[Brainstorming] Weenie reborn B/W

[Iare]

Well everyone knows that the printing of tarmogoyf brought the demise of White weenie and most other weenie decks that don't pack green or blue. As an aggro/tempo player at heart a I've been messing around with reviving the archetype via a black splash for beaters/disruption. Hopefully I can get some input on making it truly completive. Without further ado what I got so far ..


Creatures: 18
4x Savannah lions
3x isamaru, hound of konda
3x Jotun grunt
4x Carnophage
4x dauthi slayer

Spells: 21
4x Duress
4x Hymn To tourach
4x Snuff out
4x Reprisal
3x Armageddon
2x Reanimate

Lands: 21
12x Swamp
6x Plains
3x Flagstones of trokair


Sideboard:
4x Thoughtsieze
4x Jixilid Jailer
4x Patrician's scorn
3x Planar Void

Now to go over card choices some are pretty obvious such as the creature base (Ok, dauthi slayer should maybe be dark confident but if it was I would be more hesitant to side in thoughtsieze and or cast that snuff out ... Plus nobody blocks dauthi and confident never swings) Snuff out and reprisal are a pretty decent removal suite followed by sideboarded thoughtsieze for creature heavy decks. Patrician's scorn is complete and total tech against counterbalance .. All and all its not that bad, but I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what I could add/remove to make it a more solid deck. All input good or bad is welcome. Oh, and you should read reanimate it reads Pay two life take your opponents 30$ card and beat them in the teeth with it :laugh:

[Willoe]

Wouldn't Retribution of the Meek be better in Reprisal's slot? After all, taking out two goyfs is pretty nice, plus Retribution dodges Counterbalance. Well, that's a plus at least.

But still, Swords To Plowshares is better than Reprisal IMO :confused:

The mana base needs some work. Here's a sketchaul:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
5 Plains
5 Swamp

Unless you of course want to play Wasteland. Easy-peasy, -2 Plains, -2 Swamp +4 Wasteland.

I don't really get Armageddon in this deck. Sure, it's nice to achieve a better board position, but then Æther Vial would probably help you to break the symmetry. That's why you need 1cc removal. Like Swords To Plowshares, Vendetta or Ghastly Demise.

Also, your creatures could be better. They're just not fast enough. Jötun Grunt is nice, but Savannah Lions are rather meh, but maybe that's just me. Carnophage doesn't do anything relevant, either.

[Skeggi]

Dark Weenie
Lands (20)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures (24)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Savannah Lions
4 Serra Avenger
4 Silver Knight
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Isamaru, H. of Konda

Other spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
2 Vindicate
3 Duress
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard (15)
4 Gerrard’s Verdict
3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
2 Vindicate
2 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

From the Deadguy Ale thread. Quite a recent post.

[Dark_Cynic87]

they also have 6x more creatures than this list. Why is no one using the new creature that has pro white, pro black, pump, the ability to gain flying 2/1 for 1 and w/b w/b? There's also the Orders from Fallen Empires; Order of the Ebon Hand and Order of the White Shield (I think that's the white one).

So this is just a bad Deadguy list then...I see.

Pce,

--DC

[Skeggi]

they also have 6x more creatures than this list. Why is no one using the new creature that has pro white, pro black, pump, the ability to gain flying 2/1 for 1 and w/b w/b? There's also the Orders from Fallen Empires; Order of the Ebon Hand and Order of the White Shield (I think that's the white one).

Stillmoon Cavalier (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/95.html) Order of the White Shield (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/270.html) Order of the Ebon Hand (http://magiccards.info/fe/en/25.html)

The orders suck. Nantuko Shade (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/74.html) is much better; and is probably also better than Stillmoon Cavalier in this deck, dispite this being a 2-color deck. About the list: I C+P'd; it obviously needs work: 3 duress and 1 random Cabal Therapy, 4 Thoughtseize seems better. But I found alot of similarity between the two lists and the suggestions from Willoe. I'm not sure if it's bad per se, haven't seen it in action: perhaps it does surprisingly well.

[Iare]

Retribution of the Meek is a decent card but takes out grunt and everything I would want to use reanimate on. Yes this deck is similar to deadguy, but has a fundemental difference in strategy. Where as deadguy is more of a midrange deck using dark confident to power into the midgame on the back of card advantage and tech (Vindicate-jitte) both of which are slow. This deck is based on the weenie decks of yore with a splash of sui black. Quick early tempo cards establishing board position and drop Armageddon. I don't run swords your right I took them out for snuff out which is essentially free removal and doesn't gain them life just cuts mine down. And, since I'm not using confident via deadguy I can easily afford the life loss for the tempo boost it gives me versus 85% of the field. Oh and the manabase might look terrible but I see too many loams, wastelands, moons and back to basics to bastardize it. Reprisal is a good card just think of everything It gets rid of for a measly two mana (Tarmogoyf, werebear, tombstalker, tarmogoyf, opposing grunts,pit dragon, tarmogoyf), and has won me more games than I could care to count.

The creature base probably needs tweaked the most spectral lynx I keep toying around with, but has been quite unimpressive imo. Serra avenger comes down on turn 4 without vial and hopefully by turn 4-5 I'm casting Armageddon. Dark_Cynic87 I don't use the pump night because 1 its efficiency isn't up to snuff and 2 I blow up lands if anything id be removing carnophage/dauthi for mystic crusaders for the pro red/black which is on my list for testing.

So other then telling me to go midrange ala dead guy or telling me to scoop to wastelock any other thoughts?

[Dark_Cynic87]

What do you do when they Chalice @ 1 on turn 1 when they are on the play? That shuts down a crap-ton of your creatures...it seems like it really shoots your game-plan to shit. I'm pretty sure that's why Deadguy runs Vindicate--it's an anything-killer that just happens to be a bad cc for both Chalice and CounterTop. Speed isn't a big deal against those two cards.

I really wasn't being a jerk, btw; just being objective, and honestly I didn't exactly see the strategy you apply. Looked at it from a Deadguy perspective and just whiffed. My bad.

Pce,

--DC

[Iare]

What do you do when they Chalice @ 1 on turn 1 when they are on the play? That shuts down a crap-ton of your creatures...it seems like it really shoots your game-plan to shit. I'm pretty sure that's why Deadguy runs Vindicate--it's an anything-killer that just happens to be a bad cc for both Chalice and CounterTop. Speed isn't a big deal against those two cards.

I really wasn't being a jerk, btw; just being objective, and honestly I didn't exactly see the strategy you apply. Looked at it from a Deadguy perspective and just whiffed. My bad.

Pce,

--DC

Chalice at one is just another notch on the belt of cutting carnophage, and possibly finding a place in the board for disenchants. Counterbalance eats Patrician's Scorn postboard. More or less the deck Is trying to marry two other strategies, classic white weenie and sui black. Classic white weenie would use under costed/evasive threats quickly then resolve Armageddon so decks couldn't sweep or start dropping much larger threats and gum up the board. The archetype has existed as long as the game has. Deadguy pretty much dismisses a lot of what black has to offer in the form of disruption and tempo and instead runs 4 creatures that never attack which is counter productive to ending the game quickly (ala classic WW). I guess the question is will jotun grunt and mystic crusader play nice together and better fill out the curve. What do you think of this :

Creatures: 17
4x Savannah lions
3x isamaru, hound of konda
3x Jotun grunt
3x Mystic Crusader
4x dauthi slayer

Spells: 22
4x Duress
4x Hymn To tourach
4x Snuff out
4x Reprisal
3x Armageddon
3x Reanimate

Lands: 21
11x Swamp
7x Plains
3x Flagstones of trokair


Sideboard:
4x Thoughtsieze
4x Jixilid Jailer
4x Patrician's scorn
3x Planar Void

Basically just cut 4x Carnophage for 3x mystic crusaders and 1 more reanimate and 1 swamp for 1 basic plains. I'll get to testing it out tonight if anything I could see myself maybe wanting to drop 1 grunt or 1 reanimate for another plains or both for two night's whisper?. You think chalice at 1 is a big enough problem to sideboard disenchant?

[Skeggi]

You think chalice at 1 is a big enough problem to sideboard disenchant?

Yes - but besides that, there are plenty of other enchantments/artifacts you need to get rid off. Painter's Servant, Grindstone, Moat, Ghostly Prison, Counterbalance and so on and so forth.

[Iare]

Yes - but besides that, there are plenty of other enchantments/artifacts you need to get rid off. Painter's Servant, Grindstone, Moat, Ghostly Prison, Counterbalance and so on and so forth.

Read Patrician's scorn please :wink: Granted that doesn't take care of artifacts but it's free ;)

[kidsmokin]

Oona's Prowler, perhaps? Cheap, and it flies. Only thing is that it can serve as Madness for your opponent, but no one really plays it nowadays.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Oona's Prowler, perhaps? Cheap, and it flies. Only thing is that it can serve as Madness for your opponent, but no one really plays it nowadays.

yeah, and DREDGE, YOU KNOW, ICHORID?!?! Holy Zombies, Raccoon City...

G'God man.

[FoolofaTook]

Put Thoughtseize in the main and Duress in the sideboard. Playng a weenie deck you can't afford to whiff on a Goyf if it's there. Use Swords to Plowshares instead of Snuff Out if the overall life loss involved in playing both is too high. Thoughtseize and Swords to Plowshares are the gold standard in discard and removal respectively, playing a lesser combo in a BW deck is asking to lose games you shouldn't.

Edit: Just looked at the manabase. I'd use 2 Windswept Heath, 4 Polluted Delta and 3 Scrublands, along with 6 Swamps and 3 Plains. You would have 15 shots at black mana on turn 1 and 12 shots at white as compared to the current 12 at black and 9 at white. That'll make the deck much more consistent on turn 1 which is the key turn for a weenie deck.

[raharu]

Creatures: 20
Isamaru, Hound of Konda x4
Dark Confidant x4
Morther of Runes x4
Silver/ White/ Black Knight x3
Serra Avenger x3
Tombstalker x2

Removal: 8
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x4

Discard: 7 (maybe)
Thoughtseize x4
Cabal Therapy x3

Artifacts: 3
Jitte x3

Planeswalkers: 2
Ajani Goldmane x2

Mana: 20

This is what I was working with, but it ended up going more towards control... kinda. It's still 18 creatures, but it's not quite the same.

[f|i[p]]

I've brought a deck similar to this in tournaments a year ago If I remember correctly. Bunnies was the decks name. The most problems I encountered with that list was my threats not being big enough. Now we have tombstalkers as well

first of Im not so sure why ajani is in that list, vigilance and counters maybe?

One creature your forgetting to include is spectral lynx.It regenerates and has pro green. it answers goyf by itself.

Isamaru was never really needed in this deck, if your going for 1 drops, sarcomancy would be better as you can run negators main deck.But even 1 to cast 2/2 seemed underwhelming before,alot of other creatures can easily chump block it. Also we would usually want our first turn to be disruption so id still suggest you run 4 thoughtseize and 4 cabal therapy main.

If I were to run something like bunnies again with the additional new cards we have now. I would run something like this

20 Mana

18 lands
2 chrome mox (maybe even 4)

19 creatures

4 Mother of runes
4 Dark confidant
3 Spectral lynx
2 Jotun Grunts
2 Tomb stalker
2-serra avenger (can go to 3 depending on your land base)
2 phyrexian negator -- was always mvp for me along with mother protection

21 spells

4 Thought seize
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Swords to plowshare
4 Vindicate
3 Umezawas Jitte
2 cabal therapy

Sideboard

4 extirpate/Leyline I like extirpate better
3 engineered plague
3-4 duress
1-2 cabal therapy
2-3 armageddon

[Iare]

Well after a few hours testing this monstrosity out I actually pushed it closer to sui black.

Creatures: 17
4x Savannah lions
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Jotun grunt
3x Mystic Crusader
4x Flesh Reaver

Spells: 22
4x Duress
4x Hymn To tourach
4x Snuff out
4x Reprisal
3x Armageddon
3x Gerrald's Verdict

Lands: 21
9x Swamp
5x Plains
3x Flagstones of trokair
4x Scrubland


Sideboard:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Jixilid Jailer
4x Patrician's scorn
3x Planar Void

Changes that still need further testing are -4 Dauthi Slayer +4 Flesh Revears -3 Reanimate +3 Gerrald's verdict found room for 4 scublands although wasteland being around so much it can keep me from resolving Armageddon for longer than I'd like. Thoughtsieze got pulled from the board for Cabal Therapy because Flesh Reavers + Snuff Out + Thoughtsieze =/= tech. Mystic crusader has turned out to be a house versus more than I thought. So many decks use black or red for removal plus getting and maintaining threshold hasn't been too difficult even with 3 Jotun Grunts in the main. As always input is welcome.

[MTG Guru]

How is Reprisal better than Smother?

[Iare]

How is Reprisal better than Smother?

Mystic Enforcer
and
Tombstalker

[Twoshirty]

why reanimate? wouldnt unearth be alot better? (at least in your deck) just saying?

[f|i[p]]

why reanimate? wouldnt unearth be alot better? (at least in your deck) just saying?

He would like the option to reanimate the opponents creatures, specially if its a goyf..

[raharu]

Well, there's always:

Creatures: 24
Savanah Lion x3
Isamaru x4
Dark Confidant x4
Spectral Lynx x3
Wretched Annurid x2
Jotun Grunt x2 (or just not at all)
Serra Avenger x3
Tombstalker x3

Spells: 16
Thoughtseize x4
Cabal Therapy x4
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate* x4

Lands: 20

Redundant deck is redundant. It's just fast creatures, bombs, and a bit of disruption and removal.

*Other removal or something else would be fine here, I presume, but Vindicate is the best answer to artifacts and enchantments you could play MD, and it kills most everything.

[Aboroth]

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Duress
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Vindicate
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard (15)

3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
3 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate

There are 4 cards missing in SB. Any ideas?

[idraleo]

4 Duress


lol

Thoughtseize anyone?

[Peter_Rotten]

I don't think this thread is going anywhere.