[Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff

[midori mage]

Hi,

At a small tournament I played a version of similar to Sandro Campigotto version that I found at Deck Check..

http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=19265

When this combo goes of off, I can draw my deck and make my creatures infinitely huge, and gain infinite life. Goldfishing I have gone off on turn 2, in a tournament I have gone off on turn three.

creatures [38]:

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Multani's Acolyte
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 Sylvan Messenger
2 Timberwatch Elf
3 Viridian Zealot
4 Wirewood Symbiote

sorcery [4]

4 Glimpse of Nature

enchantment [3]

3 Concordant Crossroads

artifact [2]

2 Staff of Domination

land [13]

7 Forest

3 Windswept Heath

3 Wooded Foothills

-----

I didn't use any Fetches and played two Gaea's Cradle. (Probably a mistake.) I found that Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary wasn't that good in this deck.. I didn't tap it for more than three mana and he usually only provides two mana.

I really liked these cards.. Multani's Acolyte and Nettle Sentinel and would like to max them out. Multani with Wirewood Symbiote provide an excellent blocker. Nettle Sentinel and Heritage Druid is a pretty broken combo.

Most players scooped once I had Staff of Domination in play, so I reduced the number of Concordant Crossroads in the deck and added a Staff.

There is a new card from Shards of Alara that could go in this deck



Elvish Visionary 1G
Creature - Elf Shaman
When Elvish Visionary comes into play, draw a card.
1/1

I cut Viridian Zealot, it seemed pretty mana intensive for what it does.

Here is what I'm currently Goldfishing:

creature [38]

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Multani's Acolyte
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Sylvan Messenger
2 Timberwatch Elf
3 Elvish Visionary

4 Wirewood Symbiote

sorcery [4]

4 Glimpse of Nature

enchantment [3]

2 Concordant Crossroads

artifact [2]

3 Staff of Domination

land [13]

7 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills

[insertnamehere]

I do not feel the Heritage Druid combo is the right idea. The deck relies on having 3 sentinels in play to work correctlly. rely on the following:
4 LLanowar
4 Fyndhorn
4 Priest of Titania
1 Rofellos

As far as defensive measures I would run the following
4 Imperious Perfect (Infinite Elves)
2-3 Elvish Champion
2-3 Wilt-Leaf Liege

Beaters
Talaria Batalion
Sylvan Messanger (this is a bit tricky becasue of the high percentage of non elf cards in the deck)
Wren's Run Vanquisher (as long as there are other elves in the deck.)
Wren's Run Packmaster (infinite wolves with deathtouch)
Taunting elves

[badjuju]

I do not feel the Heritage Druid combo is the right idea. The deck relies on having 3 sentinels in play to work correctlly. rely on the following:
4 LLanowar
4 Fyndhorn
4 Priest of Titania
1 Rofellos

As far as defensive measures I would run the following
4 Imperious Perfect (Infinite Elves)
2-3 Elvish Champion
2-3 Wilt-Leaf Liege

Beaters
Talaria Batalion
Sylvan Messanger (this is a bit tricky becasue of the high percentage of non elf cards in the deck)
Wren's Run Vanquisher (as long as there are other elves in the deck.)
Wren's Run Packmaster (infinite wolves with deathtouch)
Taunting elves

Not sure if I agree with you on some of the card choices. The elves you listed are all more suited for an offensive style deck, and taking out mana producing pieces isn't going to help you power out elves like the current version of the deck can.

The real question is: is this deck better than elf aggro? If it is, then is it better than any other combo deck for whatever reason?

Just a thought. I like the list and the concept, but even with the plausible finishes...just how good exactly is this deck?

[insertnamehere]

Not sure if I agree with you on some of the card choices. The elves you listed are all more suited for an offensive style deck, and taking out mana producing pieces isn't going to help you power out elves like the current version of the deck can.

The real question is: is this deck better than elf aggro? If it is, then is it better than any other combo deck for whatever reason?

Just a thought. I like the list and the concept, but even with the plausible finishes...just how good exactly is this deck?

Please note "They are suggestions" I have run almost the same deck for the last two years with plenty of top 8 finishes

[Wobbles The Goose]

Seeing as multiple versions of this deck just top 8ed the pt, seeing interesting.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptber08/t8decks

So, the base of the deck looks like this:

16-17 Land

4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Glimpse of Nature
Some number of Summoner's Pact/Chords of calling/Weird Harvest

Fyndhorn elves seem awesome in here. As does Viridian Shaman, seeing as chalice for 1 is way more popular in t1.5. Finally, Elvish spirit guide seems really exciting. Especially with Weird Harvest.

Things I don't think work well in this deck are elvish mainstays like priest of titania, rofellos or sylvan messenger.

The jury's still out on cradle. It just hasn't come up in enough games to swing it's weight one way or the other. The land situation in general is awkward, because the deck only really needs green mana to function. Black is the popular option, although that is likely partially because gilt-leaf palace makes it pretty painless in extended. It's probably possible to shave it down to 15 with 4 spirit guides, but then I really don't see how you are using cradle, or many non-basics. Too risky blood moon, wasteland, or dumb luck just hose you.

I really like Grapeshot as the win condition, as it does so many things well without running into common hate.

[Poron]

I'm building something similar for fun and in my list I consider as an auto include Imperious Perfect and Elvish Harbinger.

[Wobbles The Goose]

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle

4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elves of the Deep Shadow
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Weird Harvest
1 Gaea's Herald
1 Orim's Chant
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

4 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaea's Herald
3 Elvish Champion
1 Forest
3 Wrap in Vigor
3 Umezawa's Jitte

So good. I'd recommend tournament coverage from PT Berlin for how to pilot the deck, including the turn 2 kills.

Cradle is insane assuming it isn't your only land. Makes it way easier to clock by turn 3, as do the ESGs.

Weird Harvest totally seals the game, but you dig fast enough that you don't really need more than 2.

This deck is awesome.

edit:

Decklist updated Nov 11th. I now prefer the "thoughtseize, pass the turn, chant you, pass the turn, attack" win condition rather than grapeshot or a dragon. I go into that more later in the thread. The original list had Elvish spirit guides. They were really good, allowing a turn 2-3 clock, with 2 happening once in every five or six games. This deck as it stands is more turn 3-4.

The sideboard undergoes constant revision.

[rockout]

During my testing with the deck Wobbles posted I was able to power out my deck with just Birchlore Ranger and Nettle Sentinel on the field. I glimpsed and went nuts until i found another Nettle Sentinel that made any color mana practically free. The engine is so quick and can play the aggro role really easily if you run Wirewood Hivemaster.

This is the list I am currently testing:
// Lands
4 [UNH] Forest
3 [B] Bayou
2 [JGC] Gaea's Cradle
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 [EVE] Regal Force
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
2 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
4 [FNM] Llanowar Elves
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [FNM] Elves of Deep Shadow
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
3 [LE] Wirewood Hivemaster
2 [DS] Viridian Zealot

// Spells
2 [RAV] Chord of Calling
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
2 [ON] Weird Harvest
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [10E] Viridian Shaman

Crop Rotation sacrificing a tapped Gaea's Cradle for another Gaea's Cradle or a Bayou for the black mana to cast Tendrils is amazing. This deck is the real deal when it comes to insanely fun and powerful at the same time.

[Wobbles The Goose]

@rockout

How often do you find yourself whiffing while going off? I'd be worried that your build relies really heavily on Glimpse of Nature resolving, because you aren't running Visionary and Chrome Mox is basically like mulliganing. It might explain your preference for tendrils over grapeshot, because when I'm going off I don't have any problem ramping to sufficiently high storm counts. Visionary+ Symbiote is just awesome.

Hivemaster is awesome with chords of calling, but probably bit slower on the whole. I would definitely try out one of the creature win conditions if you are going to use him (mirror entity or predator dragon) because you can fetch them with chords and just focus on that. Weird Harvest and Chords really represent two different modes of attack. Personally I love Harvest with ESG, have you tried them?

Zealot is an interesting choice. I don't like him because there are so few enchantments I care about game one, and he doesn't kill engineered plague game 2. Plus I like my guys to stay around.

Elves of Deep Shadow is interesting, but I find the green mana is so much more important with Fyndhorn, and turn 2 thoughseize not that important. I can seem them being important with Tendrils, but I'm not sold on Tendrils.

Crop Rotation is great. I don't know what I want to cut for it though, because I don't often run out of mana as often as I run out of cards when fighting against force of will. Forcing Glimpse is such a pain. Plus, I'd be worried about fizzling because you draw crop and lands or something.

[rockout]

When I do "whiff," I still put a significant amount of elves into play, in addition, insect tokens from Wirewood Hivemaster that I can easily swing for the win next turn.

My plan was to add Mirror Entity so I could have an instant cast out to say Pyroclasm or something similar. I haven't tested either, but it may be fall under too cool tech.

I do agree with you in regards to Zealot. I'm going to run Viridian Shaman instead.

Elves of Deep Shadow was a 1 cc elf that produced mana. Also, on MWS I have hi-res scan pictures and Elves of Deep Shadow FNM look sexier than Fyndhorn Elves. If I ever brought this to a tournament, I'd obviously run Fyndhorn Elves.

Elvish Visionary just doesn't do anything that Weird Harvest or Call of Cording do better. Find you your engine. Just recently, I remember EOTing a Call of Cording for Regal Force on my opponents turn 4 and proceeding to combo off. Regal Force allows you to draw so many cards that it with Cord of Calling have to be combined. I run a lot less lands than you do. I have a tendacy to draw 4-5+ elves in a row off a single glimpse run which allows me to continue going.

Most games I don't cast Chrome Mox. So that can probably be replaced with something. The main reason I'm running Chrome Mox is I just run a really low land count. Is ESG better than Chrome Mox? -1 Card for reusuable mana versus a 1 time 1 shot deal mana source. I don't think ESG is good enough, but it can be Weird Harvested for so I'll have to try it.

Cards I've considered testing/tested:
Gaea's Herald - It's an Elf. Maybe it'll be good.
Rofellos - No Haste = fail.
Cordant Crossroads - Don't need haste with the engine I run.
Cameleon Colossus - If you want to run Cordant Crossroads, he will swing for the win the turn he hits.
Mirror Entity - If you want to protect your guys g2 and g3 from pyroclasm, but only really good with Cord of Calling.

Any other comments would be greatly appreciated. I have way too much fun playing this deck.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Mirror entity does a lot of things: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptber08/fm11

"Wirewood Hivemaster followed, and with an activation of Wirewood Symbiote he renewed his Nettle Sentinels by replaying a Heritage Druid. After about six more Elves, Doise had 45 life, six insect tokens, 14 green mana, and an army of the little green people. He activated Mirror Entity for 1 to make the Insects into Elves, and then tapped them for mana and used Entity with X = 20 to attack with an army of one gigantic 20/20 Heritage Druid."

I tried Chrome Mox and really didn't like them. They make it seem like you are playing less land, but consider you are playing 13 land + 4 Chrome Mox, while I am playing 17 land. ESG provides the extra boost of mana when you are comboing off, or it is just a free cantrip if you are digging. Combine that with the ability to find it with Pact and you've got an amazing card.

On Visionary. I really like visionary. He makes it so much easier to win through a force of will, because banking on a single weird harvest or chord of calling to resolve won't work once your opponent knows what's happening. Meanwhile, Visionary can often cheaply bait a counterspell or just chain into one another for the win.

I really recommend reading the PT coverage. Lots of cool insight about the deck.

[rockout]

Essense Warden seems good. It builds you enough life to have time to recover if you get wrathed. Apparently Mirror Entity is really good. I forgot it makes everything an elf.

@Wobbles: Let me know what changes you made to your deck so far.

[b4r0n]

I've also been following the PT coverage, and this deck is absolutely absurd in Extended. However, the there are a few key differences:


prevalence of Force of Will/Counterbalance/Chalice
prevalence of sweepers such as EE and Deed
existence of faster combo

In light of those differences, I think it's pretty crucial to run disruption in the maindeck. While that slows down the combo somewhat, it doesn't hamper you too much. LSV double Thoughtseized and won on turn 3. In Extended. In Legacy, we can do that, and better.

Anyways, Wobbles, your list looks awesome. Have you considered maindeck Thoughtseizes? Maybe replacing some number of ESGs?

EDIT: Chant might be solid too. And it would allow for Horizon Canopy, which seems good. Gaddock Teeg/Ethersworn Canonist also.

[Wobbles The Goose]

prevalence of Force of Will/Counterbalance/Chalice
prevalence of sweepers such as EE and Deed
existence of faster combo


EDIT: Chant might be solid too. And it would allow for Horizon Canopy, which seems good. Gaddock Teeg also.


Chalice, trinisphere, devastating dreams, cannonist and counterbalance are the big problems. The others really aren't as scary as you might think, especially with how little force causes you to stumble. Deed and EE are slow answers, but obviously problematic if they can slow you down long enough with force of wills. But they really aren't even in the same league as cards like Counterbalance or Chalice. Your best hope is really that they don't mulligan agressively to find those cards game one, then in games two and three you can board in answers. Having a Gaea's Herald maindeck helps a lot, just in general. See above for my current build

This deck seems really strong, and a defensible metagame choice if you are planning on facing Threshold, Landstill, Dredge, Aggro, Survival, and Goblins. At the very least, this deck doesn't quite crumble to trinisphere like most storm combo does, if only because you can still keep plopping out creatures and race. Also, bringing in 4 thorns does awesome things for your combo matches. Much better than thoughtseize.

On splashing white. Those are very good cards, I just don't know about their place in the deck. Frankly, Magus of the Moon is such a pain, I just want to go mono-green. No reason to be throwing away game 1 because you might want to bring in thoughseize. Especially because your thorn package really helps against the combo you would be fighting with the thoughseizes anyway. Canonist basically hoses you, and the merits of Chant v City of solitude are debatable. I really like Gaea's Herald out of the board, it's your one stop shop for all sorts of answers. I also like to transform into Mycoloth/jitte.dec because it demands really different answers.

[b4r0n]

After playing around with it some more, I think you're right. Thorn is really good, especially when you can drop it turn 1 off ESG. I'm not sure if going mono-green is the best route, since you have 5 basics plus mana-elves against Blood Moon, but it probably doesn't matter too much. I'm also liking Gaea's Herald in the main (with more in the board). Good call.

Yeah, overall, the deck is really strong. It's ridiculously fast. I'm goldfishing turn 2 and 3 consistently, and can kill turn 4 when I fizzle.

[badjuju]

This deck really is pretty awesome.
Just for reference, here are all the sideboard cards run in all of the top8 Elf variants:

Burrenton Forge-Tender
Ethersworn Cannonist
Gaddock Teeg
Orzhov Pontiff
Tar Fiend
Viridian Shaman
Voidstone Gargoyle
Naturalize
Thorn of Amethyst
Umezawa's Jitte
Blasting Station
Fecundity
Gleeful Sabotage
Goblin Sharpshooter
Thoughtseize
Seal of Primordium
Brain Freeze
Sundering Titan
Choke
Mycoloth
Nullmage Shepherd
Viridian Shaman
Pendelhaven

Note that a large portion of these cards are creature tutor targets as well as cards with convoke or conspire casting costs, tap creature to use effects, as well as devour.

Beyond the board, I think I might do a rundown of the cards that I think should be swapped out for Legacy-powered counterparts, as well as what should stay and what should go.

[Wobbles The Goose]

The sideboard is probably going to be geared towards your metagame and your precise build of the deck. Specifically if you are splashing a color, running 4 elvish spirit guides, and if you have hate cards in the main.

For example, I really like Gaea's Herald, both for the main and the sb. It's a versatile answer for some of the biggest threats in the deck: chalice for 1 and counterbalance.

Also, Extended builds never have to deal with an engineered plague, which is a brutal card. Reverent Silence, Wickerbow Elder, Imperious Perfect/Elvish Champion/Wilt-leaf liege, or any of the other numerous cards that destroy enchantments are obvious answers. The lords are particularly cute answers, because they also allow a transformation into a more typical beat down deck out of the board. Engineered plague doesn't see enough play right now to really justify maindeck inclusion of a Champion, but your meta may very. Black aggro Eva green and whatnot, hate to see WL Liege. And that is going to be the common matchup bringing in e plagues against you.

Thorn of Amethyst- great card. Especially with 4 Elvish Spirit guides, these seem like your best answer to combo. Other possible green combo answers would be maybe guttural response, faerie maccabre, tormod's crypt, wheel of the sun and the moon (I like this card), leyline or your own chalices for 0. Really the best combo answers are probably in other colors, like orim's chant, stifle, thoughseize, cabal therapy, or gaddock teeg. Just remember that the deck can be just as fast when it wants to be, especially with ESG.

Transformation- one of the keys to LSV's success was his sideboard plan of 4 jitte and 1 mycoloth. It allowed him to basically transform into a neo-secret force deck games 2 and 3. Obviously, this is tempting against things like tmwa, burn, goblins and certain builds of zoo. I'm not sure if 4 jitte is the best answer (you don't typically have to win a jitte war against these decks, but I could be wrong), but the idea is still important.

Of the splash options, black is the most interesting. Discard is great for all sorts of matchups, both to slow down combo and force through against control. White is up there, mostly for chant. Unfortunately, chant doesn't do much against counterbalance, while an early duress/therepy/seize has potential in that area.

Something to consider. I don't see many merits in a blue or red splash, maybe other people do?

Edit:
Current SB, for those interested
Sideboard

1 Windswept Heath
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Thoughtseize
2 Viridian Shaman
1 Gaea's Herald
3 Wilt-leaf Liege

[badjuju]

Yea I don't think we need red or blue splashed. B or W seem to handle our problems fine, and there are enough mono-G answers in elf-form. The one thing I would say about going G/B and not running Grapeshot is that Grapeshot plays around Teeg, and is probably the sole reason why LSV used the card over Tendrils.

The thing about plague in general is that I don't really see it anymore anyways. can't think of a popular list that includes plague in the board, and even if they did it'd be a rare chance that you'll run into it. I honestly like Grip out of the board since it answers almost all problems without worry, including Counterbalance.

I actually like Dragon/Mirror Entity elves more because of Wirewood Hivemaster and Chord of Calling. I think both versions are viable, but I just like the idea of having a solid swarm plan ontop of being able to use tokens and convoke for the win. Hivemaster is just insane in here. The problem is the list is super-tight, and one of the only things I can think of adding are Gaea's Cradles. It's also possible, though, that cards like Predator Dragon and Mirror Entity are more vulnerable because they are creatures.

Any suggestions for beefing up the list with Legacy parts? I really just want to have a MD disruption card like Thoughtseize so that if I know I'm playing against instant speed removal and/or counterspells that I can go off or Chord+Dragon and devour my board without worries.

Also, more than most of the time I don't understand why I would need Regal Force in the Dragon version, because to Chord for Regal costs 10 and to Chord for Dragon costs 9...and if you're casting Chord you probably have enough creatures to just kill right then and there. I dunno, just an observation.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Yea I don't think we need red or blue splashed. B or W seem to handle our problems fine, and there are enough mono-G answers in elf-form. The one thing I would say about going G/B and not running Grapeshot is that Grapeshot plays around Teeg, and is probably the sole reason why LSV used the card over Tendrils.

Teeg is one reason. Another is that LSV played an eternal witness, so that he could use the grapeshot in the early game to buy time (especially in the mirror) and still kill with it. I'm rarely having problems reaching a sufficient storm count, so I'm not sold on it.

@plague

It's scary. It depends on your metagame, but so many established decks can run it. Decks like eva green, deadguy and red death are just horrible matchups. I seriously doubt that this deck can win those matchups without considerable luck. It's so bad, that it might not be worth the slots. Krosan Grip I'm still doubtful of. Grip presents a speed bump in the combo, can't be tutored for, and is still a slow answer. Depends on your metagame, for sure.

@Dragon/Mirror Entity/Hivemaster
Same engine, different decks. I haven't spent as much time testing those builds, so I can't speak to the relative strengths. GP results suggest that the grapeshot build was faster in extended, and that speed has been reinforced by the legacy additions. I mean, this deck swarms pretty well reguardless, so I'm not sure how important hivemaster really is.

@thoughtseize
I think this move would come at the expense of a lot of speed. If you really wanted to, I would go -1 Llanowar, -3 ESG, -1 Elvish Visionary for 4 thoughtseize and a bayou. But that hasn't been very helpful for me. I imagine a dragon/entity build would be a lot more reliant on this, but I don't see it that important either way.


Also, more than most of the time I don't understand why I would need Regal Force in the Dragon version, because to Chord for Regal costs 10 and to Chord for Dragon costs 9...and if you're casting Chord you probably have enough creatures to just kill right then and there. I dunno, just an observation.

They are really different cards. I find Regal Force a lot earlier while going off (usually with pacts, which is important). Also, my observation is that the current configuration generates mana so much easier then it does creatures. With Cradle and spirit guides, you get a ton of mana, but you would be banking really heavily to go all in early. And weird harvest is just a lot more versatile for setting up the combo.

[badjuju]

*snip*

Seems that you're putting a lot of money on going off. I understand and recognize that Grapeshot Elves is faster, but it goes all in in order to go faster. This puts a much larger emphasis on resolving and finding a Glimpse, and probably a decent reliance on Regal Force to get you there. Not that speed is a bad thing, I just think that if you wanted speed there are other faster, safer combo decks.

With Gaea's Cradle, going off is never a problem. Even without Gaea's Cradle, going off is hardly a problem. You'd be surprised how amazing Hivemaster is, especially when you start playing out your whole hand and bouncing Visionaries back with Symbiote. The amount of tokens you generate is ridiculous, and is usually followed up with a convoke for the nuts. The deck without Hivemasters only swarms well if you have enough mana to play out a Regal Force or have casted Glimpse. With Hivemaster, almost every hand becomes a lethal swarm.

I'll have to try both versions out more before I come to a firm conclusion though.

[Infinitium]

Interesting. How come Llanowar Emissary isn't played? It's another must-counter, you run acceleration for the cost and it looks as if it helps you recoup in the face of disruption. List too tight?

[rockout]

Llanowar Emissary doesn't have haste making it a two drop that taps to heritage druid.

[badjuju]

Viridian Zealot, Viridian Shaman, Nullmage Shepherd, Wickerbough Elder are all better choices for removing problematic artifacts and enchantments.

[Infinitium]

Uh, so it would appear I mixed it up with Sylvan Messenger. Nevermind (Still, wouldn't messenger be an automatic 4-of?).

[b4r0n]

In addition to Plague, Humility is a beating. It's not as likely to show up as Plague, and you can often race it, but it's worth noting. Also, EE is kind of a pain (as are most sweepers, but EE is the most common, hits earliest, and hits at instant speed).

@ Yesmilord: For the Hivemaster version, are you talking about Hivemaster -> Chord -> Regal Force -> Glimpse to start off the combo? Also, how are you fitting in both Thoughtseizes and Chords? I'd be curious to see your list.

Personally, I'm not liking Weird Harvest too much, but I'm not sure that I want to go for the Hivemaster/Chord package either. Any thoughts on alternate tutor setups? Has anyone played around with Worldly Tutor yet?

@ Infinitum: Sylvan Messenger doesn't seem too useful because it either a) costs too much before you start comboing, or b) is worse than Harvest/Chord/Force while you're in the process of comboing. Basically, you wouldn't ever really want to draw it.

[badjuju]

@ Yesmilord: For the Hivemaster version, are you talking about Hivemaster -> Chord -> Regal Force -> Glimpse to start off the combo? Also, how are you fitting in both Thoughtseizes and Chords? I'd be curious to see your list.

Personally, I'm not liking Weird Harvest too much, but I'm not sure that I want to go for the Hivemaster/Chord package either. Any thoughts on alternate tutor setups? Has anyone played around with Worldly Tutor yet?


-Worldly Tutor seems meh. It doesn't give you the creature right away, which is something that Summoner's Pact is amazing for.

-Just today I got turn turn 2'd by my friend about 4 games in a row, and this was with the Hivemaster version. You do give up speed by choosing Hivemaster/Chord, but I feel like Hivemaster is an irreplaceable piece in the deck since he becomes a "combo" himself, generating an insane amount of tokens.

-When I go off, I hardly ever need Regal Force. You see with storm versions, you have to dig for your copy of Tendrils or Grapeshot. With Chord/Hivemaster, as long as you have 8 creatures on board and access to 9 mana/creatures, you can just convoke Chord of Calling and win right there. People may say it's risky, but if your opponent taps out within the first 3 turns for whatever reason, he's probably going to bite the dust. To make matters even more insane, I was running extended TEPS versus my own elves, and I Thoughtseized turn 1 more than half of the games. Did that stop him? Hardly.

-My list is nothing special, it's just a carbon copy of Saito's Dragon-Elves from the PT Berlin top 8. All I added were 2 Gaea's Cradles, as the deck has very little room to add/remove cards. I'd have to test the deck more and get a feel for it before I can decide what stays and goes. As the deck is now, I think it's fast enough to compete in the Legacy format. Minor tweaks can definitely make it viable (hey, Elf-Staff actually made several top 8s, and that deck was freakin slow unless you got the nut draw).

-The problem with the Weird Harvest list is that it just goes all in. It asks you to win that turn or suffer dire consequences (but to be fair, if you cast Weird Harvest you're not in a position to lose - not by a long shot). Oftentimes I'm staring at the ESG in my hand and wishing it was something else. Tutoring for creatures makes the deck's mana production consistent, but in all honesty you need Glimpse or a hand with enough mana to play a Regal Force, because you can't tutor for your engine (Glimpse), just the mana production and the quasi-card draw engine using Symbiote and Visionary. I don't like the idea of putting all your eggs in one basket, which is why I think having Hivemaster is so great. You can go for the smash or for the combo, and you generally create enough tokens that you don't even have to risk your board when devouring with Predator Dragon. It's been good to me so far, and giving up that one turn for a more well-rounded deck is my personal preference. That also isn't to say that Dragon-Elves can't be just as fast, because it can. I was surprised myself tonight when I kept getting turn 2'd. And I used to think turn 3 consistent with TEPS in extended was good. Shit lol.

[b4r0n]

-Worldly Tutor seems meh. It doesn't give you the creature right away, which is something that Summoner's Pact is amazing for.

True. I was suggesting it in addition to Summoner's Pact, but instead of Weird Harvest. Not getting the creature immediately isn't great, yeah. But I feel like there are two main situations in which you'd want to tutor: to start up the combo, and to keep the combo going. To start up the combo, Worldly Tutor has no real drawback (unlike Pact, Weird Harvest, and even Chord to a degree, based on its cost). The loss of a draw is hardly relevant if you just need a Nettle Sentinel or a Birchlore Ranger to start comboing. As for keeping the combo going, if you have the Glimpse engine running already then tutoring to the top of your deck seems fine (as long as you have another creature in hand). Worldly Tutor seems a little worse than Chord or Harvest for keeping the combo going. But in all honesty, it doesn't seem to be gamebreaking; if you have the combo running by that point, you should probably win anyways.

Anyways, just throwing it out there as an option. I haven't actually played around with it yet.


-My list is nothing special, it's just a carbon copy of Saito's Dragon-Elves from the PT Berlin top 8. All I added were 2 Gaea's Cradles, as the deck has very little room to add/remove cards. I'd have to test the deck more and get a feel for it before I can decide what stays and goes. As the deck is now, I think it's fast enough to compete in the Legacy format. Minor tweaks can definitely make it viable (hey, Elf-Staff actually made several top 8s, and that deck was freakin slow unless you got the nut draw).

Yeah, there's not much room at all. I'm just not sure how you'd fit in Thoughtseizes without cutting combo pieces.

But I agree. I think it's definitely fast enough to compete.


-The problem with the Weird Harvest list is that it just goes all in. It asks you to win that turn or suffer dire consequences (but to be fair, if you cast Weird Harvest you're not in a position to lose - not by a long shot). Oftentimes I'm staring at the ESG in my hand and wishing it was something else. Tutoring for creatures makes the deck's mana production consistent, but in all honesty you need Glimpse or a hand with enough mana to play a Regal Force, because you can't tutor for your engine (Glimpse), just the mana production and the quasi-card draw engine using Symbiote and Visionary. I don't like the idea of putting all your eggs in one basket, which is why I think having Hivemaster is so great. You can go for the smash or for the combo, and you generally create enough tokens that you don't even have to risk your board when devouring with Predator Dragon. It's been good to me so far, and giving up that one turn for a more well-rounded deck is my personal preference. That also isn't to say that Dragon-Elves can't be just as fast, because it can. I was surprised myself tonight when I kept getting turn 2'd. And I used to think turn 3 consistent with TEPS in extended was good. Shit lol.

That's a solid argument for Hivemaster, I'll have to give it a shot. However, I'm still a bit leery of using Dragon as the kill with zero maindeck disruption. It still seems like putting all your eggs in one basket (albeit slightly fewer eggs).

But in any case... comboing out on turn 2 with this deck is still awesome. :smile:

[badjuju]

snip

-Try playing the Hivemaster deck a few times. You'll realize that you don't need to "combo off". You just drop your hand, convoke, and kill them with a 20/20 dragon - that's the strength of Chord of Calling. By itself, Chord of Calling becomes an instant speed win condition. Granted there are more answers in Legacy for a 20/20 Dragon - this is something you're pulling off on turn 3 consistently. If not by turn 3, there's a good chance you'll be devouring insect tokens instead of your own elves, meaning you're nearly risk free if something happens to your dragon (by nearly I mean you aren't playing against Landstill lol).

-Yea about Worldly Tutor again. Once you start playing the deck you'll realize that you need stuff "now". If it doesn't read "to hand" or "into play", it's probably too slow.

-As for disruption: I honestly think the deck should just gun it. Today, while testing against elves, my opponent would still win even through multiple disruption effects. You'd be surprised at how you'll Thoughtseize an important combo piece and laugh to yourself, "Haha! Now you can't go off!", then all of a sudden face a board of 5 to 7 1/1s and 2/2s, and the elf player just shrugs and beats you in the face for the 3 turns and the game ends. It's really scary lol. Honestly though, this was playtesting for extended, where the level of removal and hate is several notches lower. I'm just throwing out a point that the deck can definitely win through hate.

-Another reason why Chord of Calling w/ Dragons/Mirror Entity was so big was because the SB Chord targets are amazing, especially in the mirror match (gogo Orzhov Pontiff!)

[NCM]

Personally, I'm not liking Weird Harvest too much, but I'm not sure that I want to go for the Hivemaster/Chord package either. Any thoughts on alternate tutor setups?I'm surprised nobody has suggested Living Wish. It's a flat 2 mana and it grabs all the same stuff Harvest and Chord can plus Gaea's Cradle. Wish can also give you a lot of solutions to any problems you may encounter game one, from Chalice, countermagic, or anything else. Here's my revised list with Wish SB:

Maindeck:
Non-Elf mana:
3 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendlehaven
3 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Elvish Spirit Guide (it really doesn't count as an elf)

Elves:
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Priest of Titania

Search/Draw:
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Living Wish

Kill It With Fire:
1 Grapeshot

SB:
Combo Helpers and Alternate Kills
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Storm Entity
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

Toolbox:
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Elvish Champion/Imperious Perfect (not sure which to go with but leaning towards Champ)
1 Harmonic Sliver (thanks to TheLion for suggesting this)

Stuff I Actually Board In:
3 Xantid Swarm/Gaea's Herald (they both have their merits, discussed below)
4 Serenity

Aside from the maindeck running only 15 lands and having 61 cards total, both of which being dicey, there's not much to say about it. You could easily go down to 3 Summoner's Pact if you feel you don't need the 4th or you could switch one out for a land if you find yourself wishing you had more. Other than those relatively minor issues the maindeck is standard so let's just talk about the SB.

The first section of the SB should be pretty obvious. If you can't Grapeshot them for lethal damage and have the mana, Living Wish for Witness will bring back Grapeshot and win the game. If you don't have the mana to play Witness and replay Grapeshot, Storm Entity can come in, swing, and then untap next turn if your opponent is still alive. Wirewood Hivemaster is basically just to get a bunch of dudes to swing with, though you won't be able to do anything more with them due to the lack of Predator Dragon. Gaea's Cradle and Regal Force are in there instead of the main to free up more space maindeck for the Elves.

The next section is the toolbox of answers to important problems, namely enchantment and artifact hate (Harmonic Sliver), and resistance to board sweepers (Elvish Champ and Caller of the Claw). If you're wondering why creature hate isn't in here, it's because the only creature you really have to worry about is Meddling Mage, which you can get around 2 ways. Mage naming Grapeshot just means your win condition will be Storm Entity. Mage naming Living Wish or a combo piece is more problematic but manageable thanks to Grapeshot. After you Grapeshot the mage to kill it, you can easily wish for Witness to bring it back for the win. As for multiple Mages...well, I hope you like attacking lol.

The third and final section is stuff that you actually board in, because a 15-card toolbox is just foolish. Of the cards you board in, though, several of them will be creatures, which works well with Living Wish. These creatures will be either Xantid Swarm or Gaea's Herald, both of which do generally the same thing but have their own strengths and weaknesses. Xantid Swarm is immune to Engineered Plague and stops the opponent from doing anything during your turn, which is very significant since it means no Stifle, no bounce, no Brainfreeze, no nothing. However, Xantid Swarm can't get past Chalice for 1 and is a dead card while comboing off since it's not an Elf. By contrast, Gaea's Herald is basically the opposite since it's immune to Chalice for 1, can be wished for game 1 and have an immediate effect, and helps if you draw it during the combo since it's an elf, but it dies to Engineered Plague and there wouldn't be anything stopping your opponent from bouncing or killing it and then countering your spells. Herald also makes you vulnerable to Brainfreeze, but if you're concerned about that you can just cut a Serenity for Gaea's Blessing. Vexing Shusher is a distant third, being basically the same as Gaea's Herald with the upside of being able to force through Wishes and the downside of being extremely mana hungry and basically not fighting Chalice at all. Non-creature options like Defense Grid and City of Solitude are even further down the line since they're unwishable. Ultimately, I think that the choice between Swarm and Herald will come down to both the metagame and personal preference.

The other card that you actually board in is Serenity, which I firmly believe is a great solution since it gets rid of all the stuff that troubles this deck except for burn, boardclearers, and instant tricks. It's not perfect, but I think it's an extremely solid option.

So yeah, those are my revised opinions on the deck.

[TheLion]

Oh sure, Living Wish seems so obvious... But one question: Why don't you merge Viridian Shaman and Monk Realist into Harmonic Sliver? That would save 1 SB slot.

[NCM]

Oh sure, Living Wish seems so obvious... But one question: Why don't you merge Viridian Shaman and Monk Realist into Harmonic Sliver? That would save 1 SB slot.From what I understand about Harmonic Sliver, it doesn't give slivers the ability until it's in play, meaning that the CIP ability won't trigger. If I'm wrong about this though, Harmonic Sliver would be a great option. I'd probably make the extra slot in the sideboard a Wirewood Hivemaster since he seems to still be a good card even without Chord+Dragon and could potentially serve as yet another win condition.

[Jaynel]

From what I understand about Harmonic Sliver, it doesn't give slivers the ability until it's in play, meaning that the CIP ability won't trigger. If I'm wrong about this though, Harmonic Sliver would be a great option. I'd probably make the extra slot in the sideboard a Wirewood Hivemaster since he seems to still be a good card even without Chord+Dragon and could potentially serve as yet another win condition.

Harmonic Sliver on its own does hit artifacts.

[badjuju]

I think Living Wish is a good idea, but it misses on a few points:

Chord of Calling is instant speed and doesn't care about colored mana. Chord of Calling can also be convoked. The deck's aims are completely different from Grapeshot, so I guess I wouldn't even consider it in a list that's aiming for pure speed.

Weird Harvest isn't something can just be tossed aside. Weird Harvest is what wins you the game. The deck doesn't need a toolbox g1 because it generally wins before relevant hate cards come online. Living Wish is 1 card for 1 target, Weird Harvest is 1 card for X targets, meaning you will generally seal the deal if it resolves. Now if Living Wish grabbed an engine, like Glimpse, I'd definitely give it much more praise, but as it is now, I wouldn't put it above Weird Harvest. Sure utility is on your side, but that's the last thing you need when you're gunning for speed. That and you definitely wouldn't want to take out any of your key pieces (Birchlore/Nettlewood/Hermit) and stick em in your board. That'd just be hurting MD consistency and the original reason why this deck was so powerful in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is: yes, Living Wish is good, but don't cut any Weird Harvests for it.

[Wobbles The Goose]

These observations are subject to change after I've tested living wish.

I like living wish, but I'm not sure that it's right for the deck. It sets up this weird tension between putting the toolbox in the maindeck for pacts or in the sideboard for wishes. How many times do you want to be able to wish for a nettle sentinel or heritage druid but can't? Eladamri's Call would avoid this problem, but it seems weak. Also, Weird harvest is pretty broken, but slow in comparison to the rest of the deck. I'm a much bigger fan of the harvest build then Yesmilord, but we can agree on that.

How has Priest been for you? Seems great on turn 1, slow on turn 2, and bad on 3+. I guess with 4 ESGs a turn 1 priest happens more often, but I'm not sure I like it coming at the expense of Symbiote, Visionaries, or sweet precious land.

[NCM]

Chord of Calling is instant speed and doesn't care about colored mana. Chord of Calling can also be convoked. The deck's aims are completely different from Grapeshot, so I guess I wouldn't even consider it in a list that's aiming for pure speed.The bolded part is definitely something I didn't think of. If I were running Hivemaster/Dragon I would definitely consider this.


Weird Harvest isn't something can just be tossed aside. Weird Harvest is what wins you the game. The deck doesn't need a toolbox g1 because it generally wins before relevant hate cards come online. Living Wish is 1 card for 1 target, Weird Harvest is 1 card for X targets, meaning you will generally seal the deal if it resolves. Now if Living Wish grabbed an engine, like Glimpse, I'd definitely give it much more praise, but as it is now, I wouldn't put it above Weird Harvest. Sure utility is on your side, but that's the last thing you need when you're gunning for speed. That and you definitely wouldn't want to take out any of your key pieces (Birchlore/Nettlewood/Hermit) and stick em in your board. That'd just be hurting MD consistency and the original reason why this deck was so powerful in the first place.

What I'm trying to say is: yes, Living Wish is good, but don't cut any Weird Harvests for it.You have a lot of valid points until you get to the bold part. If you look at my list, I have 4-ofs of almost everything in the deck and 3-ofs of the 2-drops and non-elves (I won't lie, I'm not a big fan of Wirewood Symbiote, but I'm sure Priest of Titania is going to change that). I've kept Pact and Glimpse at their max to keep the amount of in-deck searching as high as possible. The only reason I cut Weird Harvest for Wish is that when I play Harvest it's not usually for 3 creatures to win the game but for my one missing combo piece, like a Heritage Druid or a second Sentinel. I can only get big Harvests if I have Priest and 3+ other elves out, at which point I could win the game with pretty much any tutor. Still, I see your point here. Maybe a balance can be reached, like 3 Pact, 3 Wish, 2 Harvest or something.


I like living wish, but I'm not sure that it's right for the deck. It sets up this weird tension between putting the toolbox in the maindeck for pacts or in the sideboard for wishes. How many times do you want to be able to wish for a nettle sentinel or heritage druid but can't?Well obviously running 4 Pacts helps me with searching for pieces that I need just to go off. Aside from that though, I've got plenty of redundant effects to keep me from being completely starved of a way to start my combo. Sentinel+Rangers is still the best engine, 2 elves+Druid can go on their own fine, Symbiote+Visionary+Priest is a great engine...This deck is really such that you can pretty much do fine with whatever combination of elves you end up getting as long as you eventually get Druid+Rangers+multiple Sentinels to power out the win. Glimpse is the true engine that you need here and that can't be fetched with Harvest, Chord, or Wish.


Eladamri's Call would avoid this problem, but it seems weak.Instant speed search for a fixed mana cost seems weak to you? Wow, you have high standards lol. I sort of see what you're saying here since the cost is a problem, but that's really a non-issue.


How has Priest been for you? Seems great on turn 1, slow on turn 2, and bad on 3+. I guess with 4 ESGs a turn 1 priest happens more often, but I'm not sure I like it coming at the expense of Symbiote, Visionaries, or sweet precious land.Priest is very solid. You basically hit it right, it's a bad card to draw while going off, but it's great for setting up. As I mentioned before, it probably has the best synergy with Symbiote of anything in the deck, which is why I have them both at the same number. As for my land situation...well, I do have 4 ESGs lol.

[badjuju]

The bolded part is definitely something I didn't think of. If I were running Hivemaster/Dragon I would definitely consider this.

You have a lot of valid points until you get to the bold part. If you look at my list, I have 4-ofs of almost everything in the deck and 3-ofs of the 2-drops and non-elves (I won't lie, I'm not a big fan of Wirewood Symbiote, but I'm sure Priest of Titania is going to change that). I've kept Pact and Glimpse at their max to keep the amount of in-deck searching as high as possible. The only reason I cut Weird Harvest for Wish is that when I play Harvest it's not usually for 3 creatures to win the game but for my one missing combo piece, like a Heritage Druid or a second Sentinel. I can only get big Harvests if I have Priest and 3+ other elves out, at which point I could win the game with pretty much any tutor. Still, I see your point here. Maybe a balance can be reached, like 3 Pact, 3 Wish, 2 Harvest or something.

And wtf is Hermit? Are we running Exhume -> Sutured Ghoul as our win condition? And Nettlewood? lol

My bad, by Hermit I mean Heritage, and by Nettlewood I meant Nettle. I must've been super-stoned when I wrote this, but connecting the dots would've made what I meant obvious :P

I do know that your list has all of these cards as 4-ofs, but what I'm saying is that Weird Harvest is in the deck so you can consistently power out your Nettle/Heritage combo. Living Wish doesn't do anything in that department, because all of your mana-producing engine pieces are MB.

Priests have been "meh" for me in the deck. I've tried it, and when you go off you usually do it all in one turn. Priest is good if you're willing to pass the turn, but the deck doesn't often do that...and if it does, you probably didn't need priest anyways. You'll also realize once you start goldfishing, that Wirewood Symbiote is ridiculously amazing. Untap and bouncing, untap and bouncing, over and over again is huge in this deck, especially when you're comboing off with Elvish Visionaries and only have one Nettle Sentinel.

Everyone should just sit down with the deck and goldfish it for a few hours. You'll begin to see that creatures and spells that require time to use, aren't that useful at all. The deck is FAST. The beauty of Birchlore and Heritage Druid is that they abuse the fact that creatures do not need to have haste to produce mana. I just don't feel Priest of Titania is necessary anymore, because although the gain is large, it doesn't tap for mana the turn it comes out, meaning it's just another vanilla elf while you're going off. You'll understand what I mean when you play the deck through enough times. And I honestly don't mean this in a condescending way at all, I'm just saying that I went through the same thought process when I was constructing and testing the deck, and playing the deck over and over again led me to these conclusions. (Edit again: I just re-read what you wrote, NCM, and you do have a solid grasp on what the deck needs to combo off. My opinion still stands though: I think Priest is largely unneeded, and would be better if replaced by more business. And by more business, I mean better tutors - like Living Wish, since the deck needs consistency in finding creatures and draw engines, not more consistency in producing mana.)

EDIT: Oh yea forgot -- Something like 4/2/2 or 3/3/2, Pact/Wish/Harvest sounds fine. I'm actually really digging the sound of that configuration a lot. Good catch on Living Wish by the way.

Oh yea another thing -- I'm not even sure if you want to consider Chord of Calling if you aren't running 4 MD Hivemasters. Pact/Wish/Harvest is more than enough for you to combo off with Grapeshot. Chord only excels in departments that involve MD creature tutoring at instant speed, meaning creature board options are more likely (Tar Fiend for example).

[Illissius]

Natural Order is another tutoring option. You can get Regal Force, or any number of huge creatures (which, admittedly, won't make you combo any faster). You have no shortage of expendable green creatures.

[Noman Peopled]

Glad to see someone's working on a Legacy version, since I don't have the time.

Just a few quick thoughts:
edit// ugh, never mind, for some reason I thought Wirewood Herald puts the Elf into play.

While Leyline of Lifeforce doesn't protect Pact or Chord/Harvest, it does protect Regal Force. Maybe worth noting. Although I'm not too sure the sideboard plan shouldn't be switching to aggro(-control), especially since, the plan folds to Stifle unless you also play discard or jank like Dosan.

Considering many Elves are also Druids (Birchlore Rangers, Elves of Deep Shadow, Fyndhorn Elves, Heritage Druid, Llanowar Elves, i.e. 16 in a typical built), what do you think of Gilt-Leaf Arch-Druid as a supplementary draw-engine as well as faux-win? Nice interaction with Entity. Too cute?

Both ideas are thoroughly untested, but I like the deck and if I'm nuts, someone will tell me :)

[NCM]

My bad, by Hermit I mean Heritage, and by Nettlewood I meant Nettle. I must've been super-stoned when I wrote this, but connecting the dots would've made what I meant obvious :Plol I know, I was just joshin ya.


I do know that your list has all of these cards as 4-ofs, but what I'm saying is that Weird Harvest is in the deck so you can consistently power out your Nettle/Heritage combo. Living Wish doesn't do anything in that department, because all of your mana-producing engine pieces are MB.I definitely see what you're saying about this and after more goldfishing, I definitely miss the ability that LSV's deck to grab stuff without having to use Summoner's Pact as a crutch. I guess I sort of had mana cost-induced tunnel vision about the whole thing.


Priests have been "meh" for me in the deck. I've tried it, and when you go off you usually do it all in one turn. Priest is good if you're willing to pass the turn, but the deck doesn't often do that...and if it does, you probably didn't need priest anyways. You'll also realize once you start goldfishing, that Wirewood Symbiote is ridiculously amazing. Untap and bouncing, untap and bouncing, over and over again is huge in this deck, especially when you're comboing off with Elvish Visionaries and only have one Nettle Sentinel.

Everyone should just sit down with the deck and goldfish it for a few hours. You'll begin to see that creatures and spells that require time to use, aren't that useful at all. The deck is FAST. The beauty of Birchlore and Heritage Druid is that they abuse the fact that creatures do not need to have haste to produce mana. I just don't feel Priest of Titania is necessary anymore, because although the gain is large, it doesn't tap for mana the turn it comes out, meaning it's just another vanilla elf while you're going off. You'll understand what I mean when you play the deck through enough times. And I honestly don't mean this in a condescending way at all, I'm just saying that I went through the same thought process when I was constructing and testing the deck, and playing the deck over and over again led me to these conclusions. (Edit again: I just re-read what you wrote, NCM, and you do have a solid grasp on what the deck needs to combo off. My opinion still stands though: I think Priest is largely unneeded, and would be better if replaced by more business. And by more business, I mean better tutors - like Living Wish, since the deck needs consistency in finding creatures and draw engines, not more consistency in producing mana.)I definitely what you're saying, and while it is somewhat slow, I'd still like to have it as an option. Cutting a few from the deck is not a problem by any means. It's not an essential part of the deck but rather a good option, like Time Walk in Type One combo.


Oh yea another thing -- I'm not even sure if you want to consider Chord of Calling if you aren't running 4 MD Hivemasters. Pact/Wish/Harvest is more than enough for you to combo off with Grapeshot. Chord only excels in departments that involve MD creature tutoring at instant speed, meaning creature board options are more likely (Tar Fiend for example).I know, I was just thinking of it as an option. It could also be good for mindgames, like making them think you're going for the Dragon kill instead of Grapeshot.

@ Illusius - Narutal Order isn't a bad idea, but there's not really anything it can do that Chord can't do just as well, if not better. Good find though.

@ Noman Peopled - Leyline is an amazing idea and I feel stupid for not thinking of it. I can't play it in my deck because of Serenity (though I guess I could just play something else) but it's still probably the best option to protect from counters game 2. As for Archdruid, I don't really see anything it can do that Regal Force can't. The only advantage Archdruid has over Regal Force is that he's cheaper.

[Noman Peopled]

@ Noman Peopled - Leyline is an amazing idea and I feel stupid for not thinking of it. I can't play it in my deck because of Serenity (though I guess I could just play something else) but it's still probably the best option to protect from counters game 2. As for Archdruid, I don't really see anything it can do that Regal Force can't. The only advantage Archdruid has over Regal Force is that he's cheaper.
I'm not too sure it's better than Shusher, though. As I said, it only protects your combo if you combo with Regal Force, which not only requires you having a lot of mana but also that you've somehow drawn a singleton or pushed through Glimpse, Pact, or even Chord (possibly requiring even more mana). It dodges EE nicely, though.
Leyline also doesn't protect from spot removal and, most relevantly, Stifle. It does help go aggro, too, though, as many decks play more counterspells than removal, and there are options against mass removal - Vial may be worth looking into as well.

As for the Arch-Druid, I definitely see what you're getting at. He's got his pros: he's a faux-win and cheaper than Arch-Druid. His cons unfortunately outweigh the pros on reflection: he's less reliable than Regal Force, and unreliable as a win (not only do you need four other Druids, combo can win with no land, as can anything with evasion if you're low on life). And he needs Druids played afterwards instead of beforehand, which may not be an option.


Ugh. It's really easy to come up with tech for a deck as customizable as this one, but hard to come up with good tech.

[yawg07]

I honestly (and I know I'll get attacked for this) haven't fallen in love with Priest of Titania for the current style of kill.
It seems sacrilegious NOT to run Priest, but it seems too ... slow.
WHAT? Yes. Honestly, I like to be able to just drop the hammer and explode all in one turn without worrying about needing
to wait a turn for the largest removal magnet in elf history to go active.

In the list I've been running, my general plan vs. countermagic/threshold is to simply board in Choke and Elvish Champion and then go aggro on their ass.

If anyone is interested, here is what I've been working with ...

// Lands
13 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Grapeshot
3 Weird Harvest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 3 Elvish Champion
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 3 Caller of the Claw
SB: 3 Gaea's Herald
SB: 3 Choke

I started off by cloning the winning list for 1.x and adapting the landbase to 1.5.
Then I hated it and wanted to try and just nullify Wasteland effects altogether, may just be a meta call, but the card is DAMN popular where I play.

Honestly, the deck doesn't need very many non-extended cards. o_0
I've tried Natural Order, Living Wish, Eladamri's Call, Worldly Tutor, etc
The best cards are tried and true Weird Harvest and Chord of Calling.

Also, in Legacy, I'd strongly suggest the Grapeshot kill.
If they Stifle it, play E.Witness and get it back. OR just wreck them next turn with an attack.
Dragon is just too vulnerable as a kill, too many 1-cost or free removal. Also, FoW on the win card sucks.

I've only played the deck in two actual tourneys and the lists are drastically different.

22-man I got in Top 8 but lost to the decks biggest nemesis, AGGRO LOAM
9-man I got 1st and was happy :D

After all the testing and the two tourneys, the weakest card is honestly Elvish Visionary, just because of it's being unpredictable.
I'll feel like cutting it, but then the Wirewood Symbiote synergy is just nuts, and sometimes the kill IS at the bottom and
you need to fudge numbers a bit to make sure you don't commit draw-suicide.
17 cards left, eh? Okay, I'll play the 4th Glimpse, and then 3 elves and a Visionary, gg?

I plan on playing it a lot more, it is an absolute BLAST to play.
It also combats hate really well, my SB changes may be ...

-2 City of Solitude
+2 Krosan Grip


---

Just last night, in a game vs. Canadian Thresh, game one I did the combo thing, but "fizzled".
He took his turn and did nothing of importance, staring down 15 elves.
He passed, I tapped cradle, payed for two Summoners pacts, took 7 burn and attacked for the win.
Game two, he boards in the 'clasms/whatnot. I bring in 3x Choke, 3x Elvish Champion.
I get Choke to land, attacking for a few each turn. He kills off my Symbiote so I can't block down the 'Goyf.
I draw and resolve Elvish Champion. Next turn, I Weird Harvest for Champion #2 and now all my elves are not only unblockable, but also clasm proof. Game.

[badjuju]

snip

Thanks for the awesome post, yawg.

After some more thought, the Dragon win might not be as viable. I just like it because it can be used at instant speed, forces them to counter Chord (which doesn't sacrifice anything), and uses Hivemaster in the deck.

I'm not sure I'd say Visionary is the weakest elf, because I'm never sad to see it. In a combo deck without lots of draw, cantripping, or manipulation, Visionary becomes pivotal for finding your key pieces, and drawing even more cards when going off. As you've mentioned before, Visionary has insane synergy with Symbiote, and that alone should warrant the card's inclusion.

But agreed on everything else, especially Priest of Titania.

[Noman Peopled]

I honestly (and I know I'll get attacked for this) haven't fallen in love with Priest of Titania for the current style of kill.
I'm not sure you will. Priest is something the deck simply doesn't need.


In the list I've been running, my general plan vs. countermagic/threshold is to simply board in Choke and Elvish Champion and then go aggro on their ass.
No Jittes? Is there a reason for you not running them?
Gaea's Herald seems ... odd. Any testing experiences? If you go aggro, I can imagine Shusher being a lot better in this spot as it won't eat Snare. While it needs mana to use, it also comes with a 2/2 body. Vial would protect you from countermagic as well, is cheaper, and does combat tricks (and will be killed by EE for 1 along with most of your board).
Heh, I'm assuming you have a lot of blue in your meta? And little combo, from the looks of it ... (What's your goldfish?)

I also agree with cutting Dragon (even in Extended, it always seemed kind of flashy to me). I wouldn't worry about FoW (should be used erlier, else your opponent is facing a bunch of Elves anyway) but removal, kicked Chants, Moat, etc can ruin your day.
I assume you have considered Brain Freeze, which would allow you to piggyback your opponent's combo and ignore your opponent's life total. Grapeshot can get rid of troublesome creatures, though, so if I'm guessing your meta correctly, Grapeshot seems better.


I'll feel like cutting it, but then the Wirewood Symbiote synergy is just nuts, and sometimes the kill IS at the bottom and
you need to fudge numbers a bit to make sure you don't commit draw-suicide.
While that's an issue, I would accept the possibility of fizzling rather than play a card that I feel is suboptimal (although I'm not sure it is). See Dredge or AdN. Especially since fizzling with this deck means you have a lot of Elves and merely have to live another turn. Is there a creature that could act as both win condition and setup card (and is better at it than Arch-Druid :p )?

Hm, against red-based aggro-control with sweepers, I think Fecundity may be better than Elvish Champion or Caller because the former can be tutored as a singleton anyway (one's a must with the amount of Goyfs) and Fecundity makes removal (especially mass removal) a liability if you leave the combo in. (Or, if you play 2 Callers, Fecundity increases your chances of drawing into it.) Of course, this is assuming they don't have Chalices at 1 and 3 (to ill the combo and Shaman, respectively) and the Clasm doesn't allow them to attack for lethal.
What's your metagame? I can see this deck being a poor choice if there's a lot of combo running around ...

[NCM]

Be honest guys, you just hate 2-drops that aren't tutors.:laugh: jk lol

But seriously, the more I play with Priest, the more copies of it I ended up cutting, and the more I realized that synergy with Symbiote and it's general goodness doesn't compensate for the fact that it is slow. I used to think it's role in the deck was analogous to Time Walk in Type One combo - a card that you don't want to draw while going off, but it helps you a lot before then. Now I realize it's more like Darksteel Colossus in Type One combo - a card that you don't want to draw.

Visionary, on the other hand, has been good to me. I have her as a 3-of in my deck and I find that it's an ok configuration. I definitely wouldn't cut it from the deck entirely but I could see going down to 2. Visionary also gets around Chalice for 1, which is somewhat significant. It's not the first thing I want to see while comboing off, but it's still a great thing to have.

I never thought the Dragon kill was particularly good in Legacy. Too much stuff can stop it.

I actually don't like Aether Vial in this deck, and I'm a huge Aether Vial fan, so this is saying a lot. Aether Vial just seems like it could get one of your combo pieces through turn 2 for free, but you have to waste turn 1 to do it. You already have 8 Llanowar Elves and the only thing Aether Vial would really do is give you 4 more that can't attack, tap to Rangers or Druid, or even give you cards off Glimpse. In an extremely control heavy meta I might consider it. Otherwise, I don't recommend it at all.

Fecundity is a very good idea. It was in Zatlkaj's board on it's own and in Saito's list with Blasing Station, presumably for the lulz. For those of us who don't choose to go the aggro route game 2, this is probably the best option against mass removal.

One other thing to remember about Brainfreeze is that it usually doesn't take as high of a storm count to be lethal as Grapeshot. On the other hand, this is a format with Dredge and Gaea's Blessing, so it may be bestto just stick with Grapeshot.


Is there a creature that could act as both win condition and setup card (and is better at it than Arch-Druid :p )?Well idk if this has been mentioned before but Regal Force IS a 5/5...just sayin'...

Also, I just remembered Indrik Stomphowler, which would do the same thing as Harmonic Sliver in my deck but allow me to go mono-green. The downside of this is that it's very unlikely that I'll even be able to play it without Elves already on the board. Thoughts?


Ugh. It's really easy to come up with tech for a deck as customizable as this one, but hard to come up with good tech.This basically sums up the thread.

[Illissius]

There's nothing at all wrong with not liking Priest in this deck. When the deck revolves around pseudohaste from Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid, a two mana creature which does nothing the turn you play it clearly doesn't fit. One thought I had is using Survival as one of the tutors along with a single copy each of Anger and Priest, so you can do crazy Symbiote/Ranger/Priest tricks if you draw it, but doesn't get in the way as much if you don't.

[Noman Peopled]

Be honest guys, you just hate 2-drops that aren't tutors.:laugh: jk lol
That's some evil profiling, man! I also like Cabal Ritual.
Oh, and Goyf.

@ Aether Vial: I think it's something to consider if you really like the combo route and face a lot of blue. Specifically, it's better with Weird Harvest than Chord. Of course, that can be countered, and it makes you more vulnerable to EE at 1 (and helps against Chalice at 1 only on the play).
Plus there's the question if you shouldn't be going aggro in the first place.


Fecundity is a very good idea. It was in Zatlkaj's board on it's own and in Saito's list with Blasing Station, presumably for the lulz. For those of us who don't choose to go the aggro route game 2, this is probably the best option against mass removal.
I actually like it for the combo kill as well. It forces your opponent to have a way to deal with the combo if he wants to EE/Clasm/DD/etc any sizeable amount of Elves and it allows you to chump easily. Again, the question is whether another strategy wouldn't be better. I mean, almost any deck (bar combo without BWish) can whip out mass removal, but boarding Fecundity in any time it might be useful is likely wrong (else it would warrant a maindeck spot, and then we want an outlet, and ... uh ... there's no good one in green, and few synergistic ones overall).

@ Brain Freeze: good point about the lower storm count needed. when is the last time you saw Blessing, though? Freeze can also randomly screw AdN (as well as other combos with few win conditions) and topdeck-tutors. I'd still run Grapeshot probably, but it's a meta thing.
As for Dredge, Freeze still needs fewer storm then Grapeshot. If they're decked, they're decked. Only thing Grapeshot does that Freeze can't is kill a creature or two (unless there's a Bridge in the yard already).
The big plus of Grapeshot I think is that it can be used as disruption vs Mage/Teeg/Canonist and also support the beatdown plan.


Well idk if this has been mentioned before but Regal Force IS a 5/5...just sayin'...
I meant as a combo finish. Like Entity (makes you go "infinite", which may or may not be necessary depending on the situation; and it provides an instant win post-combo provided you had a critter at the beginning of your turn and no opposing chump-blockers). Entity isn't what I'm looking for, either, though. Something that can kill post-combo but doesn't suck for the aggro plan, you know?

@Stomphowler: I had considered it but I think against the decks in which enchantment hate is needed, a white splash (which could also get Chant/Abeyance and Serenity) is easier to support than a 5C hate card. Now, if you want to play for fat primarily and catch-all secondarily, it might be quite good.
How about Wickerbough Elder, though? It's unlikely not to find any targets should you need a power boost. It can destroy stuff long after it's started beating. Opposing Needles should name something else, anyway (and if not, there's always Shamans).

[NCM]

One thought I had is using Survival as one of the tutors along with a single copy each of Anger and Priest, so you can do crazy Symbiote/Ranger/Priest tricks if you draw it, but doesn't get in the way as much if you don't.Survival could make for a very good search engine, if only because it's reusable. Discarding a 2-drop for a combo piece could be a great thing, and the combo you described is a great way to deal with Priest's disadvantages. There are several concerns though.

Card advantage is the most minor issue but still one that should be addressed. There are a lot of ways of getting around it, the one that I like the most being Dryad Harbor since you can basically go from discarding creatures to discarding lands.

Pithing Needle is also an issue. It's unlikely that they'll be packing both Needle and Chalice for 1 against you but either one of these plus Plague, Counterbalance, or a boardsweeper is a lot more likely.

There's also the issue of speed. Running Survival would be great for consistency but it has the same problem Priest does in that it takes up your entire turn 2 which you could just as easily use to win.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of Survival. It opens up a bunch of opportunities like grabbing Caller of the Claw at instant speed after your board is wiped. I guess my problem is just that I'm having trouble visualizing a list.

I thought Survival was banned in Legacy. Man, I'm behind the times.

@ Noman Peopled - Fecundity isn't about which decks can run mass removal but instead it's about which decks have to use mass removal to stop you without significantly changing their gameplan. And I didn't want Stomphowler as a fatty but as utility and I realize that splashing white is a better option. The only reason I tried it was because I wanted to try and consolidate my manabase to being mono-green to fight Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon/Wasteland, which I suppose are minor inconveniences, but still.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Herald stops chalice and counterbalance. Shusher "does", but it doesn't do it so that you can actually still go off. These cards are huge problems and require a maindeck answer.

Vial isn't right for this deck.

Brainfreeze is probably fine in certain metagames (lots of solidarity, maybe?), but you can't piggy back well of the majority of combo decks because you need to race them, not leaving elves untapped during their turn on the hopes that they misplay while killing you. Meanwhile grapeshot has benefits when you are going aggro, kills creatures, dodges Gaea's blessing, and is almost always as lethal.

yawg07, if your metagame has a lot of aggroloam or Thresh w/ red I suggest splashing white for burrington forgetender and orim's chant. Forgetender is a great answer to clasms and devistating dreams. If the removal you are facing is EE, try viridian shaman.

Another card that I really like is Wilt-leaf liege, as it's bigger than champion and survives the pyroclasms in the first place. The conventional aggro plan post board is what really what separates this deck from other combo decks in the format.

I understand your concern about Wasteland. It was a major pain when I first started with it. I think 6-8 fetchlands with 1-2 duals is the way to beat it, while still being able to splash what you need.

On Survival, it's interesting. But not better than the current tutor engines and worthless in multiples. Fetching an anger would be cool, but having to have a mountain is a real pain for this deck, because wasteland is a drag.

[NCM]

Another card that I really like is Wilt-leaf liege, as it's bigger than champion and survives the pyroclasms in the first place. The conventional aggro plan post board is what really what separates this deck from other combo decks in the format.I'm not sure about this. It seems good in theory but an important aspect of Champ is that he also makes them unblockable against Goyf decks (ie. many decks). I think this is another guy that we can put into the "metagame call" category.

[1maarten1]

im testing arround with the list posten on the top of this page. Only changes i made was in the sb -2 city's + 2k.grips and -3 herald +3 shusher. Havent tested it very much yet but it seems nice :) thoughts on his list??

~Maarten

[NCM]

im testing arround with the list posten on the top of this page. Only changes i made was in the sb -2 city's + 2k.grips and -3 herald +3 shusher. Havent tested it very much yet but it seems nice :) thoughts on his list??

~MaartenI don't know about Grips vs Cities (for all I know it's a metagame call), but I'm pretty sure we've established that, in this deck, Gaea's Herald is almost always a better choice than Shusher. It's not nearly as mana hungry and can actually allow you to go off next turn, unlike Shusher who adds 1 onto the cost of all your spells. It's also an elf.

Eh, I guess I might as well post my new list.

Maindeck:
Mana:
5 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendlehaven
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Elves:
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary

Draw/Search:
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Living Wish
2 Weird Harvest

Kill:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grapeshot

SB:
Combo Helpers:
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Storm Entity
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

Toolbox:
1 Elvish Champion
1 Harmonic Sliver

Stuff I Actually Board In:
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Fecundity
3 Krosan Grip

The thing about only running 2 Living Wish is that you can't have a huge toolbox, but now that I think about it more I see that I never really needed one anyway aside from just the essential extra combo pieces. Xantid Swarm is still in there over Orim's Chant simply because I can grab him with Wish. However, if I were running 3 Harvest, 0 Wish, and a partial toolbox maindeck, my board would look more like:

2 Elvish Champion
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Orim's Chant
3 Fecundity
3 Krosan Grip

[Noman Peopled]

im testing arround with the list posten on the top of this page. Only changes i made was in the sb -2 city's + 2k.grips and -3 herald +3 shusher. Havent tested it very much yet but it seems nice :) thoughts on his list??
There's nothing I would change in the maindeck before testing, except maybe fiddling with some numbers (not the engine, obv). Unless you want a Chord version, then you'd probably want Wirewood Hivemaster; or unless you want a splash.

As for the board, I can't say much about that. Having never tested Shusher, I'd have to guess how much it slows down the combo. Gaea's Herald is decidedly better against Chalice (especially when paired with 3sphere). Against Countertop, I suspect removal will become plentiful in both cases, since you spent two mana on not playing combo pieces and CounterTop rapes us all on its own, especially once a 3CC spell is arrived at. In this case, not having to pay for Shusher's ability may be marginally better (again depending on your game plan to a certain degree).
Besides, I'm very susceptible to overly cool stuff so I'' just provide a short list of cards I'd definitely test in the side of a mono-G version (plus the ones already mentioned):
Fecundity
Jitte
Needle (EE, Deed)
Xantid Swarm (dies to removal but that still makes your other targets safer)
Defense Grid (might be better than CoS overall, but there's Snare and CounterTop)
Thorn of Amethyst (what's the master plan against fast combo, anyway?)



@ Danger of Cool Things:
I was thinking about going Leyline/two Regal Force/multiple Fierce Empaths post-board against heavy blue. Someone shoot that one down for me so I don't have to try it :p

[NCM]

Thorn of Amethyst (what's the master plan against fast combo, anyway?)My plan is...oh shit, I don't have one. I guess I could run Orim's Chant instead of Xantid Swarm and use it in response to their draw spell (or in Ad Nauseam's case, the upkeep of the turn after they play AdN)? Thorn is definitely the best option though, save maybe for Brain Freeze on them after they've drawn enough of their deck, but this is unlikely since you'd probably only be running 1 Brain Freeze.


@ Danger of Cool Things:
I was thinking about going Leyline/two Regal Force/multiple Fierce Empaths post-board against heavy blue. Someone shoot that one down for me so I don't have to try it :pThe Timmy in me likes Regal Force and Leyline is a very solid card, but Fierce Empath is so much worse than every other search spell that's been mentioned so far in this thread. On top of that, I really don't see Regal Force ever being run as more than a 1-of ever, except in place of Mycoloth if you're running LSV's list verbatim.

Also, does anyone have any concrete (read: specific) matchup data yet? We really need to sort that out as much as possible in order to fully understand what to have in the sideboard.

[georgjorge]

The deck seems good, but what happens if you just don't draw a Glimpse or it gets Forced ? Without Glimpse, it looks like it would play like a crappy Aggro deck with a lot of unused mana on the board (Heritage, Birchlore, Visionary etc aren't exactly beatdown creatures). Which is why I think the idea of playing Survival is great, as it gives you essentially additional ways to combo out (well, maybe not combo like killing the opponent in one turn, but like gaining insane amounts of card advantage over a short time). To a lesser extent, Natural Order can provide that as well by fetching a Hellkite Overlord or Empyrial Archangel. I'm not suggesting playing four Survival + four Order + Squee + Anger + Overlord, but it seems to me that the amount of cards that make your other cards good (4) is the weak point of the deck.

[yawg07]

See thats the thing though. To combo off, you don't need to BEGIN the chain with Glimpse.
Example:

It is turn 3, you have no glimpse, but it would be a good time to go off.
Lets say that you have 2 Forest Llanowar and Heritage in play, and your hand is ...

Forest
Nettle Sentinel
Birchlore Rangers
Weird Harvest
Summoners Pact

You do this.
Tap Forest (G)
Play Nettle Sentinel ()
Tap 3 Elves (GGG)
Play Summoner's Pact for Nettle Sentinel, untap NS (GGG)
Play Nettle Sentinel (GG)
Play Birchlore Rangers (G)
Tap 3 Elves and your second Forest (GGGGG)
Play Weird Harvest for Nettle Sentinel + Wirewood Symbiote + Regal Force, untap NS ()
Tap the sentinels (G)
Play Nettle Sentinel, untap NS ()
Tap 3 NS (GGG)
Play Wirewood Symbiote, untap NS (GG)
Tap 3 NS (GGGGG)
Use Wirewood Symbiote to return Birchlore Rangers and untap Llanowar (GGGGG)
Play Rangers, untap NS (GGGG)
Tap 3 NS (GGGGGGG)
Play Regal Force, untap NS ()
Draw 8 cards, you should now win. More than likely you have drawn a Glimpse, if not, no sweat. Play guys and attack next turn.
I hold off on playing the forest because sometimes, the Cradle comes along and you'll need it.

If they counter some of the stuff, oh well. Generally, the decks playing FoW are Thresh builds, at least around here.
If they counter you mid combo on game one, you have an army to blow them out with.

A lone Natural Order or a lone Survival Actually go a long way, but in testing Summoner's pact is better than both.
You could honestly play Recycle, as well. Out of all those cards, Survival is the most versatile, but Natural Order is the most explosive.
2GG and an elf to summon up Regal Force and draw 5-10 cards is pretty good. But it you have 5-10 elves in play, you have the mana to Harvest/Chord/Summoners Pact into him anyway.


The normal goldfish turn for the deck is 3.
It can go turn 2, ESPECIALLY with Cradle, it is also fine to wait it out and pop on turn 4.
The maindeck 3x Viridian Shaman have proven VERY effective against Chalice/3Sphere early.

And yeah, combo is usually ME in our meta, haha.
But even against decks like Dredge, if they don't win by turn 2 (which they frequently do not) you can beat them out.

In our meta we DO have a lot of blue, and a lot of stax as well, recently.
The deck holds its own against stax because usually you've only got an artifact or two to fear.
Blue? This is Legacy, it is usually going to be Thresh. If it is, you'll win because of your SB.
This isn't DEFINITE, because of E.Explosives and Clasm, but that is why you have answers in the board.
Landstill is another animal, and The Rock is pretty damn annoying, no lie.
Those decks and the obscene weakness to Aggro Loam's DevDreams is a problem that we'll have to work out.

[Noman Peopled]

My plan is...oh shit, I don't have one. I guess I could run Orim's Chant instead of Xantid Swarm and use it in response to their draw spell (or in Ad Nauseam's case, the upkeep of the turn after they play AdN)? Thorn is definitely the best option though, save maybe for Brain Freeze on them after they've drawn enough of their deck, but this is unlikely since you'd probably only be running 1 Brain Freeze.
I don't know about other decks, but ANT (and TES too, I suspect) will typically cast AdN during their turn because if they didn't do so last turn it was because they couldn't. Especially with Elves in play, they won't want to give you another attack phase. And they'll probe with Chant/Duress first if possible. Chant can also play Fog vs Elves. If you're casting Chant in response to AdN, you better win next turn :(
I agree that Freeze shouldn't be relied upon against combo in any way, as it means you'd have to keep 1U open even if you draw it. I like Thorn, but both TES and ANT can win t1-t2 (not that they always will) and we don't have 0CC accel. Thorn won't be enough.

@ Cool Things: thx ;)


If they counter some of the stuff, oh well. Generally, the decks playing FoW are Thresh builds, at least around here.
If they counter you mid combo on game one, you have an army to blow them out with.
If they counter something mid-combo, they don't know what they're doing, though (or they're snaring). Under normal circumstances, they should counter Glimpse/Weird Harvest.
Around here, we have quite a few blue decks that aren't Thresh. Weird Painter/Dreadnought/Trinket thingies up to UB with discard.


Landstill is another animal, and The Rock is pretty damn annoying, no lie.
Those decks and the obscene weakness to Aggro Loam's DevDreams is a problem that we'll have to work out.
I may or may not agree on us beating blue aggro-control post-board, but imo the question is if it can win vs. blue aggro-control and the decks you mentioned above. Not that it'll be necessary in every metagame, but said meta is kinda volatile around here. Which happens if you have a bunch of casual players as well as dedicated Legacy players showing up. Stifle, Snare, and Extirpate are big here, as is Teeg (for some reason).


Oh well. I'll see if I can trade for Glimpse/Harvest reasonably on Wednesday.

[georgjorge]

@yawg07: Ah, thanks for the explanation, I didn't think the deck could go off without Glimpse as well. So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)...but


If they counter you mid combo on game one, you have an army to blow them out with.

doesn't look so good, as an army of, say, four 1/1s and three 2/2s can be dealt with by most decks, even Thresh (if they have a Goyf and Goose out, you will get to deal only nine damage and have no creatures left in this example).

[1maarten1]

@yawg07: Ah, thanks for the explanation, I didn't think the deck could go off without Glimpse as well. So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)...but



doesn't look so good, as an army of, say, four 1/1s and three 2/2s can be dealt with by most decks, even Thresh (if they have a Goyf and Goose out, you will get to deal only nine damage and have no creatures left in this example).

Even if they counter harvest it wont be to much of a problem.U will have pact also. In my testing ive almost always found a way to play around counter magic. And about the army thing; i found that even if i fizzled i had way more elves then that ;) and with a champion i would tutor for they really die quick ;).

~Maarten

[Wobbles The Goose]

@yawg07: So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)

In yawg's example hand, you should play it differently if you suspect if they have a force of will. Just bait with a weird harvest that turn, then go for the win next turn with pact next turn. I mean, the deck is as difficult to play correctly as any other combo deck, but the strength comes from being fast, consistent, and resilient to hate.

From my build on the first page:

-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Weird Harvest
-1 Gaea's Herald
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Thoughtseize
1 Orim's Chant
4 Elves of Deep Shadow


Most of those numbers are subject to tweeking, but I think this shows an interesting direction for the combo to take. I found in testing that I rarely needed to win do to on the board threats the turn I went off. The scary thing was always the possibility that my opponent dropped moat, pyroclasm, devistating dreams, etc. While this build is at least a turn slower, when you go off you wind up drawing your deck, thoughtseizing them multiple times then chanting them during their turn which is just as lethal.

EDIT:

-1 Llanowar for another Chant. It's really good.

[Noman Peopled]

-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Weird Harvest
-1 Gaea's Herald
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Thoughtseize
1 Orim's Chant
4 Elves of Deep Shadow


Most of those numbers are subject to tweeking, but I think this shows an interesting direction for the combo to take. I found in testing that I rarely needed to win do to on the board threats the turn I went off. The scary thing was always the possibility that my opponent dropped moat, pyroclasm, devistating dreams, etc. While this build is at least a turn slower, when you go off you wind up drawing your deck, thoughtseizing them multiple times then chanting them during their turn which is just as lethal.
That's not a bad idea at all, imho. I wonder if it'd be possible to find another spot for Chant, as it would be essentially the deck's Flame-kin Zealot and is a good piece of disruption on its own. I would still worry about EE and Deed, though; these would have to be gone before the finishing move. Of course, by this point you may have amassed enough cards to go off again next turn. (This is assuming Deed/EE can't be popped to prevent from comboing due to lack of mana, else it wil probably not be in play by the end of the combo anyway.)

Hm.

[NCM]

From my build on the first page:

-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Weird Harvest
-1 Gaea's Herald
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Thoughtseize
1 Orim's Chant
4 Elves of Deep ShadowYour list on the first page has only 1 Grapeshot. Have you found winning to be more difficult without an actual win condition?

But seriously, are you sure making them skip their turn with Chant after you combo off is the best thing? And when you said it was a turn slower, did you mean because you had to pass the turn to win or does it actually not combo off until a turn later? And could you at least run Concordant Crossroads to win on the same turn?

That said, I still think this is a very good idea.

[yawg07]

@yawg07: Ah, thanks for the explanation, I didn't think the deck could go off without Glimpse as well. So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)...but



doesn't look so good, as an army of, say, four 1/1s and three 2/2s can be dealt with by most decks, even Thresh (if they have a Goyf and Goose out, you will get to deal only nine damage and have no creatures left in this example).


Ah, but don't forget you have Symbiote on the table.
Attack with all the Elves and return whatever one gets blocked.
It is only turn 3 here, more than likely they don't have Threshold YET.
In a turn or two, yes, but for now they aren't blocking with that Goose.

But this also shows largely why I like Elvish Champion in the SB, you become unblockable.


I LOVE Caller of the Claw, but I don't ALWAYS have the mana open to do it.
Fecundity is particularly ridiculous, I love that option. And with 4x Llanowar/4x ESG, it is isn't too hard to lay it down turn 2.
HOWEVER, Caller can be tutored for, even at instant speed with Pact/Chord, which make me like it better.
What do you guys think? One or the other? Both? We need some sort of answer to Clasm/Deed/Dreams/Explosives.


Honestly, Symbiote is one of the best creatures in the whole deck.
It made my Dragon Stompy match last Friday a LOT easier, even game one.
When you can keep returning your Viridian Shaman to keep blowing up problem artifacts, you quickly gain the upper hand.


I agree with the one post about the black splash for Thoughtseize, and running Elves of Deep Shadow.
But in MY list, I'm not sure what I'd cut. It sure as hell wouldn't be Grapeshot. I've used grapeshot as good removal on a small fizzle turn before.
I just wouldn't lose the idea of win NOW that Grapeshot easily grants.

[Noman Peopled]

And could you at least run Concordant Crossroads to win on the same turn?

That said, I still think this is a very good idea.
Well, imo if you're running Crossroads you might as well run a storm win instead. I think Grapeshot is more useful than Crossroads without the combo.



But in MY list, I'm not sure what I'd cut. It sure as hell wouldn't be Grapeshot. I've used grapeshot as good removal on a small fizzle turn before.
I just wouldn't lose the idea of win NOW that Grapeshot easily grants.
I can definitely relate. It sounds like a really good idea in theory. But "by now you have practically won, so you pass the turn" always allows for more options than I'd like.
However, in this case I see no particular difficulty. You'll have drawn multiple Thoughtseizes to make sure Chant isn't countered, then Chant on their upkeep. The only options that I can think of they have are:
- popping EE or Deed (which begs the question why they didn't before, or - if they're short on mana - why you couldn't find Shamans)
- CounterTop activation during their upkeep (maybe they couldn't find a 1CC spell or didn't have mana before; they'll still have to topdeck EE)
- Moat/Worship in play (you'll need a solution for enchantments main unless you don't see those two often; Prison shouldn't be problematic)
- play stuff in response (unlikely as you can just Seize their burn or Brainstorm or whatever)
- a large enough evasive army to kill you (don't forget to kick Chant)
- activated abilities that can kill you (SGC and enough mana, may be a problem since Goblins could also have Fanatics and Sharpshooter; you'd have to be low on life already, though)
Of course, the list is hardly comprehensive. I just can't think of any more atm but as experience shows, others will. Needless to say, you need to find that Chant (and not blow it to keep alive), but the same thing goes for Grapeshot. Which is why I'd like to have a tutorable instant-win, preferably one that can be used pre-combo without sacrificing half your board to a random Terror and requiring seven mana.

Currently I'm even searching for a viable sac outlet to utilize Fecundity as a pre-board draw engine in place of Weird Harvest. Best ones I've come up with so far is Goblin Bombardment, or Altar of Dementia for the ones who are as vary of splashing red as I am. Or maybe just Therapy, Tendrils of Despair - although then I'm running out of creatures. Contamination, maybe?
My head hurts. Don't bother commenting unless you see a good idea in this paragraph somewhere ...

Oh, I found Elf Replica. Maybe that's good for something. Costs as much as Stomphowler/Wickerbough and doesn't touch enchantments, but it can beat earlier and can be paid for over two turns. Plus, it's an elf. But not green, I notice.
Nantuko Vigilante is similar but not an Elf and more susceptible to Chalice @0 as well as CounterTop.
Frankly, I'm not satisfied with the enchantment hate the deck has to offer pre-board. I like Shepherd and Zealot more and more.

[Wobbles The Goose]

@noman

I mean, the hope is that you can discard explosives, dreams, deed, etc before they become a problem. Especially after you combo off. Barring real corner cases like slice and dice, these are all sorcery speed and vunerable to discard. Something to consider so that you aren't having to hold mana open for caller or whatnot. I think you could probably even run a second Chant in place of another Llanowar if you wanted, or if you have a lot of storm combo in your metagame.

I recommend Skirk Prospector for your sac outlet with fecundity. Oh, and goblins. Seriously, weird harvest is great in the deck, it helps you recover from removal, combo explosively, and generally go nuts. Often with negligible side effects.

@NCM

I'm not counting the extra "chant" turn. I'm just counting the turn when you can expect to draw your deck and play all your guys. It goes from being a turn 2-3 thing to being more 3-4 thing, especially because you aren't running something like 4 ESGs. But you buy time and breathing room with the discard, which makes up for the slow down.

Concordant Crossroads is interesting, but not great. I tried it out for a while, but it's hard to have a lethal force. You wind up with a lot of tapped elves. Chant gives you "haste" and "untaps" your guys. Plus it protects you as you combo off, disrupts storm combo and you can return it with witness for the next turn.

@yawg07

I really haven't missed grapeshot. One of the reasons your combo might be fizzling may just be due to practice, but I really can't comment on that. All I can say is that in the scenario you posted on page 3, there are much better ways to go off that net you way more mana and cards. That's all I have to go on. This is a difficult deck and I often find myself realizing better sequences upon retrospect. It reminds me a lot of solidarity.

As far as what to cut, our lists aren't that different. But it's also dependent on the decks you expect to see. If you've got trinisphere's all over the place, 3 viridian shamans makes a lot of since. No size fits all. I am just liking chant over grapeshot.

[georgjorge]

Against Deed/Explosives, Abeyance instead of Chant is strong (they can use it in response, but you won't have much on the board at that time). However, it is a crucial turn too slow against combo :cry:

[Wobbles The Goose]

Abeyance seems weaker than chant in almost every conceivable way, except maybe for protecting your combo as you start to go off. Even then, you often don't have the white mana to reliably cast it early and you need to have grapeshot to win that turn.

It's not fast enough against combo, it doesn't stop deed or explosives in play, it does not stop them from top decking explosives/deed/moat if you pass the turn, you cannot combo with it, it does not stop lethal counterattacks, it does not stop goblin sharpshooter.

It does draw a card.

In short, do not play abeyance. :)

[yawg07]

Okay, I built a version of the deck with the black splash.
Thoughtseize is an excellent tool for this deck to adopt.

However, your chant list ... why run chant and attack?
Why not just Thoughtseize their answers out and kill with Grapeshot right then?
It seems like -1 Orim's Chant, +1 Grapeshot is not only more efficient, it is quicker and gives no chance for recovery.

[Noman Peopled]

Okay, I built a version of the deck with the black splash.
Thoughtseize is an excellent tool for this deck to adopt.

However, your chant list ... why run chant and attack?
I thought the reasoning was to have a card that's more useful before the combo or at least more useful in certain/difficult matchups like combo (obv the mana base would need adjusting).

[yawg07]

I thought the reasoning was to have a card that's more useful before the combo or at least more useful in certain/difficult matchups like combo (obv the mana base would need adjusting).

Right, but he only runs one Chant. And his combo involves Chant.

[Noman Peopled]

Right, but he only runs one Chant. And his combo involves Chant.
That's why I suggested a second one (Eternal Witness would work as well). Besides, combo won't do much after a bunch of Thoughtseizes. Well, it's not likely (depending on the specific deck) ... But Grapeshot will do nothing against combo - even one Chant is sometimes CA and always an emergency button, unless they bait with disruption first (then it's a Time Walk).
Not saying it's necessarily the way to go, just that the idea has merit. It seems like a solid sb plan at least, if you have the mana base.

[badjuju]

I'm a bigger fan of a black splash. Thoughtseizes go a long way in any matchup, especially for ripping out any permanent-based hate.

As for a sac outlet, Saito ran Blasting Station. Not sure if that's what you're looking for (since your guys' versions don't have Hivemaster to abuse it with), but it should be thrown out there I think.

[Noman Peopled]

As for a sac outlet, Saito ran Blasting Station. Not sure if that's what you're looking for (since your guys' versions don't have Hivemaster to abuse it with), but it should be thrown out there I think.
Unless you're short on Taigas and fetchies, Goblin Bombardment would work better against everything but pro-red. Which is not a problem unless paired with Worship.

I also think Saito was gunning at least partly for Elves with that card, which is not really an issue in Legacy. I love the idea of Fecundity+outlet but by the time I got that to work consistently, I was running dangerously low on creatures. Plus, when I fizzled it was baaad (Glimpse leaves you with a fast clock, Fecundity/Bombardment does not). Without Fecundity, an outlet isn't needed.

[Wobbles The Goose]

However, your chant list ... why run chant and attack?

The answers given are all correct. Orim's chant plays so many roles in the deck than grapeshot, and you can definitely run a second. I'm probably going to.

This is a good way to think of it:
Orim's Chant is to Elves as Remand is to Solidarity.

Remand is really useful for allowing Solidarity to kill while ramping to a lower storm count, because you can remand the brain freeze copy back. It's still the brain free that kills you opponent, but it helps. Ultimately, Orim's chant doesn't kill your opponent either, your elves do. But Orim's chant makes this considerably easier by insuring your opponent doesn't get a turn before you get to untap and kill them. Like Remand, Chant also protects your combo on the turn you go off. I don't want people StPing Nettle's or Harvest Druids, or countering glimpses. Chant throws a must counter out there. Finally, chant slows down dangerous plays, like remand. Obviously it has this effect against combo, but it also delays cards like Magus or Trinisphere that you can sometimes see coming.

Meanwhile, grapeshot doesn't. Nomad Peopled had a good list of the corner cases where you absolutely need to "win now", but they are really limited. Besides those few situations where you can't win just with chant, grapeshot is sometimes useful for killing a few creatures. Unfortunately, creatures come bigger in legacy then they do in extended. In LVS's report he basically removes the grapeshot every game post board, except against elves where it is better for killing their guys early. It really isn't a good defensive tool against creature hoards in legacy because those decks aren't popular, with the exception of goblins. Maybe it's tech in that matchup, but I don't think that makes it warrant main deck inclusion.

[DalkonCledwin]

what are this archetypes answers for the following: Cursed Totem, Engineered Plague, Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck), some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler, instant speed artifact removal targeting the staff, or in the case of builds with creatures as win conditions, swords to plowshares?

[yawg07]

what are this archetypes answers for the following: Cursed Totem, Engineered Plague, Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck), some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler, instant speed artifact removal targeting the staff, or in the case of builds with creatures as win conditions, swords to plowshares?

Reading threads is tech.
No one is playing Staff, really.
And we're discussing removal right now.
The generic "OMG you have creatures? How the fuck do you win, because ___ can destroy one or more of your creatures?!?!" post isn't needed here.


I dunno, Thoughtseize seems to solve all the same problems chant does, for me.
If you are afraid someone is going to disrupt you, lead with Thoughtseize. *shrug*
I see why Chant is good, but you have to make yourself vulnerable to Wasteland to even run the black splash correctly.
Running both Black and White opens the deck up to new hate that it doesn't want, but gives it more options.

I think Thoughtseize is a necessary evil, but I'm not sold on Chant yet.
Keep up the testing, though! Build it and take it to real tourneys! That's what I've been doing, it is a ton of fun and it does well.

This color/card rivalry is good, actually. People are actually interested in the deck and if it starts doing well, we'll get Gwb Builds and Gbr builds.

[DalkonCledwin]

Reading threads is tech.
No one is playing Staff, really.
And we're discussing removal right now.
The generic "OMG you have creatures? How the fuck do you win, because ___ can destroy one or more of your creatures?!?!" post isn't needed here.

Okay I will read the thread, but I probably won't find what I am looking for... at any rate... you didn't really answer the question. You simply dodged it. Not to mention that wasn't simply a generic "OMG you have creatures? how the fuck do you win, because ___ can destroy one or more of your creatures?!?!" post... it specified specific cards that totally obliterate your combo and quite nicely. However since you specifically think I will find what I am looking for I will read the entire thread and see what I can find. Hope I do, otherwise this thread is in for a massive rebuttal when I am done. Understand that I come from a place where brutal debate is looked kindly upon :D

[Wobbles The Goose]

Cursed Totem- Doesn't see considerable play, as it does little to any other deck. Bigger artifact problems are chalice for 1 or trinisphere. Builds have been running 0-3 Veridian Shamans maindeck to deal with these threats. If this is a big deal in your metagame, the inclusion of more veridian shaman in the SB is necessary, with the option of krosan grip or indrik stomphowler also being thrown around. Obviously, build the deck to your metagame, especially if you expect to see such specific hate cards.

Engineered Plague- This is an interesting one. The first thing to realize is that this card has really fallen out of favor of late. Look at the lists running black that are top 8ing. They aren't running plague in the main or the side. That said, it's still at least a potential problem. Popular answers include krosan grip, stomphowler, or a lord (usually elvish champion or wilt-leaf liege) in the sideboard. Fortunately, no popular deck is running plague in the main anymore, so a main deck solution isn't that important. Your meta may vary.

Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck)- Two good responses to this are either witness grapeshot back into your hand or attack the next turn with all your elves. Even if they get a chance to survive, you've likely played out a lethal amount of elves to attack with the next turn, with plenty of blockers as well. Stifle's more likely to be pointed at Regal Force, which is a pain, but no worse then having it countered. Which leads me to:

Some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler-
Ah counterspells, bane of combos existence. No easy answer to this. Some builds are running 4x thoughtseize 2x chant to protect themselves when going off, but more adventurous builds throw chance to the wind. The thing to remember is that you can often restart the combo at a moments notice, combo off through a single counterspell, or just start beating down with elves. Unlike, say, infernal tutor getting forced after you LED, you still have a game plan after you've played out your hand: attack with elves.

Swords to plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Snuff Out, Mogg Fanatic- It's fairly hand dependent. Sometimes killing the right creature at the right time is brutal, sometimes it even wins the game with a pact. Sometimes there never was a right time to kill any given creature to really stop them from going off. Most of the time though, it's annoying more than anything. Most builds have 6-7 tutors in the deck, as well as a considerable amount of card drawing. The loss of a given creature isn't that bad. Maindecking Thoughtseize and Orim's chant really decrease the risks of this, but it's an issue for the deck. I don't think it's enough to make it not viable, and the deck isn't as reliant on a single creature (heritage druid) as it might seem. I personally don't like the chords of calling builds that focus on finding a devouring monster to win for this reason, but I don't think it throws the archtype out.

In general those "specific cards that totally obliterate your combo and quite nicely" are big problems. How much they impact the win percentages of a given matchup is too early to tell. There is no "standard decklist" yet, and no strong gauntlet data. But do give the deck a play, it's a lot of fun and it's hard to appreciate the complexity of the play decisions with out it.


@yawg07 I don't think that Chant necessarily opens you up to more wasteland problems. I mean, it doesn't have to be any more so than Grapeshot/Thoughtseize, and one savannah is really only going to be fetched with the chant in hand. That said, you also mentioned that you have more wastelands around you and at least a few magus of the moon. In that metagame, I think the more forests you play the better. I really like your build for that metagame. But in a more Combo/thresh metagame I think a 3 colored build for chant and thoughtseize has some potential.

general: wrap in vigor is officially a "cute" answer to pyroclasm, devastating dreams, deed, and engineered explosives

[Mental]

Ok guys I'm loving this deck. It's ridiculously fast, consistent, and it never fizzles since you can just smash the next turn. I want to share my list and try to cement some things down:

7 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
2 Gaea's Cradle

For real, 17-18 lands is the way to go. In extended you can play 16, but with the additional LD in this format, and with the presence of much stronger control decks, mulliganing is much more devastating.

4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel

The engine of the deck. I don't see how you can play less than 4 of each of these and be consistent.

3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Bread and butter elves. I like 6 producers of Green to speed up my kill, but I can see why someone would play Elves of the Deep Shadow instead.

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Weird Harvest
1 Regal Force

The other half of the engine.

1 Grapeshot
1 Eternal Witness

This is the kill I would play. Grapeshot is always going to resolve because you can witness it, bounce witness with symbiote, and witness it again...so there's basically no way for them to get around it.

2 Viridian Zealot
2 Thoughtseize

I really want to fit 2 more Thoughtseize's in here, but I'm not sure what to cut.

I'm much more worried about Counterbalance than Counterspells. A single counterspell can be fought through, and you go off early enough that multiples probably won't be online (daze will, but you can play through that). The thing is, the control MU is actually pretty good: You can just go straight up aggro on them if they make you fizzle, and postboard they're really in a fix, not knowing if you're going to bring in protection or Jittes/Imperious Perfects.

About Chant: Why do we need it? We're about as fast as combo, so I'd think that 4 Thoughtseize + our speed is probably enough to have a decent MU. Plus, isn't Duress good enough? I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn? I'd just go with Duress if I had to run 6 pieces of protection.

I can't see Predator Dragon being good, but hopefully that idea has been fully dropped by now, since it's really vulnerable and Grapeshot is basically superior in every way.

A question about Wirewood Hivemaster: the card does not seem very good. If you're going to abuse it, you need a sac outlet, which is frankly danger of cool things. Mirror Entity has other uses, sure, but is it really worth playing entity and hivemaster just to hope you draw them both? I think they're both unnecessary - once you have the number of elves in play to abuse either, you've probably won. Fecundicity, though, that's a great sideboard card.

Speaking of sideboards, what do peoples look like? Mine isn't cemented at all.
These seem to be the popular choices:
Umezawa's Jitte/Imperious Perfect/Elvish Champion - the anti control suit. They take it counters, and you bring in these.
Fecundicity - the anti removal suit. You bring in these when they bring in Pyroclasms, Devestating Dreams, etc.
Thoughtseize, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge (?) - Anti counterbalance and chalice.
I'm sure I'm missing a ton of stuff.

[yawg07]

@Cathal83: Sorry about that. I realized you were asking a legit question, I just was still pissed about debating with people over the damn altered cards/copyright bullshit.
I was out of line, my bad. This is a new deck, so questions are gonna come pouring in, I have to be ready for that.

@Wobbles: Yeah you're right, our list differences do come down to metagame.
On Wednesday, I'll be running the green version, and on Friday, a B/G version, I'll let you guys know how it does!
We usually have a 5 rounder on Wednesday and a 4 rounder on Friday.



This is the kill I would play. Grapeshot is always going to resolve because you can witness it, bounce witness with symbiote, and witness it again...so there's basically no way for them to get around it.

Not quite.
Keep in mind, you cannot bounce Witness with Symbiote, she is a human.
With Mirror Entity, yes of course, because it makes all your stuff elves, even Regal Force.

[Mental]

Oops, that's right. In that case it may be worth including a more solid kill, because Grapeshot/Witenss can be disrupted by just FoW + Stifle or 2 Stifles. Predator Dragon can kill any time which is nice, but a smart player will just keep :w: untapped to deal with it. I still think with all the Ad Nauseum combo around, it's worth playing the 1 Grapeshot as it really improves your Ad Nauseam, Aggro, and even Counterbalance Thresh MUs. But against decks packing Stifle we may want something more concrete, like Wirewood Hivemaster + Mirror Entity, which would, I guess, also fix up the Grapeshot/Eternal Witness finish. Or is that too many things to fit into the decklist?
It does seem like it could possibly be overkill.

[Wobbles The Goose]

[QUOTE=Mental;292561
About Chant: Why do we need it? We're about as fast as combo, so I'd think that 4 Thoughtseize + our speed is probably enough to have a decent MU. Plus, isn't Duress good enough? I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn? I'd just go with Duress if I had to run 6 pieces of protection.
[/QUOTE]

It's not really a "color splash", in the same way that grapeshot isn't a splash. It's most useful as a kill card and somewhat more then grapeshot early.

I'm back down to 1x Chant after including Gaea's herald back in the main.

The big reason for not including duress is diving top. It would be sweet if you could just use discard to protect yourself in order to attack, but an explosives or a deed or what not on top of the deck is a stupid way to lose.

"I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn?"

I'm not sure what you mean. You chant them during their upkeep the turn after you go off, so there are basically no outs they can draw.

[Mental]

It's not really a "color splash", in the same way that grapeshot isn't a splash. It's most useful as a kill card and somewhat more then grapeshot early.

I'm back down to 1x Chant after including viridian shaman.

The big reason for not including duress is diving top. It would be sweet if you could just use discard to protect yourself in order to attack, but an explosives or a deed or what not on top of the deck is a stupid way to lose.

"I know that Chant is versatile, but is it versatile enough to warrant a color splash AND not being able to stop them from playing Balance the next turn?"

I'm not sure what you mean. You chant them during their upkeep the turn after you go off, so there are basically no outs they can draw.

I mean that I know it helps once you've gone off, but a) it's hit by counterbalance, b) it doesn't stop them from playing Counterbalane (it does for a turn I guess).

[yawg07]

You have to think though, If they FoW and Stifle, they've used up 3 cards, and it is probably turn three.
Dealing with all the elves may be a problem at this point, don't forget, if you are Grapeshotting for lethal, you probably have ~14-15 elves on the table.
Red Thresh will capitalize on this, games two and three with 'clasm/explosives.
But you'll have boarded in AND drawn all your hate if it gets to that point.

If they had double stifle AND the two blue open, ouch, sorry for your luck.
But still, don't forget your army.

[Mental]

If that's the case, then we can assume that some combination of Hivemaster/Fecundicity are necessary in the sideboard to protect your army. If you've already drawn your deck, Hivemaster is probably the better option. What about playing Caller of the Claw as a 1 of in the board? It's probably unnecessary, but it could be interesting.

[yawg07]

If that's the case, then we can assume that some combination of Hivemaster/Fecundicity are necessary in the sideboard to protect your army. If you've already drawn your deck, Hivemaster is probably the better option. What about playing Caller of the Claw as a 1 of in the board? It's probably unnecessary, but it could be interesting.

I play 2-3 of them, they are pretty good. Sometimes I like Fecundity better, sometimes Caller.

[badjuju]

@Mental

I don't know if the deck actually needs more than one combo win condition because, frankly, the deck doesn't have any room for it. I am a big fan of Hivemaster, though I can understand why people are opting for decklists without it (going for speed as well as the absence of Chord). I like the idea of Claw, cause the card could mean GG in the right situations.

Also, regarding the Dragon kill. Yes, there is always the StP issue (and now Snuff Out thanks to Team America and Eva Green), but you don't sacrifice anything. If they want to counter your Dragon, they will be countering your Chord. If your Dragon resolves, there's a good chance you'll have insect tokens to devour, leaving your board risk-free. That's just a small benefit of running that version. However it seems that everyone has pretty much decided on the Harvest + Grapeshot/Orim's Chant build. I will still be testing Predator Dragon just so we can have those results around.

[Mental]

Ok, so let's discuss the merits of Chord of Calling then. It does seem nice, I'll admit, because it can a) Find the win b) Find missing combo parts, and c) Find Caller of the Claw postboard, which may end up being very important. But here's my problem with it:
With Heritage Druid in play, the Convoke Ability is basically meaningless. You don't draw off Glimpse when you use it, and, amazingly, it costs the same to fetch and play a 1 drop with Chord as with Harvest, and Harvest is also an extremely versatile bomb when going off (and seriously, who cares if your opponent can fetch up some Tarmogoyfs? The game's over anyways, and you can definitely beat down FTW through 3 Tarmogoyfs if your entire deck is in play). So, frankly, I just don't think it's necessary or worth the investment to play.

[badjuju]

Ok, so let's discuss the merits of Chord of Calling then. It does seem nice, I'll admit, because it can a) Find the win b) Find missing combo parts, and c) Find Caller of the Claw postboard, which may end up being very important. But here's my problem with it:
With Heritage Druid in play, the Convoke Ability is basically meaningless. You don't draw off Glimpse when you use it, and, amazingly, it costs the same to fetch and play a 1 drop with Chord as with Harvest, and Harvest is also an extremely versatile bomb when going off (and seriously, who cares if your opponent can fetch up some Tarmogoyfs? The game's over anyways, and you can definitely beat down FTW through 3 Tarmogoyfs if your entire deck is in play). So, frankly, I just don't think it's necessary or worth the investment to play.

You have to look at it in context.

-Chord is amazing because it's instant speed and will win you the game if you have 8 creatures on the board and access to 9 mana, regardless of comboing off or not. Many times I wait for my opponent to tap out for whatever reason, respond by convoking my board, dropping a dragon and then killing them the next turn.

-You don't draw off Glimpse, because generally you don't need it. With the Dragon kill, you don't need to dig nor draw. If you have Chord, you will win because all you're doing is tutoring for the kill.

-I realize that this strategy is vulnerable to creature kill, but unless the kill is Snuff Out or StP, there is no way that 20/20 Dragon is dying.

I've had positive experiences is all I'll say. I'm not saying it's better than Grapeshot kill, I'm just still testing it. I would suggest you give it a shot too. It's a lot better than it seems on paper.

[Mental]

You have to look at it in context.

-Chord is amazing because it's instant speed and will win you the game if you have 8 creatures on the board and access to 9 mana, regardless of comboing off or not. Many times I wait for my opponent to tap out for whatever reason, respond by convoking my board, dropping a dragon and then killing them the next turn.

-You don't draw off Glimpse, because generally you don't need it. With the Dragon kill, you don't need to dig nor draw. If you have Chord, you will win because all you're doing is tutoring for the kill.

-I realize that this strategy is vulnerable to creature kill, but unless the kill is Snuff Out or StP, there is no way that 20/20 Dragon is dying.

I've had positive experiences is all I'll say. I'm not saying it's better than Grapeshot kill, I'm just still testing it. I would suggest you give it a shot too. It's a lot better than it seems on paper.

Ok, you make a good case I guess. I'll test it out. I don't think more than 2 are necessary because between Glimpse and the 2 you play, you shouldn't have much trouble finding one when you need to win.
What's your list right now?

[cletus]

What is the minimum number of lands that you could run?

Would it be such a bad thing to run 4x Land Grant? In addition to lowering the land count you can also get a 1x Bayou (or any other G dual for that matter).

Also, with 4 Elvish Spirit Guides in the deck, Crop Rotation could be fantastic in chaining Gaea's Cradles.

Multani's Acolyte seems like it could be Elvish Visionary 5 + 6 if needed.

Finally, Mike Hron did fairly well at the PT - his list had 2 Cloudstone Curios. Just food for thought.

[Mental]

What is the minimum number of lands that you could run?

Would it be such a bad thing to run 4x Land Grant? In addition to lowering the land count you can also get a 1x Bayou (or any other G dual for that matter).

Also, with 4 Elvish Spirit Guides in the deck, Crop Rotation could be fantastic in chaining Gaea's Cradles.

Multani's Acolyte seems like it could be Elvish Visionary 5 + 6 if needed.

Finally, Mike Hron did fairly well at the PT - his list had 2 Cloudstone Curios. Just food for thought.

Land Grant can be countered, severely neutering a deck that often only has 1 land in its hand.
ESG isn't played in most versions of this deck as far as I know - It's not very good, and it's an elf only in name.
Cloudstone Curio is really, really, win more. It's just unnecessary beyond belief: Think about it. Once you have Glimpse down, if you can generate 3 mana to play Curio, you still need a Heritage Druid and some amount of Nettle Sentinels/lots of other elves to win because you'll keep bouncing your elves and you'll need 3 untapped at once to generate mana, which you can't do with say, 4 elves in play and Curio if you already tapped 3 of them to play Curio. It doesn't really do to much - this isn't Glimpse + Kobolds.

[badjuju]

Ok, you make a good case I guess. I'll test it out. I don't think more than 2 are necessary because between Glimpse and the 2 you play, you shouldn't have much trouble finding one when you need to win.
What's your list right now?

2...Chord? or 2 Dragon?
Chord acts as another creature tutor as well as a win condition tutor. I don't need to "go off", I just need to produce enough creatures to convoke for either Regal Force or Predator Dragon. My list hasn't changed much because of two reasons: 1) I haven't had time to thoroughly test this deck against Legacy decks (I've been testing a lot more against Extended) 2) It's packed full right now. If I could manage to cut some stuff and add in 4 Thoughtseize, the list would be golden. At the same time, I don't want to risk my mana base to Wasteland, so it's still debatable.

(btw the list is virtually Saito's list from Berlin)

Dragon Elves

Lands:

15 Forests
2 Gaea's Cradle

Creatures:

4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Predator Dragon

Spells:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Chord of Calling

SB:
none atm, still considering my options. Note that the board can be extremely diverse, as you can Chord for any creature you want. Tar Fiend is an excellent answer to control btw.

Once again I must emphasize the bonuses of instant speed tutor.
-Use as protection.
-Use as an answer to your opponent tapping out.
-Use to force your opponent to tap out EoT or waste a counter before you go off.
-General use: tutors for a combo piece.
-General use: tutors for a win condition.
-No risk to your creature. Since Chord is "put into play", they have no idea what you are tutoring for, making it a must-counter.

This goes hand in hand with Wirewood Hivemaster (the REAL reason why I prefer this version). He just produces so many tokens you don't even need Glimpse to just go beats.

[Wobbles The Goose]

I mean that I know it helps once you've gone off, but a) it's hit by counterbalance, b) it doesn't stop them from playing Counterbalane (it does for a turn I guess).

A) If they get a counterbalance for 1 down, you can't really combo anyway. I mean, the best you can do is fetch a Gaea's Herald, combo out, try to chant during their draw step, and attack the next turn.

B) Preventing counterbalance one turn is better than trying to combo through it. That doesn't happen often.

[badjuju]

A) If they get a counterbalance for 1 down, you can't really combo anyway. I mean, the best you can do is fetch a Gaea's Herald, combo out, try to chant during their draw step, and attack the next turn.

B) Preventing counterbalance one turn is better than trying to combo through it. That doesn't happen often.

I guess this could also count as a positive for Chord.

STILL, I'm not trying to shove Chord down anyone's throat, I'm just saying that it should be tested.

Also for anyone that cares --
Just because LSV won PT Berlin doesn't make his list the best one. In fact, many people agree that it was the worst of the bunch. It depends on so much to go right, and if Kenny didn't have to mulligan 3 times in a row, Tezzerator would've totally destroyed Grapeshot Elves. I do realize the circumstances in Legacy are much different, but for those who don't keep up with extended, this is a little tidbit. Also, Chord for Orzhov Pontiff = GG for the mirror match.

[Mental]

2...Chord? or 2 Dragon?
Chord acts as another creature tutor as well as a win condition tutor. I don't need to "go off", I just need to produce enough creatures to convoke for either Regal Force or Predator Dragon. My list hasn't changed much because of two reasons: 1) I haven't had time to thoroughly test this deck against Legacy decks (I've been testing a lot more against Extended) 2) It's packed full right now. If I could manage to cut some stuff and add in 4 Thoughtseize, the list would be golden. At the same time, I don't want to risk my mana base to Wasteland, so it's still debatable.

(btw the list is virtually Saito's list from Berlin)

Dragon Elves

Lands:

15 Forests
2 Gaea's Cradle

Creatures:

4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Hivemaster
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Regal Force
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Predator Dragon

Spells:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Chord of Calling

SB:
none atm, still considering my options. Note that the board can be extremely diverse, as you can Chord for any creature you want. Tar Fiend is an excellent answer to control btw.

Once again I must emphasize the bonuses of instant speed tutor.
-Use as protection.
-Use as an answer to your opponent tapping out.
-Use to force your opponent to tap out EoT or waste a counter before you go off.
-General use: tutors for a combo piece.
-General use: tutors for a win condition.
-No risk to your creature. Since Chord is "put into play", they have no idea what you are tutoring for, making it a must-counter.

This goes hand in hand with Wirewood Hivemaster (the REAL reason why I prefer this version). He just produces so many tokens you don't even need Glimpse to just go beats.

I agree with most of your post, but the last part doesn't quite follow. Are you saying that a straight beatdown path using Hivemaster is viable? Because you play no sac outlets. Or are you talking about the combo of Predator Dragon + Hivemaster?


B) Preventing counterbalance one turn is better than trying to combo through it. That doesn't happen often.
Ok, but you could just have them discard it.

[badjuju]

@Mental

A lot of people are putting a large emphasis on comboing off. With Hivemaster, I'm saying you can just play out your hand if you don't even have Glimpse, and have 10 damage on the board. This is especially good against other aggro-control decks that don't have access to board sweeping effects.

[cletus]

Land Grant can be countered, severely neutering a deck that often only has 1 land in its hand.
ESG isn't played in most versions of this deck as far as I know - It's not very good, and it's an elf only in name.
Cloudstone Curio is really, really, win more. It's just unnecessary beyond belief: Think about it. Once you have Glimpse down, if you can generate 3 mana to play Curio, you still need a Heritage Druid and some amount of Nettle Sentinels/lots of other elves to win because you'll keep bouncing your elves and you'll need 3 untapped at once to generate mana, which you can't do with say, 4 elves in play and Curio if you already tapped 3 of them to play Curio. It doesn't really do to much - this isn't Glimpse + Kobolds.

If they are countering Land Grant, you should be happy. Watching the coverage from Berlin, you really only need 1 land, 2 max, to combo off on turn 2, especially if you are running Elvish Spirt Guides.

The Guides are not useless, they generate mana when drawn off Glimpse in addition to accelerating on turn 2, if speed is what you are after. You're correct that they are an elf in name only. In this deck they might as well read 'Pitch Forest' or 'anti-Daze.'

Also, you misrepresent the uses of Curio. In Hron's deck they serve as a combo kill with Essence Warden, or act as extra Symbiotes to get the draw engine online. Therefore they aren't 'win-more' - Curio has multiple roles when you can't get Symbiote-Visionary or Glimpse.

[badjuju]

What is the minimum number of lands that you could run?

Would it be such a bad thing to run 4x Land Grant? In addition to lowering the land count you can also get a 1x Bayou (or any other G dual for that matter).

Also, with 4 Elvish Spirit Guides in the deck, Crop Rotation could be fantastic in chaining Gaea's Cradles.

Multani's Acolyte seems like it could be Elvish Visionary 5 + 6 if needed.

Finally, Mike Hron did fairly well at the PT - his list had 2 Cloudstone Curios. Just food for thought.

That's actually an interesting idea. I know rockout here has posted a list with Crop Rotations and ESGs, but if you combine ESG with Land Grant with Crop Rotation, you might be getting something pretty potent. I'm not sure if that's a bit overkill though.

I would like to have Multani's Acolyte, but the deck just doesn't have enough room right now I don't think.

I like the idea of Curio, but it's not what the deck needs right now.

[Noman Peopled]

I thought about Chord but it's much more at home in Extended than in Legacy. It makes the combo slower as Harvest can complete the engine on its own, some mana provided. Hivemaster+Chord+bullet is also a legitimate mirror plan in Ext - not so in Legacy.
On a related but slightly different note, Elves in Legacy doesn't have as much to gain from a controllish silver bullet approach. Disruption starts t0, combo is faster by 1.5-2 turns, and stalling is a less viable strategy because of faster clocks (Dreadnought), cheaper or faster disruption (Chalice t1), and better draw as well as recursion engines.
Elves really needs to go off as early as possible, which means we'll have fewer Elves available in matchups that we can't slow-roll. An unchecked Harvest for 2 pretty much guarantees to put us into position to go off next turn (or make a decent attempt). Chord does not.

Chord also requires more permanents in play before it starts being useful. One would feel compelled to play Hivemaster, but again, a Swarm strategy works much better in a format without routine t1-t2 wins and t0 counters as well as t1 Chalices (well, it's more consistent in Legacy) and cheaper removal.

Let's also not forget that Weird Harvest is at least tempo advantage most of the time (even if you have to pass), and card advantage if your opponent doesn't get another turn. Harvest turns some situations into wins where Chord would merely allow us to pass the turn in a good position, and similarly turns some awkward situations into good positions where Chord would merely allow us to chump another turn.

In general I think our toolbox should be as minimal as possible in order to increase consistency - key to winning early on a regular basis, but also to winning through discard and counters.

Lastly, Chord is kind of an odd card. If you're way behind, it's bad. If you're way ahead, you probably don't need it.
//edit: I have been wrong before, though.


We still have Pact as an instant-speed option to draw singletons, even if those have to be green.



//edit:
@ Land Grant:
I'm aways vary of showing my hand to my opponent, but this is one of the decks that is well-suited to benefit.

@ Crop Rotation:
Seems at least solid. Note that the decks lives of Elves, though, and going below a certain number is dangerous. Still, it "counters" Wastes and gets Cradles.

@ Acolyte:
There's no room, imo. You only really need one cantrip Elf to abuse with Symbiotes.

@ Curio:
Great, now my hurt heads even more ;)

@ ESG:
I'm not sure if there's any confusion over this, but Gatherer says ESG is an Elf Spirit. So yeah, all the stuff that follows.

[badjuju]

I thought about Chord but it's much more at home in Extended than in Legacy. It makes the combo slower as Harvest can complete the engine on its own, some mana provided. Hivemaster+Chord+bullet is also a legitimate mirror plan in Ext - not so in Legacy.
On a related but slightly different note, Elves in Legacy doesn't have as much to gain from a controllish silver bullet approach. Disruption starts t0, combo is faster by 1.5-2 turns, and stalling is a less viable strategy because of faster clocks (Dreadnought), cheaper or faster disruption (Chalice t1), and better draw as well as recursion engines.
Elves really needs to go off as early as possible, which means we'll have fewer Elves available in matchups that we can't slow-roll. An unchecked Harvest for 2 pretty much guarantees to put us into position to go off next turn (or make a decent attempt). Chord does not.

Chord also requires more permanents in play before it starts being useful. One would feel compelled to play Hivemaster, but again, a Swarm strategy works much better in a format without routine t1-t2 wins and t0 counters as well as t1 Chalices (well, it's more consistent in Legacy) and cheaper removal.

Let's also not forget that Weird Harvest is at least tempo advantage most of the time (even if you have to pass), and card advantage if your opponent doesn't get another turn. Harvest turns some situations into wins where Chord would merely allow us to pass the turn in a good position, and similarly turns some awkward situations into good positions where Chord would merely allow us to chump another turn.

In general I think our toolbox should be as minimal as possible in order to increase consistency - key to winning early on a regular basis, but also to winning through discard and counters.

Lastly, Chord is kind of an odd card. If you're way behind, it's bad. If you're way ahead, you probably don't need it.



We still have Pact as an instant-speed option to draw singletons, even if those have to be green.

-Note that Chord decks can go off on turn 2 as well. Turn 3 is the most common, but turn 2 is definitely still a possibility. The deck needs the same nut-draw that Harvest/Grapeshot needs, so it's not that far off. The deck is far from a controllish, silver-bullet variant.

-The bullet plan is just an added bonus. I don't think that the Chord version is "slow-rolling". It plays a turn slower than the Harvest version, but is backed by a lot more support and a lot less "all-in" cards. In an example scenario, you could dump out your hand on turn 2 or 3, Chord for Tar Fiend, empty your opponent's hand, and sit on the board with a huge creature.

-For sure the card is less explosive than Harvest, but comes with a different box of benefits that makes it far from inferior.

[cletus]

Here's a hypothetical list built purely for speed.

12
9 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle

30
4 Heritage Druid
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Regal Force
1 Eternal Witness

18
4 Land Grant
3 Crop Rotation
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
2 Weird Harvest
1 Grapeshot

It has no disruption or silver bullets, just tries to combo out as soon as possible, ideally turn 2. Lotus Petal could fit in somewhere - that along with the Spirit Guides let you play the Regal Force with no mana floating, because instead of drawing more Forests you draw mana that can be played that turn to continue going off. Its just another line of play that opens up when you don't have as many lands.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Ok, but you could just have them discard it.

True, but I think the deck still wants some sort of win condition. Chanting them during the upkeep is the closest you get to a straight time walk, which is what you need to win. Discard is great before going off and pretty good after, but it doesn't seal the game.

You don't want to lose to a brainstorm putting pyroclasm on top of the deck after you've gone off.

All the thoughseizes in the world do not protect against that, only Grapeshot, Goblin Bombardment or Orim's Chant will. Probably in that order. It's kind of like Flame-kin zealot in ichorid. Do you need to have a zealot in the deck? No, not really, you can just pass the turn with a million zombies in play. But the ability to topdeck answers to such a swarm are so numerous that you can't rely on 4x Cabal Therapy to win the game for you.

@cletus
Is land grant better than a sac land? You are going to draw hands with land grant and a gaea's cradle that aren't going to have a first turn play. While it might untap nettle sentinels once while going off, additional copies are going to be just the same as lands. It also makes it a lot harder to play around force of will because you can't bait spells effectively. Also, sometimes it gets countered. Reducing the land count is great in theory, but much worse in practice

Vitalize vs Crop Rotation: First, I don't think the deck probably has room for either of these cards. Even minor disruption is too important. That said, Vitalize is going to do basically everything crop rotation does, and: if it gets countered you don't lose your cradle, you can block, and it allows for a bigger attack once you've payed for your pacts.

Lotus Petal: You can usually cast Regal force with little to no mana floating, because it's going to untap your nettles anyway.

That said, speed isn't the answer to everything. The vast majority of turn two kills are on the draw, giving you opponent plenty of time to play cards like chalice or counterbalance that you can't possibly beat with a pure speed build.

[DalkonCledwin]

Cursed Totem- Doesn't see considerable play, as it does little to any other deck. Bigger artifact problems are chalice for 1 or trinisphere. Builds have been running 0-3 Veridian Shamans maindeck to deal with these threats. If this is a big deal in your metagame, the inclusion of more veridian shaman in the SB is necessary, with the option of krosan grip or indrik stomphowler also being thrown around. Obviously, build the deck to your metagame, especially if you expect to see such specific hate cards.

In the Build of Red Death that I am working on, I fully intend to be running Cursed Totem, as it helps against Aluren, affinity (to a lesser extent), the flash-hulk variant that has recently popped up in my local meta... as well as this deck. Though I do agree, Viridian Shaman does appear to be the best answer to Cursed Totem. However by the time you manage to get a Cursed Totem destroyed, the damage may already have been done, as the deck that I run, (namely Red Death) could very easily have a Engineered Plague in play killing all of your other elves as well, or a second Cursed Totem. Also if this deck does take off, I seriously think it will see considerable more opposition in the form of hate cards such as Cursed Totem and Damping Matrix....


Engineered Plague- This is an interesting one. The first thing to realize is that this card has really fallen out of favor of late. Look at the lists running black that are top 8ing. They aren't running plague in the main or the side. That said, it's still at least a potential problem. Popular answers include krosan grip, stomphowler, or a lord (usually elvish champion or wilt-leaf liege) in the sideboard. Fortunately, no popular deck is running plague in the main anymore, so a main deck solution isn't that important. Your meta may vary.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20927

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20564

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20271

just 3 suicide lists that did fairly well in the past 2 months, all of which ran differing amounts of Engineered Plague, but they ran them none the less. I realize Suicide may not be the "Most Popular" but it is still popular by any stretch of the imagination, and still features Engineered Plagues.


Stifle (assuming it is a storm version of the deck)- Two good responses to this are either witness grapeshot back into your hand or attack the next turn with all your elves. Even if they get a chance to survive, you've likely played out a lethal amount of elves to attack with the next turn, with plenty of blockers as well. Stifle's more likely to be pointed at Regal Force, which is a pain, but no worse then having it countered. Which leads me to:

Some form of counterspell countering the Glimpse of Nature or other enabler-
Ah counterspells, bane of combos existence. No easy answer to this. Some builds are running 4x thoughtseize 2x chant to protect themselves when going off, but more adventurous builds throw chance to the wind. The thing to remember is that you can often restart the combo at a moments notice, combo off through a single counterspell, or just start beating down with elves. Unlike, say, infernal tutor getting forced after you LED, you still have a game plan after you've played out your hand: attack with elves.
Fair enough...


Swords to plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Snuff Out, Mogg Fanatic- It's fairly hand dependent. Sometimes killing the right creature at the right time is brutal, sometimes it even wins the game with a pact. Sometimes there never was a right time to kill any given creature to really stop them from going off. Most of the time though, it's annoying more than anything. Most builds have 6-7 tutors in the deck, as well as a considerable amount of card drawing. The loss of a given creature isn't that bad. Maindecking Thoughtseize and Orim's chant really decrease the risks of this, but it's an issue for the deck. I don't think it's enough to make it not viable, and the deck isn't as reliant on a single creature (heritage druid) as it might seem. I personally don't like the chords of calling builds that focus on finding a devouring monster to win for this reason, but I don't think it throws the archtype out.

What about those builds that only run 1-of's their win condition (such as 1-of Predator Dragon) or whatever? What happens of that gets destroyed? I do see your point about Thoughtseize and Orim's Chant... and those are some very good cards to be running.


In general those "specific cards that totally obliterate your combo and quite nicely" are big problems. How much they impact the win percentages of a given matchup is too early to tell. There is no "standard decklist" yet, and no strong gauntlet data. But do give the deck a play, it's a lot of fun and it's hard to appreciate the complexity of the play decisions with out it.

I would love to give the deck a try. Unfortunately I am not particularly skilled with fast combo decks (Aggro / aggro-control are more my speed).


@Cathal83: Sorry about that. I realized you were asking a legit question, I just was still pissed about debating with people over the damn altered cards/copyright bullshit.
I was out of line, my bad. This is a new deck, so questions are gonna come pouring in, I have to be ready for that.

Understandable I suppose.

[Wobbles The Goose]

In the Build of Red Death that I am working on, I fully intend to be running Cursed Totem, as it helps against Aluren, affinity (to a lesser extent), the flash-hulk variant that has recently popped up in my local meta... as well as this deck.

If you're running red death, I would not be too concerned about this deck. It is almost certainly your easiest possible matchup, as you've got hymn, targeted creature removal, wastelands AND e plague out of the board. As I said way, way back on the first page "Decks like eva green, deadguy and red death are just horrible matchups. I seriously doubt that this deck can win those matchups without considerable luck." I mean, unless that "flash"-hulk list is particularly strong, there's gotta be a better sb card than cursed totem (Leyline of the void?).

In such an environment, maxing out on Wilt-leaf liege seems like the way to go, if you were really gung-ho on playing elves. Still, not a hospitable environment for the deck and it'd probably be better to bring another deck. So it goes.

[Sims]

Also if this deck does take off, I seriously think it will see considerable more opposition in the form of hate cards such as Cursed Totem and Damping Matrix....


I would seriously choke on my Pepsi if I started to see lists rolling in at deckcheck running Cursed Totem or Damping Matrix in any capacity. There are, I believe, much better hate cards to be running than the above. Totem will shut down the mana production en masse and bounce abilities of symbiote, but that leaves an army of elves that are still being played, perhaps even with Champions/lords in games 2 and 3. They may be underwhelming without their mana abilities to swarm the table but it's still a lot of dudes to contend with, thus I would think that the generic sweepers, plagues, and overall spot removal on key components would be more helpful than a card which is not useful in very many matchups. Granted, if your environment is chock full of Survival, Aluren, and things of the like that rely on their creature abilities then by all means, Totem it up.

Damping Matrix on the other hand, falls to a significantly worse problem. With matrix on the board I might not be able to activate a Symbiote, but all of the Druid and Ranger tricks are Mana Abilities (unless I am sorely mistaken?) and thus Matrix does nothing to them.

[DalkonCledwin]

there's gotta be a better sb card than cursed totem (Leyline of the void?).

Oh I run that as well :D


I would seriously choke on my Pepsi if I started to see lists rolling in at deckcheck running Cursed Totem or Damping Matrix in any capacity. There are, I believe, much better hate cards to be running than the above. Totem will shut down the mana production en masse and bounce abilities of symbiote, but that leaves an army of elves that are still being played, perhaps even with Champions/lords in games 2 and 3. They may be underwhelming without their mana abilities to swarm the table but it's still a lot of dudes to contend with, thus I would think that the generic sweepers, plagues, and overall spot removal on key components would be more helpful than a card which is not useful in very many matchups. Granted, if your environment is chock full of Survival, Aluren, and things of the like that rely on their creature abilities then by all means, Totem it up.

Damping Matrix on the other hand, falls to a significantly worse problem. With matrix on the board I might not be able to activate a Symbiote, but all of the Druid and Ranger tricks are Mana Abilities (unless I am sorely mistaken?) and thus Matrix does nothing to them.

You got me on the Damping Matrix, that does indeed not affect Mana abilities... However on the other hand, yes my local meta does run Aluren, and it has a deck that is essentially a slower version of Flash Hulk that utilizes Carrion Feeder and Mogg Fanatic as its primary path to victory. So actually having the Cursed Totem does seem to be a viable answer. Not to mention that there is an affinity deck in my meta and to a lesser extent Cursed Totem does shut down parts of the Affinity deck (namely the Ravager).

However might I ask, how you are playing more than one or two elves a turn if you can't use your elves activated abilities via the cursed totem?

[Sims]

Sometimes all it takes is one or two a turn. It'll be slow and small clock at first, but it will gain strength the longer the opponent gives it. Glimpsing before casting an elf or two will help locate shaman or a cradle, which significantly speeds up the deck even at a few critters a turn. Weird Harvest or Pact finds Shaman easily, which in turn, makes the Totem goes away, and then the deck will explode. Even if you are running Totem maindeck and it neuters my game 1, game 2 will likely see Champions and/or Wilt-Leaf Lieges brought in, making every creature cast a threat.

I see Totem as a significant speed bump, that will assuredly slow the deck down to a crawl, but not beat it single handed, nor would I expect to see it hardly ever as it seems much to narrow a hate card to see play outside of a few very specific metagames (mine not being one of them). In any case, even one to two critters a turn can stall and chump block long enough for a Cradle or Shaman to be found.

[kicks_422]

I've been goldfishing a Chord version a bit, with the Hivemasters as posted by Yesmilord. I changed it a bit -dropped one Forest and have these as Chord targets:

Regal Force
Predator Dragon
Flame-Kin Zealot
Indrik Stomphowler

It's been... Well, cool. I'll try out a Weird Harvest version next.

[Maveric78f]

Primal Command isn't the disruption card the deck has been searching for?

Predator dragon kill is simply awful. Flame-kin is OK. Regal Force is cool, Indrik WTF? Isn't viridian zealot stricly superior?

The best kill according to me is Kamahl (can be good to struggle against deed/pyroclasm effects too).

[Jaynel]

Indrik WTF? Isn't viridian zealot stricly superior?


Not against Engineered Plague on Elves. But then again, you won't be seeing many Engineered Plagues in game 1. If the sideboard isn't that tight, then I think Zealot should probably be in the maindeck and Indrik Stomphowler should be in the board.

[Maveric78f]

Grips/Primal Commands are in the board because your second worst enemy is humility. But 1 Indrik in the board can be cool I admit with all the tutors we play.

[yawg07]

Actually I've been testing a number of Thorn of Amethyst in the SB.
The card doesn't really hinder this deck very badly and it messes with the normal combo decks as well as a few others.

If you have a strong opener in a G/b list, turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Thorn ensures you'll have time to set up and win.
If you are playing Mono Green, you may even have the ESG to even drop it turn 1.

In one G/b game, I did just that, Turn 1 Thoughtseize (actually nabbed Chant, was happy), then Thorn on turn 2 vs. a TES player, it tripped him up for a few turns.
The TES player was no expert, of course, I mean this is MWS, but regardless of how good of a TES pilot you are, if you don't have mana, you don't win.
In those turns I drew some decent elves, then began to combo off on my turn.
Also, don't forget, if it really becomes a problem, you can remove it yourself with Shaman.

Just figured I put it out there, it's an option.

[Noman Peopled]

I think the key to a consistently disruptive post-board strategy is to run eight pieces between maindeck and sideboard. The space is limited; Amethyst barely touches Elves and does slow opponents down - however, it doesn't do so against t1 wins or - half the time - t2 wins (against combo, you're probably going first, though, so that might be not so relevant). That's not counting opposing disruption which is arguably suboptimal vs Elves, but what're they gonna board? Also, maybe they kept a mana heavy hand.
I'd prefer a card that relies a bit less on circumstances (despite having it brought up myself already).

Another question: in what matchups would Thorn be boarded in? If it's only combo, maybe we should consider more versatile options that could also be used against decks heavy on disruption.

(Oh, and if you have lots of Eva Green/Red Death in your meta, maybe Compost would be a good idea.)

[badjuju]

I think the key to a consistently disruptive post-board strategy is to run eight pieces between maindeck and sideboard. The space is limited; Amethyst barely touches Elves and does slow opponents down - however, it doesn't do so against t1 wins or - half the time - t2 wins (against combo, you're probably going first, though, so that might be not so relevant). That's not counting opposing disruption which is arguably suboptimal vs Elves, but what're they gonna board? Also, maybe they kept a mana heavy hand.
I'd prefer a card that relies a bit less on circumstances (despite having it brought up myself already).

Another question: in what matchups would Thorn be boarded in? If it's only combo, maybe we should consider more versatile options that could also be used against decks heavy on disruption.

(Oh, and if you have lots of Eva Green/Red Death in your meta, maybe Compost would be a good idea.)

I think faster combo is one of our worst enemies, therefore making Thorn amazingly good in those matchups. The artifact will slow them down enough for us to pull out a win.

As for Maveric's conclusion - the Dragon kill is far from "awful". It may be awful against the right decks, but it's also a blowout against the others. Indrik plays around plague. I think FKZ is fine. Regal Force is probably needed just for the gas. I dunno about Kamahl. Both Dragon and FKZ say: we win now, negating any problems versus Pyroclasm.

[Mordel]

Indrik stomphowler costs five mana and coincidentally most of your mana comes from elves...so that means you will have to wait a bit to deal with a plague. Chord be damned, just run grip, wickerbough elder or a lord.

[yawg07]

ELVES Tourney Report!
4 Rounds, 14 People, 4-1 then Top 2 split

Okay, we had a smaller turnout than usual, bah.
But the meta was packed with Ad Nauseam and Aggro Loam.
Haha, time to run the guantlet!

Here was the list I ran:

// Lands
13 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Weird Harvest
1 Grapeshot

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Elvish Champion
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Caller of the Claw
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 1 Fecundity


Round ONE
Opponent: Dragon Stompy

Game 1
He drops moon and makes my cradle usless, but my forests and mana elves have to do their thing.
He gets me down to lose on the next turn and I begin the combo with Glimpse and rip some good creatures and Pacts.
Combo out with Grapeshot.

Game 2 - Out 4x Elvish Visionary, In 2x Caller of the Claw, 1x Fecundity, 1x Viridian Shaman
He mulls, sighs, and opens with Needle on Symbiote. I play Llanowar and pass turn.
My hand is excellent ... Caller, Weird Harvest, Nettle Sentinel, Cradle, Heritage Druid, and that Llanowar + Forest
Even if he had the timely Pyrokinesis, Caller of the Claw would have saved my ass.
At any rate, he can't seem to find an artifact but gets dragon, too little to late, I combo out with Grapeshot.

R 1-0, G 2-0


Round TWO
Opponent: RG/b Aggro Loam

Games 1 & 2 I get totally raped out of existance with turn 1/2 Dev Dreams, didn't even have a chance.
Couldn't draw a land for 5+ turns after he Dreams either game.

R 1-1, G 2-2


Round THREE
Opponent: ANT

Game 1
He combos me out turn one, ouch lol

Game 2 - Out 3x Viridian Shaman, In 3x Thorn of Amethyst
Wow, good hand. Forest, Forest, ESG, Thorn, Nettle Sentinel, Birchlore, Summoner's Pact
Forest ESG Thorn, bam, game was over. He stumbled over that for a while while my elves attacked.
He resolves AN and is at 9, he needs good cards to win. Card #1? Ad Nauseam, Card 2? Tendrils. w00t!

Game 3 - Out 3x Visionary, In 3x Elvish Champion
NO WAY! Forest, ESG, Thorn, Nettle Sentinel, Nettle Sentinel, Elvish Champion, Weird Harvest
He opens with Land, Chrome for blue. I draw Forest and go turn one Thorn. This elicits a "So fucking gay!" from him.
I attack with the Sentinels once and get him at 16. He manages an Ad Nauseam, draws a bunch of stuff he cant play, then AN putting him at 5.
I draw a card, play a third land, and smash down Elvish Champion and swing for 6! :D

R 2-1, G 4-3

Round FOUR
Opponent: Sligh

Game 1
He burns key guys and such, so I never get to combo.
But I DO get to win with an ESG, a Shaman, and a Sentinel

Game 2 - Out 2x Viridian Shaman, 4x Elvish Visionary - In 3x Elvish Champion, 2x Caller of the Claw, 1x Fecundity
He starts it off burning as usual, but stalls out at 2 mountains and cannot Flamebreak.
He keeps the hordes down, as well as my life. I have to risk it and drop Callers at the end of his turn regardless of mass removal worry.
It pays off and I rip summoners pact into Elvish Champion for the 12 point win.

R 3-1, G 6-3

Top 4
Opponent: UG/w Thresh

Game 1
I open with Llanowar, he with Top.
I play Heritage Druid, then Cradle and Visionary, on his next turn he drops Meddling Mage and names Sentinel.
Blah, no biggie. Next turn I Glimpse and start a small chain to try and overwhelm with dudes. It pays off. I get about 5 more guys in play and 2 more glimpses in hand.
He takes a turn and does nothing of relevance. I cast Glimpse next turn, he FoWs, I cast the other. I start to go into the part-combo again, he scoops. Too many guys.

Game 2 - Out 4x Visionary, 2x Shaman, 1x Birchlore, 1x Symbiote - In 3x Choke, 3x Elvish Champion, 2x Krosan Grip
He opens with Tundra, Ponder. Gets agitated and passes turn.
I give a turn one Forest, Llanowar and pass. He Swords my Llanowar and passes, in an effort to slow me down.
Not an abysmal choice, I need a few more turns to draw more land. No matter, I keep playing guys, including TWO Elvish Champions.
Now he drops Explosives, but couldn't activate. Problem, because I land Choke, explosives never goes off. Game.

R 4-1, G 8-3

Top 2
Opponent: RG/b Aggro Loam

I offer split, he takes, I breathe sigh of relief.



There you have it! :D The deck is just so much fun and it works very well.
I had crazy luck in the combo game, but that's what you have to hope for.

[rufus]

ELVES Tourney Report!
...
Round TWO
Opponent: RG/b Aggro Loam

Games 1 & 2 I get totally raped out of existance with turn 1/2 Dev Dreams, didn't even have a chance.
Couldn't draw a land for 5+ turns after he Dreams either game.
...

Thanks for the report. I'm a bit surprised that Aggro Loam is such bad news for the deck. -4 Forest, +4 Chrome Mox seems like it would have helped here. How does it affect the deck's other matchups?

[yawg07]

Thanks for the report. I'm a bit surprised that Aggro Loam is such bad news for the deck. -4 Forest, +4 Chrome Mox seems like it would have helped here. How does it affect the deck's other matchups?

Honestly, you're probably right. Although, I'm not sure I'd run four.
I think a few Chromes may help this decks land destruction "problem".
If I can borrow some from someone on Friday, I'll give them a shot.

[Wobbles The Goose]

I dunno about Kamahl. Both Dragon and FKZ say: we win now, negating any problems versus Pyroclasm.

I don't see how Kamahl could possibly be better than mirror entity.

@ yawg07

One option is to run more land as well, either in the main deck or sideboard.

[kicks_422]

Yawg, has only been running one Grapeshot ever been a problem? I mean, when you need combo off, do you always find it?

[1maarten1]

Yawg, has only been running one Grapeshot ever been a problem? I mean, when you need combo off, do you always find it?

Ofcourse, it happens that the shot is on the bottem of your deck but then again. By the time ur comboing u dont HAVE to find ur grapeshot. U will have so many little dudes on the field that u can easyly kill him with ur creatures.

[Nightmare]

I don't see how Kamahl could possibly be better than mirror entity.

@ yawg07

One option is to run more land as well, either in the main deck or sideboard.

You can Summoner's Pact for Kamahl. You can't for Mirror Entity. It's the same reason you're running Regal Force over Slate of Ancestry.

[kicks_422]

On that note, how about 1 Vigor? Makes your dudes Clasm-proof.

[Noman Peopled]

On that note, how about 1 Vigor? Makes your dudes Clasm-proof.
Not t2 it doesn't. At least not reliably. It's like protecting yourself from cheap burn with Natural Spring.
T2 Vigor is possible but with that kind of mana, Weird Harvest or Regal Force would give you enough creatures to rebuild in a blitz next turn, and they are more useful if we're not facing sweepers. Or facing non-damage-based sweepers.

[1maarten1]

Okay, I built a version of the deck with the black splash.
Thoughtseize is an excellent tool for this deck to adopt.

However, your chant list ... why run chant and attack?
Why not just Thoughtseize their answers out and kill with Grapeshot right then?
It seems like -1 Orim's Chant, +1 Grapeshot is not only more efficient, it is quicker and gives no chance for recovery.

Im using the maindeck u posted a few posts before the one i quoted above. But what did u got for the elves and the seizes??? I'd like to give them a spin :).

~Maarten

[Top Deck]

seems like a fun and interesting deck. apparently something similar won a pro-tour. pro-tour berlin 2008.

[Twoshirty]

Hey guys! I have been testing this deck for a moment now and this is the list I have settled on so far.

Main Deck

13 Forest
1 Pendlehaven

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Wirewood symbiote
4 Llanwar elves
4 Fyndhorn elves
4 Birchlore ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

4 Summoners Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Weird Harvest
1 Grapeshot

Now thats the main deck, and the side board would be meta dependant.

What strikes me as wild is that the deck pretty much looks like the ext. Deck with spirit guides, and is kind of balls out with no viridian shamans. But the deck is tuned so well ( I mean the ext version) that its hard to really make any significant changes. I mean I have tried alot of things: The acolyte dude that draws a card and has echo, sylvan messenger, Wood Elves, (which I really like) Quirion ranger, (who I hated so) Scryb Ranger, Devoted Druid, among other things, and its hard to get the deck to work any better. I havent tried cradle yet, but if i can get a few people to approve than I certainly will, and have also thought about bayous for thought seize out of the board (you would also change fyndhorn elves to elves of deep shadow.) It is just so hard to make a change that makes the deck better i guess. WOW.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Just to update this:

Quiron Ranger and Burning wish are absolutely awesome. Wish in particular is a simply inspired addition that serves as glimpses 5-8 and a win condition. Quiron is usually +2 mana, which is well above the curve.

[Shabbaman]

What do you cut? Visionary and a Glimpse?

[Wobbles The Goose]

visionaries, a glimpse, grapeshot, weird harvest/chord of calling are all expendable because you have burning wish.

Oh, and go buy a Mobilize for your sb. It's completely insane.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Just to update this:

Quiron Ranger and Burning wish are absolutely awesome. Wish in particular is a simply inspired addition that serves as glimpses 5-8 and a win condition. Quiron is usually +2 mana, which is well above the curve.

Burning Wish saves a lot of slots but is slow as balls in this deck if youre going for Glimpse. I didnt do enough testing to find anything conclusive but it was closer to a 'meh' than 'ZOMG amazing' than I had hoped, IIRC. Still a solid idea.

Quirion Ranger should be like a 5 of IMO.

[mercc]

visionaries, a glimpse, grapeshot, weird harvest/chord of calling are all expendable because you have burning wish.

Oh, and go buy a Mobilize for your sb. It's completely insane.

What decklist with Burning Wish in it is better than the ones without?

And what does mobilize do for you and against what decks?

[Shabbaman]

Wishing for Mobilize seems like a nice trick to generate a ton of mana. I'm not sold on moving Glimpse to the wishboard, that makes it more unlikely to set up a chain early in the game. But I'll try it, haven't got those Burning wishes for nothing :) The main issue I have with Burning wish is that it doesn't help you against Counterbalance or Devastating dreams.

[rufus]

Instead of Burning Wish, it seems like the deck might be better off running blue for Mystical Tutor, and it can leave all four of the glimpses in the deck. The deck also seems relatively well-suited to running Pact of Negation, and then Brain Freeze and Stroke of Genius as win conditions.

[Noman Peopled]

The deck also seems relatively well-suited to running Pact of Negation, and then Brain Freeze and Stroke of Genius as win conditions.
I don't know about Pact. If for some reason you fizzle, it's useless, and it basically sucks if you're in beatdown mode, the possibility of which is one of the deck's selling points in Legacy. You could conceivably side them out; for siding in vs control, I'd probably try to strengthen the beatdown plan.
Stroke of Genius is interesting, as it can double as draw; as a win condition, however, it seems sub-par. Maybe a two-of so you can use the first one for draw? Should be tested, but not without some disruption md. Barring the draw aspect, Grapeshot will pretty much always be better. It can kill MM/Canonist, so it's not irrelevant itself.
I wouldn't use Brainfreeze, as you don't want to keep mana open and piggy-backing is the only thing it does significantly better than Grapeshot (unless you see a lot of Worship/Rule of Law, I guess).

[Shabbaman]

If you have room for pact I'd go with maindeck Thoughtseize instead. Mystical tutor isn't so bad, but also slow. Spoils of the vault might do the same trick, but faster. Worldly tutor on the other hand might be worth trying, as it lets you untap Nettle sentinel and gets a creature on top (good for stringing creatures after glimpse). It won't net you a glimpse, but it could grab a Regal force.

As for the sideboard, wouldn't Leyline of lifeforce help against CB?

[yawg07]

LoL (wow great acronym) is also great vs. Chalice.
Plus, in a deck full of Elves, it isn't hard to cast if you find it later.

[Noman Peopled]

Spoils of the vault might do the same trick, but faster. Worldly tutor on the other hand might be worth trying, as it lets you untap Nettle sentinel and gets a creature on top (good for stringing creatures after glimpse). It won't net you a glimpse, but it could grab a Regal force.
As for the sideboard, wouldn't Leyline of lifeforce help against CB?
Spoils seems worth pursuing at the very least (note: if that works out, screw WTutor). Using Gilt-leaf Palace instead of fetchies might not be a bad idea then, considering Thoughtseize is so much better than Duress.

I actually suggested Leyline in a thread somewhere (could've been the Souce but don't quote me on that), where it never quite caught on.
Look at it like this: versus control/aggro-control, Leyline doesn't protect the combo, just the beatdown plan (unless you happen to draw Regal Force which might not be a bad sideboard plan). And even that is questionable, as control can plausibly deal with a bunch Elves with devastating results if the Elf player can't refuel. I would certainly prefer discard or Shusher vs counters.
As for Chalice, Shusher arguably works better (protects your Glimpses, for one). Herald is probably worse but has the huge upside of being an Elf. Since even a mini-combo is a very valuable thing to have vs Chalice decks, I'm not sure I'd use it over Shusher, though. (Of course SPact opens some neat possibilities here.)
This is all just theory though; if anyone has some playtesting on this, I'd be happy to know.

[sunshine]

Some number of Chrome moxen and/or Lotus Petals might be solid in this deck, has anyone tried testing them?

[Noman Peopled]

Some number of Chrome moxen and/or Lotus Petals might be solid in this deck, has anyone tried testing them?
Yeah, they hurt consistency, especially if you run Thoughtseize.

[Shabbaman]

Look at it like this: versus control/aggro-control, Leyline doesn't protect the combo, just the beatdown plan (unless you happen to draw Regal Force which might not be a bad sideboard plan). And even that is questionable, as control can plausibly deal with a bunch Elves with devastating results if the Elf player can't refuel. I would certainly prefer discard or Shusher vs counters.

The whole point is that Leyline could keep you from being CB locked. Shusher can get Glimpse resolve, but you have to pour mana in it for every spell. That makes it difficult to chain creatures. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone been enthousiastic about Leyline ever, and probably with good reason. At least discard will help in other weak matchups.

[Noman Peopled]

The whole point is that Leyline could keep you from being CB locked.
But it still does nothing to protect your actual combo unless you draw Regal Force and try baiting several times (to tap your opponent out and proceed to going off through "Chalice @1") or at least draw your win. It might be more prudent to try and strengthen your aggro route another way.
Leyline's preferable to nothing, sure, and should definitely be tested imo, as it has the neat side effect of also completely shutting down Chalice. I myself don't really like Shusher for the very reason you stated.
Then again, Grip probably wouldn't be worse against both Chalice and CounterTop :)

[Captain Hammer]

Should this deck be playing Regal Force? It seems like such an absolutely busted card here.

[1maarten1]

It does ;), but only as a 1 off. U really dont want to see it in stead of cheap elves when ur not combo'ing. Its good when ur combo'ing but otherwise its dead ;).

~Maarten

[yawg07]

It does ;), but only as a 1 off. U really dont want to see it in stead of cheap elves when ur not combo'ing. Its good when ur combo'ing but otherwise its dead ;).

~Maarten

I wouldn't say that it is DEAD. I've won a few games in a tight spot because of him.
5/5 that draws at least 3+ cards when it comes into play can shift quite a few games.

[sunshine]

What's the average goldfish for this deck - and how aggressively do you mulligan for the combo in game one?

[Shabbaman]

But it still does nothing to protect your actual combo unless you draw Regal Force and try baiting several times (to tap your opponent out and proceed to going off through "Chalice @1") or at least draw your win. It might be more prudent to try and strengthen your aggro route another way.
Leyline's preferable to nothing, sure, and should definitely be tested imo, as it has the neat side effect of also completely shutting down Chalice. I myself don't really like Shusher for the very reason you stated.
Then again, Grip probably wouldn't be worse against both Chalice and CounterTop :)

Grip is three mana. That's a lot if you need to get all of it from basic lands. However, your arguments are certainly valid.

[lorddotm]

Creatures
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Instants
1 Brain Freeze
4 Summoner's Pact

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus


Sorceries
4 Glimpse Of Nature
4 Natural Order

Basic Lands
13 Forest

Sideboard:

4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Viridian Shaman
4 Krosan Grip
3 Umezawa's Jitte


This is what I'm using right now.

[GoldenCid]

Here is my elfball combo deck. Suggestions and comments are welcomed.

// Lands
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [P2] Forest (2)
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [TSB] Pendelhaven
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
2 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [5E] Llanowar Elves
3 [LE] Wirewood Hivemaster
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
4 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
2 [10E] Viridian Shaman
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Imperious Perfect

// Spells
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
3 [RAV] Chord of Calling

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant

[sunshine]

Is there a reason you decided not to run the Progenitus package? One of the problems with this deck is that without Glimpse you're just a rather clunky aggro deck (relative to other aggro options), The package is only 4/5 cards and gives you a solid plan if you don't draw Glimpse. Also, I'm not sold on the high non-basic count. Running so many basics was one of the things this deck had going for it - do you think you gain enough to warrant all the non-basics?

[GoldenCid]

Also, I'm not sold on the high non-basic count. Running so many basics was one of the things this deck had going for it - do you think you gain enough to warrant all the non-basics?

I don't understand your question...

[Zlatzman]

I don't understand your question...

My interpretation:

You only have four basic Forest in your deck. Does the power of your non-basics (Cradle, Horizon, Pendelhaven, Temple Garden) make up for the increased vulnerability to Blood Moon and Wasteland?

Keep in mind you now only have seven lands (4 x Forest, 1 x Temple Garden, 2 x Windswept Heath) you can return with Quirion Ranger, has this been a problem in testing?

[GoldenCid]

My interpretation:

Keep in mind you now only have seven lands (4 x Forest, 1 x Temple Garden, 2 x Windswept Heath) you can return with Quirion Ranger, has this been a problem in testing?

Absolutely. Forest are pretty enought to make quirior very very usefull. About gaea's, this land is great and usually tapping it once is enought to extract all its potential. And canopy gives us the additional draw. Moon/Wasteland effects have a relative impact on the mana base, however post board it weight could be greater. Would you run a plains to cover this problem??

[sunshine]

I probably wouldn't run white at all... and almost certainly not Horizon Canopy. I can understand Gaea's Cradle and even Pendlehaven (although I would cut Pendlehaven if I was going to make a spash). My take on Canopy is that the draw will almost never be relevent. You're not going to play it on your combo turn since you either will be saving the land drop for Cradle or needed another mana source to get going. It's possible that your meta has a lot more combo than mine and the Chants are really necessary, I would be happier with Choke or Krosan Grip in that slot and keep up my resilience to both Counterbalance and Moon effects. That list, without ESG and only 4 basics, has a really hard time with turn one Moons.

[lorddotm]

I've been testing with Sages of the Anima, from Alara Reborn, and it is crazy good.

[GoldenCid]

I've done some test with this deck and a question arises:

Would you play an aggro deck with 4 Perfects, M. entity and progenitus pack? Or would you play it combo wiht progenitus pack and second win??

[Torgeist]

How do you guys feel about splashing blue? I'm currently experimenting a bit with 3 mystical tutors instead of 3 weird harvests (I'm running LSV's list, with fyndhorn elves instead of elves of deep shadow and a different SB) and I've found they make the deck a lot more consistent. While the card disadvantage can be a pain, having effectively 7 glimpses in your deck just makes the combo so much better, and if need be it can fetch for any creature by getting a summoner's pact. Additionally, it can fetch your win condition.

edit: after some more testing, it seems it's not as great as I first thought. Weird harvest often does just as good a job in setting up the combo, and it can usually do it the same turn you combo out. I've gone back to the mono-green list.

[Torgeist]

Creatures
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote

Instants
1 Brain Freeze
4 Summoner's Pact

Legendary Creatures
1 Progenitus


Sorceries
4 Glimpse Of Nature
4 Natural Order

Basic Lands
13 Forest

Sideboard:

4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Viridian Shaman
4 Krosan Grip
3 Umezawa's Jitte


This is what I'm using right now.

Has the absence of weird harvest been a problem for you? I was thinking about adding the progenitus package myself, but I'm afraid losing the versatility of weird harvest will weaken the deck more then the progenitus package will add. I've tried replacing it with mystical tutor (see post above), until I realized just how much the card does for the deck, bot in setting up the combo and keeping it going.

[HSCK]

Has anyone else been using the Cloudstone-Concordant package? I find that it stabilizes the deck and allows it to win with the least amount of available Elves on the table.