[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[practical joke]

Don't board xantids vs Canadian *****.

They don't have much of a clock to take you down, you just have to fight their counters and finish the job. It's tight game, and discard work better than them having use of their fire/ice.

You could trick out Dark ***** and Team america by playing xantids, sometimes it works since they board out removal, but it's a psychological war. How good are you on reading your opponent, will he be the kind of player that blindly boards out removal or not? the answer to this, is the answer to your boarding. just look carefully as your opponent is boarding. Tricked my opponent once with this and he ended up stifling my xantid 3 turns in a row before he died.

I'm not sure if I board against combo at all. If you play a duress ftw, and they chant, you take out 2 cards at once.
If they don't, check their mana, if they are not capable of going white, take iggy chain, if they can....ad nauseam.
I've won mulitple mirrors vs TES, because I kept any hand with a few discard, TES takes harder hits from discard than ANT does. We play more cantrips and can find/protect our business better. TES has the issue of not being able to sculpt their hands the way ANT can. This is an advantage that you really want to abuse. If not, win on T1 works as well.

Besides that, combo-mirrors are a dieroll anyways. You can hope you don't die on T1, and after that if you make a single mistake with duress targets, you lose as well.

[leegoo]

Here's the list I'm going to be playing in D.C.

Artifacts
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam

Sorcerys
2 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Basic Land
2 Island
2 Swamp

Land
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard
4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Shell-Dock Isle
2 Wipe Away
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Tendrils of Agony

The iffy spots to me are the Chrome Mox in the main and the Tendrils in the board. I'm not 100% sure the Chrome Mox wouldn't be better off as a mox diamond. My reasoning in that is that neither mox is all that great amazing in the deck, but there have been games I could have won a turn earlier without land gumming up my hand and preventing hellbent. Very few times are there spells I want to imprint pre AdN. Post AdN they are basically on the same power level, with Diamond being just a bit better. It may be right for it to just be another land as well.

The tendrils in the board seems out of place too. I'm not sure what matchup it would come in against. On the same note I'm not sure what it should be instead. Maybe it should just be another chain of vapor, or possibly infest/disfigure

Thoughts?

[practical joke]

-1 swamp +1 chrome mox:

here's the reasoning. It happens enough times that you have to go off through ad nauseam without any mana float, nor a landdrop.
Here's where Chrome mox shines, it can also quicken up mana instead of a land drop. It's not the most fun to use it pre-ad nauseam, but it's absolutely great after an ad nauseam, also combo's well with chain of vapor and adds 1 storm from itself imprinted or not. I choose -1 swamp, because there's not a single reason why you need double black. (grim tutor can also be cast from fetching a underground sea, since the turn after that you'll combo out probably using a single swamp or swamp + island for cabal ritual or another ton of rituals) besides that there are plenty of options with chrome mox and lotus petal.

About the sideboard, there's way to many bounce in there..6 of em, you only need 3, a fourth is fine since rebuild and hurky's are specific targets, the rest is overkill saves you 2-3 spots + another spot for the tendrills.. They can be used for a whole additional sideboard tactic.
Like confidants, xantids, doomsday + meditate package or whatever you prefer.

[AriLax]

-1 swamp +1 chrome mox:

here's the reasoning. It happens enough times that you have to go off through ad nauseam without any mana float, nor a landdrop.
Here's where Chrome mox shines, it can also quicken up mana instead of a land drop. It's not the most fun to use it pre-ad nauseam, but it's absolutely great after an ad nauseam, also combo's well with chain of vapor and adds 1 storm from itself imprinted or not. I choose -1 swamp, because there's not a single reason why you need double black. (grim tutor can also be cast from fetching a underground sea, since the turn after that you'll combo out probably using a single swamp or swamp + island for cabal ritual or another ton of rituals) besides that there are plenty of options with chrome mox and lotus petal.

About the sideboard, there's way to many bounce in there..6 of em, you only need 3, a fourth is fine since rebuild and hurky's are specific targets, the rest is overkill saves you 2-3 spots + another spot for the tendrills.. They can be used for a whole additional sideboard tactic.
Like confidants, xantids, doomsday + meditate package or whatever you prefer.

I would leave the Chrome Mox count as is. In the Grim Tutor lists you are much less likely to Ad Naus than the 2 Ad Naus no Grim lists, and Chrome Mox is pretty bad with the other kills as you want cards in hand.

[leegoo]

-1 swamp +1 chrome mox:

Interesting, while my gut agree's with Ari about this, I'll put it at 2 tonight and see what happens.

I'll also try the diamond (although only as a 1 of... don't think the deck could support 2), as it's got to be stronger than Chrome post Ad Nauseam.

I do feel better about having at least 5 0cc artifacts I can hit that produce mana when having to AdN with 0 floating.



About the sideboard, there's way to many bounce in there..6 of em, you only need 3, a fourth is fine since rebuild and hurky's are specific targets, the rest is overkill saves you 2-3 spots + another spot for the tendrills.. They can be used for a whole additional sideboard tactic.
Like confidants, xantids, doomsday + meditate package or whatever you prefer.

On the bounce, I agree it looks like a lot, however I wouldn't consider either recall or rebuild an actual "bounce" spot. It's (in my use anyways) simply a(nother) way past sphere's/chalice. In the inevitable situation that I get paired against affinity / forgemaster, it just seems like a bonus blowout. (Although affinity going -tree, glimpse, crap out some free dudes would be pretty epic fail)

Chain is just good, but we're all on the same page with that I think.

Wipe away is against the less focused counterbalance decks and sometimes game3's when brining in the Emrakul / DD package isn't as strong (when they are running wasteland/karakas/etc). It still gives you a solid way past their "lock."

Still you may be right and it's too many.

[leegoo]

update on some of that testing.

- Mox Diamond is just not getting there. It's fine after an AdN, but worse than "meh" (which I consider Chrome Mox) the rest of the time.

- 2 Chrome Mox's is also too many Imo. Too many hands with it, too many times seeing it when it did absolutely nothing. The turn you are going off it can be useful (and can sometimes help accelerate you into a t1 "all in") but it was almost never a card I was happy to see unless it was flipped with Nauseam.

I think 1 is the right number (in the Grim Tutor list at least) as really it's only benefit is that it acts as lotus petal #5. The acceleration it offers in itself is generally not enough to advance your plan, and the imprint is very counteractive if you have a hand with cabal ritual.

On to the Boarding. (again, vs Countertop thopter, which I think is the "best" version of the deck vs. ANT)

Sideboard Strategy:
- 1 Ad Nauseam
- 1 Lion's Eye Diamond
- 4 Preordain
- 2 Infernal Tutor
- 1 Misty Rainforest

+ 1 Shell-dock Isle
+ 1 Emrakul
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 4 Doomsday
+ 1 Wipe Away

Card for card the most unimpressive was the wipe away. It simply costs too much for this game plan. It was certainly fine, even strong, if the game went long, but after boarding it is not good to be in the late game. I'm still not sold that it doesn't have it's place in the board, as when I did bounce CB it was almost always a game winning move. Anyways /aside.

Thoughtseize was also only fair. If they board Leyline vs. you it can quickly make a hand that looks like it's going to wreck them into "why did I keep this." If they don't get leyline on 0, it's obviously good :)

The doomsday package seemed almost unfair. We went 14 - 8 games in ANT's favor with this setup. In all fairness, I assume my DD stacks are still not as strong as they could be, trying to work on that. One thing I did realize is many times you need to put another island/sea in the stack, especially if you DD on turn 1 off a swamp, as I looked pretty silly that game with shell-dock isle hiding emrakul, but no way to put him into play. (doh)

I'm also still on the fence about leaving in Tendrils and IGG. On the one hand, there was a game (Karakas was involved) that I simply couldn't win with DD / Emrakul, but snuck out with DD for (Bstorm, LED, LED, IGG, Tendrils) still, it was two games (from my notes) and of the two only worked once (He lived at 1 life after forcing a copy of the Tendrils the other game)

The questions I am at now...
1.) is it worth keeping the package in for Game 3 (if it goes to g3 of course) or move back to something more traditional. (probably involving the wipe aways)

2.) In the other CB matchups is the combo as strong? For that matter, besides countertop, are there any matchups the DD package would come in?

3.) Did I board out the right stuff?
AdN seems like a given out, as does preordain, and LED/IT just seem a lot weaker when you are trying to DD on t1/t2.

Again, just thoughts and still open to all feedback.

[ThomasDowd]

When I board in the 6 card package I take out 4 IT for 4 DD, and the rest really depends on the contents of your main and board (mine is different). but after thinking about it I may be doing that wrong, my logic was always replacing a tutor for a mass tutor instead of fumbling around with trying to assemble IT + LED or IT plus enough spells/mana to get there. but with the way you are doing it it seems like if they don't assemble CB/Top you can just get them via G1 kill, but I find that highly unlikely especially against thopters with their access to E tutor. I would probably expect them to have the pieces almost all the time.

Again, I may be doing it wrong, but that's just how I think about it, I Imagine trying to DD T1-3 is key here as well or otherwise a good CB player will have you locked regardless.

[emidln]

Removing IT is definitely wrong. You want to be able to get to IT->DD or DD asap. Knowing that opening Duress, IT, LED is a usually win is a pretty good feeling.

Karakas on board can be usually be answered by stacking Wipe Away and using it then activating Shelldock EOT to get two turns. The only thing you could really do about Karakas played after you activate Shelldock Isle would be to run a Pithing Needle in the sideboard.

[leegoo]

Removing IT is definitely wrong. You want to be able to get to IT->DD or DD asap. Knowing that opening Duress, IT, LED is a usually win is a pretty good feeling.

Karakas on board can be usually be answered by stacking Wipe Away and using it then activating Shelldock EOT to get two turns. The only thing you could really do about Karakas played after you activate Shelldock Isle would be to run a Pithing Needle in the sideboard.

I'm not sure siding out IT is wrong. The deck is still 4 tutors strong (as many as quite a few builds of ANT run anyways) two of which become much stronger (grim) with this plan. IT into Doomsday is not a fast plan without a stacked hand. You need a LED or a hand full of rituals (and very few blue spells) to make it work before turn 3, at which point, you might has well be back on the tendrils plan. (As opposed to needing a DD/Ritual)

What would you suggest cutting instead of IT? There's little left in the deck that is even questionable. You want a full # of duress' all your petals/rituals/mox, definitely want grim tutors and 8 brainstorm effects. I'm not seeing what else can be cut.

On answering Karakas. If you DD on 1-2 (which is the plan) wipe away is a bit unrealistic. You would need to be able to have 5 mana (3 of that blue, plus shell dock) at UU1 to EOT wipe away, activate isle, kill. Not saying it's impossible, but very very unlikely.

[emidln]

I'm not sure siding out IT is wrong.

You really have no idea what's going on here. We want to Doomsday by turn 2, even with 0 cards left in hand and pass twice. There is little to nothing (Karakas and Needle are basically it) that a CB deck will play to interact with you in the slightest. Your speed of winning isn't as important as going off before they've cantriped into a bunch of situational permission that will be difficult, if not possible to overcome. If you Doomsday by turn 2, they can't even present a reasonable clock to kill you. If you try to Tendrils them on turn 3-4 you have to deal with situational counters, their filtering, counterbalance, and still any clock they can must.

The cards you want to cut are:

Ad Nauseam
Chrome Mox
Ill-Gotten Gains
Preordain

[leegoo]

You really have no idea what's going on here.

easy killer, being an internet bad@$$ doesn't make you any friends.
We want to Doomsday by turn 2, even with 0 cards left in hand and pass twice. you completely missed my point... I wasn't arguing that you cared about the cards in your hand, only that getting hellbent is more difficult after boarding.
There is little to nothing (Karakas and Needle are basically it) that a CB deck will play to interact with you in the slightest. Your speed of winning isn't as important as going off before they've cantriped into a bunch of situational permission that will be difficult, if not possible to overcome. If you Doomsday by turn 2, they can't even present a reasonable clock to kill you. If you try to Tendrils them on turn 3-4 you have to deal with situational counters, their filtering, counterbalance, and still any clock they can must. I'm not sure where we're disagreeing there.



The cards you want to cut are:

Ad Nauseam
Chrome Mox
Ill-Gotten Gains
Preordain

I'm not sure I'd agree with cutting the mox. Reasons for that? Why would you suggest cutting the IGG but leaving in the Tendrils... it seems unlikely to tutor chain for the win. Just to put it under doomsday and try to win in one turn (like Practical suggested)

[Admiral_Arzar]

easy killer, being an internet bad@$$ doesn't make you any friends. you completely missed my point... I wasn't arguing that you cared about the cards in your hand, only that getting hellbent is more difficult after boarding. I'm not sure where we're disagreeing there.


I'm not sure I'd agree with cutting the mox. Reasons for that? Why would you suggest cutting the IGG but leaving in the Tendrils... it seems unlikely to tutor chain for the win. Just to put it under doomsday and try to win in one turn (like Practical suggested)

You want every bit of business that allows you to go for a fast Doomsday, as a fast Doomsday is generally your only good shot at winning assuming they don't draw like a$$. Also, Chrome Mox is generally awful except when you need initial mana sources post Ad Nauseum. Finally, you leave in the tendrils so that you still have access to a Tendrils pile if the situation comes up (who knows, your opponent might draw nothing relevant) or so you can just stack Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils after SI/Emrakul and win in one hit.

[leegoo]

You want every bit of business that allows you to go for a fast Doomsday, as a fast Doomsday is generally your only good shot at winning assuming they don't draw like a$$. Also, Chrome Mox is generally awful except when you need initial mana sources post Ad Nauseum. Finally, you leave in the tendrils so that you still have access to a Tendrils pile if the situation comes up (who knows, your opponent might draw nothing relevant) or so you can just stack Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils after SI/Emrakul and win in one hit.

I can agree with that on the mox. My only reasoning is that it's just one more way to accelerate into t1/t2 doomsday. (compared to the fetchland I board out instead.)

On the IT, I'm not arguing you want business, just that I'm pretty sure we're talking about two different lists. If I were only running 4 tutors I would indeed leave all four in. Running the 6 I'm still at the same number of tutors most builds run (at least the 0 grims 2 AdN's versions) however, I am not against them staying in, just questioning what should be cut instead.

at Emidln's suggestion, the cards to cut are

Ad Nauseam (1)
Chrome Mox (1)
Ill-Gotten Gains (1)
Preordain (4)

which is not enough for the 9 cards I'm currently bringing in. Admittably, one of those is iffy, but axing just two more cards is a hard cut.

[amonchakai]

and vs counterbalance with this sb:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away

how do you sb?
another question:
in wich pairing do you go inside Confidants?

tnx

[menace13]

The meta online is Cbalance variants(mostly 4color) and Storm(more ANT than TES) with aggro and Dredge in the middle placings. What would be the version suited for that meta? Would DD hybrids be best(no one is playing DD yet)?

[Admiral_Arzar]

The meta online is Cbalance variants(mostly 4color) and Storm(more ANT than TES) with aggro and Dredge in the middle placings. What would be the version suited for that meta? Would DD hybrids be best(no one is playing DD yet)?

Emidln can correct me if this is wrong, but in my experience DD variants are stronger against CBalance and weaker against Merfolk and tempo decks. TES/ANT tend to be weaker against CBalance while having stronger matchups against Merfolk/tempo. So it really depends on what you think you'll see a lot of. All of them are strong against aggro and dredge.

[menace13]

Emidln can correct me if this is wrong, but in my experience DD variants are stronger against CBalance and weaker against Merfolk and tempo decks. TES/ANT tend to be weaker against CBalance while having stronger matchups against Merfolk/tempo. So it really depends on what you think you'll see a lot of. All of them are strong against aggro and dredge.

Not much Merfolk or Tempo played currently. 50+ events for 2011, 60 Cbalance variants and 40 Storm decks are the top 2 in placings.Everything else is in the 20s.

And, Pfff, Emidln, that guy doesnt even check his messages.

[practical joke]

Not much Merfolk or Tempo played currently. 50+ events for 2011, 60 Cbalance variants and 40 Storm decks are the top 2 in placings.Everything else is in the 20s.

And, Pfff, Emidln, that guy doesnt even check his messages.

A friend of mine is taking non-grim tutor lists into the dailies and so far has never lost to the Gerry T' supreme blue lists.

It's a beatable match-up, die-roll for G1 is important since the deck has no clock to kill you with, just a soft-lock (which is annoying anyways)

Most are trigger happy to put SDT on top when you cast a duress or something. The deck plays no spell pierce mainboard, just snares (dunno if it even plays pierces sideboard)

EDIT: he's not playing doomsday in SB but krosan grip, but when you resolve doomsday, it's insta-win anyways.

[Rune]

I can agree with that on the mox. My only reasoning is that it's just one more way to accelerate into t1/t2 doomsday. (compared to the fetchland I board out instead.)

On the IT, I'm not arguing you want business, just that I'm pretty sure we're talking about two different lists. If I were only running 4 tutors I would indeed leave all four in. Running the 6 I'm still at the same number of tutors most builds run (at least the 0 grims 2 AdN's versions) however, I am not against them staying in, just questioning what should be cut instead.

at Emidln's suggestion, the cards to cut are

Ad Nauseam (1)
Chrome Mox (1)
Ill-Gotten Gains (1)
Preordain (4)

which is not enough for the 9 cards I'm currently bringing in. Admittably, one of those is iffy, but axing just two more cards is a hard cut.

In addition to that, I would cut basic the Island, if you play one. You aren't really interested in making more land drops than 2 (+SI), and most of the time Island a really bad land to have in your opener when you want to force through the DD plan as quickly as possible. I would also take out the Tendrils. In my eyes, it's just a false sense of security because I have found that winning with Tendrils against a CB player after you have boarded in the DDs is very, very unlikely to happen in practice. This might be because I send send back any hand that isn't capable of fast Duress/TS + DD, though, and so winning with Tendrils automatically gets less likely to happen.

[leegoo]

In addition to that, I would cut basic the Island, if you play one. You aren't really interested in making more land drops than 2 (+SI), and most of the time Island a really bad land to have in your opener when you want to force through the DD plan as quickly as possible. I would also take out the Tendrils. In my eyes, it's just a false sense of security because I have found that winning with Tendrils against a CB player after you have boarded in the DDs is very, very unlikely to happen in practice. This might be because I send send back any hand that isn't capable of fast Duress/TS + DD, though, and so winning with Tendrils automatically gets less likely to happen.

island out. Interesting, I like it.

I'm somewhat with you on the Tendrils as well, it seems very clunky other than to get the win in 1 turn. (which about everyone on here has agreed is moot after resolving DD)

New board plan vs. CB
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 IGG
-1 Tendrils
-4 Preordain
-1 Island

+4 Doomsday
+1 Shell Dock Isle
+1 Emrakul
+2 Thoughtseize

that also keeps all the tutors in.

[Admiral_Arzar]

A friend of mine is taking non-grim tutor lists into the dailies and so far has never lost to the Gerry T' supreme blue lists.

It's a beatable match-up, die-roll for G1 is important since the deck has no clock to kill you with, just a soft-lock (which is annoying anyways)

Most are trigger happy to put SDT on top when you cast a duress or something. The deck plays no spell pierce mainboard, just snares (dunno if it even plays pierces sideboard)

EDIT: he's not playing doomsday in SB but krosan grip, but when you resolve doomsday, it's insta-win anyways.

I'm glad y'all get to play against bad CB players (I don't unfortunately). Be aware that hoping they get trigger happy with top isn't going to get you there if they have any idea what they're doing. This applies especially if they're playing the Bant list with a clock, or the thopters list, which has a million silver bullets that screw us over.



New board plan vs. CB
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 IGG
-1 Tendrils
-4 Preordain
-1 Island

+4 Doomsday
+1 Shell Dock Isle
+1 Emrakul
+2 Thoughtseize

that also keeps all the tutors in.

I would also board out a Mox for Wipe Away. There are all sorts of shenanigans that can surprise you postboard, depending on the list. Karakas is the most obvious, but I've also been screwed over by things like Ensnaring Bridge and Oblivion Ring (damn you thopters).

[leegoo]

I like it. -1 mox +1 wipe away.

I'll also throw out my "i'm wrong" bit. Emidln you were indeed correct, 4 is the right number of IT post board.

[MattiasNL]

A friend of mine is taking non-grim tutor lists into the dailies and so far has never lost to the Gerry T' supreme blue lists.
This is me, and my record against Gerry T CB lists with ANT is currently 4-2 in my favour. Oddly enough my record against landstill is worse. I don't run doomsday, as I don't like wasting 6 sideboard slots on 1 matchup. I just play 2-3 split second remove cb cards (grip/wipe away) in the board.

You steal games against this deck because:
They have CB top but no FoW and you go for it turn 1/2
They have CB but no top and you sometimes win through it
They get screwed over by their godawful basic mountain (no turn 2 cb, happened several times)
They have CB top + fow but no clock and you just grip it and win

The thopter lists are tougher but see less play. They can consistently assemble CB top due to their tutors, but their clock is horrendous and they have issues with blue count for FoW (often letting you kill two forces with one duress as they are his only blue cards). My record against them is 2-2.

I'm not saying these are anywhere close to good matchups, and I have definetely gotten lucky to beat them on several occasions, but it's quite possible.

On another note, i've been doing some video reports on my legacy dailes, I just posted the first one in the tournament reports here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20133-MTGO-Legacy-Daily-1-%28ANT%29)

Hope you guys have some feedback for me! :cool:
(yes I realize I don't play vs CB there, I will try to record one where I do :wink:)

[practical joke]

Good to see you around here finally :)

[ramanujan]

Congrats Ari,

You have shown 2 things. Your version of the deck, complete with grim tutors, is completely legit as you have played it to high finishes on several occasions. The doomsday sb plan is effective as a foil to one of our bad matchups.

[amonchakai]

and how do u sb doomsday plan?

[leegoo]

Yes well done Ari, got to watch you in rnd 2 against CBthopter against one of the guys I rode down with. What a beating.

I got crushed by Bant top round 1 (blind top swap into Force of will after duress on turn 2... sigh) and in round 3 vs. Goblins after bricking on a land drop 4 turns in a row... died with lethal in hand every turn after 2 and never casting a black spell... after preordaining and pondering and seeing nothing.

Great pick on Trickbind. 1 cheaper than wipe away and solved the same problems after DD.

[lorddotm]

Yes well done Ari, got to watch you in rnd 2 against CBthopter against one of the guys I rode down with. What a beating.

I got crushed by Bant top round 1 (blind top swap into Force of will after duress on turn 2... sigh) and in round 3 vs. Goblins after bricking on a land drop 4 turns in a row... died with lethal in hand every turn after 2 and never casting a black spell... after preordaining and pondering and seeing nothing.

Great pick on Trickbind. 1 cheaper than wipe away and solved the same problems after DD.

It doesn't solve Needle, but it does solve Karakas and Wasteland. Not too worried about Wasteland out of CBTop and Karakas is easily avoidable and bounceable with Wipe Away. Plus Wipe Away costs 3 making it harder to blind flip.

[amonchakai]

and how do u sb doomsday plan?

maybe :
+ 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
+ 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+ 4 [6E] Doomsday
-1 ad nauseam
-1 tendrils
-3 petal
-1 island/swamp

[leegoo]

maybe :
+ 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
+ 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+ 4 [6E] Doomsday
-1 ad nauseam
-1 tendrils
-3 petal
-1 island/swamp

you don't want to take out the petals.
At DC I boarded (vs. Bant Top)
-1 Tendrils
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 IGG
-1 Chrome Mox (mox is getting cut from my main however, so this will change)
-4 Preordain
-1 Island

+4 Doomsday
+1 Emrakul
+1 Shell-Dock
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Wipe Away

[emidln]

maybe :
+ 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
+ 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+ 4 [6E] Doomsday
-1 ad nauseam
-1 tendrils
-3 petal
-1 island/swamp

No. Do not cut Lotus Petal when your plan is to cast the card on turn 1-2. t1 land, duress, into t2 land, petal, dd is extremely common.

[amonchakai]

ok then cut preordains....tnx to learn a new becomer :D

[practical joke]

Congrats on your finish Ari,
I'll read up on SCG later for details about matches and stuff.

[amonchakai]

hi again people:
i love ari's list but i havent Grim Tutor$$ any replacement card?or good idea for it?
maybe 2 chrome mox/chain of vapors/ad nauseam?
Rhystic Tuto (http://http://magiccards.info/pr/en/77.html)r?
tnx

[AriLax]

Article should be going up on SCG. Gist of the DD plan:

-4 Infernal
-2 LED
-3 AN/IGG/Tendrils
-2 Preordain
-1 Island

+4 DD
+1 Shelldock
+1 Emrakul
+3 Chain
+2 Seize
+1 Trickbind

If I knew they had no Karakas/Waste, I would leave in a Preordain over Trickbind. Didn't want IGG to begin with, Ad Naus is out with DDs. Makes Infernal LED much worse as you only have the straight Tendrils plan usually for that way and Infernal is awk to get DD as you have to be all in. So Infernal goes, LED is bad with DD so it goes (ok to combo with Grims -> DD so a couple stay) and Tendrils just gets bad then.

Needle/Peacekeeper are usually non-issues with Chains boarded in, they have to get CB-Top-Needle up before you Emrakul them or have double counter as you can represent double Chain very easily. Trickbind could be Wipe, but I figured that it was easier to get 2 lands + Shell vs Waste and 3 + Shelldock vs Karakas than 3+ Shell vs Waste and 4+ Shell vs Karakas. Plus I figured both were fairly marginal value anyways and Trickbind was cooler.

Currently just want to work on BUG match up, as 2 of my 3 losses at these were to it (other one was CB Top I would have smashed with DD plan in Indy). Issue is the deck needs ways to gain actual CA as you have to make a lot of trades. 2nd Ad Naus is a start, Bob would be good, possibly Arena.

[Bahamuth]

Congrats on your result Ari. I don't think boarding out IT and LED when you're on the Doomsday plan is optimal. Both cards actually enable you to get a Doomsday out quickly, and the plan only works on the first couple of turns. If you want to play that Trickbind, I'd do:

-2 Island
-2 Grim Tutor
-1 Ad Nauseam
-1 IGG
-1 ToA
-4 Preordain
-1 LED

I don't think having cantrips is any good in a match where you need to be quick to race the opposing creatures and CB. I'm not buying Grim Tutor is good enough to keep. It's possible to run the ToA anyway for random wins through IT chains, which is not that unlikely to happen anyway.

I noticed something in the coverage you said: "I've considered Xantid Swarm, but I haven't sat down and tested whether it's good against Merfolk. If they Force it, you just lose your Trop to Wasteland, so you're way behind.”

Swarm is a massive bomb against Merfolk. In the situation you describe, if he doesn't happen to have the FoW, there's no way you're every going to lose that game anymore. If he has the FoW and he does Waste your land, I really don't see how you're that far behind. You usually only need a win through a Daze at that point.

I don't think there's much profit in boarding the Doomsdays in when you're not planning on using it for the Emrakul. You need to run a Meditate or Idea's Unbound for the most profitable piles. The other options are Brainstorm piles, which usually win through IGG. They're decent, but usually require more cards in hand, making LED preDD worthless.

[leegoo]

I'm not buying Grim Tutor is good enough to keep. It's possible to run the ToA anyway for random wins through IT chains, which is not that unlikely to happen anyway.



How do you cut grim tutor over infernal tutor? Especially if you cut an LED. For one more mana (and 3 life, which is much less relevant when you are on DD plan) you get the card (can't imagine it being anything but DD) without requiring Hellbent.

On the flip side, I didn't board out IT either (and I do think keeping them in is worth it..) when I sided DD in... but I also scrubbed out so ;)

[Bahamuth]

How do you cut grim tutor over infernal tutor? Especially if you cut an LED. For one more mana (and 3 life, which is much less relevant when you are on DD plan) you get the card (can't imagine it being anything but DD) without requiring Hellbent.

On the flip side, I didn't board out IT either (and I do think keeping them in is worth it..) when I sided DD in... but I also scrubbed out so ;)

If you board out cantrips and land, this deck is not going to have a hard time making hellbend anyway. The only card you then run that might clog up your hand is Doomsday, in which case you don't need to Infernal anyway. The 3 life turn into 6 life because of Doomsday, which is quite a lot.

[leegoo]

If you board out cantrips and land, this deck is not going to have a hard time making hellbend anyway. The only card you then run that might clog up your hand is Doomsday, in which case you don't need to Infernal anyway. The 3 life turn into 6 life because of Doomsday, which is quite a lot.

I see what you are saying, but the 6 life in the matchup you bring DD in against (countertop) is still pretty much moot. Even the Bant versions can't deal 6 or 8 damage to you ( -1 from fetch, possibly -2 from Seize, -3 tutor, -8 doomsday) before Emrakul kills them (considering we are trying to make the DD combo happen t1/t2 before counterbalance hits)

Again, I'm not against leaving the tutor in, just not sure that cutting a less situational tutor to leave it in is optimal.

[AriLax]

If you board out cantrips and land, this deck is not going to have a hard time making hellbend anyway. The only card you then run that might clog up your hand is Doomsday, in which case you don't need to Infernal anyway. The 3 life turn into 6 life because of Doomsday, which is quite a lot.

You have it backwards. 3 life turns into 1 or 2 life because of DD.

20-3 = 17
20/2 = 10
floor(17/2) = 8

19-3 = 16
floor(19/2) = 9
16/2=8.

I really don't like going all in on the Doomsday post board as I have flexibility in my stacks if I get to hold a second DD or Chain or more mana sources, so LED Infernal is out.

[leegoo]

I think one of the important questions now is... in Memphis, how many CB decks will adapt and be ready for Emrakul.

It may be (is) necessary to find a cheap DD stack that kills with tendrils. Anybody got anything better than the Brainstorm>LED>LED>IGG>Tendrils?
That one requires UU, two cards and a brainstorm in hand (could also be done with preordain/ponder if you wait a turn) and only deals 18... I think. That's about the best (for the current list) I could find on Emidln's list (Cheeseburgers I suppose)

[Admiral_Arzar]

I think one of the important questions now is... in Memphis, how many CB decks will adapt and be ready for Emrakul.

It may be (is) necessary to find a cheap DD stack that kills with tendrils. Anybody got anything better than the Brainstorm>LED>LED>IGG>Tendrils?
That one requires UU, two cards and a brainstorm in hand (could also be done with preordain/ponder if you wait a turn) and only deals 18... I think. That's about the best (for the current list) I could find on Emidln's list (Cheeseburgers I suppose)

You probably won't find much better than that unless you want to start packing a Meditate or Ideas Unbound in the board. Or running SDT, which vastly improves your Doomsday options.

[leegoo]

I've been trying out 1 Top (in place of my chrome mox in my list a page or so back)

It's been pretty underwhelming on the whole. It seems like with so many shuffle effects it should be very strong, but it suffers from Lim Dul's Vault Syndrome (doesn't actually net you a card - without swapping it at least... which is fine the turn you are killing them, but fairly bad the rest of the time) Still, I agree it does make some piles look much better.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I've been trying out 1 Top (in place of my chrome mox in my list a page or so back)

It's been pretty underwhelming on the whole. It seems like with so many shuffle effects it should be very strong, but it suffers from Lim Dul's Vault Syndrome (doesn't actually net you a card - without swapping it at least... which is fine the turn you are killing them, but fairly bad the rest of the time) Still, I agree it does make some piles look much better.

It makes the one you listed lethal I believe, and also makes the pass-the-turn BS/IGG pile lethal.

[emidln]

You have it backwards. 3 life turns into 1 or 2 life because of DD.

20-3 = 17
20/2 = 10
floor(17/2) = 8

19-3 = 16
floor(19/2) = 9
16/2=8.

I really don't like going all in on the Doomsday post board as I have flexibility in my stacks if I get to hold a second DD or Chain or more mana sources, so LED Infernal is out.

You don't have to be all-in on Emrakul to play 4 IT, 4 DD. You just have to learn to play with Tendrils piles. Someone has written a lot about doing just that, but I forgot his name...

IMO, the boarding plan I'd run with your 75 against CB would be:

+4 Doomsday
+1 Emrakul
+1 Shelldock Isle
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Chain of Vapor

-4 Preordain
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Island

You only need 1 Chain of Vapor to put it in a Doomsday pile as a storm engine or to bounce something.

The trickbind would have been a lot more useful as a Wipe Away, which is something that can actually answer hate cards and does something in your most common Emrakul piles.

Outside of that, I'd have liked to see a Meditate in your sideboard and 1 SDT in your maindeck to enable some nifty piles for those games when you want to have more threats (the Doomsdays) but don't necessarily want to Emrakul (you end up looking something like TK's list from the past summer postboard in this instance) so that you can ADN, DD, or IT. Most people who rely purely on permanently-based hate cannot beat Doomsday for Chain of Vapor + Tendrils kill. As an aside, anytime you need to win fast, t1 Doomsdays with the SDT allow you to do pretty insane stuff with these six for just 2 mana (obv one has to be in hand with the rest stacked and you need another turn + an extra card):

Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony

SDT also plays well as a 1-of with Chain of Vapor letting you stack both to build storm and draw extra turn the doomsday.

[AriLax]

You don't have to be all-in on Emrakul to play 4 IT, 4 DD. You just have to learn to play with Tendrils piles. Someone has written a lot about doing just that, but I forgot his name...

IMO, the boarding plan I'd run with your 75 against CB would be:

+4 Doomsday
+1 Emrakul
+1 Shelldock Isle
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Chain of Vapor

-4 Preordain
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Island

You only need 1 Chain of Vapor to put it in a Doomsday pile as a storm engine or to bounce something.

The trickbind would have been a lot more useful as a Wipe Away, which is something that can actually answer hate cards and does something in your most common Emrakul piles.

Outside of that, I'd have liked to see a Meditate in your sideboard and 1 SDT in your maindeck to enable some nifty piles for those games when you want to have more threats (the Doomsdays) but don't necessarily want to Emrakul (you end up looking something like TK's list from the past summer postboard in this instance) so that you can ADN, DD, or IT. Most people who rely purely on permanently-based hate cannot beat Doomsday for Chain of Vapor + Tendrils kill. As an aside, anytime you need to win fast, t1 Doomsdays with the SDT allow you to do pretty insane stuff with these six for just 2 mana (obv one has to be in hand with the rest stacked and you need another turn + an extra card):

Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Ill-Gotten Gains
Tendrils of Agony

SDT also plays well as a 1-of with Chain of Vapor letting you stack both to build storm and draw extra turn the doomsday.

Lets rephrase that: I'm fine with being all in on DD-Emrakul post board as a plan. I'm not fine with having to pull on in on casting a single DD off an Infernal Tutor. I've won a lot of post board games by playing a DD two turns in a row.

The summary of why I don't like Doomsday main is this: In goldfishing, all of the time I would kill with DD I could have killed with a Tutor, and not every time that I could have killed with a Tutor could I have won on the spot with DD. Top is also miserable with Cabal Ritual, which is actually unreal when Thresholded and is awkward with your early game sequencing. The upside is a main deck Chain of Vapor, which might be important if Zenith Zoo starts wanting to MD Teeg you. I may have been missing some good mass the turn piles, but I'm pretty sure I understand most of the on the spot kills.

Also, I think that stack works with a second Brainstorm instead of the Top.

UU to start with.

Storm into Storm, LED LED (1, U, Library is X, X , IGG, Tendrils)
LED, LED, Storm, crack in response for UUUBBB, keep IGG (4, UUUBBB, library is X, X Tendrils)
IGG for LED, LED, Storm (5, UU)
LED, LED, Storm, Crack in response, Tendrils for 18.

Needs one more spell, where as the Top adds that, but it's pretty close.

[leegoo]

Out of curiosity, how many of you guys are "all in" on turn 1. What I mean is, if you can go for the win on the first turn, do you?

Say your hand is -swamp, dark ritual, lotus petal, cabal ritual, ad nauseam, ponder, fetchland.
(what about these scenario's)
It's game 1 turn 1 on the play -
It's game 2 turn 1 vs. a deck with force of will -
You are on the draw and your opponent plays tundra < SDT -
What if the ponder (or the fetchland) is a duress/thoughtseize?

just curious.

[AriLax]

Out of curiosity, how many of you guys are "all in" on turn 1. What I mean is, if you can go for the win on the first turn, do you?

Say your hand is -swamp, dark ritual, lotus petal, cabal ritual, ad nauseam, ponder, fetchland.
(what about these scenario's)
It's game 1 turn 1 on the play -
It's game 2 turn 1 vs. a deck with force of will -
You are on the draw and your opponent plays tundra < SDT -
What if the ponder (or the fetchland) is a duress/thoughtseize?

just curious.

I would rather go off on two rather than ad Naus with 0 floating on one on the play in anything but the mirror. On the draw I would hold against anything but the turn 1 Top start. If the Ponder is a Duress/Seize I would wait against almost anything I think and T1 the Duress.

[practical joke]

I would rather go off on two rather than ad Naus with 0 floating on one on the play in anything but the mirror. On the draw I would hold against anything but the turn 1 Top start. If the Ponder is a Duress/Seize I would wait against almost anything I think and T1 the Duress.

I agree, better safe than sorry.

[leegoo]

I would rather go off on two rather than ad Naus with 0 floating on one on the play in anything but the mirror. On the draw I would hold against anything but the turn 1 Top start. If the Ponder is a Duress/Seize I would wait against almost anything I think and T1 the Duress.

so the waiting is more a clause of not wanting to AdN with 0 floating than of worry about disruption?

I only ask because I waited in DC versus Countertop rnd 1, (albeit on the play) with the same hand (scalding tarn<Island<ponder on 1) and got smashed by his brainstorm < FoW. (or at least he said it was off the bstorm... no way to be sure) which is obviously one out of a million scenarios... but it got me thinking as to whether it's worth just "making them have FoW" and (basically) just losing right then if they do.

[practical joke]

so the waiting is more a clause of not wanting to AdN with 0 floating than of worry about disruption?

I only ask because I waited in DC versus Countertop rnd 1, (albeit on the play) with the same hand (scalding tarn<Island<ponder on 1) and got smashed by his brainstorm < FoW. (or at least he said it was off the bstorm... no way to be sure) which is obviously one out of a million scenarios... but it got me thinking as to whether it's worth just "making them have FoW" and (basically) just losing right then if they do.

If you know he plays counterbalance on round one, you could go for the 40% chance and hope you can combo-out succesfully, since you only have a very limited ammount of start-mana left (3 petals 0-1 chrome mox) that's not a funny math you're facing. (assuming you play ari's list.)

This time he found it with brainstorm, can happen, you could've died to an active force as well, or you could've won.

a damn lot of chance, but 40% + the chance you find a dark ritual + start mana or cabal +2 petals is also not that great. Add it together and I know for sure you go above the 50% chance to lose. aka not worth the coinflip.

[AriLax]

so the waiting is more a clause of not wanting to AdN with 0 floating than of worry about disruption?

I only ask because I waited in DC versus Countertop rnd 1, (albeit on the play) with the same hand (scalding tarn<Island<ponder on 1) and got smashed by his brainstorm < FoW. (or at least he said it was off the bstorm... no way to be sure) which is obviously one out of a million scenarios... but it got me thinking as to whether it's worth just "making them have FoW" and (basically) just losing right then if they do.

Like, if the 2nd land was another Dark Rit, it would depend on if I had the read or not.

Also, ignore what I said about 0 floating. Forgot its turn 1 so you can just set up and ship to kill on 2 if you know they have no way to deal damage.

[Rune]

@leegoo

If you suspect that they play CB and you just want to go all in, the best option is to play Petal, say go. Then play Ad Nauseam in their upkeep.

I think the best option in general is to play Petal + land and pass the turn and see what happens. If you play Ponder instead of holding up mana for AdN, you can get really screwed if your opponent opens with Thoughtseize, Chalice@1, etc. Your hand is so fast that you don't lose much by not playing the Ponder turn1.

[leegoo]

Everybody's suggestions sound good.
@ Kikoo - I admit I'm quite guilty of forgetting that Ad Nauseam is an instant.

[leegoo]

@ Practical Joke - Look at you being in the spotlight.

Nice article Ari.

After reading it, how do you feel about possibly putting a SDT into the board? It seems like boarding the DD's in, but (probably) not the Emrakul/Shell dock combo would give you more action vs. BUG. I'm not a fan of top either main, but it undeniably makes your DD piles more attractive (and more lethal)

This also makes DD a little bit "better" as a sideboard choice "overall." Since it becomes a bit more effective in more than one matchup.

[practical joke]

@ Practical Joke - Look at you being in the spotlight.

Nice article Ari.

After reading it, how do you feel about possibly putting a SDT into the board? It seems like boarding the DD's in, but (probably) not the Emrakul/Shell dock combo would give you more action vs. BUG. I'm not a fan of top either main, but it undeniably makes your DD piles more attractive (and more lethal)

This also makes DD a little bit "better" as a sideboard choice "overall." Since it becomes a bit more effective in more than one matchup.

thanks,

shame I can't read the article -.-


@ leegoo: I don't think 2x SDT + meditate will increase any match-up with anything we have available already.
You can iggy/chain tutors ftw against aggro, so doomsday has no gains here and we got a doomsday plan vs counterbalance that work.

I'd rather use those 3 sideboard slots for decks that have been bothering us now, like the dark tempo treshhold list (which is a nuisance really)
I did like the trickbind though, haven't actually thought about it and covers up the whole random answer thing like karakas.


@ ari: thanks for mentioning me in the article, glad the doomsday plan worked out great.

tried xantid swarms yet?

[leegoo]

@ leegoo: I don't think 2x SDT + meditate will increase any match-up with anything we have available already.
You can iggy/chain tutors ftw against aggro, so doomsday has no gains here and we got a doomsday plan vs counterbalance that work.


there are a couple of dd piles that work with just a singular sdt. That's all I was suggesting, not 2x + meditate.

As the BUG deck (dark threshold, team america, whatever) runs a ton of bad cards for ANT... I can see a possible 1-of of show & tell in the board too...

dd < bs, show & tell, emrakul, ----, dd) seems like a way around their stifles and wastelands.

[AriLax]

@ ari: thanks for mentioning me in the article, glad the doomsday plan worked out great.

tried xantid swarms yet?

Haven't tried Swarms yet. That's in the queue for the time between now and the GP, which is a while.

leegoo: The SB Show and Tell actually seems interesting. I'll have to try it out.

[lorddotm]

Haven't tried Swarms yet. That's in the queue for the time between now and the GP, which is a while.

leegoo: The SB Show and Tell actually seems interesting. I'll have to try it out.

I actually had a sideboard plan that I sent to practical joke. Feel free to try it.

4 Doomsday
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Trickbind
1 Wipe Away

[ThomasDowd]

there are a couple of dd piles that work with just a singular sdt. That's all I was suggesting, not 2x + meditate.

As the BUG deck (dark threshold, team america, whatever) runs a ton of bad cards for ANT... I can see a possible 1-of of show & tell in the board too...

dd < bs, show & tell, emrakul, ----, dd) seems like a way around their stifles and wastelands.

not taking an extra turn can be kind of rough here due to them also typically run edict effects. consuming Vapors and or diabolic edict, which can definitely still get you if you are not careful, but like o ring or karakas, not always guaranteed, so probably still good. still interesting though. also getting to 3 mana through stifle and wasteland is kind of rough I would imagine. plus the discard disruption they run, quite an uphill battle in this loadout.

I feel like in the tempo matchups, stifle+discard and cheap clocks is pretty miserable to fight through

[ThomasDowd]

I actually had a sideboard plan that I sent to practical joke. Feel free to try it.

4 Doomsday
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Trickbind
1 Wipe Away

go on.........

[leegoo]

not taking an extra turn can be kind of rough here due to them also typically run edict effects. consuming Vapors and or diabolic edict, which can definitely still get you if you are not careful, but like o ring or karakas, not always guaranteed, so probably still good. still interesting though. also getting to 3 mana through stifle and wasteland is kind of rough I would imagine. plus the discard disruption they run, quite an uphill battle in this loadout.

I feel like in the tempo matchups, stifle+discard and cheap clocks is pretty miserable to fight through

edict effects definitely still wreck you. Although by stacking another doomsday in there, it's not an auto lose.

Getting 3 mana is rough, although wasteland is certainly fairly easy to play around. The bad thing is we would need to work out a couple of different show&tell piles... 1 for when you had multiple rituals in hand (easy to play the first doomsday and show/tell. Then the xxx card could be another ritual for the second doomsday.) and others for when you didn't have multiple ritual effects.

It's still not a "great" plan vs. BUG I admit, but honestly, if you told me "sit down, build a deck that beats ANT." I think my main 60 wouldn't be far off that list. Solid clock, tons of different ways to disrupt... yeah, that deck is having counterbalance + top away from being 75 card misery.

edit: while It looks painfully too slow to be effective... Signorini's build is certainly greedy when it comes to the manabase. Back to Basics would be a strong board card vs. them.

[practical joke]

if you expect edict effects (which are played in decks you RARELY want to board in doomsday for anyways) you should include a duress in your pile.

[emidln]

A lot of tempo goyf decks will lose pretty quickly to resolved Carpet of Flowers.

[leegoo]

How about Cloud of Faeries or Snap in the board. Would be nice to untap ShellDock off a DD.

Still looks fairly meh, but another thing to think about.

[TheSleeper]

What do people think about Mark Tocco's 5th placing @ SCG Edison (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37048). Can anyone confirm his MD is 62 cards or am I missing something?

Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Instants
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Crystal Vein
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Reverent Silence
1 Tropical Island

[AriLax]

What do people think about Mark Tocco's 5th placing @ SCG Edison (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37048). Can anyone confirm his MD is 62 cards or am I missing something?

Artifacts
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Instants
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Crystal Vein
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Reverent Silence
1 Tropical Island

I count 60. 15 Lands, 2 Mox, 16 Rit, 12 Cantrip, 7 Discard, 4 Tutor, 2 Ad Naus, 1 IGG, 1 Tendrils.

I personally hate Mox, but your mileage may vary. Crystal Vein is kinda cool, but pretty mediocre for anything but casting an Ad Naus, which I guess he wants to do pretty bad. The board looks pretty standard for having no DD package.

[leegoo]

looks pretty standard for a 2 Ad Nauseam / no Grim list.

I only get 60 cards in the MD...

Board I'm currently trying out. It's still not 100% but I feel like it's getting close.

1 Rebuild
1 Show and Tell
1 Wipe Away
1 Shell Dock Isle
1 Emrakul
4 Doomsday
1 Sensei Divining Top
1 Meditate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chain of Vapor

It's pretty neat being able to board into a (albeit not the greatest) DD Tendrils deck. I'm not sold on it yet, but it's got some potential... it's a fun feeling when you DD and blow your opponent out casting Meditate instead of Emrakul.

[TheSleeper]

Yeah I dunno why but I kept counting 4 Underground Sea.. my bad.

[egosum]

ANT won a 106 people tournament in Italy. (http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22765)

[Arsenal]

AnT has been placing quite well recently. I dare say better than TES even? Is this as a result of some meta shift or simply not enough people choosing to sleeve up TES (which is a more complicated Storm deck to be fair)?

[leegoo]

This seems to be the list (I think? Anybody Verify)

2 Underground Sea
2 Bloodstainde Mire
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Brainstorm
2 Lim-dul's Vault
4 lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Tendrils of agony
2 Chrome Mox
3 Sensei's Divvinign Top
4 Inferal Tutor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nausea,m
4 Ponder
4 Duress

Sideboard
1 Hurkyll's Recall
4 Doomsday
1 meditate
1 Rebuild
2 Chain fo Vapor
1 Slaughter pact
1 Shelldock Isle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Emrakul, the Aeons of Torn

Very odd... Lim Dul's Vault didn't do so great for me as it doesn't "DO" anything the turn you cast it... same with SDT. I'm also not a big fan of Slaughter Pact in the board. Although I do like the Meditate he's running, especially with the tops main.

@ Arsenal. I certainly wouldn't say TES is more complicated. It's learning curve starts steeper than U/B ANT i'd agree... but after a couple of hundred games and probably twice as many goldfishes... I'd say ANT is one of the more complex decks ever *to pilot strongly*
Against something like fish, where keeping up with what color mana you are floating is a bit more relevant, I'd say you are probably right though.

[AriLax]

AnT has been placing quite well recently. I dare say better than TES even? Is this as a result of some meta shift or simply not enough people choosing to sleeve up TES (which is a more complicated Storm deck to be fair)?

The deck is just significantly more powerful and consistent than TES. I can go in depth into all the reasons why, but the TL,DR version is cantrips are better at finding more copies of what you need than just playing more and having a 2 color mana base means you don't randomly die to Waste or when they Daze your first Ritual cutting you off of colors.

In terms of complexity, most of the complexity in TEPS is basically trying to play around your handicaps. There's really no reason to have to be figuring out colors floating around a Daze to play Chant and Rite when you could just be playing Cabal and Thoughtseize. Sure, figuring out Ad Naus and Dim Returns every time is hard, but if you were playing a good configuration you would have the clear no questions asked IGG or tutor chain kill. The only real strategic addition is figuring out if Empty is enough.

[k2thej]

The deck is just significantly more powerful and consistent than TES. I can go in depth into all the reasons why, but the TL,DR version is cantrips are better at finding more copies of what you need than just playing more and having a 2 color mana base means you don't randomly die to Waste or when they Daze your first Ritual cutting you off of colors.

In terms of complexity, most of the complexity in TEPS is basically trying to play around your handicaps. There's really no reason to have to be figuring out colors floating around a Daze to play Chant and Rite when you could just be playing Cabal and Thoughtseize. Sure, figuring out Ad Naus and Dim Returns every time is hard, but if you were playing a good configuration you would have the clear no questions asked IGG or tutor chain kill. The only real strategic addition is figuring out if Empty is enough.

I think ANT is def better than TES right now. I think ANT should be in DTB and TES should be in established, especially with the success of the doomsday SB package.

[Lejay]

Very odd... Lim Dul's Vault didn't do so great for me as it doesn't "DO" anything the turn you cast it... same with SDT.
Putting them together do something the turn you cast LDV. :)

[egosum]

TES is by far harder to master than ANT. Do not take this as an offense, it's not my intention, This is because ANT lines of play are very few and quite linear, while TES, maybe because it is 5-colored, but specially for the flexibility BW grants has more difuse lines of play, and this is what makes it more complicated to pilot. ANT is having more success for its simplicity, and althoguh being one of the weakest among its Storm brothers (this is my personal opinion, I will state the reasons later), it is an storm deck, very unfair, and better than most of the regular Legacy builds. This is why ANT has all this success. Also stealing the doomsday sideboard trick to beat counterbalance, from its brother (Doomsday decks) has made it stronger, but still is not as good as other storm decks because:

-Problems finding its bombs. If you go to the ADN route you may have problems w/o MT to fetch it, Personal tutor into Infernal, and Lim dul s are just poor substitutes.
-You are too life dependat, I know there is the IGG plan, but then it needs more set up and not facing a FoW deck.
-If playing UB build you may feel the lack of "chants", if you play the UBw build you may have mana issues, just like some otehr storm decks (Doomsday, or TES).

Nevertheless, as I said, storm is strong in Legacy, maybe the strongest engine and this makes ANT a very good deck (a very big advantage ANT has over other storm decks is that it allows you to stay fresh for the whole tournament, this is specially important if the tournament is 7 or more rounds, and you are going to the top).

Now about the list, yes it seems quite unorthodox and a little too slow (I tested LDV and SDT and they seem not to fit in this deck, maybe it's only me). But maybe he wanted to do a proper switch to DD-Storm/Emrakul after the sideboard, and therefore he need the Tops (Meditates shows this aswell).About the Slaughter Pact, I'm afraid that is for DD piles (sames as the maindeck Chain of Vapor), neverhteless Slaughter PAct is an strong sideboard card in ANT.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[leegoo]

Pact < CoV. Never found Pact better in many games. I'm not even sure if it's better than deathmark for that matter.

[Dark Ritual]

He plays SDT in board because he practically transforms into DDFT post board. Notice the meditate and set of DD's in there. LDV is also better in DDFT because you can go off from any life total except for 1 or less, making it vampiric tutor essentially for 2 mana. Interesting list though.

[lorddotm]

go on.........

The basic idea is to go (My list is the same as whatever his name is who Eli faced playing ANT at Edison)

-2 Ad Nauseam
-1 Tendrils of Agony
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-4 Infernal Tutor
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-2 Cabal Ritual
-1 Preordain (If they have Wasteland/Karakas/things Trickbind is good against)

+15 Sideboard.

The basic idea is that it just dodges all the hate, and most decks just can't beat it once they bring in their anti-Storm package. Also, it crushes CounterTop since it just give you more threats. The taking out of Cabal Ritual is because I still think it is the worst accel with this board, however you don't want to take them all out since they are still good with Doomsday.

This has NOT been thoroughly tested, and was more of just an idea I have been meaning to test.

@ ANT v TES:

If you think ANT is as hard to play as TES you are kidding yourself. TES, in my opinion is the most powerful and robust of the storm decks, I think that DDFT is the most flexible, and I think that ANT is the most linear. Also, if you think that running 6-7 (depending on if you run Grim Tutor or not) business and 12 cantrip is better than 10 business and 8 cantrips, you are kind of stupid (no offense), cantrips do not always hit. I just took this deck (ANT) to a Top 4 finish (granted it was out of only 23, but that is kind of average for LA), and I feel like I would have won if it wasn't for the fact that I could find business in one of my rounds in the swiss and one of my games in the Top 4. Also, because of that fact, you are forced to keep some really awkward hands because they have an Infernal Tutor or an Ad Nauseam. In my opinion the biggest reason to run ANT is Cabal Ritual, those things are insane in this deck, 9/10 they are a 2 mana Black Lotus. Personally the whole get to run basics thing has never really bothered me, TES only need 1, sometimes two lands to go off, and it can easily Ad Nauseam with no mana floating, which is something that ANT can RARELY do (usually less than two is kind of dangerous, but 1 is good enough a fair amount of the time), which makes needing more than 5 mana not really an issue. Plus it runs Chrome Moxen so those count for something.

[AriLax]

TES is by far harder to master than ANT. Do not take this as an offense, it's not my intention, This is because ANT lines of play are very few and quite linear, while TES, maybe because it is 5-colored, but specially for the flexibility BW grants has more difuse lines of play, and this is what makes it more complicated to pilot. ANT is having more success for its simplicity, and althoguh being one of the weakest among its Storm brothers (this is my personal opinion, I will state the reasons later), it is an storm deck, very unfair, and better than most of the regular Legacy builds. This is why ANT has all this success. Also stealing the doomsday sideboard trick to beat counterbalance, from its brother (Doomsday decks) has made it stronger, but still is not as good as other storm decks because:

-Problems finding its bombs. If you go to the ADN route you may have problems w/o MT to fetch it, Personal tutor into Infernal, and Lim dul s are just poor substitutes.
-You are too life dependat, I know there is the IGG plan, but then it needs more set up and not facing a FoW deck.
-If playing UB build you may feel the lack of "chants", if you play the UBw build you may have mana issues, just like some otehr storm decks (Doomsday, or TES).

Nevertheless, as I said, storm is strong in Legacy, maybe the strongest engine and this makes ANT a very good deck (a very big advantage ANT has over other storm decks is that it allows you to stay fresh for the whole tournament, this is specially important if the tournament is 7 or more rounds, and you are going to the top).

Now about the list, yes it seems quite unorthodox and a little too slow (I tested LDV and SDT and they seem not to fit in this deck, maybe it's only me). But maybe he wanted to do a proper switch to DD-Storm/Emrakul after the sideboard, and therefore he need the Tops (Meditates shows this aswell).About the Slaughter Pact, I'm afraid that is for DD piles (sames as the maindeck Chain of Vapor), neverhteless Slaughter PAct is an strong sideboard card in ANT.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-


You are confusing the current builds of UB storm with a deck that depends on Ad Naus to kill, as compared to what it currently is, where Ad Naus is a matchup specific tool used to fight attrition wars and matchups where you just have to go for it as fast as possible (ie. CB-Top game ones and the mirror) as well as an enabler for the best draws to win on turn 1-2. Very specifically the swap from Mystical and Top to cantrips has enabled Cabal Ritual to be +3 mana by turn three, allowing for not only easier kills at that point through soft disruption like Daze but allowing the deck to move away from needing Ad Naus or IGG and just Tutor chaining to a kill at the cost of waiting slightly over a turn on average, which is very reasonable against decks where Force of Will is an issue for IGG. The added mana also allows for IGG kills that involve a Duress, which beats a single Force easily.

In terms of end games, UB Storm has 3-4 lines (IGG, Tutor Chains, Ad Naus, post board Chain of Vapor). TES has 5 (Empty, Ad Naus, IGG, Dim Returns). The only real gains are being able to just jam an Empty when necessary and Dim Ret providing a couple more live draws when at low life and low hand size, though just having more cantrips usually means you can power through discard before those decks kill you.

As for Chants, that versus more discard is it's own argument. Chant/Xantid is awesome in a world of tempo decks where you need to stop Snare + Stifle. Thoughtseize is where its at in a world of permanent based hate like Canonist, Teeg, Chalice, etc.

[Malakai]

I play a pretty hateful Merfolk list. 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 2 Pierce, 2 Snare, 3 Standstill, 4 Cursecatcher; the board has the 3rd Pierce and 2 Vendillion Clique.

TES is a bye. I have lost one game in about a dozen matches, and even that I would've won had I ripped a 2 drop merfolk instead of a Reejery. The key thing here is that when storm beats Merfolk, it generally does it the turn before the merfolk player is going to kill them. UB tendrils doesn't get hit by Wasteland; TES always gets hit by Wasteland. That's a turn right there. Let's not even discuss how awful Orim's Chant is compared to Duress. It's like a Duress that only works if you Duress'd them the turn before.

UB tendrils, however, is a close matchup, and variance definitely favors storm's good hands over Merfolk's. Personally I don't see how TES is in any way real; none of its matchups are better than UB, and some of them are definitely worse. It seems like the only thing it has going for it is the ability to randomly steal a game from CounterTop with an early EtW.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Let's not even discuss how awful Orim's Chant is compared to Duress. It's like a Duress that only works if you Duress'd them the turn before.

UB tendrils, however, is a close matchup, and variance definitely favors storm's good hands over Merfolk's. Personally I don't see how TES is in any way real; none of its matchups are better than UB, and some of them are definitely worse. It seems like the only thing it has going for it is the ability to randomly steal a game from CounterTop with an early EtW.

How can you possibly think Chant is horrible? Chant is ALWAYS a must-counter. If Chant ever resolves, you win. Think of it like this, if you duress a hand with 2 counterspells, you take one, and then have to wait. If you Chant a hand with 2 counterspells, you still get rid of at least one, and you can get lucky by making them force+pitch a counter.

TES is a real deck because it has more business spells than UB Storm and doesn't have to wait until turn 3 for its rituals to stop being terrible.

[lorddotm]

You are confusing the current builds of UB storm with a deck that depends on Ad Naus to kill, as compared to what it currently is, where Ad Naus is a matchup specific tool used to fight attrition wars and matchups where you just have to go for it as fast as possible (ie. CB-Top game ones and the mirror) as well as an enabler for the best draws to win on turn 1-2. Very specifically the swap from Mystical and Top to cantrips has enabled Cabal Ritual to be +3 mana by turn three, allowing for not only easier kills at that point through soft disruption like Daze but allowing the deck to move away from needing Ad Naus or IGG and just Tutor chaining to a kill at the cost of waiting slightly over a turn on average, which is very reasonable against decks where Force of Will is an issue for IGG. The added mana also allows for IGG kills that involve a Duress, which beats a single Force easily.

In terms of end games, UB Storm has 3-4 lines (IGG, Tutor Chains, Ad Naus, post board Chain of Vapor). TES has 5 (Empty, Ad Naus, IGG, Dim Returns). The only real gains are being able to just jam an Empty when necessary and Dim Ret providing a couple more live draws when at low life and low hand size, though just having more cantrips usually means you can power through discard before those decks kill you.

As for Chants, that versus more discard is it's own argument. Chant/Xantid is awesome in a world of tempo decks where you need to stop Snare + Stifle. Thoughtseize is where its at in a world of permanent based hate like Canonist, Teeg, Chalice, etc.

I think you underestimate the power of being able to just go 12 Goblins, have fun dealing with this. Also, I use Chant on upkeep very often to prevent permanent hate. I also think you underestimate the life loss of Seize.

EDIT: Xantid beats Merfolk pretty hard. Also, TES can easily Ad Nauseam at like 12 life and still win a healthy amount of the time with no mana floating, or very little mana floating ince it has so man 0's

[Arsenal]

Chant is pretty boss, especially if you're going the IGG route versus a deck packing FoW. Resolved Chant = GGPO.

EDIT: Yes, Duress in an IGG loop can also get there, but there is additional setup required that you don't run into when you can simply resolve Chant.

[practical joke]

I think you underestimate the power of being able to just go 12 Goblins, have fun dealing with this. Also, I use Chant on upkeep very often to prevent permanent hate. I also think you underestimate the life loss of Seize.

EDIT: Xantid beats Merfolk pretty hard. Also, TES can easily Ad Nauseam at like 12 life and still win a healthy amount of the time with no mana floating, or very little mana floating ince it has so man 0's

I agree with you in terms of juts popping out 10-12 goblisn on T1 or T2, against most decks that goes all the way.

Vs the fancy merfolk list with way to many counters: ever faced a xantid swarm? you'll face defeat when it sticks and you only have 1 spell taht stops it: force.

Tes has a better ad nauseam than ANT does, simply because they find business faster and with a lot less ammount life lost. Also they're not depending on LED because of burning wish.
ANT is more meta- gamed right now because the 2 most played cards in the format are Force of Will and Wasteland. Wasteland can totally take down TES because of the fancy ammount of colors, ANt can combo out in a single color where TES high likely needs at least 2 (maybe even 3 because they possibly are stuck with chants instead of discard)

Chants are totally awesome, and I'm not yet decided which sideboard slot I'll be using against merfolk and tempodecks:
- xantid swarm
- carpet of flowers
- orim's chant (yup, gotta board some lands for those, manabase hardly changed)
- anything new I haven't discovered yet.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Chants are totally awesome, and I'm not yet decided which sideboard slot I'll be using against merfolk and tempodecks:
- xantid swarm
- carpet of flowers
- orim's chant (yup, gotta board some lands for those, manabase hardly changed)
- anything new I haven't discovered yet.

Depends what tempo decks you are facing and whether you wanna beat the tempo or merfolk decks more.

Xantid Swarm > Merfolk. Hard. However it's a bit soft to the tempo decks.
Carpet can easily win v most tempo decks but v merfolk it can be a bit weak as they can play around it with vial/fast clock
Chant is pretty much the middle ground. Still weak to force but if you play around the tax effects its the tits.

[rnightingale]

Hi,

i need help regarding Doomsday.. can anyone give me pointers on how to make a proper pile and combo on these two (2):

1. Doomsday -> Tendrils

2. Doomsday -> Emrakul.

Thanks everyone.

[mishima_kazuya]

Everyone plays Wasteland. You still want to play close to no basics in your 15 land combo deck.

Good game.

[ThomasDowd]

Hi,

i need help regarding Doomsday.. can anyone give me pointers on how to make a proper pile and combo on these two (2):

1. Doomsday -> Tendrils

2. Doomsday -> Emrakul.

Thanks everyone.



if you read some of the rest of the thread it's there i'd say start around 20 pages back or so, there are also other resources including, emidln's signature where he has a spread of various doomsday piles depending on the deck you are playing and that use it, or you can sit down and figure the puzzle out yourself, which is probably a lot better for you long term since making doomsday stacks on the fly is probably a good skill to have, in case you run into random hate you need to fight through.

[lorddotm]

I agree with you in terms of juts popping out 10-12 goblisn on T1 or T2, against most decks that goes all the way.

Vs the fancy merfolk list with way to many counters: ever faced a xantid swarm? you'll face defeat when it sticks and you only have 1 spell taht stops it: force.

Tes has a better ad nauseam than ANT does, simply because they find business faster and with a lot less ammount life lost. Also they're not depending on LED because of burning wish.
ANT is more meta- gamed right now because the 2 most played cards in the format are Force of Will and Wasteland. Wasteland can totally take down TES because of the fancy ammount of colors, ANt can combo out in a single color where TES high likely needs at least 2 (maybe even 3 because they possibly are stuck with chants instead of discard)

Chants are totally awesome, and I'm not yet decided which sideboard slot I'll be using against merfolk and tempodecks:
- xantid swarm
- carpet of flowers
- orim's chant (yup, gotta board some lands for those, manabase hardly changed)
- anything new I haven't discovered yet.

I recommend Orim's Chant, since it is pretty good against Dredge as well. It is also just really good against all the Tempo decks instead of only TA and Merfolk.

[Rune]

TES is for kids!! (http://ggslive.blip.tv/file/4865681/)

Just had to randomly post that 'cause it's too funny

[Dia_Bot]

TES is for kids!! (http://ggslive.blip.tv/file/4865681/)

Just had to randomly post that 'cause it's too funny

Haha funny, and jet quite impressive! (although I would have sacced the LED in response to the Adn)

[practical joke]

I recommend Orim's Chant, since it is pretty good against Dredge as well. It is also just really good against all the Tempo decks instead of only TA and Merfolk.

you shouldn't lose to dredge. period.

My meta is weak on merfolk but a bit more heavy on the treshhold decks in comparison, so I'm not affraid for the merfolk decks anyways since those are a fine match.

Then again need to try which one is more effective since spell snare is nearly a hardcounter and ill-gotten gains without a silence effect isn't very good.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yep.

[lorddotm]

I realize that Dredge is a bye, but why not throw in more shit against it if it splashes?

Also, Chant is very good against Spell Snare...

[Malakai]

It is generally advisable to _use_ facts instead of argue them.

The last three major Legacy events put a total of four UB tendrils decks, and zero TES decks, into the top16.

[lorddotm]

It is generally advisable to _use_ facts instead of argue them.

The last three major Legacy events put a total of four UB tendrils decks, and zero TES decks, into the top16.

TES top 8'd a Grand Prix.

Ari is a good player, he probably would've Top 8'd with TES too. Also, I think more people (that can actually play storm) play ANT over TES since they feel it's better positioned.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think that ANT is a good deck, and sometimes it's a better choice than TES, I just think that TES is more powerful and more flexible.

[practical joke]

TES top 8'd a Grand Prix.

Ari is a good player, he probably would've Top 8'd with TES too. Also, I think more people (that can actually play storm) play ANT over TES since they feel it's better positioned.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think that ANT is a good deck, and sometimes it's a better choice than TES, I just think that TES is more powerful and more flexible.

Ari Lax placed 11th at the same GP with ANT

but that doesn't matter, GP was a long time ago and both Bryant and Ari proved combo is far from dead after bannings, both decks have become harder to play without mystical tutor. So less and less ppl pick the deck up because it's not that easy as they thought (not seeing certain combinations or how to cantrip succesfully). So less and less ppl use ANT + TES then after the GP in Madrid.

and actually I'm tired of talking about the differences between TES and ANT, which one is better and why, because it's no use to keep talking about it since you have to figure that shit out for yourself.

I'm here to talk about possible sideboard/mainboard ideas about ANT, new ways of approaching a difficult match-up or new sideboard techs, I'm willing to help ppl that have questions about ANT (might it be how to play or how to use cantrips/sideboard properly)

[Diprivan]

and actually I'm tired of talking about the differences between TES and ANT, which one is better and why, because it's no use to keep talking about it since you have to figure that shit out for yourself.

I'm here to talk about possible sideboard/mainboard ideas about ANT, new ways of approaching a difficult match-up or new sideboard techs, I'm willing to help ppl that have questions about ANT (might it be how to play or how to use cantrips/sideboard properly)

Thanks for posting this. I couldn't agree more. Just saying "my deck is better than yours" doesn't accomplish anything. We should discuss SB plans, opening hands, play sequences etc.
Though I'm a TES player. I recognise the strenghts of ANT and sometimes sleeve it up to test. Both decks have their merits.

Besides, instead of calling each others deck shit, we should respect each other: we both joined the dark side :rolleyes:

[Irenicus]

Normally I am more of a lurker. I read a lot in the internet but don't write about my thoughts that often. I have been playing combo for quite a while and last Saturday I played in a 123 person tournament and placed 6th. After starting 0-1 in the swiss I won six rounds in row and then lost my quarterfinal. I don't want to write a detailed report but instead write about my experiences with ANT and its issues in general.

I played the following list, which isn't that different from the one Ari uses:

Maindeck (60):

1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard (15):

1 Shelldock Isle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Trickbind
2 Echoing Truth
2 Rebuilt
4 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam

Tournament matchups:

1) 0-2 Dredge
2) 2-0 Merfolk
3) 2-1 CB
4) 2-0 Zoo
5) 2-1 CB
6) 2-0 BW-D&T with both Crusaders from MBS
7) 2-0 Zoo
Quarterfinal: 0-2 Merfolk (with Stifle and Dreadnought, Mulligan to 5 first game, 2nd game slow hand vs. 2nd turn Dreadnought)

“My” decklist

As I said it's quite standard. I like playing without Chrome Mox and with the 7th discard-effect. I had one open slot in the maindeck and filled it with Chain of Vapor because I was a little bit afraid of Zoo-lists with Teeg main. In addition I played a 3rd U.Sea over the 10th fetchland. Both of these changes aren't necessary and in my next tournament I'll most likely play the manabase Ari is playing and switch the maindeck Chain for a Grim Tutor because sometimes finding an Infernal Tutor is a little bit too hard for my taste.

The Echoing Truths in the SB weren't needed at all and I will play “just” 4 Chain of Vapor in the future.

Main winning option

I won 12 games last Saturday, 1 with Ad Nauseam, 2 with Doomsday, 1 with Ill-Gotten Gains and 8 by chaining spells and killing directly with Tendrils. I really like the playstyle a lot. But in my opinion this playstyle has two problems:
1) You are more likely to keep slow hands without any of Dark Ritual, LED or Infernal Tutor.
2) Executing chaining spells for the win gets a lot harder when you have mulliganed or the opponent plays a lot of discard effects.

This leads to some thought about what starting-hands should be kept and what not.

Starting hands

I lost round one vs. Dredge partly to keeping bad hands. I knew that my opponent was playing Dredge and that he was very inexperienced with it. G1 I kept something like: 2 Lands, Thoughtseize, Ill-Gotten Gains, 2 LED, Dark Ritual (on the play). My logic was that the discard-spell should buy me some time and all cantrips and tutors should be good game. I discarded his only outlet but he drew Breakthrough in his first drawstep. I didn't draw any business and therefore lost quickly. I don't remember the 2nd game that well but I had another nonexplosive hand that I kept and lost to Iona (I brought in Chain of course).

This experience leads to some questions:

How high do you value discards-spells vs. Dredge?

What hands should be mulliganed or kept vs. fast decks like Dredge, the mirror or TES? At the moment I came to the conclusion that the starting hand needs to have at least LED or Infernal Tutor or Dark Ritual in it.

Dredge

I know that ANT is favored vs. Dredge but I still lose to it in tournaments and I hate losing to Dredge. ;) I playtested the matchup a bit and I know that it's favorable and what to do in general. But I keep getting really slow hands vs. Dredge in tournaments.
My boarding plan (depending on the maindeck) is swapping Duress for addition bounce. Would you board in the 2nd Ad Nauseam too?

Sideboarding

I really like the “new” Doomsday-SB. I read the discussion about what to sideboard vs. Counterbalance this is my current opinion (where x is depending on your decklist):
- 2 Islands
- x Preordain
- 1 Ad Nauseam
- 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
- Chain of Vapor/Grim Tutor
+ 4 Doomsday
+ x Thoughtseize
+ 1 Shelldock Isle
+ 1 Emrakul
+ 1 Trickbind

I really don't like boarding out Infernals, LEDs and the Tendrils. As I said earlier I win most of my matches with a chained Tendrils and therefore I would like to have that option still after boarding. Even vs. Counterbalance! In game 3 of round 3 I won the 3rd game by playing Tendrils for 20. I most likely would have won with Doomsday too, but it's just one slot that opens up a lot of easy wins.

The End

I know that this post is a little bit longer than usual and maybe a bit too unfocused. But I would appreciate any helpful discussion about my thoughts and issues with ANT.

Thank you in advance,

Felix

[lorddotm]

Alright, back to ANT.

I really think Ad Nauseam is super loose in this deck, I wish I could fix that, but it just seems likenI'm going to have to live with it and move on.

pratical joke, would you mind posting your 75? Also would the Silence plan be replacing Doomsday? Because that seems kind of bad to me.

Mulliganing with this deck is fairly basic to me. If there isn't Infernal or Ad Nauseam in my opening hand I ship it unless it has LED, 2 Cantrips (where both aren't Preordain), and Rituals. For my 6 card hands, I keep anything with Infernal and Ad Nauseam, but also keep the 1 cantrip hand. 5 Cards I keep lands and castable spells. If a hand has LED+Tendrils, it has to be really broken or have Brainstorm. Against good matchups I mull fairly aggressively.

[practical joke]

I would've mulled your first hand:

First of all discard is fine against dredge, but not mandatory, because if you can't win yourself then the duress has no effect at all.
Your hand lacks a wincondition and you only play 4 in your deck (+1 ad nauseam which I didn't count).

That's honestly too low, I think, and my list isn't that far from the one you use, 6 is as low as you can get else your hands totally rely on infernal tutor.

back to your first hand, it has nothing to win with. You rely on finding either a tutor or a cantrip into tutor. Fat chance that's not going to happen fast enough.

Against dredge I never care for tearing apart their hand, winning faster than they do works better. Most dredge-able targets are there on their T2, maybe T3. (but they have no haste unless DR a FKZ)
so you have about the average of winning till T3, most of the times that's enough for anything to kill them, fix you hand and win.

Against TES I love a hand full of discard, actually that's how I win my mirrors. since we play at least 4 more cantrips than they do.
TES plays "more business" but less cantrips, if you tear down their hand, their deck becomes substantially less dangerous. Also cantripping should be done with caution. The second ad nauseam is very nice to have here as well, since half of the fights against TES will be an attrition war. The other half is, I take that one card from your hand and then win in my turn. (or blow your face at T1)

The mirror is a dieroll..no fun there, really none at all. Just go for the attrition war and go for better knowledge of the deck (by protecting your cards the right way)

[Irenicus]

Alright, back to ANT.

Mulliganing with this deck is fairly basic to me. If there isn't Infernal or Ad Nauseam in my opening hand I ship it unless it has LED, 2 Cantrips (where both aren't Preordain), and Rituals. For my 6 card hands, I keep anything with Infernal and Ad Nauseam, but also keep the 1 cantrip hand. 5 Cards I keep lands and castable spells. If a hand has LED+Tendrils, it has to be really broken or have Brainstorm. Against good matchups I mull fairly aggressively.

The chance of not having either Infernal or Ad Nauseam in your starting hand is 52,5 % with one Ad Nauseam in your deck. The probability of having LED, 2 Cantrips and Rituals isn't that easy to calculate but you would mulligan too often for my taste with ANT. This might be the case because you are coming from the TES side of the combo-spectrum.

[practical joke]

My 75 should be in a few pages back

4x misty
4x delta
3x verdant
2x sea
2x island
1x swamp

2x chrome mox
4x lotus petal
4x LED
4x ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x infernal tutor
2x ad nauseam
1x ill-gotten gains
1x tendrills
4x duress
3x thoughtseize
12x cantrip

SB: currently
3x chain
4x doomsday
1x spaghettimonster
1x shelldock
1x trop
4x xantid
1x thoughtseize


When I'd go for chants:

Mainboard: -3 verdant catacombs + 2 marsh flats,-4 misty for + 4 flooded +1 tundra ( I'm even tempted to throw away a sea, but they're to usefull decks without wasteland)
Sideboard: -1 trop, -4 xantid,+1 trundra +4 chants

this way I don't influence mainboard that badly with a lot of unneccesary duals.

However I liked Ari's trickbind, but It'll cost me the sideboard thoughtseize for sure (not that big of a problem though).

you want 2 tundra because the risk is hugely there it'll get wasted at when it fails, and I don't like risking it not getting it easily cast the second time with a petal I might not have at all. (bigger chance, less risks)


Chants are decent vs a lot of match-ups but they do not excell like a resolved xantid does vs merfolk/treshhold (that boarded out removal)

[lorddotm]

I play 2 AdN.

Also, I don't mull that often... I guess I was being too specific, I would keep rituals lands and three cabtrips, it just depends


I love Xantid Swarm, the problem is is that it is terrible against Tempo ***** (likethe one that Top 8'd the scg open) so I kind of feel uncomfortable playing them

[leegoo]

Alright, back to ANT.


Mulliganing with this deck is fairly basic to me. If there isn't Infernal or Ad Nauseam in my opening hand I ship it unless it has LED, 2 Cantrips (where both aren't Preordain), and Rituals. For my 6 card hands, I keep anything with Infernal and Ad Nauseam, but also keep the 1 cantrip hand. 5 Cards I keep lands and castable spells. If a hand has LED+Tendrils, it has to be really broken or have Brainstorm. Against good matchups I mull fairly aggressively.

I look at my hands like this (considering it's game 1 and I don't know what my opponent is playing.)
"Can this hand get there by turn 3?"
There are a TON of hands that do... and going in blind, I try to find one. That way, if my opponent is playing gobbo's/Zoo/etc I just win game 1. If it's something tougher (Top, etc) I change my strategy a bit and start trying to get into their hand.

The key to what hands to keep - It needs a plan. You also need to understand what kind of chances you have to hit something off a cantrip.
Tutors are at a premium. The grim Version runs 7 action cards (4 IT, 2 Grim, 1 AdN) so hands that start with one of those deserve a second look.
Mana is the easiest thing to find in the deck. Most versions run at least 12 accelerants. With IT, LED is generaly best, Dark ritual is the standby, and Cabal ritual is great when you have threshold (it's important to understand how fast you can get to threshold) Petal and Mox (if you play it) are both necessary but not exactly "explosive."

Keepable hands that get there also depend on how well you use your cantrips. When to brainstorm is obviously the most "skill intensive" but knowing when to ponder over preordain on turn 1 (not often) when to play a fetchland, whether to duress or preordain, etc... are small little things that seem pretty moot, but will change your win % considerably.

Also... hands with tendrils + led don't bother me much, It's normally just like taking a mulligan. Hands with LED as acceleration + IGG however... those can be problematic.

[AriLax]

Irenicus: I think you are looking at opening 7's with this deck too much like TES. One of the huge benefits of 12 cantrips is that it means you rarely mulligan. I regularly keep hands like Preordain, Duress, Petal, X (not Tutor), 3 lands and kill on 3 just because the high cantrip density means you will likely see 10-12 extra cards if you want to off of this hand by then. Specifically you can cantrip into other cantrips to see more cards. With TES you don't have that option because you only have 6-8 (list dependent) and as such a single cantrip won't pull you as far toward the perfect hand.

[lorddotm]

Irenicus: I think you are looking at opening 7's with this deck too much like TES. One of the huge benefits of 12 cantrips is that it means you rarely mulligan. I regularly keep hands like Preordain, Duress, Petal, X (not Tutor), 3 lands and kill on 3 just because the high cantrip density means you will likely see 10-12 extra cards if you want to off of this hand by then. Specifically you can cantrip into other cantrips to see more cards. With TES you don't have that option because you only have 6-8 (list dependent) and as such a single cantrip won't pull you as far toward the perfect hand.

That seems like a ridiculously loose keep. If Preordain misses (which is a pretty insignificant chance), you literally do nothing. TES has more live draws to kill or literally stall (one advantage of Chant right there) for the turn 3 or 4 kill.

At the last tournament I was at, I missed on action twice when I had a hand with 2 cantrips. You must have Bryant Cook style luck (that man keeps the most disgusting hands ever).

[Vesper Ghoul]

You must have Bryant Cook style luck (that man keeps the most disgusting hands ever).

I heard Ari Lax draws pretty well too.

[seamonkeyman]

Practical Joke, your list is 61 cards. Is that accurate?

[Irenicus]

Irenicus: I think you are looking at opening 7's with this deck too much like TES. One of the huge benefits of 12 cantrips is that it means you rarely mulligan. I regularly keep hands like Preordain, Duress, Petal, X (not Tutor), 3 lands and kill on 3 just because the high cantrip density means you will likely see 10-12 extra cards if you want to off of this hand by then. Specifically you can cantrip into other cantrips to see more cards. With TES you don't have that option because you only have 6-8 (list dependent) and as such a single cantrip won't pull you as far toward the perfect hand.

I myself thought in the opposite direction. I don't have a huge TES-background and get the feeling that I keep too many cantrip-heavy hands. That was the reason why I wrote the post actually. The problem I have having with the cantrip-heavy hands is that they are better in slower matchups and help setting up a secure-chaining-10 spells-kill. I like that playstyle, but maybe too much. Because in certain matchups it's certainly not the best direction for your deck.

[practical joke]

Practical Joke, your list is 61 cards. Is that accurate?

oops a catacombs to many..

Only play 15 lands instead of 16 listed.

[leegoo]

61 is the new tech... isn't everyone up on that yet :)

[lorddotm]

I heard Ari Lax draws pretty well too.

Magic: the Gathering. Skill game.

[sperry023]

Magic: the Gathering. Skill game.
I've been lurking the forums for a while trying to learn more about Legacy, but I had to finally post to point to the quote in my signature.

Yes, it's a skill game, and yes, deck design comes down to minimizing the effects of random draws. But in the end, unless you make efforts to do so, you don't control the top card of your deck.

[leegoo]

ok, I vote no more talk about how well people draw cards...

I'm at a point now where I'm not sure if I want to play Meditate or Show & Tell in the board. Both fill the same role in the deck (another option post doomsday) however, show & tell has the advantage of taking up less slots alltogether.

I'm also going to give Practical's current sideboard a go. I do like Xantid vs. Fish and BUG.

[Irenicus]

Back to sideboarding with ANT:

Against which decks (other than CB) do you board Doomsday (with Emrakul)? I wouldn't board it vs 4-Wasteland.dec but might board it vs slower controldecks which play a lot of permanentbased stormhate (e.g. "Quinn", Enchantress).

On the other hand I can imagine that Doomsday with a Meditate-Tendrils-kill might be a good way to win in certain matchups. Therefore I am thinking about cutting the additional Ad Nauseam for a Meditate. Do you think that Doomsday (with Tendrils) is good backup plan vs. decks like BUG which play a lot of discard?

[JamieW89]

Back to sideboarding with ANT:

Against which decks (other than CB) do you board Doomsday (with Emrakul)? I wouldn't board it vs 4-Wasteland.dec but might board it vs slower controldecks which play a lot of permanentbased stormhate (e.g. "Quinn", Enchantress).

On the other hand I can imagine that Doomsday with a Meditate-Tendrils-kill might be a good way to win in certain matchups. Therefore I am thinking about cutting the additional Ad Nauseam for a Meditate. Do you think that Doomsday (with Tendrils) is good backup plan vs. decks like BUG which play a lot of discard?

Not alot of decks since alot of the matchups that ask for it run wasteland and/or stifle. I'd rather board in bounce to deal with permanent hate as well.
Your Ad Nauseam gets even worse if you also add Meditate. My friend is testing +1 Meditate +1 Doomsday +1 Grim, +4 Top, -4 Preordain, -2 Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam and I'm not sure if he likes it really.
I suppose you could still run 2 Chrome Moxen and less Cabal Rituals (I'd still keep 2 though) in order to make AdN better but I'm not sure if the extra option outweighs a less good Ad Nauseam (and a harder decision tree).
I wouldn't play a meditate main without doomsday main, you don't board it in often enough imo. You could run it side though.

[leegoo]

The Current List. I posted this on the StormBoards but figured I'd throw it up here as well.

//Main
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea

//Board
4 Doomsday
1 Shell-Dock Isle
1 Emrakul
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
2 CoV
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Chrome Mox - I don't like Chrome mox. There are very few spells you "want" to imprint before going off. That's the bad part. On the good side, it adds some raw power to the deck, makes getting hellbent without LED a bit easier, and brings the count of possible outs after AdN with no mana floating up to six. I have come to think that Mox's strongest asset to the deck is allowing you to run less (15 as opposed to 17) land while still having the same number of mana sources. Much Like Grim Tutor, I think it's a necessary evil.

Doomsday Package AND Xantid. The sideboard needs to be dedicated to the two worst matchups, Countertop and the BUG Team America decks...

Swarm has been the best thing I have found in the TA matchup (and it's pretty good vs. fish of course...) and of course DD is great vs. Top.

I've been playing a bit more Solidarity lately than ANT though... so maybe I'm out of touch :)ed

[NesretepNoj]

@leegoo: I like your list except for two small things. First, I think that the Bloodstained Mire should be a Verdant Catacombs. Being able to fetch up Tropical Island is more important than jedi mind tricking the opponont into believing you are plaing something else. Second, I'm a bit worried by your low number of CoVs. I've actually considered going op to four sometimes. My guess would be, that in a large tournament, you will lose too many games against random permanent based hate cards. I might be wrong though.

[lorddotm]

practical joke, do you ever find yourself lacking in action?

I find myself lacking in action more times than I would like. I'm officially going to give Grim Tutor a shot. If it turns out to be as bad as I think it will be, I will be sticking with TES until a better tutor is printed (never going to happen).

[leegoo]

@leegoo: I like your list except for two small things. First, I think that the Bloodstained Mire should be a Verdant Catacombs. Being able to fetch up Tropical Island is more important than jedi mind tricking the opponont into believing you are plaing something else. Second, I'm a bit worried by your low number of CoVs. I've actually considered going op to four sometimes. My guess would be, that in a large tournament, you will lose too many games against random permanent based hate cards. I might be wrong though.

you are right on the fetch lands, hadn't changed it yet to reflect my adding green to the list. (Brain Fart) Nice catch.

It's fair that you become a bit weaker to teeg/canonist/pillar/whatever somebody decided to run to hate you out, especially considering you don't have the extra thoughtseizes. It's a valid concern for sure. However, The DD package VASTLY helps your Counterbalance match, and Swarm is quite a boost against Team America... whereas multiple CoV's are generally only good in matchups that are already favorable. Also, at least from what I've seen, most people have moved to running Mindbreak trap as their hate. Still, I could see cutting the Hurkyl's for another CoV (actually, an echoing truth would probably be better in that scenario)

[leegoo]

practical joke, do you ever find yourself lacking in action?

I find myself lacking in action more times than I would like. I'm officially going to give Grim Tutor a shot. If it turns out to be as bad as I think it will be, I will be sticking with TES until a better tutor is printed (never going to happen).

you may be surprised. Although Grim does look fairly bad on paper (and, also has it's moments of being terrible off an Ad Nauseam) many times not being forced to have hellbent is fairly relevant. Especially post board when you need to search up something (it happens... though rarely)

[practical joke]

practical joke, do you ever find yourself lacking in action?

I find myself lacking in action more times than I would like. I'm officially going to give Grim Tutor a shot. If it turns out to be as bad as I think it will be, I will be sticking with TES until a better tutor is printed (never going to happen).

It does happen, but very rarely, but that's the risk when playing the list. I however cantrip aggressively to that single card I really need, the rest I pick on the way, or isn't that necessary as it might seem. (you find tons of mana, don't ever worry about that)

I do prefer to add one tutor in the list, but I'm not a real fan of Grim tutor, but that doesn't say it's not a decent card.

If you could, you should really test the grim tutor list as well. Because you should try to find the deck that suits you best, even though the ammount of cards my list and Ari's differ is small, it does play slightly different at times.

[AriLax]

It does happen, but very rarely, but that's the risk when playing the list. I however cantrip aggressively to that single card I really need, the rest I pick on the way, or isn't that necessary as it might seem. (you find tons of mana, don't ever worry about that)

I do prefer to add one tutor in the list, but I'm not a real fan of Grim tutor, but that doesn't say it's not a decent card.

If you could, you should really test the grim tutor list as well. Because you should try to find the deck that suits you best, even though the ammount of cards my list and Ari's differ is small, it does play slightly different at times.

This is very accurate. Cantripping aggressively is very important for this deck. When you need the tutor you usually don't want to just randomly leave another card on top unless you also are going to need that one to go off for sure (ie. an LED).

[lorddotm]

I definitely do not cantrip passively with this deck, if I need business spells, I will not be keeping anything that isn't that, but sometimes that just isn't enough.

I am trying the Grim Tutors, and Ad Nauseam is even weaker in that build. Going off with no mana floating is pretty much impossible, which makes playing against taxing counters kind of hard (not that it is hard to pay for the counters but it is hard to pay for the counters and have mana floating after AdN). I've noticed that anything less than 2 mana floating is dangerous, and I would never go for it without mana floating (baring it being my only option of course).

The one good thing is that Tutor chains become the main way to kill, which is not a terrible thing.

[leegoo]

it's also important (and moreso if you aren't running the grims) to take a second look at hands that have "business" (Infernals, Ad Nauseams) in them. There are a LOT of mana producers in the deck, but not a lot of business spells. It's considerably easier to cantrip/raw draw into some acceleration than into a tutor.

Of course that's just stating the obvious I suppose.

[JohnBaltimore]

How does everyone beat the Team America deck?

Since Counterbalance is losing popularity among the SCG Opens, I have been considering going back to playing Dark Confidant and an extra Tendrils in the board over Doomsday.

Thoughts?

[emidln]

I've been playing DDFT with a Painter sideboard.

[leegoo]

I've been playing DDFT with a Painter sideboard.

certainly sounds interesting. What does the Painter board net you matchup wise?

@John - it's Legacy, it's just a crap shoot in a way. One weekend you can sit down from pet decks all day long, the next week you can play nothing but "established" decks... If you don't end up sitting down from Countertop, having those 6 slots as something else is definitely enticing.

[lorddotm]

I've been playing DDFT with a Painter sideboard.

List please?

[emidln]

The list is for a different thread, but the main idea of storm being much harder to assemble than a 2 card combo against Team America remains. I'd argue that I have more tutors (2 extra with 4 DD vs 2 Grim Tutor) and SDT over Preordain is a huge benefit in the matchup with regards to assembling painter/grindstone, but I'd imagine you could apply it successfully anyway in UB ANT.

[leegoo]

it's most certainly neat that the combo assembles for a single dark ritual. I may try to throw something in and see how it works. From looks (in the normal'ish UB ANT wish anyways) it seems that it's probably quite a bit weaker in the CB matchup. However, if it can come in in some other matchups as well and improve them... it may still be worth it.

On an aside, I'm liking running Doomsday and Xantid Swarm in the board. It doesn't leave room for much of anything else, but both are very helpful in your two worst matchups (CB and Team America respectively) I think the maindeck will have to change to a 3/3 split of duress / thoughtsieze though (as opposed to 4/2)

[Final Fortune]

practical joke, do you ever find yourself lacking in action?

I find myself lacking in action more times than I would like. I'm officially going to give Grim Tutor a shot. If it turns out to be as bad as I think it will be, I will be sticking with TES until a better tutor is printed (never going to happen).

Have you guys considered the Vintage 4xAd Nauseam, 3xTendrils of Agony configurations? Your ability to mulligan or draw into a threat and your ability to storm by hand increases dramatically. I think you guys can safely SB Ill Gotten Gains, trim Pre Ordain, Thought Seize and Cabal Ritual and find the space you need to increase your business.

[Jonathan Alexander]

The issue with this configuration is that you're dying off Ad Nauseam way too often. I tried a list with four Ad Nauseam and a single Tendrils without cantrips and Duress / Pact Of Negation before, but flipping Ad Nauseam really hurts. Especially when you flip multiples.
I think I was also playing Culling The Weak and Dryad Arbor to power out Ad Nauseam as early as possible, but the damage was just too high all the time.

[Final Fortune]

The issue with this configuration is that you're dying off Ad Nauseam way too often. I tried a list with four Ad Nauseam and a single Tendrils without cantrips and Duress / Pact Of Negation before, but flipping Ad Nauseam really hurts. Especially when you flip multiples.
I think I was also playing Culling The Weak and Dryad Arbor to power out Ad Nauseam as early as possible, but the damage was just too high all the time.

That's the reasoning for playing 3xTendrils instead of 1, if they get away with it in Vintage I don't see why we can't get away with it here.

[Jonathan Alexander]

They have more and better fast mana, that's the reason.

[socialite]

Have you guys considered the Vintage 4xAd Nauseam, 3xTendrils of Agony configurations? Your ability to mulligan or draw into a threat and your ability to storm by hand increases dramatically. I think you guys can safely SB Ill Gotten Gains, trim Pre Ordain, Thought Seize and Cabal Ritual and find the space you need to increase your business.

Ad Nauseam is a poor replacement for the interaction you lose by removing TS and PO; in addition you are cutting some of the best fast Mana the deck has to offer as well as gutting the most efficient and safe Storm engine the deck runs.

Additional ToA only serve to clog your hand.

Not to be a fan boy but, it took people months to catch on to Ari Lax and his constant harping regarding AnT. Yet people still have a hard on for the AnT kill - if I only had a dollar for every time I watched someone fizzle with Ad Nauseam. I strongly suggest you try running through some IGG kills and learn the pros and cons of an AdN kill vs IGG.

Vintage AnT as stated (to a limited extent) is a much a different beast from Legacy AnT, the similarities you try to draw between the two with your suggestion make me wonder how well of an understanding you have of either.

[Doomsday]

Yeah Vintage ANT is different. They just need to hit one tutor off it, which finds Yawg Will and they win. They're also going to Ad Nauseam from higher life totals, no one's swinging at them with Nacatls, Goblin Guides, Steppe Lynx, hasty Piledrivers, etc

[leegoo]

Not to harp on it, but agreed. The lack of Power makes running more than 2-3 spells that cast over 2 mana a liability. As we've discussed before on this thread, even flipping a Grim Tutor can be quite painful. Flipping an Ad Nauseam off of an Ad Nauseam (in the version that runs 2 and no grims) is just about the biggest sigh you can get in the deck.

Sometimes even in the "grim" list, you just cast AdN, flip IGG, Flip Grim, Flip Grim, Flip Tendrils, lose.

That said, I say we bring back IGGy Pop...

[x8eikdls]

I've recently started testing this deck out in place of TES because it offers a more stable manabase in the Stifle/Wasteland meta. I've been running Ari's old list with Dark Confidants in the board, and I'm wondering if anybody else has found Bob to be really underwhelming? I've tested them post-board vs Team America and BGW Junk, and in both cases they never did all that much. I'd stick a Bob, they would stick a Goyf/Knight/Tombstalker, then we would rip each other's hands a part while the Goyf bashes for 4-5 and Bob bashes for 2. The damage from Goyf + Bob made Ad Nauseam a lot worse, and the hand disruption made a tutor chain almost impossible. IGG was great in this situation vs BGW Junk, but no so much vs Team America.

Bob was only really good when they had no clock in play. For that reason, I can see it being awesome in the mirror, but it felt really underwhelming vs BGW and Team America.

Anybody else have similar results? Any suggestions on cards to replace it with? Maybe another Ad Nauseam to increase the chances of drawing 1 early, and maxing out on Thoughtseize to fight their disruption post-board?

[practical joke]

I was never a fan of dark confidant since it's actually sloooooow, if you read up for a few pages you can see that Ari has changed his sideboard a bit.

The second ad nauseam is actually quite decent since that'll give you the cards you want, protect it with everything you have and not a lot can go wrong.

Your cantrips are actually very important vs the rock and TA, because both are attrition wars and ad nauseam will totally overwhelm them.
Also information is key, this is in any match-up, but even more important vs Team America, get a duress/thoughtseize done early and play with that information and calculate carefully.

Also chants are very very good in the TA match-up.

[lorddotm]

Also chants are very very good in the TA match-up.

So are Xantid.


I've recently started testing this deck out in place of TES because it offers a more stable manabase in the Stifle/Wasteland meta. I've been running Ari's old list with Dark Confidants in the board, and I'm wondering if anybody else has found Bob to be really underwhelming? I've tested them post-board vs Team America and BGW Junk, and in both cases they never did all that much. I'd stick a Bob, they would stick a Goyf/Knight/Tombstalker, then we would rip each other's hands a part while the Goyf bashes for 4-5 and Bob bashes for 2. The damage from Goyf + Bob made Ad Nauseam a lot worse, and the hand disruption made a tutor chain almost impossible. IGG was great in this situation vs BGW Junk, but no so much vs Team America.

Bob was only really good when they had no clock in play. For that reason, I can see it being awesome in the mirror, but it felt really underwhelming vs BGW and Team America.

Anybody else have similar results? Any suggestions on cards to replace it with? Maybe another Ad Nauseam to increase the chances of drawing 1 early, and maxing out on Thoughtseize to fight their disruption post-board?

Bob has always been terrible for me, so I don't even bother with Bobs when I play ANT.

More Ad Nauseam (if you run only 1 main) and Thoughtseizes are very important, and highly recommended against both decks. Like I said before, Xantid is very good against Team America.

[practical joke]

Xantid's are mediocre since those good players don't board out removal, the idiots however do, but those should be easy wins as well since they can hardly tie their own shoes.

Chants always do the same, no matter if they board out removal or not ( if they don't, they'll have dead cards)

Anyways, both have advantages and disadvantages, and xantid's aren't always great.

Tempo-match-ups are hard, no matter which one and I still haven't found a GOOD sideboard card against it, only decent cards (chant, xantid, carpet )

[lorddotm]

Xantid's are mediocre since those good players don't board out removal, the idiots however do, but those should be easy wins as well since they can hardly tie their own shoes.

Chants always do the same, no matter if they board out removal or not ( if they don't, they'll have dead cards)

Anyways, both have advantages and disadvantages, and xantid's aren't always great.

Tempo-match-ups are hard, no matter which one and I still haven't found a GOOD sideboard card against it, only decent cards (chant, xantid, carpet )

Chant doesn't solve the problem of taxing counters. They rarely have more than Force as a hard counter, and getting rid of Stifle with Duress after Ad Nauseam is not a huge issue.

Also, I do think that even good players side out their removal since it is straight dead if the other guy doesn't play Xantid, and considering a good portion don't, you should be fine.

Canadian Thresh is just an appalling match up, even with Chants (Xantids are horrible against them), and there is nothing you can actually do against this.

[practical joke]

You should use ill-gotten gains more often after chants.

[lorddotm]

You should use ill-gotten gains more often after chants.

I do, but thats not the point. What I was saying is that resolving Chant is very similar to resolving Duress since you still have to play around all the taxing counters (smart players won't bother using them on Chant, instead just Forcing the Chant and forcing you to play through their Dazes and Pierces if you decide to go for it that turn).

All I'm saying is that Xantid makes it easier to play through Dazes and Pierces, and for that, it is worth at least considering.

[leegoo]

after you resolve chant why would you be worried about daze/pierce?

Not a Bob fan either. I half suspect something like phyrexian arena would be better most of the time... and of course it's just as slow.

On Chant vs. Swarm... I'd probably rather have swarm, simply because green gives you access to either Krosan Grip or Bound//Determined as well.

[practical joke]

after you resolve chant why would you be worried about daze/pierce?

Not a Bob fan either. I half suspect something like phyrexian arena would be better most of the time... and of course it's just as slow.

On Chant vs. Swarm... I'd probably rather have swarm, simply because green gives you access to either Krosan Grip or Bound//Determined as well.

Krosan grip sucks, thought we cleared that one out by now?

I feel something for both cards, but I choose xantids/carpet.
They only require me to splash a single trop instead of double tundra. you simply know that a single chant might not get you there. while when your T1 xantid gets forced, bummer if they waste it, you got your advantage already.

[leegoo]

I know... I'm just saying. You get more options with green...

[JohnBaltimore]

So if you're on the insect plan, what do you board in against TA an what do you board out?

(assuming its Ari's list, or very close to it)

[lorddotm]

after you resolve chant why would you be worried about daze/pierce?


Forcing the Chant and forcing you to play through their Dazes and Pierces if you decide to go for it that turn.

Obviously if you resolve Chant you win. Reading is tech my friend.


@practical: You were arguing against Xantid, but you run Xantid? Interesting.

@JohnBaltimore: I would go

-1 Island
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-2 Preordain

+1 Tropical Island
+3 Xantid Swarm

Maybe taking out more stuff for extra Thoughtseize, I don't exactly know.

[leegoo]

ok. You worded it poorly is all.

On the boarding... I can't see the situation you would board in xantid and board out IGG...

[JohnBaltimore]

Obviously if you resolve Chant you win. Reading is tech my friend.


@practical: You were arguing against Xantid, but you run Xantid? Interesting.

@JohnBaltimore: I would go

-1 Island
-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
-2 Preordain

+1 Tropical Island
+3 Xantid Swarm

Maybe taking out more stuff for extra Thoughtseize, I don't exactly know.

going with what leegoo said - If I am Swarming them, IGG is most likely better than AdN later in the game. I was thinking
-1 Island
-4 Preordain
+1 Thoughtseize
+3 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tropical Island

Would this apply to Merfolk as well?

[leegoo]

going with what leegoo said - If I am Swarming them, IGG is most likely better than AdN later in the game. I was thinking
-1 Island
-4 Preordain
+1 Thoughtseize
+3 Xantid Swarm
+1 Tropical Island

Would this apply to Merfolk as well?

Against Merfolk I'd rather have some of the cantrips back in. I'd probably be something like
-1 island (or chrome mox possibly - I run 2 Main however)
-2 Preordain
-3 Duress

+3 Xantid Swarm
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Tropical

This way you are still upping your number of protection spells (and upgrading them at that) but a bit less likely to get that neat hand of "duress, land, land, thoughtseize, swarm, petal, duress"

[JohnBaltimore]

Looks good, I'll definitely try that!

So, this weekend I'll be playing at a local tournament and I expect there to be some of that new affinity deck, Team America, merfolk, and of course Junk/Rock.

What would you suggest my board be? I am playing Ari Lax's main deck, but am not sure what I should play in the 15. I don't think the Doomsday plan is necessary since CBT has lost a LOT of popularity recently, and not many people play it around here.

I definitely want the following...

3+ Xantid Swarm
1x Tropical Island
2x Thoughtseize
1+ Rebuild
3+ CoV

All opinions welcome.

[x8eikdls]

Is Xantid Swarm a better option than Carpet of Flowers? I haven't tested Carpet at all, but I've lost games with a resolved Xantid Swarm because they're able to strip the business from my hand while sticking a Goyf or Tombstalker. If Carpet is in play, you should be able to generate enough mana so that all you need is 1 Tutor to get something going.

I realize Xantid Swarm is probably better overall since its the nuts vs Merfolk (Carpet seems better vs. Thresh variants, but Merfolk is way more popular), but I'm wondering about the Team America match in particular.

[practical joke]

I always remain a critic,

Xantid, carpet and chant aren't all a perfect answer.
However during the merfolk/vengevine period Xantid was by far the best, and I'll prefer to play with it and read my opponent when he's playing a certain deck. (so far worked fine)

Won my matches vs Dark Tempo Treshhold due to that.

Nowadays players are smart enough to keep in their removal when they can expect a xantid (in big tournaments I will rethink carefully about chants, xantids and carpets)

vs TA I'll board:

-2 duress
-2 preordain
-1 fetch

for

1 trop
4 xantids

this way you have 9 protection spells, playing 11 is absolutely not needed and probably overkill ( 9 might be overkill already) because you are going to play the one thing you actually didn't wanted if play more than 9....the attrition war.
sometimes I take out both chrome moxes or sometimes I just take another preordain or duress out, it depends a bit on the player I play against.

[Azdraël]

About Bob:
I've never been a great fan of Bob. Been trying it for a couple of months though, and I cannot play without him now. Agaisnt CB.decks, Evagreen, Rock (every kind of discard deck), Stax-like, Mirror, he buys you the time to find more anti-hate/combo enablers. Along with Xantid, your opponent would never have enough removls for both of theml since he is obliged to side-out some if he wants to side-in hate cards.

About the pv matter, for sure when you side-in Bob, you take away one Ad Nauseam. But seriously, with Mox, LP and DR, a Bob t1 is really frequent and THAT good. (particularly fond of t1 DR + duress + bob)

[practical joke]

About Bob:
I've never been a great fan of Bob. Been trying it for a couple of months though, and I cannot play without him now. Agaisnt CB.decks, Evagreen, Rock (every kind of discard deck), Stax-like, Mirror, he buys you the time to find more anti-hate/combo enablers. Along with Xantid, your opponent would never have enough removls for both of theml since he is obliged to side-out some if he wants to side-in hate cards.

About the pv matter, for sure when you side-in Bob, you take away one Ad Nauseam. But seriously, with Mox, LP and DR, a Bob t1 is really frequent and THAT good. (particularly fond of t1 DR + duress + bob)

He's slooooooow before he finally does anything usefull. he starts making advantage 2 turns later at least. on average that's turn 4 before he starts making a low profit.

Now tell me, against CB, haven't you lost by that turn? ( CB+top assembled)

against all kind of discard decks the same trick is applied everytime...
cantrips the right way and you'll still win, just cost a bit of effort, they still cannot interfere once you started combo-ing.
The rock for example even has that much removal they can't even board everything out.

[AriLax]

Bob was rank in testing vs. CB, even if you just maxed out on discard to make the extra cards most relevant. The only times he is good is when they have a bad clock and you are throwing discard at each other, so basically the mirror and GBx. Problem is you can just overpower WGB Junk naturally and the mirror you often randomly just die on turn 2-3 before Bob matters. That basically leaves BUG for it to be reasonable.

[lorddotm]

One huge issue with Bob is that you are almost forced to have a second Tendrils since he goes really well with the mini tendrils them out plan.


Also, any time Bob is good, something else would've been faster, especially since he sucks to flip off of Ad Nauseam.

[Neuad]

// Lands
2 [SOM] Island (1)
2 [SOM] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark

Here is the storm list I plan on playing and was looking for some advice on it. . .any changes I could make etc. I was playing a list without burning wish, and white instead. . .and while I like orim's chant, I think Burning Wish with just black disruption is better overall. . .since playing 4 Infernals and that's it can be bad at times. . .I havent quite decided 100% but I'm going to play the wish version for now, as I own all the cards for it. . but all I'm missing for the white version is Chants

The SB is what I'm most worried about. . there's about 15 cards I want to fit in for Wish targets, but with the Doomsday plan against Countertop, Infernal Tendrils and IGG, I'm kind of hampered on space. The other cards I want to fit in are the obvious choices, Shattering Spree, ETW, etc. Maybe squeeze the 3rd Thoughtseize in the main and open up another slot in the board but I gotta play around with it.

Any advice would be great, as I'm a relatively new combo player. Thanks!

[practical joke]

-1 volcanic into
+1 badlands ( sometimes you want it)
-1 tendrils of agony (really, you'll cast burning wish into tendrils every single time without a lot of effort)
+1 ad nauseam/thoughtseize (yes the second ad nauseam is actually quite good)

You could take the risk and remove the ill-gotten gains out of mainboard, this is optional.
Also 4 basics are not needed, you can easily go -1 swamp , + fetch
change the catacombs and into scalding tarns or more misty, minor details though.

[lorddotm]

-1 volcanic into
+1 badlands ( sometimes you want it)
-1 tendrils of agony (really, you'll cast burning wish into tendrils every single time without a lot of effort)
+1 ad nauseam/thoughtseize (yes the second ad nauseam is actually quite good)

You could take the risk and remove the ill-gotten gains out of mainboard, this is optional.
Also 4 basics are not needed, you can easily go -1 swamp , + fetch
change the catacombs and into scalding tarns or more misty, minor details though.

Having played TES, having that Tendrils main can be extremely important, I would not chant that.

I would add a Badlands though. You probably won't be needing 2 Volcanics ever.

Also, you might want to look into playing Empty somewhere in the 75, that card is great.

[x8eikdls]

I would make room for 1 Empty the Warrens in the board. Having access to the card will give you a lot of free wins. Also, replace the Rebuild with Shattering Spree (or Pulverize) so you can wish for artifact removal. Having a 1-of Rebuild with no way to find it (no Grim Tutors) doesn't seem that great.

Having played a lot of TES, the 4th Infernal Tutor was always better in the main deck for game 1. The situations where you would want to Burning Wish for Infernal to find an Ad Nauseam were pretty rare, and generally only happened vs. slow Landstill variants. However, your list plays 12 cantrips instead of the usual 8 to get Cabal Ritual thresholded, so I'm not sure if the same logic still applies. Something to think about it at least.

[lordofthepit]

Having played a lot of TES, the 4th Infernal Tutor was always better in the main deck for game 1. The situations where you would want to Burning Wish for Infernal to find an Ad Nauseam were pretty rare, and generally only happened vs. slow Landstill variants. However, your list plays 12 cantrips instead of the usual 8 to get Cabal Ritual thresholded, so I'm not sure if the same logic still applies. Something to think about it at least.

I think most of the TES players agreed that 4 Infernal Tutors is better than having one in the sideboard.

However, I think this deck plays differently. Because Neaud's proposed build runs more fetches, more cantrips, and Cabal Rituals (instead of Chrome Moxes and Rite of Flames), it's able to generate more mana (which isn't surprising--it's basically Ari Lax's ANT build except with Burning Wish instead of Grim Tutor). As such, it's often useful to be able to tutor chain, provided there's enough red.

Being able to go Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor->Infernal Tutor->Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish->Tendrils can probably win a lot of games without Ad Nauseam and without exposing yourself to gravehate with an IGG loop. This play isn't really possible in TES, which is why I'm not surprised that a 4th Infernal in the sideboard isn't great there.

[Bahamuth]

By far the most common play you will make when you have an Infernal Tutor in your board, is going to be Wish for Infernal, Go. Winning the same turn requires 9 mana for the combo alone. You are generally trying to be playing around Daze or Duressing in the meantime.

However, in pretty much every scenario in the current format (where you're either being beaten down quickly, being comboed out or being tempoed out), Wish->Infernal, go is worse than Wish->EtW or Wish->Returns. This deck can't behave like Doomsday combo because the Infernal Tutor engine depends on either high life totals or the absence of counters/other harmful spells in the opponent's graveyard. Wish->Infernal Tutor isn't a winning play often enough to warrant cutting your most powerful engine down by one in the mainboard, even in this list that can generally make slightly more mana than TES does.

Depending on your meta, I'd cut the mainboard IGG and ToA. I hate having dead cards in my mainboard. However, it's possible you'll be forced to run them. If your meta is aggro-heavy, you want them in your 75. If you insist on running Doomsday in the board, you won't have the room to support 2 ToA and 1/2 IGG side (depending on wether you value IGG high enough as a Wish target).

You need an EtW sideboard. It's actually your most used target for Wish.

You shouldn't be running 2 Swamps. Think about what that second basic does for you. The only time it's relevant is when you're casting 2 Duresses the turn before you win. In your combo turn, you generally need one black. The exception is the scenario where you want to cast your Duress/TS before you cast a ritual. In this case, you might just as well fetch a Sea in the combo turn.

The rebuild sideboard seems off. You can't even Wish for that card. It's better as either some kind of Wishable artifact solution like Shattering Spree or Pulverize, or as another Chain of Vapor.

I wouldn't run the second AdN. Most of my team disagrees here (including Practical Joke). I am, however, clearly much better at this game than them, so you should listen to me.

[practical joke]

I wouldn't run the second AdN. Most of my team disagrees here (including Practical Joke). I am, however, clearly much better at this game than them, so you should listen to me.

how nice, I wouldn't say better, but definately more experienced.

so yes, it's worth listening to Bahamuth.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

+1 I hate the second Ad Nauseam.

[Neuad]

(which isn't surprising--it's basically Ari Lax's ANT build except with Burning Wish instead of Grim Tutor)..


Ari plays at my local store, and I talked to him about this deck as I tossed around ideas. . .that's why it's really similiar =p

[practical joke]

+1 I hate the second Ad Nauseam.

I love it, since ad nauseam is awesome and even better in the red splash.

[Neuad]

Never liked the 2nd Ad Naus due to flipping it off itself really blew. Taking into account the advice I'm gonna play around with

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [SOM] Island (1)
2 [SOM] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [B] Badlands

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere


I agree about the basics thing, but if I'm going to cut one it's gonna be an island. If that doesnt work I'll cut a swamp instead but I'll play around with both. Thanks again for all the advice.

[lordofthepit]

This is just theorycrafting, but I think unlike TES, you might benefit from having the 4th Infernal Tutor in the sideboard for the following reasons:

1) Your Ad Nauseams are much weaker than TES because they have 4 Chrome Moxes which you don't. As a result, you have to go off with mana floating, probably later in the game at a lower life total. The main reason to have the 4th IT main is to get better access to Ad Nauseam.
2) Your Empty the Warrens are also weaker than TES. Again, you tend to go off later, you have lands instead of Moxes which would help building early storm, and you don't have Orim's Chant to help race. I agree with not including a maindeck EtW but do agree with the sideboard copy; however, since you lack a maindeck EtW, that's even less reason for the 4th IT maindeck.
3) Like Ari's build, you will often kill with IGG loops or Tutor chains, and you can build much more mana than TES can to allow for this. Having a Burning Wish for IGG but no other tutor effect to continue the loop is awkward. Being able to build a huge tutor chain with plenty of mana, but only having a single copy Burning Wish in hand is also awkward. From reading the tournament reports, it seems Ari often goes IGG loop with Grim Tutor when he has no access to Infernal Tutor (or not enough mana to tutor chain). You end up paying 6 mana (and 6 life) for Grim Tutor in that case. Conveniently enough, Wish->IT>IGG->IT also costs 6 mana for the tutors (with an extra mana required before IGG, but builds one extra storm).

I totally agree with 4 Infernal Tutors maindecked in TES. I just think this build differs enough where I'd strongly consider the 4th one in the sideboard unless there's compelling evidence from testing that you'd prefer it main. Seven tutor effects and one Ad Nauseam should be enough business with 11-12 cantrips and lots of shuffling effects.

[Admiral_Arzar]

*Decklist*



Since you're so far along toward TES already, have you considered running Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual? Also, you should make room for an Emrakul in the board if you're going to run Shelldock Isle :P.

[Rune]

A while back, I top8'ed with a hybrid between ANT and emidln's TES. There were things I hated about both TES and ANT, and so I wanted to merge the lists slightly to try and fix the problems that I saw. Infernal in the SB simply because there were too many times during testing where I wanted to Wish for it. The only time where Wish->IT is bad is when you're on the draw against fast aggro and you don't have C.Mox to turn 1 it. When you're on the play, it sets up a turn 3 win where you have ~14 life to fool around with.


Instants [12]
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries [23]
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame

Artifacts [11]
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands [14]
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:

1 Chain of Vapor
3 Dark Confidant
1 Deathmark
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pulverize
1 Rebuild
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

At that time, I didn't think I needed Pyroblasts because I beleved the best way to beat CB was to slam turn 1 Confidant+Duress or just EtW for 10. In retrospect, I should probably have played some blasts, though.

[Neuad]

Since you're so far along toward TES already, have you considered running Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual? Also, you should make room for an Emrakul in the board if you're going to run Shelldock Isle :P.

One of the bounce spells is supposed to be Emrakul, my mistake =p

And no I dont really want to run Rites and Chromes. . .I like Cabal Rit a lot, it makes me a tad bit slower to hit threshold but overall I feel it performs slower, and TES is too open to wasteland for me. . maybe not a 3 color version but the 4 color is.

[x8eikdls]

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere


Besides adding Emrakul for Shelldock, I'd cut the Eye of Nowhere. The only time you would wish for it over Deathmark or Shattering Spree, is vs. an Iona on black (Reanimator is barely played), and Enchantress with Solitary Confinement out. Both of those decks make up such a small percentage of the metagame that I don't think it's worth including.

[e_hawk77]

@Neuad
I really like the ant/tes mix list that you are trying. The one card I don't understand and maybe it is cuz you just didn't switch the fetches from ant is misty rainforests should most definitely be scalding tarns. Tarns fetch all you duals and get island if you want basics. also if you aren't playing rite of flame pulverize might be better than shattering spree.

[Neuad]

@Neuad
I really like the ant/tes mix list that you are trying. The one card I don't understand and maybe it is cuz you just didn't switch the fetches from ant is misty rainforests should most definitely be scalding tarns. Tarns fetch all you duals and get island if you want basics. also if you aren't playing rite of flame pulverize might be better than shattering spree.

Honestly the duals are just kinda what was there when I made the deck, starting with Ari's list. I own Flooded's, Misty's, and Polluted's. . .so I'll have to play around with my fetches until I can buy some Tarns. I'm going to play around with Shattering Spree and Pulverize. . I like the looks of Pulverize better due to mana cost, cant be counterbalanced or stopped by a Chalice@1 short of having RR open to do it with, which you have a point would be harder to attain early game trying to go off through a turn1 Chalice.

The reason I like this list is because without Grim Tutors, UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) isn't good enough. only 4 tutor's really can make a hand of Cantrip Cantrip land land rit duress LED into borderline risky because you dont know where those Tutor's are. . .with 4 Wishes and 3-4 Infernals, you have a much greater chance of drawing into them and keeping a hand like I listed.

Dont be me wrong, I liked UBW for Chant, but chant isnt worth only 4 Tutor's. It makes iggy loops a lot more fun though!

And 4 color's is just asking to lose to wasteland, which makes me SadPanda :(


Final list I will be toying around with. . .thanks for all the help.

// Lands
1 [SOM] Island (1)
2 [SOM] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[Fossil4182]

I've got some questions on side boarding for everyone. I'm playing UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) and wanted to know how people are side boarding? I know there's been a lot of discussion about what to bring in, but I'm curious as to what people are broarding out.

For example, against a deck like Merfolk, do we board out petals, cantrips, rituals? I'm thinking a discussion that covers what is boarded out against the following decks would be helpful considering we have a lot of discussion about what is boarded in. I understand that differing builds means the answers will vary to some degree, but in principal the cards that are boarder out should be the same; Wish based decks won't really "board" often so not really relevant to this question. However, boards that have Doomsday and those that don't are.

Match ups in question:

Counterbalance

Merfolk

Goblins

Chalice based decks

Stifle Wasteland decks
-Team America

-RUG

Junk

[jazzykat]

Assuming i wanted to play Lax Storm but only had 1 grim tutor should I go for it and if so what should I replace the other grim with?

[dillonkbase]

jazzy, I have that same issue, only one tutor, my initial thoughts would be to play a maindeck doomsday, it gives us an additional bomb, and comboing off of it is still possible

[Neuad]

By far the most common play you will make when you have an Infernal Tutor in your board, is going to be Wish for Infernal, Go. Winning the same turn requires 9 mana for the combo alone. You are generally trying to be playing around Daze or Duressing in the meantime.

However, in pretty much every scenario in the current format (where you're either being beaten down quickly, being comboed out or being tempoed out), Wish->Infernal, go is worse than Wish->EtW or Wish->Returns. This deck can't behave like Doomsday combo because the Infernal Tutor engine depends on either high life totals or the absence of counters/other harmful spells in the opponent's graveyard. Wish->Infernal Tutor isn't a winning play often enough to warrant cutting your most powerful engine down by one in the mainboard, even in this list that can generally make slightly more mana than TES does.


Now that I have played around with my build, granted only on MWS, I have my arguments for 3/4 Infernal/Wish main, 1 Tutor side.

I have come acrossed many games where I am unable to iggy loop for one reason or another, or I need to go for AdN but my only Tutor is a Wish. Now while I agree Wish > Go isnt the best play, it's a lot better then losing.

Wish > go, and then winning next turn is a hell of a lot better then hoping to draw into the right stuff to make your Wish work. Maybe this is due to my lack of Red mana and Wish > ETW not always being viable, or maybe I just need to slow down a bit and think through my options. . or just get better at combo in general, but in this deck that is a little bit slower then TES, I really like the mix I have going.

[x8eikdls]

Makes sense with your build. In the situations where you go Wish -> Tutor pass the turn, you would generally go Wish -> Returns with TES. You aren't playing Returns, so if IGG and EtW aren't options, Wish is kinda dead. Since TES plays Diminishing Returns, Wish is never completely dead.

[ThomasDowd]

Now that I have played around with my build, granted only on MWS, I have my arguments for 3/4 Infernal/Wish main, 1 Tutor side.

I have come acrossed many games where I am unable to iggy loop for one reason or another, or I need to go for AdN but my only Tutor is a Wish. Now while I agree Wish > Go isnt the best play, it's a lot better then losing.

Wish > go, and then winning next turn is a hell of a lot better then hoping to draw into the right stuff to make your Wish work. Maybe this is due to my lack of Red mana and Wish > ETW not always being viable, or maybe I just need to slow down a bit and think through my options. . or just get better at combo in general, but in this deck that is a little bit slower then TES, I really like the mix I have going.

how often do you find yourself with access to RR and a burning wish to empty the warrens? has it been good/ mediocore/ nice to have as a backup( leyline i guess?) or just kind of meh. i don't really seeing it help the tempo based matchups but like the increase of tutors, but alas dislike the third color. it's an interesting tradeoff.

mainly just wondering how much you have emptied the warrens and if it was worth it.

[Neuad]

I havent play the deck in anything but MWS and goldfishing, but it's nice having it as a backup plan, and RR usually isnt too hard to come by with LED's and Petals if I'm going specifically for ETW.

[lordofthepit]

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Hey Neuad, I was tinkering with a singleton Tropical Island in the maindeck with Xantid Swarms to bring in against blue and a Reverent Silence to wish for against Counterbalance, but I don't like the strain on an already greedy manabase, so I'm going to test out the Doomsday package.

Do you typically board in all 4 copies of Doomsday against Counterbalance, or do you keep one in the board for Burning Wish?

[Neuad]

I board in all 4. Wish is too slow against countertop. You want to go turn one or two doomsday. Its still a rough matchup even with doomsday.

[leegoo]

I've got some questions on side boarding for everyone. I'm playing UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) and wanted to know how people are side boarding? I know there's been a lot of discussion about what to bring in, but I'm curious as to what people are broarding out.

Ok, since there are a million different little changes people can make in their boards depending on what they expect, here's what I have fairly standard...

1x Emrakul
1x Shell Dock
4x Doomsday
1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Rebuild
1x Ad Nauseam

This board is based around trying to help your bad matchups, but it sacrifices some flexibility when 11 or so cards are dedicated to so few matches. Tropical and Xantid come in vs. the *fishy* matchups (aggro counter based decks like fish and Team America) and the DD packages generally against Counterbalance. It's worth noting my list has -1 swamp and -1 island for 2 Chrome Mox in the main, and -1 Duress +1 Thoughtsieze. (From Ari's list)




Match ups in question:

Counterbalance

In:
4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Shell Dock
1x Chain of Vapor

-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Island
-2 Preordain
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Ad Nauseam

While I agree with Ari that emptying your hand to cast doomsday (LED/Infernal) can be bad, I don't like siding out all my infernals, as it's still very possible to go for an IGG/Tutor Chain kill, especially with the additional action. The way this SB is built, you are still cold to Karakas / Wasteland, so be aware. Also, you are not very likely to *surprise* anyone with this board plan any more... but it's still very strong, especially t1/t2.




Merfolk


1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm

-1 Island
-2 Duress
-2 Preordain

I leave in thoughtsieze over duress as it hits lords. Most fish decks have no answer's to a resolved Xantid, so they basically can do nothing (except race) about stopping you if you resolve him.




Goblins

1x Ad Nauseam
2x Chain of Vapor

-2 Preordain
-1 Duress

Goblins can bring in any random # of stuff, with probably the most common being mindbreak trap (lately) which is why I go -2 pre -1 duress instead of the opposite (which would be better if they bring in thoughtsiezes of their own.) Chain is good if they bring in chalice (obviously not for 1 haha) and really, sometimes it's just good to bounce their guy.



Chalice based decks

Haven't played a ton of these, but the Rebuild is definitely still in there for them. (as opposed to Affinity, which it usually doesn't do much more than fog)

Against Dragon Stompy you can bring in the DD package, as they run too greedy a manabase to run wasteland as well. Obviously rebuild is coming in as well, and probably the chains. Sadly, with very little experience against the deck I hate to suggest what to take out. Maybe somebody with some more experience will chime in. Otherwise... I'll try testing it soon.

Against Sea Stompy Emrakul can be a liability as most versions run 2x Sowers. I would probably treat them like a fish deck but add a chain and a rebuild.

Against the Green version... I just don't have any clue... haven't seen one in a long time though so maybe there is hope ;)




-Team America

1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm
+1 Ad Nauseam

-1 Underground Sea
-2 Preordain
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Grim Tutor

I take out the mox's as they are pretty bad against any deck that is attacking your hand. Preordain gets cut as it's the next *worst* spell (although I guess you could make some argument towards lotus petal here) and the Swarms come back in, as they are only slightly worse against Team America than they are against Fish. The grim trades out with a second Ad Nauseam, as it's raw power just shines against decks that run stuff like hymn.



-RUG

Also haven't played a ton against this deck... a lot of the lists look fairly strong vs. ANT, with a good mix of counters + ways to stop Emrakul post board. Again, somebody with more experience should add in their plan.



Junk

3x Doomsday
1x Ad Nauseam
2x Chain of Vapor

-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Duress

You just want action vs. their discard. Grim Tutor is just way worse than doomsday (as you can make some pretty good doomsday piles, even pass the turn piles, when you consider that their life total is usually under strain from Bob's / Fetches.) in this match... and again, the raw power of ad Nauseam is just nuts if you get it online with enough life. Chain comes in vs. their hatebears.

Hope this helps some, of course sideboarding (and building a sideboard for that matter) has a lot of wiggle room depending on how comfortable the pilot feels with certain cards.

[Malakai]

This is what me and Ari came up with for people without Grim Tutors.

-2 Grim Tutor
-1 Infernal Tutor (this goes to the sideboard)
-1 Island
-2 Verdant Catacombs

+3 Burning Wish
+1 Volcanic Island
+2 Bloodstained Mire

The Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor -> Iggy loop costs the same as just doing the IGGy loop with Grim Tutor, but saves you six life.

Additionally, you gain some versatility in that you can:
-Wish for Deathmark (or some other sorcery)
-Wish for Doomsday [This comes up very rarely. You have to have BBBUU floating after casting the wish.]
-Make 10 goblins on turn 1. [Again, not the primary plan, but sometimes this is correct, and EtW is better than the sorcery boomerang, which I never wished for.]

And yes, four Burning Wish was too many.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's been my experience even when I did own 2x Grim Tutor and Ad Nauseam wasn't printed yet, 4 wishes is the best choice. One for the wish, otherwise infernal is just better. Grim is bad with ad nauseam 'cause it loses 2-3 flips with the life loss. Very relevant. Also, it's not that whoopy in the IGG loop either, as it screws with your mana, and allows your life total to be relevant. I run 4 wish, 3 IT, with the 4th in the board along w/ IGG #2. No grims, they complicate things, and never in my experience have they done anything useful other than act as a 5th IT, which isn't necessary unless all 4 IT's are already present in the main-board, and there's no reason for it to be game one in a list with 4x wishes.

I don't know, I think Ad Nauseam is the weakest link in the list. I know the speedy, win-now attitude it takes really entices a lot of players, and often even wins the matches it's used in, but the hard part of storm isn't the early game, it's the mid/late game that can ruin your day. Taking your time against CB lists, as well as landstill lists (haven't had a chance to play against the newest builds enough to speak on it) can be brutal on the "lets combo ASAP" style of player. Ad Nauseam might be able to be replaced. Doomsday can be fast, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

Has anyone ever looked into Praetor's Council? I know it costs 8 but it might be useful. Wish target...idk. It looks like a real expensive but possibly playable Yawgmoth's Will that is wish-able. BUrg lists could at least look at it. It takes minimum Rit, Rit, LED, 1(R), and resolve it. That's 2x rits and an LED back minimum. I really want it to be useable...It looks like funky trix.

Disclaimer: A lil' drunk, but I feel I've expressed my thoughts accurately, if not a bit naively.

--ABC

[amonchakai]

@Malakai: very interesting with burning but...how is finally the sb?
-1 Chain of Vapor
-1 Trickbind
+1 deathmark
+1 empty the warrens

[Malakai]

My sideboard is:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Deathmark
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
------

There's something to be said for having Rebuild in there somewhere. I'm not sure how necessary the Tendriils in the board is. A second Ad Naseam is good when you expect to play against discard.

I didn't like having four Wishes. Infernal Tutor is better in multiples, as you can use it to up storm count for free or grab a second ritual/LED, whereas the Wish basically just grabs a Thoughtseize in those situations.

[Neuad]

I'm thinking of dropping the DD package for my local meta, and possibly even all together. Sure it does better against countertop, but I dont feel its still very good. Especially now that they expect it. I think it's better in Ari's build, but with a Wish board I feel it takes up too many slots and hurts me more then helps me overall.

[Malakai]

Dropping the dd package is valid, although it basically puts you in a position where you need to be able to Duress them before their second turn. I think if I were to do that I'd consider the Empty the Warrens plan to be plan A against them post-board. Consider testing a second one in the sideboard so that it can be brought into the maindeck in games 2 and 3.

[Neuad]

I can see that being a plan, currently replaced the sideboard with a shitload of bounce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall

I gotta think about this one.

[leegoo]

I can see that being a plan, currently replaced the sideboard with a shitload of bounce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall

I gotta think about this one.

just an observation, but you want at least one of the hurkyl's to be a rebuild. Chalice on 2 is a very real possibility early against some decks (dragon stompy / MUD)

[Malakai]

There's no reason to have an Ill-Gotten Gains in your wishboard. Wish is removed from the game when it resolves, so you'd have to have an additional tutor/business spell in your hand/graveyard for it to do anything. I started out with one in mine, and in all my testing it came up exactly one time. The likelihood of that rare occurrence being at a time when it matters is very, very, very small.

I also had Eye of Nowhere. I think I might have been glad it was there one time. You'd much rather have a real sideboard card in that slot.

I don't like Shattering Spree. You're probably not going to have more than one red mana after you cast the Wish; two if you're lucky and they didn't jump at the chance of finally using their usually-dead Wasteland against you. Other options include Meltdown or Echoing Ruin, or (sigh) Eye of Nowhere. That said, I just don't think wishing for an answer to artifact hate is a realistic plan. You can still win through a Sphere or Chalice, and Deathmark already kills Ethersworn Canonist. Any slots you dedicate to it just seem better suited to being a Hurkyl's/Rebuild for games 2 and 3.

I've never liked Wipe Away. A smart Counterbalance player is going to float a 3drop on top, reducing your window to the end of your turn / beginning of theirs. Sure, you can still cast a spell, then once they top respond by bouncing it, but area you really going to have enough mana left over after spending two cards plus 1UU? What you actually want to do with the card is bounce the Counterbalance before they get a chance to find that 3drop, and that means finding your Wipe Away and three lands before it comes down. To me that means at least 3 of them, but then you start to get to the point where I have to ask if the Doomsday plan isn't just a better use of those slots.

And remember kids, don't be afraid to take a mulligan so that you can Duress them before they can play their hate. The same goes for spending a Lotus Petal on doing that.

[Fossil4182]

Is the fear of Chalice on two the only justification for running Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall? I understand that Rebuild cycles, and in some situations when you're playing draw go, you can drop petals/LEDs and then end of their turn Rebuild so you don't have to discard excess artifact mana. However, the speed of being able to recall for only two mana does seem fairly good. I also don't see Chalice decks running around with a lot of frequency since Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy and MUD are not very popular so I'm wondering if that fear is justified.

[practical joke]

Is the fear of Chalice on two the only justification for running Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall? I understand that Rebuild cycles, and in some situations when you're playing draw go, you can drop petals/LEDs and then end of their turn Rebuild so you don't have to discard excess artifact mana. However, the speed of being able to recall for only two mana does seem fairly good. I also don't see Chalice decks running around with a lot of frequency since Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy and MUD are not very popular so I'm wondering if that fear is justified.

what...if they put chalice at 2, they most likely don't have a chalice on 1.

If they have both, then I don't mind scooping to the stonecold nuts, even in ari's build you could play around it if you just tap5 lands (chrome mox/petals) for an ad nauseam and hope you drop them to their knees with a bunch of 0 mana crap and ill-gotten gains into tendrills.

The point is rebuild isn't there for chalice but for trinisphere, at that point everything costs 3, you might as well play the better one (just in case you have to cycle it).

Sad thing, I dislike it cuz it makes the ad nauseam more horrible again. chain of vapor is fine as it is, just sucks again chalice. but be honest...how often do you see chalice these days (in a non-goblin deck)

[lordofthepit]

I don't like Shattering Spree. You're probably not going to have more than one red mana after you cast the Wish; two if you're lucky and they didn't jump at the chance of finally using their usually-dead Wasteland against you. Other options include Meltdown or Echoing Ruin, or (sigh) Eye of Nowhere. That said, I just don't think wishing for an answer to artifact hate is a realistic plan. You can still win through a Sphere or Chalice, and Deathmark already kills Ethersworn Canonist. Any slots you dedicate to it just seem better suited to being a Hurkyl's/Rebuild for games 2 and 3.

How about Pulverize? My main concern with it is it's not great against a single Trinisphere, and it forces you to run a slightly weaker manabase (I'm trying 2 Volcanics and a Badlands), but it has a powerful effect against artifact hate. Unlike a bounce spell, this is available Game 1 and is accessible exactly when you want it via Wish.

[addaro]

I havent seen it here but found it in the DDFT thread - great videos of this deck in action http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/34898875 I liked these a lot! If MatiasNL is here - thank you so much! Great commentary and you have got nice jokes there :) This is really helpful for all those starting playing storm. The only thing that I didnt like is that he is playing against some stupid players, the online meta seems to not have that much blue tempo as my meta, and that he has some amazing topdecks. But hey, thats life I guess. Congrats and keep em comming!

[egosum]

I' ve never been a huge fan of Grim Tutor for legacy (though I think Ari's list has some strong points), and since playing TES has gave good results when I played it regularly, I ' ve been testing this llist so far, for a very good win ratio. I' m posting it since now seems relevant for the discussion about Burning Wish.

Main 60

Lands 16

4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding tarn
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

Cantrips 12

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Acceleration 16

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Protection 7

4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

Bussiness 9

3x Infernal Tutor
3x Burning Wish
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard 15

4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Wipe Away (or the 2nd Ad Nauseam)

2x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Thoughtseize

The point is that what I enjoyed the most of playing Wishes is that you don't necessarily auto lose to a andom main deck hate bear (such a GSZ --> Gaddock Teeg) and the flexibility it gives you, someitmes even with Doomsday Plan maindeck. I' ve tested Warrens but they are not needed, the deck is not as explosive as TES is and sometimes going for the goblins is simple a bad plan with all those Tempo decks(team america for instance) with EE main deck.

I' ve been considering chopping a cantirp in pro of another fetchland, but with this configuration seems that 16 lands are more than enough for our purpose.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Solar Ice]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Island
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Spells
4 [MPR] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [ARE] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
2 [GPX] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
2 [ST] Grim Tutor
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [B] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [UL] Rebuild

I've been running this list lately, and am quite happy with it. I'm going to try Egosum's list (lost 2-1 to him on MWS, just now). Running BW though means I have to replace Xantid, which have been great (especially vs. Merfolk).

[Malakai]

People, posts where you go "This is my list, and I'm happy with it" are useless. They are doubly useless when all you did over an earlier-mentioned list or an established one is go -1 Land +1 Thoughtseize.


Pulverize is out of the question. You aren't going to play two mountains.

[egosum]

If this is due my post with the, as you said, pretty standard list with the BW, I tried to give a brief explanation with the reasons why I think they are worth the slot in the build. But since I could have been a little short in my answer this is what I would 've post.

After giving Lax Storm a try, and starting with the point that the last Ritual Tendrils deck I' ve played in Legacy was TES (this is to mak you know that obviously is hard not to try to find a comparison), I felt that it has some black points that could be easily solved by splashing a little red for BW.

First of all I' d like to tell what I think are the strongest points of Lax Storm, these are the points I tried not to corrupt by splashing:

-Solid mana base, resilient to wasteland.
-Enough Threat Density.
-Non-dependace on Ad Nauseam (basing an strategy on Ad Nauseam, as primary engine is kind of suicidal in the times we are living. In fact it's always been, but Mystical Tutor was the paste that put the deck together).
-No card disadvantage (this is based on the cut of the Moxen).
-Big amount of high quality cantrips provide early and fast hand sculpting.

What I found that could be improved:

-Grim Tutor is O.K. but not a beast and has too many weaknesses (I have them, I tested them, I' m not talking for budget reasons nor for any kind of fooloish theory). First of All being costy, 3 CC makes that you cannot use it freely to find the pieces you need, if you are in a rush (under pressure if playing against aggro) you normally don't want to tap out in turn 3, lightning bolting you, and pass the turn in order to see what happens if you get your next Upkeep phase. The 3 lifes also make that after a resolved ADN it sucks, same for a Tutor Chain if you need to Chain with one or the 2 Tutors, maybe you can die to a single bolt (or maybe you cannot because you are low on lifes).
-Having access to a single Tendrils of Agony is not always enough, it can lead you to some crappy mulligans and, in occasions, you may be forced to find a Brainstorm so you can crack the LEDs freely (maybe because you are facing a FoW deck and you cannot pass through IGG loop, maybe because you already have the IGG in hand too), this can be told brainstorm dependence.
-The super tight main deck has a big problem dealing with random maindeck answers our opponent can play. With the, minor but still representative in some metas, success of Kuldotha red, and more specially with the growing of the popularity of Green Sun's Zenith in both Zoo and Bant (with most of them play a singleton Gaddock Teeg) makes the storm players to rethink about having some anti hate access in main deck. Obviously one could say that a single Chain of Vapor can seal the deal (can be fetched in an effective way with Grim Tutors, but remember always that effective is not the same as efficient), as I said tapping out turn 3 going for CoV to play it in the next Turn and bolting you, or even worse wasting a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) or a lotus petal to speed this up, therefore leading us to card disadvantage (something that we have to flee when playing this kind of deck)is truly a bad game plan.

So this is why I post the list, I think that a comment about a deck list is better if is coupled with it, I could have wrote something like the list X in the Post Y, but for every reader that do not follow this thread continuously it will be, for sure, more difficult to follow the explanation.

So with Burning Wish I tried to fill all those gaps by simply sacrificing a single basic land, that at least by this time hasn't hurt. Burning Wish also works great with a doomsday sideboard, so, as I said before, you can go for the DD plan in the first game (or in every game although you have not sided them in, this can give you some extra outs, for more information please check all the extensive documentation about making DD piles, read specially those piles that work with a cantrip, not with Sensei's divining top because after testing it it showed suboptimal for our game plan).

Hope this feels like more constructive, or at least less "useless".

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Dia_Bot]

If this is due my post with the, as you said, pretty standard list with the BW, I tried to give a brief explanation with the reasons why I think they are worth the slot in the build. But since I could have been a little short in my answer this is what I would 've post.

After giving Lax Storm a try, and starting with the point that the last Ritual Tendrils deck I' ve played in Legacy was TES (this is to mak you know that obviously is hard not to try to find a comparison), I felt that it has some black points that could be easily solved by splashing a little red for BW.

First of all I' d like to tell what I think are the strongest points of Lax Storm, these are the points I tried not to corrupt by splashing:

-Solid mana base, resilient to wasteland.
-Enough Threat Density.
-Non-dependace on Ad Nauseam (basing an strategy on Ad Nauseam, as primary engine is kind of suicidal in the times we are living. In fact it's always been, but Mystical Tutor was the paste that put the deck together).
-No card disadvantage (this is based on the cut of the Moxen).
-Big amount of high quality cantrips provide early and fast hand sculpting.

What I found that could be improved:

-Grim Tutor is O.K. but not a beast and has too many weaknesses (I have them, I tested them, I' m not talking for budget reasons nor for any kind of fooloish theory). First of All being costy, 3 CC makes that you cannot use it freely to find the pieces you need, if you are in a rush (under pressure if playing against aggro) you normally don't want to tap out in turn 3, lightning bolting you, and pass the turn in order to see what happens if you get your next Upkeep phase. The 3 lifes also make that after a resolved ADN it sucks, same for a Tutor Chain if you need to Chain with one or the 2 Tutors, maybe you can die to a single bolt (or maybe you cannot because you are low on lifes).
-Having access to a single Tendrils of Agony is not always enough, it can lead you to some crappy mulligans and, in occasions, you may be forced to find a Brainstorm so you can crack the LEDs freely (maybe because you are facing a FoW deck and you cannot pass through IGG loop, maybe because you already have the IGG in hand too), this can be told brainstorm dependence.
-The super tight main deck has a big problem dealing with random maindeck answers our opponent can play. With the, minor but still representative in some metas, success of Kuldotha red, and more specially with the growing of the popularity of Green Sun's Zenith in both Zoo and Bant (with most of them play a singleton Gaddock Teeg) makes the storm players to rethink about having some anti hate access in main deck. Obviously one could say that a single Chain of Vapor can seal the deal (can be fetched in an effective way with Grim Tutors, but remember always that effective is not the same as efficient), as I said tapping out turn 3 going for CoV to play it in the next Turn and bolting you, or even worse wasting a Ritual (Dark or Cabal) or a lotus petal to speed this up, therefore leading us to card disadvantage (something that we have to flee when playing this kind of deck)is truly a bad game plan.

So this is why I post the list, I think that a comment about a deck list is better if is coupled with it, I could have wrote something like the list X in the Post Y, but for every reader that do not follow this thread continuously it will be, for sure, more difficult to follow the explanation.

So with Burning Wish I tried to fill all those gaps by simply sacrificing a single basic land, that at least by this time hasn't hurt. Burning Wish also works great with a doomsday sideboard, so, as I said before, you can go for the DD plan in the first game (or in every game although you have not sided them in, this can give you some extra outs, for more information please check all the extensive documentation about making DD piles, read specially those piles that work with a cantrip, not with Sensei's divining top because after testing it it showed suboptimal for our game plan).

Hope this feels like more constructive, or at least less "useless".

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Actually the list looks a lot like the 3C TES created by emidln only with more black rituals and less tutors and red sources.
Do you feel this list is better (suited for the current meta) than the "standard" 3C TES lists?

[egosum]

I think it is. By sacrificing the explosiveness of TES (this is red rituals and EtW, and Moxen, basicaly) you gain a lot of consitancy, Cabal Ritual is a very good card if played with many fetchlands and cantrips, which is the case, I' ve found lately tht the Warrens plan was only super good against merfolk, and they seem like in low profile (this is as I said some posts above due to the large number of EE being played and also because the cantrip lists is not as fast as TES). TES suffered from being color controlled in some occasions (though not too often), while this deck doesn't. Also with tempo growing, the card disadvantage the Moxen brought hurt us badly (card disadvantage is a bad ally in an attrition war). Plus TES doens't have room for the DD plan in the board which I see pretty efficient against CB - Top (and once again the option of DD Storm if needed, I'll post some useful piles specific for this list as soon as I have the time).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[amonchakai]

Wow many thakns from spain iñaki ;)

I´ll waiting for that piles

[egosum]

Well this are the more relevant piles you can do, if needed, with my list (the information is taken from a complete spreadsheet of 357 DD piles made by a user from the Stormboards. I' ve filtered them by cutting the ones that use cards not in my miandeck, note: see that no pile needs any specific card in play, or that require a "Wish-Target" not currently in my sideboard. I also omitted the piles that need a BW in hand since I'm making the assumption that if we had a BW in hand we have used it to fetch for DD.

Non Pass the Turn Piles:

Hand Requirements: BS +2
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 7
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + BS +ToA

Note 1: if the last BS in the pile (i.e. the fourth card) is replaced with IGG, you have the same requirements for 10 Storm Count.
Note 2: if in addition to the IGG change, you change the ToA for a Burning Wish (--> ToA) you have the same requirements for 11 Storm Count.

Hand Requirements: 2xBS + 2
Mana required: U
Storm Count: 8
DD Pile: LP + BS + 2x LED + ToA

Note 1: if the BS in the pile (i.e. the fourth card) is replaced with IGG, you have the same requirements for 11 Storm Count.
Note 2: if in addition to the IGG change, you change the ToA for a Burning Wish (--> ToA) you have the same requirements for 12 Storm Count.
Note 3: all this piles work exactly the same way if your hand is PN + BS +2.

Pass the Turn Piles:


Hand Requirements: IT + 1
Mana required: 1UB
Storm Count: 10
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG +ToA

Note: if the extra card in your hand is PN (i.e. IT + PN) you have the same pile for Storm Count 10 but for only UU as mana requirement.

Hand Requirements: PN + 1
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 9
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG +ToA

Note 1: if the extra card you have in hand is PN (i.e. PN + PN) you have exactly the same pile but for Storm Count of 10.
Note 2: if you replace the ToA for a BW (--> ToA). You have the same pile but for Storm Count of 10. Note that with a hand requirement of PN + PN in this case you'll have a Storm Count of 12.

This is an example of how you can make some modifications in the piles by exchangeing the order of some cards.

Modification of the PN + PN pile (interesting to keep in mind):

Hand Requirements: PN + ToA
Mana required: UU
Storm Count: 10
DD Pile: BS + 2x LED + IGG + PN

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. maybe it's not needed, but here is a Legend:

BS = Brainstorm
PN = Ponder (wherever it says Ponder it can be replaced by Preordain)
BW = Burning Wish
IT = Infernal Tutor
LED = Lion's Eye Diamond
LP = Lotus Petal
IGG = Ill-Gotten Gains
ToA = Tendrils of Agony

[AriLax]

Egosum:

The point about MD hate becoming more prevalent is a real one. The Grim Tutor build really doesn't have a realistic way to change to beat MD hate without sacrificing a significant amount of consistency when you don't want Chain of Vapors. One isn't going to cut it. The deck was designed a for a format where MD hate was completely absent and your goal was to be as consistent against the generic cards (Duress, Force, Daze, Wasteland) as possible. GSZ and the resurgence of Stifle have changed things to the point I'm considering Burning Wish as well.

I haven't had real issues with the single Tendrils yet, it comes up rarely as even against Blue decks if it is in hand you can IGG it back and just play it through a Force or two. Drawing IGG and the Tendrils is an issue, but once I started actually shuffling well after Brainstorms it went away and it mostly a product of laziness and trying to turbo through a game.

[Dia_Bot]

I think it is. By sacrificing the explosiveness of TES (this is red rituals and EtW, and Moxen, basicaly) you gain a lot of consitancy, Cabal Ritual is a very good card if played with many fetchlands and cantrips, which is the case, I' ve found lately tht the Warrens plan was only super good against merfolk, and they seem like in low profile (this is as I said some posts above due to the large number of EE being played and also because the cantrip lists is not as fast as TES). TES suffered from being color controlled in some occasions (though not too often), while this deck doesn't. Also with tempo growing, the card disadvantage the Moxen brought hurt us badly (card disadvantage is a bad ally in an attrition war). Plus TES doens't have room for the DD plan in the board which I see pretty efficient against CB - Top (and once again the option of DD Storm if needed, I'll post some useful piles specific for this list as soon as I have the time).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Thank you for the answer.
One small change I would probably make to the list is the addition of 1 badlands in favor of a swamp.
I've always felt like 3 basic land is enough and I feel more comfortable with 2 (land) red sources.
This is in case one gets destroyed or you want to BW>IT with 1 island 1 other land.

[lordofthepit]

How do you play against TES?

Chant with W open means you can't go off, and even if you force them to discard their Chants, you still have no way of going IGG on them. Setting up a tutor chain for 8-9 storm is unlikely given all the discard involved in the mirror match, so it seems like it comes down to ripping Ad Nauseam (or Dark Confidant, if you run that in the board).

[egosum]

@Arilax: do try it, is working wonders for me, although Spell Snare may hurt the deck, this is why I decided to add the 7th "duress", the 8th is well placed in the board as a wish target (coming to the maindeck in some given matches).

@Dia_Bot: I would only spoil the mana base with another dual if the deck wanted to give extra support to the red splash, i.e. playing pyroclasm instead of Deathmark in the board, for instance. Despite the fact that 3 Basic lands (2x U + 1x B) are enough, by playing extra basic lands (beyond that) makes you more confortable when paired against tempo decks, and since it seems not necessary to add the 2nd red source I'll keep it like this. (9 fetch + volcanic + Petal, and in some situations LED played off cantrip is enough for that small splash). Choosing between Volcanic of Badlands is, I think, a personal choice, I' m not really sure which is correct but since 2 islands are enough for cantripping the first turns playing 2 Swamps seems strong, just in case one get sinkholed or Hym to Tourached away from yourhand, I know these are corner case, but the point is taht 3 Islands are not really needed.

@lordofthepit: pairing against TES is, as most mirror like matches, an attrition game. So disruption is the most relevant part of your deck, just cantrip into it and rip their hand. Also having a second Nauseam in the board increases the winning ratio in this match up (one of the strongest plays you can do in "mirror" is ADN at the end of you ropponent's Turn, once your disruption has made a little job).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[lorddotm]

How do you guys stop a Top floating a Force of Will. Sometimes stripping their hand of all blue spells is just not actually realistic. But this deck can almost never beat that, and I can't imagine how bad it is when there is two Tops and Force+blue card floating. I guess I will accept that and move on.

That being said, I definitely think that Burning Wish is a million times better than Grim Tutor. Although part of me wants to drop a Swamp and an Island for a Volcanic and a Badlands to support Pulverize (which is such an amazing card), but that might make the TA, Merfolk, etc. very, very hard.

[egosum]

If this is the situation, that means taht you are facing an slow pace deck, so just try to rip the hand as much as you can and double bomb them to death. I know it is hard, but beyond this there is no real chance to win a FoW concealed unde a Top.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.D. I' m afrain Pulverize is not needed, and even with 2 red lands it is not that great, sinc eyou 'll need the Pulerize to combat decks taht also pack land disruption (for instance, Kuldotha red, Aggro Loam playing chalice, ...). I'm afraid this deck players won't respect your lands until you can get the 2 mountains together, plus is unreal that you won't show a mountain before having the pulverize in hand, simply because you need burningh wish to find it (obviously you can play BW out of Lotus Petal, but then you may need LP + BW + 2 Fetch uncracked in play, not easy to assemble).

[leegoo]

How do you guys stop a Top floating a Force of Will. Sometimes stripping their hand of all blue spells is just not actually realistic. But this deck can almost never beat that, and I can't imagine how bad it is when there is two Tops and Force+blue card floating. I guess I will accept that and move on.



If we are talking game 1, It requires either stripping their other blue cards (as you said difficult) or putting them in a position where one FoW won't be enough. The *easiest* (not saying it's easy) is to have an IGG AND an Ad Nauseam in hand. You AdN during their turn and put them in a position of either countering it, or letting you draw a bunch (of discard hopefully) OR burning it on the Ad and letting you have IGG.

Of course in that scenario there aren't a ton of outs (in the grim build) but you play what you can.

[AriLax]

How do you guys stop a Top floating a Force of Will. Sometimes stripping their hand of all blue spells is just not actually realistic. But this deck can almost never beat that, and I can't imagine how bad it is when there is two Tops and Force+blue card floating. I guess I will accept that and move on.


Usually I kill them before they set it up, Duress their top, or they go for it after a shuffle and play the odds.

[PhantomLotus]

This NPH card was spoiled this morning on MTGS (yeah, I know). It was in Japanese, so the translation is a little rough, but you get the idea:

"Phyrexian Unlife"
Rare
2W
Enchantment
You do not lose the game for having 0 or less life.
While you are at 0 or less life, all sources deal damage to you as if they had Infect.

Might we see this in a UBw "draw your deck" Storm variant with multiple Ad Nauseam (3 life? Who cares! Keep flipping!)?

[leegoo]

This NPH card was spoiled this morning on MTGS (yeah, I know). It was in Japanese, so the translation is a little rough, but you get the idea:

"Phyrexian Unlife"
Rare
2W
Enchantment
You do not lose the game for having 0 or less life.
While you are at 0 or less life, all sources deal damage to you as if they had Infect.

Might we see this in a UBw "draw your deck" Storm variant with multiple Ad Nauseam (3 life? Who cares! Keep flipping!)?

It seems a bit strong for a 3mana enchantment, of course that doesn't mean much. If real, it seems like it could certainly be a spicy addition

[egosum]

Re-read the text and saw I said a complete silliness.

Can any Mod delete this post.

Thanks,

Iñaki.-

[emidln]

This NPH card was spoiled this morning on MTGS (yeah, I know). It was in Japanese, so the translation is a little rough, but you get the idea:

"Phyrexian Unlife"
Rare
2W
Enchantment
You do not lose the game for having 0 or less life.
While you are at 0 or less life, all sources deal damage to you as if they had Infect.

Might we see this in a UBw "draw your deck" Storm variant with multiple Ad Nauseam (3 life? Who cares! Keep flipping!)?

If someone wanted to do this, they'd just play Angel's Grace. It's two mana less, uncounterable except via CB and Chalice, and pretty useless.

[leegoo]

very true

[Solar Ice]

What do you guys think of Chrome Mox in the deck? Personally, unless I'm casting Ad Nauseum without mana floating, i find it to be a mostly dead card. I'm wondering if it's not a good idea to cut it entirely.. or maybe just leave 1 copy in. Though on the other hand, it does help with Hellbent when I don't have LED.

[leegoo]

What do you guys think of Chrome Mox in the deck? Personally, unless I'm casting Ad Nauseum without mana floating, i find it to be a mostly dead card. I'm wondering if it's not a good idea to cut it entirely.. or maybe just leave 1 copy in. Though on the other hand, it does help with Hellbent when I don't have LED.

I run two, not so much because it's all that good, but because it's (IMO) better than the extra two land. It's also nice to have more than 4 ways to continue comboing if you have to go for AdN without mana floating.

[Malakai]

The builds with two Chrome Mox are designed to go off with Ad Nauseam. Frankly I don't do this a lot.

[lordofthepit]

Main 60

Lands 16

4x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding tarn
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

Cantrips 12

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Acceleration 16

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Protection 7

4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

Bussiness 9

3x Infernal Tutor
3x Burning Wish
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard 15

4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Wipe Away (or the 2nd Ad Nauseam)

2x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Deathmark
1x Meltdown
1x Thoughtseize


Hey, Inaki, do you ever have problems against Merfolk? The reason I ask this is that with slight dependence on red, 1) taxing counters can cut us off colors before you get your ritual effects together (although not as bad as it does for TES) and 2) it becomes harder to support Xantid Swarm which straight up wins the game.

I'm splashing green for Tropical Island main (17th land) and a Reverent Silence plus Xantid Swarms in the sideboard, but I'm trying to decide the merits of going with a more stable manabase that doesn't have those options.

[egosum]

I haven't tested merfolks much, but as long as I ' ve tested I' ve won the rounds (losing some matches). Nevertheless I think this deck if have any trobules agains thte folk is not because of BW, you still have the lotuses to keep going if somethign wrong happens tho the volcanic (that should be concealed until the time yuo need it), But I can think TESmay have better pairing against the blue Tribal deck only because it plays EtW, this is why I adviced to add empty the warrens in the sideboard for a metagme expecting lots of merfolks, the reasonalb eSlot for EtW will be the one actually filled by the Second Ad Nauseam (this is the slot I dedicate to metagame, so depending where it could be ADN, Wipe Away, EtW, 2nd IGG, ...)

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[AriLax]

What does everyone think about the High Tide match up? It seems close from what I've been goldfishing, but I can't tell if it actually is or if my sample set has been biased by lots of MWS hands with basic swamp and a million cantrips.

[JonBarber]

What does everyone think about the High Tide match up? It seems close from what I've been goldfishing, but I can't tell if it actually is or if my sample set has been biased by lots of MWS hands with basic swamp and a million cantrips.

It's a little over 50/50. They are about a turn and a half slower because your disruption is better than theres. In testing is found myself needing to go for adnaus most of the time because it was faster (and because of merchant scroll and 10 cantrips then almost always have a force). You need a turn 3 go off or else your dead.

[Solar Ice]

What does everyone think about the High Tide match up? It seems close from what I've been goldfishing, but I can't tell if it actually is or if my sample set has been biased by lots of MWS hands with basic swamp and a million cantrips.

Played around 6 matches against it on MWS, and won all of them. Overall, I'd say we're favourites. Discard can be crucial though.

[practical joke]

What does everyone think about the High Tide match up? It seems close from what I've been goldfishing, but I can't tell if it actually is or if my sample set has been biased by lots of MWS hands with basic swamp and a million cantrips.

They have 4 force, you have 6-7 duress effects and should be faster in assembling the combo + they have no form of damage to deal to you and besides the 4 force, they have no way to interact.

It should be positive, random screws are there, but I see no reason why we shouldn't win it.

[JonBarber]

They have 4 force, you have 6-7 duress effects and should be faster in assembling the combo + they have no form of damage to deal to you and besides the 4 force, they have no way to interact.

It should be positive, random screws are there, but I see no reason why we shouldn't win it.

Well, they 4 force, 4 merchant scroll, and 10 cantrips (plus the last case scenario cunning wish for pact followed by a high tide to pay for it).

None the less, the proactive duress effects are better than the reactive counterspells in the matchup, and their goldfish is usually turn 4.

[leegoo]

the few times I have played against it they need a pretty stacked hand to win. Usually a single duress is enough to force through the win, as they are fairly light on interaction. In general they are just a bit slower and don't have an "i win" nuts draw to just kill (with protection) on turn 1-2.

That said, I love seeing my opponent on storm when I'm playing Solidarity...

[JamieW89]

I've played it a few times during dailies on Magic Online and it seemed like a positive matchup to me. You have more disruption and if they scroll for forces they're a bit slower than they could be as well. Ad Nauseam from ~17-18 with mana floating usually gets there.

[Neuad]

I dont take very good notes while I'm playing and I have a terrible memory, but I can say I feel my deck is running very smooth and I am happy with it.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [SOM] Island (1)
1 [SOM] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


At a local tournement, 4 rounds, I managed to go 3-1 cut to top 8, and punted game 3 of the top 8 due to inexperience and playing too fast.

Round 1 vs Burn
Basically goldfishing, not much he did to stop me as he mulled to 4 game 1, then kept a 1 land 6 game 2. He did have maindeck Pyroblasts, so I went off without cantripping.

Round 2 vs Big zoo with maindeck Teeg
Game 1 I went off without a hitch, ad Naus got there.
Game 2 he plays turn 2 Teeg, I bounce it EoT with Chain. . .which was probably a mistake. . and then rip the thoughtseize to get rid of it. He gets me down to 3, and I rip a tendrils. My hand was Dark Rit, Cabal Rit, Cabal Rit, Ad Naus, Infernal, Tendrils. Short tendrils him for 8, then ad naus'd with 0 floating and an island untapped. . Got some mana, and a wish to Tendrils him the rest of the way.

Round 3 vs Merfolk
Game 1 - I punt due to miscounting mana, gogog bad hand writing.
Game 2 - He has triple cursecatcher, 2 spellpierces, and 2 forces by turn 3. Not much I could have done.

Round 4 vs NO Bant
Game 1 - Duress away his counters, go off without a hitch, no big deal.
Game 2 - He has pierces out the ass, and NO's for Terastodon and destroys my 3 lands. I scooped um up.
Game 3 - I side in doomsday on a whim, Get a shelldock in play and Emrakul gets him to 4, then Rit Rit Tendrils finishes him off. He didnt have the force.

Top8 vs TA
Game 1 - He didnt know what I was playing, and I knew what he was playing. I keep a turn 3 win. I got it, and Ad Naus gets there.
Game 2 - He has every spellpierce in his opener, and just locks me out of everything, then Hymn and Thoughtseize.
Game 3 - I manage to build up a hand, and Ad Naus with 0 floating, he has a force in hand, Daze + Blue card in GY. This is where my inexperience blows me, and I flip too far with Ad Naus and kill myself. After I lose Ari looks at my hand and Ad Naus pile and tells me where I could have stopped, and how I could have won with Iggy. . .ohwell, gotta learn somehow.

Sorry I dont have exact lines of play I did, I know this is probably useless, but overall I am very happy with the deck. Burning Wish is a great addition, even without the red rits, not very often do I find myself without the 1 red I need, and I've only gone for ETW once, usually it's Wish for Tutor, pass. The versitility of a wish board really does great things for me, with all these people running MD teegs and whatnot.

Also - Burning Wish is a great counter catcher if I don't need it for whatever reason. Fun to go Burning Wish > Counter > Rit Rit Rit Infernal/Ad Naus/Whatever

Edit - My deck list isn't 100% the same as my MWS deck, it's 4 Polluted, 4 Flooded, 1 Misty. It's just the fetches I personally own. I dont know if I would change them, I'm pretty happy with them considering I need to be able to fetch red/blue sometimes, and only have 1 basic swamp. Maybe 2-3 Bloodstained but those are in another deck we use for play testing, and I'm lazy and it hasnt screwed me out of a game yet.

[AriLax]

Played in the same local. I've basically determined the UW Counterbalance matchup is actually reasonably awkward to Doomsday as they can tutor up Needle. It might just be better to stay Ad Naus and try to fight them that way if they don't board very heavily. Also, this whole losing to G1 Gaddock Teeg thing can be obnoxious. I'm not actually sure that Wish is good enough though, and really don't want to switch to Doomsdays.

[egosum]

For all those whe are not sold on the Idea of packing DD, because whether your metagame is full of needle (specially CB decks there) or just because changing the plan seems bad for you and you don't like to have DD as a Wish target. I' ve been also testing an alternate sideboard for the deck with green splash:

-4x Doomsday
-1x Emrakul
-1x Shelldock Isle

+1x Tropical Island
+1x Reverent Silence (Wish Target)
+2x Krosan Grip (can be 1+1 Wipe Away, not sure what' s better).
+1x Echoing Truth
+1x Empty the Warrens (not sure about this but since the board has more room it can be useful in given situations)

The main concern of having a DD --> Emrakul side plan is that it eats a lot of space and you are losing cards to deal with enchantments (just the 2x Chain of Vapor and no wish Target), so changing to this side you will increase the chances of overcoming Leyline of Sanctity and Pyrosatatic Pillar is this is the hate you face in your meta. Also Still have nice options against CB-Top with the Krosna Grips and the Reverent Silence as a Wish target.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[lordofthepit]

For all those whe are not sold on the Idea of packing DD, because whether your metagame is full of needle (specially CB decks there) or just because changing the plan seems bad for you and you don't like to have DD as a Wish target. I' ve been also testing an alternate sideboard for the deck with green splash:

-4x Doomsday
-1x Emrakul
-1x Shelldock Isle

+1x Tropical Island
+1x Reverent Silence (Wish Target)
+2x Krosan Grip (can be 1+1 Wipe Away, not sure what' s better).
+1x Echoing Truth
+1x Empty the Warrens (not sure about this but since the board has more room it can be useful in given situations)


I've been goldfish testing with the green splash. I think you're sometimes going to want to wish for Reverent Silence in game 1 before you can put Tropical Island in, so it makes more sense to me to have that maindeck. That comes at the cost of a less stable manabase, but I run Trop as the 17th land whereas you have 16 (so I'm also cutting the 3rd Thoughtseize).

[mich]

What I really dislike about burning wish is that it completely screws our sideboard - there is no more room for xantid swarms(and I don't like plaing more than 3 colours in this deck as one of the main reasons to play ANT over TES is its consistency and resiliance to wasteland) wich I'd really hate to drop, as they're basically gg against merfolk and help with some other difficult matchups like TA. Thus recently I'm testing build with Doomsdays maindeck, my list is slightly modified UBg Lax Storm:

Lands 16

4x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou

Cantrips 12

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
2x Preordain
2x Sensei's Divining Top

Acceleration 15

4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Protection 6

4x Duress
2x Thoughtseize

Bussiness 10

4x Infernal Tutor
3x Doomsday
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard

4x Xantid Swarm
1x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Shelldock Isle
1x Deathmark
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
3x open slots

Running Doomsdays maindeck opens up three additional slots in the sideboard, and by squeezing single chain of vapor somwhere in the maindeck you could go off g1 with Gaddock Teeg on the board. It allows to go off with few cards in hand while low on life, wich might not be otherwise possible (when you can't go for Iggy becouse they have force in graveyard/not enough storm count and Ad Nauseam would kill you), as well as allowing to mini-tendrils your oponnent several times in one game (does'nt come up very often, but still) as Doomsday shuffles back your grave. It also allows you to go off turn 2 more often than Burning Wish and if you go for Ad Nauseam, Doomsday is just a slighly worse Grim Tutor that requires +1 mana and cantrip, with the possibilty to generate 10 +storm off itself.

It all however comes at a price, as the decks average CMC becomes slightly highier making Ad Nauseum a bit worse, and in order to make full use of Doomsday you need to play some otherwise clunky cards like Ideas Unbound and Sensei's Divining Top - I have really mixed feeling about sensei in this deck; you need at least one for DD piles, and going off with DD is sooo much easier when you have sensei in play, sometimimes its great if you failed to go off turn 1-2 and you're trying to sculpt a perfect hand against standstill or plaing in a topdeck mode agains hymn to tourach deck, but there are also times I just wish it was preordain, wich would make me go off so much faster.. Another issue is that while playing with Grim Tutor/Burning Wish you can use all your cantrips asap, to dig for more action, while with Doomsday you always have to keep in mind, that you need at least one cantrip in hand(or sensei in play) to go off, having a hand full of rituals and plaing your single cantrip just to find Doomsday and no other cantrip on the top of your deck could be awkward.

Having said that, the list still works quite well for me, and though it definetely requires some tweaking, I encourage everyone to give it a try.

[emidln]

You missed the biggest reason to play Doomsday right now: tutorable maindeck Chain of Vapor.

Ideas Unbound is significantly worse than Meditate in a deck chock full of black rituals. This has been documented pretty well on storm boards fwiw.

Doomsday requires 4 SDT to operate when your primary plan is Tendrils of Agony. SDT is the best draw spell for the card, and often lets you sidestep IGG completely by going IT->DD, DD, SDT->Meditate.

While I really like playing DDFT (and would advocate it right now to anyone who asked me), it is extremely difficult to run it alongside Ad Nauseam right now. With a much higher average CMC and a higher variance, Ad Nauseam becomes fairly bad. Some people solved this by playing less than 4 (2 in his case) Infernal Tutors, so you ended up with a business configuration that was something like: 2 IT, 4 DD, 1 AdN, 1 Meditate but even then you're severely starved for initial mana. Being low on initial mana makes the 12 cantrips the deck wants to run worse since you're taking damage from stuff that is essentially dead (unlike TES, which can often cast Brainstorm/Ponder to dig deeper).

[mich]

I mentioned possibilty of maindeck chain of vapor, I'm just currently not running it becouse it is not needed in my local meta. I do realize that Ad Nauseam is significantly worse in this deck than in TES, and going off through Ad Nauseam is always the worst case scenario becouse of variance, but the raw power of this card still makes me want to play it, in fact I started off with the DDFT list, but I was often facing situations when I wished I had an additional out in the form of Ad Nauseam. And while casting AN in this deck without mana in pool is a suicide, just 1 mana floating and a land drop usually gets there. The average CMC isn't that much highier than in standard Lax Storm lists.
I chose to run Ideas Unbound over Meditate even though getting UU is more difficult, asI can at least cast it for some value if I happen to draw it, where Meditate was always a dead card in my hand, unless I also had Doomsday.

As to Sensei - I started with 4 in my list(replacing all preordains) and decided to cut them, while it is absolutely best card to go with DD, its usually mediocore without it, chaining tutors into tendrils is still the primary route to victory with this deck and I feel that preordain supports this strategy much better. I might hower come to a different conlusion after even more testing :P as I realize you have much more experiance with the deck than I do. Btw. thx for the primer on DD piles, I found really helpful a while ago when I decided to pick this deck!

[egosum]

I've been goldfish testing with the green splash. I think you're sometimes going to want to wish for Reverent Silence in game 1 before you can put Tropical Island in, so it makes more sense to me to have that maindeck. That comes at the cost of a less stable manabase, but I run Trop as the 17th land whereas you have 16 (so I'm also cutting the 3rd Thoughtseize).

I can see the point, but you will only want Reverent Silence against CB-Top (even maindeck), tehre are no other decks that play maindeck enchantments that can put us in a difficult situation, period. I' ve thought on taht a lot and, in fact, I ' ve added the 3rd Thoughtseize cutting the lands 17 from the original build. The idea is that having more discard maindeck you are powering your ratio against any blue deck (included CB-Top), and with access to Reverent silence you are only having an extra tool against CB. Nevertheless, despite it is too costy, I know, you can always BW -- Reverent Silence and Pay it with Lotus Petal, I know this is very desperate but modern CB decks have an Ice-colc clock, so maybe we can set it for the win without Green sources. The other option is to cut another basic Island, but this is no negotiable I guess.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[leegoo]

I can see the point, but you will only want Reverent Silence against CB-Top (even maindeck), tehre are no other decks that play maindeck enchantments that can put us in a difficult situation, period.


Well... depending on whether you consider Enchantress a real deck or not...

Still, I'd probably leave the Tropical in the board.

[egosum]

Enchantress is, of course, a real deck, but not a real contender for Storm decks, unles they have the Goddest hand.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[practical joke]

Enchantress is, of course, a real deck, but not a real contender for Storm decks, unles they have the Goddest hand.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

even then, it's doable to win. because none of their enchantments are a threat.

If you ad nauseam at Turn 3 of 4 and flip a few mana and some chains, you can bounce everything relevant.
A friend tried it against me.

T1 3x leyline of sanctity, T2 pro-enchantment, T3 runed halo.
Resp. bounce the enchantment.
Cast Ad nauseam, make tons of mana,tutor for second chain, bounce 2 more enchantments, make more mana ill-gotten gains into 2x chain, 1x tutor into tendrills.

easy :)

[AriLax]

even then, it's doable to win. because none of their enchantments are a threat.

If you ad nauseam at Turn 3 of 4 and flip a few mana and some chains, you can bounce everything relevant.
A friend tried it against me.

T1 3x leyline of sanctity, T2 pro-enchantment, T3 runed halo.
Resp. bounce the enchantment.
Cast Ad nauseam, make tons of mana,tutor for second chain, bounce 2 more enchantments, make more mana ill-gotten gains into 2x chain, 1x tutor into tendrills.

easy :)

Also, you can just Emrakul them. That always works.

[rnightingale]

Hi Ari,

Can i get some pointers on crafting my Doomsday-Shelldock-Emrakul ? :)

I don't know how to make a good pile on different situations...

(i can't find your primer(s) or guide )

Thanks!

[practical joke]

Hi Ari,

Can i get some pointers on crafting my Doomsday-Shelldock-Emrakul ? :)

I don't know how to make a good pile on different situations...

(i can't find your primer(s) or guide )

Thanks!

not that hard really and really is situation dependant..but the basics are:

emrakul, (place 4 or so)
shelldock, (on top or second, depends on if you are expecting a clique, if so, brainstorm on top)

in case of going through your library, doomsday on the bottom (to make a new library)

you'll have 2 -3 open slots, these could be: trickbind (in case of oddities, mostly not needed), chain of vapor, duress.

I think situations speak for themselves, no primer needed.