I am an infractor...

[jazzykat]

I was playing at my locally DCI sanctioned tourney where I am often victorious but I believe everyone knows I am very honest. Last night I was in G3 and I was close to winning with a counterbalance/top out and a single 4/5 Tarmo to my opponents single exalted, another tarmo was in hand.

I topped during my upkeep: i.e. picked up 3 cards...but I mixed the cards (top of library and hand) and just plain forgot. A spectator, my friend...called the judge over and he gave me a game loss. Thus I lost the match as that was game 3. The judge ruled that way with his reasoning that he wanted the tournament to go faster since we were the last game.

Anyway, I get that what I did was wrong and it was a mistake and I realize that in a vacuum it looked like I was a savage cheater...however if I put the cards back like I was going to I imagine it wouldn't have looked as bad, but could there have been any other penalty less severe because short of getting DQed or getting banned that was about as stiff as it gets considering a match loss would have resulted in the same outcome in standings.

[WiLdFiRe]

You putting the cards into your hand resulted in a game state that couldn't be rolled back to how it was before, because there is only you to vouch for what was there or not. Why do you have a problem with getting a game loss for making such a silly mistake?

[cdr]

Jazzy:

The number one goal of the DCI Penalty Guidelines is consistency. The first thing a judge has to learn is that you do not start at "game loss". The penalty is a result of an infraction, so you start with determining what infraction has occured and then apply the appropriate penalty as proscribed by that infraction.

So what infraction occured here? You "illegaly moved cards into your hand" - quite obviously Drawing Extra Cards. What's the penalty for Drawing Extra Cards at Regular (causal) enforcement? A Warning.

Unfortunately, your judge is likely not even a certified judge, and probably has no training in how to handle penalties. We don't get his side of the story, but from what you say it sounds really bad - giving a game loss "to make the tournament go faster" would be very wrong, as you seem to have felt. On the other hand, the game loss being the same as a match loss/DQ is irrevelant.

If you're friendly with the person that judges, try to (nicely) dicuss what happened so that he can learn from it.

Bonus: Also much more important than the penalty is the fix - if Drawing Extra Cards is a Warning at Regular, how do you fix the game? First; you only do specifically what the PG says to "fix" the infraction, which might be nothing. Judges do not attempt to determine "fairness" with a fix, just apply the PG.
PG on DEC: "If the game is to continue, return the cards to the zone from which they were moved (or random cards if the identity of the cards is not known to all players) and, if necessary, execute the action correctly."

[jazzykat]

Why do you have a problem with getting a game loss for making such a silly mistake?


I don't have a problem with a game loss for the infraction if that was the right thing to do. However, if you get a game loss because "I want the tournament to finish faster and I don't really care about what's fair" is not right. If it was, "I think you are trying to cheat, so take this as your warning" I would be offended but it would be justified.

@Akki: Thanks for the thoughtful explanation. The judge is kind of a tool and is too lazy to report the tournaments to the DCI (at least when I win) let's see if he does it if I take a loss... Basically, while I think speaking to him would be the right thing to do but I think it may hurt more than help.

[cdr]

Lateness in reporting tournaments is unfortunately all too common. Fortunately, with the new Wizards Play Network sanctioning program, the DCI is getting a lot more strict about reporting.

If you really think you have a case of him only reporting timely when you don't win, plus this game loss situation, you may want to e-mail the DCI and they will talk to him. You shouldn't have to put up with that at sanctioned tournaments.

Also, "I think you are trying to cheat, so take this as your warning" is not justifable in a DCI sanctioned tournament for the reasons I wrote about before. If you're running sanctioned events, you have to play by the DCI's rules. Maybe you just meant if game loss was the penalty called for by the PG.

[Bardo]

Same thing (sorta) happened to me recently (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10178) (G2, R1). I'm not sure what REL that tournament was, but apparently one where "Drawing Extra Cards" - Game Loss. :( My first and only warning. Fucking sucked when I had the game won and got careless.

Anyway, sorry to hear that, I'm sure it was a total bummer. Hopefully you took something away from the experience, that was the only way I could feel better about it.

[cdr]

Same thing (sorta) happened to me recently (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10178) (G2, R1). I'm not sure what REL that tournament was, but apparently one where "Drawing Extra Cards" - Game Loss. :( My first and only warning. Fucking sucked when I had the game won and got careless.

That was a Competitive enforcement level tournament (hallmarks being decklists and significant prizes).

Most everything is a warning at Regular since the emphasis is on learning and having fun, but at Competitive penalties are more significant - Drawing Extra Cards is a game loss.

Situations where players disagree are the toughest for judges - the easy thing is to just say "his opponent says they were in his hand and no one else saw it, game loss", but I would hope a good judge would dig a little in that situation - especially if you were adamant that the cards were always seperate. I'm not saying I wouldn't have given the infraction, but a little investigation would definitely be called for.

In the end, such situations often come down to who the judge believes more, and figuring out who to believe is one of the most difficult skills to develop as a judge.

[jazzykat]

@Bardo: You know what really sucks, I read your report and I knew you got nailed for it. I was so tired that day, my company is under new management and I was working to make sure they didn't make the same mistakes again. Everyone who regularly plays against me knows I don't need to cheat (I know that sounds arrogant, but most people play the best cards they have (not very good) and/or don't focus on legacy (my sole and dedicated focus)).

@Akki: Competive enforcement? This judge is way off base...we have 16+ players every week, and 1st., 2nd., 3rd. get 3,2, and 1 pack respectively. There are no decklists.

All in all, I am concerned that talking to wizards would only get them to remove their sanctioning altogether. I enjoy Legacy, but my local meta is trash so I actually compete against myself and am trying to go undefeated for as long as possible so that I can have as high a DCI rating as possible. I wish I had awesome opponents with all the best cards and newest tech but we take what we can get :(

[cdr]

@Akki: Competive enforcement? This judge is way off base...we have 16+ players every week, and 1st., 2nd., 3rd. get 3,2, and 1 pack respectively. There are no decklists.

Yeah, I was replying to Bardo. As I said above local tournaments like the one you go to are obviously Regular. I might not be surprised if your judge didn't even know what an enforcement level was.

And don't worry about the DCI revoking sanctioning - it's really hard to get them to do that, even in cases of outright fraud (I've tried). My goal would to be to have your judge be encouraged to improve. I might even be able to find out who the local L2+ is in your area - L2+s are responsible for training and educating. Although in NM, pickings probably are slim.