Online Stores Ripping People off on Newly Discovered Old Cards?

[Anusien]

I knew about the Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void combo from an IRC message about the time it became known here, and I figured the card would jump up to about $5 from $1 once it became public. So I went online to Magic Arsenal and ordered 12 at $0.89 each. I received three automated e-mails, saying my order was received, ready to be processed, and then shipped. Of note:

Dear Kevin,

Your order has shipped from our warehouse. You should not receive any future emails regarding this order.

For your reference, here is what you ordered:

Order Contents:
-------
- 12x Helm of Obedience, Alliances
Condition: NM | Language: English, $10.68
-------
Subtotal: $10.68
Shipping: $2.34
Tax: $0.0
Total: $13.02

Then I get an e-mail from them that says this:

Hi, on your latest MagicArsenal.com order you have been limited to 4 NM Helm of Obedience. You have been completely refunded to whatever source you paid from (credit card, PayPal, etc.). I'm sorry about this inconvenience but we try to keep all cards in stock especially on hot cards like this so other customers may have a change to buy them. Your order has been shipped and should be arriving to you soon. If there is anything I can do for you or if you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
I also check my credit card and I haven't received a refund yet (this was around 5PM, and still haven't received one to date). But I figure maybe there was a problem, maybe they just ran out sometime between ordering and processing (though it's unlikely since I have three e-mails confirming purchasing 12). So I e-mail back and ask:

Hi Kevin, we do have them in stock but we have limited your order to 4. This is because we had a sudden rush of people buying that card because it was under priced. I'm sorry about this but when something like this happens, our stores policy is to limit every order to a playset. I hope this has answered your question and if you have anymore, please don't hesitate to send me an email.
This claim is based on this off their Policy page:

MagicArsenal.com Inc. reserves the right to cancel any order outright or limit the quantity of part of an order at any time for any reason without prior notification. You will be immediately notified of the reasons your order was canceled, and any payment you made will be refunded immediately. Orders are very rarely canceled. If for any reason your order is canceled and you have not received a full refund for those canceled items, please call us at 425-605-0682 for a swift resolution of this matter.
So I still haven't received a refund, and it looks like they're still not going to ship me out the 12 Helms I ordered. Helms are selling on their website at about $4 each, so they're really doing an extremely shitty move over less than $25! They have the cards in stock (and in fact listed as sold out on their website, but the guy confirmed to me that they have them), so they're just arbitrarily gouging people.

Anyway, don't buy from them. You'd think for $20 they'd be willing to try and make the customer happy, especially since this is the second of my orders that has gotten screwed up in less than a week.

[Sims]

As shitty as it is, Kevin, I'm not really surprised. I don't intend to play Devil's Advocate, that's Keanu's job, but I can understand the store not wanting to lose money over something such as this. When large amounts of people suddenly start highly demanding cards that are older and have not seen use hardly at all, a store is going to want to get a cut on that sudden jump. If it's a jump that is tied to an interaction with a newer card or change in the way a ruling works, they're really going to get upset if they sell the cards at 1.00 each and then lose (between all potential transactions) a few hundred dollars. Is this shitty, yes... and I don't condone it. Stores and players alike have to suck up their losses from time to time for missing out on something... Afro does it with Portal/Starter cards, I've done it with various cards, and I'm sure everyone else here has at one time or another.... But I can see the business end of it that they want to limit their losses as best they can.

It would seem, if they're listed as out of stock but had confirmed through other means that they have the cards, that the likely course of action is limit all the orders placed at the "undercost" to a playset... hold onto the extras and then wait a few weeks and list them at the new price as fresh merchandise. Limits their losses and gives them a chance to recoup on the leftovers... Something more and more stores in general, not just online, are doing regardless of how shitty a business practice it is from the consumer standpoint.

[Anusien]

It's not surprising, but it is kind of shitty. I saw something like this happen to Rich Shay with SCG over Strategic Planning. He posted about it online (like I'm doing) and they decided their reputation was worth more than a hundred bucks or so. This is literally a case of what, $20? And it's not even clear how many Helms would sell at the current price since I think the entire price jump is pure speculation. So basically if they want to value a few cards over their reputation, I want to make that public. But if they can make things right, I'll gladly retract my statements and back them again. But until they do, I'm never buying from them and I'm going to spread this story.

I strongly encourage anyone with similar experiences at any site to share their story. That's how we as an internet community find out who is legitimate and who is not.

Btw, all it would take is to not list your full stock on older cards. Don't want to sell out of a $1 card that you could sell at $5? Either continually update the price, or just only sell cards in 20 card batches. Yes, it's a pain in the ass. That's the price you pay for trying to gouge people.

Also, it's unclear this is entirely legal. I can't get hold of any of the Magic playing lawyers, but isn't this sort of thing comparable to a contract?

[DeathwingZERO]

At least they were honest enough to flat out give you the reasoning behind it. A lot of other stores wouldn't even say that, they'd just say they sold out, a few days later they'd put them all back up on the site at a higher price, and say they got an influx in from some random void.

I'm split on what I feel about things like that happening. On one hand, I find it discouraging when trying to get extras to trade off to people I know would want to put said concept to practice. At the same time though, limiting people to a single deckset per order is a very fair way of making sure everyone gets a chance at them, because anybody attempting to buy more than that is just trying to make money off them later (something the shops are intending on doing, not the customer).

I know a number of shops that limit people's orders to a deckset arbitrarily, and will delete all future orders of said card unless the person actually calls or emails them to request to buy additional ones, usually at a different rate. Another business approach that people have scoffed at, but I find absolutely fair.

[Giles]

The same thing happen to Mav676 but with Flash.

EDIT: I wonder what they do if you called them and say "I will be contacting my lawyers." Or "I am a lawyer"

[Papillon]

... I can understand the store not wanting to lose money over something such as this. When large amounts of people suddenly start highly demanding cards that are older and have not seen use hardly at all, a store is going to want to get a cut on that sudden jump.

This is the less well known caveat venditor -- seller beware. If Anusien had bought SDT from the store just before the B&R announcement, I doubt he would be able to cancel his order because the card was now banned in Extended and the price had dropped. Similarly, the store shouldn't be able to cancel his order just because a new combo has been published and the price of skyrocketed.

IANAL, but when you buy something from a regular brick-and-mortar store you form a contract to buy the item. The situation should be the same from an online store. The question though is whether or not the stores policy forms conditions in the contract. Probably in order to answer that question for sure you would need to take the store to court, which doesn't seem worthwhile for $25.

[slyfer]

It's a shitty market.
I am responsible of the price of strategic planning in Italy. As soon as I saw the report of DeMars Control Slavery, and the hype over Strategic planning, I immediately post a message on "buy" sub-forum, titled "I buy 4x strategic planning, 100 euro each cash"
Believe me! people pm-ed me saying "hi, I have 2 of them , so 200 euro ok?"
And people started posting over "sell" sub-forum, "4 strategic planning available, 100 euro each".
That really suck!
It's only hype hype over shitty cards, we create a ghost-value over a piece of paper! LOOOOOOOL

PS: of course I didn't buy any strategic planning.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Good news:

That's illegal.

Bad news:

The damages are too small to get anything done about it.


I doubt it's going to help them any in the long run to have that kind of reputation, but some people are short sighted and thus end up hurting themselves and others. Such is life.

[Belgareth]

Firstly it is very common for things like this to happen (it did with flash and the marauding wall etc), no it's not fair but I've had many similar emails :(

This is why I usually buy at least a playset of any card I think may be useful when a set is released (as long as the prices are not pre-inflated).

Secondly as IBA said it's Illegal.

Thirdly, you can just spread this information across multiple online sites causing them much much bigger loses than if they had complied with your order.
After all things like this make people very annoyed and unlikely to shop there and even if the card jumps a huge amount they probably lost more just from your opening post.

Oh and the combo isn't even that great so I don't see the price going to high.

[Anusien]

This is 100% breach of contract. According to the laws of my state, Texas, our agreement qualifies as a contract, and your failing to fulfill the terms is a material breach of that contract. And no, a mistake on one party (your pricing the item below what you think it is worth), does not make the contract void.

We had an agreement for you to sell me 12 items at a stated price. I still haven't received a refund (which makes this also bait and switch, which is a form of fraud), and I'm not sure I would accept one. If you're willing to rip me off over a matter of less than $25 (how much you'd make by selling the 8 extra helms at $3.49 instead of $0.89), I'm simply going to tell everyone. I've already started posting the story of how you unilaterally and illegally decided to change my order on the forums of a few prominent Magic the Gathering websites. As long as this continues, I'll continue to post status updates to those sites, and warn people not to buy from you all. I'm sure your reputation will suffer more than $25 you stood to make. I'm also perfectly willing to put this story in my column at Star City Games, which I'm sure will interest a lot of readers.

Do the right thing. When Star City Games made a similar mistake over a matter of hundreds of dollars, they fixed it and looked like real heroes as a result. I posted this story on the same thread so people have something to compare your business practices to.

Kevin Binswanger

[Peter_Rotten]

In my experience, the little guy always loses. However, I'm still rooting for you and want you to keep us posted of the situation.

[Ewokslayer]

Crap, now I have to add Magic Aresnal to the list of stores not to buy from.
I need to write this shit down.
I am having troubling remembering all the sites that suck.

[MTG Guru]

Small claims court? It's essentially free and you're able to fix problems like this very efficiently. It also won't cost you a dime.

[Ewokslayer]

Small claims court? It's essentially free and you're able to fix problems like this very efficiently. It also won't cost you a dime.

I am pretty sure that assumes that your own time has no value.

[Skeggi]

I am pretty sure that assumes that your own time has no value.

Yeah, Anusien's bad-mouthing campain all over the internet will have quite a big effect too. Gogo Anusien! Bring them down! :cool:

[Hoojo]

Wow, I actually liked MagicArsenal. If they don't fix this, I'll have to drop them. I enjoy ccgdecks.com draft engine when I'm bored.

[Anusien]

Wow, I actually liked MagicArsenal. If they don't fix this, I'll have to drop them. I enjoy ccgdecks.com draft engine when I'm bored.
I've dealt with them before, and I want them to fix it because they're usually one of my go to websites. If I haven't heard from them in a couple of hours, I'm gonna give them a call.

[Fons]

I usually stick to cardkingdom.com and have never had an issue.

[yawg07]

Damn, I like MagicArsenal, too, but ugh they can't tell NM from "Holy Shit these foil City of Brass are fucking played, you dumbasses"-condition.
Regardless, I'll drop them from my contact list too if they don't fix this.

[Sims]

I usually stick to cardkingdom.com and have never had an issue.

While I order from CK from time to time, especially sleeves, I gotta admit that I'm not a fan of the pricing. I know it's a store, they're in it for money, but there are some cards there that I can pick up on Ebay or Cardshark for a few bucks that are still like 10 dollars there.

[Fons]

While I order from CK from time to time, especially sleeves, I gotta admit that I'm not a fan of the pricing. I know it's a store, they're in it for money, but there are some cards there that I can pick up on Ebay or Cardshark for a few bucks that are still like 10 dollars there.

It's true there prices are high, however I have never had any kind of problem with them. Plus there website is set up really well.

[Ectoplasm]

Slightly offtopic but I saw the same thing happening to dream halls, a dutch cardsite had loads of them in stock for €0.75 apiece, the new b/r list rolls in and they sell out the same day :)
I guess poor Michiel lost a lot of money that day, and IMO it's understandable to some degree to try to avoid getting 'ripped off' by your own customers.

[FoolofaTook]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, how is an individual store supposed to know the value of a given card in a small window of time? These places go out of business (both brick and mortar and web-based) all the time and most of them can't afford to lose out on value because the wider community has suddenly discovered a card and it's value is skyrocketing but they got bought out by somebody in the vanguard at a very cheap price.

There is a difference between somebody discovering something and buying out the card pre-emptively weeks or months before it is widely known and somebody coming in right before the flood of orders likely to occur and doing the same thing.

The right answer probably is that sites should not sell more than 4 of a card in a given order, and if they're really smart not sell more than a third of their stock (or something like that) on a heavily stocked card in any given 72 hour period. That's how they'd minimize losses when a card suddenly quintupled in value as Helm of Obedience is doing.

Did this site have a 4-of policy clearly stated or did they make this up to deny you the cards? In the former case then it was an oversight on their part (unless they fail to ship you 4 HoO at $0.89) and their reputational liability should be limited. In the latter case then it's their bad business practices that led to the loss and they deserve whatever opprobrium comes their way.

BTW, if the combo stays legal Helm of Obedience is worth a hell of a lot more than $5 in my opinion. It's going to spawn a series of maindeck Leyline of the Void decks where few were possible before and make combo and threshold and dredge very unhappy.

[TheAardvark]

Arsenal is terrible anyway. I have ordered from them twice, and both times there were several issues (not updating stock/prices, delays in shipping the order out, etc.). I find them to be the worst online store I have ever dealt with in any form.

As far as their chicanery here, it's typical of any store. This happens to at least one person every single time a situation like this comes up, be it an older card suddenly shooting up (or speculating it will), or a new card that was "missed" when they priced everything. It will never change, but I wish you luck on a happy resolution.

Oh, and for the record, I pretty much order exclusively from Strike Zone and TOGIT. Strike Zone has really weird pricing sometimes, especially with nonfoil versions being higher than foils and such, but I've never had any problems with any of my orders, and they constantly update their stock. TOGIT has the best prices more often than not, but they are out of stock on a lot of stuff at certain points. I just tend to supplement my orders from each to cover the other's weakness, and it's all good.

[Skeggi]

Just to play the devil's advocate here, how is an individual store supposed to know the value of a given card in a small window of time?

Check the forums. Like this one. It's their job to know these things. We all saw Helm of Obedience price raise coming, and it's not even our job.

[Afro]

So I still haven't received a refund, and it looks like they're still not going to ship me out the 12 Helms I ordered. Helms are selling on their website at about $4 each, so they're really doing an extremely shitty move over less than $25! They have the cards in stock (and in fact listed as sold out on their website, but the guy confirmed to me that they have them), so they're just arbitrarily gouging people.

Not to sound like a dick but get over it. Most sites have it so you can't purchase more than 4 of any given card for this very reason. You are getting upset because you thought you could 'Mike Glow' a website on speculation that this card will go through the roof because of a casual combo deck and they caught on. You specifically buying 12 of this dime rare made them go "WTF deck is this card used in now!?" and they found out.

Many other stores according to mtgnews.com's search feature are still selling them for under 2.00. Continue buying this shit card through that avenue. Oh wait i guess it isn't worth the time if you only make $2 instead of $3 each!

PS - Who would have thought those 4 German Helms I bought off magictraders for .50 ea would be worth something 4 years down the road. Now I can finally unload them to suckers.

[Anusien]

Not to sound like a dick but get over it. Most sites have it so you can't purchase more than 4 of any given card for this very reason. You are getting upset because you thought you could 'Mike Glow' a website on speculation that this card will go through the roof because of a casual combo deck and they caught on. You specifically buying 12 of this dime rare made them go "WTF deck is this card used in now!?" and they found out.
I know the same website also ripped off Rich Shay in a similar fashion.
Had they just restricted me from buying 4 in the first place, that would be different. But they didn't, they let me play the order which should be binding. Had the card never gone up in value (or even down!, maybe the combo didn't work the way we thought it did), they'd certainly sell it to me.

[Anusien]

I'm glad to report there was a happy ending to all of this. I probably should have skipped all the e-mailing back and forth and just gotten on the phone. When I got the guy from Magic Arsenal on the phone we talked for a little bit and I explained my point of view. His thoughts were basically, "Look, I'm not trying to rip people off here, but I think this card is going to be incredibly hard to get in stock. I had a couple of guys (you were one of them) come in here and buy me out, and that's not fair to my other customers." which is a very relevant point. I've also suggested that he get the software in place to just limit the orders or limit the inventory so one or two people can't buy him out, and I think he's going to see about doing that in the future. Anyway, the guy I talked to, Jeremy, was very reasonable and he and I were able to work things out satisfactorily. I'll go ahead and point out that there have been three times I've had a question about an order of theirs, and this is the first time I had any trouble and we were able to resolve this. I no longer have any question about buying from them in the future.

[Bardo]

This is the less well known caveat venditor -- seller beware

Caveat emptor, similar with caveat venditor, at least in the US, became largely obsolete with the codification of the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) in the 1950s. UCC governs the transaction of goods between buyers and sellers. Every state has their own version of UCC, but they pretty much all boil down to the same thing: buyers and sellers (or merchants) have rights, even absent a formal contract; 2) in the event of a claim or dispute over the transaction, the courts look for reasonableness in whatever market the transaction took place in (e.g. the test of reasonableness when buying baseball cards is going to be different than if you bought a 20-ton HVAC system); 3) the parties can agree otherwise. This last point is going to be important in a bit.


Also, it's unclear this is entirely legal. I can't get hold of any of the Magic playing lawyers, but isn't this sort of thing comparable to a contract?

While I'm not an attorney, I am a certified professional purchaser (http://www.uppcc.org/current_certificants/certificants_search_results.aspx?cppbID=S) and can speak to some of this.

At first blush, it could almost seem like they're subverting one of the tenets of basic contract law: offer and acceptance. The merchant, by posting their inventory on their website (including pricing, quantity, etc.) is making an implied offer of purchase to anyone who visits their site. When you click to add items to your "shopping card" proceed to the check-out, submit your credit card information and click "Place My Order," you are explicitly accepting their offer. But that offer (and your acceptance) comes with strings.

Those strings are the terms and conditions that govern the seller's purchases and sales:

http://www.magicarsenal.com/policies

It's stated as a "policy," but you could interpret it as their exceptions to UCC or just the conditions of the sale. Most important is what they cited to you:


MagicArsenal.com Inc. reserves the right to cancel any order outright or limit the quantity of part of an order at any time for any reason without prior notification...

They are required to refund your money in such an event and will be in breach if they fail to do so.

I tried to go through one of their orders, but hit a wall when I had to log in, and I don't feel like making an account there. Your only real recourse is, if in the process of finalizing the purchase, you are not required to "accept" their terms and conditions or their "policies," that would really be sloppy on their end, but it's possible. If so, you could argue they you were unaware of their "policies," were not asked to consent to any additional terms and were under the impression the sale was final. They'll argue that they posted the link on the front page and is visible to all who visit their site. You could then argue it's unreasonable to assume their "policies" included their terms and conditions for purchase and sale. That's all out the window if you clicked any box that said, "I have read and accept MagicArsenal.com's policies," or something to that effect.

It’s pretty doubtful they’d forget to include that “consent” requirement, especially if they’ve been around for a while, and people in the internet era have an almost unconscious habit of failing to read such language (click-through software licenses, for instance).

Importantly, one party to a contract cannot unilaterally dictate the terms and conditions of the contract; there needs to be agreement or the mutual assent of the parties.

While it may be bad business, it's not illegal; they’re perfectly within their rights to do what they did.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I know that a lot of people have gotten this impression from watching television, but putting something in what resembles legalese on a piece of paper somewhere and getting people to sign it does not a binding contract make. "Fine print" chicanery doesn't work in real life. In fact, rather than working, it's liable to get you thrown in jail. So a disclaimer tucked away on a subpage somewhere on their website isn't really going to be enough to save them from basic contractual obligations; "You agreed on this date to sell me X for Y. I have the receipt. Your reneging is illegal." Perfect example, those contracts you sign when you go whitewater rafting saying you waive all liability if their total incompetence causes you to be raped and eaten by bears? That might discourage very gulliglbe people from suing, but it's not actually going to hold up in court. Signed pieces of paper have limited power.

Although, as I said, I'm fairly certain <20$ is too small to even go to Small Claims Court.

[Lego]

Perfect example, those contracts you sign when you go whitewater rafting saying you waive all liability if their total incompetence causes you to be raped and eaten by bears? That might discourage very gulliglbe people from suing, but it's not actually going to hold up in court. Signed pieces of paper have limited power.

I can second this. My father dated a woman once who signed a release form, went scuba diving, and wound up in the hospital. They claimed their release form waived them of all liability, but the judge ruled that their release form was illegal. You can't break the law just because you get a sucker to sign the line.

[Bardo]

I know that a lot of people have gotten this impression from watching television, but putting something in what resembles legalese on a piece of paper somewhere and getting people to sign it does not a binding contract make.

If the site's terms & conditions said something to the effect as, "By signing below [completing your order], you agree to sever your left testicle with a rusty butter knife, then pan fry and consume said testicle with a dash of sea salt," I would totally agree. But if it's in writing, you agree, and generally conforms with industry standards, then yes, it's binding and will be recognized and enforced by a court of law.

And to clarify, having something in writing doesn't make it a legally-binding contract. This is basic contract law 101 stuff, but to be enforceable, the contracts must contain certain elements:

* Consideration or exchange (quid pro quo; i.e. "I'll give you my money, you give me those Magic cards"). Something of value has to be exchanged by both sides for the contract to be enforceable. This is why, for instance, if your uncle (or whoever) wants to give you his car, you have to give him at least $1 (on paper, anyhow) to establish consideration.

* Mutuality. Both sides have to receive something from this exchange.

* Terms. The material aspects of the deal have to be articulated (e.g. prices, quantity, delivery, etc.)

* Competent Parties. Everyone agreeing has to have the capacity to enter into a legally-binding agreement. Courts don't typically recognize contracts entered into by minors, those with limited mental capacity, wasted off their ass, etc.

* Lawful Purpose. Court won't recognize contracts for activities that are clearly illegal. If you take a hit out on someone and they flake out and don't kill your guy, no court will recognize breach of contract here, since the contract was for an illegal purpose.

If all of the above are not present, then, you're right. Just because something looks "legalistic," doesn't mean anything -- it has to contain all of the above elements to establish legal sufficiency.

Basically, if you don't like the terms of the sale, take your money elsewhere. For volume purchase, you can also negotiate with the seller, saying, "I want [this thing from you], but I don't agree to [terms x, y and z]. If you want my business, I propose the following..." They can say no, but you can always try, though most online sellers aren't going to change their T&Cs for a $12 purchase.


So a disclaimer tucked away on a subpage somewhere on their website isn't really going to be enough to save them from basic contractual obligations

If it was buried somewhere in Exhibit F, section VIII (C) (1) (g), then, maybe. But the site's terms are clearly linked off their home page (and other pages) and, presumably, you have to agree to their terms before you can complete the purchase. Provided their practice is a reasonable industry standard, you have no leg to stand on. A small claims court, using Kevin's example above, would dismiss the claim and he'd have wasted his time.


Perfect example, those contracts you sign when you go whitewater rafting saying you waive all liability if their total incompetence causes you to be raped and eaten by bears? That might discourage very gulliglbe people from suing, but it's not actually going to hold up in court. Signed pieces of paper have limited power.

You're absolutely right. They're not really binding contracts (see above, no consideration, no mutual benefit), they're just a one-sided, "if you get hurt, tough shit" deal. Most "Release of Liability" forms aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Assuming there was a claim, at best, the raft company would be able to argue, "You knew this was dangerous, we told you, by signing, you understood the risks." That might limit their liability somewhat, but won't absolve it. Also, all of that goes out the window if the raft company was negligible and was responsible for you damages.


My father dated a woman once who signed a release form, went scuba diving, and wound up in the hospital. They claimed their release form waived them of all liability, but the judge ruled that their release form was illegal. You can't break the law just because you get a sucker to sign the line.

Exactly. The scuba company's owner must have been an idiot to think a liability waiver is like a Get Out of Jail Free card.

When I was a Risk Manager for Portland State University (in Business Affairs), we all knew those waiver of student liability forms weren't worth shit, but the prevailing logic was, "Meh, they can't hurt, right?"

Edit - Who the fuck mod'd my user name?! :(
Edit 2 - A little better.

[MTG Guru]

Does anyone have a rough estimate of how much Helm of Obedience will be worth in a few months? In a set with a $30 dollar uncommon that gives you a little clue as to how much a decent rare would be worth. Lake of the Dead is worth around $7 dollars at SCG.com, so judging from that, Helm might be $7 or higher since it's a better quality rare.

And don't flame me about the Force of Will comment, I realize that Helm will never be a staple in any format, but I'm just saying.

[DeathwingZERO]

Helm probably won't go above a few dollars, at best. The "combo" requires too much to be put into any shell (think Painter's + Grindstone), and most decks require a completely terrible manabase to put it online fast enough, and it's far too easy to get around (Krosan Grip, etc).

It's a nice little combo, but I'm doubting it's going to be another Grindstone fiasco.

[MTG Guru]

Helm probably won't go above a few dollars, at best. The "combo" requires too much to be put into any shell (think Painter's + Grindstone), and most decks require a completely terrible manabase to put it online fast enough, and it's far too easy to get around (Krosan Grip, etc).

It's a nice little combo, but I'm doubting it's going to be another Grindstone fiasco.

I mean, Anvil of Bogardan costs $4 bucks and who the hell plays that card?? I can see Helm going for around the $8 dollar range, maybe once it gains more exposure. People love dumb combos and the card is going to generate so much buzz, I have no doubts the price will go up.

[DeathwingZERO]

I mean, Anvil of Bogardan costs $4 bucks and who the hell plays that card?? I can see Helm going for around the $8 dollar range, maybe once it gains more exposure. People love dumb combos and the card is going to generate so much buzz, I have no doubts the price will go up.

Keep in mind the sheer number of Alliances boosters worldwide released. If it weren't for FoW being so easy to find, the packs would be very easy to get a hold of. That alone would keep the price down on Helm, seeing as it was originally a $20 card upon it's release. Anvil on the other hand, was a part of a set that had printing issues, and is a much cheaper and more efficient 2 card lockdown (Anvil + Chains), but very little play because of Chains incredible price tag.

The more important card of this combo is Leyline. It serves a function on it's own, and has little to no investment necessary. I'd see the card continuing to stick to it's $10 or so price tag (maybe even go up a bit), while Helm sits probably around $4-6, at most. The card is absolutely terrible on it's own, unlike Leyline, and you only really need 1 Helm in any deck that can search for it, while you want 4 Leyline's just to be certain to have them in the opening hand, sparing you more mana and time to invest in it's casting.

[Ectoplasm]

To be honest I'm just waiting for helm to get some errata, so you can't just grind an entire library for the investment of 1 mana.

[Michael Keller]

Keep in mind the sheer number of Alliances boosters worldwide released. If it weren't for FoW being so easy to find, the packs would be very easy to get a hold of. That alone would keep the price down on Helm, seeing as it was originally a $20 card upon it's release. Anvil on the other hand, was a part of a set that had printing issues, and is a much cheaper and more efficient 2 card lockdown (Anvil + Chains), but very little play because of Chains incredible price tag.

This is partially untrue. Alliances was originally a limited release by Wizards at the end of the Ice Age block after the fiasco that was Homelands. Packs of Alliances are moderately easy to find because there are no cash cards played competitively from the set anymore except Force of Will.

[Ectoplasm]

Then again, Alliances sold like mad because of (then) powerhouse cards like Kjeldoran Outpost, Balduvian Horde and yes, Helm of Obedience, so what today's lack of sales (if you can call it that) causes, the series makes up for by selling like mad back in the days.

[DeathwingZERO]

This is partially untrue. Alliances was originally a limited release by Wizards at the end of the Ice Age block after the fiasco that was Homelands. Packs of Alliances are moderately easy to find because there are no cash cards played competitively from the set anymore except Force of Will.

Alliances actually had a number of cash cards upon it's release. FoW was roughly $5-10, Outpost hit upwards of $15, Lake of the Dead $10-15, Helm of Obedience $10-15, Lord of the Tresserhorn $10, Balduvian Hordes $25-30, Misfortune ~$10, and a number of $5 or so cards. The set got hit by the same problem Ice Age did: they short printed it, then caught the demand and ridiculously over printed it at the last minute. If it weren't for the ease of getting FoW's in packs (I think the odds are like 1 in 8 packs? Don't quote me, I haven't opened a box in years) the boosters would MAYBE sell for $5 each now, alongside IA (though these numbers are now very skewed thanks to Cold Snap making everybody want to revisit the "true" Ice Age block constructed and draft days, IA boxes hit upwards of $150 and Alliances $200-300+)

The main reasoning behind the printing issue is that IA was just around the time stores started cracking for singles nationwide. The online surge hadn't happened yet (that started late Mirage block in a lot of cases), but the stores wanting to carry a number of singles for the boom that had just happened did cause IA, AL and Homelands (lol) to have printing issues, due to the demand. The demand ended up settling down before Wizards caught on though, and a number of boosters from that time frame went to distributors that were forced to chop the price to get rid of them. I can also remember a number of stores like Toys R Us carrying large quantities of packs at that time (about when Visions hit), as my first pack opened rare was Jester's Cap.

Those were good times.

[mercenarybdu]

Don't you check your sources before buying from them?

[FoolofaTook]

Does anyone have a rough estimate of how much Helm of Obedience will be worth in a few months? In a set with a $30 dollar uncommon that gives you a little clue as to how much a decent rare would be worth. Lake of the Dead is worth around $7 dollars at SCG.com, so judging from that, Helm might be $7 or higher since it's a better quality rare.

And don't flame me about the Force of Will comment, I realize that Helm will never be a staple in any format, but I'm just saying.

There are two considerations here:

1. Can a powerful engine be found to promote the Leyline/Helm combo?

2. Does Helm remain legal if the answer to 1 is yes?

If both of those conditions are met then Helm will go to the price you'd expect a Rare card in an ancient set to go to if it suddenly became very powerful.

Personally I think the answer to 1 is ultimately going to be no so you're probably talking $5 Helms forever.

[Mr.C]

While I order from CK from time to time, especially sleeves, I gotta admit that I'm not a fan of the pricing. I know it's a store, they're in it for money, but there are some cards there that I can pick up on Ebay or Cardshark for a few bucks that are still like 10 dollars there.

Can't complain. They actually sold me two english xiahou duns @ 7 a pop. And I got them.

[Magik321]

Mtgfanatic did something like that to me. Said they shipped 3 orders, I received nothing. No emails answered. On the 4th purchase, they refunded me again, when I asked about the previous 3 deals, they said it was due to the cards being too cheap. Thats totally bs. They sent me an email saying they already shipped. Note that these were orders 18 to 21. Order number 19 (I think, or one of the orders I did'nt receive) was amazingly removed from the database of my orders when I look back.

Heres what I posted on mtgs:


I would'nt even go close to mtgfanatic these days.

They did'nt ship 3 of my orders, never replied my emails. I had to do a paypal claim to get it back. They refunded my 4th order saying because they underpriced it. The price was the same for over a year now, after I bought it they told me that. It took me an email complaining to them before I even got the refund.

For the 3 orders. They emailed me saying they shipped. I never received it. Turns out they think its underpriced, returned back to the stock, raised their prices and never told me anything till I ask. No refunds nothing.

A friend of mine ordered from them, they removed part of his order, never told him anything, and refunded him in store credit. Not a single email from them again. The store is going down the drain these days.

Some of their replies to me. Note that the cards they were referring to were priced the same way since I made my first order more than a year ago. Obviously being a store they are pushing the blame to me.

Sent to me after I complained to them after paying and never gotten a word that they shipped.


I am refunding the money for your order and cancelling the order because those cards are significantly under-priced so we can not sell them for that value. I apologize for the late notification, but I made a huge update to our website last week and then there was a holiday this weekend.



I was wondering which order you did not receive a refund for via Paypal. The orders were not shipped because the items were all significantly under valued. It is different if a bunch of items are ordered and happen to contain an underpriced item. But when the only cards ever ordered are under-priced, it is cherry picking, and we reserve the right to cancel the order. I understand that you do not like this answer, and that it is unlikely for you or your friends to do business with us, but for all of the 21 orders you placed, you never once ordered an item that was at the correct value – only items that were quite under priced. I can offer you a refund for the order that you did not get a refund for if you please tell me which order it was.

[MTG Guru]

Helm probably won't go above a few dollars, at best.

Turns out you were wrong. SCG.com is now selling them for $5 dollars a pop. I bought 16 of them for $1 a peice and made an easy $64 dollar profit. Now I have more trade fodder to sling around.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I was wondering which order you did not receive a refund for via Paypal. The orders were not shipped because the items were all significantly under valued. It is different if a bunch of items are ordered and happen to contain an underpriced item. But when the only cards ever ordered are under-priced, it is cherry picking, and we reserve the right to cancel the order. I understand that you do not like this answer, and that it is unlikely for you or your friends to do business with us, but for all of the 21 orders you placed, you never once ordered an item that was at the correct value – only items that were quite under priced. I can offer you a refund for the order that you did not get a refund for if you please tell me which order it was.



Once you see our prices, you'll be a fanatic too!


lolwut

In fairness, you should've smelled the batshit crazy when a Magic site has a specific forum devoted to talking about Jesus.

[Lifeless]

I understand that you do not like this answer, and that it is unlikely for you or your friends to do business with us, but for all of the 21 orders you placed, you never once ordered an item that was at the correct value – only items that were quite under priced. I can offer you a refund for the order that you did not get a refund for if you please tell me which order it was.

I enjoy them implying you are at fault for buying cards at low prices. Why not just come out and say "Fuck you for trying to do business with us". Awesome.

[DeathwingZERO]

Turns out you were wrong. SCG.com is now selling them for $5 dollars a pop. I bought 16 of them for $1 a peice and made an easy $64 dollar profit. Now I have more trade fodder to sling around.

I will almost never go to SCG.com for cards, regardless of whether or not something hot comes out. About 95% of the time, they are way overpriced compared to anything else I would normally shop at. So to be honest, I'm not surprised.

Now if you started telling me that Ebay, MoTL, a majority of FMC vendors, etc.....then I'd probably admit fault. But not because SCG is selling them @ $5. Also, my later statement of a price range for it was $4-6, so turns out I'm still right :D When I say "a couple" in terms of price, it's usually anything from $2-5, or a "low-dollar" rare, if you will.

I will say this though: given the ridiculousness of a card like that becoming a combo piece, a lot of stores are going to try to gouge the prices as much as possible, seeing as they need to offer a decent chunk of change to get people to actually LOOK for them again in their collections. A few vendors on FMC are buying them for under a buck, while Strike Zone is offering $4 each. So I won't be shocked at this point if they try pushing $6-9 each on them, and some might follow along. Without the deck actually picking up major steam though, I don't see that sticking around.

[Lego]

I will almost never go to SCG.com for cards, regardless of whether or not something hot comes out. About 95% of the time, they are way overpriced compared to anything else I would normally shop at. So to be honest, I'm not surprised.

The only time I go to SCG is when I need 8-10 commons that I know will be cheap, and I want them from the same website to cut down on shipping costs. I know SCG is reliable, and they almost always have whatever I need at relatively cheap prices. I just don't go there for anything that's worth anything.

[Dan Turner]

If i need something fast i go to Troll and Toad, if I am willing to wait 4-10 days I always go to ebay I refuse to shop anywhere else since T&T is the only place that I have found that hasn't screwed me on a buy or taken forever to ship

[MTG Guru]

I like Troll & Toad as well, but SCG.com is very reliable and legitimate. I recently ordered 16 Helm of Obedience for a $1 a piece and they didn't pull any bullshit on me by holding them back, like they did with some other individuals. I guess I got lucky, but positive encounters like that have been common for me when shopping at SCG.com. To put it in shorter terms, I rather buy from a website that is gauranteed to give you the cards, than to take a risk at another website who's policies might differ. They're also starting to send me the product before my check even clears becuase I shop there so much. Lucky me. :wink:

[kirdape3]

I will almost never go to SCG.com for cards, regardless of whether or not something hot comes out. About 95% of the time, they are way overpriced compared to anything else I would normally shop at. So to be honest, I'm not surprised.

The difference though is that StarCityGames has to my knowledge never pulled anything shady with their shipping/payments/whatever. Sure, they're expensive, but you are going to get what you paid for and mostly on time (as in, they ship when they're supposed to but USPS is not as predictable).

In essence, you're paying a market premium for their integrity and reliability. Do I pay some of their prices? No, but I've gone to them for many items in the past and will most likely continue to do so in the future. The marginal cost of you know, actually getting my cards reliably is less than the marginal gain by not paying as much.

[Anusien]

The difference though is that StarCityGames has to my knowledge never pulled anything shady with their shipping/payments/whatever. Sure, they're expensive, but you are going to get what you paid for and mostly on time (as in, they ship when they're supposed to but USPS is not as predictable).

In essence, you're paying a market premium for their integrity and reliability. Do I pay some of their prices? No, but I've gone to them for many items in the past and will most likely continue to do so in the future. The marginal cost of you know, actually getting my cards reliably is less than the marginal gain by not paying as much.
Yeah, I've never had any problems from them. Plus I know most of their employees personally, so I feel like I'm okay. And not just in that "I can make a call and make shit happen" but they're also, from what I've seen, genuinely good people.

[Lego]

If i need something fast i go to Troll and Toad, if I am willing to wait 4-10 days I always go to ebay I refuse to shop anywhere else since T&T is the only place that I have found that hasn't screwed me on a buy or taken forever to ship

I've had a couple of orders from Troll & Toad that were listed as NM, and showed up Heavily Played.