[Deck] Brown Control

[robby]

//NAME:Brown Control

1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
6 Island
4 Maze of Ith

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

2 Null Brooch
4 Ensnaring Bridge

1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Snake Basket

4 Fabricate
4 Cunning Wish


// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Stroke of Genius
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 5 open slots

The basic idea is to get an early moat going via Ensnaring Bridge, or 1 or more Maze of Ith. You'll want to generally mull with 3 or less mana in opening hand. Drop either a Thran Dyamo or Bassalt Monolith, followed up with a Null Brooch. You can use the Fabricates where need be to grab either your bridge, mana or brooch. Mid and Late game use the Fabricates to grab Voltaic Keys which effective work as Sol Rings and copies of Null Brooch. Win via Snakes or Stroke of Genius.

This is a local deck concept from years ago that was ran in type 1 tournies. It was alright in the under powered local tournies of that time. I recently decided to see if it could port to legacy. I have been very suprised how well online testing has gone.

I have managed to beat aggro loam, and thresh variants quite often. I assume this deck would roll over to burn or goblins. I have 5 SB slots open, and a little room to work in the main deck. Crucible is probably going to come out since I have never wanted it over a bridge or brooch.

There is room for improvement on the deck, but it is a blast to play test with if youre board. Let me know your results and suggestions for the burn/gobbo match.

[raharu]

Is there any particular reason to run this over Silver Stax? Also, why not play Epochrasite (spelling) as a win-condition, as it recurs and reduces the amount of things you actually have to Brooch.

[Willoe]

Play another kill condition: Myr Incubator. It's really an oops I win now emergency button.

Null Brooch seems so good, why do you only want two?

You have to play Chalice and Trinisphere. Also, play entirely monobrown or only play blue for fabricate in order to improve this deck.

Here's a sketch:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 Some other 2 mana producing land that I can't think of now

4 Mox Diamond

4 Powder Keg
4 Nevinyrral's Disk?

4 Null Brooch
4 Crucible of Worlds

4 Myr Incubator
4 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

I know this build not might be good, but I'm in a hurry, so I can't write anymore, and if I don't reply now, I will forget to ever get it done :tongue:

See ya!

[raharu]

lolIncubator. I've gotten my ass handed to me more times than I can remember by a friend's old brown control deck running that as a 4-of (ofc this was horrible sub-optimal and I was still playing really bad GG agro). It really is a solid win-condition, so long as you watch EEs and whatnot.

[Willoe]

You've simply got 'em locked down so they can't do anything to your tokens. You'll alpha strike your opponent. In fact, isn't that a pretty awesome kill condition for stax? It gives you the ability to put more soot counters on the stacks, as well as providing a fast kill condition instead of some shabby INSERTSTAXKILLCONDITIONHERE ?

[MTG Guru]

I know this sounds crazy, but Ring of Ma'ruf and Myr's Incubator? :tongue: You can run a bunch of silver artifact bullets that you can fetch with Ring after an Incubator activation. Throw in some Thran Turbines and you have something interesting.

[Nihil Credo]

I know this sounds crazy, but Ring of Ma'ruf and Myr's Incubator? :tongue: You can run a bunch of silver artifact bullets that you can fetch with Ring after an Incubator activation. Throw in some Thran Turbines and you have something interesting.
For that amount of mana, you might as well run Planar Portal.

[Illissius]

A deck with Maze of Ith, Thran Dynamo, and even Null Brooch? Oh my god I love this.

Cunning Wish seems really out of place.

[robby]

For that amount of mana, you might as well run Planar Portal.

Ha, the original did +moxen +b. lotus +tolarian. I replaced the basic function with Fabricate.


A deck with Maze of Ith, Thran Dynamo, and even Null Brooch? Oh my god I love this.

Cunning Wish seems really out of place.

It helps smooth out the the transition from mid-game to late game. Its relevant when you have 5 free mana and doesn't loose any relevance when you have 20 mana. When you begin to reach a high level of available mana, it doesnt help any if you don't have anything to use it on. Wish makes sure you have a power effect to seal the deal on the game when you reach that point.

[Happy Gilmore]

The problem with decks like this is if they lose game one, there is little to no chance of finishing two more games in a set amount of time. I've seen it happen many times.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Orochi Hatchery or Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII may be better then Snake basket. With these, you can continually pump out creatures, even more per turn with Voltalic Key.

EDIT: Nah, too much mana. Use Epochrasite.

[Willoe]

Why would you use any of these token creators, when Myr Incubator wins the game right away? If you absolutely play it for creating chump blocks or fodder to stax, play Nuisance Engine instead.

Or Volrath's token engine aritfact which I can't remember the name of at the moment.

EDIT: Forget about that Volrath's Laboratory. Thought it created 2/2's for just a tap.

[MTG Guru]

The Hive can also be an option as well.

[asi]

Might be a stupid idea, but have you thought about Rings of Brighthearth? Makes infinite mana with Basalt Monolith, and is ok with Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Snake Basket and -if youn run them- fetchlands.

[Wallace]

Why not just play 5/3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3070), it's a Chalice aggro deck that seems to be well developed. This is an older list and has changed, you can use it as a reference.

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [6E] Crystal Vein

// Creatures
4 [u] Juggernaut
4 [AQ] Su-Chi
4 [AL] Phyrexian War Beast (2)
3 [DS] Arcbound Ravager

// Spells
4 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [CHK] Uba Mask
SB: 4 [R] Winter Orb
SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid

[Barsoom]

Lol why not just play all Threshold then? it's a deck to beat and well developed...
The thread was about Brown Control, that nothing has to do with 5/3; only lands and mox are the same, nothing more...
I'm bored of these posts with advertisings to play another deck, and i think i'm not the only one.

[marit]

Why not just play 5/3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3070), it's a Chalice aggro deck that seems to be well developed.
Because the decks have 2 different strategies? And thus, are fit for different metas? The OP's list wants to lock the opponent out and play an almost pure control role, while 5/3 wants to disrupt while beating with fatties.

[Jaynel]

And besides, Dragon Stompy is almost strictly better than 5/3 in the current metagame.

[Julian23]

Null Brooch + Bottled Cloister = t3ch? Just a random thought though...

[MTG Guru]

Null Brooch + Bottled Cloister = t3ch? Just a random thought though...

I think that Arcane Laboratory + Null Brooch would be even more devatasting.

[robby]

Null Brooch + Bottled Cloister = t3ch? Just a random thought though...

Yeah cloister+ensnaring bridge isnt bad either, I tried it for a bit but there wasn't really room for it. I would like to get more draw into the deck though, what would you cut for it?

I think that Arcane Laboratory + Null Brooch would be even more devatasting.

Unlike cloister Lab doesn't do anythning on its own and only has synergy with one card in the deck. Generally once Brooch hits you'll have more than one voltaic key out with a lock anyhow. lab ends up just being win more.


After some more testing I got a chance to play Borros, which I already knew burn would be tough. I was suprised I took game 1. I managed to get a bridge lock then hide behin a Null Brooch with 2 keys and alot of mana. Game 2 and 3 he sided in Shattering Spree AND Disenchant. Yeah, that didn't go over so well. Disenchant/Naturalie/Krosan Grip get sided in often and can either be dealt with via Null Brooch(not grip) or Accademy Ruins, Spree on the other hand is just too devistating.

As I asked in my first post, any suggestion on help with the Burn match up?

[Julian23]

I think that Arcane Laboratory + Null Brooch would be even more devatasting.

Bottled Cloister also shines with Ensnaring Bridge.

/edit: yeah, you just said it^^

[MTG Guru]

Unlike cloister Lab doesn't do anythning on its own and only has synergy with one card in the deck. Generally once Brooch hits you'll have more than one voltaic key out with a lock anyhow. lab ends up just being win more.


How doesn't it "do" something when it shuts combo decks down completely. And it's not win more it's a soft lock. It prevents you're opponent from casting a hand full of threats or draw spells which doesn't seem like "win more" to me more like "win period".

[rleader]

I've never seen Null Brooch before; thanks for posting your ideas here.

[Hanni]

As I asked in my first post, any suggestion on help with the Burn match up?

Chalice of the Void.

[Barsoom]

This is the list i'm testing with these days:

1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Island
4 Maze of Ith

4 Mox Diamond
3 Bottled Cloister

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

4 Null Brooch
4 Ensnaring Bridge

2 Myr Incubator
4 Cursed Scroll

4 Fabricate

My win conditions are Cursed Scroll (really, wonderful with voltaic keys, usually 4 or more damage per turn; it combo with both brooch and cloister, a perfect win condition for this deck), and 2 tutorable copies of the incubator; maybe 4 Factories as an additional kill condition worth here too btw.
Null Brooch is together with Bridge the key card of the deck so 4of is mandatory for me.

Thanks robby for sharing this, it's a very fun deck to play with.

[robby]

This is the list i'm testing with these days:

1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Island
4 Maze of Ith

4 Mox Diamond
3 Bottled Cloister

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

4 Null Brooch
4 Ensnaring Bridge

2 Myr Incubator
4 Cursed Scroll

4 Fabricate

My win conditions are Cursed Scroll (really, wonderful with voltaic keys, usually 4 or more damage per turn; it combo with both brooch and cloister, a perfect win condition for this deck), and 2 tutorable copies of the incubator; maybe 4 Factories as an additional kill condition worth here too btw.
Null Brooch is together with Bridge the key card of the deck so 4of is mandatory for me.

Thanks robby for sharing this, it's a very fun deck to play with.

Glad to see you are enjoying it! Looks like you've foccused the deck more, which I like. Generally I've only wanted to see 1 Brooch, which I would get via the 2 in the deck or Fabricate. After the 1 Brooch was out, Voltaic Key was the card to have (tap a 3 mana artifact, Brooch, Untap Brooch). The games I drew a second Brooch it was often a dead draw becuase I could counter 3 or more times a turn anyhow.

I see you dropped the petal, which probably takes away from the explosive first hands, but it looks like you are making up for it with a more consistend mid-game. The only other thing I think may suffer is the fact with the petals you can support just about any color SB card.

I've recently been trying Crystal Vein to allow for the potential explosive first turn if you have it, or it can just be used as a colorless land beyond that. I also dropped wastelands and crucible from my list, it just didn't need that type of a lock, so I agree with that choice.

I like Crused Scroll don't know why I didn't think of it, but I dont see how it combos with Cloister, if anything Cloister hurts it, unless I am missing something. I like it either way though.

[MTG Guru]

You run blue and no Chalice of the Void, why isn't Brainstorm in either of your lists?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You run blue and no Chalice of the Void, why isn't Brainstorm in either of your lists?Taken from the MUC thread;
Contrary to popular belief, Brainstorm is not an auto-include in every single deck playing blue. At least not in my book. Why? Well, for starters, let’s look at what Brainstorm actually does. It draws you three cards, but then requires you put two back on top of your library, so you don’t net any actual card advantage. Instead you essentially get to reorder the top of your library in addition to your hand. While that’s not a terrible effect, Brainstorm really gets ridiculous when a shuffle effect is involved. Now you have potentially shuffled away two cards you didn’t want, in addition to investing the Brainstorm, and replaced them with 3 new cards of higher value. That’s quite amazing! So why isn’t Brainstorm in my list then, now that I’ve finished singing the card’s praises? Count the shuffle effects in my list. That’s right, zero. Not one. So, instead of being the ridiculous cantrip-supreme that just earned itself a place on the Vintage restricted list, Brainstorm is merely an ok cantrip in my list. Would you put an Opt in that slot? I didn’t think so. Don’t let the name Brainstorm fool you into thinking it belongs in every single deck with blue, although it certainly does come very close, this just happens to be one of the rare exceptionsThere's much better things this deck could be doing with its mana. Brainstorm wouldn't bring anything to the deck and would decreace disruption density.

[MTG Guru]

This deck needs some sort of card quality. It seems like the deck can just "poop" out on you, with all the mana accelerants and lands. Maybe Ponder or Serum Visions?

[Barsoom]

I usually use Fabricate for getting win conditions (Incubator) and the Bridge, simply the best card of the deck imho; redudance is the key here i think for fighting counters decks, this is the reason for the 4of Brooch; normally you will see only one fabricate per match, using it for getting a brooch seems wasting something for me.
Petals imho wasn't really needed, we are very fast without too, and as you said the mid-game is better without, and mid-game is the time where a control deck (like this) must win the game.
About Cursed Scroll, of course it doesn't combo with the Cloisters, was a mistake by me; anyhow, cloisters are really strong here not to use, the perfect draw card for this deck i think.

Actually, i tested (for fun) in the deck (don't laugh) Urza's Mine, Power Plant and Tower instead of the Tomb and the City. While this slow down the deck a bit, i keep winning the same way (i tested only with my friends against decks like Affinity i won 3-0 and Blue Skies 2-0 among others).
I'll keep testing and playing this for sure on the time to come.

This deck is a little gem and one the funniest i ever played, you should be proud to be the maker of this.

[Barsoom]

sorry my mistake you can delete this post...

[robby]

I usually use Fabricate for getting win conditions (Incubator) and the Bridge, simply the best card of the deck imho; redudance is the key here i think for fighting counters decks, this is the reason for the 4of Brooch; normally you will see only one fabricate per match, using it for getting a brooch seems wasting something for me.
Petals imho wasn't really needed, we are very fast without too, and as you said the mid-game is better without, and mid-game is the time where a control deck (like this) must win the game.
About Cursed Scroll, of course it doesn't combo with the Cloisters, was a mistake by me; anyhow, cloisters are really strong here not to use, the perfect draw card for this deck i think.

Actually, i tested (for fun) in the deck (don't laugh) Urza's Mine, Power Plant and Tower instead of the Tomb and the City. While this slow down the deck a bit, i keep winning the same way (i tested only with my friends against decks like Affinity i won 3-0 and Blue Skies 2-0 among others).
I'll keep testing and playing this for sure on the time to come.

This deck is a little gem and one the funniest i ever played, you should be proud to be the maker of this.


All great points and I agree. I knew alot of players would instantly think - Stax or Chalice Aggro, and be completely confused on card choices. I am glad players like you understand how the deck is played.

I agree with your call on the Petals and will make that change soon. I'm not sold on the 4 Brooch's though. As my version currently is, top decked Brooch's just suck, I may feel differently after playing cloister. Thanks for putting time into the deck, I appreciate it.

edit:


This deck is a little gem and one the funniest i ever played, you should be proud to be the maker of this.

Yeah this deck has been a favorite of mine for about 8 years. I tried a legacy port once before a couple years ago, but really didn't know enough about the card pool to getting it working the way it should. This deck idea up till this point has really only been seen by me and a couple friends, so I'm glad to see others are using it and having fun with it.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I don't think any cantrips would be good in this deck. One time draw fixing only helps if you have something to look for with significant impact. Thresh can use cantrips to dig into threats or answers to threats. Breakfast can dig for combo pieces to win the game on the spot. Cantrips are used to get the right mana to business ratio in TES and High Tide.

I could see Top working, however. Constant draw fixing is great, especially when you depend on top decks as opposed to draw spells.

[MTG Guru]

Sensei's Divining Top and Thrumming Stone should work. The combo usually works with two Tops and lets you draw a significant amount of cards.

[robby]

I don't think any cantrips would be good in this deck. One time draw fixing only helps if you have something to look for with significant impact. Thresh can use cantrips to dig into threats or answers to threats. Breakfast can dig for combo pieces to win the game on the spot. Cantrips are used to get the right mana to business ratio in TES and High Tide.

I could see Top working, however. Constant draw fixing is great, especially when you depend on top decks as opposed to draw spells.

I could maybe see Top. The deck would need shuffle outlets, not sure how fetch lands would impact the deck, I am also not sure if fetchlands would do enough to make top work.

I'll probably be play testing this after some more updates after reading over how Samsunait has done.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You don't need shuffle effects with Top, but it does become a lot better with them. Fabricates and fetch lands should be more then enough.

[robby]

You don't need shuffle effects with Top, but it does become a lot better with them. Fabricates and fetch lands should be more then enough.

Yeah but with out the shuffle effect, anything beyond the first use is just giving you access to 1 new card. If a deck had 0 shuffle effects, I would look at top as being an un-needed mana sink.

I had forgotten about Fabricate, yeah top looks promising. Also thought I should point out Top+Key has some neat tricks. I half way would want to run top in the Cloister spot. Cloister does have synergy with 2 other cards in the deck, but bridge and brooch worked on their own before coister, so I dont know if the 4 drop is better than the 1 drop. I really need to sink my time into some play testing.

[idraleo]

Brainstorm and SDT are well supported in decks that could shuffle constantly. If you' re trying to get redundance, some draw spell will fit even better, first of all TFK or FoF or AncestraL Vision since you don' t pack CotV.

BTW, don' t you think that Incubator+Cursed Scroll is a couple of finishers that goes too much under E.E. and Pernicious? Is there any other finisher viable, Meloku for example?

[robby]

editted: woops, accidently deleted this.

In a nut shell, you'll want to Brooch deed. It's going to screw the entire deck. I have played against Rock, and it is possible to Brooch Deed. Going first, 4 mana turn 2 isn't hard to pull off. As turns pass drop more Brooches and Keys, untill your opponent is locked out. Deed is the only card I know of that is ran main deck that completely hoses this deck though, and short of getting Brooch first, there is nothing you can do.

An early EE however doesn't really hurt. You can easily play around it. The most obvious and common way would be put out enough of a threat to force the EE to be popped, then just brooch later game EEs. Remember you don't have to make 1/1s untill after you have a good set up going to answer EE. All in all, its not a problem.

[Barsoom]

I must be honest, i don't like Top in this deck, at least not after i saw how good Cloister is; it's perfect together with the two best and key cards of the deck, what do you need more? 1 mana or 4 mana doesn't really matter here with our manabase, 1 mana card is worst against something like countertop, powder keg, EE though; i don't like fetchlands here too, we have Ancient Tomb life loss and we are vurnerable to stifle that's played everywhere these days.
Is Top worth testing? well, maybe Yes. Is Top better than Cloister IN THIS DECK? honestly, i think Not.
I think that with all the 4of cards we got, we need card Quantity draw here and not Quality draw, and Cloister is perfect for this; for quality 4 Fabricate are enough here imho. I would like more Thirst for Knowledge instead of Top in this deck, all in all.


BTW, don' t you think that Incubator+Cursed Scroll is a couple of finishers that goes too much under E.E. and Pernicious? Is there any other finisher viable, Meloku for example?

Like robby said Brooch is the key card against Deed, if you counter it good job, if not, well, Deed is a pain in the ass for many other decks, at least we are not alone... about EE, with some skills and playtesting you can play arount it, not a big problem.

[MTG Guru]

I'd throw in some Crucibles and Fact or Fictions in this deck. This should be the setup you're really looking for, when it comes to card advantage.

[robby]

mWow, I really like cloister, it works much better in the updated version than it did in a version I previously tested. I have been working on the mana base alot and have come to a new base that I think is much more effective.

I love the Cursed Scroll. It almost feels like it was made for this deck. Thanks for the addition Samsunait. Scroll does randomly conflict with Cloister which isn't much of an issue. I've actually only had this problem when I had 2 cloisters out, and at that point I was getting 3 cards a turn and was going to win anyway. Mox Diamond inadvertently helps this situation.

//NAME: Brown Control
1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb (+2?)
8 Island
4 Crystal Vein
4 Maze of Ith

4 Mox Diamond
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Voltaic Key

4 Null Brooch
4 Ensnaring Bridge

2 Snake Basket
4 Cursed Scroll

4 Fabricate
3 Bottled Cloister

I like the Crystal Vein's in the deck which replaced 2 islands and 2 tombs. It gives the deck the explosive start that the petal's used to, but your not giving up mid-game consitency land brings. You do lose a little bit from the 2 tombs, but as we've already discussed the life loss can get a bit out of control. I dropped 2 tombs to fit 4 Vein's before the fetchland discussion, which is really the only discussion we've had on the life loss. I think this base sacrafices a very (very) small amount of consistency for 4+ life per game. I have easily lost 10 or more life in long running games and it was becoming an issue especially in the already hard to deal with Burn match.

The Downside:
Daze/FoW will hurt the decks turn 1 and 2 power plays a little more when using Vein.

For anyone that hasn't played the deck, a couple common plays are:

Turn 1 any land, key
Turn 2 any land or 2-mana land if you didnt play one turn 1, monolith, 1-5 mana to use on any other spell you have.

This play hurts more than it used becuase if you get dazed or FoW you lose a land + the spell rather than just the spell. You have to play more cautiously against blue to keep this from happening. If not countered, it works about the same, becuase at that point your not relying on mana from your land.

Another good early play:
Turn 1 two-mana land, mox, monolith, key, any 1-5 drop (Ensaring Bridge)(better yet, 1 or more monoliths then Bridge)

(If you haven't played the deck, or you missed it. You can burn mana off on the Key by using it to untap itself X number of times. This allows you to gain 1-5 mana with a key and a 3-mana artifact, taking no mana burn.)

On the flip side, Brown Control can easily play around Daze, just be aware of it. You can get Thresh to a point to where its only counter is FoW. This is not hard to do and Brown Control runs a few "must counter" spells, making it easy to pull the only 4 counter Thresh can use.

The deck gains consitency having 2 more two-mana lands than it previously did. You could opt to run 4 of each two-mana land, but so far I don't see it as being necessary or worth it. For the sake of increased consitency I could see just deciding to go with 4 of each. I've been trying to decide if life loss is worth the small amount of mana consitency this creates. I'll play it each way. I encourage anyone testing the deck to try both ways and posting your findings on life loss and consistency vs. no life loss and slightly less consistency. Along with anything else I may have missed.

As you can see I am still running snake basket. I tested Incubator a bit but it just seems weak late in the game, and if you are short on how many 1/1s you can make you can't do anything about it other than try to win with scroll. I would suggest taking time to test snake basket before writing it off.

[idraleo]

Another point, with the great amount of mana produced by Basalt and Thran Dinamo, did you consider running Reshape or Transmute Artifact?

[Barsoom]

I like the new manabase, Crystal Vein fits very well in the deck, as you said you can crack it first turns if you need or you can wait and use a 1 mana land without drawback; maybe i would add the 3° Ancient Tomb; while the life loss can be problematic, the Tomb is really powerful first turns, with only 2 copies you won't see it many times; with 3 copies you have the right consistency/life loss balance imho. 4 was too much for sure though.
My manabase would be like this:
1 Academy Ruins (+1)
4 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
7 Island (-1)
4 Crystal Vein
4 Maze of Ith
I found the Ruins to be quite powerful when it come, speacially against counterspells, so right now i'm testing with 2 Ruins; i know that's legendary, but we have Mox Diamond that can help here too.
I'm glad you like Cloister and Scroll, these cards are made for this deck...
With 2 Ruins maindeck maybe Snake Basket is worth testing, and i'll do; anyhow, i think that using Incubator or Basket will end to be a personal preference.

EDIT
idraleo: with our manabase 2 islands mana cards can be problematic to play; like with Transmute Artifact, it's difficult to play it turn 2, and later turns you can simply play Fabricate that's imho the best tutor we can use; thanks for suggestions though.

[robby]

What did you drop for the extra ruins? I'm a bit hesitant to cut anymore Islands, but I will test it.

idraleo: I'm with sam on this one.

I have always wanted to play with Transmute in legacy but it just doesnt really do much here. Even if you had the UU to cast it, there isn't anything all that strong that would warrent saccing something you have in play.

[MTG Guru]

Instead of running an extra Academy Ruins, why not run Tolaria West, which can also fetch Maze of Ith, as well.

[Barsoom]

In my funny version with the Urza's lands, i have only 6 islands, and in 20+ games i played i never ever had problems casting Fabricate when i have/want to, 6 islands + 4 Moxes are enough for 4 cards with only one blue mana, believe me.

Tolaria West is a good tip, you can tutor Mox and Ith when you want, that's quite good; only is this better than the recursion ability of 2 Academy Ruins? also 2 blue mana here while not the end of the world can be problematic if we want let's say the Ith fast and furious, with no time to build up the manabase.

[MTG Guru]

only is this better than the recursion ability of 2 Academy Ruins?

Academy Ruins is legendary.

[Barsoom]

I mean 2 Academy Ruins in the deck versus 1 Academy and 1 Tolaria...

[robby]

Known SB problems:
Pithing Needle
Shatering Spree

Known MD problem:
Creatures with CIP destruction
Pernicious Deed

The way I had the deck before you could dip the SB into any color. Now it would have trouble with anything not blue. Is there a stremlined answer for anyone of these problems?

edit:
Seems like ive seen a million Seismic Assault lately. It makes me miss the Wishboard and Petals.

[Barsoom]

For Pernicious Deed and Seismic Assault, if you don't counter with the Brooch, we can use Pithing Needle ourself, seems quite good.

For Pithing Needle and Shatering Spree the only card i can think at the moment is Chalice of the Void at 1, that stop like 60% of Legacy cards too... the problem is that's stop Cursed Scrolls and Voltaic Keys too; maybe we can leave our Scrolls 2° game and put in another win condition.

[dahcmai]

Might be worth using Power Artifact. Makes for some Snake Baskets from hell. that or just go old Rocket Launcher like the old days back when you could Power Artifact a Basalt and it worked.

[robby]

For Pernicious Deed and Seismic Assault, if you don't counter with the Brooch, we can use Pithing Needle ourself, seems quite good.

For Pithing Needle and Shatering Spree the only card i can think at the moment is Chalice of the Void at 1, that stop like 60% of Legacy cards too... the problem is that's stop Cursed Scrolls and Voltaic Keys too; maybe we can leave our Scrolls 2° game and put in another win condition.

Chalice doesn't stop spree coppies.


Might be worth using Power Artifact. Makes for some Snake Baskets from hell. that or just go old Rocket Launcher like the old days back when you could Power Artifact a Basalt and it worked.
I've considered making a transitional SB with that combo and/or a Wake Thrasher/Bassalt Monolith combo.

Truth is if either of these combos are any good it will probably be main decked. Chances are they aren't any good anyway. So I am trying to just focuss the deck's current direction. But fill free to try your own testing and see where it goes.

[Kitchen Table Hero]

Came across this thread and it inspired me to make a similar build with white instead of blue, been running it for a few games and its a blast to play, so thaks Robby for showing the deck here and the discussion that followed.


// Lands
6 [APL] Plains (1)
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
1 [US] Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
3 [OV] Cursed Scroll
3 [US] Voltaic Key
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [UD] Thran Dynamo
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [RAV] Bottled Cloister
4 [EX] Null Brooch
4 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [7E] Caltrops

I decided for white over the blue basically because I think it gives a stronger sideboard as well as an alternate win con with Decree of Justice.
I havent found the chalice to conflict with the null cursed scroll and key much at all - I usually try to set it at 2 anyways because it eliminates almost all threats that opposing decks have. The SB is pretty self explanatory, I havent played against dredge/ichorid with this yet but can imagine that match up being pretty problematic.
I havent experimented too much with the manabase but am strongly considering adding a Tabernacle or two.

What do you guys think of the white splash? are there any obvious white cards that should be added that I am missing? Ive considered oblivion ring and rebuff the wicked.

[robby]

Came across this thread and it inspired me to make a similar build with white instead of blue, been running it for a few games and its a blast to play, so thaks Robby for showing the deck here and the discussion that followed.

I decided for white over the blue basically because I think it gives a stronger sideboard as well as an alternate win con with Decree of Justice.
I havent found the chalice to conflict with the null cursed scroll and key much at all - I usually try to set it at 2 anyways because it eliminates almost all threats that opposing decks have. The SB is pretty self explanatory, I havent played against dredge/ichorid with this yet but can imagine that match up being pretty problematic.
I havent experimented too much with the manabase but am strongly considering adding a Tabernacle or two.

What do you guys think of the white splash? are there any obvious white cards that should be added that I am missing? Ive considered oblivion ring and rebuff the wicked.

Legacy players can't help but think chalice/trini the second they see two-mana lands and excel, myself included. However, there is no need to shut off anything that costs 0-3. Sure the deck can run chalice and trini as well as a crucible lock, but there is virtually no reason to. The effectiveness to deny your opponent relevant spells with the current engine is easily overlooked.

"But robby most of the format depends on an early mana curve". Yeah I know, and this deck is equipped to handle those 0-3 spells as is. Chalice, Trini, and even Crucible/Wasteland take up valuable space to try and do something that this deck doesn't need done.

This deck defiantly seems similar to various chalice strategies but would be much better compared to old school U/W control. Which utilized Moats (and island sanctuary) to shut down all (non-flying)creatures. After a Moat was down the game plan was to shut down key non-creature spells or flyers.

The difference between Brown Control and old U/W control would be better casting costs, a counter engine, can handle flyers, and has mana accelerators. Often you can ignore your oppoents turn 1,2 and 3 as they are often creature drop which you will shut down in a relevant ammount of time.

More to your ideas:

White defiantly brings alot to the table and I think play testing white over blue is defiantly worth it. Fabricate is currently a very strong element of the deck as it is a copy for anything in your deck +3 easily obtainable mana. E. Tutor might be able to fill this roll in white, but is quite a bit slower.


Decree of Justice-
This card was the very first "new" card I ported into this deck when I first tried to make it legacy legal years back.. when decree was considered "new" :p. It works great. Its just a matter of getting other white cards to work in the deck just as well.

Tabernacle virtually brings nothing to the deck. Brown control has an end all answer to almost every relevant creature in the format as a 4 of with 4 tutor effects to grab it. The reason for Maze of Ith is to serve the roll bridge does early in the game if you are not able to draw into it. Tabernacle can not be used that way. Tabernacle will rarely be little more than mana denial on turns 1-3 while guys are hitting the dome, in contrast, the maze keeps your life total up or completely shuts down a goyf, lackey, in the early game.

I see you added Karn, its funny I had completely forgot the old Type 1 list ran that as added beats and mox killing. Let me know how it works out in legacy.

The deck is early enough in development where I think any color could potentially outshine blue. Maybe even splash with blue. I encourage you to play test and let us know how it goes.

[Zinch]

Legacy players can't help but think chalice/trini the second they see two-mana lands and excel, myself included. However, there is no need to shut off anything that costs 0-3. Sure the deck can run chalice and trini as well as a crucible lock, but there is virtually no reason to. The effectiveness to deny your opponent relevant spells with the current engine is easily overlooked.

"But robby most of the format depends on an early mana curve". Yeah I know, and this deck is equipped to handle those 0-3 spells as is. Chalice, Trini, and even Crucible/Wasteland take up valuable space to try and do something that this deck doesn't need done.

This deck defiantly seems similar to various chalice strategies but would be much better compared to old school U/W control. Which utilized Moats (and island sanctuary) to shut down all (non-flying)creatures. After a Moat was down the game plan was to shut down key non-creature spells or flyers.

The difference between Brown Control and old U/W control would be better casting costs, a counter engine, can handle flyers, and has mana accelerators. Often you can ignore your oppoents turn 1,2 and 3 as they are often creature drop which you will shut down in a relevant ammount of time.

More to your ideas:

White defiantly brings alot to the table and I think play testing white over blue is defiantly worth it. Fabricate is currently a very strong element of the deck as it is a copy for anything in your deck +3 easily obtainable mana. E. Tutor might be able to fill this roll in white, but is quite a bit slower.


Decree of Justice-
This card was the very first "new" card I ported into this deck when I first tried to make it legacy legal years back.. when decree was considered "new" :p. It works great. Its just a matter of getting other white cards to work in the deck just as well.

Tabernacle virtually brings nothing to the deck. Brown control has an end all answer to almost every relevant creature in the format as a 4 of with 4 tutor effects to grab it. The reason for Maze of Ith is to serve the roll bridge does early in the game if you are not able to draw into it. Tabernacle can not be used that way. Tabernacle will rarely be little more than mana denial on turns 1-3 while guys are hitting the dome, in contrast, the maze keeps your life total up or completely shuts down a goyf, lackey, in the early game.

I see you added Karn, its funny I had completely forgot the old Type 1 list ran that as added beats and mox killing. Let me know how it works out in legacy.

The deck is early enough in development where I think any color could potentially outshine blue. Maybe even splash with blue. I encourage you to play test and let us know how it goes.

I know that you don't want another stompy style deck, but chalice and/or trinisphere must be at least in the sideboard against combo. You don't have any other answer... And don't tell me Null Broch because you will be dead years before you can cast the broch...

[robby]

I know that you don't want another stompy style deck, but chalice and/or trinisphere must be at least in the sideboard against combo. You don't have any other answer... And don't tell me Null Broch because you will be dead years before you can cast the broch...

I never said not to put it in SB. I have them in the SB I play with and they are big helps in the combo and the burn match up. Just so there are no assumptions made on what I am claiming... this deck is developmental, combo is an issue, burn is an issue, other match ups are an issue. This deck shines in aggro/aggro control environments and thats where focus is placed. That is the environment that the very root of the deck (brooch/bridge) works best in and the rest of the deck is built to have synergy with that strategy.

On the record:

1.) A turn 3 Brooch with 2 mana open is not extremely rare. Saying it takes "years" to activate is completely exaggerating it. Brown Control is not built to do this, but it should be pointed out 6 mana on turn 3 is not hard to pull off (via combinations of 2-mana lands, mox, 3-mana artifacts and voltaic key). Anyone that has done play testing I am sure will support that they have, or could have dropped a early Brooch at least some of the time. And yes I know combo can win turn 1 or 2, when that happens alot of decks are screwed, not just this one.

2.) The deck can easily take game 1 from TES if the tes player tries to win via goblin tokens. By the time they get a second chance you have Brooch active. If a TES player knows you are running Bridge, it will do you little good, but holding it back in the match up can steal game 1.

3.) Ichorid wins on the combat step and loses to bridge.

4.) I am only pointing this out so it not assumed this deck is the worst possible deck to use against combo. It does have a bad strategy game 1 and can pack hate game 2 and 3. Once again, I am not claiming a strong combo match.

No deck can claim good match ups around the board and trying to main deck answers for everything can leave your deck unfocussed and weak. You have to choose what works best and build on that, and thats what I've been trying to do. I am aware this concept may fizzle out due to lack of solid cards for this strategy, but untill I am convinced it can't be improved upon I'll continue posting my testing results and ask for help.


chalice and/or trinisphere must be at least in the sideboard against combo.
And, agreed. Wasn't trying to be so defensive, I just want to make sure no one is confused on the choices.

[robby]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78048

:eek:
Are you kidding me?! This defiantly has potential here. First 2 abilities are extremely relevant and on point with what this deck is already doing. This could really add nice stability to the deck, and could potentially free slots up. The mana base might have to be re-worked. I'm curious to see if its a fit. I will begin testing soon as I finish my classes for the week. Anyone that has been play testing this deck, please try this one out and let me know how it goes.

edit: I can't find a single post about it here, some one point me in the right direction. Over at MTGS they are saying Time Vault will be able to untap with twiddle effects as of the 24th. Is this true? I assume it would get an instant ban in legacy...

[Zork]

Time vault is banned.

Also, I need to pick up a full set of Tezzeret.

[robby]

-edit-
apparently im stupid.

[Skeggi]

Time Vault will be banned starting September 17th. The errata will be removed September 26th. On September 24th there will be an announcement about the errata change.

Clicky (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/news/09012008)

[robby]

Time Vault will be banned starting September 17th. The errata will be removed September 26th. On September 24th there will be an announcement about the errata change.

Clicky (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/news/09012008)

Thank you, I have not been current on my MTG news lately and the new wizards main page flash layout annoys the crap out of me and has tuned down my mtg news sifting. This clears things up for me, I appreciate it.

[Barsoom]

Are you still working on this deck robby?
I'm curious about Tezzeret testing and suck.

[robby]

Are you still working on this deck robby?
I'm curious about Tezzeret testing and suck.


I have been randomly playing online. Tezzeret requires a pretty big overhaul and I haven't optimized a solid use for it in this shell.

The deck still has a great game 1 then is missing a way of protecting against SB artifact destruction, other than a lot of redundancy. This deck is just as solid in aggro heavy meta's as it every was, which is a good thing.

[Barsoom]

I'm still playing with this deck sometimes, it's a lot of fun, and can fight against most of the field, it's the same story as Affinity, a good pet deck to play but that can't survive versus serious artifact hate.

Here my latest list, if someone is interested:

1 Academy Ruins
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Island
4 Maze of Ith

4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Null Brooch
3 Bottled Cloister

4 Cursed Scroll
1 Myr Incubator

4 Fabricate
2 Tezzeret the Seeker

The inclusion of Tezzeret helped to smooth the deck a bit.

[heroicraptor]

4 Maze of Ith?

[MTG-Fan]

4 Maze of Ith?

lol

[Willoe]

MTG-fan: Insightful comment. However, I agree 4 Mazes is overkill in my opinion. It gives such a tempo loss as it does not produce mana, which sucks, badly. I'd rather play a singleton and then perhaps a tutor of some kind. Because it is cool against Dreadnought decks, after all.

[Darkenslight]

Um, play Riftsone Portal as a 2-of? That way, your Mazes can play most of the spells in your deck, especially when combined with Null Brooch.

[eq.firemind]

Anyone still playing this deck?

Looks like Metalworker can be very usefull here...

[robby]

I loaded up the deck again the Grim Monolith, it's still not bad. Good match ups against random scrub decks. So far the only serious deck I've play against since picking back up is Merfolk. The merfolk match up seems favorable, although in a tournament it would likely go to time. Has anyone else been playing the deck?

[eq.firemind]

Finally found this thread!

robby, could you please post your latest list?

[Volrath]

I've been playing around with the following list for a while now, and i'm quite impressed if i say so myself.

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
6 [US] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker

// Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
4 [HOP] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
1 [FD] Staff of Domination
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [US] Smokestack
1 [US] Stroke of Genius
1 [TSP] Chronatog Totem

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [5E] Meekstone
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FNM] Bottle Gnomes
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 2 [IN] Wash Out

The main idea is resolving a metalworker and tezz to combo out.

The totem is for when you are comboing out and you have already played your land that turn, also it can rape an opponent in a pinch if smokestack is out.

Meditate/thirst is great, sculpting your hand, fueling worker and meditate is superb under a tanglewire and/or smokestack.


Edit: i should probably run Emrakul as a kill con in either the main or side, but i hate it being a dead draw and i have an unnatural hatred for it.
I should probably put a Null Brooch in the side against Fow for when i'm comboing out.