Most overrated/underrated sideboard cards?

[Volt]

I guess I'm coming at this mostly from the viewpoint of blue-based aggro-control decks, but feel free to expand your answers beyond that platform.

1) What do you feel are some of the most overrated sideboard cards? (i.e. Cards that are frequently found in sideboards, but aren't really "all that.")

2) What are some of the most underrated sideboard cards? (i.e. Cards that see little play, but are actually quite good.)

Off the top of my head, I would say Extirpate and Annul, respectively. Let's hear your answers...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'd say Crypt for #1, but that could just be me. I shove it into any non-combo sideboard and I'm not positive it's that effective against Ichorid.

[kicks_422]

I can't think of any overrated SB cards at the moment, but I can think of something which is way underrated: Trygon Predator. Especially since most decks which run its colors pack it to Stompy-esque decks.

[Nihil Credo]

Overrated: Krosan Grip. If you absolutely scoop to a commonly played artifact or enchantment that is also commonly backed up by solid countermagic, then it's worth it. If that doesn't apply, it's a 3cc Disenchant.

Underrated: Back to Basics, Runed Halo, Misdirection.

[Jak]

Overrated: Krosan Grip. If you absolutely scoop to a commonly played artifact or enchantment that is also commonly backed up by solid countermagic, then it's worth it. If that doesn't apply, it's a 3cc Disenchant.

Huh? Counterbalance, Survival, Top, Dreadnought, Moat, Shackles, Humility, Blood Moon, Factory, Painters Servant, Grindstone, etc. You don't need to scoop to an artifact or enchantment for you to run Grip. Counterbalance being in play may not result in an auto loss, but it sure helps the opponent win.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Overrated: Pyroclasm. I just don't like it in the current metagame. Run 4 Blue blast and improve your Dragon Stompy matchup as well.

Underrated: Pithing Needle, Perish, Trygon Predator.

[Van Phanel]

Off the top of my head, I would say Extirpate and Annul, respectively. Let's hear your answers...

Hey, there is somebody else who likes Annul. This should totally be run in blue aggro-control decks because it answers about every problematic card for them (especially Deed, EE, Humility, Engineered Plague, Survival Edit: Oh, I forgot Counterbalance).

[KillemallCFH]

I wholeheartedly agree on Annul. I've been running it in my Merfolk SB for a while and I can say it is very underrated.

[Nihil Credo]

Huh? Counterbalance, Survival, Top, Dreadnought, Moat, Shackles, Humility, Blood Moon, Factory, Painters Servant, Grindstone, etc. You don't need to scoop to an artifact or enchantment for you to run Grip. Counterbalance being in play may not result in an auto loss, but it sure helps the opponent win.Yeah, but Krosan Grip is not the only way to kill all the stuff you listed. Seal of Primordium/Cleansing is 33% cheaper and can gain you tempo. Abolish is sorta-free. Harmonic Sliver, Trygon Predator, and Duergar Hedge-Mage give you a body. Oblivion Ring can hit creatures. Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are card advantage. And I haven't even touched on the solutions that overlap with Grip only partially (e.g. Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, etc.).

Each one of the above has "can be countered" as a drawback, but I think it's silly to say that their advantages never outweigh it; to take a trivial example, would you run Grip in Ichorid? Phyrexian Dreadnought is probably the only card in existence against which, regardless of the deck I'm playing, I'd rather have Grip than anything else.

(As I side note, knee-jerk running Grip is something I've been very guilty of. It just dawned me the other day, while playing a deck that didn't worry about countermagic at all, that I was running a 3cc Disenchant for no good reason.)

[frogboy]

Phyrexian Dreadnought is probably the only card in existence against which, regardless of the deck I'm playing, I'd rather have Grip than anything else.

Counterbalance.

The overrated sideboard cards vary from matchup to matchup, because they're usually bullets, and sometimes what they're stopping isn't really that relevant to the matchup.

I think Annul is actually really insane because it gets all of the most relevant cards against the decks it's in, but I think the best sideboard cards are ones that let you adopt a different strategy. The best example is probably something like Haunting Echoes.

[morgan_coke]

I think tsunami/choke are underrated because over half the decks in the format run large amounts of blue, and most decks with blue run island duals.

Of course, that also may be why they see limited play since no one wants to hit their own lands.

[Jak]

Yeah, but Krosan Grip is not the only way to kill all the stuff you listed. Seal of Primordium/Cleansing is 33% cheaper and can gain you tempo. Abolish is sorta-free. Harmonic Sliver, Trygon Predator, and Duergar Hedge-Mage give you a body. Oblivion Ring can hit creatures. Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are card advantage. And I haven't even touched on the solutions that overlap with Grip only partially (e.g. Pithing Needle, Engineered Explosives, etc.).

Each one of the above has "can be countered" as a drawback, but I think it's silly to say that their advantages never outweigh it; to take a trivial example, would you run Grip in Ichorid? Phyrexian Dreadnought is probably the only card in existence against which, regardless of the deck I'm playing, I'd rather have Grip than anything else.

(As I side note, knee-jerk running Grip is something I've been very guilty of. It just dawned me the other day, while playing a deck that didn't worry about countermagic at all, that I was running a 3cc Disenchant for no good reason.)

Stuff like Grindstone, Painter, Humility, Balance, Dreadnought, Crucible, Factory, Shackles, etc are all cards that usually get played in decks with counters. Plus, it hits EE and Deed which is important sometimes. Now, I am not saying every deck running green should run Grip because there are instances where one mana makes all the difference. I just feel that Legacy has so much variety that you will hit a MU where the Split Second matters a lot.

Also, Annul seems really good right now. I can't believe no one runs that card.

[Omega]

overrated :
I can't find one at the moment.

Underrated :
Choke, pithing needle (this card should be played more. It's 1cc and artifact)

I dont believe Grip to be overrated. Obviously, if you are just looking for the destroy arti/enc effect, there are cheaper cards. But overall, uncounterable naturalize is worth the extra mana.

I am not convinced on Annul... It seems too limited to me. Spell Snare is already sort of limited... annul is even more. But i guess it's worth a try in certain deck

Robert

edit : I dont find Extirpate to be overrated as a SB card. I think people are overrating it though :) Complex :). What i mean, is that Extirpate is really versatile. It just can be useful in many matchup. The same way it can be useless. It just depends how you play with it :)

Robert

[Deep6er]

I absolutely believe Extirpate to be overrated. The fact that people play that awful fucking card just boggles my mind.

Now, I speak with some authority here. I've played the card for years now, and I've been guilty of coercing other people into doing it (nitewolf9 for example). That card is awful so incredibly often, that it's never worth it on the occasions that it's good.

Truly, it's embarrassingly bad.

On the other hand, my new infatuation with Nevinyrral's Disk as a sideboard answer to Dragon Stompy has me happy in the pants. It's sheer elegance in it's simplicity (a cookie to whomever gets the reference).

[SuckerPunch]

I wholeheartedly second the Extripate is overrated opinion. It is perhaps the most overrated card that still sees play.

Also...

Overrated: Engineered Plague. It gets goblins, elves, and netages a single muscle sliver. That's just too narrow in the current meta to be sideboard material.

Underrated: Krosan Grip. It does exactly what a sideboard card should do. It stops a key threat. And it does so in a manner that it can't be countered, can't be bounce back and replayed, can't be misdirected, can't be responded to at all.

[Forbiddian]

I like Engineered Plague. It's not playable in this meta, but I haven't seen it recently, either, so I think people are catching on.


Tormod's Crypt is way overrated. There are better graveyard answers for most all decks, and it doesn't even always stop Ichorid. It slows them down by like 1 turn if they don't have a way to get rid of it and have to walk into it.

[Lego]

I wholeheartedly agree on Annul. I've been running it in my Merfolk SB for a while and I can say it is very underrated.

I ran it in my Cephalid Breakfast board one tournament, and literally brought it in for every single match. It's really hot.

[morgan_coke]

I think Extirpate is both over and under rated. Its exceptionally good at what it does, but it doesn't do what most people think.

[thefreakaccident]

I think cards like ghostly prison and propaganda are extremely underrated against ichorid.




I also concur on annul, that card is fantastic... although, the more I tried playing it, the more I just felt that spellsnare was just better (hitting survivals, challice @1, and CB is all you really need)...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Weird, I thought I posted in this.

Overrated- Extirpate and Krosan Grip. Like, yeah, whoot, Split Second is handy. So are Flashback and Buyback, but we don't have to play every card with that shit on it. Srsly. Krosan Grip is good, but it's not the end-all-be-all of Naturalize effects, especially if you also have White. It shouldn't be the automatic assumption that if you need a Naturalize effect you pick Grip; it's dependent on what your real vulnerabilities are. Goblins, for instance, I'd much rather have Naturalize.

Extirpate is just a bad card. There's better graveyard hate, a lot of which is actually cheaper than one mana. As a wannabe Lobotomy it's pretty piss poor too. It's effect is simply too small to invest an entire card in. I'd rather board in Cranial Extraction.

Underrated: Armageddon effects, including Ruination and Thoughts of Ruin. Like, control decks eat it to mass LD. I'm shooting myself in the foot here, but seriously, there's no describing how happy I am everytime I play against someone and realize they don't have this card up their sleeve.

[dahcmai]

Underated:

Dueling Grounds - It's amazing how many decks especially Meathooks and Goblins fall over to it. I've boarded it in against a Belcher deck that used Warrens also and got a good laugh out of it.

[fourleafedmonkey]

Underrated: Misinformation, Powder Keg and Dystopia

But I dont really know any overrated ones....

[Hopo]

Seedtime is totally underrated. I'd love to see that get more SB time.

[Skeggi]

Most overrated: peedle.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying Pithing Needle is bad. I'm merely making the observation that it is the most expensive sideboardcard and therefor easily is overrated.

[Piceli89]

Most underrated card: CHUB TOAD !!!
Most overrated card: every card that isn't CHUB TOAD.
Folks, go on ebay and buy e playset, this frog's going to wipe out the fucking tarmogoyf's ass.
LOL

[Skeggi]

Most underrated card: CHUB TOAD !!!
Most overrated card: every card that isn't CHUB TOAD.
Folks, go on ebay and buy e playset, this frog's going to wipe out the fucking tarmogoyf's ass.
LOL

Dude, The Chubb is obviously NOT a sideboard card.

[Mantis]

Most underrated sideboard card is Gaea's Blessing in my opinion although Ive heard quite a few good ones here as well. Gaea's Blessing is great against Solidarity and Painter/Grindstone decks while also coming in handy against Ichorid and Loam decks. I always have 2 of these when I play a green deck, usually 1 main 1 sideboard. And above all, it replaces when you use it.

Most overrated, I would say Pithing Needle. Extirpate also deserves a spot there.

By the way, Krosan Grip is awesome. The talk about being tempo disadvantage compared to Seal and Disenchant is just not true. Your opponent wastes a ton of tempo trying to set up a Counterbalance lock, or Enlightened Tutor for Moat, and it's great to be sure to have your spell not get countered so you just win that tempo. That it costs one mana more is not really as much as an issue as getting your Disenchant effect FoW-ed when you need it.

[Illissius]

Overrated:

Um. Echoing Truth I guess. I occasionally see it in sideboards and never got the point. It seems so weak.

In my very limited experience with a single deck, I found Meddling Mage to be underwhelming. I would rather have had Thoughtseize every single time. It's quite possible that it carries its weight in a different deck or against different matchups, though.


Underrated:

Mind Harness. Especially in decks which have a sacrifice outlet, for example Therapy.

Chill, in decks which can easily deal with Vial/Lackey. Especially ones with other forms of mana denial as well.

Sower of Temptation, in decks which are basically creatureless maindeck. It's a nice surprise.


Not overrated:

Extirpate. The only graveyard hate which can compete with this card against Loam decks is Leyline, but where Leyline is a crapshoot whether or not you draw it, you can dig for Extirpate. It lets you get rid of Wasteland permanently, without which Loam is a lot less threatening, or of course Loam itself, for only a single black mana. While Cranial Extraction is interesting, there's no guarantee you can reach the four mana to cast it against Wasteland recursion. Seriously if I could board like 6 Extirpates against Loam, I would. (This is from the perspective of a blue control deck.)

Engineered Plague. It would be overrated if people were still reflexively running four copies in every deck, but they aren't.



Phyrexian Dreadnought is probably the only card in existence against which, regardless of the deck I'm playing, I'd rather have Grip than anything else.

Even Ancient Grudge?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Underrated:

Darkness. Nobody sees that one coming.

[Finn]

Extirpate. The only graveyard hate which can compete with this card against Loam decks is Leyline, but where Leyline is a crapshoot whether or not you draw it, you can dig for Extirpate. It lets you get rid of Wasteland permanently, without which Loam is a lot less threatening, or of course Loam itself, for only a single black mana. While Cranial Extraction is interesting, there's no guarantee you can reach the four mana to cast it against Wasteland recursion. Seriously if I could board like 6 Extirpates against Loam, I would. (This is from the perspective of a blue control deck.)Really? I mean I think anyone can see that it is tailor made to kill Loam. But it's crapola against pretty much any other deck. In Legacy it's further hampered by the fact that Loam decks play Burning Wish.

Just play Crypt or Leyline which hose a lot more decks and have an imperfect solution to Aggro Loam.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Overrated: Leyline of the Void(there are some lists I see that should really be running Planar Void over this), Threads of Disloyalty, Engineered Plague, Trygon Predator, Jotun Grunt (sucks).

Underrated: Disenchant, Perish, Dystopia, Planar Void, Mind Harness, Tranquil Domain (Goblins, mostly because Plague is overplayed), Energy Flux (fuck you STAX), Leyline of Lifeforce (9Land Stompy and Elves-->eat a dick, Counterbalance, Chalice), Withering Wisps.

I have more but i gtg.

[Volt]

.

[Deep6er]

Actually, Leyline/Crypt is stronger than Extirpate anyway.

With Leyline, Crusher never gets big while milling away lands (which means they won't play it if you've opened on it giving you virtual card advantage).

With Crypt, you can shrink Terravore (it's just a natural byproduct with Leyline so not worth mentioning).

Since those are the two biggest threats outside of Tarmogoyf (which both cards have a minimal impact on), that's actually really strong.

No, Extirpate is just fucking awful. Every time I played a Loam deck I was happy to see my opponent play Extirpate. Because the card is awful.

[Pinder]

Underated:

Dueling Grounds - It's amazing how many decks especially Meathooks and Goblins fall over to it. I've boarded it in against a Belcher deck that used Warrens also and got a good laugh out of it.

While I'll agree that Dueling Grounds is underrated, I don't really think that MH falls over to it. Sure, they may not be able to attack with all of their guys, but just having those guys allows the dude they can swing with to beat for lots. But I might be a little biased.

I'm going to go ahead and second/third/fourth/whatever Annul here. I thought it was shit, then I re-read it and realized it could counter Enchantments. Which pretty much makes it the tits.

edit -


I have to admit, I totally forgot that card existed. I guess now I can stop splashing green in my black decks just for Fog.


Well, you're already splashing green for Tarmogoyf, right :tongue:?

[abbeyroad]

Not overrated

krosan grip and extripate. Extripate works wonders in decks such as cunningstill. It gives the deck a fighting chance against aggro-loam as well as other combo decks (graveyard and non-graveyard based). Krosan grip is extremely useful against cards such as, ee, deed, moat, humility, counterbalance, blood moon, top, back to the basics, lelyne of the void, dare i go on?

underrated

runed halo

overrated

BeB

[Fred Bear]

I know it's pretty narrow, but I think Guardian of the Guildpact is pretty underrated.

-FB...

[Frenger]

I disagree on extirpate. That card helps a ton against loam, if landstill doesn't extirpate wasteland, then it's a really tough matchup. After extirpating wasteland though, it gets a lot easier. It should be noted i also run crypt.

Underrated: Darkblast. does anyone even run this card? Kills all those pesky X/1s and wins the goyf/goyf standoff and its reusable.

Massacre. I would have thought this card had a home in combo SB's, maybe only if you have a lot of meddling mages in your meta, but still.

[Deep6er]

Not overrated

krosan grip and extripate. Extripate works wonders in decks such as cunningstill. It gives the deck a fighting chance against aggro-loam as well as other combo decks (graveyard and non-graveyard based). Krosan grip is extremely useful against cards such as, ee, deed, moat, humility, counterbalance, blood moon, top, back to the basics, lelyne of the void, dare i go on?

underrated

runed halo

overrated

BeB

Or you could just play Counterbalance and have a better than fighting chance against Aggro Loam.

Also, Extirpate is awful against combo decks. I've tried it, and it sucks. Royal. Fucking. Ass.

There is no matchup that I can think of that Extirpate would be better than Counterbalance (in terms of blue decks).

Loam? Why Extirpate when you can keep him from playing relevant cards like Burning Wish?

Combo? Why Extirpate anything when you can keep him from playing spells?

Any other fucking matchup? Extirpate is so goddamn narrow (while simultaneously being godawful) while Counterbalance is so incredibly versatile.

Even in base black decks the card is awful. I've tested it in a wide variety of black based aggro control/tempo decks and it's sucked just about every single time. Sure, the one time that you get all of his Tropical Islands (of which two are in his hand) is cool and all, but it RARELY does that.

The fact that the card is clearly incapable of affecting the board in any relevant manner is fucking huge. Split second? What the fuck ever.

The card is bad. Like, man-tits bad. Like crying into another man's bitch-tits bad.

[Brehn]

Overrated:
- Tormod's Crypt. It's good. But not good enough to see the insane amount of play it does right now.
- Leyline of the Void. This is not Vintage.
- Echoing Truth. What Illissius said.

Underrated:
- Extirpate. YEAH RIGHT I SAID IT.
- Karmic Justice. Fuck you, board control.
- Orim's Chant. Not just for Combo.

[Mayk0l]

Tormod's Crypt is overrated. It's run in almost every sideboard out there. More often than not, it has been sitting there doing nothing in mine. If Ichorid wasn't running rampant like it was, I'd run something else in the spot. It's just that a lot of decks, including DS, have nothing else to fight graveyards

Pithing Needle is good. I won't call it either under or overrated.

Overrated: Extirpate. There's better stuff out there.

Also, I like Disrupt a lot. I used to run it in Thresh to fight off Solidarity. Thinking back, that might not have been such a good idea what with Thresh already having a good MU against combo, but the card was always very strong.

[Volt]

.

[Solpugid]

I know it's pretty narrow, but I think Guardian of the Guildpact is pretty underrated.

I don't think the problem is it being narrow (as smother, swords, goyf, mongoose, shriekmaw, bolt, etc. etc. are all ineffective), but rather its high mana cost. Five mana should really yield more than a superb blocker.

[Deep6er]

I think Jailer is bad too.

Ichorid can still go shitty man plan with a Jailer on the table, and that means that Jailer can neither attack nor block.

If he attacks, Ichorid player will block with one of his shitty dudes and gets back to his original game plan.

If he blocks, the same thing happens.

He's too frail.

Wheel of Sun and Moon is an interesting card. I don't think it's found a good home for itself yet, and I'm hoping it might.

[frogboy]

I think Jailer is bad too.

mostly because he costs two; in game three it's too easy to get Therapied

[iOWN]

If Ichorid has to go shitty man plan, hasn't Jailer accomplished its job?

Edit -- Assuming it is in play. Although what frogboy said is true, it's a bit too slow.

[Brehn]

I think Crypt is bad.

Ichorid can still go shitty man plan after its graveyard has been removed.

After Crypt has been sacced, it can't block.

After Crypt has been sacced, it can't attack.

(O_o)

If for any reason Jailer is bad, it's because of his cost.

[Nihil Credo]

There is no matchup that I can think of that Extirpate would be better than Counterbalance (in terms of blue decks).First of all, just to say it, Ichorid. There, I'm pretty sure Extirpate beats Counterbalance.

Secondly, your post is absolutely irrelevant. Extirpate is a 1cc black instant. Counterbalance is a 2cc double-blue enchantment that requires, at the bare minimum, a fitting mana curve, Sensei's Divining Top, and enough search/filtering to consistently assemble the combo.

I would safely bet that from the printing of Planar Chaos to this moment nobody has ever thought "Hmm, I have these X free slots in my 75 cards, I wonder whether I should run Extirpate or Counterbalance in them".


(For the record, I think Extirpate is the tits for any deck that aims to win the long game (and, with few exceptions, only for those decks).)

[Deep6er]

Actually, since I was responding to somebody else's post about the card in Landstill AND I had added the statement (for blue decks), I thought that made it clear. Apparently not. In any base blue deck, I think Counterbalance is better.

Ichorid is not a base blue deck.

I've already said exactly what kind of tits I think Extirpate is, so I won't reiterate.

I will however say that I think you're wrong.


@Brehn: Granted, but as soon as you activate Crypt you don't have to worry about them accomplishing their plan anyway. Jailer sucks because he doesn't remove the graveyard, he just makes it inaccessible for awhile. That's bad because if they get rid of him, they regain access to it. Whereas with Crypt, they don't get those cards back. Plus, Jailer is so frail that you can't effectively use him as a creature (in the sense that he sucks at attacking and blocking).

[Nihil Credo]

I obviously meant against Ichorid, regardless of the blue deck you're playing.


@Crypt: Crypt is to Ichorid what Tivadar's Crusade is to Goblins, and Ichorid's discard outlets are their Matron/Ringleader/SGC. But sometimes a temporary sweeper is your most efficient option.

[Deep6er]

Actually, I've had some success using Counterbalance and counter magic in general to keep them from ever getting to discard.

So, no, I'd still rather have Counterbalance. It's because it's a better card.

Although, it was against Copenhaver (Bovinious/Tenant Tron/a bunch of other names) and we all know that I fucking hate that kid and think he's terrible. But, I totally 8-0'd him using various decks built around Counterbalance (none of them Threshold). Didn't drop a game. Granted, small sample size, but they were all in tournaments so that made me a lot happier. Of course, Copenhaver's never really done well against me in tournaments anyway.

[Volt]

.

[Deep6er]

I wasn't necessarily saying that.

What I was saying was the fact that I've had some success using Counterbalance against Ichorid.

Also, I generally prefer Counterbalance to Extirpate EVEN against Ichorid.

It's because I think Extirpate is fucking terrible. See?

[frogboy]

Also, I generally prefer Counterbalance to Extirpate EVEN against Ichorid.

elaborate.

[Deep6er]

It's simple.

If the choice is to be playing Counterbalance or Extirpate, then I'll choose Counterbalance.

The simple reasoning being that even though it will test poorly against Ichorid, it will still be better than Extirpate against everything else. Plus, since not every tournament is 100% Ichorid, it's likely that I'll face other matchups and in those matchups, Counterbalance will shine.

Incidentally, depending on your board hate, Counterbalance is better than Extirpate at protecting your board hate. For example, in It's the Fear, I use Tormod's Crypt. With Counterbalance, I can protect it from cards like Pithing Needle and Chain of Vapor in order to make sure that I can use it.

Extirpate can't protect shit. Because it's shit.

See? Very simple.

[Nihil Credo]

And we get back to my point, i.e. that Counterbalance and Extirpate have never in their careers competed for the same slots.

[Deep6er]

Absolutely.

Counterbalance is good at being a versatile card that helps you control the game state.

Extirpate is good at being a waste of cardboard and ink.

OK, NOW I'm done. :)

[idraleo]

I think that the most underrated sideboard card against Dredge is Offallsnout, wich did alway better than Extirpate or Crypt, but sees no playing because it is less polyedric in other matchups...

[xsockmonkeyx]

Dave: can you give an explanation as to why Extirpate is bad other than ZOMG THAT CARD SUXX0RS AND IS TOTALLY NOT COUNTERBALANCE!#!!#!

[Deep6er]

Sure.

There are a couple of reasons why I think Extirpate is bad.

1) It doesn't affect the board.

2) It hardly ever affects the game in a really meaningful manner.

3) In it's job as a grave hate, it's sorely lacking. Other cards are better.

4) Nine times out of ten, the card is card disadvantage.

5) In order to use it "proactively", you must combo it with another card. The fact that Extirpate requires you to use another card to make Extirpate good is telling. I'll grant you that sometimes the other cards are good (Sinkhole, Wasteland, Thoughtseize), but you'd be better served playing an actually good card instead of Extirpate.

6) Using it reactively is generally poor as well. As that means they've already successfully used whatever card it is you're hoping to stop. In the case of Life from the Loam, they're up +2 cards, while you're down -1. That's not the kind of trade you can continue to make.

I could keep going if you like, but those are probably the biggest primary points. I think Extirpate fails spectacularly at everything it seems designed to do, and that points to it being fucking terrible.

I played the card for months, and I've tested it extensively. I used to think the card was useful, but I was completely wrong. Months of extensive testing and tournament data has proven that Extirpate is bad.

[Isamaru]

I know this is weird... but I actually had 3x Extirpate in my UB deck's sideboard, and I was considering replacing them with 3x Counterbalance, because I play 2x Top MB.

Then I realized that Extirpate doesn't do anything except hit Narcomoeba in response to its trigger or take out Bridges, so I am now playing a combination of other things that actually decide the game if they are played.

Are 3 Duress and 4 Hymn enough SB for a UB aggro deck to combat Landstill? I have 7 slots I can dedicate to the match, and I don't know what to use it on. I was considering 3x Winter Orb (I use 4x Vial and have an extremely low curve so it hurts the opponent more), but that can't also double as sideboard against combo.

[Deep6er]

I would say yes.

Counterbalance is strong against combo and pretty decent against Landstill, so that means you can turn those seven cards into cards that help other poor matchups.

Although, I would say that Counterbalance is better in the main because of how ridiculously good it is. I would also recommend playing four Counterbalances.

[Mantis]

THANK. YOU. David Gearheart, at least someone agrees with me on Extirpate. I have been arguing on how it sucks since the card first saw print.

Now I'm just waiting for people to realize how bad Pithing Needle is (unless you run Trinket Mage, in which case I would also run it as a one-of).

[Mayk0l]

But still, are you fast enough to get down counterbalance/topdeck manipulation before Ichorid has one mana and a Pithing Needle? It sounds quite hard to do.
I agree on Extirpate though

[Whit3 Ghost]

The one place where Extirpate is good is in the sideboard of Storm Combo. Being able to RFG the opponent's Countermagic/Stifles/Tops/Counterbalances post-duress or after they've been thrown at a Chant or something similar is really good. It's also good against Ichorid.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Can you explain to me what combo deck would rather wait to throw out one of it's key elements to get killed by discard or counter, then waste a card making sure that the opponent doesn't another copy of the same control card, instead of, say, just paying one more mana and running Defense Grid?

[Whit3 Ghost]

Can you explain to me what combo deck would rather wait to throw out one of it's key elements to get killed by discard or counter, then waste a card making sure that the opponent doesn't another copy of the same control card, instead of, say, just paying one more mana and running Defense Grid?
It's a solid utility slot. Control usually has enough to stop your first attempt. By stripping them of Force or other good stuff, you make them even weaker against you while gaining information about their hand. Also, Grid is fucking awful. Stopping you from doing things like Tutoring, Gripping/Wiping and Brainstorming EOT is bad. If you want more Chants, run Xantid Swarm or Abeyance. It isn't run in place of those kind of effects.

[Deep6er]

But it's a card that makes it harder to get back into the game because you're down a card. Storm combo decks can't generally afford to throw away a card for no reason.

Plus, it doesn't do shit to stop a resolved Counterbalance. I'll grant you that the card can stop Force, but if they have more than just Force, you've wasted a card for no discernible value.

You NEED that card in order to be able to win. It's rare that you'll have so many cards in your hand that throwing one away (plus the one mana) for nothing is going to help.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's a solid utility slot. Control usually has enough to stop your first attempt. By stripping them of Force or other good stuff, you make them even weaker against you while gaining information about their hand. Also, Grid is fucking awful. Stopping you from doing things like Tutoring, Gripping/Wiping and Brainstorming EOT is bad. If you want more Chants, run Xantid Swarm or Abeyance. It isn't run in place of those kind of effects.

Y'know, I'm confused here, because it sounds a lot like you're planning on going to the late game with control here, in which case the best thing to be playing would be another deck. Or, y'know, Gigapede or something. This plan of waiting until they Force something to make sure they don't draw more Forces seems unbelievably awful, especially as a sideboard strategy. Defense Grid seems 10,000x better than that, and I'm not sure I'd be running Defense Grid as my anti-control strategy.

[Whit3 Ghost]

It's a one of in my Fetchland Tendrils sideboard. You guys seem to think that I'm boarding 4 of them as a primary strategy against counterspells. It isn't. It is a solution to a scenario that comes up frequently enough to dedicate a tutorable one-of to it.

[SuckerPunch]

Wheel of Sun and Moon is an interesting card. I don't think it's found a good home for itself yet, and I'm hoping it might.

Would threshold be better off playing Wheel of Sun and Moon in place of Tormod's Crypt?

It's really mainly effective against Ichorid right. Kind of like Green and White's version of Leyline of the Void.

[Forbiddian]

You're combo boarding Pithing Needle vs. Control?

Seriously?


Or are you guys talking about Extirpate (hard to tell)?


You're combo boarding Extirpate vs. Control?

Seriously?

[Justin]

Would threshold be better off playing Wheel of Sun and Moon in place of Tormod's Crypt?

It's really mainly effective against Ichorid right. Kind of like Green and White's version of Leyline of the Void.

I believe that Wheel of Sun and Moon is a very underrated sideboard card. I do play it in the boards over crypt in my green or white decks. Not only is it good against decks that abuse the graveyard (ichorid, aggro loam) when you enchant your opponent, but it also protect you against mill decks (painter's combo, solidarity) if you enchant yourself. This kind of versatility gives an extra incentive to play it.

I also have to say that choke is an underrated card. If it resolves, it devistates some decks.

[undone]

Extirpate isnt overrated, just over exaggerated. It litteraly makes or breaks some matches like lands, landstill and ichorid. But it is nearly useless vs other decks

[Pulp_Fiction]

I will basically echo what everyone else is saying. Extirpate is garbage, unless you are playing against Dredge then it owns. Counterbalance is WAY overrated as well and belongs in the SB not the main unless you expect a lot of Thresh and combo in your meta. Tormod's Crypt is also way overrated. Crypt DOES NOT HURT AGGRO LOAM IF A COMPETENT PERSON IS PLAYING IT.

Trygon Predator is way fucking underrated. This thing rocks the format. Same with Choke, that card is phenomenal. A while back someone mentioned Cranial Extraction, that card is also WAY underrated. A while back when I was playing lots of Aggro Loam I had them in the board, they worked phenomenal and resolving 1 naming Tarmogoyf is GG most of the time. I also have to add Leyline of Lifeforce to the list because it has serious potential and Darkblast is SO FUCKING good in this format that it is sick, way to underrated for how good it is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, it's true that Crypt doesn't wreck most graveyard decks completely, but for one card and zero mana, it does a good job of hurting them. I'm going to go ahead and say that Crypt isn't remotely over-rated; it's everyone's first choice for graveyard removal for a good reason.

[frogboy]

Crypt DOES NOT HURT AGGRO LOAM IF A COMPETENT PERSON IS PLAYING IT.

I was usually pretty amused when my opponents boarded in four blanks for relevant spells. Leyline is pretty bad, too. The problem is that they're not really relevant unless Loam has a weird draw, and even if they are, Loam has Wishes and probably some Krosan Grips in if they need them. Crypt is pretty bad because a) no one knows how the draw step works and b) cycle, dredge in response?

[Ewokslayer]

Crypt is pretty bad because a) no one knows how the draw step works and b) cycle, dredge in response?
So Crypt is bad because
a) Some people suck at Magic
b) You can get around it keeping a mana open and a cycling land stuck in your hand at all times?

Having a Life from the loam in hand and an empty graveyard is kinda crappy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

AggroLoam players saying that Crypt or Leyline are bad against them because there are ways around it reminds me of Geahart desperately trying to convince people that Gaea's Blessing is bad against Solidarity, or my trying to convince people that Armageddon didn't hurt Rabid Wombat. I mean, in the sense that being hit by a car isn't that bad for you if you still have enough hyped-up adrenaline strength to crawl to the hospital...

[nitewolf9]

Leyline is pretty bad, too.

You're joking, right?

[Omega]

the fact that you have to have leyline in hand (or else it costs 4), that you have to play 4 copies of them in the sidebord make leyline one of the worst sidebord card.

[frogboy]

Having a Life from the loam in hand and an empty graveyard is kinda crappy.

That's not really true. If they mauled your yard, it means you already Loamed once, so you have fetchlands in your hand, plus maybe a cycling land and/or Wasteland.


I mean, in the sense that being hit by a car isn't that bad for you if you still have enough hyped-up adrenaline strength to crawl to the hospital...

Crypt doesn't have enough impact. By the time they activate it, you will already have Loamed once and won't miss a drop for at least a couple turns. Using it to shrink Terravore is lol because of Devastating Dreams. If Loam is integral to Loam's plan, they can just rebuy it. The most devastating cards to lose to Crypt are Wasteland and Volrath's Stronghold.


You're joking, right?

The card isn't even relevant if I decide to win via Dreams. If it is relevant, it's easily answered.

ps, what're we boarding out for all these awesome hate cards?

edit:
that you have to play 4 copies of them in the sidebord make leyline one of the worst sidebord card.

You don't have to play four. This is more relevant in terms of the Ichorid matchup, but let's say you have thirteen sideboard cards that you need to have favorable matchups against most decks, and decide that those matchups are a higher priority than Ichorid. Further, your testing indicates that Leyline is superior to Crypt for whatever reason, despite the potential for drawing it on turns two and three. You would play two Leylines and it would be correct.

Crypt and Leyline do different things against Ichorid. Leyline is a card they must answer; Crypt is a card they can bait. Which strategy you would use depends heavily on your deck and how else you were planning on interacting with them.

[Deep6er]

AggroLoam players saying that Crypt or Leyline are bad against them because there are ways around it reminds me of Geahart desperately trying to convince people that Gaea's Blessing is bad against Solidarity, or my trying to convince people that Armageddon didn't hurt Rabid Wombat. I mean, in the sense that being hit by a car isn't that bad for you if you still have enough hyped-up adrenaline strength to crawl to the hospital...

I've lost to Blessing twice. Out of the much larger than two times that it's been boarded in against me.

I was never afraid of Blessing and was happy that they were boarding in Blessing as opposed to other, more relevant, hate cards. Furthermore, I never "desperately tried to convince" other people how bad it was. I told people it was bad when I was asked, and made it clear at that. Intellectual dishonesty is something I would never practice and the fact that you would accuse me of such is highly insulting.

I'm stunned that you think so low of me that I would do such a thing. I'm honestly appalled that you would then go around and tell things that are blatantly untrue to other people.

[Ewokslayer]

That's not really true. If they mauled your yard, it means you already Loamed once, so you have fetchlands in your hand, plus maybe a cycling land and/or Wasteland.

Crypt doesn't have enough impact. By the time they activate it, you will already have Loamed once and won't miss a drop for at least a couple turns. Using it to shrink Terravore is lol because of Devastating Dreams. If Loam is integral to Loam's plan, they can just rebuy it. The most devastating cards to lose to Crypt are Wasteland and Volrath's Stronghold.


It sounds a lot like your argument is that Crypt is bad against aggro loam because Aggro loam can choose to not do anything and negate its effect.

If your hand is filled with Wastelands and Cycling lands then you haven't been activating them, which is a win for the opponent.

If your hand is filled with Fetchlands, big deal. Unless you are assaulting people with them or I am playing LD I couldn't care less.


I've lost to Blessing twice. Out of the much larger than two times that it's been boarded in against me.

I was never afraid of Blessing and was happy that they were boarding in Blessing as opposed to other, more relevant, hate cards. Furthermore, I never "desperately tried to convince" other people how bad it was. I told people it was bad when I was asked, and made it clear at that. Intellectual dishonesty is something I would never practice and the fact that you would accuse me of such is highly insulting.

That might have more to do with the nature of the decks that boarded in Blessing against Solidarity (i.e. Bad Decks). You can't expect a deck with no relevant disruption to turn a loss into a win by adding 1-2 blessings. When Blessings where brought in to support an already difficult matchup then it could be killer (Though they usually had other relevant cards that could be brought in against other decks that were also strong against Solidarity)

[Volt]

.

[nitewolf9]

The card isn't even relevant if I decide to win via Dreams. If it is relevant, it's easily answered.


How are you going to win with devastating dreams if leyline is on the table? How do you recover from it when your hand is empty and all your lands are blown up? Leyline also makes all of your creatures suck, and shuts off seismic assault. I don't see how it is not a powerful card in that matchup.

[frogboy]

How are you going to win with devastating dreams if leyline is on the table? How do you recover from it when your hand is empty and all your lands are blown up? Leyline also makes all of your creatures suck, and shuts off seismic assault. I don't see how it is not a powerful card in that matchup.

If you play a Terravore and Dreams for four, you have probably a 6/6 to their no board.

[nitewolf9]

If you play a Terravore and Dreams for four, you have probably a 6/6 to their no board.

What if I played a tombstalker? Or snuf'd your terravore? That is one isolated case where maybe you can play around leyline. If they answer your vore though you both have no board and only one person has a hand. I'd love to start the game over where I mull to 4 or 5 and my opponent mulls to 0. And I still have a bomb in play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Crypt doesn't have enough impact. By the time they activate it, you will already have Loamed once and won't miss a drop for at least a couple turns.

I can see that, because Life From the Loam is a lot cheaper than Tormod's Cry- oh, wait, Crypt is free and Loam costs 2 mana, and requires you have to lands in your graveyard first.


I've lost to Blessing twice. Out of the much larger than two times that it's been boarded in against me.

I was never afraid of Blessing and was happy that they were boarding in Blessing as opposed to other, more relevant, hate cards. Furthermore, I never "desperately tried to convince" other people how bad it was. I told people it was bad when I was asked, and made it clear at that. Intellectual dishonesty is something I would never practice and the fact that you would accuse me of such is highly insulting.

I'm stunned that you think so low of me that I would do such a thing. I'm honestly appalled that you would then go around and tell things that are blatantly untrue to other people.

Holy shit, you've mastered faux indignation. And now, young Gearhart, you are ready for politics.

Anyway:

Bullshit. Yeah, I'd rather see two Gaea's Blessing come in than 4 Orim's Chant and 4 Thoughtseize in an aggro-control deck, but Gaea's Blessing definitely hurts and makes it harder to combo off, especially under pressure, and it requires very few sideboard slots to do this.

[Ewokslayer]

What if I played a tombstalker? Or snuf'd your terravore? That is one isolated case where maybe you can play around leyline. If they answer your vore though you both have no board and only one person has a hand. I'd love to start the game over where I mull to 4 or 5 and my opponent mulls to 0. And I still have a bomb in play.

Now you are being silly. Clearly every non land card is replaced by whatever sideboard card is being discussed and no other cards are allowed to be played.

When discussing the merits of a sideboard card, only one deck is allowed to have access to all of its cards.

Sidenote: Have we derailed the thread enough yet?

[frogboy]

What if I played a tombstalker? Or snuf'd your terravore? That is one isolated case where maybe you can play around leyline. If they answer your vore though you both have no board and only one person has a hand. I'd love to start the game over where I mull to 4 or 5 and my opponent mulls to 0. And I still have a bomb in play.

what if my opponent played a real deck?* what if I thoughtseized their removal spell? what if my 6/6 trampled over their 5/5? (I mean, really)

what if I, you know, killed their Leyline and proceeded with my normal plan?


I can see that, because Life From the Loam is a lot cheaper than Tormod's Cry- oh, wait, Crypt is free and Loam costs 2 mana, and requires you have to lands in your graveyard first.

If they use Crypt to counter your first Loam then they didn't even do anything to your engine.

*cue angry response from all three Eva Green players

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Except make you waste a turn doing nothing to advance your gameplan or board state.

Free Time Walk? Hell yes.

Tormod's Crypt is, as Ewokslayer sardonically notes, bad against Life from the Loam only if it's the entirety of your plan. You might as well be saying that Orim's Chant is bad against CRETBelcher because they can go Wild Cantor beatdown.

[frogboy]

Now you are being silly. Clearly every non land card is replaced by whatever sideboard card is being discussed and no other cards are allowed to be played.

When discussing the merits of a sideboard card, only one deck is allowed to have access to all of its cards.

we were discussing leyline in the abstract as opposed to in a specific deck, so this isn't really a fair point.

[nitewolf9]

what if my opponent played a real deck?*

Hah!


what if I thoughtseized their removal spell?

What if I thoughtseized dreams? Or terravore for that matter.


what if my 6/6 trampled over their 5/5? (I mean, really)

Um...how is terravore going to be a 6/6 when you DD for 4, and I played tombstalker?


what if I, you know, killed their Leyline and proceeded with my normal plan?


You're right, good sideboard cards are ones that your opponent doesn't need to answer.

[frogboy]

Except make you waste a turn doing nothing to advance your gameplan or board state.

Free Time Walk? Hell yes.

Tormod's Crypt is, as Ewokslayer sardonically notes, bad against Life from the Loam only if it's the entirety of your plan. You might as well be saying that Orim's Chant is bad against CRETBelcher because they can go Wild Cantor beatdown.

Walk is only good for the aggressive decks. The problem is that those decks are virtually kold to Seismic Assault, and Crypt is one of their best ways to fight it.

There's a bit of difference between having a bunch of fairly gigantic beaters as your plan as opposed to some 1/1s, particularly when, again, you have wrath you + armageddon.

Loam has strategies of: mana denial, assault/loam, beaters/dreams. Hating on the yard is only really good against assault/loam, and is kind of okay against mana denial depending on what both players draw. Crypt is in all cases a temporary measure, and Leyline is a card that the deck has several outs to. If you have yard hate and a quick clock, sometimes that's good enough. Usually it's inconvienent but mostly just requires different sequencing.


Hah!



What if I thoughtseized dreams? Or terravore for that matter.



Um...how is terravore going to be a 6/6 when you DD for 4, and I played tombstalker?



You're right, good sideboard cards are ones that your opponent doesn't need to answer.

re: 6/6: I assumed it plays fetchlands.

re: tombstalker: oh, right, delve. My bad.

edit: re: answer: the plan of "draw my sideboard card + hope they don't draw their out" doesn't seem weak to you?

I'm not really sure what to say except that so far whenever my opponents hate my yard it's been irrelevant and I've generally been of the opinion they'd be better off with whatever they cut, and pretty much all of my reasoning is stated elsewhere in the thread.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, as far as I can tell, you're advocating that we should... what? Curl up in a fetal position and bemoan the grim and horrid specter that is life? I think you have a misunderstanding if you think a sideboard card has to guarantee your victory to be good.

I mean, I know people have to defend their petdecks. I remember once, for instance, David Gearhart, whilst on the midst of a shooting rampage of slaughter old women and adorable puppies, in between pleas with him to cease his mindless bloodlust and hatred of Hispanics, he said something about Gaea's Blessing not doing anything against Solidarity, for instance. But the simple fact is that while good decks usually have outs, unless you get god-draws it's pretty easy for hate cards to trip you up, resulting in your dying before you get to that out.

[frogboy]

I'm saying that making your sideboard plan "attack their graveyard" is not always even relevant, and when it is is easily answered, and perhaps a different plan would be in order. (and no, I don't know what that would be)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Okay, now we're being ridiculous. Graveyard hate is always relevant against Life From the Loam decks, such decks tending to suck without the titular card. "Easily answered", in the best case scenario, means losing a turn of growth for no tempo cost on the opponent's end. What other plan costs no mana? That's pretty huge. You have to sacrifice tempo to answer the graveyard hate, and they can always just draw and drop another Crypt while pursuing their own gameplan. Vulnerability to graveyard hate is exactly the reason I gave up on Loam strategies.

[frogboy]

My entire point is that Loam isn't really that vulnerable to graveyard hate, so we might not really see eye to eye on this.

We should probably discuss decks and plans more specifically, because they do different things with tempo. The counterbalance decks, for example, are mostly trying to get to the lock and some extra counters for EEs or a very fast Tarmogoyf draw. Crypt is much less impressive for them as opposed to the deck that goes Kird Ape, Tarmogoyf, maul your yard. On the other hand, Loam isn't as integral to your plan against the aggro decks as opposed to your Assaults, creatures, and Dreams.

It's also not really a petdeck. My pet deck is anything with Psychatog and Berserk or Intuition and Demigod of Revenge :B.

[morgan_coke]

Maybe I'm just dumb or something, but CB/Top pretty much chased Loam out of the extended metagame. How does a deck that is as clustered at 2 as Loam survive in Legacy where CB/Top and Chalice are even more prevalent?

I mean, CB/Top Chalice@2 even shut Loam out of its wishes so it can't get it's removal spells. Just wondering. Thanks.

Also, Leyline and Crypt are bad for loam decks. They can be played around to an extent, but they're still not fun times. Personally I've found that Extirpating the cycling lands is by far the best strategy overall, but that's more of a strategy thing. I also like Extirpating GGT or SI vs. Ichorid (whichever hits yard first), but again, that's just me.

[Nihil Credo]

Maybe I'm just dumb or something, but CB/Top pretty much chased Loam out of the extended metagame. How does a deck that is as clustered at 2 as Loam survive in Legacy where CB/Top and Chalice are even more prevalent?

I mean, CB/Top Chalice@2 even shut Loam out of its wishes so it can't get it's removal spells. Just wondering. Thanks.

Here's how:
Maindeck Engineered Explosives. These take care of Counterbalance and Chalice nicely and can also serve other purposes.
Maindeck Chalice of the Void or Thoughtseize. The latter forces them to find a second combo piece or Chalice (you care a lot less if they shut off Loam after you've cast it 3-4 times). The former shuts out Top (Loam beats a naked Cbalance easily) and, for that matter, generally kicks CounterTop decks in the nuts. It's also awesome post-board against Extirpate and Crypt.
7-8 3cc threats that can fully win the game on their own. Seismic Assault counts if you have some lands in hand *or* if you are under no pressure and can wait to draw them.
Wastelands to restrict their mana supply, forcing them to choose between floating that 2cc on top or putting pressure on you. Once in a while even cutting them off of UU outright.
Sometimes, pre-emptive Burning Wish on Reverent Silence/Shattering Spree (eg. Turn 1 Mongoose or Ancient Tomb).
Mox Diamond to Time Walk your opponent on all of the above, and play the 2CC bombs before they can assemble the combo.
Post-side, some list run Krosan Grip (it's not mandatory here, though).None of the above is enough, on its own, to nullify the threat of CounterTop lock. However, put them together and Aggro Loam powers through Counterbalance far more often than not.


Also, Leyline and Crypt are bad for loam decks. They can be played around to an extent, but they're still not fun times. Personally I've found that Extirpating the cycling lands is by far the best strategy overall, but that's more of a strategy thing. I also like Extirpating GGT or SI vs. Ichorid (whichever hits yard first), but again, that's just me.It really depends on what deck you're playing. If Landstill sided Tormod's Crypt against me, I really couldn't care less - it will make me spend some extra mana on it and save up a Wasteland for Academy Ruins, but I'll still punch through in a few more turns. Crypt from Goblins, however? I totally need the sweepers to buy back the time it stole.

Leyline of the Void is like a Crypt on steroids, and considerably more problematic, since it takes more than a second Loam copy or keeping G open to deal with it. The mitigating factors are: that most people have dropped it from their side because it's so terrible against Ichorid; that it usually appears in non-blue decks, enabling Burning Wish and EE@4 as good answers and DDreams win as a good workaround; and that hardcasting it is slow as balls and much less likely to wreck you. Plus, once in a while they mulligan to Leyline but end up with a mediocred hand that get raped by a pair of Wastelands.

The exact opposite goes for Extirpate. Were Goblins to Extirpate my Loams, well, that's sort of a bummer but I'd much rather eat that over a Warren Weirding. If Landstill Extirpates Loam from a good position, my game plan switches to "resolve a Burning Wish whatever the cost" (unless I can go for the "Volrath's Stronghold every turn" plan).

[Illissius]

The exact opposite goes for Extirpate. Were Goblins to Extirpate my Loams, well, that's sort of a bummer but I'd much rather eat that over a Warren Weirding. If Landstill Extirpates Loam from a good position, my game plan switches to "resolve a Burning Wish whatever the cost" (unless I can go for the "Volrath's Stronghold every turn" plan).

This is the same as I've found from the other side of the matchup. Once I Extirpate Loam, all I have to do is counter Burning Wish and kill a few dudes -- something I'm well equipped to do. It's even better (or worse, depending on perspective) if the control deck has Loam themselves. Out-Loaming the Loam deck is so fun.

[frogboy]

because it's so terrible against Ichorid

blink.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Has the whole world gone fucking mad? When did graveyard-dependent decks become impervious to having their graveyards removed, and why did no one tell me?

[frogboy]

No, I fully agree the card is nuts against Ichorid. I think it's good in some situations against Loam, but not crippling.

[Nihil Credo]

blink.
I'll phrase it more clearly: it's so fucking unreliable against Ichorid. If you can protect it with FoW+Daze, or with Thoughtseize and Dark Ritual, that factor is somewhat mitigated. However, in decks who have neither, Leyline has a disturbing tendency to get Chained (sometimes Ray'd) and either Therapied or stuck in its owner's hand for 1-2 turns more than it takes the Ichorid player to flood the board with Zombie tokens.

Yes, just like the opponent will not always have Leyline in hand, Ichorid will not always have the Chain of Vapor. Problem is, it's a good bet that Ichorid needs only to win that particular lottery in one out of two post-board games.

[frogboy]

Agreed; I'm generally of the opinion that decks with no shot preboard need seven or eight cards against Ichorid. I actually like Crypt more in most blue decks because they see so many extra cards via Ponder/Brainstorm/Top, but Leyline is such a skullfucking and is so much better than Crypt that I prefer it in decks without much draw power and particularly ones that play black.

[memnarch]

Most underrated card: CHUB TOAD !!!
Most overrated card: every card that isn't CHUB TOAD.
Folks, go on ebay and buy e playset, this frog's going to wipe out the fucking tarmogoyf's ass.
LOL

Yo I just bought a playset from you! Great Job!

[mercenarybdu]

Pithing Needle, we can't get enough of it in any SB I could name from Landstill to DS.