How Wizards Can Make Bad Cards Playable

[MTG Guru]

I've had this idea for quite sometime. I figured why not Wizards print focused, card specific cards that interact with other cards from older sets. There seems to be a plethora of bad cards that can be made playable if, for example, someone printed a sorcery that read, "2G - Search your library for Canopy Dragon and put it into play. Then shuffle your library." I know that seems a little overpowered but it's just an example. This would make the game alot more interesting from the players perspective and alot more fun for people that play the game. I think that they should start printing cards that interact with older sets, in this very manner. they already printed cards like the Breathstealer, Urborg Panther, Spirit of the Night combo, as well as many others, so why not "mix it up" for people and start doing this across all sets? Let me know your thoughts on this proposal and if you think it's the right idea, or not.

[Skeggi]

Flavour-wise they just missed their chance with the Timespiral block.

[quicksilver]

Their main focus when designing a new set is how it drafts. Cards that refer to specific cards that arn't in print would be terrible in draft.

"2G - Search your library for Canopy Dragon and put it into play. Then shuffle your library."
The only way they would ever even think about doing a card liek this is if Canopy Dragon was in the same set this was printed in (or block at the very worst). Which defeats your purpose of interacting wirth old cards.

The only way somehting like this would be possible is if the card is useful in general and then jsut happens to be really good with an old card. (For example painter's servant makes grindstone good). So far all occurences of this have been coincidence and I don't think they ever purposly had any old card (pre extended) in mind when designing a new card.

[MTG Guru]

Do you think they would ever print a set that's not meant to be drafted? Like a special edition set or something along those lines.

[Nightmare]

Do you think they would ever print a set that's not meant to be drafted? Like a special edition set or something along those lines.

Unlikely.

[MTG Guru]

Unlikely.

How about promo cards! That would be ingenius if they made promo cards that fall under the "card specific combo" lines. Just like they did with Mana Crypt, Giant Badger, and Nathalian Dragon (spelling?). I could be on to something...

[Nihil Credo]

Do you think they would ever print a set that's not meant to be drafted? Like a special edition set or something along those lines.
Man, I fucking wish. Having to fill each set with lots of redundant commons and uncommons for smooth Limited play is a terrible burden.

Unfortunately, draft and Sealed are huge cash cows for Wizards, so a Constructed-only set doesn't really fit into their plans.

Were it not for that, Coldsnap would have been the perfect opportunity for it; instead, we got one of the worst Limited formats in history.

[kicks_422]

They already do that (the topic title). I don't know if it's intended, but there are a lot of bad cards which became good in a blink of an eye.

Off the top of my head: Ichorid (Dredge mechanic), Flash (with Protean Hulk), Terravore (Life from the Loam), Grindstone (Painter's Servant), Chain of Plasma (Swans), etc.

[MTG Guru]

They already do that (the topic title). I don't know if it's intended, but there are a lot of bad cards which became good in a blink of an eye.

Off the top of my head: Ichorid (Dredge mechanic), Flash (with Protean Hulk), Terravore (Life from the Loam), Grindstone (Painter's Servant), Chain of Plasma (Swans), etc.

The title is misleading. I should of titled it, "Should they make Card Specific Combos", which is what I was trying to discuss in the first place.

[DeathwingZERO]

No.

I mean realistically, they wouldn't be able to pull it off anyway for reasons Quicksilver already cited. They look at how cards would interact with things from the past, but that's not a really big thing to look at.

And card specific combos are very, very narrow. The Urborg -> Breathstealer -> Feral Shadow? -> Spirit of the Night was cool, but very few people liked it because of it requiring so much to work. And when they tried it again with the "machines", it just downright failed.

So I'd say don't hold your breath on it, as they don't really have a reason for it. Just be happy random cards make old cards playable again, as that's pretty much the only coincidences we have to work with.

[Atwa]

So I'd say don't hold your breath on it, as they don't really have a reason for it. Just be happy random cards make old cards playable again, as that's pretty much the only coincidences we have to work with.

Isn't that just the best fun part about legacy deckbuiling? I hate it when wizards gives me a finished combo and be obvious about it. I have this great potential with every set, since we have more cards for the newer cards to interact with than any other format.

I just love seeking new uses for old card when you combine them with new sets. Wizards should keep printing sets just as they are, I have it when new cards interact way too obvious with older cards.

[DeathwingZERO]

Agreed. Random things like Recruiter/E. Tutor -> Painters -> Grindstone and random dumb funny things like Intuition -> Demigod are just fun to catch. Also, utility recovery with things like Trinket Mage -> Crypt/E.E -> Academy Ruins.

Interaction between blocks is probably at it's finest right now. We're doing things now that are incredibly simple, or complicated, and it's all because there's a ton of synergy already going on. I don't really see a point to mess with the formula of "oops, have fun with this one guys XD" compared to "Oh, we made these things work out like minor inconveniences on their own, but better when combined". It's up to the players to bust open new synergies, not R&D, IMO.

[MTG Guru]

I realize that Wizards prints cards that make obscure and bad cards viable. My whole point of this conversation was to gather thought on how to make maybe Vizzerdrix a good card,for example, which is totally impossible except by printing a card that says, "put Vizzerdrix into play" for an obscenely low mana cost. I hope you guys now fully understand my initial intention in starting this thread. It has nothing to do with discovering new combos.

[Mayk0l]

I can name you at least a couple new players who think Vizzerdrix is absolutely awesome and who couldn't give a crap about Lion's Eye Diamond or Auriok Salvager.

Actually, in an article by MaRo some time ago he looked back at how one person was going on and on about how they could ever even considered printing Lion's Eye Diamond because it was complete crap.
It's one of the most prominent cards in Legacy right now :)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

On the Plane
1U
Instant
Counter target spell. If you control a permanent named Snake Basket, you win the game.


BRILLIANT!

[Zork]

You know what game does this? Yu-Gi-Oh, and that game sucks balls.

What it really ends up doing is giving you really shitty cards that require you to purchase really specific cards to make them work. Then, you end up with sets filled with even more unplayable trash.

I actually tried to help my YugiOh playing brother make a deck, and for about half the cards he owned, they were unplayable solely because he didn't have other specific cards that worked with them.

[Lifeless]

On the Plane
1U
Instant
Counter target spell. If you control a permanent named Snake Basket, you win the game. Any player may reveal Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir from their hand to counter On the Plane.


BRILLIANT!

Fixed

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Teferi's already marginally playable. Make it Hystrodon.

Now, sanctioning MYOS tournaments would be a brilliant way to make more cards viable while keeping the price of select older cards down.

[rufus]

In some sense they do stuff like that with, for example, the tribal mechanics. A number of the cards they put out are just chaff though. In principle, Canopy Dragon really isn't that bad a card to pull up with Dragonstorm, for example. If there weren't a bunch of other better dragons, or better green creatures to pull up with Natural Order, or better creatures to pull up with Tooth and Nail...

[Lifeless]

Teferi's already marginally playable. Make it Hystrodon.

Hystrodon isn't a black guy. I think we can agree on Sidar Jibari?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How did I miss the reference to my own joke? Make it Sphere of Protection: White.

[Anusien]

Don't people already complain about Wizards making your decks for you?

Anyway, they'd much rather do this in a subtle way with a cool interaction (like Swans) than something stupid and obvious.

[Lifeless]

I agree that one of the aspects of Magic that differentiates it from other CCGs is the subtlety in interaction. While advanced players can recognize when cards have synergy or create combos, new players have to develop some knowledge to become familiar with every possible interaction. This is opposed to the previously mentioned Yu Gi Oh, where many interactions are specific. In a senses, by creating a card to utilize another specific card, you create 2 objectively bad cards. This is exactly what Magic should be trying to avoid. Now, I think having lame ducks in the rare slot is a dick move. Every rare should appeal to someone (casual/serious/sealed) if you really want packs to sell better.

[MTG Guru]

I agree that one of the aspects of Magic that differentiates it from other CCGs is the subtlety in interaction. While advanced players can recognize when cards have synergy or create combos, new players have to develop some knowledge to become familiar with every possible interaction. This is opposed to the previously mentioned Yu Gi Oh, where many interactions are specific. In a senses, by creating a card to utilize another specific card, you create 2 objectively bad cards. This is exactly what Magic should be trying to avoid. Now, I think having lame ducks in the rare slot is a dick move. Every rare should appeal to someone (casual/serious/sealed) if you really want packs to sell better.

That's why I propose the idea of maybe making a Special Edition set that hits the stores as a complete set and not in booster packs. That way, people can buy them exclusively and not have to worry about a random, useless card in a booster pack, that they pull.

[mercenarybdu]

Sets are usually made originally only for Draft followed by droplets of constructed playables here and there. If the set isn't draftable, then the boxes won't sell.

Let's say Kamigawa was not draftable and it was horrible in constructed, then the cost for boxes would be under $30 USD per box or perhaps $20. But since the set had plenty of draftability and some contructed playables, then it would keep some of it's value (at this time $30-$60).

[MTG Guru]

Sets are usually made originally only for Draft followed by droplets of constructed playables here and there. If the set isn't draftable, then the boxes won't sell.

Let's say Kamigawa was not draftable and it was horrible in constructed, then the cost for boxes would be under $30 USD per box or perhaps $20. But since the set had plenty of draftability and some contructed playables, then it would keep some of it's value (at this time $30-$60).

If the Special Edition boxes don't sell I still think it's a worthy social experiment on Wizards behalf. The trick here is to make a low print count so that it appeals to collectors and casual players alike. Then if the set is a hit, they can go ahead and do another one depending on the previous set's success.

[mercenarybdu]

Still the philosophy they are running is what the company does to make quick profits in such a short amount of time.

People view it as Horse shit first, then later they realize where the rest of the best playables are located, they then plow more value into the set until the times change.

[MattH]

Still the philosophy they are running is what the company does to make quick profits in such a short amount of time.

People view it as Horse shit first, then later they realize where the rest of the best playables are located, they then plow more value into the set until the times change.

The hell...?

Wizards plans for Magic to be around for DECADES to come - they want Magic to become one of the 'classic' games, as embedded as Monopoly. They're really really good about planning for the long-term. The idea that they're all about short-term gain is...just wrong.

[DeathwingZERO]

I think he was trying to get at the idea behind releasing sets that provide gains for them in a wave like effect. But the placement of the majority of the profit is all wrong. By the time people realize a late chase rare, Wizards has already raked in it's income from that set, a majority of the time.

At the pre-release/release of a set, they (Wizards) make the most money. This is because they implement a small blackout after they print X pre-orders and Y "after" orders for their distributors and direct buyers. That small blackout gives them the time to see how the demand is (usually incredibly high or average, very little times they've had low demand on a set), then print more accordingly. The initial supply of a set is always where the most money will come in for them, as most stores have to anticipate supplying themselves for roughly 2 months time.

After this, they stop printing all together, in order for the secondary market to pick up on it's own, and keep the collectible aspect in check. If each set only follows the guide of X amount of print runs, then it's fair to say after time those cards will rise in value (in theory), keeping the secondary market and collectors happy.

So yes, they make quick bursts of cash with each release, but make sure that each release is good enough to keep demand for it long enough to last through the block, but not so high that they have to keep printing it to get it back on the shelves. And keeping limited, casual, constructed, AND collectors happy, they've guaranteed themselves a long haul.

[Captain_Morgan]

In some sense they do stuff like that with, for example, the tribal mechanics. A number of the cards they put out are just chaff though. In principle, Canopy Dragon really isn't that bad a card to pull up with Dragonstorm, for example. If there weren't a bunch of other better dragons, or better green creatures to pull up with Natural Order, or better creatures to pull up with Tooth and Nail...


That's the thing, take Rebel for instance. Lin Sivvi, great and a few other new guys added to the mix. Big thumbs up in Nemesis. Prophecy comes around and junk. Time Spiral block introduced a few new ones and 1 in Onslaught.

Kithkin within a few blocks quickly outpaced rebels as a tribe.

Really lame to be honest, it would basically overtime take two things:

1. Rebels as a part of certain creature types to actually make the deck viable.

2. A Mercadian Block 2.0, and to be honest this is about the only one that will ever bring the deck to a decent Tier 2 status.

Merfolk, and a few other tribes are on in the "fair, but better out there" tier. The real downside is they invent new tribes rather than flesh out older ones, and then repeat newer ones that have several hundred like Goblins.