungal Reaches and Molten Slagheap better than Sandstone Needle and Dwarven Ruins? Doesn't look too solid to me, especially when they can hit you with a Wasteland when tapped out losing all of the mana you invested in it.

[kidsmokin]

Is Fungal Reaches and Molten Slagheap better than Sandstone Needle and Dwarven Ruins? Doesn't look too solid to me, especially when they can hit you with a Wasteland when tapped out losing all of the mana you invested in it.

Ah, I knew there were better lands, just couldn't remember the names. I've been really just goldfishing and it's been really inconsistent, the worst thing is where the best thing Knoll hits is like...Magma Jet. Half (well, probably around 60%) the time the deck works as intended and the other time I end up playing a terrible burn deck. I'm thoroughly interested in making this Dstorm like, maybe even a bit competitive so maybe it deserves its own thread...

[MTG Guru]

Ah, I knew there were better lands, just couldn't remember the names. I've been really just goldfishing and it's been really inconsistent, the worst thing is where the best thing Knoll hits is like...Magma Jet. Half (well, probably around 60%) the time the deck works as intended and the other time I end up playing a terrible burn deck. I'm thoroughly interested in making this Dstorm like, maybe even a bit competitive so maybe it deserves its own thread...

Have you thought of splashing blue for Brainstorm and Ponder so that you can get better Knoll "hits"? And if someone brings up Force of Will I'm going to punch them in the nuts. Splashing blue for brainstorm is perfectly fine.

[rufus]

It seems like free damage along the lines of Fireblast and Cave-In wants consideration in any deck that's playing Spinerock Knoll. That said, I also expect that Burn + Knoll is to generally too slow and fragile for legacy.

[Willoe]

Play it using another hideaway land?

Windbrisk Heights in BGRw aggro?

Splash W for Windbrisk and STP, then Confidant (even though it hurts with Hellkite Overlord), Tarmogoyf, some burn, etc.

[rufus]

Play it using another hideaway land?


Honestly I think that the best potential for the Hellkite Overlord is as a Dread Return target in Ichorid Combo, or some other means of reanimating it. Boggarden Hellkites or Koshuko are probably better options for Dragonstorm.

[Grollub]

It might be fun in a Secret Force spin-off, as a way to steal random wins.

[MTG Guru]

I got an idea. Why not use Defense of the Heart to get out two Hellkite Overlords? I have a sample list that's untested but I have to wait until Shards of Alara actually comes out for me to test the idea.