MYOS Tournament Inquiry Thread

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, there's been some interest in this. Questions:


1) Do we keep the format as is as of the Invitational? Do we alter something, and if so, what?

a) The banned list: Remove the block banned cards? Add current or past Extended banned cards?

b) Add new sets? Dual lands are probably just too good, but 4th seems almost balanced. What about Portal? Portal/P2/3K could be an entire block by itself; I think that'd be balanced. But what about the first six expansions? We could divide them in two, but then the latter (Dark/Fallen Empires/Homelands) suck noodles. We could have the first five just be one block; that's not much larger than Time Spiral, most of the cards suck, and no one cares about Homelands.

2) Who wants to run this thing? I don't know anything about running an online tournament. I'm assuming MWS.

3) I'm going to scrounge around for what I have, but who else wants to kick in prizes?


That's all for now. Mainly I'm interested in thoughts about banned cards/older sets.

[C.P.]

A change would be interesting. We can call it Source MYOS or something. Mainly it would be inserting older core sets (4th and Rev, at least) and Older blocks (Portal as 1 block, AN - LG -AQ as a block, and Homeland, Fallen Empire and The Dark as the third).

Banned List may prove better if you just used Legacy banned list and start from there. and we can ban stuff if needed.

[Captain_Morgan]

The banned lists for Block are annoying, like Rebels for instance. Without Sivvi, they sort of lose a lot of their tricks. However, Affinity though can be sort of "meh, maybe..." or an "oh ya."

[Lego]

Mainly it would be inserting older core sets (4th and Rev, at least)

I think the duals are probably too good for this format.

[iOWN]

Duals aren't necessarily too good, but they would certainly make Revised the core set. With that said I don't see any harm in making Revised legal and banning Duals.

[Lego]

Duals aren't necessarily too good, but they would certainly make Revised the core set. With that said I don't see any harm in making Revised legal and banning Duals.

I don't know what it offers you at that point. Braingeyser? But I don't see any harm in it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Animate Dead, Ankh of Mishra, Armageddon, BEB, REB, Control Magic, Counterspell, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, Kird Ape, Lightning Bolt, Mana Flare, Mind Twist, Nev's Disk, Paralyze, Serendib Efreet, Winter Orb...

Beats the crap out of 8th, anyway. Unless you really want that Plow Under...

I'm torn. Of those all, mainly I'm leaning away from Lightning Bolt. And I guess Winter Orb. Plus, StP is one of Ice Age's main selling points. It seems to undercut the block a lot.

[Shion]

I think the core set's are fine as they are for MYOS. I'm sure that wizards gave some thought to including at least 4th. But the core set's seem more supplementary to the 2 other blocks then they do as your main deckbuilding set. I think Revised would invalidate most of the other core set's in that capacity.

[edit] Also I agree with getting rid of the block banned list, as it makes some block's pretty worthless.

[Lego]

Animate Dead, Ankh of Mishra, Armageddon, BEB, REB, Control Magic, Counterspell, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter, Kird Ape, Lightning Bolt, Mana Flare, Mind Twist, Nev's Disk, Paralyze, Serendib Efreet, Winter Orb...

Right. I meant, like, other than that stuff :wink:

EDIT: Also, without the Block banned lists, and with very little thought on my part, doesn't Urza's combo run rampant?

[Elfrago]

EDIT: Also, without the Block banned lists, and with very little thought on my part, doesn't Urza's combo run rampant?

And Affinity too :eek:
I guess the format is well balanced as it is...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Uh, with the Legacy banned list, what's so terrifying from Urza's block? Raffinity seems potentially worrying, however. But the Extended banned list might be a better fix.

[Eldariel]

5th already has the most:
Winter Orb
Armageddon
Nevinyrral's Disk
Sylvan Library
Dark Ritual
etc.

So much of the 4E stuff is already in 5th that it shouldn't really be a problem. Although 4E does make StP and Bolt commonly available (making Ice Age even worse in turn). Unlimited would contain Berserk, Sinkhole, Control Magic and that's about it. I think those wouldn't be broken; 7th, 10th, 5th and 6th still have a reason to exist (and 9th and 8th have Blood Moon).


My take:
-Allow older cores without Duals (seriously, with duals the new cores lose all meaning).
-Keep the present B&R list, but just do selective unbannings. My take for the changes would be as follows

Remove:
*Artifact Lands (Mirrodin-mechanics other than Affinity are also disabled without them)
*Thawing Glaciers
*Zuran Orb
*Rishadan Port (Masques is bad enough...)
*Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
*Aether Vial (outside Affinity, Mirrodin doesn't really lend itself to a deck that would want to use Vial, so as long as Affinity remains banned, the card should be fair)

Add:
*Cranial Plating

My experience is that Cursed Scroll, Affinity and company have earned their place. Cursed Scroll only because Tempest is nuts enough already.

-I think the natural Block-additions are good. Fallen Empires may seem crappy, but an aggressive black deck with Order of the Ebon Hand, Hymn and company could very well pick it. Red deck could get Ball Lightning, Blood Moon and few others. White also has some options. And then there's the ubiquitous Maze of Ith. So while it wouldn't be amazing, even the block could be played in some decks.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Are Lorwyn/Morning Tide and Shadowmoor/Eventide one block, or two?

[Captain_Morgan]

They rotate at the same time, it's a "mega block"

[marit]

I agree with Eldarial, but I think the Portal sets should be one block.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree with that. However, can anyone present a good reason not to make the first five expansions (Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, the Dark, Fallen Empires) all one block? I think people are forgetting that Legends was the only one of those significantly out of the 100 card range in size, and that most of the cards in the early sets either completely sucked or were busted. And most of the busted ones are banned.

[Eldariel]

I agree with that. However, can anyone present a good reason not to make the first five expansions (Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, the Dark, Fallen Empires) all one block? I think people are forgetting that Legends was the only one of those significantly out of the 100 card range in size, and that most of the cards in the early sets either completely sucked or were busted. And most of the busted ones are banned.

I just don't really see a reason to make it a 6-set block (may as well include Homelands - maybe somebody picks it for Merchant Scroll). I mean, there're existing imbalances already and we aren't going around fixing those, so I feel making the "natural" blocks is simply the cleanest way to go about it, especially with absolutely no experience with the sets in question in such a format.

But I digress - it probably wouldn't make all that much difference in the end since The Dark, Arabian Nights and Fallen Empires mostly feed aggressive decks (of different colors) while Legends is pretty much purely for control (and Chain Lightning), Antiquites just doesn't have much stuff worth anything without Workshops and company and Homelands continues being Homelands. Just the fact that there are 6 sets without a block somehow makes the whole "make two blocks" feel more natural than "make one f*cking huge block".


Also, the Urza-block B&R list could probably be revised. Most of the broken stuff in the block is already Legacy-banned, so while it's still very much playable (with stars such as Academy Rector, Goblin Lackey, Priest of Titania, Plow Under, manlands, Back to Basics, Show and Tell and so on), some unbannings are possible. Enchantress-style decks may be a tad strong with Serra's Sanctum and swarm-decks (Elves, perhaps Goblins, etc.) would really get a boost from Gaea's Cradle. I'm not sure if either of those would be busted, but there's the possibility. Still, the cards are something to consider.

[Kadaj]

There's probably some stuff on the Legacy Banned List that doesn't necessarily need to be there anymore either given the nature of MYOS. I'm still trying to figure out how Grim Monolith is too good for MYOS, for example, but that might just be me being an idiot.

Cursed Scroll should probably also stay on, even though it's not busted individually. As Eldariel pointed out, Tempest is already nuts, and it doesn't need more help in that regard.

[MattH]

Wow I am glad to see this! This format was great fun, and quite balanced.

I say:

-yay to Portal (does this enable anything worthwhile? Recruiter in Aluren? Sea Drake in some random blue deck? is someone going to bust out 8geddon.dec?)
-yea to using the Legacy banned list
-nay to using the block banned list (oh boy thawing glaciers)
-don't worry about affinity (format will adapt - there's plenty of hosers, and it gives the first iterations something to focus on)
-BIG nay to duals
-nay to revised in general, just to
-yay to 4th ed.


Unlimited would contain Berserk, Sinkhole, Control Magic and that's about it.
Control Magic was also in Revised and 4th.

Revised: what new cards does it bring to the format besides Regrowth, assuming no duals? Basalt Monolith, Braingeyser, Copy Artifact, Fork, Serendib Efreet, Sedge Troll. That's about it, and much of that wouldn't ever be used.

Unlimited (assuming Revised was added) provides even less - Berserk, Sinkhole, Gauntlet of Might (heh, no.), Forcefield, and uh...Ice Storm?

Yes, Revised would make deckbuilding easier on some folks (let them have Bolt and Kird Ape both), but the entire point of this format is having to make trade-offs with your sets. I don't think it's right to make decisions on the basis of coddling players who want ALL their toys. And it seems like it would be easier to just not include UNL/RV than say "include it, but not the duals."

[dude 666]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what's MYOS?

[Eldariel]

Make Your Own Standard, a format that was introduced in this year's Invitationals. Choose two blocks, one core set and build a deck following Block- and Legacy-bannings.

And Matt, I just don't see anything good coming out of allowing Cursed Scroll, Affinity or few others. We already have Dredge as a forced SB target, I don't think we need another one, especially since there're even more blocks without good artifact hate than there are ones without good graveyard hate (although few cores do have a few extremely powerful ones).

[iOWN]

Maybe this would only complicate the format, but we can possibly add "Make Your Own Ancient Block" as a choice, which would encompass any three of the six early sets.

(Rather than clumping together the three good sets and the three bad sets.)

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm quite pleased with the deck I threw together in less then ten minutes. I'd love for this to happen.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The three "good" sets would be Legends, Arabian Nights and Fallen Empires. Eldariel's right, Antiquities really doesn't have much that's not banned.

I'm inclined towards simplicity. I think the current core system presents reasonably balanced choices. I think 5th onward is a good way to proceed.

Pick-3 for the first five + Homelands seems reasonable to me, although a little clunky.

I'm also leaning towards just doing the Legacy banned list. The block banned lists present a lot of problems; if anything, it'd be more fair to ban cards that had ever been banned in a Standard environment, for obvious comparative power level reasons.

[KillemallCFH]

I like the idea of having the ancient blocks, but the "Make Your Own Ancient Block" seems clunky and unnecessary. I also have to say that I'm very against allowing 4th as a core set, if only for Mishra's Factory. Mutavault is ubiquitous in the current standard/block; I don't want the same thing to happen to its mostly superior counterpart.

[Illissius]

I think we should use a union of the Legacy, Extended, and Standard banned lists, but not the Block ones. The format is somewhere between Standard and Extended/Legacy, but it's definitely way past Block so it makes no sense to use those. (Basically, if Cursed Scroll wasn't banned in Tempest Standard, why ban it in Make Your Own Standard?)

[Atwa]

I have to agree with Illissius. This isn't block, so why use block's banned lists?

[Eldariel]

The biggest problem is the interblock balance. The worst thing that could happen is some block being just way over every other block - that would cut the deck construction options to one-tenth of those that exist in the open format. My experience is that Cursed Scroll is fairly nuts in MYOS (my first deck was RDW with the card, oblivious of the B&R lists, and the card was just won vs. everything from Survival to Goblins to Fish).

In Standards, the blocks were never combined with blocks besides the ones in immediate consecution. Therefore, the balance versus those was never really relevant. In MYOS, it's a bit different. There should definitely be less bannings than there are in blocks, but there should also be more bannings than there are in e.g. Legacy simply because the overall powerlevel is lower. Legacy list is an excellent starting point since as we've seen, it works. However, we could take a page out of old Standards and Extendeds and see what kinds of bannings those have had.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As far as I can tell, if we sweep-banned every card that had been banned in an Extended or Standard format without being later unbanned, we would add the following cards to the banned list (on top of the Legacy list);

- Dark Ritual
- Survival of the Fittest
- Replenish
- Goblin Lackey
- Ancient Tomb
- Arbound Ravager, Disciple of the Vault, Artifact Lands (but not Aether Vial)
- Lotus Petal
- Mind Over Matter

MoM and the Artifact lands I'm skeptical about, but I don't think it hurts anything either. I say run with it.

[Eldariel]

Artifact lands definitely shouldn't be banned - they invalidate pretty much every deck you could build out of Mirrodin (save for Vedalken Shackles). As long as Ravager, Cranial and Disciple are banned, they should be safe. Cards like Shrapnel Blast, Thirst for Knowledge and company would be playable with artifact lands - otherwise I have no objections.

[MattH]

And Matt, I just don't see anything good coming out of allowing Cursed Scroll, Affinity or few others. We already have Dredge as a forced SB target, I don't think we need another one, especially since there're even more blocks without good artifact hate than there are ones without good graveyard hate (although few cores do have a few extremely powerful ones).
Eh, I suppose you're right. I just really hate the idea of banning very safe cards like Thawing Glaciers, just to also ban Disciple of the Vault. Luckily IBA's proposal to use Legacy+Standard banned lists solves that problem, while also making sense with the whole 'standard' part of MYOS.

What are the reasons NOT to just combine AN-AQ-LG-DK-FE-HL into one block? Are any of those reasons good? Like someone said, it's not much bigger than the last two blocks, and since (being generous here) 90% of the cards are completely useless, I don't foresee any problems.


As far as I can tell, if we sweep-banned every card that had been banned in an Extended or Standard format without being later unbanned, we would add the following cards to the banned list (on top of the Legacy list);

- Dark Ritual
- Survival of the Fittest
- Replenish
- Goblin Lackey
- Ancient Tomb
- Arbound Ravager, Disciple of the Vault, Artifact Lands (but not Aether Vial)
- Lotus Petal
- Mind Over Matter

IIRC the very first Extended also banned Juggernaut and Kird Ape, but I doubt anyone wants to use that clunky old thing.

Also, Aether Vial IS banned in Extended.

The one thing I am most sure of is that, at least at the format's inception, you want to be able to explain the entire ban lists in as few words as possible. Simplicity is king when trying to convince people to try new formats. "Legacy list plus every standard list" is short enough; making specific exceptions (for example Eldariel wanting to re-allow artifact lands) is just going to cause confusion, even if it would result in a more interesting cardpool. Those kinds of specific bans or un-bans ought to come only after the format is well-established.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I believe that Serendib Efreet, Juggernaut and Kird Ape were banned for a while, but were all subsequently unbanned. And yes, I forgot the current Extended banned list, ironically enough. So add Aether Vial to that list.

I think Artifact Lands can be excepted. There's some precedent for this, the way that Dual Lands were excepted under old Extended despite not being part of a legal set. If it was a specific tailor-cut list of exceptions I would agree that it was too clunky to work.

So, I think the format rules are roughly agreed upon as followed:

Legal sets:

All 5th + core sets.
All real blocks.
Portal sets as one block.
Old standalones sets together as one block.

Banned List:

All cards banned in Legacy, all cards that were permanently banned from a Standard or Extended format with the exception of the artifact lands;

- Aether Vial
- Ancient Tomb
- Arcbound Ravager
- Dark Ritual
- Disciple of the Vault
- Goblin Lackey
- Lotus Petal
- Mind Over Matter
- Replenish
- Survival of the Fittest

[Elfrago]

With that list I guess Goblins is the best deck in the format.
Yeah, it loses Lackey, but I remember that goblins and (maybe) Affinity led to the Banning of Aether Vial in extended, so I guess it's still too good.

[Eldariel]

Actually, Goblins are fairly good but very beatable even with Lackey. Onslaught/Urza/10th Goblins are vulnerable to sweepers simply because they don't have Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Aether Vial and Ringleader. So most control-decks can deal with them, and they're somewhat weaker against other aggro too as they lack the midgame "I win by drawing a billion cards"-gear. Things like WW just rip Gobs a new one.

Without Lackey, the go-to block is probably Invasion (for Ringleader getting Matron from 7th) or Lorwyn (for Rb base with Weirdings, Wort, Mad Auntie and so on).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, the biggest weakness seems to be that Ringleader is amazing, but the only other card Invasion really offers is Dralnu's Crusade. Without Ringleader, though, you're much more vulnerable to sweepers. Although there's always Bidding.

Anyway, who's going to volunteer to run this? I neither have nor know where to get the tournament organizing program that's normally used. Also, prizes. As soon as Allen gets my tradebinder back to me, I'll see what I can donate.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Interesting banned list, Storm and other combo decks are unlikely. Ice Age/Ravnica/core set MWC?

[Atwa]

When taking a shit I got this idea:

Should we also take together all the box-sets and make them into 1 block? Things like Deckmaster, Beatdown, Elves vs Goblins, that kind of things.

Not that many people will pick them (although a premade goblindeck can be appealing), but the option could be cool.

EDIT: What about Starter and Starter 2000? Put them with the portal series?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think we need the special sets. That seems to complicate it without adding much of value.

What the fuck? No one wants to step up to bat and run this thing? Someone point me in the direction of a system that lets you count tiebreakers/randomly generate opponents.

[Elfrago]

Of course the only way of running this is using DCI Reporter.
I've never used this before, but I guess I can figure out how it works to run the tournament.
This, of course, unless someone more experienced wants to do it.

[Eldariel]

I'd run this, but with a couple of other tournaments and my studies, we'd be running 2-3 week rounds just so I'd have time to do all the TC crap. So better if somebody else took it.

[Nihil Credo]

DCI Reporter isn't difficult to use at all. Do a fake test tournament first and you'll get how the program works quite easily.

If one of you wants to run this thing and can't register as a tournament organizer (to download DCIRep 3.0), PM me with your email, I'll send you the 2.9x version.

[Atwa]

I can say for sure I won't be able to run it. I'm not even sure I can play in it.

What are the idea's about starter and starter 2000?

I'd say we just stuff them with the portal sets. I'm not going to pick it as a stand alone set just for the Tutor. Or we should just ban the sets.

[Elfrago]

Also, what shall we do with Timeshifted cards?

[Atwa]

Also, what shall we do with Timeshifted cards?

Those are part of Time Spiral, aren't they?

[Illissius]

Yes.

[Phantom]

As far as I can tell, if we sweep-banned every card that had been banned in an Extended or Standard format without being later unbanned, we would add the following cards to the banned list (on top of the Legacy list);

- Dark Ritual
- Survival of the Fittest
- Replenish
- Goblin Lackey
- Ancient Tomb
- Arbound Ravager, Disciple of the Vault, Artifact Lands (but not Aether Vial)
- Lotus Petal
- Mind Over Matter


Can someone post the entire banned list or point me to where I can find it?

[Eldariel]

Add Legacy to those. Also, I listed the "normal" MYOS B&R in this thread.