[Discussion] Why are we so conservative?

[blacklotus3636]

I've been playing a while and there has always been a well defined status quo in terms of top decks for a particular format. Its usually accompanied by a resistance to change and using the same cards over and over again. I used to think this was what happened in magic everywhere no matter where you were but after my trip to Japan I saw that it is not a "magic the gathering thing" its an "America" thing. In Japan there is a staggering amount of creativity going on compared to America. The more interesting thing about the differences between us and Japan is that thier society is much more conservative socially while ours is of course more liberal. I would tend to think that a more free society would lead to more creativity but the opposite is true in this example. So why is America so free yet so resistant to change?
Why do the Japanese seem to beat the pants off of us in terms of new ideas as it relates to magic?

I'm aware that I'm using the terms like "conservative", "liberal" and "creative" very loosely but since the definition varies so widely I'll just pretend we all agree on the meaning. I think everyone understands what I mean though

[Galroth]

I'm totally surprised you draw some sort of correlation between our creativity in magic, and our societal structures. I see no reason to think there is a correlation.

Please expound on why you think that such a correlation exists? Or are you asking us to find one for you?

[blacklotus3636]

I'm totally surprised you draw some sort of correlation between our creativity in magic, and our societal structures. I see no reason to think there is a correlation.

Please expound on why you think that such a correlation exists? Or are you asking us to find one for you?

In America we beleive in rights for everyone regardless of age, race, sex etc. so that attitude would lead you to beleive that we are more open to new ideas and that would lead to being more creative at things like magic. The Japanese on the other hand don't beleive in civil rights for all people so that would lead you to beleive that they are not as open to new ideas and would squelch creativity but the opposite is true. I'm trying to figure out why this is so.

[raharu]

Japan may have more 'concepts', but they're undeveloped and generally weaker than what we play here. For example, compare the Magus of the Jar tendrils combo deck from one of the larger legacy events a while back to TES. It's slower, less resilient to control/ disruption, has weaknesses typical to creature-combo decks, and had generally too many links in the chain.

Look at the trinket-nought decks from Japan compared to Dreadstill. Not as strong.

There are various examples, but the point I'm trying to make is that there aren't a lack of ideas in the states, but a lack of undeveloped, but large metagames in the states in which weak ideas can thrive and get noticed.

tl;dr IT DOESN'T HAVE SHIT TO DO WITH THE CULTURE, JUST THE METAGAMES. : D

[Jaiminho]

I live in America too, but not in the United States. Yeah.

[technogeek5000]

I live in America too, but not in the United States. Yeah.

We don't take kindly to your types around here.


But yeah, its all to do with the metagames. The Japanese metagame is rather underdeveloped which allows weaker versions of proven deck strategies to be able to place well at small/medium/large tournaments. In the USA, we have several different standard archetypes that the majority of us play (threshold, landstill, aggro loam, goblins, etc...) that makes it less forgiving to tier 1.5/2 strategies.

Also because Americans (USA-ans... god we need a name for people from the states) are so awesome.

[caiomarcos]

We don't take kindly to your types around here.


But yeah, its all to do with the metagames. The Japanese metagame is rather underdeveloped which allows weaker versions of proven deck strategies to be able to place well at small/medium/large tournaments. In the USA, we have several different standard archetypes that the majority of us play (threshold, landstill, aggro loam, goblins, etc...) that makes it less forgiving to tier 1.5/2 strategies.

Also because Americans (USA-ans... god we need a name for people from the states) are so awesome.

You have, it is American, which also is the name for people from the whole American continent. It's not the only word with two meanings, e.g.. Indian.

I do think it's possible to be a correlation between society/culture openness and creativity. I'm sure, actually.

I also think that the Japanese really are more creative, just look at the Tombstalker deck and the 1-Mishra Stax that they showed up with (correct me if I'm wrong, and I think I am). Not that the rest of the world never creates anything new, but it seems that the Japanese are more daring when it comes to deck building. It's even more obvious when you look at non-eternal formats, everyone knows they're going to be the ones with the new and different deck.

[raharu]

You have, it is American, which also is the name for people from the whole American continent. It's not the only word with two meanings, e.g.. Indian.

I do think it's possible to be a correlation between society/culture openness and creativity. I'm sure, actually.

I also think that the Japanese really are more creative, just look at the Tombstalker deck and the 1-Mishra Stax that they showed up with (correct me if I'm wrong, and I think I am). Not that the rest of the world never creates anything new, but it seems that the Japanese are more daring when it comes to deck building. It's even more obvious when you look at non-eternal formats, everyone knows they're going to be the ones with the new and different deck.
Because in Legacy THE JAPANESE METAGAME IS UNDER-DEVELOPED, SO THEY CAN BRING SHIT AND NOT ROLL OVER AND DIE.

Goddamnit, it's that simple.

[GenioDeArena]

Im with you jaiminho, Argentina is also part of America, but Im not going everywere bragging about being "American" I am Argentino hasta las bolas
BTW: I do beleve there is some relationship between every aspect of each culture, that includes metagames somehow, because they are formed by people that lives in the given society and shares a given culture.
BTW2: Raharu, you really star to sound extremely ethnocentric, and, beleve me, that really hurts creativity.

[raharu]

Im with you jaiminho, Argentina is also part of America, but Im not going everywere bragging about being "American" I am Argentino hasta las bolas
BTW I do beleve there is some relationship between every aspect of each culture, that includes metagames somehow, because they are formed by people that lives in the given society and shares a given culture.
No sir. Magic =/= a indicator of a culture.

[GenioDeArena]

No sir. Magic =/= a indicator of a culture.

1_See it as you like dude. The fact IS that nobody did any kind of serious research on this, and I really hope nobody ever does, franky all those hours of work should be spended on something a bit more usefull for humanity, but actually, magic doesnt help humanity either, so who cares.
You beleve that there is no relation between Culture/different aspects of the game, some of us do.

2_Maybe we should look at this from a more psychological angle. I allways beleved that decks I builded were somehow related to my mental states. if i were Euphorici went aggro or Jhonny combo; Mad at something, control, prison or midrange...

Dont know, just thinking out loud.

[The Rack]

Okay, why is it that USA is obviously better than Japan? That's a bunch of shit, you can't just disregard people's decks and ideas. Not cool.

[Isamaru]

I'm not surprised nobody has noticed this until now. If you want the real answer, its because everybody in America is generally like this. They want to play the "best cards" in the "best decks" without understanding the subjectivity of the situation.

Read ANY thread on ANY forum and the majority of the topics and responses will all be nearly identical. Nobody thinks outside the box here.

I've been fighting this battle ever since I started playing the game, so I can only hope that people may start realizing that they're wrong upon reading this thread.

[raharu]

Okay, why is it that USA is obviously better than Japan? That's a bunch of shit, you can't just disregard people's decks and ideas. Not cool.
Some/ a large majority of the decks played there are either not tier one or are unoptimized versions of decks played in the states. Magus of the Jar Tendrils was situational and sub-optimal. Not > TES or FT.

I like Japan, and I like some of the things that come from their metas, but the fact still stands that they aren't on the same level as americans and, I would presume, Germans.

[DeathwingZERO]

Thinking outside the box is a great concept, but still needs to take into consideration specific metagames. Even in America there's a ton of differences between the power level of say RGSA Survival and Dreadstill. Take into consideration that a straight 42 slot Burn deck just went undefeated in our latest 25 man tournament at the Batcave, while nobody was expecting it.

And as far as Japan goes, in terms of Eternal decks they are a bit far behind. Mostly it's because their metagame has just started developing, and being under-defined, they have far more leeway in what they use to win. For the most part they've concentrated on PT and other "money" tournaments, and not a whole lot of work on Eternal. So yes, in terms of sheer power levels America is up on them, but realistically only in these two formats. Otherwise they crush us with ridiculous tech nobody expects. Creativity is not different there, they just have more options because they don't have defined DTB's yet.

And no, cultures do not put much influence in competitive games that require thought as opposed to say physical attributes. Magic, just like say Texas Hold 'Em, are played exactly the same worldwide, thus follow the same concepts. If I was from Denmark as opposed to Oregon, I'd still more than likely be a combo player at heart, and still play the same decks and styles that I like. Metagame =/= social culture. Magic strategies vary everywhere, even within the same cultural locations.

[blacklotus3636]

I think some people may be misunderstanding the point of the thread. The question is not: who has the most developed metagame for format, who has access to the cards or even who's ideas are better. I simply stated that Japanese tend to be more CREATIVE at building decks in terms of the concepts they use and cards most people in the U.S dismiss as unplayable. I made the suggestion that more open societies like the U.S should have more access to ideas meaning more creativity compared to a less open society like Japan.
I think any objective person would say that other things being equal(metagame development, access to cards and tournaments etc.) that the Japanese tend to have more creativity in thier decks. Type 2 is a good example of this because most other formats internationally don't have as big a following. So with that being said, why are the Japanese leading the way in creative deck design consistently while America seems to be behind?

I wanted a discussion but the lack of one seems to provide me with an answer anyway. The fact that people seem to be so offended by the concept that someone else is more creative than them that they can't even discuss the question that was asked implies that we are incapable of working together as effectively on something as the Japanese. You see this corrosive intolerance to different ideas in many areas of American culture and I think it is our greatest weakness as a people. I'm not saying I'm above it all because its not true. The best we can do is work on it

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Japanese on the other hand don't beleive in civil rights for all people


Uhhhhh.

Is everyone else going to just let this slide?

Goddammit. (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2008)


Moving right along.


In what way are we conservative? As far as I'm aware the only place in the entire nation with a stagnant metagame is Syracuse.

[DeathwingZERO]

Creativity is not something that can be measured. Thinking outside the box is not a statistically researchable topic, hence this thread will eventually fail. Japanese are no more creative than Americans, nor are they more creative than anywhere else.

The reason it appears that way is all contained in our DTB forum. There's a number of cards in Legacy that are staples, and there's an even greater number that just aren't up on the same power level. When Japan starts getting more structure to their tournaments, and start seeing more numbers get to it, don't be surprised when they start to turn out more like us or Germany, Italy, etc.

And again, this isn't a regional thing that has to be brought to light. Metagames are what determine what's considered "good", "rogue", or "bad". Geographical regions aren't the same thing, by default.

EDIT: And yes, IBA, I was considering addressing that, as I felt it was a complete fallacy. I just didn't know of the best way to look for it on the fly.

[Ebinsugewa]

And no, cultures do not put much influence in competitive games that require thought as opposed to say physical attributes. Magic, just like say Texas Hold 'Em, are played exactly the same worldwide, thus follow the same concepts. If I was from Denmark as opposed to Oregon, I'd still more than likely be a combo player at heart, and still play the same decks and styles that I like. Metagame =/= social culture. Magic strategies vary everywhere, even within the same cultural locations.

Your poker inference is an interesting one, because it perfectly encapsulates my point. Scandinavian poker players are generally relentlessly aggressive, American players tend to be very "rockish", somewhat conservative/somewhat aggressive. American Magic players generally find the best three or four decks in a format, and play them. I'm not sure if this is due to history of decklists in magazines and such that Americans have been lucky to have since almost the beginning of Magic, but I digress. Japanese players prefer to innovate or play known but unexpected decks and focus much more on solving a metagame. These are regional characteristics that are basically true. I can't explain why for poker or Magic these things occur, but they do nonetheless. I think it may be that Americans tend to classify cards as strictly good or bad, more so than other countries, again, not sure why.

[blacklotus3636]

Uhhhhh.

Is everyone else going to just let this slide?

Goddammit. (http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2008)


Moving right along.


In what way are we conservative? As far as I'm aware the only place in the entire nation with a stagnant metagame is Syracuse.

I don't mean to derail the thread or start a flame war but Japan does not beleive in civil rights. While I was there, there were several places that refused to rent to non-Japanese and would openly say it in print all over the place and the government says its ok. In job ads they can ask for your age,race,religion and anything else they desire and there are few controls to keep employers from discriminating. Just count how many women you see running the trains in Japan.
Finally let me be clear, when I say they don't beleive in civil rights its not in a hateful way. Its just a subtle understanding of the way people in Japan feel things should be run.

[DeathwingZERO]

Japanese culture is relatively xenophobic, but that's not really anti-civil rights. They have progressed over the years, but that's something that's left up to political debates, not the one you are trying to get to at this topic.

@Ebin: Poker from my experiences are roughly the same as Magic: American's are in it to win, typically going to great lengths to achieve such results, and stay on top. Doyle Brunson's books for example teach almost very straightforward to be a bully, and to try to take down pots nearly all the times, unless of course you have the nuts and want to "fish" someone out of their money. More pots taken = more money to throw away on solid hands, so to speak.

But a lot of high ranking Americans now don't play like that (myself included, I hate solely aggressive players), as it's typically a very easy read and can usually end up getting too far in without thinking about what they've done. I've also heard that the Scandinavian's are very, very aggressive, and watched a few in various WSoP events and ones like it, and commentators would bring that up as well. Again though, regions don't factor into it as much as generalized meta's. I'm sure there's a number of Scandinavian's willing to play much more conservatively (one of the particular names escapes me, but he's far more conservative than his fellow countrymen, even the announcers pointed that out), and whether they do good or not is more up to their play skill, as they are trying a rogue approach.

I fully believe certain areas of the world will have metagames that are just as stagnant as Syracuse, thus begin to appear to be the "cultural norm". But most of those areas just haven't had much shaken up (or in some cases, like Japan, stabilized) long enough to produce change. With a set of cards that are the same worldwide, eventually worldwide metagames will emerge, and anything outside that norm would be considered rogue. The basis of my argument is that creativity is not going to be different in various regions, as opposed to various meta's. At any given time a region can look and play the exact same as another, whether it be from outside influence or just someone wanting to do something different.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't mean to derail the thread or start a flame war but Japan does not beleive in civil rights. While I was there, there were several places that refused to rent to non-Japanese and would openly say it in print all over the place and the government says its ok. In job ads they can ask for your age,race,religion and anything else they desire and there are few controls to keep employers from discriminating. Just count how many women you see running the trains in Japan.
Finally let me be clear, when I say they don't beleive in civil rights its not in a hateful way. Its just a subtle understanding of the way people in Japan feel things should be run.

By this logic, America doesn't believe in civil rights because we don't have hate speech laws, which Europe does. You're talking about differing views of how and when government should dictate equality. This is completely different from a discussion of civil rights. You're abusing terms. Stop it.

[Citrus-God]

Japanese culture is relatively xenophobic, but that's not really anti-civil rights. They have progressed over the years, but that's something that's left up to political debates, not the one you are trying to get to at this topic.

I think the Japanese are extremely creative is because of their political and social structure. Here are my theories on this; societies are created because don't want to be killed, fact, seeing as a pure anarchic state would separate the truly weak and intelligent, from that of a retarded cave man. When a society is created, there's the liberal society and the conservative one. In the liberal society, the people tend to thrive on a more conservative or protective mentality in order to keep themselves from making mistakes in the developing liberal society because the more freedom one has, the more mistakes they could make. In the conservative society, the people tend to have a more liberal mentality or out-going mentality because there's a lack of room to move around, hence, the need to create and innovate. So in this example, the Japanese are innovative because of their tendencies to do more in a conservative society, and the Americans playing only the best decks because of fact that they proved themselves and that in a metagame in which the only decks you have to face are more inferior ones, hence, you keep playing the best deck. I might be a tad bit off here, but I'll come back to edit this.



@Ebin: Poker from my experiences are roughly the same as Magic: American's are in it to win, typically going to great lengths to achieve such results, and stay on top. Doyle Brunson's books for example teach almost very straightforward to be a bully, and to try to take down pots nearly all the times, unless of course you have the nuts and want to "fish" someone out of their money. More pots taken = more money to throw away on solid hands, so to speak.

But a lot of high ranking Americans now don't play like that (myself included, I hate solely aggressive players), as it's typically a very easy read and can usually end up getting too far in without thinking about what they've done. I've also heard that the Scandinavian's are very, very aggressive, and watched a few in various WSoP events and ones like it, and commentators would bring that up as well. Again though, regions don't factor into it as much as generalized meta's. I'm sure there's a number of Scandinavian's willing to play much more conservatively (one of the particular names escapes me, but he's far more conservative than his fellow countrymen, even the announcers pointed that out), and whether they do good or not is more up to their play skill, as they are trying a rogue approach.


I heard the players in the West Coast tend to play a more LAG-gier style compared to that or the East Coast players who play kinda Rockish. This might be like 2 years after Moneymaker won, before they found the TAG-ish 3-betting internet approach that is used today.

As for Japan not having a stagnant metagame, does Extended count? It looks an awful lot like the US Extended metagme, with the No-Stick, Ichorid, Aggro Loam, CAL, Tog variants, and such. But for Legacy, I think it's only shaky right now because there aren't many extremely competitive Legacy tournaments to be found in Japan, not enough to waste your time compared to their fast and busy social life.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If we're defining creativity as "The degree to which it differs from the American metagame", I have a tauological answer to the question.

[DeathwingZERO]

@Citrus: The point you had made about Extended looking a lot like ours is exactly what I was getting at: the world in general will have a consensus on formats that are widely played throughout the world. Hence, stagnation on a large level. It happens a lot with PT's, Regionals, etc.....metagames will tend to look the same when so many people, teams, and regions are working with the same card pool, and for the most part with the same dedication. Another prime example of this is the East Coast Legacy and Vintage decks.

They have so many rogue ideas for Legacy and Vintage because in essence, they don't have the development time and energy put into their metagame as we have. Germany, Italy, America, and a number of other places are leaps and bounds ahead of places like Japan, South America, etc in most cases of Eternal formats because of how long we've had teams, forums, etc...built solely on competitive play.

As I said before, time will tell when we see the world in general becoming a metagame that will be more diverse than what is within only the States, Europe, etc....but it will be a long time for everyone to hit the same level. Cultures have nothing to do with it, development and nourishment of their "cultures" (re: Metagames), are the only influence that really matters. Aside from that, it's all about willingness to accept roguish ideas on a personal level, and actually putting up solid numbers with those decks.

@IBA: I'd like to hear what you have to say, actually. Not saying I believe what I have been saying so far is "America vs the world", as I've included known Eternal locations such as Japan, Italy, Germany, and other European and Pacific outlets, but I'd still like to see what your answer would be.

[caiomarcos]

They have so many rogue ideas for Legacy and Vintage because in essence, they don't have the development time and energy put into their metagame as we have. Germany, Italy, America, and a number of other places are leaps and bounds ahead of places like Japan, South America, etc in most cases of Eternal formats because of how long we've had teams, forums, etc...built solely on competitive play.

They don't have to spend any time developing their metagame, they could just look up this or that site and copy the 'decks to beat'. According to you, people can have a fully developed metagame in one day, if they are willing to spend the money and copy American top 8 decks. Money the Japanese have aplenty, and still they show up with different lists.

IIRC, the examples I gave before, like the Tombstalker Fish and the 1-Mishra Stax (I'm not sure if this one was a Japanese player) appeared during Worlds as surprise lists. I wouldn't call Worlds an underdeveloped or non-competitive metagame.

Culture shows up in every aspect of each society, and gaming is one of them.

[DeathwingZERO]

Culture does not shape how competitive players work, though. MTGO, MWS, etc....there's no such thing as cultural boundaries anymore. Everyone is practically on the same playing field, and strategy won't change from West Coast to East Coast to Japan to Germany to ANYWHERE else SOLELY because of culture.

This game isn't an artistic outlet. It's a competitive 1 on 1 strategic game. Top strategies in general are going to win out worldwide, regardless of where they originated, or who developed them (or brought them to light) first. It's very obvious with looking at Standard, Block, Extended, etc PTQ's that this is the case. Very few "rogue" ideas are worldwide in origins, almost always secretive, and their archetypes are NEVER the same (control, aggro, combo, and hybrids) in particular cultures, something openly argued in this thread with no factual evidence. Culture has nothing to do with how a single person (nor regional metagame, for that matter) will play specific decks, or even build them.

@Caoimarcos: No, I'm not suggesting they need to match the American based ideas. In fact, I've been one of the few arguing that elitist mentality, as I've offered up a number of other sources worldwide that I would suggest have a better grasp of the staples of the format. The metagame in Syracuse is much different than say Denmark, Paris, Berlin, San Diego, Tokyo, etc. However, the more often played formats offer a distinct grasp of what happens when everyone worldwide is on the same playing field. Distinct top decks (mostly from a much smaller card pool), and the occasional rogue idea creeps in as a metagame choice.

That very, very rarely happens in Legacy in comparison. While it will guarantee to shift every few months in Standard, we'll see maybe 1 or 2 deck archetypes every 6 months to a year that actually could consider themselves top tier choices (that weren't already established before). This is almost solely because top tier decks tend to get very small changes or upgrades with each set, and newer cards in general (with obvious exceptions) are not nearly on the same power level as a lot of our staples. We'll never see something akin to the Moxen, FoW, Diamond, Rituals, Brainstorm, StP, etc. coming into the new sets.

I personally would like to see some serious innovation coming from Japan. Those following the other formats know their pro's know what they are doing, but a lot of them dabble in Eternal formats, they take so much of their time preparing for their other tournaments that they rarely put as much energy into it. If the metagame develops at a much faster pace there than it has elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised in the least bit that they'll have something we'll be seeing in the rest of the world as a totally new surprise. I'm actually hoping for it. I personally think that the format is in need of some shifting, Thresh has stuck around for far too long in my opinion, and solely on the back of Goyf and CounterTop. Hell, the DTB forum in general is boring to look at now, it hasn't changed much lately, and very little innovation has been happening with any of the decks within.

[Holiday]

@ blacklotus3636 I was wondering what examples you have of this Japanese creativity? Do you mean they have more new and innovative decks or that they are more willing to play decks that arn't common in the US? Can I have a specific example of one of these decks?

I tend to agree with IBA, that the metagame in Syracuse, and also, the North East in general appears to be more, what you would call, conservative. However, look at Gencon. This was a tournament far removed from the NE metagame and we're seeing decks like elves, counter slivers, and even boros in top 8. Is this what you meant by creativity and innovation, the willingness to build and innovate one of the hundreds of legacy decks that don't appear in the DTB thread?

[Finn]

Let me just put this one out there:

The Source is not a Japanese site. There are very few Japanese members.

It is a source of stabilization in a format that is otherwise willy-nilly. You can say that it is a stagnating factor. And you would be right, but an anchor does that. It's been a year or two since I have said this so here goes. When you have so few people holding so much sway over an entire format, it tends to look like what those particular people think it should look like. The further you get from this site in terms of influence, the more diverse the field looks. As long as a deck has to prove itself in an environment that may simply never play it just because there are so few people in it, this will be the case.

So it is not just a Japanese thing.

[blacklotus3636]

@ blacklotus3636 I was wondering what examples you have of this Japanese creativity? Do you mean they have more new and innovative decks or that they are more willing to play decks that arn't common in the US? Can I have a specific example of one of these decks?

I tend to agree with IBA, that the metagame in Syracuse, and also, the North East in general appears to be more, what you would call, conservative. However, look at Gencon. This was a tournament far removed from the NE metagame and we're seeing decks like elves, counter slivers, and even boros in top 8. Is this what you meant by creativity and innovation, the willingness to build and innovate one of the hundreds of legacy decks that don't appear in the DTB thread?

As I said, other things being equal such as access to cards and a proportionate desire for people to work on a particular format the Japanese tend to be much more creative. I use type 2 as the best example because most other formats just don't have the support type 2 has. A good example of said creativity is goblin bidding. Its a Japanese creation that uses a sort of combo finish. Nobody did that before the Japanese and lets not forget the Japanese sideboard during regionals 2004 for the ravager affinity mirror match which goes like this:
4 furnace dragon
4 mana leak
Noone thought of using furnace dragon in the affinity mirror until they started using it. I feel the question of whether they are more creative is pretty much a known fact, what I wanted to know was why this is so.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Maybe the people in the Japanese Magic scene and the atmosphere they've fostered are simply more creative. I think, from my impression, the Japanese players are far less likely to take criticism personally, and thus far more willing to try something off-the-wall and see if it works.

[MattH]

But does culture explain why Brazilians and Italians on MWS disconnect so rudely?!?!

:tongue:

[DeathwingZERO]

But does culture explain why Brazilians and Italians on MWS disconnect so rudely?!?!

:tongue:

That, being far more a personality trait, is a yes. However, since I am adamant about never playing MWS for any reason, will never touch a statement like this with a 10 foot pole. That's just asking for trouble.

@Blacklotus: Also, you are citing instances where they were first to arrive on the scene with a concept, but that doesn't mean they were any more likely than some random guy in the middle of nowhere to come up with the concept.

I'm not going to say that they are less creative than anyone else (or more so, to be honest), but have you thought of the concept that maybe they don't feel the absolute need to play what is considered the best, and opt for the rogue approach because it's a surprise factor? I do this all the time, especially when I've tweaked decks like Ichorid, etc to my meta.

It's an adaption mentality, rather than the "I'm going to play what wins because statistically speaking I'm better off doing so", which is what stagnates any format when too many adopt that mentality. And it's far from being just a Japanese thing. It happens everywhere, just not on a scale that's seen often.

[caiomarcos]

But does culture explain why Brazilians and Italians on MWS disconnect so rudely?!?!

:tongue:
Being from Brazil, I NEVER play against Brazilians on MWS.
That's because culture does shape the way people play, think about and how they approach the game. That shows up on MWS and on Japanese decklists, for example.

[Isamaru]

It's mainly the Brazilians and the French that seem to be so rude on MWS, I think.


This game isn't an artistic outlet. It's a competitive 1 on 1 strategic game.I'd have to disagree, I believe the only point to playing this game as opposed to any other competitive game or sport, for that matter, is the parallels it has to art forms.

[Ewokslayer]

I'd have to disagree, I believe the only point to playing this game as opposed to any other competitive game or sport, for that matter, is the parallels it has to art forms.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that the skills tested in Magic and in Sports vary by a fairly large margin.

[Captain_Morgan]

As I said, other things being equal such as access to cards and a proportionate desire for people to work on a particular format the Japanese tend to be much more creative. I use type 2 as the best example because most other formats just don't have the support type 2 has. A good example of said creativity is goblin bidding. Its a Japanese creation that uses a sort of combo finish. Nobody did that before the Japanese and lets not forget the Japanese sideboard during regionals 2004 for the ravager affinity mirror match which goes like this:
4 furnace dragon
4 mana leak
Noone thought of using furnace dragon in the affinity mirror until they started using it. I feel the question of whether they are more creative is pretty much a known fact, what I wanted to know was why this is so.

I saw a Goblin Bidding deck in extended long before the Japense did their T2 version. Granted it was a local tournament, but the guy built rogue. These sorts of concepts aren't totally alien to people, they just don't get popularized either. The only reason I know his deck even existed years ago, was because I played against it.

My point is that creativity doesn't always become a short heard round the world, and when that shot is fired and heard around the world.. there's a fair chance that the gun has been shot before by someone else.

[DeathwingZERO]

Thank you Captain for putting a point of mine into a post people would actually be willing to read. While I'm in depth in my arguments, I tend to not be so articulate.

[Jaiminho]

I hate Brazilians. With all my heart, I simply hate every one of the average Brazilian person. We grow up surrounded by examples that teach us to take advantage of others in every way and to be extremely arrogant and selfish. It's pathetic.

[DeathwingZERO]

I hate humans. With all my heart, I simply hate every average person. We grow up surrounded by examples that teach us to take advantage of others in every way and to be extremely arrogant and selfish. It's pathetic.

Fixed for what I believe to be more accurate. Bear in mind, those who are "average" in my opinion are those that do not at least multiple times in the same day question "Why?"

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Goblin Bidding came out almost as soon as Goblin Warchief was legal to run. Somehow, I think you're confusing chronologies. It happens a lot. I've had people tell me that they or their friends played Train Wreck in Extended before I even thought of it, but I only heard this a year + later. When I actually first shuffled up Helldozer & Co, before Guildpact was released, I got universally laughed at.

Also, more importantly, who gives a fuck if you or your buddy had some vague half-glimpsed idea through a miasmic haze that would one day vaguely resemble an actual deck? You didn't make the deck work. Any asshole can say, "Gee, they should have a flying car", but you don't get half the patent rights when someone spends years of blood and sweat and painful math and engineering getting it to actually take off the ground. It's easy to toss out ideas on top of each other. It's much harder to spend hundreds of hours fine-tuning and playtesting a deck and making it succeed.

Someone mentioned this earlier somewhere on these boards, but Einstein, for instance, wasn't really the first one to discovered the principles of general relativity. In fact, in it's essence, most people probably came pretty close to figuring out the same goddamn thing when they were kids. But Einstein was the first one to take it really seriously, do all the number crunching and math, make it work and put it out there. He wasn't the first one to notice the fat dude with no clothes on; he's just the first one that had the wherewithall to say, "Hey, the Emperor's fucking naked".

So, likewise. History doesn't remember people for having good ideas; it remembers them for doing something with them.

Seriously. I'm tired of people that don't have the balls and work ethic to make decks work bitching about the people that do wanting credit.

[Nihil Credo]

Bear in mind, those who are "average" in my opinion are those that do not at least multiple times in the same day question "Why?"
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shall be in my sig, slightly edited.

[Captain_Morgan]

Seriously. I'm tired of people that don't have the balls and work ethic to make decks work bitching about the people that do wanting credit.

Never claimed credit for anything, but historically you can see things like Columbus discovering the "New World" with natives living here. It's a perspective capability, and I have no problem with people "taking credit for discovery" in historicity. But, rather showing that exploration or creativity has always had a "someone's already been there and done that, except less prolifically."

Columbus and the Europeans were more proficient in exploitation and eventual conquest colonization of the continents in the New World, however that doesn't mean that Lief Erickson or the natives weren't there before. Also, add in legends that Asians (Chinese more than likely) may have had contact with American natives too if you look.

Were the Chinese, Vikings, and Indians as prolific and powerful as the Europeans? Yes and no, however at the end of the day it was the Europeans and their children that sculpted the New World and them. Mainstream hiistory is written by the winners and the powerful, not the losers or less prolific characters.

Simply stated, someone's been there before to "discover it" and others have independantly "discovered it" as well and taken it to the next level, so they have and deserve the credit. Which is also why people celebrate Columbus Day over "Native Amerindians Day" or "Lief Erickson Day" or forgotten and long since little impact of Chinese seamen. Which to be honest, the guy I played against is that one of many little Chinese seaman and not a "Lief Erickson" or even deserves the recognition of an Amerindian.

Creativity is not unique, it is the hard work to become a major power that is. Therefore, it is something that is across cultures and incalcuable.

[Jaiminho]

Fixed for what I believe to be more accurate. Bear in mind, those who are "average" in my opinion are those that do not at least multiple times in the same day question "Why?"

I've been to other places, more specifically the south of Brazil, in which the average person is completely different - much more educated in their manners and non-intrusive behavior. I think it might be a curse of the biggest cities.

[Natthew]

Seriously. I'm tired of people that don't have the balls and work ethic to make decks work bitching about the people that do wanting credit.

Fuck you, I invented Nourishing Lich.

[Forbiddian]

I know the topic has strayed to why Brazilians are assholes and stuff, but back to Japanese.



It doesn't have to do at all with cultural differences or creativity differences. Even if the Japanese played more rogue decks (DO THEY? Nobody has really proved anything, only like two examples of players playing random crap to T8 spots). It's a HUGE jump between "playing more rogue decks" and "being more creative as a culture and as a people."

Here are other reasons why they might play more rogue decks (assuming that they do, again, I don't concede this point), and the questions you should be asking instead of vaguely "why are they more creative?"



It has to do with the competitive nature of Americans who have to play the best decks and win the most, and refuse to play lesser decks. Why are we more competitive?

No! It has to do with how Japanese are so sentimental. They create something and don't let it go, even if it's found to be worse. Why are Japanese so sentimental?

No! It has to do with how in Japanese culture, when kids cheat in class, they are severely punished. They view cheating by stealing another person's ideas as the worst crime. In Japan, net deckers are actually forced to commit seppuku using the dull edge of a magic card to saw through their own intestines. Why are Japanese so obsessed with committing suicide?

No! It has to do with how in the Japanese Samurai culture, it was important to have a unique sword. Japanese respect the sword for its phallic imagery and also relate this obscurely to playing cards. Thus, the player with the most unique deck will be virile and be happy while the netdeckers will die in a plague and have no children. Why do Japanese like swords so much?


These are much more relevant questions and data to the thread.

[Skeggi]

Why are Japanese so sentimental?

Are we talking about the same country? The country with the really crazy stuff on tv? There's no sentiment in that. Although I must admit the crazy stuff on tv might inspire some Japanese wackjob to start some form of a rogue deck...


They view cheating by stealing another person's ideas as the worst crime.

I have to refer you to Whit3 Ghost's sig:


Legacy is like Japan. We don't make stuff, we just make stuff better.

If there's anything the Japanese do, it's stealing other people's ideas. They really didn't invent the automobile for example.


No! It has to do with how in the Japanese Samurai culture, it was important to have a unique sword. Japanese respect the sword for its phallic imagery

Studies have shown Asian people have the smallest penises of all races. They're just compensating. Are you saying Americans are more conservative because they have big penises? If so, then God bless America and its conservatism.


These are much more relevant questions and data to the thread.

They're more relevant than questions regarding Brazillians and their assholeism. But that doesn't mean these are relevant enough to answer the question in the thread's name.

Let me start the thread again by asking the original question: "Why are we so conservative?"

Answer: "Because we have a stick up our arse."

End of discussion.

[Iranon]

Judging mostly from MWS experience...

Many Americans (Brazilians even more than US residents) seem to regard it almost a sin to run weak cards unless the deck as a whole is tested and deemed powerful (e.g. Threshold). Running developed, conservative lists full of powerful cards is a solid way to maximise winning percentage but it's not the only one.

One might run a theoretically inferior deck with success simply because nobody devotes any sideboard slots to it - Affinity variants can be metagamed extensively and blindside many opponents, but they fall over and die if anyone has them on the radar.
One might run a rough and unusual list simply because opponents will be less familiar with it and consequently make more mistakes; I've read many comments along the lines of 'won due to playskill, the deck sucked' thinking 'in the real world, away from pure theory, the list was perfect'. The Japanese seem particularly good at it.

Sometimes the same works for individual cards... to use the near-canonical example, Arcane Denial is a godawful counterspell. It does, however, allow one to recycle cheap junk for fresh cards and can even be a situational Ancestral Recall.
Imo, the appropriate comment to seeing such jank is more along the lines of 'is the synergy really worth playing such a questionable card?' rather than 'OMFG you suck'.

Going for synergy or metagaming over sheer power is always problematic... usually it's a small gain if you get it right, a big loss if you don't. Still, I think it's too strong to always call it a mistake.

[bruno_tiete]

There is a really close friend of mine who has been playing piles of good cards ever since 1996. Back in the day, all his decks had Serendibs, Ernhams, Wheels of Fortune and other powerful spells, almost ignoring sinergies. His reasoning was that his hands could outpower any other player's hands because when it came to one on one comparison, his cards never lost. It worked back then.

When I look at Legacy today, I get this feeling we are approaching this state of, ignored higly linear strategies, the format only caring about 50 cards. Goyf is the posterchild of this, but its not the only card present in all decks that can (and sometimes some that cant) play it.

It's very likely that there are undiscovered strong strategies out there, but its hard to let Deeds or Forces of Will or Dark Confidants go. These cards are tried and true, and having objectively strong cards in your deck has proved itself along the years.

Actually creating a deck that uses offbeat cards requires endurance, dedication and effort not only to deal with the "just play X" crowd, but also to keep things cool when you are beaten time and again by the finished decklists in this very site.

Its easy to see why people will tell everyone and their neighbors to pick up a better deck or to take out unconventional choices for staples. This "universal" shortcut to tournament sucess chokes innovation.

[Forbiddian]

Cast Sarcasm?

Stupidity in response, I draw 7 cards, target player loses debate.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Someone should nominate that man for Adept. He's a hero, dammit.

[Omega]

Truly, the fact that certain cards are played more than others prove that Legacy is healthy! And as far as for development, that means that a sufficient high number of cards have been tested and we came to the conclusions that certain cards were simply better than others.

Maybe if you actually try building a new deck, and see how bad it does, will you understand that power level on certain cards is not the same as the cards you want to play.
IE : Force of will is better than your Mana Leak
Counterspell is better than your mana Leak
Spell snare, to a certain extent, is better than mana leak
Daze is usually better than mana leak
Counterbalance is superior to mana leak.
But if you still want to play mana leak, because you refuse to accept those facts, what more is to say? You are never going to break mana leak, never.


IE: Tarmogoyf is arguably the best green creature
Tarmogoyf is better than werebear
werebear is better than Grizzly Bear

but if you still want to play Grizzly Bear, because you refuse to accept the fact that certain cards are better than others, go ahead! But one thing is sure, your Grizzly Bear.deck will never make it to the top

IE : (last one, i believe you are getting the ideas) Deed is probably one of the best, if not the best removal out there.
Let's say you play a green/black Grizzly Bear.deck and you refuse to play Pernicious deed, because it is a so-called staples.
Pernicious deed is better than putrefy
Pernicious deed is better than... DESERT TWISTER

But if you still want to play desert twister, because you refuse to play good cards in your deck, go ahead! But don't come whine when you get yourself beat by a fast aggro deck that won't let you have your 5-6 mana to cast Desert Twister! And none of your grizzly bear will stop tarmogoyf!

Having good cards in the deck doesnt mean it will be a good deck. It will increase the strenght of the deck though, that is for sure. You seem to be the type of person that tries to go out of the crowd. Unfortunately for you, you won't succeed well in Legacy. There are staples. You have to face this. Every format has staples.
That said, that doesn't mean Legacy is frozen, unchanged. The format will evolve over time, with new sets, with new strategies. Certain cards have the potential to be broken, but they have to be found first. That is where creativity becomes important. In finding the good combinations. Playing good cards is not enough to win you tournaments. You have to find an harmony between them. For example, both Dark confidant and Tombstalker are considered good cards in Legacy. But playing both in the same deck is suicide.

Robert

[Forbiddian]

I used to play Mana Leak over Cspell when Drains were legal and control was actually decent. Especially if you only run 2 in a deck, they're nearly as good as Cspell and they let you run with Factories or Wastelands (or both). Vs. Aggro or Combo, they're the same pretty much.



Vs. control or other slow decks, a lot of people count your lands and see 1U open (not UU) and just go for their bombshell hoping you don't have a FoW.

Or even better they see 1U open and are afraid of the leak, giving you timewalks when you were just holding onto a handful of crap.

The fact that Mana Leak is so conditional and the knowledge that you have SOME (in your deck) makes it a much stronger bluff than counting out UU every turn.

With UU open, you could be holding a Mana Drain (not anymore), Counterspell, and all the other good stuff from Divert to Arcane Denial. Keeping 1U untapped every turn pretty much tells the other player, "I DON'T have a Counterspell or Drain, but I might have a leak" and the specificity of that bluff is what gets a lot of players. At the very least, you get them to play out their lands. A lot of times burn or something will hold lands in their hand, making it almost impossible for you to count how much final thrust burn they have. Actually, all decks do this for various reasons. If they're afraid of the leak, they'll reveal their mana flood (or screw).

Late game just Brainstorm your crap away before you suffer for letting them resolve something.

EDIT: That paragraph was totally confusing if you couldn't follow what I meant by "bluff." With a bluff, you keep 1U untapped and pretend to have a Mana Leak (like ask them how many they have untapped repeatedly and stuff, keep shuffling one card to the front when they look like they're gonna cast something) so your opponent doesn't try for his bombshell. This lets you timewalk for free if he tries to wait until he can play his bomb with 3 untapped. The point is that you don't have a Mana Leak, and you're stalling for time. Or just trying to make him make imperfect plays like playing out extra lands.

This is more effective if he knows you actually RUN Mana Leak. But yeah, I bluff a lot more than other players, and I'd say in most cases Cspell is better than Leak. I just wanted to tell you all how I trick other players into losing by using niche cards that scare my opponents.



Instead of bashing Mana Leak, you should have said Arcane Denial, which is just garbage. The only thing worse than that card is Richard Kane-Ferguson's craptastic artwork -- which is on that card -- making the card even shittier.

Actually, I do know people who run Arcane Denial. There's no bombshell in the 1.5 game I don't want to see my opponent counter with an Arcane Denial. Even if they counter my Ancestral Recall with it, whatevz. I'd give up a card to tap my opponent out at endstep (and know that they're playing trashy shit like AD).

But speaking of AD, I was in this one game where the guy secretly drew a card right then (instead of waiting until upkeep). Then when I went to draw 2 at the start of his turn, he lied and said that they errata'd the card so that it was draw right then, and since I didn't draw at the time, I chose to draw zero and lost out on the draw opportunity. Thus he'd cast a 1U Dismiss.

I called a judge over who gave the asshole a match loss, but the 1U Dismiss might have worked if I weren't such a litigious little pos (I was like 12 and he was like 25 at the time).



Anyway, I basically just wanted to tell you all THAT story, which was a better story than the first one. I don't think there are many Japanese people playing strictly inferior cards and calling it "creative."

Creative is making a combo deck around countering your own spells with Arcane Denial to generate massive card advantage.

[Omega]

agreed on what you said about mana leak. But what i tried to point out, is that there are way better counterspells in legacy than mana leak. The occasional bluff will never compensate, say the power of Cspell. Early game, there is no difference between a cspell and a mana leak. Late game, we see all difference.

[bruno_tiete]

Well, I never meant to switch Goyfs for Bears. I was actually trying to go with "Richard Feldman did good in GP Flash playing BG Elves with Trinispheres".

There is a lot of borderline good cards that see no play at all when they deserved a little more than that.

Running a couple unexpected cards in your otherwise obvious list could generate advantages that may offset the loss due to raw card quality. A Vendillion Clique out of a UGr Threshold, for instance, could get opponents who didnt see it coming. The whole Ichorid saga strted out in a Rizzo pipe dream.
Another deck that came from a "joke" is Standard Pickles.

Trying silly thing will have positive results once in a while.

If you are going WW/u, Mana Leaks will fit your deck better than Counterspells. That might be a valid strategy at some point.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

agreed on what you said about mana leak. But what i tried to point out, is that there are way better counterspells in legacy than mana leak. The occasional bluff will never compensate, say the power of Cspell. Early game, there is no difference between a cspell and a mana leak. Late game, we see all difference.

God,you're wrong. Mana Leak still costs one less blue. There are plenty of reasons to run Mana Leak over CSpell in a tempo heavy deck like Counter-Slivers or UG Madness, for instance, as there's reasons to run Wild Mongrel or Muscle Sliver over Tarmogoyf. Situation affects which card is best. Your argument is simply wrong; few cards are objectively better than another in all cases.

[Citrus-God]

God,you're wrong. Mana Leak still costs one less blue. There are plenty of reasons to run Mana Leak over CSpell in a tempo heavy deck like Counter-Slivers or UG Madness, for instance, as there's reasons to run Wild Mongrel or Muscle Sliver over Tarmogoyf. Situation affects which card is best. Your argument is simply wrong; few cards are objectively better than another in all cases.

And you can run Mana Leak because you have a shitty mana base and your game plan is to aggressively counter early threats. I know earlier lists of Landstill had 3 Mana Leaks which serve that purpose.

[Forbiddian]

Yeah, I should have also pointed out that other than Factories and Wastelands, you could actually splash another color (or splash blue and suddenly have countermagic). I mean, yeah, that's the obvious reason to run it. I'm retarded.

Leak should be compared more to Daze than Counterspell in that regard, and they're good in different decks.



But yes, some things are strictly better than others.

We have General Jarkeld in the left corner against Sorrow's Path in the right hand corner. Sadly General Jarkeld is pretty much strictly better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Losing to General Jarkeld has to be pretty embarassing.

And yeah, the point is there there's probably around 30, 40ish cards that can be called the Tier 1 of cards, but decks made from mashing those cards together at random with a supporting manabase tend to suck a lot worse than decks that focus on synergy. Ultimately, you don't play cards by themselves, you play them with at least 56 other cards. Counterbalance is actually an ironic example of this, since it tends to be pretty craptastic without Top. Or almost any tribal or combo deck. I mean, seriously. Wild Cantor?

[Natthew]

Not to pick nits, but Rune Snag is pretty much strictly better than Mana Leak if you're running it as a 4-of.

[Finn]

*sigh*
Natthew, you are playing the role of noise in the signal.

Are you certain you are familiar with the definition of "strictly better"?

[montanhas18]

I don't mean to derail the thread or start a flame war but Japan does not beleive in civil rights. While I was there, there were several places that refused to rent to non-Japanese and would openly say it in print all over the place and the government says its ok. In job ads they can ask for your age,race,religion and anything else they desire and there are few controls to keep employers from discriminating. Just count how many women you see running the trains in Japan.
Finally let me be clear, when I say they don't beleive in civil rights its not in a hateful way. Its just a subtle understanding of the way people in Japan feel things should be run.

I couldn't care less about the whole "Japan and civil rights" angle but I can't help myself...

Do you have some sort of problem with the spelling of B-E-L-I-E-V-E?

Just curious.

[montanhas18]

I hate Brazilians. With all my heart, I simply hate every one of the average Brazilian person. We grow up surrounded by examples that teach us to take advantage of others in every way and to be extremely arrogant and selfish. It's pathetic.

You could say exactly the same for Portuguese (I'm Portuguese, obviously), btw. Still, I never met a Brazilian I didn't like, I've been over there for WotC GP work 4-5 times and two weeks on vacation.

Thankfully since I work with three Brazilians everyday :laugh:

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I couldn't care less about the whole "Japan and civil rights" angle but I can't help myself...

Do you have some sort of problem with the spelling of B-E-L-I-E-V-E?

Just curious.

I do. It's completely arbitrary, following no specific rules of pronunciation. But that's pretty much the entire English language.

[Forbiddian]

I do. It's completely arbitrary, following no specific rules of pronunciation. But that's pretty much the entire English language.

GGNR.

[mercenarybdu]

It all has to do with traditionalism, where people discourage others from straying away from the pack with ideas that they might have discovered while tinkering with the format.

I find some nice niches in the format that the majority always tends to talk the person down to begin with then hands someone else the credit once the same idea ends up on top somewhere under that person's name. Funny isn't it?

[The Rack]

What niches did you exactly find?

[mercenarybdu]

What niches did you exactly find?

I and a few others start with Flash. I concluded that it was a dangerous card before there was a power lift on it. Nobody listened and when R&D did lift the power, the credit of discovery was handed to someone else with myself throwing at a brick at R&D's glasshouse to get their attention.

It's just a habit that people in the community tend to have when it comes to ideas like Zac Hill said at US Nationals 2008. Let's take FS for example: at first everyone called it horse shit, but when word got out about how good the set was the majority gave the credit to whoever wrote themselves in as the winner.

The same is even happening now with Eventide. Underrated and denounced at first, but then springs back up thanks to the people who took advantage of the prices to knocking back up through discovery.

Kamigawa Block might be down in the gutter at this time, but sooner or later someone is going to find another niche between those three sets and knock the prices back up. Saviors so far has only has Pithing Needle, Twincast and Kataki as it's good cards. Soon someone is going to find another set of niches in that set and someone else is going to get the credit for it.

[MattH]

You concluded wrong, then, because Flash wasn't dangerous before the errata. If you had predicted the un-errata itself, that might be worthy of some credit.

[raharu]

You concluded wrong, then, because Flash wasn't dangerous before the errata. If you had predicted the un-errata itself, that might be worthy of some credit.
I think he meant that he figured out the Hulk kill with Flash working in it's un-errata'd form. That was relatively un-thought of.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know if that's impressive. I mean, I once thought of a deck that was busted in half until I realized Wirewood Symbiote only let you use it's ability once a turn, but does having your RTFC moment later redeemed testify to skill or dumb luck?

[mercenarybdu]

No, I figured out myself that Flash was a dangerous card by itself even before and after the Hulk. I did some testing on a few "when comes/leaves play" cards to make maximum usage out of them.

The Hulk part came from someone else.

[The Rack]

No, I figured out myself that Flash was a dangerous card by itself even before and after the Hulk. I did some testing on a few "when comes/leaves play" cards to make maximum usage out of them.

The Hulk part came from someone else.

So let's get this straight, you are saying that you "discovered" Flashes potential before it's Power Level Errata was taken off AND before Hulk was even printed? What kind of creatures were you testing that had really good CiP abilities? Worldgorger Dragon?

[herbig]

Flash/Mystic Snake is sick.

I'm not really sure what he's talking about. Everyone knows the Flash combo was discovered by Bryant Cook.

[Forbiddian]

Flash + Mystic Snake is tech.

Flash + Flametongue Kavu so that you don't get card advantage. FTW.

Flash + Phage + Stifle at endstep!


WTF? Flash was garbage before Hulk. Flash Grozoth! Flash Sundering Titan! Flash Symbiotic Wurm!


What did you have in mind that made Flash decent before we all continue to laugh at you for pretending that you invented Flash Hulk.

[DeathwingZERO]

Flash Sundering Titan!

This is actually REALLY savage tech.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

But usually less effective than Show and Tell- Sundering Titan. I like having 7/10's in play.

[Priest of Titania]

blacklotus3636


Dur... your entire arguement is basically your belief that Americans should be more "creative" just based on being liberal. And that the Japs should be more conservative because they are not...


Lets see, all this technology that's being imported to America from Japan...., you know, all the video games....cell phones.... anime.....you know that kind of stuff... etc... hmmm.... I wonder how those non-creative Japs over there in Japan come up with these things....


I know Americans are proud of being liberal and all, but sheesh, I hate it when you people assume everyone else in the world desires to share the same ideology.

being liberal doesn't make you better, it doesn't make you more creative, it doesn't make you any better as a nation, Japan isn't oppressed and they don't envy you for being liberal. They'll do it their way, and you'll do it yours.

Creativity ain't got nothing to do with this anyways.

[mercenarybdu]

So let's get this straight, you are saying that you "discovered" Flashes potential before it's Power Level Errata was taken off AND before Hulk was even printed? What kind of creatures were you testing that had really good CiP abilities? Worldgorger Dragon?

I remember a few of things I had in that deck, but here is how the plan went:

Dual Lands
Fetchlands
a few basics (I am running Titan, so I don't want to kill too many of my own lands off of my own cards)

4 Koko (rips out life)
4 Keiga (steals creatures)
4 Sundering Titan (kills lands)
2 Havoc Demon (kills guys)
Some additional triggered ability creatures which I have forgotten about before mid-2006

4 Flash (the engine)
4 Force of Will (obvious)
4 I Scepter (to make maximum use out of Flash)
cards that helped fill the deck which I have forgotten about (most were mainly spells you would find in a reanimator deck to cards that would put those creatures back into my hand such as Reaping Graves)

no SB

[Forbiddian]

4 Sundering Titan (kills lands)
...
no SB

AHAHAHAHAHAHAH OMG! You have Flash+Sundering Titan.

I thought of that first!!! See my post earlier! (c) 2008 Forbiddian: Flash Sundering Titan for the most expensive Sinkhole in the world!

[mercenarybdu]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAH OMG! You have Flash+Sundering Titan.

I thought of that first!!! See my post earlier! (c) 2008 Forbiddian: Flash Sundering Titan for the most expensive Sinkhole in the world!

Actually you didn't. I had that idea posted on a different forum originally.

What happened was that they didn't like it for bias reasons, and a few days after the posting, they deleted it like a bunch of winners. So even if I were to show proof of my claims, the winners would just dictate to you otherwise like what the Western Nations want people to believe on the start date of the Second World War.

[Wigglytuff_Rimjob]

Actually you didn't. I had that idea posted on a different forum originally.

What happened was that they didn't like it for bias reasons, and a few days after the posting, they deleted it like a bunch of winners. So even if I were to show proof of my claims, the winners would just dictate to you otherwise like what the Western Nations want people to believe on the start date of the Second World War.

You see, the problem here is that you are under the delusion that you matter. And you dont, of course, and obviously didnt discover Flash. People knew about Flash almost 10 years ago when it first received the power-level errata, I believe for its interaction with Academy Rector. You can keep trying to play victim and wonder why no one listens to your bad ideas and awful lies, though.

Take it easy. No need to get all cranky about it.

-PR

[aTn]

It's even more obvious when you look at non-eternal formats, everyone knows they're going to be the ones with the new and different deck.

Not so sure... as far as I can tell, Guillaume Wafo Tapa, Olivier Ruel, etc. are not Japanese...

[Jak]

I remember a few of things I had in that deck, but here is how the plan went:

Dual Lands
Fetchlands
a few basics (I am running Titan, so I don't want to kill too many of my own lands off of my own cards)

4 Koko (rips out life)
4 Keiga (steals creatures)
4 Sundering Titan (kills lands)
2 Havoc Demon (kills guys)
Some additional triggered ability creatures which I have forgotten about before mid-2006

4 Flash (the engine)
4 Force of Will (obvious)
4 I Scepter (to make maximum use out of Flash)
cards that helped fill the deck which I have forgotten about (most were mainly spells you would find in a reanimator deck to cards that would put those creatures back into my hand such as Reaping Graves)

no SB

So you made this before the errata was taken off Flash?

[mercenarybdu]

So you made this before the errata was taken off Flash?

Yes, I did and people just acted like winners over it by writing it out.

[Jak]

Yes, I did and people just acted like winners over it by writing it out.

So you payed two mana plus their mana cost just to play them at the end of your turn? Sounds swell. You can't be serious right now, lol.

[Aethan]

Viable decks are like viable living organisms - there are only so many archetypes that work. If you take a truckload of cards and pick 60 at random you are, the vast majority of the time, not going to have playable deck. Fewer still are going to win consistently. Of those that win consistently, fewer still will be able to hold up against the other consistent winners. These decks are the decks to beat.

It's not that there is a lack of creativity, it is that there are simply only so many ways of making a championship quality deck. Once those are found players are, justifiably, reluctant to make any changes because the deck already is proven to work. A lot of testing must be done before any changes are accepted because players are unwilling to compromise a winning deck unless they can be fairly confident that there is an improvement.

Nature does the same thing with living organisms. Only certain body plans and behavioral strategies can survive and reproduce when competing with other organisms. Once a successful organism is developed nature is extremely reluctant to alter it. Take the crocodile. They have lived for hundreds of millions of years, essentially unaltered, because they are very good at surviving and reproducing - at winning. Just as winning organisms don't change much, winning decks don't either. The only time they do is when their environment (cards in the format) changes.

So feel free to design all the new decks you want if that's your thing, it's not like some thresh deck is going to jump out of the bushes and eat you. That being said, if you are looking to design a deck that is going to be competitive... well, you have your work cut out for you.

[Wigglytuff_Rimjob]

Yes, I did and people just acted like winners over it by writing it out.

No, you did not. And I dont think "winner" means what you think it means, you appear to not have a very good grasp of English...


So you payed two mana plus their mana cost just to play them at the end of your turn? Sounds swell. You can't be serious right now, lol.

I dont think thats what he was trying to say, though we can never be sure from the way he speaks. I think he was just Flashing in subpar creatures to do cutesy things rather than win the game, so he says anyways...

[mercenarybdu]

Okay, enough about Flash, the whole thing was all experiemental from start to finish like everything else I have tried to make work.

The Flash thing has been said over 3 pages and is starting to stray everything off topic. So let's focus back on topic okay?

[Captain_Morgan]

Conservative approaches (when balanced wisely) make for a good environment, excess leads to distress. Personally, I'm actually liking this format more and more.