[Brainstorming] Balancing Act

[Tog]

Well since I'm on a role, guess I'll make another thread. I was back to my deck making antics which always end up in failure. For the third time, I was trying to build a deck around Recoup, Burning Wish, and Ruby Medallion. However, just like last time, I realized there aren't ANY good red sorcery targets with the sole exception of Void which is marginal at best. However, browsing through sorceries, I came across Balancing Act. I know it wasn't even a good deck in extended but I stuck with it. I couldn't come up with a decent decklist in the end but I didn't think my efforts should go to waste. I thought I'd pass it on to the next taker.

One thing makes Legacy very different from Extended. It has access to Lion's Eye Diamond. I thought to myself, "Gee, wouldn't it be really cool to go Burning Wish, Pop LED, in to Balancing Act. I could destroy my opponents board, pay for Balance's casting cost, AND mindtwist them at the same time!" The same could be said about cantrip, LED, and card which puts Act as the top card of your library (Mystical Tutor, Lim-Dul's Vault).

There are a couple things I could conclude from my attempts. (1) Legacy has Lion's Eye Diamond. (2) Legacy has better sac lands. (3) The deck can go one of two routes: the Greater Gargadon route or the MM depletion lands/FE on color sac lands.

I'm just going to break down some of the card choices I'd come across which might prove of some value for the avid deck builders. First I'll discuss win conditions. Then, I'll discuss utility spells for the set up. Lastly, a discussion about the mana base.

Possible Win Conditions:
Traditional win conditions won't work (Terravore, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf) because we have to discard our hand to LED.

Black:
Nihilith: Possibly the best win condition. Black (Can't be snuffed). High converted mana cost. Automatically comes down and swings after a Balancing Act. Evasion. It's cost can be paid on a turn prior to Balancing Act.
Nether Spirit: Don't have to pay the cost. Often only creature in the yard. SLOW win condition.

Red:
Greater Gargadon: Sacrifices board and sets up Balancing Act. Incompatible with self sacrificing lands because Gargadon comes in to play too late after Balancing Act.

Green:
Durkwood Baloth: Meh.
Roar of the Wurm: Has potential. Need to pay minimum of eight mana on the turn we balance (not including protection for Act). Zero converted mana cost. Compatible with Nether Spirit as it isn't a creature. Don't need to worry about being able to resolve it as they won't have a hand.

White:
Chronosavant: Only needs a manageable two mana float after Balancing Act. Loss of a turn isn't significant.

Gold:
Anurid Brushhopper: Need to resolve through counterspells prior to Balancing unlike the other win conditions. Not the fastest clock. Meh overall.

Potential Build Cards:

Blue:
Brainstorm: Only the Gargadon build can support the use of it. It has enough shuffle effects with a stable mana base to make it worthwhile. Fetchlands and Trokair make it invaluable. Can place Balancing Act on top of library to draw of cantrip prior to LED.
Mystical Tutor: Puts Balancing Act on top of library.
Perilous Research: Useful in the Gargadon centric build. Sacrifices Trokair, Chromatic Star, excess Divining Tops.

Green:
Crop Rotation: Interaction with Trokair acts as acceleration. Instant speed land search in to Boseiju. One trick pony.

Red:
Burning Wish: Tutors for Balancing Act and can pop LED without passing priority.
Overmaster: Get what you want to resolve, to resolve. Cantrip.

White:
Orim's Chant: Protection.
Balancing Act: Duh!

Multicolor:
Lim-Dul's Vault: Allows you to set up LED as well as Balancing Act

Artifact:
Sensei's Divining Top: With a million shuffle effect, indispensable in the Gargadon build. Never have enough mana or shuffle to abuse it in the sac land base.

Potential Lands:
Flagstones of Trokair: Synergy with Gargadon build.
Gemstone Mine: Untapped colored sac land.
Archaeological Dig: Untapped colorless sac land.
Crystal Vein: Untapped colorless sac land.
Ruins of Trokair/Ebon Stronghold/etc: Better invasion sac lands.
Peat Bog/Cove/etc.: Depletion lands. Self-sacrificing but takes planning.
Invasion Sac Lands: Because they sac.

Now that I've talk about potential choices, I want to discuss some of the pitfalls of the deck. The Gargadon build is very dependent upon the gargadon. Balancing Act blows without him. However, it's mana base is also a whole lot more stable. It's also a lot better at search out the pieces (i.e. LED). On the flip side of the coin, the sac land build is more independent at the cost of a weaker mana base.

Against almost any deck, you need to Balance with an LED because just blowing up the board and laying down a critter will not be enough. Land, swords will undo all your hard work. So will manaless counterspells.

I wish you good luck!

[Maëlig]

Interesting concept. I see some potential here, although I'm not sure whever or not it could turn into something competitive.
You might also want to play the baubles (mishra's and urza's) in this deck, as they can help you to dig for the cards you need (LED and balancing act) while interacting nicely with balancing act. I'm also wondering whever you could fit second sunrise somewhere in there, but it would need a specific build.

[Willoe]

It will be a nice card to build around, there's just so many sorceries that do the job better. Not by mind twisting and Obliterating, but by simply winning. A graveyard based deck that will rely on little to no permanents as well as the deck will need to cast a white sorcery at four mana seems inconsistent. Remember, you can't play Balancing Act off a LED.

I'm not saying that this idea is bad, cause it isn't, I just think that Balancing Act deserves a sideboard slot in favor of a deck, I think it's very hard to build around.

[Tog]

Remember, you can't play Balancing Act off a LED.


But you can play Balancing Act of the LED. It just takes a little bit of set up. Much like the combo decks in the format, one can conceivably go Burning Wish, without passing priority - LED, in to Balancing Act. Also, Mystical Tutor/Lim-Dul's Vault, Draw of Bauble, without passing priority - LED, in to Balancing Act, yields the same result.

Even if you hardcast Balancing Act, while retaining priority, you can still pop the LED to force your opponent in to discarding their hand.

[rufus]

The fundamental problem is still that Balancing Act is a 4 cc sorcery that doesn't win you the game - you'd be better off to try something with Barren Glory - at least that can win you the game.

[MTG Guru]

The fundamental problem is still that Balancing Act is a 4 cc sorcery that doesn't win you the game - you'd be better off to try something with Barren Glory - at least that can win you the game.

When it resolves it pretty much wins you the game, though. Having no permanents and hand is pretty gamebreaking, especially when you have a Greater Gargadon or Anurid Brushhopper in play.

[freakish777]

BWish into Balancing Act (with LED) seems comparatively weak. Why aren't you BWishing into Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, Empty the Warrens, or Tendrils of Agony and "just winning?"

Balancing Act requires that your lands blow themselves up (invasion sac lands) or that you have Gargadon suspended.

That said, you'll want to consider:

Bosejui (for when you draw Balancing Act)
Recoup (float 9 from lands, LED's, Lotus Petals, Ritual effects, play Balancing Act, flashback Recoup on Reanimate, targetting the Terravore? or whatever, it gives you some options you don't have otherwise)
Deep-Sea Kraken (6/6 unblockable, probably the next best suspend guy after Garga)
Obliterate (BWish target)

[kidsmokin]

Have you looked at some of the old Tings lists from Extended? Obviously Terravore isn't a viable way to win in Legacy but hopefully some of the setup will work similarly in Legacy.

I think a very big problem will be vs. FoW though. If your dude is un-Suspending, expect a FoW, and if the FoW passes through, you're also shot. Granted, it just means you have to rebuild again.

Another idea is to simply run Goyf as the win. You only float 1G extra, giving yourself some breathing room for protection (only float 3GWW minimum), and with all the different types of permanents on the board (Top, lands, sorcery [Act], instant [search spells], most likely some creatures), Goyf will at least be a 3/4 guaranteed, which is faster than Nether Spirit, and if there's more stuff Goyf will probably just get people to scoop. And if Act resolves, Goyf has a slim chance of getting snuffed or swords'd out.

Nihilith is probably the most tech of the ideas so far, because Balancing Act will actually trigger the removal of Suspend counters. Maybe WUB would be a possible color combo?

[Tog]

I think a very big problem will be vs. FoW though. If your dude is un-Suspending, expect a FoW, and if the FoW passes through, you're also shot. Granted, it just means you have to rebuild again.


This is exactly why LED is so important. Forcing the opponent to discard their hand before commiting your threat is very important. In the land of free spells and cheap removal (i.e. Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares), the opponent easily undoes all your hard work. However, in doing so, traditional win conditions (i.e. Goyf, Terravore) will be discarded in the process. That why we have to work with subpar win conditions in the form of Chronosavant, Nihilith, and Nether Spirit. They're some of the few which can either be played prior to the Act without adding to your permanent count (Suspend Creatures) or be played from the yard (Roar, Spirit, Savant).

Again, I'm not sure if the deck can ever be competitive but I just wanted to throw the deck idea out there for somebody with spare time to tinker with. Plus, in that Rector/Obliterate/Gargadon deck, Balancing Act might easily find a home.

[Tog]

Recoup (float 9 from lands, LED's, Lotus Petals, Ritual effects, play Balancing Act, flashback Recoup on Reanimate, targetting the Terravore? or whatever, it gives you some options you don't have otherwise)


That's an interesting idea. Rather than Reanimate though, I would probably suggest Unearth which you can cycle through the process of the game.

Sorry for the double post.

[CleverPetriDish]

I remember the Balancing Tings decks from a few years back. But I would think that at the 4 mana cost, and the fact that it is not easy to manipulate, something like Restore Balance would be better.

Or we could just agree with NJX and expect Wizards to unban Balance any day now.

[Atwa]

Have you looked at some of the old Tings lists from Extended? Obviously Terravore isn't a viable way to win in Legacy but hopefully some of the setup will work similarly in Legacy.

Remember that little deck called Terrageddon? The removal played now isn't much different from that played 1.5 years ago. Besides, when you have taken care of both their hand and lands, the odds are pretty good you'll win before they'll draw both an on color mana source and a removal spell.

Simic Sky Swallower might be good, since it had shroud.

[Tog]

Or we could just agree with NJX and expect Wizards to unban Balance any day now.

I never got a chance to play with Balance when it was legal nor do I play Vintage. Could someone enlighten me in how to manipulate Balance in your favor? It seems pretty symmetrical to me...

[freakish777]

Force of Will

If you're activating LED in response to BWish, Force of Will ruins your day (barring opening with Orim's Chant), so LED really is better against Snuff Out/Swords.


I had completely forgotten about Unearth. The real issue is you'll need a 7 card opening hand to achieve a turn 4 Balancing Act + Vore (and that probably isn't fast enough, considering you're doing nothing in the meantime):

3 Invasion Sac Lands
1 LED
1 Recoup
1 Vore
1 Unearth

In comparison, Gargadon + BWish + LED looks likely to be turn 3?

[Willoe]

The real downside of Balancing Act is that it only reads "sacrifice permanents", not which permanents. The ability to Mind Twist, WoG and Armageddon for 1W is way too broken, and therefore was the card banned, as far as I recall.

Balance is broken, Balancing Act is not very good. Because Balancing Act has a pretty prohibitive cost of 2WW, and because the opponent can just sacrifice their lands and keep their creatures if you just have one or two lands.

Off-topic:

I have downloaded Magic: The Gathering Shandalar, and I want to play the Balance deck (the deck that got Balance restricted in 1994)

Any place to find it?

EDIT:
For what it does, I think it's better to build a deck around Cataclysm, and such a deck does already exist. It's called Death & Taxes.

[Grollub]

I have downloaded Magic: The Gathering Shandalar, and I want to play the Balance deck (the deck that got Balance restricted in 1994)


A quick google, shows this as the first Maysonent (sp) Balance:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Plateau
4 Savannah
4 Taiga

3 Atog
4 Balance
1 Black Lotus
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Chain Lightning
1 Chaos Orb
2 Consecrate Land
3 Disenchant
3 Library of Leng
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Regrowth
2 Relic Barrier
3 Sylvan Library
4 The Rack

Roughly, the version that ultimately led to it's banning. However I think the Titania's Song version was both more fun to play and stronger; due to having multiple locks, and basicly a 3G "lulz I just won" spell. But it really didn't matter much, Balance on it's own overpowered most matches, and without Force of Will to stop the early barrage nothing really stood much of a chance.

[Rush]

On the idea of tutors, I believe you should consider Personal Tutor as well. On the idea of protection, I believe Abeyance would be the best fit here because it Cantrips itself. I would suggest including 4 Orim's Chant, 4 Abeyance, 4 Personal Tutor, 4 Mystical Tutor, and 4 Burning Wish. Also, you are missing the best sac Land card for your deck: Rain of Filth. As for your win condition, Greater Gargadon is your best bet.

About the deck: I don't see it being viable for one reason: Ichorid. The deck is played often enough that I just don't see your deck winning any major tournaments because of it.

With all of this being said, good job on the idea. Would it be possible for you to come up with a sample list?

[Finn]

I never got a chance to play with Balance when it was legal nor do I play Vintage. Could someone enlighten me in how to manipulate Balance in your favor? It seems pretty symmetrical to me...Aside from the fact that it is insanely costed at 1W, it makes no mention of either enchantments or artifacts. So if your permanents consist of stuff like The Rack, Chrome Mox, and perhaps a Guardian Idol, (with no cards in hand) you have removed:

opponent's hand
opponent's lands
opponent's creatures

And while he attempts to rebuild, you are attacking him and he is taking Rack damage. There is no comparison between that and Balaning Act.

[Nihil Credo]

I used to have a semi-casual deck that played Balancing Act and responded to that with Kaervek's Spite to ensure a "clean act". Lotus Bloom and Jhoira of the Ghitu helped to pay that 2WWBBB cost. The rest of the list was Suspend guys and lots of Wishes and tutoring to grab the various pieces.

[MTG Guru]

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Maze of Ith

It's funny how Maze of Ith was restricted back then and Bazaar wasn't. :tongue:

[rockout]

Can you give us a sample list please. I'm itching to try this. Sounds like a ton of fun.

[idraleo]

There was an extended deck that does pretty well last season playing around Gargadont and Act. It had a good Scepterchant backup, why not trying something similar? Something that sounds like:

// Lands
2 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [B] Volcanic Island
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Greater Gargadon

// Spells
3 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [MR] Isochron Scepter
2 [OD] Balancing Act
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 3 [MM] Disenchant
SB: 2 [OD] Balancing Act
SB: 4 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda

[thefreakaccident]

I used to have a semi-casual deck that played Balancing Act and responded to that with Kaervek's Spite to ensure a "clean act". Lotus Bloom and Jhoira of the Ghitu helped to pay that 2WWBBB cost. The rest of the list was Suspend guys and lots of Wishes and tutoring to grab the various pieces.

Lol, Right when I was thinking of suggesting spite...


They used it with that 'real' version of the cheese stands alone.

[freakish777]

Lol, Right when I was thinking of suggesting spite...


They used it with that 'real' version of the cheese stands alone.


That's.... interesting....

4 Kaervek's Spite
4 Academy Rector
4 Devastating Dreams
X (2?) Barren Glory...
Other enchantments (Solitary Confinement, Form of the Dragon, etc).

Obvious downsides: Spite + Rector is 1 mana more than Painter's combo. Both Spite + Rector and Dreams + Rector are color intensive (:b::b::b::w: and :w::r::r:). Both require you to pay additional costs, if either gets Force of Willed, you're pretty screwed. Kaervek's Spite is freaking awful (it also forces you to run Dark Ritual).

Upsides: Rector and Dreams are probably more useful then either Painter or Grindstone on their own.




@Tog, Balance is absolutely busted. Before Burning Wish (and LED) got restricted, you'd use Balance out of the board in the Original Long.dec builds as a catch all. Against Aggro it wrathed their team (giving you time to find busted cards, and provided and answer for Meddling Mage) and Mind Twisted them (and probably blew up a land to boot). Against Control, it (if it resolved) Mind Twisted them, and blew up several lands (if it didn't resolve then it did its job at clearing their hand of a Force of Will or Mana Drain anyways).

If it were legal in Legacy, the fact that it doesn't say Enchantment or Artifact is rediculous. Could you imagine Enchantress sacrificing all their lands to Zuran Orb and then playing Balance with no cards in hand? You sacrifice your creatures, you sacrifice your lands, you discard to zero. You lose (because they keep a huge pile of permanents).

Play The Rack, play ZOrb, play LED, (optional, play Solitary Confinement with Squee in hand) Burning Wish for Balance popping LED in response, play Balance, win the game.



Balancing Act is a lot less busted.

[MTG Guru]

Upsides: Rector and Dreams are probably more useful then either Painter or Grindstone on their own.


You're also forgetting that Rector/Spite can't be shut down by Pithing Needle and Null Rod. That's a pretty significant upside, it has over Painter/Grindstone, though I do agree that Painter/Grindstone is a better combo.

[freakish777]

Heh, you're correct. Actually more importantly, Krosan Grip can't force you to combo twice if you played Devastating Dreams to 'geddon them. Yet more importantly, Kaervek's Spite is ass since it doesn't stop them from playing spells (and Gripping your Barren Glory after taking 5).