[Rough Deck List] Leyline of the VOid/Helm of Obedience combo

[FoolofaTook]

The Current list is in post #21.

This is a really rough list that I've been testing for a few days. It has some turn 1, 2 and 3 kills in it but it generally pops on turn 4 or 5. It has draw issues, with about 50% of hands mulliganing and maybe 10-15% mulling to 4 and misery. It either needs better ways to find Leyline of the Void and cast it early or it needs more disruption to allow it to live easily to turn 5.

Combo (8)

4x Leyline of The Void
4x Helm of Obedience

Disruption (13)

4x Thoughtseize
3x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Force of Will
2x Pact of Negation

Tutors/Filters (11)

4x Brainstorm
2x Intuition
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
2x Infernal Tutor

Acceleration (13)

4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Ancient Tomb

Colored Mana Lands (15)

4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Swamp

With Leylines of the Void in hand at start the deck kills very fast. Without it either mulls to trouble or kills by turn 5 or thereabouts assuming no significant counter disruption.

Cards that are in but need to be replaced:

2x Intuition (almost never cast because it's too slow, mainly pitches to FoW at the moment.)

4x Thoughtseize (really needs to go to the sideboard because if the opponent is not playing counters it's essentially a dead card that wastes resources.)

Cards that are iffy:

Ill-Gotten Gains (feeds off of all the cards below that I think are iffy also.)
Lotus Petal (only here to give mana after an Iggy and very occasionally allow for Leyline in play at start, turn 1 Helm, turn 1 or 2 win.)
Infernal Tutor (much less valuable than in Iggy Pop because there's no floating LED mana along with the two other returned cards after Iggy.)

[idraleo]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10885

[Nihil Credo]

Eh, I'm leaving this one open. The other thread is mostly brainstorming so I think it's OK if Foat makes one for an IGG/Helm hybrid version.

[MTG Guru]

@Foolofatook - Have you considered Serum Powder? I also wouldn't run Helm in any more than a 3'of. I've tested 4 and found that running 3 seemed to be the perfect number. Pact of Negation also looks kind of weak. Maybe Unmask will fill that role more efficiently? Looks good and if developed it might show some promise. Alot of members including Diacma (spelling?) might have some insight on this type of build. Unmask also helps with Infernal Tutor, which is another plus.

[FoolofaTook]

@Foolofatook - Have you considered Serum Powder? I also wouldn't run Helm in any more than a 3'of. I've tested 4 and found that running 3 seemed to be the perfect number. Pact of Negation also looks kind of weak. Maybe Unmask will fill that role more efficiently? Looks good and if developed it might show some promise. Alot of members including Diacma (spelling?) might have some insight on this type of build. Unmask also helps with Infernal Tutor, which is another plus.

Serum Powder wasn't working for me in the initial build. I did have the 4 Helms present though and it is possible Serum Powder would look better when I wasn't potentially having to remove 2 Helms from the game because the hand didn't have the nuts. I'm going to seriously look at going with just 3 Helms, The deck has no problem at all fishing up stuff on the first few turns so the initial draws might be slightly less spectacular but the overall premise much more solid if I made the change you suggested.

Pact of Negation is a necessary evil at the moment. It backs up Force of Will in a way that no other counter could reasonably do given the constraints of being castable turn 1 to 3, not requiring mana, and being part of a low cards in hand strategy that rarely has more than 1 or 2 cards in hand when going off very early. I had 4 originally, but like Serum Powder the opening hand power was put off too much so I cut it back to 2. Seems much more effective as a twosie so far.

Unmask has the problem that there is never a black card to pitch to it when going off unless you're really late in the game, meaning turn 6 or later. It's very possible that a Fetchland Tendrils type tempo handcrafting strategy will be better than the go for broke I'm trying here. If that's the case then Unmask will be a real option over Thoughtseize.

What this has that Iggy Pop doesn't is counterspells to protect the vulnerable moments and targetted discard to better prepare them. What it doesn't have that Iggy Pop does is the virtual certainty of a 6 card or better hand that has the nuts one way or the other. Iggy Pop goes off and either gets countered or not. This almost never fizzles when it actually attempts to go off but it is less predictable in creating that result.

[Valarne]

Eh, I'm leaving this one open. The other thread is mostly brainstorming so I think it's OK if Foat makes one for an IGG/Helm hybrid version.

Well, there is decklists in the other thread as well. One thread should do, I would think, so far.

That said - love to you all!

[rufus]

I'm a bit slow, but why don't you play LED or Tendrils in this?

If you don't like intuition, you could play Spoils of the Vault, Plunge, or even Tainted Pact.

[FoolofaTook]

Taking MTG Guru's changes, plus a couple I wanted to do into consideration:

Combo (7)

4x Leyline of The Void
3x Helm of Obedience

Disruption (12)

4x Thoughtseize
2x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Force of Will
2x Pact of Negation

Tutors/Filters (13)

4x Serum Powder
4x Brainstorm
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
2x Infernal Tutor

Acceleration (13)

4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Ancient Tomb

Colored Mana Lands (15)

4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Swamp

Changes from the first list:

-1 Helm of Obedience. MTG Guru is right, 4 actually makes the deck draw worse because you don't want it in your opening hand a lot of the time and never in multiples.

-1 Ill-Gotten Gains. It's nice when it happens but this is not a recursion deck, or very limited recursion and Ill-Gotten Gains is not a good card to have in hand without Leylines of the Void in play or in hand and mana to play both of them in the first two turns.

-2 Intuition. Just doesn't work in the deck because using fast mana to power Intuition leaves you with the finisher you wanted and not enough mana to cast it most of the time. Using Intuition naturally at the end of turn 3 is just slow, allowing the opponent to get unreasonably setup.

+4 Serum Powder, and man is it drawing better than it used to.

Limited number of fished hands, only about 20 at this point but it's feeling much more consistent.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm a bit slow, but why don't you play LED or Tendrils in this?

If you don't like intuition, you could play Spoils of the Vault, Plunge, or even Tainted Pact.

LED and Tendrils is something that the entire meta has either learned or is learning to defend, courtesy of TES and FT. I like having this look like that kind of deck but actually finish very differently. I like being non-graveyard dependent.

The other black tutors are definitely an option. I'm trying Serum Powder in place of Intuition at the moment and if it has issues I'll look at those also.

[Dark_Cynic87]

In other news, I hear Doomsday pwns...

Graveyard hate is good against IGG. That's what makes IGG difficult to play. I do understand wanting to use it with a Leyline in play as it makes blue disruption virtually non-existent.

What I'm saying is that you can IGG

You could make a Doomsday stack like this with a Leyline and a Brainstorm in hand:

1.) Cruel Bargain/Meditate
2.) Dark Ritual
3.) Helm of Obedience
4.) Dark Ritual
5.) Pact of Negation//Random card.

The play would go:
Tap Top, draw your draw-4.
Play draw-4 hitting Top, Rit, Helm, Rit.
Play Rit.
Play Rit.
Win.

Rit-Rit gives you 5 for the activation of Helm. This means you need:

BBB for Doomsday
BBB or 2U for your Draw-4.
B for your 2x Rituals, giving you 5 for the playing and activation of Helm, and hence your win.

So, (BBB) (BBB/2U) (B). That's not difficult.

This could easily be run in a FT shell...I'm not sure it shouldn't be. I prefer the Tendrils kill as it's not quite as balls-to-the-wall as this, but it wouldn't be bad by any means...I've always prefered Chant to counterspells when it comes to protection and IGG involved. That's just me, though.

I recommend trying out LED, Doomsday, and more Infernals and even a couple of Mystical Tutors to compliment the 3x LDV, or go 2/2 split. I would drop the 2x Tombs as you have absolutely no way to find them when you need them other than wasting a tutor.

In favor of Discard and Counters I'd try Chant. Chant is an answer-all to counters, discard is better than playing counterspells, so you could leave them.

Here's what I'm proposing:

Combo (6)
4x Leyline of The Void
2x Helm of Obedience

Disruption (7)
4x Orim's Chant
3x Doomsday

Tutors/Filters/Draw (18)
4x Brainstorm
2x Mystical Tutor
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Meditate
1x Infernal Contract

Acceleration (13)
1x Lotus Petal
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual

Lands (16)
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
4x Flooded Strand
1x Tundra
1x Island
1x Swamp

That's what I would do test. This is virtually immune to Graveyard hate.

Pce,

--DC

[FoolofaTook]

That's a very interesting idea. It's an FT offshoot that is using Helms and Leyline of the Void to avoid graveyard hate.

I'm more interested in going power-control with the build I'm looking at, with counters and discard replacing Orim's Chant, and graveyard recursion only occurring when a particularly fortuitous situation developes in the early mid-game.

I want to seize control of turns 1 to 3 and win in that window with turns 4 and 5 as the fallback if my disruption and counters are successfully met by the opponent. FT can win very quickly also, however it pulses more than I want this deck to pulse, with a fair number of games where it sculpts and sculpts looking for the perfect hand to go off. I want to start going off turn 1 and potentially stretch the sequence out for another turn or maybe two at the outside.

Turn 0 - Leylines of the Void in play.

Turn 1 - Drop a fetch and get the Swamp, Thoughtseize, drop a Lotus Petal.

Turn 2 - Drop a fetch and get an Underground Sea.

End of opponent's turn - Lim-Dul's Vault to find Helm and setup something else as option B behind it in the 5 card stack.

Turn 3 - Dark Ritual, rip up Lotus Petal, Helm backed by a counter, activate it without passing priority.

There are a lot of openings like that, some not so good and a few that look like they just win on the play without the opponent having a chance regardless of what he has in hand.

I guess the glory opening would be:

Turn 0 - Leyline of the Void in play.

Turn 1 - Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Helm with a Force of Will or Pact of Negation to cover it.

Won't see that very often but it's nice to know it's there.

[georgjorge]

With Leylines of the Void in hand at start the deck kills very fast. Without it either mulls to trouble or kills by turn 5 or thereabouts assuming no significant counter disruption.


Turn five kills that assume no significant disruption are equal to game losses, as about every deck can either win before turn five, or significantly disrupt the combo (Thresh will have at least two Forces and a Daze by then, Homebrew about two Seize/Duress and a Hymn etc). So you're basically saying that you either have Leyline in your opening hand, mull into it (not such a strong strategy) or lose the game.

[Hanni]

This idea sounds really good.

I'd include Tendrils in the deck. You're not always going to open with a Leyline and the whole IGG shell is already setup to play Tendrils. An alternate win condition only makes you more resilient to Extirpate/Meddling Mage.

Honestly, I'd reshape this deck to look more like Fetchland Tendrils. Helm of Obedience is the new Belcher in theory that it's a 4cc artifact that activates to win you the game. It's a little different in actuality, but the principle is similar enough to make the analogy.

[Dark_Cynic87]

In the list I proposed, you could drop an Infernal Tutor for a Tendrils. I hate IGG as it can get you screwed so easily. It's just not playable in a format where everyone and their girlfriend sideboard Ichorid answers.

Also, you could test Enlightened Tutor in place of Mystical if you want it to be easier to find your Helm, or a 1/1 split where you can Mystical into Enlightened. To take it further, you can drop D-Day down to 1 or 2 for more Enlightened, although I don't recommend it. No only is D-Day a quicker way to win, but it acts as a tutor for all your combo pieces. Adding in the Tendrils is a way around a Game 2 needle that they think will screw you.

Something I did forget in the list is a Wipe Away. I'd drop a Helm. This way you still have 2x Win-Cons with Tendrils.

Pce,

--DC

[FoolofaTook]

Turn five kills that assume no significant disruption are equal to game losses, as about every deck can either win before turn five, or significantly disrupt the combo (Thresh will have at least two Forces and a Daze by then, Homebrew about two Seize/Duress and a Hymn etc). So you're basically saying that you either have Leyline in your opening hand, mull into it (not such a strong strategy) or lose the game.

That's the initial list and comments you're looking at. The current list is in post #8. There's another update coming in a day or two after I actually get the opportunity to test this against Survival, FT and Landstill on Tuesday.

I made a couple of more changes based on things people said and I'm going to list them when I see whether or not they've helped. The post 8 list is much more consistent than the initial list but I still haven't been able to test it against a wide variety of disruption.

[FoolofaTook]

This idea sounds really good.

I'd include Tendrils in the deck. You're not always going to open with a Leyline and the whole IGG shell is already setup to play Tendrils. An alternate win condition only makes you more resilient to Extirpate/Meddling Mage.

Honestly, I'd reshape this deck to look more like Fetchland Tendrils. Helm of Obedience is the new Belcher in theory that it's a 4cc artifact that activates to win you the game. It's a little different in actuality, but the principle is similar enough to make the analogy.

Based on your suggestion I made a couple of changes to make it a bit more FT-like. I'll post them after I get a chance to test them. I didn't go the Orim's Chant route though because I really want to stay 2c in the list. Adding the 3rd color just makes the list more vulnerable to mana disruption. The testing I did with the post #8 list was fairly positive but I think adding a Tendrils to it is a good idea.

The thing that the Helm does is, I think, even better than Belcher because it gives a strong rationale for maindeck Leylines and maindeck Leylines win some games (game 1 Ichorid as an example) that you just don't reasonably win any other way. I'll admit that I'd rather not have IGG in the deck but it also has so much synergy with Leylines that it's hard to remove. I'd like the deck to be even blue-er with more filter and card advantage in it but unfortunately IGG and Infernal Tutor (and now Tendrils) are what seem to be most synergistic.

[freakish777]

You should run a singleton Tendrils anyways.

An opening hand like:

Rit
Rit
Petal
Tomb
Cabal Rit
Infernal Tutor
IGG

Kills turn 1 if Tendrils is in your deck (2b of Petal and Tomb, storm 1, 1bbbbb storm 3 after Rit and Cabal Rit, bbbb storm 4 after IT for Rit, 8 black storm 6 after 2 more Rits, bbbb storm 7 with IGG, should be straight forward from here).


9 Fetches seems to be 1 to many considering you're running only 6 targets (you're a little more susceptible to Stifle, try adding 1 more Swamp over a Bloodstained).

[FoolofaTook]

You should run a singleton Tendrils anyways.

An opening hand like:

Rit
Rit
Petal
Tomb
Cabal Rit
Infernal Tutor
IGG

Kills turn 1 if Tendrils is in your deck (2b of Petal and Tomb, storm 1, 1bbbbb storm 3 after Rit and Cabal Rit, bbbb storm 4 after IT for Rit, 8 black storm 6 after 2 more Rits, bbbb storm 7 with IGG, should be straight forward from here).


9 Fetches seems to be 1 to many considering you're running only 6 targets (you're a little more susceptible to Stifle, try adding 1 more Swamp over a Bloodstained).

I am running a singleton Tendrils now. You guys are right that the deck's threat posture is much stronger with two win cons.

I go back and forth on the fetches. The deck is stronger off of the play if I can fetch either the basic Swamp or Island turn 1. The idea is to fetch whichever one of the basics is appropriate on turn 1 and get the other one on turn 2. 9 fetches and 2 basics in the deck still has me laying out an Underground Sea in front of Wasteland too often. The vulnerability to Stifle is there off of the draw and I play an Underground Sea or basic if I have it if they have blue mana open after their turn 1.

I would go 12 fetches and 6 land if I had room in the deck but I don't right now. I still like the Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual 5 mana openings that allow another way to win turn 1. That may turn out to be too weak to support in the long run though in which case the Ancient Tombs go out and probably 2 more fetches come in.

[MTG Guru]

Why not just play 3 Underground Sea and an extra fetch? I do this with alot of my decks and it's a common misconception thinking you need four duals in a two color deck. It isn't always necessary or the right move.

[FoolofaTook]

Why not just play 3 Underground Sea and an extra fetch? I do this with alot of my decks and it's a common misconception thinking you need four duals in a two color deck. It isn't always necessary or the right move.

I thought about doing this and basically I'm worried about getting stuck on the draw with just fetches in hand and staring at an untapped blue across from me. I don't like dropping an Underground Sea on turn 1 for obvious reasons, but I'm more concerned about having no land in play and no way to Brainstorm to look for more. At least if the Underground Sea gets wasted I have the possibility of finding another land to replace it with Brainstorm in hand. The other thing is that I really want to be able to drop an Underground Sea turn 2 and have Lim-Dul's Vault available after fetching either the Island or the Swamp turn 1 and then staring at an untapped blue on my turn 2.

It's a delicate balance and I haven't played remotely enough hands to know whether three or four Underground Seas is better, so I'm taking the conservative approach and making sure I have the best chance to have one in hand even though I don't want to drop it right away.

[FoolofaTook]

Here is where the list is at the moment.

Combo (8)

4x Leyline of The Void
3x Helm of Obedience
1x Tendrils of Agony

Disruption (10)

4x Thoughtseize
2x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Pact of Negation

Tutors/Filters (14)

4x Serum Powder
4x Brainstorm
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Infernal Tutor

Acceleration (13)

4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
2x Ancient Tomb

Colored Mana Lands (15)

4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Swamp

Changes from the second list:

-4 Force of Will. The blue count was just too low to run it consistently.

+2 Pact of Negation. Makes the attempt to go off all-or-nothing but it seems to be all a lot more often than it's nothing so far. Pact works with Iggy really well because you can recur it and use it without having to get another blue card. Makes Iggy a bit more usable without Leyline on the table since your opponent is going to be out-countered once you successfully cast Iggy.

+1 Tendrils of Agony. Another win con and a way to gain a bit of life if the game is stretching out past the early kill zone.

+1 Infernal Tutor. Hated doing this but it's the best card to add with a singleton Tendrils if you have Iggy in the deck also.

So far this build is about as consistent as the post 8 build although I don't have enough testing with it to possibly know which is better or more consistent.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I don't think you are going to be happy with the Pact of Negations, as CounterTop has about 18 answers to flip to it (lands). Also, 9 fetches and 4 Thoughtseize seems outrageous, especially since you don't particularly NEED the option of making them discard a creature. If you want added protection, why don't you go something like an x/x split on Duress and thoughtseize with "x" + "x" = 6 and keep PoN as a 2-of.

How are the Ancient Tombs working? I'm still highly doubtful that they do anything for the consistancy of your list...

Pce,

--DC

[FoolofaTook]

The Pact of Negations are for a win very early strategy. Once Counterbalance lands this deck isn't going to win very often. The plan is to end the game while they are still relying on counters in hand to control things before they've setup the soft-lock that CounterTop represents. There are virtually no combo decks out there that rely on a storm-like sequence that aren't very unhappy once Counterbalance has landed.

The Thoughtseizes are obviously going to grab Counterbalance when they get a chance to pre-empt it landing on turn 2 or 3 and locking out the decks victory chances. Other cards in the deck that are equally discomfited by Counterbalance are the Lotus Petals, Dark Rituals, Cabal Rituals, Infernal Tutors, Lim-Dul's Vault, basically anything the deck is trying to do proactively to generate extra mana, aside from Ancient Tomb, is vulnerable to Counterbalance.

Duress is a possibility, however it can't take a Meddling Mage or several other annoying creatures, so I opted for Thoughtseize. 6 Discard spells is also a possibility, for the moment I prefer the 4 counters. It's really nice to be able to pull a Dark Ritual, Helm of Obedience and Pact of Negation out of the graveyard off of Iggy with 2 black mana floating and guarantee you can land it even if they have Force of Will or Daze coming out on their side.

[Mr.C]

Play Bound//Determined as a SB agains CB? Maybe?

[FoolofaTook]

Play Bound//Determined as a SB agains CB? Maybe?

I like Bound/Determined a lot, although it's always hard to fit it in decks in the end. It would require going 3c, which I'm not going to do and if I was I'd go white for Orim's Chant to fill that role. I'm a bit confused about how Bound/Determined's converted mana cost is figured. The FAQ says it is considered to have a CMC of "5, and 2." In conjunction with Counterbalance's effect I can read that as counterable by a card with CMC 5, a card with CMC 2, a card with CMC 7 or only a card with CMC 5, and 2. Which is it?