[Brainstorming] Ad Nauseam

[rufus]

Ad Nauseum :3::b::b:
Instant Rare
Reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost. You may repeat this process any number of times.

Considering the CC and the fact that it's not that hard to push the average cc down, this can work pretty well in a pure combo deck...

12x Swamp
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Dark Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Duress
2x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Diabolic Intent
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Ad Nauseam

[MTG Guru]

Ad Naseum seems busted. Is it better than running Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain, though?

[robby]

Ad Nauseum :3::b::b:
Instant Rare
Reveal the top card of your library and put that card into your hand. You lose life equal to its converted mana cost. You may repeat this process any number of times.

Considering the CC and the fact that it's not that hard to push the average cc down, this can work pretty well in a pure combo deck...

12x Swamp
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Dark Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Duress
2x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Diabolic Intent
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Ad Nauseam


Pact of Negation might have a spot here for easy combo protection.

[Rood]

THat's just broken. Essentially if you just resolve that one card you win the game.

[krevett62]

Seems really powerful in vintage where mana flows

[Alfred]

I wouldn't Brainstorm anything. This is obviously getting banned/restricted in the eternal formats.

[Cire]

as i said in the preview thread

this plus angels grace is a two card instant win combo.....lol

[KillemallCFH]

This alone is basically a one card instant win. Putting this in an SI-esque shell instead of the Draw4s, with MD disruption seems really busted. The list in the opening post seems like a good start to breaking this card.

[Fons]

The card is already broken.

[rufus]

Alfred is probably right in saying that this is 'pre-ban' material.

as i said in the preview thread

this plus angels grace is a two card instant win combo.....lol
Angel's Grace doesn't protect from life loss, only from damage so it doesn't really get you any more cards.

[emidln]

Angel's Grace doesn't protect from life loss, only from damage so it doesn't really get you any more cards.


...You can't lose the game this turn and your opponents can't win the game this turn...

[BreathWeapon]

Infernal Tutor and Diabolic Intent should be the Draw 4s, just cut out the tutors and concentrate on the threats.

You'll hit top gold fishing speeds with SI, but what makes Ad Nauseam broken is a TPS build that drops LED for FoW, IMO.

[MTG Guru]

This card may be broken but there are things about it that may prevent it from being banned.

Things that are bad about the card:

- it's five mana.

- it's going to get countered resulting in tempo loss.

- running 4 makes it more likely that you would lose 4-5 life multiple times, maybe killing yourself in the process.

- and again, it's five mana.

I think you guys are overestimating this card. It may be good, but I envision it performing better in a TES shell rather than a SI shell. In Vintage it's definitely going to be restricted. But being five mana in Legacy it might actually see the light of day.

[Alfred]

This card may be broken but there are things about it that may prevent it from being banned.

Things that are bad about the card:

- it's five mana.

Mind's Desire.


- it's going to get countered resulting in tempo loss.

Goblin Charbelcher. It's also an instant.


- running 4 makes it more likely that you would lose 4-5 life multiple times, maybe killing yourself in the process.

This card allows you to choose to continue after each card. That means that unless you turn up multiples in a row, you'll know when to stop.


- and again, it's five mana.

Yawgmoth's Bargain, Timespiral, Dream Halls.


I think you guys are overestimating this card. It may be good, but I envision it performing better in a TES shell rather than a SI shell. In Vintage it's definitely going to be banned. But being five mana in Legacy it might actually see the light of day.

If this is printed in it's current form, I will bet money that this will be either pre-banned in Legacy, or banned after the first ban announcement.

[BreathWeapon]

Assuming it's a 5c win condition, just compare it with Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens and the Infernal Tutor loop, and there's literally no contest. Unbanning Mind's Desire would be more balanced than not banning Ad Nauseam, it's ridiculously good.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mind's Desire can't be countered.

But it is comparable to Yawgmoth's Bargain in storm combo, and for that reason alone it'll probably be banned.

Which is sad, because in Coffers- or general Black-based control it'd be powerful but more or less fair. I was really looking forward to trying this in Truffle Shuffle.

[Peter_Rotten]

With main Pact of Negation and Thougthsieze, this deck is pretty stupid. Resolve AdN and win seems hardly fair. Even casting it on turn 3 isn't too fair.

[Benie Bederios]

It looks quite potent. Just tested it in an IGGy shell and it's very powerfull in goldfishing. But I wonder how strong it would be against a real opponent who can deal damage.

BB

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm finding that with Tendrils and other Ad Nauseums as your only <2 cc cards, after testing 20 games, the average cards pulled before going over 10 life was about 10 (although 5-6 was more average, with the occasional massive haul of 15-20)

[Skeggi]

I'm finding that with Tendrils and other Ad Nauseums as your only <2 cc cards, after testing 20 games, the average cards pulled before going over 10 life was about 10 (although 5-6 was more average, with the occasional massive haul of 15-20)

Then it basically replaces Cruel Bargain and Infernal Contract. For 2 mana more, you get 6 extra cards. That's pretty awesome.

Although a single LED doesn't pay its costs...it'll complement the other cards then; still pretty broken.

[Shugyosha]

With the list of the initial post I'm getting first to third turn kills on a very regular basis. You usually drop to about 10 life, only lower if you happen to reveal an Ad Nauseam. Tendrils then hits for 20-22 minimum and went as high as 38. Often I even had a Duress a round before I started.

Apart from play errors that could have been avoided with more practice I fizzles only once because I killed myself with Ad Nauseam while not finding a single tutor for Tendrils in 25-30 cards.

The deck is also very flexible when it comes to mulligans.

Even without further testing against blue/black decks the card's power level is way to high for Legacy. I'm not whining btw, just stating how I see it.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

This card is stoopid good. I went to try to break it, then I just realized, you can get five mana then cast it. Done.

[rufus]

Apart from play errors that could have been avoided with more practice I fizzles only once because I killed myself with Ad Nauseam while not finding a single tutor for Tendrils in 25-30 cards.

There are 8 tutors and 2 tendrils. Assuming you burned one of those initially, that's still 9 cards any one of which should work, so the odds of failing to find one in 20 cards are about 1 in 1600.

[undone]

There are 8 tutors and 2 tendrils. Assuming you burned one of those initially, that's still 9 cards any one of which should work, so the odds of failing to find one in 20 cards are about 1 in 1600.

So a little more frequent then fizzling with desire:laugh:

Ways to break Drawing at will

Get 3BB. There, done.

Side note, this allows you to play force because you can stop midresolution and mini tendrils then just cast a 2nd one.

This card reads

3BB
Instant (SERIOUSLY WTF SHOUlD AT LEAST BE SORC!!)
If this card resolves, win the game.

Guess what there are a list of cards stronger then this, and they are the top 20-40 best cards in magic, this WILL take a spot there.

[Jaynel]

Just to clarify, you cannot play any spells until Ad Nauseum has resolved (you must choose to stop paying life and drawing cards before playing anything else). So you can't play Angel's Grace then keep on drawing.

[undone]

Who cares.

1) 50 cards that dont hurt you in a dec (lands)

or

2) Average CC of 1.5-2 + combo Heres an example of possible flips.

4 1/0 CC accel
1 win con 2 or 4 mana
1 land
1 Adnausium

13 life lost, accel into tendrils win.

[Poesjuh]

The card truly is insane, I got myself 4 already for €10,- total, that's about $14/$15,- ^^

[Peter_Rotten]

The card truly is insane, I got myself 4 already for €10,- total, that's about $14/$15,- ^^

Then we know that it is officially printed as we have it listed? :confused:

Anyway, I think I'll hold off on buying any. I still remember my 8 Mind's Desires :cry: .

I'm thinking of overhauling the posted deck list by adding red and removing the Culling/Critters/Diabolic. Also, Pact of Negation is stupid-stupid in this deck. Run it.

[Poesjuh]

I don't know. Msn buddy has some guy in Australia where he can buy for very cheap, so I said that if the card is being printed as it is know, I want 4 :P

I know what you mean though, had it a few times. Thought a card was going to sell high, but it didn't :P

[Pinder]

It seems like we finally got our "Blackt or Fiction". Fuck you, Moonlight Bargain.

[Sims]

3BB
Instant ( SERIOUSLY WTF SHOUlD AT LEAST BE SORC!! )
If this card resolves, win the game.

Not really. I don't know what reasoning they have for this card, if printed as was posted, to be an Instant... But I'm kind of glad, personally. As an Instant, this card cannot be Burning Wished for, and can easily be played in other black based control/board control decks and not just tendrils and storm combo.

[rufus]

Not really. I don't know what reasoning they have for this card, if printed as was posted, to be an Instant.

It could be Necrologia 2.0 which would make it a whole lot less potent.

[Frenger]

Just to clarify, you cannot play any spells until Ad Nauseum has resolved (you must choose to stop paying life and drawing cards before playing anything else). So you can't play Angel's Grace then keep on drawing.

1. Cast angel's grace (it says until EOT)
2. Cast ad nauseam
3. ???
4. Win

[MTG Guru]

1. Cast angel's grace (it says until EOT)
2. Cast ad nauseam
3. ???
4. Win

I wouldn't play a two card combo when you could be playing a one card combo. Ad Nauseum is pretty nuts by itself.

[The_Red_Panda]

1. Cast ad nauseam
2. ???
3. Profit

Fix'd. In this case, the ??? is actually winning the entire tournament, because your deck includes cheese like Ad Nauseum. Here's hoping for a pre-release banning for all formats besides vintage, where it will probably be restricted.


Hell, I'd consider putting this in Non-Combo decks, just because it could provide so much card advantage. It's manacost becomes a little restrictive at that point, but still, 5 mana for draw 6 and lose 4 life? Not bad.

[undone]

1) Cast As Nauseum
2) Stuff happens.
3) Collect first place

4) Go get some beers.

[m03]

Here's hoping for a pre-release banning for all formats besides vintage, where it will probably be restricted.

It wont be restricted in Vintage. There are too many other high-CC cards that will win you the game faster than this that would have to be cut in order to make it work. It's got "Mana Drain me" written all over it.

In Legacy, I'm looking forward to both building a deck around it, as well as countering it and getting a 3-for-1.

[Peter_Rotten]

It wont be restricted in Vintage. There are too many other high-CC cards that will win you the game faster than this that would have to be cut in order to make it work. It's got "Mana Drain me" written all over it.

Couldn't you say the same thing for Mind's Desire?

[Bryant Cook]

I love wizards for making TES more and more broken. <3

[Sims]

Couldn't you say the same thing for Mind's
Desire?

Difference is when they Drain a Desire, they'll never get to their next turn to actually get the mana, as the Storm copies from Desire will likely allow the game to be marked up to the Desire player as a W.

[Sun_Ra]

This card is ridiculous. I really can't believe it's really as spoiled. If so, Legacy is going to become play Storm or go home very quickly.

[thefreakaccident]

Not if it is banned ASAP... But I would buy a playset just to get a chance to win my tourney with FT a few more times.:cool:

[Jak]

So.. uh... I just sold my combo deck to pick up Survival. I almost bought 4 goyfs when they were a buck too!

Anyway, this card is broken and I hope it gets banned. I am positive it will be, actually.

[fallenphoenix]

I don't rly see, how it is much more game-breaking than resolving IGG after Tutor+2xRituals. (And you will proably have cast these before AdN, too)

Don't get me wrong, this card is insane and if it doesn't get banned, it will see a lot of play.
But vs discard/permission it isn't much better than previous cards that have made decks like FT, Iggy Pop, etc... possible.

Compare it to setup-cards like Doomsday, IGG or even Cruel Bargain. All of these will eventually win the game, if used correctly.

It might be the best among the setup-cards printed until this day (except for those already on the BL, i.e. Bargain/Necro).
Time will tell.


Challenge: Break this card in a non-combo-deck!

[Deep6er]

This card makes me so incredibly happy in my pants.

If Storm combo goes insane, I may end up playing Solidarity with four maindeck Twincasts. That would be pretty awesome I think.

(Obviously I would splash black to play the card too.)

(Oh God, I just realized that this would be the crazy go nutty with Flash of Insight for your deck.)

[Jaiminho]

I don't rly see, how it is much more game-breaking than resolving IGG after Tutor+2xRituals. (And you will proably have cast these before AdN, too)

The IGG loop requires an Infernal tutor and the ability to produce 6 mana per iteration or actually produce less than that, while using stored mana, which usually include 2 cards. Compare to a single card that only requires 5 mana to cast and maybe not even a spare mana to keep chaining spells after it resolved. Also, you won't touch your graveyard, so you won't be affected by recurred counterspells. There's no comparison here.

[The Rack]

GG Legacy.

[J.V.]

This card makes me so incredibly happy in my pants.

.... I may end up playing Solidarity with four maindeck Twincasts. That would be pretty awesome I think.

(Obviously I would splash black to play the card too.)

(Oh God, I just realized that this would be the crazy go nutty with Flash of Insight for your deck.)
The world is a just place again!

[BreathWeapon]

Difference is when they Drain a Desire, they'll never get to their next turn to actually get the mana, as the Storm copies from Desire will likely allow the game to be marked up to the Desire player as a W.

It'd replace a ton of mediocre threats in Vintage if it isn't restricted, it's rather difficult to Mana Drain thru' Force of Will and Duress, which makes it similar to Gifts Ungiven combo set ups.

[fallenphoenix]

Well the comparison comes here:

Resolve AdN (probably tutored for and most probably via some ritual/other mana accelerant) -> do some stuff including drawing cards and getting more mana -> win the game via storm-spells.

Resolve IGG/Doomsday/other (/w rituals/tutors, see above) -> do some stuff -> win the game...

Or even:
Resolve Future Sight... see above...

If your Opponent does not interfere, you should win in any scenario. If he does have a Force, you lose a lot of cards and probably the game.

Ofc AdN is the better card, but it's not like constant Turn 2 or 3 wins are unlikely with any of the prevalent combo-decks.

And w/o protection you're still going to lose to the same stupid cards that have always been causing headache. FoW, Durress/'seize, MM/Teeg (even more so)...


Also, having to pay life makes it tougher against straight forward aggrodecks, because it limits your ressources. Goyf-Sligh might already have dealt 10+ dmg and still have a Fireblast waiting for a surprising finish.
If combo decks are going to rely heavily on AdN, I would not be surprised to see some decent Zoo-Decks on the rise.


Again, don't get me wrong, this card is awesome and I'm glad that we finally see a card that is scratching on the edge of "fairness".
The mere fact, that this card is being considered to be a contender among legacy-staples is proof of it's power.

[Jak]

Igg isn't always GG. You play rit, LED, tutor, Igg, rit, led, tutor, tendrils is only 16. It is possible to not generate enough storm or mana to get an igg loop for 9 spells into a tendrils.

If this card resolves with Petals, Mox, Lands, rits, etc (not hard to get 5 mana turn one) it is GG. It is a tutor and an engine card built into one that wins the game.

[undone]

Challenge: Break this card in a non-combo-deck!

+4 in 43 land

take 10, manabond GO.

Done. This card is stupid, it should have the following line of text "Banned in formats with fast mana"

This card>format?

[badjuju]

Challenge: Break this card in a non-combo-deck!

lolwut.
That's like saying: break Tarmogoyf in a non-aggro deck! Oh wait.

[Jak]

Originally Posted by fallenphoenix


Challenge: Break this card in a non-combo-deck!

Impossible. This plus the mana to cast is the perfect combo!

[raharu]

It wont be restricted in Vintage. There are too many other high-CC cards that will win you the game faster than this that would have to be cut in order to make it work. It's got "Mana Drain me" written all over it.

In Legacy, I'm looking forward to both building a deck around it, as well as countering it and getting a 3-for-1.
Yawg. Bargain. Nuff said.

[Happy Gilmore]

Honestly, I am just reliveved that this is not a sorcery, it might just be too good otherwise.

I do like however, how it allows a deck like iggy pop to no longer be graveyard dependent. Simply awesome. Although its still probably better in a deck like TES.

[J.V.]

Honestly, I am just reliveved that this is not a sorcery, it might just be too good otherwise.


QFT! Imagine being able to burning wish for this nonsense.

[The Rack]

This card is not really good. It's broken in half. All the black rituals are instants. EOT draw my library. I'd play this in 1 land belcher. YOu don't have 2 Forces for my Charbelchers? GG The card is way overpowered and if it's real, then Wizards is really stupid.

[Forbiddian]

The argument that this is "just another Iggy" is ridiculous, on multiple levels. First, Ad Nauseum isn't a little bit better, it's a 1-card combo. Resolve me and I win. It's 2 mana cheaper than Belcher, and doesn't require Land Grant. It's probably worse than Flash Hulk, but it only requires one card.


Hand: Land, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual (or any two Petal or Cabal) + Ad Nauseum = win turn 1.


To win with Ill-Gotten Gains, you need all of that, PLUS even more mana AND at least one tutor.

IGG basically tries to go for a turn 2 endstep Intuition into a turn 3 win. That's the fallback gameplan, and it's usually how the deck gets played. Turn 2 win isn't too hard, and turn 1 win is possible, but highly unlikely.

The other problem is that IGG is susceptible to residual graveyard hate leftover from Ichorid, etc. To hate out Ad Nauseum... I can't even think of anything. They can easily play around an Orim's Chant, either with a turn 1 Duress or Thoughtseize to or by resolving Ad Nauseum and then setting up the kill for the next turn by drawing into a tutor more fast mana. I'm sure there's some stuff that will come up to hate on AdN.dec, but anything I can think of other than 4 Forces, 4 Dazes, 8 Duresses.dec will just roll over and die to this.

Anyway, the final problem with AdN (as if the others weren't enough) is that Iggy-Pop is probably the best deck in the format minus hate. Everyone boards in enough Tormod's Crypts and stuff to keep Ichorid and Iggy-Pop numbers down, but even if AdN played like Ill-Gotten Gains 5-8 in Iggy-Pop, it would put Iggy over the top.

Already I have like 5-8 sideboard cards devoted to hating out the unstoppable combo decks in this format. Bumping that number any higher and the format becomes really unstable. It's just a coinflip vs. the combo decks and then you don't have enough sideboard slots remaining to make any of the other matchups interesting.

[The Rack]

How many people actually believe that it's a real card? There hasn't been any pictures so it could just be a cruel joke.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let's not exaggerate. Flash-Hulk was easily the most broken combo ever seen because it allowed you to run more control than the control decks. This card would still require all but maybe 8 slots be dedicated to the combo.

That being said, it's probably more powerful than anything short of Bargain of Will in storm combo. Arguably more powerful than Black Lotus or Ancestral Recall would be, although much more limited in scope.

[thefreakaccident]

How many people actually believe that it's a real card? There hasn't been any pictures so it could just be a cruel joke.

That would be the most hilarious thing ever, especially since it is already being sold for preorder on ebay...

[The Rack]

IBA: With respect, I think that this is better than Hulk Flash for these reasons.

1.1 card combo
2.It's one more card for Control and Aggrocontrol decks that must be dealt with
3.It's Black, making it workable from the best rituals in the game
4.It makes TES, FT, and SI THE best decks in Legacy
5.There is nothing that is more powerful than it in the format

That's how I see it.

[4eak]

That being said, it's probably more powerful than anything short of Bargain of Will in storm combo

Yes.


Arguably more powerful than Black Lotus or Ancestral Recall would be, although much more limited in scope.

In environments in which Black Lotus and Ancestral are played, AdN isn't nearly as powerful. Even if I could only choose one (Lotus, A-Call, or AdN) to add my Legacy decks, AdN would always come in third (that is even restricted power vs. 4x AdN).


I think that this is better than Hulk Flash for these reasons.

1.1 card combo
2.It's one more card for Control and Aggrocontrol decks that must be dealt with
3.It's Black, making it workable from the best rituals in the game
4.It makes TES, FT, and SI THE best decks in Legacy
5.There is nothing that is more powerful than it in the format

Hulk Flash wins as an instant (like how Solidarity works) when built correctly. Hulk Flash is much, much cheaper, and it is in even stronger control colors. Hulk Flash, evolved over months of tuning, would still be a way stronger deck than anything AdN will ever make in Legacy. Flash is retardedly broken. It is the best combo ever made thus far: it is the easiest to assemble, it wins as an instant (in response to anything), and it is the easiest to protect.



peace,
4eak

[thefreakaccident]

IBA: With respect, I think that this is better than Hulk Flash for these reasons.

1.1 card combo
2.It's one more card for Control and Aggrocontrol decks that must be dealt with
3.It's Black, making it workable from the best rituals in the game
4.It makes TES, FT, and SI THE best decks in Legacy
5.There is nothing that is more powerful than it in the format

That's how I see it.

Are you really comparing this to Flash?

A BLUE (meaning countermagic), 2 mana instant that won the game...

Jake... come on!


Besides, everyone knows that the most broken card in legacy is currently mountain goat.

[The Rack]

No, Flash was a two mana instant that required Protean Hulk to be in your hand. That's a BIG difference. I may be wrong on comparing it to Flash, but I haven't really received any good reasons why.

[thefreakaccident]

Its the cost and color

EDIT: This card doesn't actually win the game either, it is just a storm enabler that draws a shitton of cards that we would hope gets the job done...

AND! It isn't blue.


The card is broken as hell, and very good and all that stuff... but hulk-flash was the most degenerate thing that has ever happened to legacy ever, and this card doesn't come close to that power level (note that I am still calling this broken... just imagine IMO how powerful I thought flash was).

[The Rack]

It may be in a weaker color but the thing is it doesn't need a deck built around it to win. It can win in decks that were already doing just fine. It is truly a one card combo.

[emidln]

FT, Doomsday, and SI would definitively not play this card. However, a list based on QSI might be pretty decent. I would start all of my testing from something like this:

// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [AL] Shield Sphere
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker
4 [UNH] "Ach! Hans, Run!"

// Spells
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor

Edit: apparently undone posted this list within 6 cards like 8 hours ago. Go go emidln not reading every thread.

[Van Phanel]

4 [UNH] "Ach! Hans, Run!"


Would be a solid choice, but you'll take a lot of lifeloss from revealing this.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Would be a solid choice, but you'll take a lot of lifeloss from revealing this.

But it would be worth it...

[Xero]

That would be the most hilarious thing ever, especially since it is already being sold for preorder on ebay...

It's probably real. Still, I remember when Slithermuse was going to be the thing that broke Storm Combo until the card was confirmed differently than it was rumored. Maybe the :3: in the mana cost is actually an :8: or something.

[Derklord]

// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [AL] Shield Sphere
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker

// Spells
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
Nearly the same List I used for first testing (-4 brainstorm +4 lands)
Why play fetchlands? You don't need deck thining and the lifeloss actually matters sometimes. Gemstone mine > Fetchlands here. Also helps casting potential Sideboard stuff.

Whenever Ad Nauseam hits play you have won. Any bounce? Just draw into Pact. Low on life? End AdN, cast tendrils, cast the next AdN.

Did anybody notice how ridiculously cheap that would be? If you replace Underground Seas with Undiscovered Paradises, Chrome mox is the only card >10$.

[BreathWeapon]

FT, Doomsday, and SI would definitively not play this card. However, a list based on QSI might be pretty decent. I would start all of my testing from something like this:

// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [AL] Shield Sphere
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker
4 [UNH] "Ach! Hans, Run!"

// Spells
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor

Edit: apparently undone posted this list within 6 cards like 8 hours ago. Go go emidln not reading every thread.

The card is fine in both FT and SI, you don't need the 8 creature + Culling the Weak shell to make it work.

[MTG Guru]

Would be a solid choice, but you'll take a lot of lifeloss from revealing this.

I'm assuming he meant that to be a proxy of Ad Nauseum.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi

Is it smart to make the deck so reliant on Ad Nauseam. I like it alot more in TES actually. Allthough the deck needs to be reworked, I like it that it can you still can win, if Ad Nauseam is stopped( Extirpate or MM or something). I probably go -1 Infernal Contract +1 Ad Nauseam.

On another note, does Evil Roopey has something to do with this? I mean he made( correct me if I'm wrong though) the Tendrils deck Nausea... Seems like this cards says put me in that deck. At least the name should be good for the deck.

BB

[BreathWeapon]

Nearly the same List I used for first testing (-4 brainstorm +4 lands)
Why play fetchlands? You don't need deck thining and the lifeloss actually matters sometimes. Gemstone mine > Fetchlands here. Also helps casting potential Sideboard stuff.

Whenever Ad Nauseam hits play you have won. Any bounce? Just draw into Pact. Low on life? End AdN, cast tendrils, cast the next AdN.

Did anybody notice how ridiculously cheap that would be? If you replace Underground Seas with Undiscovered Paradises, Chrome mox is the only card >10$.

Odd thought, but have people considered using Cunning Wish since it can tutor for Ad Nauseam, Brain Freeze and a ton of utility? Probably worse than Grim Tutor, I just thought it's worth noting.

[Brehn]

Currently I am seeing the following possibilities for using Ad Nauseam in a combo deck:

1) Kobold Nausea. Basically what is described in the opening post and what emidln wrote, a deck that includes 0-mana creatures, Culling the Weak, possibly Diabolic Intent. For disruption it can use Cabal Therapy and Pact of Negation. The usual consistency problems of SI will arise. Also, the threat density is significantly reduced if one cuts Draw4s. A strength of SI was always that one could continue after a countered Draw4 by just playing the next Draw4, this is not possible here.
2) The existent TES deck with a singleton Ad Nauseam main. It might replace Diminishing Returns. It will improve the deck a little bit, but not much.
3) The "Turn2-Deck". I've thrown some cards together and got a deck that wins on turn 2 (Tendrils) with a consistency that outclasses TES and Belcher by far. From what I can see, defining cards are Mystical Tutor and Manamorphose. One has to test how much disruption this deck can include to still work. Basically, it plays like Belcher that gives the opponent one more turn but cuts off the chance of stealing a game with EtW-answers and mulligans a lot less than Belcher.
4) Solidarity with black splash. Because Gearhart said it. No idea if this will work, I'm not too much into Solidarity.
5) A revamped TES deck which focuses more on Ad Nauseam as an enabler than anything else. jegger has posted an example UBR list in the TES thread, but in goldfishing I've fizzled with Ad Nauseam about 40% of the times I've cast it. This will need some work.
6) A more controllish FT-like approach that only casts Ad Nauseam at the end of the opponent's turn. I can imagine that this might work, but I have no idea how to build it.

[freakish777]

Odd thought, but have people considered using Cunning Wish since it can tutor for Ad Nauseam, Brain Freeze and a ton of utility? Probably worse than Grim Tutor, I just thought it's worth noting.

Seems bad. The better thing to do is run 4 Mystical Tutor, giving you 8 maindeck AdN, 4 of which cost :3::b::b::u: and cause you to "discard" a card, as opposed to 7 maindeck AdN, 4 of which cost :5::b::b::u:

Additionally:

Mystical Tutor is better against discard than Cunning Wish.
No one considered running Cunning Wish to grab Flash at GP Columbus (you want Mystical Tutor here to either grab AdN or Dark Rit for the turn 2 kill, you don't ever accelerate into Cunning Wish).



EDIT:

Kobolds? As in "I play Glimpse of Nature" Kobolds?

[idraleo]

I just came up with this BR decklist, it have good potential and seems to did a constant 2nd turn closure. It also uses Bunring Wish, wich is very good because reduces our high casting cost only on Ad Nauseam. I run Kobolds over robots because they' re pitchable on Chrome Moxes.

// Lands
4 [DIS] Blood Crypt
4 [A] Badlands

// Creatures
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds

// Spells
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [EX] Culling the Weak
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [US] Reprocess
SB: 1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy


The main closure is Grapeshot, wich is better than Tendrils in this build because it is cheaper and thanks to the slow curve we loss less life then UB versions. The protection is the same, 4 Pacts and 3 Therapyes plus the wishable one, the major loss is Brainstorm wich protect us from sweepers, but those decklist plays an huge numer of Tutors so is unfair to did a match where we don' t see any card between AdN, BW and DI...

[BreathWeapon]

Seems bad. The better thing to do is run 4 Mystical Tutor, giving you 8 maindeck AdN, 4 of which cost :3::b::b::u: and cause you to "discard" a card, as opposed to 7 maindeck AdN, 4 of which cost :5::b::b::u:

Additionally:

Mystical Tutor is better against discard than Cunning Wish.
No one considered running Cunning Wish to grab Flash at GP Columbus (you want Mystical Tutor here to either grab AdN or Dark Rit for the turn 2 kill, you don't ever accelerate into Cunning Wish).



EDIT:

Kobolds? As in "I play Glimpse of Nature" Kobolds?

You're probably right.

For the B/r lists, I think 4 Ad Nauseam with 4 Empty the Warrens is really strong, because they have to counter acceleration as their default choice and it's not difficult to ramp your mana back up for the Ad Nauseam.

I still think U/b with FoW is the way to go tho'.

[Brehn]

I still think U/b with FoW is the way to go tho'.

Have fun building a non-suicidal list with Tendrils and Force of Will main.

[idraleo]

Yep running AdN+Force+Tendrils is unfair. Sometimes happens to get busted only by some 1-2cc spells + 1 AdN revealed, that's why i dropped blue in favour of red, wich gaves best tutors and an efficent slow mana finisher such as Grapeshot.

[BreathWeapon]

Have fun building a non-suicidal list with Tendrils and Force of Will main.

Ok, I'll just throw Ad Nauseum into every pre-existing Storm deck, something any one else could do, with out bothering to try anything innovative or to do basic math to see whether or not it's even viable ... WTF

Any one can win by casting AdN, it's the non Storm, non graveyard and non draw 7 aspect of the card that leads us to deck building options. I mean, it's not rocket science to know when to stop drawing, cast Tendrils for less and then use your card advantage to win on a later turn.

Have you never played SI or what?

[Brehn]

Ok, I'll just throw Ad Nauseum into every pre-existing Storm deck, something any one else could do, with out bothering to try anything innovative or to do basic math to see whether or not it's even viable ... WTF

WTF are you talking about? I could also ask you to do the basic math to see whether FoW+Tendrils+AdN is viable.


I mean, it's not rocket science to know when to stop drawing, cast Tendrils for less and then use your card advantage to win on a later turn.

List or it didn't happen. Are you playing 4 Tendrils? Also, is there any card advantage left after you've drawn 4-5 cards paying 9-12 life and played 4-5 spells for a mini Tendrils?

[BreathWeapon]

WTF are you talking about? I could also ask you to do the basic math to see whether FoW+Tendrils+AdN is viable.



List or it didn't happen. Are you playing 4 Tendrils? Also, is there any card advantage left after you've drawn 4-5 cards paying 9-12 life and played 4-5 spells for a mini Tendrils?

You're missing the point, it doesn't matter whether or not it works or it doesn't work, it's about not pre-judging the card and decks based on 0 experience and putting in the effort to research an idea rather than being a worthless, non-constructive critic. Do your own testing.

It's like "Confidant + Colossus lolz" all over again.

[Brehn]

Maybe I've missed the point because you haven't made it before?

Anyway, I'll explain why I think that this idea doesn't lead to anything: Skeletal Scrying exists and I think we can agree that it's not broken. If you're trying to break Ad Nauseam by playing it in the opponent's end of turn step, you have to assure that it is better than Skeletal Scrying all the time. For 3BB, Scrying draws you 4 cards for 4 life. So you'll have to draw significantly more than 4 cards to break Ad Nauseam. With each copy of Force of Will, Tendrils of Agony and Ad Nauseam in the deck the average amount of cards you'll be able to draw will shrink. Sure you can draw 5 cards for 10 life, play a mini Tendrils and continue to win. But you could have done that pre-Shards with Scrying and you didn't. I don't think it's possible to draw more than 5 cards reliably with Forces, Tendrils and additional Ad Nauseams in the deck.

[undone]

Ad Nauseam, the card so broken that it made commandeer good.

[Brehn]

Ad Nauseam, the card so broken that it made commandeer good.

Also the end of the world is near.

[Willoe]

How many cards do you really need to draw with Ad Nauseam for it to be "oh so broken"? I'd call eight, but maybe that's just me.

With eight cards in your deck, then 20/8=2.5. Then your average cmc will have to be at most 2,4, assuming that you have no other cards in your deck which cost you life. Can this be done? After all, a playset of Ad Nauseam pulls the average cmc a bit up.

I know this card is pretty busted, I'm just wondering if it's any better alternative than the already existing draw4s and Diminishing Returns. I mean, i.e. diminishing gives you +6 card advantage (with an empty hand), and have a small risk of killing you by milling away all your key cards.

A couple of questions:
1. Do you think that combo decks will have a comeback with this card?
2. Does it improve anything against the countertop matchup?
3. Is the fact that it's an instant the most important?
4. Would the card had been playable if it was a sorcery?

The reason why I'm asking question 4 is that all the other CA spells except for Meditate are at sorcery speed.

Anyway, good job WotC by creating a nice instant/sorcery card.

[emidln]

Nearly the same List I used for first testing (-4 brainstorm +4 lands)
Why play fetchlands? You don't need deck thining and the lifeloss actually matters sometimes. Gemstone mine > Fetchlands here. Also helps casting potential Sideboard stuff.

Brainstorm


Whenever Ad Nauseam hits play you have won

This isn't entirely true. To make it true, you need to write "Whenever Ad Nauseam hits play you have won if you have at least 12-15 life in a shell with Culling the Weak. The fewer accel spells you play (dropping them for tutoring or control), the more life you will need, on average, to make AdN give you enough cards for a lethal tendrils.

@ the FT discussion

In lists with a full 12 acceleration spells in the original FT lists you burn 1-3 accel to cast this thing. Now you need to draw into Tendrils (4 life), Mystical + Cantrip (2 life, required UU), and some way to cast Tendrils. On turn 2-3 you get to do this at roughly 18 life. With a singleton AdN and Sensei's Tops replacing Street Wraith, you end up with an average mana cost of about 1 for the cards left in your deck (assuming your total CMC of FT is about 68 and you've burnt roughly 8-9 to cast AdN with 49-50 cards left in deck while accounting for the fact that AdN + several other cards aren't in your deck). Now the problematic part is that you desperately need to draw into Tendrils. You can do it off AdN naturally (longer odds) or attempt to force the issue with something like Infernal Tutor + LEd or Mystical Tutor + cantrip. These are not too difficult to setup, but tend to be out of the range of the deck's capabilities if you want to win the turn you cast AdN.

It is better to play AdN at eot. This is preferential for you because it lets you only search until you find Mystical Tutor, Infernal + LED, or Tendrils instead of requiring UU + Mystical Tutor + Cantrip, Tendrils or even more ritual effects. The drawback to playing AdN at end of turn is that you will waste any storm you generate playing and protection AdN. The converse is that you can untap with the ability to play protection spells and acceleration with the need to worry about hitting a 4-of Lotus Petal.

The drawback to waiting until turn 2-3 is you give the opponent a chance to simply build up a minor counterwall. That is, they treat AdN as any other setup spell. They can then gamble that you don't naturally draw a Tendrils and attempt to counter Chants and bombs like Infernal Tutor or Mystical Tutor. While this isn't an immediately obvious play, the risks involved in potentially letting you find multiple chants could be worth it when the fact that if they are able to deal with perhaps Chant + bomb they can likely kill you with a single attack from Tarmogoyf/Mishra's Factory/random beater.

This doesn't sound like something I want to play with. It's actually unplayable in more recent builds of FT because of the low acceleration count, and playing this won't solve any of the issues that the older builds had against Thresh (the primary reason to move to newer builds).

[jazzykat]

IMO it's busted, how much so I have no idea, but 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 LED, and maybe for the sake of the combo some amount of Mox Diamonds to keep the CC low and pitch the lands you are going to hit could give you anywhere from 20-25% of the deck free + whatever amount of lands you put in it.

Also as stated pact of negation may find a home, and instead of thoughtseize you can play duress to save you 2 life.

I don't know when about half your deck is free if it's fair or not but counterbalance/top still exists...

BTW: Maybe this is what Trix wanted? It's a lot easier to win with an extra 20 life right?

[Happy Gilmore]

We will be testing it this weekend. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[Peter_Rotten]

I know this card is pretty busted, I'm just wondering if it's any better alternative than the already existing draw4s and Diminishing Returns. I mean, i.e. diminishing gives you +6 card advantage (with an empty hand), and have a small risk of killing you by milling away all your key cards.

It is more flexible than Returns.

I think a better comparison is to a "fixed" Mind's Desire.

[Van Phanel]

Also the end of the world is near.

Has Ad Nauseam destroyed Magic yet?

Answer (http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/)

[rufus]

The reason why I'm asking question 4 is that all the other CA spells except for Meditate are at sorcery speed.

Necrologia, Skeletal Scrying, Stroke of Genius, Gifts Ungiven...

It's broken because:
1. It's Black so it's easy to accelerate into.
2. The cost per card is stupidly low.

7 cards is sufficient. (Consider Memory Jar.)

At this point, I expect this to be an 'end of turn' or 'upkeep' only card.

[Willoe]

A fixed Mind's Desire? Hmm, Mind's Desire is millions of times better than this card, Mind's Desire is in my opinion one of the most busted cards ever printed.
I give you that it reminds me of Desire. Reminds.

PR^

I often think that a draw7 is good, but giving you that extra card to give you an ACTUAL new hand is far better. You get +7 card advantage by drawing 8, and +6 by drawing7. 7 is a good number, and 7 is after all more than 6. This was some weird logic, but maybe it's just me who feels this way about massive card advantage.

But Rufus, it's not broken because:

1. Its cost is 5, after all, and not many hands contain a double ritual. It's a lot harder to reach five mana and not four.

2. It doesn't win the game when it resolves. It maybe will. With Bargain, you draw 19, with this you draw cards equal to your average cmc. Divide your life with your avg. cmc and you get the number of cards that you averagely earn. It's also a very risky card. You never know if you'll slam into another AdN or a Tendrils.

It's true that it's good for the reasons you said, but I'm calling power creeped, not broken.

[freakish777]

Here's the lists so far in this thread (someone want to copy and paste the one in the TES thread?):

List 1:


12x Swamp
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Dark Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Duress
2x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Diabolic Intent
2x Tendrils of Agony
4x Ad Nauseam

total casting cost: 58. Average cc < 1 (keep in mind if you're playing an AdN, the rest of your deck cc goes down a bit).

List 2:

// Lands
4 [DIS] Blood Crypt
4 [A] Badlands

// Creatures
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds

// Spells
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [EX] Culling the Weak
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

Total cc = 48... Average cc < 1 (about 2/3rds when you consider you only have 3 AdNs left in your deck at most).
List 3:

// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [u] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [AL] Shield Sphere
4 [VI] Phyrexian Walker
4 Ad Nauseum

// Spells
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor

Total cc = 64. Average cc just barely > 1.

So assume you're sitting on 13 life after getting hit from a Goyf, some Burn spells, your own lands, whatever. With these lists you're looking at an average above 10 cards (about what IBA said he was goldfishing).

I would assume in TES it would be a higher average cc, but I'm too lazy to go get a list from another thread...

[technogeek5000]

I dont know if this has been brought up, but ad Nauseam not only seems busted in combo, but in 43 lands too. Turn three you can put out 20-30 lands, lock down your opponents next turn, and swing for lethal the turn after.

I truly hope they ban this card. It really unbalances the format in combos favor.

[undone]

1) Its broken because there will be 4 in every deck, combo or not.

2) I saw this card litteraly the first thing I said was "take 10, draw 30, manabond GO"

3) Its insane we all know that.

[sunshine]

hmmm... orb of insight gives zero hits for 'ad nauseum' or 'repeat this process'

[georgjorge]

I thought about 42Land too, but then realized that with Manabond, you'll discard it, and with Exploration, that's only turn three, enough time for about every deck to get rid of it. It would be sweet, but probably not going to happen.

[undone]

hmmm... orb of insight gives zero hits for 'ad nauseum' or 'repeat this process'

O really? odd.

Probably not a hox just a mistemplated card.

[Deep6er]

hmmm... orb of insight gives zero hits for 'ad nauseum' or 'repeat this process'

Yeah, I don't think the Orb interprets multiple words. I just input the following phrases: "Comes into play" and "deals damage" with zero hits.

However, I DID put in the word "Ad" and one hit came up. Same thing for "repeat".

EDIT: Turns out there is a hit for the word "nauseam". So, that's one for "Ad" and one for "nauseam". Seems pretty good to me. That's technically how the phrase goes.

[Xero]

There is one hit each for 3BB as well. That doesn't necessarily mean that the card is accurate as spoiled, but it does seem more likely. Of course, if we get another card with that CC, we will know something is wrong.

[undone]

It just occured to me, black gets single cards which make a mockery of magic.

I guess they have to keep the theme.

[BreathWeapon]

It just occured to me, black gets single cards which make a mockery of magic.

I guess they have to keep the theme.

Poor Blue, "They took your job!"

[Volt]

.

[undone]

Poor Blue, "They took your job!"

Na blue is meant to make a minor mockery of the format its being used in.

Black is normaly balanced, but every once in a while it flips the game off and mocks the world.

[Blade]

hmmm... orb of insight gives zero hits for 'ad nauseum' or 'repeat this process'

The orb can only search for 1 word at a time.

Ad - 1
Nauseam - 1
Repeat - 1
this - 69
Process - 1

---

Ok, well I just goldfished 3 games using a standard SI build replacing Infernal Contract with Ad Nauseam. I assume I always play 1st and my opponent does nothing. Lets see how it went:

Deck
2 Bayou
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Culling the Weak
4 Infernal Contract/Ad Nauseam)
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
4 Pact of Negation
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony

3 games with Ad Nauseam
Hand:
Shield Sphere, Ad Nauseam, Land Grant,Culling the Weak, 2xTendrils, Cruel Bargin

Play Land Grant, get Bayou. Play Shield Sphere, use bayou play Culling the Weak Use 3 to play Cruel Bargin -10 10 life. Draw Shield Sphere Tendrils, Pact and Walker. Nothing to do, pass turn (hand - Ad Nauseam, 3xTendrils, Shield Sphere, Pact Walker)

Next turn draw Cabal Ritual. Not enough mana so play Shield Sphere and pass (hand - Ad Nauseam, 3xTendrils, Cabal Ritual, Pact Walker)

Next turn draw Walker. Drop walker an pass. (hand - Ad Nauseam, 3xTendrils, Cabal Ritual, Pact Walker)

Next turn draw a Mox. Yay! Drop Mox, removing 1 Tendrils. Nothing to play though and only 4 cards in GY, so I pass. (hand - Ad Nauseam, 2xTendrils, Cabal Ritual, Pact Walker)

Its now turn 5. Had that Ad Naseum been an IC I could have drawn 4. Draw a Dark Ritual. Play dark ritual off of bayou. Use 1 mana from ritual and 1 from Mox to play cabal ritual. 5 mana. Play Ad Nauseam

Reveals:
Walker - 10 life
Dark Ritual - 9 life
Bayou - 9 life
Land Grant - 7 life
Belcher - 3 life.
I stop here (for those interested, the next card would have been Chrome Mox).

So I drew 5 cards for 7 life. Had I played IC it could have been 4 for 5, 1 turn earlier. Play Bayou. Not enough mana avalible to storm, so I play a walker and pass the turn. (hand - Walker Dark Ritual Land Grant Tendrils Tendrils PACT Belcher Walker)

Next turn draw Chrome Mox. I carefully look at the situation and realize that I cannot possibly combo this turn (turn 6 and I still haven't gone off.) I play the Mox removing another tendrils and pass. (Hand - Walker, Dark Ritual, Land Grant, Tendrils, Pact, Belcher Walker)

Next turn draw ANOTHER Ad Nauseam. I have the mana so I tap Bayou for dark rit and 2 moxen for Ad Nauseam:

Revealed
Infernal Tutor - -2, 1 life remaining.
Do I risk it? Why not?
LED! - 1 life remaining.
Now, if I can stay alive for 1 turn I can combo!

Next turn, draw lotus petal, play LED, tap 4 for belcher, LED => Belcher. Win after 8 turns.

-------

G2 -
2x Cabal Ritual, Walker, Pact, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal, Land Grant

No draw but a decent hand.

Play Land Grant grabbing Bayou. Pass (Hand - 2xCR, Walker, Pact, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal).

Next turn draw Culling the Weak. Still no draw. Pass (Hand - Culling the Weak, 2xCR, Walker, Pact, Dark Ritual, Lotus Petal)

Next turn draw another Cabal Ritual. Sigh. 8 cards so I play the Lotus Petal and pass.(Hand - Culling the Weak, 3xCR, Walker, Pact, Dark Ritual)

Next turn, draw Ad Nauseam. Play walker and tap bayou for Culling the Weak. Use to for Cabal Ritual. 5 mana, play Ad Nauseam

Revealed -
Infernal Tutor - -2 life, 18 life
Walker - 18 life
Infernal Tutor - -2 Life, 16 life
Walker - 16 life
Cruel Bargin - -3, 13 life
Infernal Tutor - -2, 11 life
Culling the Weak - -1, 10 life
Bayou - 10 life
Ad Naseum - -5, 5 life
Tendrils - -4, 1 life.

Wow, 10 cards for 19 life. Not bad actually.

Play Bayou and both walkers. Use Culling the Weak off of bayou: ( 4 mana , storm 9.) Play Cabal Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Dark Ritual, (12 mana, storm 12). Infernal Tutor for Tendrils. Play 2 Tendrils for lethal.

Wow, it looks like it works.

---

G3

Culling the Weak, 2XWalker, Cruel Bargin, Cabal Ritual, Belcher, Infernal Tutor
Not a good hand. Mull

Tendrils, 2x Lotus Petal, Bayou, Mox, Land Grant.

Better

Play Bayou and Land Grant. Pass. (Hand - Tendrils, 2x Lotus Petal, Bayou, Mox)

Next turn Draw pact. Nothing. Pass (Hand - Tendrils, 2x Lotus Petal, Bayou, Mox, Pact)

Next turn draw Belcher. Play 2 Lotus Petal, bayou and mox removing pact. Play belcher keeping 1 Lotus Petal. Pass (Hand - Tendrils)

Next turn draw Lotus Petal. Go off on belcher.

No draw that game so its hard to tell.


conclusion
Average turn going off - 5.333...
Average cards drawn total - 7
Average cards drawn off Ad Naseum - 5


3 games with Infernal Contract

G1 -
Cabal Ritual, Land Grant, Tendrils, Infernal Tutor, pact, Culling the Weak, Cruel Bargin

Ugh. I keep but not happy about it.

Play Land Grant for Bayou. Drop Bayou. Pass (Hand - Cabal Ritual,Tendrils, Infernal Tutor, pact, Culling the Weak, Cruel Bargin)

Next turn, LED. Drop LED and pass (Hand - Cabal Ritual,Tendrils, Infernal Tutor, pact, Culling the Weak, Cruel Bargin)

Next turn Belcher. Pass (Hand - Cabal Ritual,Tendrils, Infernal Tutor, pact, Culling the Weak, Cruel Bargin, Belcher)

Next turn Mox. Play mox removing Pact. Tap out for Cabal Ritual into Cruel Bargin. Draw LED, Mox, Shield Sphere, Lotus Petal. 10 Life.

Drop Mox removing tendrils. Drop Shield Sphere, Lotus Petal and LED. Tap mox for Culling the Weak. Use 4 mana to play belcher. Use LED for belcher with 1 land in deck. Belcher hits for 22.

---

G2
LED, Walker, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, Mox, Pact, Bayou.

Drop Bayou and pass (Hand - LED, Walker, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, Mox, Pact)

Next turn draw another mox. Pass.(Hand - LED, Walker, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, 2x Mox, Pact)

Next turn walker. Play the Walker and pass. (Hand - LED, Walker, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, 2x Mox, Pact)

Next turn Cabal Ritual. Need draw... Play other walker and pass (Hand - LED, Cabal Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, Mox, Pact)

Next turn, IGG. Play LED and pass. (Hand - IGG, Walker, Dark Ritual, Tendrils, 2x Mox, Pact)

Next turn, Infernal Tutor. Perfect. Play Mox removing pact and another removing tendrils. Play cabal ritual and dark ritual and tap mox (6 mana in pool, storm 4). Play IGG and respond with LED. Retrieve Tendrils, Tutor and LED. (4 mana in pool, storm 5). Play LED. Play Infernal Tutor and respond with LED. Fetch IGG (5 mana in pool storm 7). Play IGG getting Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual and Tendrils. Use last mana for Dark Ritual then Cabal Ritual Tendrils for 20.
---

G3
LED, Tendrils, 2xSS, 2xIC, Lotus Petal.

Play Lotus Petal and pass (Hand - LED, Tendrils, 2xSS, 2xIC)

Next turn, Mox. Play mox removing IC and pass. (Hand - LED, Tendrils,
2xSS, IC)

Next turn Mox. Play mox removing Tendrils. Draw Land Grant, IGG, 2XCR. Pass (Hand - Land Grant, IGG, 2XCR)

Next turn Dark Ritual. Use mox to cast 2xCR and Dark Ritual and grab a bayou with Land Grant (mana 6 storm 5). Play IGG, respond with LED (mana 5, storm 6). Get back Dark Ritual, LED an IC. Play Dark Ritual and LED (mana 7 storm 8). Play IC and respond with LED (mana 7 storm 8). 5 life draw: Land Grant, Dark Ritual, Mox, Walker. Nothing useful and lethal mana in pool. You lose.


Conclusions
Average turn going off - 4.666...
Average cards drawn - 1.333...
Average cards drawn from IC - 1.333...

Overall
This test seems to suggest that Ad Nauseum does indeed work quite well. More testing is needed, but it looks awesome

After more extensive testing with this build it seems that Ad Nauseam reads pay 19 life: draw 10-11 cards. Amazing.

[The_Red_Panda]

What I think you're missing is that that is a pretty lousy build to put AdN into. What you need is a TON of low-cost cards, and
1x Belcher
3xTendrils
2x IGG
4xAdN,
4x Cruel bargain
seems like too much. I would even go so far as to say optimal builds with AdN will not run any cards over 2 mana that aren't Tendrils, 1x IGG or AdN. And your 2-mana Cards are probably going to be Infernal tutor x4 and Cabal Ritual x4. The rest of your deck should probably be at or below 1cc. Plus, the nega-synergy wafting off of Cruel Bargain + AdN is horrendous. You want a full 20 life when you start flipping with AdN. I might even look into Grapeshot, if only for having 2 less CC than Tendrils. It probably won't pan out for shit, but still, you get the idea.



I'm already getting sick of Ad Nauseam.

ba-dum-ch

It's as if all these posts are repeating the same thing, over and over; AdN is busted, AdN is busted, AdN is busted, AdN is busted. :rolleyes:

[undone]

A better fast build would be something like

4 tall men
4 tall men
4 C mox
4 L pedel
4 Pact of negation

4 duress
4 dark ritual
4 Culling of the weak
4 mystical tutor
1 bounce spell (either chain of vapor, or wipe away)
4 Cabal ritual

4 Tendrils
4 Ad Nauseum

11 gold lands (COB Gemstone and Orcherd)

Try that, you get more cards and can more easily use these and you get amazing disruption.

Total CC is 61, however you are sure that you are going to draw your ad nauseums for sure, as well as having duress and you have tutors for tendrils after you finish your ad nauseum Keep in mind the following.

"Cast adnauseum in upkeep, now still during upkeep cast mystical -> tendrils/whatever" It leads to insane BS.
EDIT: LED does not play well with adnauseum, unless your tutoring for it.

[rufus]

If you really want to play a draw-4, it might as well be Meditate - it's not a big stretch for the manabase to be modified to 2U and the lost turn is going be less painful than the lost life.

[raharu]

If you really want to play a draw-4, it might as well be Meditate - it's not a big stretch for the manabase to be modified to 2U and the lost turn is going be less painful than the lost life.
Or not play a draw-4 at all and play something like undone's list, which is, IMO, the best concept, and most likely the best list for Ad Nauseum. srsly, cheap shit + a metric fuckton of draw that works best with cheap shit = ++win. The average cmc is fucking 0.9016393442622950819672131147541.

That's an appreciable amount less than one. Imagine a hand like this:

Land, D Rit, Tall Man, Tall Man, Culling, Mystical, Petal.

~2 cards of chaffish (Robots). Open with:

Land, Robot, Mystical, go.

t2:

Draw Ad Nauseum (did I really even have to tell you what I was tutoring for???). Robot, Culling, D. Rit, Ad Nauseum, draw 15 comfortably, assume a Tendrils is in the top 1/3 of your deck that you drew, along with some mana, fucking win.

It's that simple. Have access to Ad Nauseum, use it to gain access to cheap mana, win conditions, and protection, and fucking win. Stop making it complicated with Belchers and IGG and shit. You seriously don't need that when you draw A WHOLE FUCKING THIRD OF YOUR DECK.

[Forbiddian]

Hi, I tested Ad Nauseum in Draco.dec.

Here's how the testing went:
Turn 1: Land
Turn 2: Land
Turn 3: Land
Turn 4: Land
Turn 5: Land, Ad Nauseum into Draco, Autochthon Wurm. Oops. I die.

Result: Suicide goldfish. Ugh! Ad Nauseum is so bad!

Turn 1: Land, Ritual, Spoils of the Vault for Ad Nauseum, go to 13. Ad Nauseum, flipping over Sundering Titan and stopping. Top card was Draco, thank god I stopped, but I still lose.

Uhm. Yeah, try building a deck that doesn't put you at 10 life before you even cast Ad Nauseum, and try in a deck that doesn't have 4 mana random cards like Charbelcher (you design a deck that plays Russian Roulette on every draw?). Why did you bother testing with a deck like that?

Try running one of the builds that was linked before. They're really unoptimized (no offense to the creators, the card concept has only been around for like a week), but they goldfish on turn 1 a LOT, and resolved Ad Nauseum is game. The weakness of this deck is countermagic or Thoughtseize or w/e, not goldfishing power.

And yeah, it draws more like 15-20 cards for 19 life. It should be well into the realm of 95% win ratio after resolution. If it's less, probably lower your mana curve.



Hope it gets banned, though, this is a lot stronger than Necro.

[The Rack]

What would be Wizards reason for printing this anyways? There can be arguably no good to come out of it. Are they trying to mess with the eternal formats?

[raharu]

Uhm. Yeah, try building a deck that doesn't put you at 10 life before you even cast Ad Nauseum, and try in a deck that doesn't have 4 mana random cards like Charbelcher (you design a deck that plays Russian Roulette on every draw?). Why did you bother testing with a deck like that?

Try running one of the builds that was linked before. They're really unoptimized (no offense to the creators, the card concept has only been around for like a week), but they goldfish on turn 1 a LOT, and resolved Ad Nauseum is game. The weakness of this deck is countermagic or Thoughtseize or w/e, not goldfishing power.

And yeah, it draws more like 15-20 cards for 19 life. It should be well into the realm of 95% win ratio after resolution. If it's less, probably lower your mana curve.



Hope it gets banned, though, this is a lot stronger than Necro.
15 cards + 7 in hand = 21 cards. 21 ~ 1/3 of 60. A first or second turn Ad Nauseum is pretty much 1/3 of your deck, if not more or randomly less because of 2 or 3 high cmc cards in a series of flips. I seriously doubt you even need 15+ cards though. Draw mana, hit a win condition, win. Easy.

[Dark_Cynic87]

0cc--26
4x Shield Sphere
4x PhyWalker

4x LED
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
1x Bayou
1x Taiga

4x Pact of Negation

1cc--12
4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
4x Culling of the Weak

2cc--14
4x Land Grant
2x Cabal Ritual
3x Diabolic Intent
2x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor

3cc--2
1x Cruel Bargain
1x Infernal Contract

4cc--3
1x IGG
1x ToA
1x Belcher

5cc--3
3x AdN

Maybe something like that? I think you guys are playing WAY to many win-cons. I think that between 2x Wishes (Castable via Taiga and Petals; not a huge stretch when you look at the AdN draws you can have; It's nutz.).

Wishes also give you access to some of the same stuff that TES uses against hate, not to mention it gives you access to a Draw-4s (either a black one or in rare occasions, D. Returns, not too sure on how you would cast it but whatever).

If Intent + CotW = not enough creatures, there's always Ornithopter, so no biggie.

This also includes 8 pieces of disruption, 8 Tutors, 2 draw-4s and 3 AdN, with 2 win-cons in the maindeck, and a singleton IGG, although there should be a second one so that you could do the IGG loop ftw without hitting an AdN, I'm just not sure what to drop. I haven't tested this, but it seems a much more appropriate approach to the whole concept. Notice that almost 1/2 of the deck is 0cc. That's hawt. 38 of 60 cost one or less. If it works, it is sick. If not, eh. I tried.

Pce,

--DC

[Hanni]

I've never played (non-Belcher) storm combo extensively, and therefore I'm not really qualified to improve the archtype. However, Ad Nauseam has me really excited until it gets banned, so I've decided to try it out.

I looked over (recent) lists from the FT, TES, and SI threads for a starting platform. I threw something together, goldfished it for a bit, and then tried something else. I did this a few times and then settled (for now) with the following:

B/u AdN-T

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [US] Swamp (2)

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [4E] Ad Nauseam
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [7E] Duress
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation

I'm not sure if anyone else has posted anything close to this list yet but it has been goldfishing on turn 2 pretty often with either Duress or Pact backup. Turn 3 with either Duress or Pact happens very consistently. The average cmc of the deck is very low, with only 6 cards over 2cc and only 8 cards at 2cc. The deck has a considerable amount of 1cc cards as well, and I average 10+ cards per AdN.

Thoughts on this? Again, I'm no combo expert and opinions on this would be greatly appreciated. I posted this here cause I was unsure which combo thread to post it in (though it most closely resembles FT, I guess).

EDIT: Just 2-1'd U/G Madness... I know it's not really a good deck anymore, but he ran Tarmogoyf's and was running around 16 countermagic spells postboard. I went off through aggro + FoW, Daze, Spell Snare, Circular Logic, and (wtf?) Mana Leak. Duress/Pact seem pretty good at punching through most defenses, especially when the deck can drop multiple AdN bombs (if the first one gets countered). I see U/G/b Thresh being the decks hardest matchup.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I'm not sure if anyone else has posted anything close to this list yet but it has been goldfishing on turn 2 pretty often with either Duress or Pact backup.

Ummm....




ORIGINALLY POSTED BY ME:

0cc--25
4x Shield Sphere
4x PhyWalker

4x LED
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
1x Bayou
1x Taiga

4x Pact of Negation

1cc--12
4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
4x Culling of the Weak

2cc--16
4x Land Grant
1x Cabal Ritual
3x Diabolic Intent
2x Burning Wish
4x Infernal Tutor
2x Night's Whisper

4cc--4
2x IGG
1x ToA
1x Belcher

5cc--3
3x AdN


Yes, I did just change it a bit as I remembered a decent card (read: night's whisper) that would ideally be better than the original draw-4's, but there is a list almost like the one you posted, but I feel that that many lands is just a bit worse than the 2-land versions, as now every card you hit will be closer to playable than a land.

It makes plays like Land Grant, Bayou, D. Rit, Night's Whisper with B floating to continue the chain, or leaving you the option of Duressing as well possible.

I would like to have ESGs, but 3cc is a downer for me. If I added them, I would also want to add Xx Manamorphose, and that could possibly lead to adding in RoF's/Desperate Rituals...IDK, is this going in the right direction? I think TES is doing something with it. I think they should, it would be pretty cool.

The thing I hate about TES is the reliance on Draw-4s and the Draw-7s they run. I like to KNOW what I'm getting. However, if my Draw 4/7 actually drew me 10 for only 1 more, I'd probably be okay with that...

I really would like some feedback on the list I posted if anyone is interested...

Pce,

--DC

[Hanni]

DC, I don't see how your list is even remotely close to mine. We both run Duress and Pact of Negation, sure. We both run a few typical Tendrils storm combo cards, sure. However, you're deck is still completely different.

I tried the Culling/Diabolic + 8 0cc guys and did not like it. Between that and Infernal/LED, the deck had too many 2 card combos for me. Sometimes I had a turn 1 blowout and sometimes the deck just fell apart on me. The deck has alot of power but it lacks in consistency. Not my cup of tea (not to say the deck is good/bad or better/worse).

[Dark_Cynic87]

Fair enough. Also, no offense taken, as that's how a lot of SI-esque decks are--all or none. Blow-out or Fizzle.

I may look into a mana-base of 10 rainbow lands. I'm not sure I like Fetches+Duals unless I'm running BS/Ponders at a 7 or 8 count, and then if I'm doing that, I'd much rather just play DDFT. In fact, I'm not going to stop playing DDFT, I'm just helping with brainstorming. You know, for fun.

Pce,

--DC

[Hanni]

I wasn't offended at your statement... just simply pointing out that the decks were not similar.

Ponder doesn't really require fetchlands to be effective, it's Brainstorm mostly. 8 fetchlands makes the 4 Brainstorm I'm running alot stronger. Since I'm only playing B/u currently, I don't really see myself needing rainbow lands. If at some point I splash more colors, rainbow lands would make sense.

DDFT is still a strong deck, I agree... but it doesn't seem to like AdN very much, based on the way it plays and what I've read from the thread.

My deck isn't really FT though... I mean, yea I run fetchlands and Brainstorm, but that's about as far as it goes. FT only runs 12 accelerants, which is why AdN isn't very good to them, whereas my decklist runs 20 accelerants.

Still though, I'm glad you're trying to help, and I am interested in additional feedback from everyone (in regards to my decklist). Thanks everyone.

EDIT: For my list, maybe -1 Tendrils for +1 bounce spell?

[undone]

I would like to say this again for those that didnt pay any attention the first time. LED storm combo is a TOTALY DIFFERENT DECK then Ad nauseum.dec Working in the LED+ tutors will be the biggest problem of decks running it, it ups your average CC and doesnt accel you.

Cards that are acceptable costing more then 1 mana include

Cabal ritual
Ad nauseum
Tendrils

That is all.

Unless theres a 2 drop +2 net mana or more but i dont think there is.

Also LED deserves special mention.

LED doesnt want you to have a hand, ad nauseum wants to give you one, while LED can be used this way you want to play pact+ duress(or chant) which farther decreases its usefulness.

The best way to use it is mystical tutor, Although there is one play which is rather unknown for the discard matchup in which LED (which could be board for that MU) is good,

Upkeep, sac 2 led, cast dark rit. Draw ad nauseum (mystical) Cast, win.

Decks not running blue have 0 chance to beat this deck unless the pilot is a scrub and kills himself.

I really like my type of list, and I dont know if there is any way to add 4 more copys of ad nauseum but the only time I dont win with my list is no adnauseum/mystical. I tipicaly mull as low as 5 to get to it (i know 4 on the draw isnt awful) Some times (although rare) you just dont draw adnauseum, however you have 8 tall men so you can laugh.

4 tall men
4 tall men
4 C mox
4 L pedel
4 Pact of negation

4 duress
4 dark ritual
4 Culling of the weak
4 mystical tutor
1 bounce spell (either chain of vapor, or wipe away)
4 Cabal ritual

4 Tendrils
4 Ad Nauseum

11 gold lands (COB Gemstone and Orcherd)

for referance

Also the bounce spell is COV.

Cabal ritual is iffie it does good things but sadly good things=/= 1 CmC or game winner. Ponder might be better there or maby mox diamond (11 lands but adnauseum you WILL draw lands)

Also for referance I think the SB would be
4 enlightened tutor (for discard)
4 LED(for discard)
4 Cabal therepy(for CB)
2/1 Hurkles recall/rebuild (for DS and thier MFING CHALICES! also works on 3sphear) could be 3 recall.

I would like to fit stifle in so that pact ==force or so that the combo mirror was easier stifle also fights wasteland/fetches keeping your opponent off mana.

Cards not named tendrils/adnauseum that cost more then 1 are probably bad in the deck.

[Peter_Rotten]

I would like to say this again for those that didnt pay any attention the first time. LED storm combo is a TOTALY DIFFERENT DECK then Ad nauseum.dec Working in the LED+ tutors will be the biggest problem of decks running it, it ups your average CC and doesnt accel you.

Cards that are acceptable costing more then 1 mana include

Cabal ritual
Ad nauseum
Tendrils

That is all.

I fully disagree here. I find that the LED/Infernal Tutor interaction to be invaliable for first finding AdN and then for finding Tendrils. Mystical costing a draw sucks as usual.

However, I agree that the current best protection package is Pact + Duress (or Thoughtseize).

Also, I agree that we can't just slop this card into Belcher (like I initially tried), TES, SI, or FT.

Lastly, if you're running the 0cc man plan, I think that it may be better to run Kobolds so that they can be used with ChromeMox.

[odabella]

I just came up with this BR decklist, it have good potential and seems to did a constant 2nd turn closure. It also uses Bunring Wish, wich is very good because reduces our high casting cost only on Ad Nauseam. I run Kobolds over robots because they' re pitchable on Chrome Moxes.

// Lands
4 [DIS] Blood Crypt
4 [A] Badlands

// Creatures
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds

// Spells
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [EX] Culling the Weak
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [US] Reprocess
SB: 1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy


The main closure is Grapeshot, wich is better than Tendrils in this build because it is cheaper and thanks to the slow curve we loss less life then UB versions. The protection is the same, 4 Pacts and 3 Therapyes plus the wishable one, the major loss is Brainstorm wich protect us from sweepers, but those decklist plays an huge numer of Tutors so is unfair to did a match where we don' t see any card between AdN, BW and DI...

Is there a special reason to play Blood Crypt over Fetchlands?

[Spectör]

Stifle?

[Happy Gilmore]

Those lists look terrible to me, I can't see how a list running such a one sided curve could solve the problems posed by Counterbalance with a land on top of the deck...gg? The deck won't abuse Wish nearly as well because Ad nauseum is an instant. There are a couple of directions to take this deck, I understand that, but it should also have an effective way of winning outside of Nauseum.

Here is the sample list I am testing this weekend:

3 AN
1 ETW
3 Tendrils
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Lim dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
1 Wipe Away
3 Ponder

4 Duress
3 Thoughtsieze


4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Delta
1 Mire
2 Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands


and a TES Style build as well.

The strengths I see are specifically tied to not being susceptable to GY hate (compared to FT). That and it costs 1 less to basically do the same as an iggy loop.

The life loss of AN is enough that I feel the deck will be a lot less powerful then everyone is saying. Sure in a goldfishing situation it will be amazing, but in general think it will still run into the same problems as other combo decks in additioin to having to worry about fast clocks.

[undone]

Things to note.

You have 7 mana before IT, if you have 7 mana why not cast IT for IGG repeat the loop going to 6 mana and go for tendrils. "They have force in the yard" its not hard to extirpate/deal with force.

The reason the deck is strong is because you FORCE them to have (also duress fights it) T2 BALANACE AND T1 TOP! or lose the game because you have equal disruption.

Resolved top/CB wins but guess what about 50+% of the time They will not reach turn 3 (especialy when your on the play)

The reason some people think its good but reasonable arent looking at it in context. Here are the psudo restrictions it puts on the deck.

1) You cant play more then 8 cards costing 4+(4 are ad nauseum)

2) 2 Drops should be at a minimum (not more then 8-10ish probably 4 perferred)

3) 10-12 lands 16-20 0 drops. (pact)

4) The remaining should be 1 drops.

5) I admit you lose to Chalice 1/CB 1/0 on the draw, on the play you have duress/combo kill.

Clustering the deck and making it "All in" is a good idea because the card wants you to go all in and win.

Also honestly most of the lists I see just make my gut wrench your running thoughtseize :eek: and infernal tutor!

Infernal tutor version of this (Something I REALLLLLY think is suboptimal) would go like this

4 really tall shrinking men
2 tall men
4 C mox
4 L pedel
4 Pact of negation
4 LED

4 duress
4 dark ritual
3 Culling of the weak
4 mystical tutor
1 bounce spell (either chain of vapor, or wipe away)

4 Infernal tutor

1 IGG
2 Tendrils
4 Ad Nauseum

11 gold lands (COB Gemstone and Orcherd)

This might be marginaly better/worse but I dont like it as much because you lower your T1/2 a large amount by including it. Also PACT OF NEGATION DOESNT LIKE INFERNAL! IT NOT HIS FRIEND!

[The_Red_Panda]

Those lists look terrible to me, I can't see how a list running such a one sided curve could solve the problems posed by Counterbalance with a land on top of the deck...gg?

You run 4x Duress, 4x Thoughtsieze as your disruption package instead of pact. Considering that's the case, do you really think you're going to run into too many situations where somebody is going to find and resolve CB before you either duress it out of his had, or combo all over his face? I'm pretty sure that with at least one duress effect, this deck can easily just win the game. My only real fear of permanent forms of disruption is Chalice @1 &Chalice at 0.



Infernal tutor version of this (Something I REALLLLLY think is suboptimal) would go like this

Infernal tutor is a must-run. As is LED. After a large AdN, throwing a couple of chrome/ritual ---> duress plays out and then dropping LED/Infernal is auto-win. Although the duress effects will mostly be for the storm. Honestly, if your opponent lets you resolve AdN he is clearly out of countermagic. If this bad-boy goes off, you can rest assured you've won the game. At that point pitching your hand with Infernal/LED is irrelevant, as you've already won, and as I've said, if you're not convinced your opponent isn't still holding countermagic, you can easily duress at least once after a large AdN.


I'm really not that big of a fan of the man-plan with Culling the weak, just because I feel like most of the 0-cc creatures are dead cards without Culling, or a mox to pitch to. This is even MORE true for Ornithopter/Walker, because they don't pitch to chrome. If I was going to play combo, I would surely not be doing a man-plan that wasn't Kobolds, and even then I would be 90% sure I wouldn't be doing the man-plan at all. Not enough of them build mana/do anything worth doing. Cabal Ritual > Culling The Weak.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Went in a COMPLETELY different direction with this. Tell me I'm crazy, please, someone?

Dark Tide

Land--16
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
5x Island
1x Swamp

Spells--44

Mana Accel.--16
4x High Tide
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual
3x Dream’s Grip
3x Reset

Draw--14
4x Brainstorm
4x Ideas Unbound
2x Meditate
3x Skeletal Scrying/Tainted Pact
1x Ad Nauseum

Tutors--7
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Cunning Wish

Counters--6
4x Pact of Negation
2x Remand

Kill--1:
1x Brain Freeze

0cc-20
1cc-19/22 (Dependant on Scrying/Pact choice)
2cc-12/15 (Dependant on Scrying/Pact choice)
3cc-5
4cc-00
5cc-01

SB:
1x Remand
1x AdN
1x FoW
1x Extirpate
1x Cabal Ritual
1x Reset
1x Dream's Grip (may drop 1x land for this in the MD)
8x ???

I thought that since it was an instant and relies on live rather than mana, you can use your life in place of mana, hence giving you virtual mana acceleration for your drawing capabilities. I tried really hard to keep the cc low, and it may suffer because of this, but I thought I'd at least give it a try.

Solidarity players need to give me their input. I only ever played Spring Tide. I'm not exactly the wisest in this type of a deck. I do know you would need a black source and probably 3 blue sources, so either 2x Islands and a UB land or 3 Islands and a swamp. All *constructive* input is DEFINITELY appreciated. No "that's an absurdly stupid idea" comments please. We are trying to break this card, and I think it's important to look at ALL aspects of combo. I know UB Tide lists have been attempted in the past, so it's only fair to give it a chance.

Thanks and Pce,

--DC

[The_Red_Panda]

We are trying to break this card, and I think it's important to look at ALL aspects of combo

All you gotta do to break it is look at it. We're just trying to make it as broken as we can. I.E. Optimizing.

I'm really not digging the mixed rituals and High-Tides. It seems like the two strategies are competing for which one you should focus on. Do Reset and Night's whisper really look all that great when you set them next to each other? Also your curve is at 1.15 average cc per card. While this looks pretty good, remember that you're going to take damage from just about every card you draw off AdN (or at least just about every useful one). Main decking artifact mana actually lets you draw useful cards literally for free.

I hate to seem like I'm bashing right from the start, but I think ritual-based combo is really the way to go with AdN. It supports the double-black more easily, and lends itself to explosiveness in a way high tide can't, as high tide relies heavily on it's lands.

[BreathWeapon]

I fully disagree here. I find that the LED/Infernal Tutor interaction to be invaliable for first finding AdN and then for finding Tendrils. Mystical costing a draw sucks as usual.

However, I agree that the current best protection package is Pact + Duress (or Thoughtseize).

Also, I agree that we can't just slop this card into Belcher (like I initially tried), TES, SI, or FT.

Lastly, if you're running the 0cc man plan, I think that it may be better to run Kobolds so that they can be used with ChromeMox.

Seconded, Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond is your main win condition and Ad Nauseum into Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond is either your secondary win condition or your kill condition.

Force of Will and Pact of Negation aren't worth the variance, as long as Thought Seize, Cabal Therapy and Duress or Pyro Blast and Red Elemental Blast can deal with Counterbalance and Meddling Mage there's no real advantage to using 5c cards.

Here are the current builds I'm running,

1)

1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Ad Nauseum
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

2)

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Ad Nauseum
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lim Dul's Vault/Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

I'm not sold on either, but it might give other people some direction.

[Happy Gilmore]

You run 4x Duress, 4x Thoughtsieze as your disruption package instead of pact. Considering that's the case, do you really think you're going to run into too many situations where somebody is going to find and resolve CB before you either duress it out of his had, or combo all over his face? I'm pretty sure that with at least one duress effect, this deck can easily just win the game. My only real fear of permanent forms of disruption is Chalice @1 &Chalice at 0.



The only time Pact can be used is when going off, in my book that makes the card a very very bad disruption spell. And god forbid you simply fizzle (although I doubt this will happen). The list I posted is still capable of dealing with a chalice or CB using Mystical for Wipe away. The only real problem I see with the list I posted is that there should be a couple more ritual spells. But unfortunately there are none. Testing, not speculation is going to yield the best list. I'll try everything I can. I suggest you all do the same.

[MTG Guru]

Has anyone considered 4 Mox Diamond in place of four land cards? It seems the excess land you draw off of Nauseum can be put to use with Mox Diamond, as well as upping the storm count and providing additional mana.

[Happy Gilmore]

Has anyone considered 4 Mox Diamond in place of four land cards? It seems the excess land you draw off of Nauseum can be put to use with Mox Diamond, as well as upping the storm count and providing additional mana.

They wont help you go off, that is all. Its not neccessary because its very very unlikely that you will fizzle with a resolved AN.

[Dark_Cynic87]

All you gotta do to break it is look at it. We're just trying to make it as broken as we can. I.E. Optimizing.


If this is true, then why are there so many disagreements on just how to go about using it?



I'm really not digging the mixed rituals and High-Tides. It seems like the two strategies are competing for which one you should focus on.


While at first I thought so also, they actually compliment each other quite well. It's absolutely wonderful not to have to use UUU to play Meditate.



Do Reset and Night's whisper really look all that great when you set them next to each other?


No, that's why I edited the list a couple times. The list up there isn't what I'm testing now. It's even more ludicrous now than that list was, and yet it's performing like a beast.



Also your curve is at 1.15 average cc per card. While this looks pretty good, remember that you're going to take damage from just about every card you draw off AdN (or at least just about every useful one). Main decking artifact mana actually lets you draw useful cards literally for free.


That is fine by me as I can stop when I hit 3 (ish) life. Within that span I've hit mana spells, untap spells and draw spells. From that point on it's just gravy.



I hate to seem like I'm bashing right from the start, but I think ritual-based combo is really the way to go with AdN. It supports the double-black more easily, and lends itself to explosiveness in a way high tide can't, as high tide relies heavily on it's lands.

Well, lucky for me this IS a ritual-based list. Double black is not hard to get in my list. At all. You are right that it relies heavily on lands. But so does FT, not only for mana, but for shuffle-effects.

I'm looking into something to do with Mana Severance, as after I hit 4 lands the rest just suck up draw, and while it's not painful with AdN, it's not helpful either.

/responses

As of now, and laugh if you want, but it's doing pretty damn good, here's the list I'm running:

The Crack-Pipe v. 1.2

Land--16
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
5x Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra

Mana-Ramp--10
4x High Tide
4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual

Untap--7
4x Reset
3x Dream's Grip

Protection/Utility--7
4x PoN
1x Echoing Truth
1x Remand
1x Angel's Grace

Draw--11
4x Brainstorm
4x ??? (Need a decent instant-speed draw spell as Ideas Unbound is a sorcery; my mistake)
2x Meditate
1x AdN

Tutors--8
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Cunning Wish
1x Lim-Dul's Vault

Win-Con--1
Brain Freeze

SB:
Not done, needs work. I'm on it, but not done yet.

Pce,

--DC

[m03]

Overall
This test seems to suggest that Ad Nauseum does indeed work quite well. More testing is needed, but it looks awesome

After more extensive testing with this build it seems that Ad Nauseam reads pay 19 life: draw 10-11 cards. Amazing.

That seems terrible. When playing against actual opponents, it's going to look more like: Get beat by Gofys for 2-3 turns, pay what's left of your life + 2 pieces of acceleration, draw 5-6 cards...either win now or die to Goyfs next turn.

I've goldfished a few of these lists, keeping in mind what the opponent would do if they were running Dreastill, Threshold, etc., and so far, I'm not impressed. AdN seems mildly better than a draw-4.

I'd hate to see a turn-1 Chalice @0.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Meh. Mine crapped out on me...Oh well. I suppose it was worth a shot...

[yawg07]

OMG The art is scary! I LOVE IT!

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/yawg07/CREEPY.jpg

[Wigglytuff_Rimjob]

Evan Erwin just officially spoiled this card in the Magic Show...I find it stupid that he didnt even mention its insane potential in Eternal Formats but really tried to make a round-about case how it might-be-playable-in-Standard-maybe-I-swear-you-guise...typical I guess...

[Pulp_Fiction]

I have built 2 separate decks trying to break this card and it is crazy amounts of over hyped. It is good, but it costs to much and when it resolves generally casting Infernal Bargain or Cruel Bargain would have been just as good. Point being, all of the decks which run this card win like crazy when they work or mulligan into nothingness. From what I have seen Belcher is still the premier combo deck of choice (by most people) and there really is no reason to run one of these combo decks over a deck like that. And if there is, it will take a LOT more development. The lists are either to slow or summigan into nothing.

My other lists have been posted in the SI thread.

[Hanni]

I have built 2 separate decks trying to break this card and it is crazy amounts of over hyped. It is good, but it costs to much and when it resolves generally casting Infernal Bargain or Cruel Bargain would have been just as good. Point being, all of the decks which run this card win like crazy when they work or mulligan into nothingness. From what I have seen Belcher is still the premier combo deck of choice (by most people) and there really is no reason to run one of these combo decks over a deck like that. And if there is, it will take a LOT more development. The lists are either to slow or summigan into nothing.

When you resolve Ad Nauseam, you win. You don't always win from a draw 4. Just because the decks you tested the card in were not modeled to properly use AdN, that does not mean the card is overhyped. Trying to put AdN into random existing storm combo decks is not going to work. You actually have to build the deck around the card first.

The card is broken. No other [legal] card in Legacy costs 3BB to draw 10-15 cards (on average).

[Iranon]

A resolved Draw 4 with 2 spare mana is a different matter though... I'm almost tempted to start another goldfish marathon to check exactly how often that play wins in SI, but I have some exams coming up.

[Malloot]

Fiddled around with the card for a bit on mws, and damm this card is good it will probebly get banned in no time. but for now lets have fun trying to break the card as hard as possible so wizards can do their jobs
Like many people said in the right deck its resolve and win.. no questions about that.
What i have noticed is that losing live before ad nauseam is bad since it just makes the card worse. And your already gonna lose life from this heavy tarmogoyf field. That means low on Fetchlands city's and other life losing effects
i think something along these lines will do best


// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
2 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [PS] Diabolic Intent
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
1-2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

4-6 other slots for
Tutor: Lim-Dul's Vault, Infernal Tutor
Disruption: Durress, Cabal Theraphy, Thoughtseize
Mana: Lions Eye Diamond, Cabal ritual, Mox diamond (drawing it through Ad Nauseam is rather nice since u will have exces land)

Kobolds over the artifact critters for chrome mox, and more kobolds than usual since i think we really don't need to be playing more cc cards than we need

[Dark_Cynic87]

AdN isn't even in your list...

[Jaiminho]

Kobolds over the artifact critters for chrome mox, and more kobolds than usual since i think we really don't need to be playing more cc cards than we need

More Kobolds than usual because you don't want to take damage? You could simply play more lands if that was actually a valid reason.

[rufus]

It seems like there's potential for some interesting synergy with Glimpse of Nature and Crop Rotation -> Phyrexian Tower if the deck is running the man plan. It might be pulling the deck in too many directions though.

[DeathwingZERO]

The problem I'm seeing with trying to break this card is that the decks it's going to revolve around are going to have the same problem as anything else in this format combo related: Chalice and Counterbalance.

How are any of these builds planning on fighting against Chalice @ 1 or 0, or an active CounterTop engine with a little bit of spare mana?

I think the deck really needs to look into putting up far more protection elements, and cut back on the man plan. Seeing as Culling requires creatures in play to sacrifice each time, and doesn't net much more mana than building up to a Thresh'd Ritual, why is it the choice people keep going for, rather than a dedicated TES/Belcher style acceleration-loaded deck?

I think if the deck had more structure towards Chrome/Diamond + Lands with the 12-14 ritual effects, you'd be able to pack in more disruption that could very well seal the game for you in the first few turns, allowing time to sculpt proper mana for the spell without risking a fizzle afterwards from dumping too much into just casting it.

[Iranon]

I think Culling is the correct choice.

Staying in one colour is preferrable if you aren't playing Spirit Guides (ugly when flipped over. Culling + Creatures combines reasonable mana at a low CMC)
Since Ad Nauseam wants mana and tutors, Diabolic Intent is also quite attractive.

[Malloot]

More Kobolds than usual because you don't want to take damage? You could simply play more lands if that was actually a valid reason.

since when do lands up the storm count? not to mention they help u cast intent culling and theraphy if u play them keeping the cc down even more


AdN isn't even in your list...
oops forgot to add it after deleting the mws proxy, but i think u could safely assume it is in every list in this thread :tongue:

@ active Chalice @ 1 or 0
yeah that stays a really bad situation, u could run a 1 of echoing truth or naturalise searchable trough the tutors in the deck...

an active counterbalance plus top shouldn´t be in play when u go off, otherwise the deck is fail i gues

[Dark_Cynic87]

since when do lands up the storm count? not to mention they help u cast intent culling and theraphy if u play them keeping the cc down even more


I'm pretty sure his point was not that they up the storm count, but rather to save one from taking damage just to get more cards drawn.



i think u could safely assume it is in every list in this thread :tongue:


To assume is to make an ass out of you and me.

My buddy had a pretty cool idea. I'm going to throw it out there. It lets you win via AdN with taking only 3 damage.

Take a look:

=================================================
Scouting Trek
Sorcery-1G
Invasion Common

Search your library for any number of basic land cards, reveal them, and set them aside. Shuffle your library, then put those cards on top of it in any order.
==================================================

Do that, and then either have a lightning storm in your hand or tutor for it or something.

Discard all your lands to it and burn the crap out of them. I know it says basic lands, but hey, whatever, you know? This was also a thought of ours with Countryside Crusher, although does Countryside Crusher keep repeating it until it doesn't reveal a land, or does it do it just one more time? Anyway, get a crusher and a terravore in play and it's teh nutz.

Just another way of looking at it.

[matamagos]

there are some kobold decks that run chalice of the void and set it at 0.
they run also multani's presence, so they can draw a lot and achieve storm.

I don't like multani's presence in the main deck, but maybe it's ok in the side if our opponent plays it at zero. it will be interesting to see his face when he understands that we profit of his cards to combo.


oh, and I would always play glimpse of nature. I consider ad nauseam only a second way to win, since glimpse is very easy to counter with counterbalance or chalice.

[Willoe]

Not for hijacking the thread, because Ad Nauseam is a pretty good card overall.

Not after having resolved Ad Nauseam this is a problem, but before:

Haven't you got even bigger problems with Counterbalance? Your avg. cmc is under 1 which means that you play a lot of 0cc, a lot of 1cc and some 2cc cards, which will most likely be hit by Counterbalance.

Has anyone played some serious games against Counterbalance Threshold?