[Deck] Les Mise

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, the idea's pretty simple. Ad Nauseum-Tendrils storm with a free creature engine, fueling Phyrexian Tower, Culling the Weak, Cabal Therapy, and Plunge into Darkness.


4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak

4x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
2x Crimson Kobolds
4x Blood Pet/Kobolds of Kher Keep

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Ad Nauseum
3x Plunge into Darkness
3x Duress

3x Tendrils of Agony

2x Phyrexian Tower
7x Swamp

SB:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Yixlid Jailer
3x Tomb of Urami

The conversional sideboard is an idea I'm trying out. If I ditched it, Duress would probably become Pact of Negation, but Duress isn't dead after the swap out. This is still in the very developmental phase, and it still has some problems with control. Thoughts?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Yes, 4x AdN and 3x ToA = no more drawing for you. Ever. Dark Confidant also feels bad with 4 AdN and Tendrils.

I'd run Diabolic Intents in place of some of the high cc spells.

[morgan_coke]

why ornithopter/kobolds over shield sphere? The higher toughness will occasionally have relevance.

I think leaving out pact for duress is bad times. even after the swap, you can use pact to save a negator from a swords on the turn it kills or something.

[Jak]

why ornithopter/kobolds over shield sphere? The higher toughness will occasionally have relevance.

I think leaving out pact for duress is bad times. even after the swap, you can use pact to save a negator from a swords on the turn it kills or something.

Kobolds can go on Mox.

[raharu]

What is the purpose of the Jailers in the SB. Also, I agree with Dark_Cynic87. Too many high CC cards.

[morgan_coke]

The jailer's are for ichoridness I think, and also because unlike leyline, they won't prevent you from going off, though i think in this deck, they'd be better served as tormod's crypts, but i understand the point with the manplan-ness.

Also, the deck isn't high cc.

There are 4x nauseum, because that's like, all of your draw, then 3x tendrils, so you can like win and stuff. plunge and cab. rit are the only other cards in the deck that cost more than one. What high cc card is supposed to be cut here? The risk level on this is comparable to that on ... ah crap, can't remember name, 1cc tutor, remove top 6 or 10 cards from the game.. whatever, less than the risk on that card.

I would however recommend -4 dudes, -6 swamp, +4 polluted delta, +4 mystical tutor, + 1 island, +1 underground sea. I know plunge works as a backup plan for finding nauseaum, but plunge costs life even with the gain from saccing dudes, and having 11 ways to find your "i win" card rather than 7 seems like good times.

this would also allow some blue bounce in the board if you end up abandoning the man plan.

[raharu]

The jailer's are for ichoridness I think, and also because unlike leyline, they won't prevent you from going off, though i think in this deck, they'd be better served as tormod's crypts, but i understand the point with the manplan-ness.

Also, the deck isn't high cc.

There are 4x nauseum, because that's like, all of your draw, then 3x tendrils, so you can like win and stuff. plunge and cab. rit are the only other cards in the deck that cost more than one. What high cc card is supposed to be cut here? The risk level on this is comparable to that on ... ah crap, can't remember name, 1cc tutor, remove top 6 or 10 cards from the game.. whatever, less than the risk on that card.

I would however recommend -4 dudes, -6 swamp, +4 polluted delta, +4 mystical tutor, + 1 island, +1 underground sea. I know plunge works as a backup plan for finding nauseaum, but plunge costs life even with the gain from saccing dudes, and having 11 ways to find your "i win" card rather than 7 seems like good times.

this would also allow some blue bounce in the board if you end up abandoning the man plan.
Since you're adding blue, what about Lim-Dul's Vault in place of Plunge?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

But that's not neatly synergistic.

Likely better, though.

[MTG Guru]

Kobolds can go on Mox.

I found a statement from one of the lamest people on this website and he said the same thing like a year ago.


I Run Kobolds so that I can imprint them onto a Chrome Mox so I can cast either a Wild Cantor if need be or a Sudden Shock in the SB.


I find this extremely hilarious.

[raharu]

But that's not neatly synergistic.

Likely better, though.
Yeah :rolleyes: Back when I was thinking about playing SI I wanted to play Plunge in a Bu shell with extra robots but couldn't justify it. You still have the nice Tower and Culling interactions. On that note, have you considered Diabolic Intent? Something like this, perhaps:

4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak

4x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
2x Crimson Kobolds
4x Blood Pet/Kobolds of Kher Keep

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Ad Nauseum

3x Duress

3x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Diabolic Intent/ Mystical Tutor (iDunno, it seems like Mystical is a better set-up card, but Intent is better mid-combo and allows you to go off on your first turn if you didn't start with Ad Nauseam in hand. Would one of these be better at a Vault?)

2x Tendrils of Agony

2x Phyrexian Tower
7x Swamp

Only a few cards off, but there are 3 fewer cards you don't want to Ad Nauseam into, which is relevant.

[MTG Guru]

@IBA - I've tested City of Traitors in Ad Nauseum combo, and it's just too good to pass up on. It's proven to be amazing for the deck and accelerates 1st and 2nd turn kills. I see that you run phyrexian tower, so you may not need it. But I just wanted to point out how powerful City of Traitors would be in this sort of deck.

[Jak]

I found a statement from one of the lamest people on this website and he said the same thing like a year ago.



I find this extremely hilarious.

Well, I guess Cavius had one thing right. If you run Chrome Mox, Kobolds are better than artifact creatures.

Edit- You joined a month ago. You really don't need to call Cavius lame to get liked if you didn't even know him.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Plunge is decently synergystic with all the men you run. Please don't splash blue. It's unnecessary, and Plunge is almost = to LDV.

4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak

4x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
3x Crimson Kobolds
3x Crookshank Kobolds

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Ad Nauseum

3x Duress

2x Plunge into Darkness
4x Diabolic Intent
2x Tendrils of Agony

2x Phyrexian Tower
7x Swamp

I like that a bit better.

Pce,

--DC

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd rather run Mystical Tutor, to be honest, for the same reason I'd run Duress or Therapy over Thoughtseize, and Gemstone Mine over Fetchlands. Every point of life loss makes Ad Nauseum a little bit worse. I'd rather let my opponent be the one focusing on lowering my life.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Then:

-4 Swamp
-2 Plunge

+4 Gemstone Mine
+2 Mystical Tutor

?

I don't see more than 2 being necessary...Maybe -1 Intent for a 3rd, but I wouldn't run more than that...

[morgan_coke]

I'd like to second the votes for Diabolic Intent as a secondary tutor. It utilizes a resource you have a lot of (dudes) and puts the needed card directly into your hand.

[Illissius]

Is Diabolic Intent really any good? The only memories I have of the card in any format are of it sucking pretty badly, so I'm sceptical to say the least.

[sunshine]

It seems like 3x Duress might not be enough. I agree that some sort of proactive distruption is needed but I think you would want at least 3 more slots dedicated to protection. Right now I'm testing 3x Duress and 4x Pact of Negation. Also it might be worth considering what the game plan is against a resolved Trinisphere, Chalice@1, Gaddock Teeg, Mage/Runed Halo -> Tendrils etc. The nice thing is you really only have to dedicate a minimal number of spots for dealing with problem permanents that have resolved since you can Just play AdN and draw into them. Initial thought is Chain of Vapor if you're running the blue splash, just due to its low casting cost.

[Zinch]

It seems like 3x Duress might not be enough. I agree that some sort of proactive distruption is needed but I think you would want at least 3 more slots dedicated to protection. Right now I'm testing 3x Duress and 4x Pact of Negation. Also it might be worth considering what the game plan is against a resolved Trinisphere, Chalice@1, Gaddock Teeg, Mage/Runed Halo -> Tendrils etc. The nice thing is you really only have to dedicate a minimal number of spots for dealing with problem permanents that have resolved since you can Just play AdN and draw into them. Initial thought is Chain of Vapor if you're running the blue splash, just due to its low casting cost.

There's also the therapies... that are awesome with the free guys

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So, -7 Swamp, +4 Underground Sea, +3 Gemstone Mine. -3 Plunge, +3 Mystical Tutor. If it's worth running a bounce spell maindeck, maybe -3 Duress, +2 Echoing Truth, +1 Mystical Tutor (bringing it up to 4)?

Raises the CMC, but an answer to CB/Chalice would be keen.

[Nihil Credo]

Raises the CMC, but an answer to CB/Chalice would be keen.
Repeal? CMC 1 and if needed can give you +2 storm for U (or a card in the case of Chrome Mox). Main drawback is it doesn't hit Chalice@1, but I think you are more afraid of 0.

[blacklotus3636]

Since we arent running LED, I think it might be a good idea to seriously consider pact of negation over duress. I admit that pact is not better than therapy but it may be better than duress. Duress allows you to look at thier hand and take anything you want that could cause problems whereas pact is free but doesn't allow you to look at thier hand. Duress may have the edge but it would be nice to find a home for a card that seems like it should be so much better. If duress is your second protection spell alongside therapy I doubt you will need a third.

As for tutors, I kind of feel like there should be more. At this point without a mystical or ad nauseum in your hand things would be slow going. Diabolic intent and/or grim tutor/ infernal tutor would be nice. Each has its weaknesses but tutors help find ad nauseum or potential answers you want to run like echoing truth. If you decide on using duress over pact then you could put LED's back in and it would make infernal alot stronger plus with the discard you run it wouldn't be as risky to run LED as it is in other combo decks.

[Illissius]

Pact of Negation has the unfortunate side effect that if you use it to stop a Counterbalance in the early turns, it makes you lose the game.

Duress doesn't have this defect.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, Duress produces B on a Mox. Minor, but another point in it's favor. It also makes Therapy stronger.

Also, I'll fess up, I just forgot Shield Sphere. I'd run 4x Shield Sphere, 4x Walker, 2x Ornithopter then. Anything that can block a Lackey and not die. Seems more important than the Mox interaction.

[blacklotus3636]

I've been working on a list of my own with the man plan. Here's what I've come up with so far:

Mana

4 dark ritual
4 culling the weak
4 lotus petal
4 lions eye diamond
4 gemstone mine
4 underground sea
2 phyrexian tower

Tutors

4 mystical tutor
4 infernal tutor

Protection

4 cabal therapy
4 duress

Win

4 ad nauseum
2 tendrils of agony

Creatures

4 shield sphere
4 blood pet

Other

4 anything

With 26 pieces of mana or mana acceleration, I think you could add some more but I don't think its really necessary. You have 14 starting mana sources which would give you almost a 1/4 shot to draw one every time which should be enough to get LED, culling and dark ritual online.

I felt there should be at least 1 ad nauseum or tutor in your opening hand so that means I would need 8-12 tutors and 4 ad nauseum. The strongest tutors you have access to are mystical tutor, infernal tutor, diabolic intent and plunge into darkness. There are other tutors that cost 3 mana but I thought it was too expensive for a tutor. Of the other tutors I felt infernal + LED was too strong to ignore plus it is possible to play out an entire hand of mana and creatures and tutor for an ad nauseum. As I see it mystical tutor is arguably the strongest tutor for this deck. It may be a bit slow but being able to pick up anything you need for U is amazing. Its interaction with LED means its not as stellar as it could be but still better than diabolic intent which costs twice as much and a creature to work. With 8 tutors and 4 ad nauseum you have a 1/4 shot of drawing somthing that wins you the game which should be enough.

I went back and forth on the protection. At one point I considered orim's chant because of its usefulness in other tendrils decks but when you think about it, it costs off color mana will only stop 1 counterspell and won't let you see what your opponent is working with. With duress and therapy you get to either force them to counter or you get to take a card away and see if its ok to go off or how much time you have to go off. Plus duress and therapy are on color and have very good synergy. The biggest advantage to me is that with duress/therapy you don't have to play poker with them to see if they have force. Superiority of knowledge is most important in control-combo matchups which is your biggest problem.

I thought about how many tendrils to add but since you'll really only be casting tendrils after ad nauseum and effectively won you could easily cut it to 1 but thats a little too balzy to me. 2 tendrils is a basic necessity to make sure you don't lose post ad nauseum just because you didn't have a tendrils copy to tutor for.

I may be wrong on this but I've build creature based tendrils decks before and the hardest number to get right is the creature count. When you get too many, its irritating because you arent drawing anything and when you get too few it sucks because you cant use key spells. I use a 1 for 1 policy. For every card I need that requires a creature I add a creature. Having 4 cabal therapy and 4 culling the weak means my creature reliance is minimal since creatures only make therapy better but not necessary. That makes culling your only true creature dependant spell but still light years better than cabal ritual which usually doesn't have threshold until its irrelevant to your success. I chose shield sphere because it has the best blocking potential for its mana cost and blood pet makes sense for mana storage. I suppose phyrexian walker could go in the spot but I'm gambling that mana storage may be a tiny bit more relevant than blocking a 2 power creature and living. Time will tell I suppose

As for the open slots, I didn't feel I really needed any additional mana, tutors, win cons or creatures so I wasn't sure what to do with it. I thought about extra protection but duress/therapy should be enough for spells that cause problems and thought it might be best to dedicate the open slots to permenant based threats. I thought the idea of repeal was nice because it could always be useful as a cantrip but it could make bouncing certain permenants difficult. Echoing truth has been the standard and would be better at bouncing permenants but less utilitarian overall. I think if I ran echoing truth I would run it as a tutor target whereas if I ran repeal I might run it as a 4 of because that way you can just deal with problem permenants at will and it would never be a dead draw. At this point I'm leaning towards repeal because the idea of running as much disruption and removal as aggro control and some control decks in a combo deck seems hot to me.
The sideboard is never set because each region and tournament is different and tailored for that situation

I admit the post is a little long but concise organization of thought is important. Thoughts?

[morgan_coke]

by your formula you need two more creatures because phyrexian tower w/no critter is a sad man.

I strongly dislike LED/Infernal in this deck. Mostly because it's absolutely useless post nauseaum, whereas intent/c. rit in those slots can acccomplish all sorts of goodness.

[blacklotus3636]

by your formula you need two more creatures because phyrexian tower w/no critter is a sad man.

I strongly dislike LED/Infernal in this deck. Mostly because it's absolutely useless post nauseaum, whereas intent/c. rit in those slots can acccomplish all sorts of goodness.

post nauseum is unimportant because you should be able to win with ease after drawing 15 cards or so and intent is just bluntly inferior to infernal. Pre-nauseum is all that matters because any decent built nauseum deck should be able to win after that. As for tower, I kind of just threw that in there because it looked good in previous lists for creatures that weren't being useful but you could easily switch that out with another land of some kind.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Right...You're mad as a hatter.

Post-Nauseam is way more important than pre-Nauseam, besides, how do you use it pre? You have to play Ad Nauseam first. So it is useless in that aspect unless you are tutoring for it, and in that case it's during your main-phase, making it's instant-speed ability useless. USELESS. It would behoove you to Go Rit, Rit (or land, land, land, Rit), Ad Nauseam EoT. It's only 3x storm count at the most but just 2x with your best-case scenario of Land, Land, Land, Rit, AdN, and that seems like an acceptable loss since you will get Nauseam draws and then another free one from your draw step. Land, Land, Land, Rit seems to be the best route (unless it's turn 1/2 and you have Duressed for the go-ahead) since a counter only means a 1 for 1 if it's a force, and at worst a 2-for-1. Rit, Rit, Ad = 3 for 1 or 3 for 2, which sux.

I think your list just isn't running enough men. Go up to 10 or 12 and try Intent. It's exactly the same as Demonic, only can be run as a 4-of. Versatility is key, and LED+Infernal doesn't exactly scream versatility. That MAKES you go IGG, and that is another 4cmc card that you don't want, especially since you wouldn't want to draw it. It's needed to be tutored for if you play LED and IGG. IGG in your hand = no combo for you.

Pce,

--DC

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

LED-Infernal Tutor is crap because neither card is good on it's own. The only other thing I could LED in response to would be AN, which is unnecessary, and Infernal Tutor is almost strictly worse than Urza's Bauble by itself.

I also haven't had any problems with finding AN with 4-of and 4-of Mystical Tutor.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I also haven't had any problems with finding AN with 4-of and 4-of Mystical Tutor.

4-of what?!?!?

Seriously, the suspense is killing me...

EDIT: Did you mean 4x AdN? Now you are the crazy one...

[Hanni]

This deck should really utilize Intuition. Intuition can grab 3 Cabal Therapies, and allow you to rip the opponent's hand apart with the 0cc creatures before you combo off with AdN. It also thins out the amount of copies of AdN for larger draws off of AdN.

I'd recommend 4 Mystical Tutor and 4 Intuition as the decks tutor engine. Albeit it forces you into blue some, I think it's worth it. Toss in 4 Brainstorm and you're good to go.

[ACME_Myst]

Except that when you find AdN without Intuition, you've just screwed up your average CMC completely by adding 4 3CC cards.

[Hanni]

Except when you hit Intuition post AdN, you will most likely be able to cast accelerants to allow you to cast Intuition for 3 AdN and continue to draw, thinning the deck out of AdN's. It's not that hard to draw 5-7 cards and be able to cast an Intuition to continue the chain.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Honestly, is anyone really having that much trouble finding AN with 8x copies (including M Tutor) in the deck?

[Hanni]

Considering that AdN is your win card, having 12 ways to get one increases the likelihood of finding one and casting one. This can increase the goldfish an entire turn.

I still don't follow you with most of your crticisms against IT/LED, though since this deck is already plagued with 2 card combos because of the SI-style manplan, another 2 card combo probably drops the decks consistency down too much in this specific AdN shell.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Except when you hit Intuition post AdN, you will most likely be able to cast accelerants to allow you to cast Intuition for 3 AdN and continue to draw, thinning the deck out of AdN's. It's not that hard to draw 5-7 cards and be able to cast an Intuition to continue the chain.

So you are saying, go AdN, draw, draw, draw, hit intuition, stop the chain. Intuition into AdN x3, play another AdN? Outrageous.

AdN Eo opponents T.

Cost: Land, Land, Land, Rit, or Land, D Rit, D Rit, AdN.
AdN into ??? what, AdN, Intuition, Tendrils and acceleration mix?

AdN: 4x
Tendrils: 2x (would you run 3x so as to intuition into them?)
Intuition: 4x (3x maybe?)

Anyway, that's 10 spells, 11 max that are 3, 4, and 5 cc. Scary to say the least.

Anyway, Intuiiton is a 3cmc card. If it's your first card to flip, what do you do?

This seems too situational. No, I like it without the Intuitions.

M. Tutor >>>>>>>>> Intuition.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT: Also, what if you hit an AdN before you hit Intuition? That seems like a crapshoot. This scenario basically just negated 4 cards in your deck, and also just became a major liability--flipping one is the equivelant of your opponent Lightning Bolting you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Considering that AdN is your win card, having 12 ways to get one increases the likelihood of finding one and casting one.

Well no shit. I could also run 40 ways of finding it, but then I wouldn't have much room for the actual combo or protection. The point is that 8 is already quite a large number to be running. It shouldn't be difficult to find a copy.


This can increase the goldfish an entire turn.

This isn't true. It doesn't even apply in this context. You're not even considering what else you might be running in this slot, or the added life cost of flipping it.


I still don't follow you with most of your crticisms against IT/LED, though since this deck is already plagued with 2 card combos because of the SI-style manplan, another 2 card combo probably drops the decks consistency down too much in this specific AdN shell.

I'm sure you can figure out the difference between a 10 card/10 card combo and a 4/4 combo on your own.

[Brehn]

Wait. Are you really talking about Intuition here? The card that was dropped from Iggy Pop because it sucked? You're way more balls to the walls combo than Iggy Pop ever was. When do you plan on goldfishing? What do you do against Extirpate? Intuition for 3 Cabal Therapies is the cutest thing I've ever heard of. Sure, you'll get rid of your opponent's counters. But if they have any pressure on the table, how low on life will you get?

1) This archetype needs a fast goldfish because it can be neutered by quick damage. Intuition as a 3cc card is counterintuitive here.
2) A nice property, if not the most important one, of Ad Nauseam is its ability of circumventing graveyard hate. Intuition as an Extirpate enabler is counterintuitive here.
3) Ad Nauseam requires a low curve. Intuition as a 3cc card is counterintuitive here.


Except when you hit Intuition post AdN, you will most likely be able to cast accelerants to allow you to cast Intuition for 3 AdN and continue to draw, thinning the deck out of AdN's. It's not that hard to draw 5-7 cards and be able to cast an Intuition to continue the chain.

This also requires 5UBB post AdN. In order to have 5UBB available post-AdN you have to draw more than 5-7 cards. I doubt you've ever really tested that.

[Hanni]

I kinda thought creatures like Shield Sphere negated some of the opponent's aggro. It's not uncommon to goldfish turn 3-4 using Intuition to grab 3 Therapies. The deck still has turn 1-2 goldfish capabilites, but Cabal Therapy lets the deck shift into slowplay to handle heavy disruption. It makes the deck feel like it's running more discard than it actually is, since you run 7 discard, Mystical Tutor, and Intuition. Being 3cc is its biggest draw, which can be mitigated by grabbing 3 AdN's.

Maybe it's not a good card in this deck, it was merely a suggestion. I still think it's worth trying, though.

For those that still aren't running 4 Mystical Tutor, you need to. Mystical Tutor is the best Tutor the deck has for grabbing AdN.

[Dark_Cynic87]

This is a tad off-topic, but I've been fooling around with every list that's trying to take advantage of AdN's exteme brokeness, and I have to say so far, I think Les Mise is the one that's closest to being on-target. Intuition is useless. Let's stop talking about it.

[ssilver]

Funny thing is, most of the deck would be pretty cheap to build if you go mono-black... this could cause combo to become more played (as long as ad nauseum doesn't hit the high range of cost which it probably will).

Side note: Is Ad Nauseum a play on the latin Ad Nauseam? I looked up the name for kicks and this is what I found:

Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe an argument that has been continued to the point of nausea. (wikipedia)

[URABAHN]

Funny thing is, most of the deck would be pretty cheap to build if you go mono-black... this could cause combo to become more played (as long as ad nauseum doesn't hit the high range of cost which it probably will).

Side note: Is Ad Nauseum a play on the latin Ad Nauseam? I looked up the name for kicks and this is what I found:

Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe an argument that has been continued to the point of nausea. (wikipedia)

Ad Nauseum - INCORRECT

Ad Nauseam - CORRECT

That's the difference.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mystical Tutor is good enough that I'm also trying to fit 2x Personal Tutor in now. I'm not sure what to cut, although Blood Pet's looking pretty mediocre.

[Deep6er]

Isn't Personal Tutor's inability to find Ad Nauseam a bit of a downside?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Shut it. I read cards good.

Yeah, I already cut it. Actually, after testing, I realized it's easier to just run Burning Wish.

New list:


4x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Phyrexian Tower

12x Kobolds (Booo. But they make Burning Wish a lot better with the Chrome Mox interaction)

4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress

1x Tendrils of Agony

1x Ad Nauseum
4x Burning Wish
4x Mystical Tutor

Burning Wish lets you socialize the CC of the deck; it doesn't lower it that much overall, but reduces greatly the number of Ad Nauseum-Tendrils strings that sometimes break your combo. It also gives you a lot of sideboard options and answers. I'm pleased with it so far, but haven't done enough testing to validate it conclusively.

[Alfred]

Shut it. I read cards good.

Yeah, I already cut it. Actually, after testing, I realized it's easier to just run Burning Wish.

New list:


4x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Phyrexian Tower

12x Kobolds (Booo. But they make Burning Wish a lot better with the Chrome Mox interaction)

4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress

1x Tendrils of Agony

1x Ad Nauseum
4x Burning Wish
4x Mystical Tutor

Burning Wish lets you socialize the CC of the deck; it doesn't lower it that much overall, but reduces greatly the number of Ad Nauseum-Tendrils strings that sometimes break your combo. It also gives you a lot of sideboard options and answers. I'm pleased with it so far, but haven't done enough testing to validate it conclusively.

Burning Wish can't get Ad Nauseam!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Goddammit. Why do I keep thinking that card's a sorcery? Life would be so much simpler...

Shit. Back to the drawing board.

Actually, increasingly, Plunge is looking set to make a comeback. Having another way to recoup life seems pretty valuable against aggressive decks.

[MTG Guru]

Tutors I might consider besides Plunge include Desperate Research and Tainted Pact. Not sure if they'll be any good but it's worth testing, especially Desperate Research.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Burning Wish doesn't NEED to get AdN. You run 4x Mystical Tutor on that premise, which I will note can ALSO grab Burning Wish. This allows for still grabbing answers AND Tendrils which will cut down on the high cc of the list. Honestly I see no reason not to run it. In fact, I see no reason not to make this a lot like TES as it's going that direction anyway.

Lets see...

4x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Phyrexian Tower

12x Kobolds (Booo. But they make Burning Wish a lot better with the Chrome Mox interaction)

4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Duress

1x Tendrils of Agony

1x Ad Nauseum
4x Burning Wish
4x Mystical Tutor

All of the stuff in bold TES uses some number of. Why not just accept red will be run and use Kobolds and then Rite of Flames so that it costs less life?

I still like Intent in here. Why is everyone so against using it? 12 Kobolds is more than enough, especially when you don't HAVE to flashback therapy.

Pce,

--DC

[MTG Guru]

Ahhh... If only Vampiric Tutor were unbanned. We'd all be happier.

Has anyone considered Grim Tutor, or is he too high in the curve @3 mana?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually, I've been testing Intent. It's not quite as good as B. Wish was back when AN was a Sorcery (in my mind), but it fulfills a similar role, although you have to run 2/2 on AN-Tendrils instead of 1/1.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Here me out:

I'm wondering why we don't use more pacts? 4x Slaughter Pact is free storm, and you will almost always have a target due to all the free men. If not, why not play Pact of the Titan? that's 2x 0cmc spells that give one a target. The white one isn't bad per say, it can be in response to their lightning bolt that would otherwise kill you, and we already have pact of negation for their silly FoW/Stifle. This could be kind of like a pact.dec list if you WANTED it to be, and I thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention. I don't know if it's been tested, but hey, who knows. It could work...Oh, Slaughter Pact is also good in getting rid of Teeg/Mage pre-combo. it's almost good enough to run as a 4-of maindecked as while they might never hit a relevant critter, you still have the opportunity of smashing one of your own to up the storm count, and it never hurts to be prepared. You draw one and hold it until ready to combo off, play it, then you chant or just go balls to the wall into D. Rit, D. Rit, AdN, and win. Summoner's pact is less than useless other than it's a free shuffle effect, but who gives a crap...

Pce,

--DC

[Zir]

Slaughter Pact might have a place, but I'm fairly certain none of the other do. I'd be hesitant to include 4 Pacts since they're kind of dead midcombo.

As for making this Pact.dec, why would you want to do that? Yeah, you could include a lot of pacts, but that'd make this deck a gimmick rather than an actual deck.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Gimmick? How so? The black, blue and white pacts all have applications here. Even the red one does as it can act as a reason to play S. Pact, not to mention it creates a creature for 0 much like a Kobold that you can sac to Culling of the Weak, Therapy, S. Pact, and Intent for those who run it. White pact is a freebie, but it give an out against burn spells such as Lightning Bolt in UGr Thresh. PoN is obviously a good card for the deck, and as I've states S. Pact slaps Teeg/Mage in addition to it's other applications to the list.

Titan Pact, flash back Therapy, go off.
Slaughter Pact, go off.
PoN--As long as it's in hand, it's protection for the go-off turn, as well has stopping Stifle when you've got lethal storm and are ready to drop Tendrils
White Pact--You reach a low life, stop drawing off AdN, they Bolt, you Pact, and then you go off.

I'd say they are worth looking into. With a high CC count, you may not need as many of the other things we are running. Chant comes to mind, as does B. Wish. I think it warrants discussion.

Pce,

--DC

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, if I were after more free spells, I'd play more Kobolds or Ornithopters, under the condition that

a) They're synergistic with a dozen cards in the deck, in addition to simply being free spells,


b) They don't contain the words, "Lose the game" anywhere in their textbox.

[Happy Gilmore]

Funny thing is, most of the deck would be pretty cheap to build if you go mono-black... this could cause combo to become more played (as long as ad nauseum doesn't hit the high range of cost which it probably will).

Side note: Is Ad Nauseum a play on the latin Ad Nauseam? I looked up the name for kicks and this is what I found:

Ad nauseam is a Latin term used to describe an argument that has been continued to the point of nausea. (wikipedia)

It wont. As it stands AN is a eternal format card only. That means that foils will go for a ton but regular ones will be cheap. As is stands they are 3-4 a piece. If anything I see that price going down or staying the same because in a base set, so many drafts will be done with it that the card availability will be high.

The problem that AN is going to run into will be the same as all the other combo decks, CB. So far I like where Les Mise is going, It would certainly be one of the cheapest decks in legacy to build. The difficulty is haveing the right numbers of all the cards.

I particuarly like this version because of Shield Wall and Cabal Therapy. The inteactions are excellent. Just keep it simple.

[rufus]

For a bit of a curveball, how about running Glimpse of Nature? Although that probably does want a bit of an increase in the critter count, it's an alternative engine, and has some nice synergies all-around.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nah, I tried Glimpse, there's no way to run enough creatures. Glimpse is still MathematicallyChallenged.dec

[jericohs@cottage]

Let's talk sideboard...

I hate Chalice @ 0 so i'm putting 4 x chain of vapour in here
I hate Teeg so i'm putting 4 x slaughter pact

.... can we play misdirection in Legacy?

[jericohs@cottage]

Oh yeah,

In french - LES MISES :cool:

[troopatroop]

Let's talk sideboard...

I hate Chalice @ 0 so i'm putting 4 x chain of vapour in here
I hate Teeg so i'm putting 4 x slaughter pact

.... can we play misdirection in Legacy?

Repeal is a better Chalice answer, along with a better Counterbalance answer. It's in Sideboards above.

[jericohs@cottage]

Repeal is a better Chalice answer, along with a better Counterbalance answer. It's in Sideboards above.

Naw it's not, the last thing i want to do is play UX for a spell...

With Chain of vapour they can choose to bounce a permanent at the cost of a land and you can cast it again cause every single permanent you own costs zero.

But seriously, you'll never have any permanents in play until you go off... Explain to me how repeal is better???

[troopatroop]

Naw it's not, the last thing i want to do is play UX for a spell...

With Chain of vapour they can choose to bounce a permanent at the cost of a land and you can cast it again cause every single permanent you own costs zero.

But seriously, you'll never have any permanents in play until you go off... Explain to me how repeal is better???

Bouncing chalice at 0 costs U. And you draw.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also, it can bounce Counterbalance.

[Greed]

Can u rate this type of adN... i made it R/B but i lack tutors... can help me find things to go on with the deck

5cc
2 Ad Nauseum
4cc
3 tendrils of agony
2 emptythe warrens

2cc
3 manamorphose
3 cabal ritual
3 desperate ritual
2 burning wish

1cc
4 cabal teraphy
4 duress
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame

0cc
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 badlands
3 bloodstained mire
3 gemstone mine

[jericohs@cottage]

Can u rate this type of adN... i made it R/B but i lack tutors... can help me find things to go on with the deck

5cc
2 Ad Nauseum
4cc
3 tendrils of agony
2 emptythe warrens

2cc
3 manamorphose
3 cabal ritual
3 desperate ritual
2 burning wish

1cc
4 cabal teraphy
4 duress
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame

0cc
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 badlands
3 bloodstained mire
3 gemstone mine

it's a pile buddy...

- no engine = 2 AdN isn't enough. Notice the AdN threads have many engines to make the deck work. You not so much. The only thing that can help you chain spells is your cantrips and your 2 AdN's... You can add infernal tutors + LED + IGG. Those are engines on their own for this type of deck. LED being the only expensive card of the three. Have you ever played storm COMBO???

(you have to fix your engine, notice Les Mises thread and Ad Nauseum Combo thread)

- your running 10 lands...???

- your running 2 burning wish with no sideboard...???

- Tendrils of Agony x 3 and Empty the Warrens x 2 is horrible... I understand you put that many in because you have no tutors but common, you can't honnestly this configuration is good with AdN??? These are your finishers and nothing else. They are useless on their own. You have way to many of them in your deck. I'd run 1 Tendrils in my deck, 4 burning wish, 1 Empty the Warrens. Put and extra ToA and EtW into your sideboard to fetch with burning wish


If you insist i rate this deck, i'm giving you a whoping 2 out of 10...because you clearly haven't done your homework or have never seen a storm deck win. Oh and read AdN a few more times and think about your curve.

[jericohs@cottage]

Bouncing chalice at 0 costs U. And you draw.

OK Troopatroop, explain why not playing 4 x Chain of Vapor maindeck is not better than playing repeal. I think you lost my point of view when you dictated that repeal is better for returning counterbalance to their hand. I agree. However, "Repeal is great but its not as synergistic as Chain of Vapor."

Case in Point:
Your going off with ad nauseaum. Draw 10-12 cards. Play all your moxen, mana spells, etc. What are you left with? 1 Chain of Vapor or multiples. Cast it, rinse and repeat. IF you chain the chain of vapor (targetting yourself) you can sac most of your tapped lands to return all your zero cost stuff and play it again. Effectively, creating a very potent storm engine. Simply put, you can use Chain of Vapor as a more effective storm engine than say what is acheived with LED/IGG/InfT. Chainning yourself ups the storm count and makes the whole combo easier to achieve.

That's why i have always been a supporter of the Spannish Inquisition shell for Ad Nauseam. I don't agree that Ad Nauseam deserves to be in the EPIC Storm (TPS), nor any other variant thereof. Most people will agree that ad nauseam isn't a spell that gets splashed into a deck. It's a deck that gets built around Ad Nauseam.

With that in mind let's start with something along the lines of the synergy I talked about over a month ago and that Stephen Menendian just managed to talk about this week. My tech is trying to fit this chain of vapor tech with an affinity type shell and a spannish inquisition feel, ;-) hehe

4 x chain of vapor
4 x ornithopther
4 x chrome mox
4 x phyrexian walker
4 x frogmite
4 x ad nauseum
4 x Tendrils of Agony (Don't tutor it, make sure you have it in your opening hand so that you can reliably go off turn 3-4)
4 x cabal therapy

Notice the artifact count, maybe we should play Cranial Platting? Would this just be a win more? Shit, maybe we should play this Affinity style/ad nauseum combo? Any takers on making a quick list.

-----------------
Which mana generating spells to use needs to be discussed and i think we should drop cabal ritual, keep DR, CtW

4 x culling the weak
4 x dark ritual
4 x cabal ritual

------------------

Can we make this affinity version style Spannish Inquisition deck work? Could we possibly fit in Cranial Platting, or even 2 copies of Myr Enforcer? Affinity could be fueled by Ad Nauseum... Has anyone thought of that.

Just a thought.

[ssilver]

Why do that when you can just get Ad Nauseam and win through combo-out? There is no point in paying tons of mana for a spell like Ad Nauseam if it doesn't win right away. If they counter it, then your strategy is screwed anyway, but in an aggro shell even if you resolve it they can just kill your men.

[Vacrix]

yes, diabolic intent would be quite good here.


if you can run enough 0cc creatures, glimpse of nature might be a nice draw engine as well. And to run green you could cut 4 swamps for land grants and run 3 Bayou.


EDIT:

If you have alot of swamps, Lake of the Dead?

[idraleo]

This is the last one i' m testing now:

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep

// Spells
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Reprocess
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

[jericohs@cottage]

This is the last one i' m testing now:

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep

// Spells
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Reprocess
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip


What's your average storm count during goldfish? and average turn going off?

[Maveric78f]

This is the last one i' m testing now:

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [LG] Crookshank Kobolds
4 [LG] Crimson Kobolds
3 [LG] Kobolds of Kher Keep

// Spells
3 [PS] Diabolic Intent
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [EX] Culling the Weak
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ALA] Ad Nauseam

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PS] Diabolic Intent
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Reprocess
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Why do you play LED in such a build?
Why on earth 3 tendrils in SB?
Why do you need the empty the warren kill? If you have only red mana? Isn't there a better solution?
Why don't you play a single anti-creature in your board?
Why 3 shattering spree and not a single tutorable antienchantment?

[Di]

Are you sure of that?
Copies from Chain of vapor aren't played, them go to the stack.
Storm says "copy it for each spell played before it this turn"

He means using the copies to replay 0cc cards, thus upping the storm count.

[Gocho]

I rethink about that after send the message...

[troopatroop]

OK Troopatroop, explain why not playing 4 x Chain of Vapor maindeck is not better than playing repeal. I think you lost my point of view when you dictated that repeal is better for returning counterbalance to their hand. I agree. However, "Repeal is great but its not as synergistic as Chain of Vapor."

Case in Point:
Your going off with ad nauseaum. Draw 10-12 cards. Play all your moxen, mana spells, etc. What are you left with? 1 Chain of Vapor or multiples. Cast it, rinse and repeat. IF you chain the chain of vapor (targetting yourself) you can sac most of your tapped lands to return all your zero cost stuff and play it again. Effectively, creating a very potent storm engine. Simply put, you can use Chain of Vapor as a more effective storm engine than say what is acheived with LED/IGG/InfT. Chainning yourself ups the storm count and makes the whole combo easier to achieve.

Okay, Maybe in this deck Chain of Vapor could pull out some mind boggling wins, but in my experience, storm count isn't the issue post-AdN. You draw so many cards, why are you worried about storm count? Keep in mind, I play LED and Infernal, and without the Culling the Weak plan, so pretty different decks. That deck gets storm count with LED/IT/IGG pretty easily. That seems like a stonger strategy to me, but to each his own. I would however contest, that playing 4 Frogmite in a deck with AdN is laughable. Frogmite is a pretty bad card anyways. Think of how often the Affinity plan is really going to win you games as opposed to just making the deck stronger. Good job on being creative, but it's a pretty bad idea imo.

If you want to play the man plan with Chain of Vapor, then by all means, tell us how it goes, but I'd rather play a stronger storm deck. Oh, and be careful about declaring your own stuff tech. Suggesting Myr Enforcer. Lolwut

[Dark_Cynic87]

Why do you need the empty the warren kill? If you have only red mana? Isn't there a better solution?

I think EtW is there for getting around Runed Halo/Mage. Personally, I'd rather just Wish-->Grapeshot/Hull Breach and win via Tendrils anyway...I guess this list doesn't run that.

Tomorrow I'll post what I've been working on (wins turn 2 80%, and always by turn 3 barring some huge amount of disruption). I call it Next-Next-Level TES. Hehehe.

Pce,

--DC

[emidln]

Tomorrow I'll post what I've been working on (wins turn 2 80%, and always by turn 3 barring some huge amount of disruption).

You know, SI and TES have done this since like 2006. I don't see what's so impressive with 80% turn 2 when it's well-known that the last generation of storm decks already did that.

[jericohs@cottage]

Okay, Maybe in this deck Chain of Vapor could pull out some mind boggling wins, but in my experience, storm count isn't the issue post-AdN. You draw so many cards, why are you worried about storm count? Keep in mind, I play LED and Infernal, and without the Culling the Weak plan, so pretty different decks. That deck gets storm count with LED/IT/IGG pretty easily. That seems like a stonger strategy to me, but to each his own. I would however contest, that playing 4 Frogmite in a deck with AdN is laughable. Frogmite is a pretty bad card anyways. Think of how often the Affinity plan is really going to win you games as opposed to just making the deck stronger. Good job on being creative, but it's a pretty bad idea imo.

If you want to play the man plan with Chain of Vapor, then by all means, tell us how it goes, but I'd rather play a stronger storm deck. Oh, and be careful about declaring your own stuff tech. Suggesting Myr Enforcer. Lolwut


I hear you man... The affinity list is only a thought, and i think that AdN could fit in Affinity. I think it would actually be pretty terryfying. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts... I'm just thinking out loud but could AdN leave thoughtcast flat in its tracks? Perhaps.

But why play LED, IGG and IT when you can play your plan B as Chain of Vapor which has a CC of 1? Just add more 0cc permanents, like a full suite of Lotus petals, Chrome Mox, etc. Forget about tall men for a minute and concentrate on the TPS build with LED, IGG and IT.

The main point of the post i was discussing is the fact that going with Spannish Inquisition, you can play PoN, and Cabal Therapy as a method of disruption. Ideally, the turn your going off you can set up two cabals and protect AdN with PoN. Making it a tad more resilient that Ad Nauseam Combo with LED, IGG and IT.

And to be quite honnest, the non-supportes of the SI version of AdN have only stated one reason not to play this over the other... Board Sweepers? That statement is rediculous. A spell played is a spell played. The men are there only to be sacrificed in the first place and board sweeping tall men will most likely do nothing to disrupt the combo whatsoever. Second, the combo is just as fast, if not faster.

Lastly, the reason i'm posting in both Les Mises and Ad Nauseam/Tendrils Combo is because i'm not interested in talking about how to play TEPS with AdN nor am I here to discuss how to properly play SI/Tendrils Combo. I'm here to find the best possible shell for AdN cause I think the card is totally busted (just as Necro and Yawg Bargain).

So, all the problems you TPS people face, SI does not. It doesn't loose to burn at all cause the CC is much lower. 2nd, its just as fast and 3rd, it has more disruption. Why play it in a TPS shell?

[emidln]

But why play LED, IGG and IT when you can play your plan B as Chain of Vapor which has a CC of 1? Just add more 0cc permanents, like a full suite of Lotus petals, Chrome Mox, etc. Forget about tall men for a minute and concentrate on the TPS build with LED, IGG and IT.

Infernal Tutor, IGG, and LED often work as a plan A to find Ad Nauseam if you don't actually draw Ad Nauseam. Chain of Vapor really sucks in this capacity. The only time you need to go TPS is against Chalice decks, which is a matchup where Chain of Vapor is extremely lacking. There was a reason that QSI's TPS plan sided in Echoing Truth and Rebuild instead of Chain of Vapor and Hurkyl's Recall.

[jericohs@cottage]

Infernal Tutor, IGG, and LED often work as a plan A to find Ad Nauseam if you don't actually draw Ad Nauseam. Chain of Vapor really sucks in this capacity. The only time you need to go TPS is against Chalice decks, which is a matchup where Chain of Vapor is extremely lacking. There was a reason that QSI's TPS plan sided in Echoing Truth and Rebuild instead of Chain of Vapor and Hurkyl's Recall.

Fair enough. I thought that was Plan B...

play IT for AdN. Response craking LED. Get AdN. Tap a land, Play IGG. Fetch LED, CabalR, DR. Cast AdN. Draw 10 cards. Play them all and cast Tendrils = win.

um, i thought Plan A was simply a nice opener to power out a quick AdN??? You know, something along the lines of DR, DR, AdN, Draw 10 cards, play them all and cast Tendrils = win.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So to protect both plans you have .... Orim's Chant and Duress and I've been reading the other forum post. People are having issues with fitting disruption to aid. I think the average list can fit 5-6 slots to protect.

With QSI...you can have up to 8 slots of disruption (4 PoN, 4 Cabal Therapy)

[Roman Candle]

Fair enough. I thought that was Plan B...

play IT for AdN. Response craking LED. Get AdN. Tap a land, Play IGG. Fetch LED, CabalR, DR. Cast AdN. Draw 10 cards. Play them all and cast Tendrils = win.

That isn't even possible... how did you manage to get the IGG into your hand after cracking LED?

[jericohs@cottage]

Ha I knew something was wrong. You can't search for AdN and cast IGG for the loop. As stated by Roman. I'm having a hard time figuring out what Emidln meant? How can you use the IT-LED-IGG loop to fetch AdN....

Oh, i think i got it, assuming he has several other spells in the graveyard you can...

play led. play IT. response crack led. tap one land. IT resolves fetching IGG. Play IGG getting DR, Cabal Ritual & ...

[emidln]

Wrong. The minimum amount of mana floating with hellbent IT to use IGG is BBB2. This is the same mana required to cast Ad Nauseam. Just find Ad Nauseam and cast it with the floating mana. This is pretty basic.

[jericohs@cottage]

Infernal Tutor, IGG, and LED often work as a plan A to find Ad Nauseam if you don't actually draw Ad Nauseam.

@Emidln I know how to play the deck. You didn't even do the IGG loop. I was trying to figure it out with the loop. I haven't played TPS in a while here. I've been playing fetchland tendrils.


play led. play IT. response crack led. tap one land. IT resolves fetching IGG. play IGG getting LED, IT, DR. tap one land. play DR. play LED. play IT. response crack led. IT resolves fetching AdN. play AdN. GG.

Sorry, it took a while but i have to keep coming back from meetings hehe at work. lol Anyways, isn't this PLAN B. PLAN A of the deck is to run through a simple storm count and power into a quick AdN via DR and CB right.

The reason why i'm making sure is because this whole discarding your hand thing with LED just sucks. It's a solid way to generate storm count I AGREE 100%, but SI gives you the possibility of protecting your AdN via PoN and protecting your Tendrils mid-combo via multiple cabal therapies. you understand that right? Where can you do that mid-IGG loop?

[emidln]

Infernal Tutor is not just a plan B with Ill-Gotten Gains but also a tutor for plan A. Works just like Mystical Tutor would. I have no idea why you would want to incorporate extra cards like Ill-Gotten Gains into this if you are intent on winning with Ad Nauseam and already have the mana. The only time IGG finds Ad Nauseam is vs discard (or when you are generating extra mana with IGG by casting it from hand without first tutoring for it as to float mana through casting Ad Nauseam).

As far as protection goes, you can still use Cabal Therapy. I have never, ever advocated Pact of Negation in SI (if you check my posting history, you'll realize that I've written once or twice on the subject). I have played Cabal Therapy, Duress, and Thoughtseize.

QSI never played Pact of Negation. I designed that deck too for what it's worth (so please don't argue the subject with me).

[Dark_Cynic87]

You know, SI and TES have done this since like 2006. I don't see what's so impressive with 80% turn 2 when it's well-known that the last generation of storm decks already did that.

I know these other decks have done the same thing, and you are right--It's not impressive; Just effective. Also, I'm pretty sure SI doesn't run 8x pieces of protection. Plus, this doesn't fizzle. Non-AdN TES has the potential to fizzle.

I also run M. Tutor, which allows for finding my pretection/disruption, or AdN.

Pce,

--DC

[Waikiki]

What list do you play then? PM? Im interested!

[jericohs@cottage]

I know these other decks have done the same thing, and you are right--It's not impressive; Just effective. Also, I'm pretty sure SI doesn't run 8x pieces of protection. Plus, this doesn't fizzle. Non-AdN TES has the potential to fizzle.

I also run M. Tutor, which allows for finding my pretection/disruption, or AdN.

Pce,

--DC

LOL That's totally true man. The reason they're so bent on putting AdN in TPS is because they were tired of loosing due to fizzle. LOL. Now they must find solace in AdN. Priceless.

[Vacrix]

I know these other decks have done the same thing, and you are right--It's not impressive; Just effective. Also, I'm pretty sure SI doesn't run 8x pieces of protection. Plus, this doesn't fizzle. Non-AdN TES has the potential to fizzle.

I also run M. Tutor, which allows for finding my pretection/disruption, or AdN.

Pce,

--DC

i pilot tall man SI and i run 4 cabal therapy, but 1 cabal therapy for me usually functions as 2 protection spells while i'm going off, as i usually draw4 into a tall man i don't need for anything so i play it for the flashback and 2 to the storm count. so cabal therapy functions like 8 protection.

even if SI fizzles, it doesnt roll over and die, which is why its so good to play against landstill and thresh. i've never lost to thresh and go more than 50% against landstill. i think that is pretty good.


mystical tutor is good for finding protection though.

[Zir]

I'm calling Shenanigans. It's hard enough to believe you haven't lost to Thresh, which has a fast clock, runs counterspells(not to mention CB+Top) and has access to MM and such, and you somehow do lose against Landstill, which has loads of dead cards, no actual clock to speak of and only threatening to you due to the counterspells.

[Vacrix]

I'm calling Shenanigans. It's hard enough to believe you haven't lost to Thresh, which has a fast clock, runs counterspells(not to mention CB+Top) and has access to MM and such, and you somehow do lose against Landstill, which has loads of dead cards, no actual clock to speak of and only threatening to you due to the counterspells.

ya well i have lost GAMES to thresh but not matches (ie. i got 2-1 sometimes). really maybe im just lucky. and also i haven't played against versions with counterbalance as i have been away from FNM for a little while. landstill i play against runs MD stifle and such. its not traditional landstill and i dont really know what to call it. its a bitch to play against though.

[Dark_Cynic87]

i pilot tall man SI and i run 4 cabal therapy, but 1 cabal therapy for me usually functions as 2 protection spells while i'm going off, as i usually draw4 into a tall man i don't need for anything so i play it for the flashback and 2 to the storm count. so cabal therapy functions like 8 protection.

even if SI fizzles, it doesnt roll over and die, which is why its so good to play against landstill and thresh. i've never lost to thresh and go more than 50% against landstill. i think that is pretty good.


mystical tutor is good for finding protection though.

4x Cabal Therapy may FUNCTION like 8x protection spells, but you don't see them as often due to having 4x less, and no tutors for them. I'm talking about playing 8x actual pieces of protection, and then 3-4x Tutors to find them as well, not to mention that if you have protection in hand, you can instead find AdN with your tutor. Essentially, I easily combo off turn 2 75%-80% of the time, without using tall men (I hate tall men).

Not Fizzling >>>>>>>>>> not rolling over and dying after fizzling.

My computer crashed and burned, I have the list printed off somewhere, but as of now I can't find it. It's basically TES with manamorphose (I don't care what anyone says, this is nutz) in place of SSG's, Some M. Tutors (3x I think), -1 Contract and -1 D. Returns, and an IT in the SB instead of 8x md 2cc tutors. Oh, and a singleton AdN.

Pce,

--DC