[DECK] Parfait-Beatdown

[urdjur]

*********************UPDATED LIST******************************

I'll strive to keep this list with card explanations and gauntlet test results as updated as possible. The fundamentals of this deck if you're interested in building your own version:

*White aggro-control, combining elements from decks such as Parfait, Wayfarer White Weenie, and Death and Taxes
*Two toolboxes - one land based (wayfarer) and one artifact/enchantment based (Enlightened Tutor)
*Main deck ability to handle combo, aggro and control
*Recursion to keep going forever, making decking your opponent an alternate win condition if you match power for power
*Synergistic card set

See below for more info on development and style of the deck. My current list:

LANDS (20)
10 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Ancient Den
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Kor Haven
1 Dust Bowl

CREATURES (20)
-1cc
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Epochrasite
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
1 Stonecloaker

SPELLS (20)
-0cc
1 Zuran Orb
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
2 Mask of Memory
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Crucible of Worlds

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mine Excavation
1 Aura of Silence
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Absolute Law
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

CARD SELECTION MOTIVATIONS

Plains: Yup, we need those. Going below 10 basics is tempting, but I chose to play with 10 basics to avoid Moon effects.

Mishra's Factory: Fetchable creatures that get past sweepers, pro: W etc. Easy to recur.

Horizon Canopy: Card draw engine with Crucible or Wayfarer + recursion. Help fight mana flood to enable Wayfarer.

Ancient Den: With only 15 white sources, having an extra also in the tutor box gives resilience in hitting double whites when you don't get (or can't use) Vial or Wayfarer.

Flagstones of Trokair: The most played land after Plains, this is what you'll start sacrificing and recurring when your engine is in place, to create card advantage and thin your library.

Mistveil Plains: A resilient part of your recursion engine. The CIPT drawback is irrelevant when you use Flagstones to tutor for it.

Kor Haven: Land based creature control is useful against Pro:W dudes or when you're temporarily out of StP/ORing. Tapping for mana and not untapping the creature makes this a stronger MD choice than Maze of Ith.

Dust Bowl: One of your sacrificial outlets (to enable wayfarer and abuse Flagstones), this helps destroying man lands and other annoying lands when you have nothing better to do with your mana. It just keeps on going!

Mother of Runes: Removal protection, extra evasion, endless chump blocking etc. Moms, man lands, 4/4 dudes and avengers help control small creatures so you don't have to waste removal on them unless you want to.

Weathered Wayfarer: A star of the deck that can get you creatures, removal, card draw etc. Landstill's worst nightmare.

Serra Avenger: Double utility in an evasive attacker and weenie controller with vial synergy.

Jötun Grunt: Another key recursion element to get back important lands and spells quickly. Works well with all the mixing effects. Can be maintained using Flickerwisp or Stonecloaker. Huge!

Ethersworn Canonist: Much like Rule of Law on a body for 2cc. Fetches with tutor. Can be played around with Vial, Flickerwisp, and using StP + tutors on your opponent's turn. Hurts many decks, but makes storm combo roll over and die.

Epochrasite: Crazy good with Vial or Flickerwisp. Can only be permanently removed by StP, but you have Mom or Vial+Flickerwisp to prevent that. Probably the most common fetch with tutor (not so hot without Vial or wisp though, so 1 is the right number).

Flickerwisp: Does so much. Enables Epochrasite, resets Grunt, combos with Vial + ORing for a 2-for-1, creates gaps in defenses like Chalice and Counterbalance, randomly hoses stuff like Dreadnought, or gives (at the very least) mana advantage by untapping a plains.

Stonecloaker: Pretty much a fifth flickerwisp, but also GY hate that you can use each round if you have Vial or three mana to spare.

Zuran Orb: The second sacrifical outlet is the other toolbox for maximum effect. Synergy with wayfarer and grunt. Also helps game 1 against burn.

Aether Vial: This should be self-explanatory. Radically improves any game where counters is a factor, and throws combat calculations way off.

Swords to Plowshares: These are good.

Enlightened Tutor: This enables you to consistently play cards like Epochrasite, Jitte, Zuran Orb, Canonist, Ghostly Prison and Crucible, even though you run them as single copies since they are typically bad in multiples. For some MUs, this is less important in games 2-3 when you can add more business hate (example: Threshold). For others, it's even more important (example: Storm combo, for 8 effective canonists).

Mask of Memory: A strong source of additional card drawing with 9 flyers + mom being able to grant evasion. The tutors, card draw and recursion in this deck combine so that you can manipulate what you want in your yard, hand and library pretty radically.

Umezawa's Jitte: A colorless source of creature removal, life gain, and increased clock. Only downside is everyone else has them too, but at least it's a disenchant then.

Oblivion Ring: Crazy good removal, on par with StP. If you Vial out Flickerwisp in response to the CIP trigger, you can remove the first target permanently and choose another target as it returns, just like you played it normally. 2-for-1!

Ghostly Prison: A silver bullet against many things, such as Goblins, Ichorid, EtW or Sky Hussar tokens, or generic aggro that would otherwise be impossible to handle game 1, such as Sui Zombies.

Crucible of Worlds: Another recursive element. A cheaper way to recur land than putting them back into library and using wayfarer again. Sick with Horizon Canopy or Dust Bowl/Zuran + Flagstones.

Relic of Progenitus: THE grave hate card against threshold, aggro-loam, ichorid etc. See page 2 for an extended discussion on RoP.

Runed Halo: Useful to catch anything that slips through our defenses, such as: Pro: W or shrouded dudes, Scepter/Chant lock, Grindstone or other win cons like Belcher or Tendrils etc.

Mine Excavation: Conspire means either card advantage or uncounterability. Useful in MUs where Tutor is bad (such as Threshold), but also works as a 5th tutor in games where Tutor and multiple silver bullets dominate the game (such as Aggro-Loam).

Aura of Silence: Hoses enchantress, affinity, stax, and offers decent protection against Deed.

Circle of Protection: Red: Against burn mostly, but also against anything with red in it.

Absolute Law: Mostly against goblins and aggro-loam, but most decks with red don't like this.

Wheel of Sun and Moon: Necessary when you don't want opponent's cards going into the grave at all, such as against Ichorid, Affinity or Aggro-Loam (Countryside Crusher).

GAUNTLET TESTING

The above deck list is currently undergoing more formal testing. I'm not aiming at exact percentages, just finding out what's favorable, even or unfavorable pre and post board. The gauntlet with results added as they become finished:

Affinity: No data yet
Aggro-Loam: Unfavorable pre board, favorable post board
Burn: Even pre board, favorable post board
CRET Belcher: No data yet
Enchantress: No data yet
EPIC Painter: No data yet
Eva Green: No data yet
Faerie Stompy: No data yet
Ichorid: No data yet
Landstill: No data yet
Stax: No data yet
Sui Black: No data yet
Survival: No data yet
Threshold: Slightly favorable pre board, very favorable post board
Vial Goblins: Even pre board, favorable post board (varies with build)

**********************OLD STUFF*******************************
In case you're new to Parfait, it is the name of a T1 mono-white control deck from 2000 that since became the benchmark of all MWC decks. The closest I've seen in Legacy thus far is Rabid Wombat, but apart from the fact that it's also MWC, the builds don't have so much in common, as wombat is based on cycling. The original "Deck Parfait" used the Scroll Rack/Land Tax combo to keep drawing survival spells, and the deck I'm about to present to you uses utility creatures in a similar manner. This leads to a MW aggro-control deck with a little bit of everything in it. But first, let's look at the original Parfait of T1:

DECK PARFAIT (DECEMBER 22, 2000)

ENGINE (16)
3 Land Tax
2 Scroll Rack
2 Zuran Orb
1 Soldevi Digger
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Planar Birth
4 Argivian Find
1 Replenish
1 Library of Alexandria

SURVIVAL (20)
4 Abeyance
1 Balance
1 Story Circle
1 Ivory Mask
1 Ivory Tower
3 Aura of Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

KILL (5)
3 Sacred Mesa
1 Jester’s Cap
1 Tormod's Crypt

MANA (19)
1 Serra's Sanctum
13 Plains
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring

The draw engine here is Land Tax + Scroll Rack, where Zuran Orb is used to enable Land Tax (and also stall for time against aggressive decks). The Parfait engine also features recursion/tutoring in the form of Enlightened Tutor, Planar Birth, Argivian Find, Replenish and, most importantly, Soldevi Digger. Using Digger, Parfait can go on forever with its survival spells, and actually uses recurring Tormod's Crypt and Jester's Cap as an alternative win to kill a recursive player, since it stays on-line for long enough to deck the opponent. Normally it wins using Sacred Mesa however.

The protective package features removal of all permanent types, including abusing the awesome Balance. It also has some extra life gain and multi-purpose protection in a few white enchantments that also fetch with the single ETutor. Interestingly, Abeyance is here to fight counters and not combo, as combo decks weren't prevalent in the 2000 vintage meta.

Now that basic concept of Parfait is clear, I'll present my list (omitting the sideboard for now)

LEGACY PARFAIT-BEATDOWN by urdjur (2008)

ENGINE (15)
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Zuran Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Mask of Memory
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sanctum Gargoyle

SURVIVAL (20)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Mother of Runes
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven

KILL (11)
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
1 Epochrasite
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blinkmoth Nexus

MANA (14)
13 Plains
1 Ancient Den

[snip - card explanations moved to updated list at the top]

[Skeggi]

Didn't the original build include Tangle Wires and Smokestacks? That's how I remember it...

[nodahero]

i THINK there was one version that did run those although I believe most did not. When I first tried getting into vintage I ran Parfait myself and actually still have my old shit-tastic version on MWS.

For your viewing pleasure (apparently my old list is well hidden so this is a newer list):

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [4E] Strip Mine
1 [7E] Mountain (4)
9 [ST] Plains (4)
1 [AN] Library of Alexandria

// Creatures
4 [FS] Magus of the Moon
3 [AL] Gorilla Shaman (2)

// Spells
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [OV] Abeyance
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LG] Land Tax
4 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [WL] Argivian Find
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
3 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
1 [LG] Moat
1 [PR] Mana Crypt
1 [B] Black Lotus
1 [B] Mox Ruby
1 [B] Mox Pearl
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [U] Sol Ring
1 [B] Balance

As you noticed this particular build of Parfait actually runs a small red splash. The red splash was placed in for 2 reasons. Back in the haydays of Magic you could actually kill an opponent with Mox Monkey all on his own while also allowing him to have a very strong board presence in controlling opposing mox, lotus, or other insane artifacts.

An interesting thing you may want to include in your list or at least the side board is possibly a goblin charbelcher. I doubt if it will be nearly as insance although it could still serve some benefits in your build.

[Mirrislegend]

Why play this over Death and Taxes?

[urdjur]

Why play this over Death and Taxes?

I anticipated that comment.


An interesting thing you may want to include in your list or at least the side board is possibly a goblin charbelcher.

I didn't anticipate that one!

But yeah, you could probably run it, though it's not as good without Land Tax. I've even seen Aeolipile (it recurs, but it's a pile...) fill a similar function in some lists. I just think there's enough creature hate already, and I prefer the decking alternate wincon rather than some direct damage artifact (cursed scroll? nah).

So why play this over Death and Taxes? Obviously they are similar in so far as their cards are similar (StP, ORing, Flickerwisp, Serra, Vial - mostly). Both decks have strong means to protect their creatures and create card advantage, so their are also other similarities.

I haven't compared them "scientifically", but by inspection, the above list should be better against combo due to main deck tutors and Ethersworn Canonist. Post board, it has 12 answers to combo, whereas D&T manages 8 (the chants + 4x Whatever = for instance canonist).

Also by inspection, this should be lots better against Landstill. Wayfarer alone defeats them, but you can also protect him with Mother, use a Crucible of your own while crypting their yard and even outdraw them.

Ichorid should be about the same. I don't run the Samurai in my list, but I do have fetchable Crypt. Post board, it's stronger thanks to Wheel.

Burn is a decidedly better match up, thanks to Zuran Orb. And Rune post board = gg.

Those are the only problem MUs for D&T that I know of. I'm sure there are other MUs where D&T is better (for instance, I'd guess goblins, thanks to awesome Tivadar of Thorn and Isamaru being an answer to turn 1 lackey in a way that my 1cc dudes aren't).

I play it over D&T because I like variation. Vive la difference!

[Happy Gilmore]

Why play this over Death and Taxes?

Why play Death and Taxes?

[BlindMage]

This is an incredibly interesting deck. I've been looking recently for a deck to play that has at least most of the following:

- more than 1 possible path to victory
- interesting and challenging card synergies and intricacies of play
- a toolbox
- no need for me to buy Tarmogoyf (tuition is a serious drain on my gaming budget :P)
- either Mother of Runes or Brainstorm
- a strategy that doesn't totally bite it to combo or countertop game 1
- recursion

The only other deck I've run across that I've liked is Legacy Control Slaver, but there are a couple things I like better about this deck. For one, it actually beats down. Also, I can build it somewhat more economically than I can Control Slaver. I've got a couple of questions for you, though.

Is Blinkmoth Nexus really better than Mishra's Factory? Does its ability to fly outweigh factory's ability to trade with a threshed 'goose or someone elses factory?

When you talk about Tormod's Crypt recursion, are you just referring to using Grunt to put it on the bottom and tutoring for or simply drawing it again, or am I missing something?

Does Oblivion Ring obviate the usefulness of 1x Pithing Needle as a tutor target, or might there be a place for Needle?

Have you considered sideboarding 1x Isochron Scepter to allow you sideboard into an oops, I win Orim's Chant lock, or simply imprint Swords to Plowshares against aggro? Maybe Scepter could take RoP: Red's place.

Thoughts?

Edit: Doh. Saw what I was missing re: Crypt recusion.

[Mordel]

While I am not entirely sold on this deck, my guess at an answer for:


Why play this over Death and Taxes?

is silver bullets and an a tiny bit of an engine for life gain against burn, though to be honest I don't think it is fast enough to cope with burn and wayfarer will generally have a big bullseye on it because most opponents will think they are playing against a normal D&T build at first.

That's my guess anyway.

[MTG Guru]

If you did decide to play Goblin Charbelcher, I'd probably throw Tithe in there somewhere. Just my two cents.

[urdjur]

I just realized what a fool I've been not to include 1x Flagstones of Trokair! With Zuran Orb on the table, you don't need to play any other land. Sac Flagstones to Zuran Orb - in comes a plains and you gain 2 life. Next turn, recur it with Crucible or Grunt+Wayfarer and repeat! It's almost too good.

I've also been considering 1x Mistveil Plains for the main, to recur Grunt in the even that both copies would go to the grave. It CIPT, but might be worth it still as a 1-of to bring in using the Flagstones mechanic (since it counts as a plains, and flagstones CIPT the new plains anyway).


Is Blinkmoth Nexus really better than Mishra's Factory? Does its ability to fly outweigh factory's ability to trade with a threshed 'goose or someone elses factory?

I'm not sure. As it's mostly there to recover from a sweeper, I want it to be able to pick up equipment and go for the eyes. If you want a recurrable blocker, flying helps too. Trading with factories shouldn't come up much with Wasteland in the engine. So that leaves threshed geese... I'm not sure that's enough to give up flying.

However, I've been considering Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai instead. Again, the problem is lack of flying in the spirit tokens, but it fits better with the engine and makes it possible to amass an uncounterable army of tokens. Opinions?


Does Oblivion Ring obviate the usefulness of 1x Pithing Needle as a tutor target, or might there be a place for Needle?

There might very well be. It's so broad and fits right into the artifact recursion that we might want to fit it in. I haven't tested the deck enough to decide if it's possible to cut a land for it - the above Flagstones trick tells me it might be so. Thanks for the tip.


Have you considered sideboarding 1x Isochron Scepter to allow you sideboard into an oops, I win Orim's Chant lock, or simply imprint Swords to Plowshares against aggro? Maybe Scepter could take RoP: Red's place.

Yes, I considered it a while back - Stp, Chant and Tutor are all good imprints. The problem is the reduced speed/clunkiness and the expected instant speed artifact removal in games 2-3. I doubt I'd get more than 1 activation out of it anyway, so even if I'm able to recur it, I think I'd be better off without. It merits testing I suppose.


I don't think it is fast enough to cope with burn and wayfarer will generally have a big bullseye on it because most opponents will think they are playing against a normal D&T build at first.

In game 1, I only need tutor/zuran orb in my hand to win against burn. Wayfarer is gravy, but not necessary. Also, if burn needs to waste a spell on a creature, it means me dying one turn later. And there's Mother of Runes to consider. If burn doesn't get a good draw, turn 4 Jitte is also gg for them. You can also StP a Grunt or Epochrasite in a pinch to survive that long. In games 2-3, I don't think any burn side board has anything at all to deal with Rune of Protection: Red (if so, please prove me wrong so I can make adjustments).

[Mordel]

I have seen burn run anarchy before, but that isn't really the point. Also, if rune is a single copy, why aren't you just running cop:red? Is a single card in your sideboard that could be cycled more important than a card that can be activated with colourless mana instead? With your land base, the difference is somewhat trivial, but I have always been a fan of preparing for the worst case scenario. In this case the worst case scenario when you have a rune of protection out is that you have a random colourless land out and you need it to preven damage from a fireblast or something, but can't.

Also, a name is just a name so whatever, but with the absence of scroll rack and a card like land tax, I am not really sure if you can really consider this deck to be much like its type one counterpart at all.

The green and white loam control deck that comes with apprentice on magic league, which features loam, cycling lands and scroll rack seems like a better homage to the archetype than this.

Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing you or the deck, I am just saying that when you stand back and look at vintage parfait deck and this there isn't a lot in common other than a few shared slots...

I understand an advantage this deck boasts over death and taxes is higher potential versatility and utility in card slots, but I still don't really see from what I have read a big reason to play it over the other.

I guess I can try tinkering with your deck myself, but as someone that has posted a blurb on the deck, you haven't really done much justice to the deck itself by showing match ups and stuff like that.

That's just what I think though. I could be way out of line.

[DireLemming]

The new Knight of the White Orchid (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/16.html) might be worth it. Same goes for stealing tech from 43 Lands (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4020) (I'm thinking stuff like Glacial Chasm, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Riftstone Portal, Maze of Ith, Nomad Stadium,...)

[urdjur]

While I haven't played this deck before I can't say anything definitively, but I don't think two life per turn with little in the way of lands is going to do a hell of a lot to mitigate the shitloads of damage a burn deck can throw out before you side in rune. That's just my thoughts though.

Well, let's see if we can reach a definitive conclusion and not just through around thoughts.

Let's assume that a good burn deck deals 2 damage/card, so that after playing 10 cards at round 3, it has won. We all know that burn hardly wins at turn 3 all the time, but nevertheless. Also, this approximation isn't any good once burn is in topdeck mode - once that happens we're talking 2 damage/round on average, if that.

Let's then consider how this deck is an aggro deck with a turn 5 goldfish - nothing to write home about, and nothing to be ashamed of either for a beatdown deck. We see that, if we do nothing, burn has a fundamental turn that is 2 earlier than our own.

I *don't* need to get past that magical turn 3 limit and then continue saccing land each turn for 2 life to invalidate burn indefinetely, but I *can* do that in game one if necessary. This would require Zuran Orb and some form of recursion (crucible of wayfarer).

However, that's not the point, since I only need to push 2 turns to swing for the win. That only requires Zuran Orb in place and saccing lands as needed in response to lethal damage, while my threats are already in place. Eventually, burn will have to start worrying about the damage he's taking from my dudes, and once he wastes spells on them, I've won. There's also StP and Jitte as mentioned.

Test results? I have no burn players where I live, so yeah, unless you're willing to try it out yourself, we'll have to use assumptions. But they are hardly baseless, since it's pretty easy to anticipate how a burn deck will play out.


Also, if rune is a single copy, why aren't you just running cop:red? Is a single card in your sideboard that could be cycled more important than a card that can be activated with colourless mana instead?

You're probably right, it should be a CoP instead.


Also, a name is just a name so whatever, but with the absence of scroll rack and a card like land tax, I am not really sure if you can really consider this deck to be much like its type one counterpart at all.

The biggest difference isn't that wayfarer has to replace land tax (since it's banned in legacy), but that it's a creature based deck. Hence, not "legacy parfait" but "legacy parfait-beatdown". If you think some multicolored LftL-deck is more parfait-ish, to each his own.


I understand an advantage this deck boasts over death and taxes is higher potential versatility and utility in card slots, but I still don't really see from what I have read a big reason to play it over the other.

To sum it up: In every problem match up for D&T, I venture this to be better. This means combo, landstill, burn and to some extent ichorid.


I guess I can try tinkering with your deck myself, but as someone that has posted a blurb on the deck, you haven't really done much justice to the deck itself by showing match ups and stuff like that.

Well, it's still new and developmental and I keep tweaking it daily. That's typical of parfait-decks and actually where the name comes from originally (this French guy was trying to build a perfect deck). Still, with the experience I have with legacy and mono white deck building, I can pretty much anticipate what works and what doesn't. Once the list is more finalized, I'd be happy to put it through a more formalized gauntlet.


The new Knight of the White Orchid might be worth it. Same goes for stealing tech from 43 Lands (I'm thinking stuff like Glacial Chasm, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Riftstone Portal, Maze of Ith, Nomad Stadium,...)

KotWO only fetches plains - if he was a free tutor for any land, I'd run him in a heartbeat. I looked at many Loam decks when building this obviously, but for the specific ones you mention:
*Glacial Chasm - The deck can't support it.
*Tabernacle - Hurts me too, and in almost every case where it would be good, Ghostly Prison is superior.
*Riftstone Portal - Are you suggesting a green splash?
*Maze of Ith - I opt for Kor Haven instead
*Nomad Stadium - Anti-synergy with the recursion. Sunbeam Spellbomb or even old school Ivory Tower would be better additional sources of life gain for this deck. But it's hard to fit everything...

[Lifeless]

I played against the original incarnation of Parfait in 1.5 for years and it's nice to see someone try to blow the dust off it.
I didn't see you mention why you cut Moat. Was it for financial reasons? Ghostly Prison is a decent replacement but obviously worse against generic beatdown.
It seems to me like Serra's Sanctum is still a worthy 1 of, if not more so than it used to be, thanks to Wayfarer. Also, I was fond of planar birth for a quick life boost, but I can see how it's a bit outdated.

[Mordel]

For the sake of testing: the best testing tool ever is mws imho. You don't get the good stuff like reading opponents and trash talking face to face and so forth, but it is an incredible resource for testing slots and matchups.

[urdjur]

I didn't see you mention why you cut Moat. Was it for financial reasons? Ghostly Prison is a decent replacement but obviously worse against generic beatdown.

I think Moat was a fantastic card in the old T1 list, but in Legacy we don't have all the acceleration to power it out. Ghostly Prison comes out a significant turn faster, hoses goblin tokens just as well as sky hussar tokens AND works against flying (there's plenty - dragon/faerie stompy come to mind) and non-flying aggro to boot.

Then there's also the symmetrical issue when you run 12 non-flyers of your own. Yes, they're not there to attack mainly, but it would be nice to keep the anti-synergy at bay.

I personally think Ghostly Prison is great in white aggro control decks. Betweeen StP and Oblivion Ring (and Kor Haven/Maze of Ith), and our own creatures, we're not worried about the lone attacker trying to push through, but controlling a swarm of creatures. In fact, Ghostly Prison works more like Wrath than Moat in this deck.


It seems to me like Serra's Sanctum is still a worthy 1 of, if not more so than it used to be, thanks to Wayfarer.

I only play with 3 enchantments in the main, so I guess it would often be a dead land. Also, there's nothing to do with the massive mana, whereas T1 Parfait could produce boat loads of tokens with Sacred Mesa. This deck doesn't need more than 3-4 mana. It spends the rest of its land drops drawing cards, wasting opponent's lands or doing something else that's useful.


Also, I was fond of planar birth for a quick life boost, but I can see how it's a bit outdated.

It has to do with the difference in draw/recursion mechanic. With Land Tax, you can fill your yard with plains pretty quickly, enabling planar birth. We rely on playing 1 land/round using wayfarer or crucible, so it takes much longer to fill up the yard. It's definetely something you could use around round 8-10ish, but I wonder if it has a place as a non-fetchable 1-of. (Also, T1 Parfait had the added benefit of being able to use the mana boost for pegasus tokens too).


For the sake of testing: the best testing tool ever is mws imho. You don't get the good stuff like reading opponents and trash talking face to face and so forth, but it is an incredible resource for testing slots and matchups.

No trash talking on MWS? Guess I must have been unlucky. I detest playing on-line... it's just not any fun for me. It would feel like work, not play and be stressing rather than relaxing. However, I do use apprentice to test consistency, gold fishing etc. when working on new decks.

I'm not saying I won't do it eventually though to test it out thouroughly, just not right now. (Also, I think I'd get even more trash talk if playing Parfait on MWS - people seem to be very impatient and want me to play faster as it is and the mechanics to this deck are pretty convuluted.)

[Mordel]

What I mean is face to face trash talking. Everyone is an internet tough guy when I play them online, but they tend to be a bit more...cordial in person in my experience anyway. Besides, you can always just not read what they type.
You definitely be able to figure out what cards work better in obscure matchups or whatever than if you wait for a weekly tourney or goldfish.

[urdjur]

Here's a new list after tweaking/testing some more and considering the advice in this thread:

LANDS (20)
12 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dust Bowl

CREATURES (19)
-1cc
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Epochrasite
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp

SPELLS (21)
-0cc
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
-2cc
1 Mask of Memory
1 Rune of Protection: Red
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura of Silence
1 Maze of Ith
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Changes include:
*Abuse of recurring Flagstones to thin your deck of plains while either destroying opponent's mana (Dust Bowl) or gaining life (Zuran Orb).
*A much more reliable recursion engine than just Grunt thanks to Mistveil Plains, which can send key cards back. It's now *very* difficult for an opponent to prevent us from playing the deck ad nauseam.
*A full complement of Factories that we can abuse with wayfarer and Crucible to round out the aggro package.
*A diversified toolbox even in the main, capable of handling most that the current meta can throw at us.
*An updated sideboard where Orim's Chant was cut in favor of Runed Halo which is more versatile. This may depend on your meta though.

I've put the most work into the mana base. 20 mana producing lands is necessary to cast 3cc non-creature spells consistently on turn 3, and makes us less dependent on Vial. The 15 white sources may seem a bit thin, but we only have double whites in our Avengers and Flickerwisps, which we would either want to cast through Vial anyway, or at a point in the game when we REALLY should have drawn a second white source at any rate.

I'll probably update the first post this week and see if I can squeeze in some match-up info by then.

[jericohs@cottage]

I love the Land Tax, Scroll Rack draw engine. I have a quick question though. During your upkeep the land tax triggers. You fetch three lands and shuffle your lib. Then you pay the activation cost of scroll rack, draw three and replace your lands ontop of your lib.

Here's the question...Does Land Tax trigger again, allowing you to search your lib for three more lands. Since the condition on Land Tax wasn't met?

Can someone explain the interaction to me in MTGO talk using the stack as a reference?

[Mordel]

I love the Land Tax, Scroll Rack draw engine. I have a quick question though. During your upkeep the land tax triggers. You fetch three lands and shuffle your lib. Then you pay the activation cost of scroll rack, draw three and replace your lands ontop of your lib.

Here's the question...Does Land Tax trigger again, allowing you to search your lib for three more lands. Since the condition on Land Tax wasn't met?

Can someone explain the interaction to me in MTGO talk using the stack as a reference?

I mostly read here, but if I recall there is a rules section. Further more, the top list that you seemed to look at was a vintage list. You still didn't read forum rules like a moderator suggested you to do, eh?

Urdjur:

I know flickerwisp can do a lot of different things, but are you sure you don't want three instead? I don't see it as being a card you want to have in every single hand necessarily.

[Heresy]

I think you should replace back the mistveil plains with the Kor Haven, a necessary anti aggro. Plains is clunky and won't do that much except in the long games where you would lose without the Haven.

Good luck with this promising deck :) and Mordel is right, 4 flickerwips is redundant.

[urdjur]

Flickerwisp is nuts! I'm trying out 2x Stonecloaker too, so I can flicker more stuff in a game. I think it's definetely a 4-of. Look, you need him to

*enable Epochrasite, which is probably my most common tutor target. If I don't have vial but flickerwisp, I can still tutor for him and have a 4/4 + a 3/1 flyer on turn 3.
*enable Grunt resets. This is also works with Stonecloaker.
*2-for-1 your opponent with awesome ORing when you have Vial. Wouldn't you like a 3/1 flyer for 3cc that says "when ~ comes into play, remove target non-land permanent from the game"?
*dodge removal and gain card advantage with Vial - this alone is huge.

Even without ANY other synergy than simple plains, Flickerwisp is essentially a 3/1 flyer for 2 mana if you untap a land with him. And you can use that extra mana for StP, Tutor or Wayfarer on opponents turn, so it won't go to waste. Is there any other white dude this good in the 2-3cc range? If not, why not run it as a 4-of?

As for Kor Haven - I agree to some extent. I think it was a mistake to go down to 1 ORing as a tutor target and taking out Kor Haven. I thought I had too much creature control and now I have too little. I think the deck either needs fetchable creature control in the wayfarer tool box (Kor Haven or Maze of Ith), or multiple ORings.

Mistveil Plains is very good, since you can tutor for it with Flagstones of Trokair saccing to Zuran Orb or Dust Bowl. Then the CIPT doesn't matter and it can recur key cards for an encore appearance. The only bad thing is if you get it as your only land in your starting hand, but meh. Among other things, when you've played out your hand, it allows Wayfarer to be a card drawing engine unto himself, even without Crucible:
*Wayfarer
*Mistveil
*Horizon Canopy
*3 mana
Wash rince lather until you have better things to do with your mana.

Thanks for the interest so far - my testing continues tomorrow :)

[eq.firemind]

Maybe try out 2 Mangara of Corondor + 1-2 Karakas?

[urdjur]

That would be something like Death and Taxes with an ETutor toolbox, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, the first thing that got me thinking about "parfait-beatdown" was the realization when playing around with D&T that white now had so many answers that we didn't need Karakas + Mangara anymore.

When D&T emerged, Karakas + Mangara + Vial was SO great because you could remove any permanent uncounterably. The problems of course is that this is a three card combo that gets going on turn 5 if we drop turn 1 Vial. And just playing Mangara without Vial and Karakas isn't very good compared to Oblivion Ring, which can be played on turn 3 with immediate effect.

Mangara + Karakas can create card advantage, but so can Oblivion Ring with Flickerwisp. Now, D&T runs all of them, but that lowers the chances of actually getting the "combo" that counts (Karakas + Flickerwisp does nothing, for instance). It's easier to run ORing as a 4-of, since it's great on its own - sometimes getting a 2-for-1 is gravy. The same goes with Flickerwisp on its own - you can take a Chalice/Counterbalance Free Turn and play some 1cc spells, if needed, or put it to other good use.

If I still have room/need for more disruption after
4x StP
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Flickerwisp
Xx toolbox bombs like Dust Bowl, Kor Haven, Ghostly Prison, Jitte

then I'd start considering 1x Karakas for the wayfarer engine and 2x Mangara. As it looks right now though, I may be hard pressed for the room. And I dread drawing Mangara with no Vial or Wayfarer on the table. But I'm not totally against it :) Besides, a Karakas for the toolbox always means random winning against akroma haha.

[MTG Guru]

Mangara of Corondor and Karakas is not a combo.

How exactly is this not a combo?

[K-Run]

How exactly is this not a combo?

Sorry, I should've RTFC.

Anyways, this is rather slow for a spot removal. The aggro nature of this deck doesn't support it.

[BlindMage]

LANDS (20)
12 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dust Bowl

CREATURES (19)
-1cc
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Epochrasite
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp

SPELLS (21)
-0cc
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
-2cc
1 Mask of Memory
1 Rune of Protection: Red
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Aura of Silence
1 Maze of Ith
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon



I really don't like this list, compared to the original. For one thing, I don't think you need 4 Mishra's Factories, especially since you can go get them with Wayfarer if you need them. 3 would be better, I think. I also don't like the absence of Wasteland. Dust Bowl seems excellent in here, but since you're running Crucible anyway, it seems like there's basically no reason not to run both.

Also, it seems like you got kinda carried away with the Enlightened Tutor toolbox. 1 Seal of Cleansing/1 Oblivion Ring? That's a little silly. Is maindeck RoP: Red really necessary? I could see an argument for the Ghostly Prison as a tutor target, but I played it in that capacity recently in a similar deck, and found it fairly blah. I didn't play against goblins with it, and I'm sure it would have been more impressive in that matchup, or in the Ichorid matchup. Of the two of those, Goblins seem like the more dangerous one. However, I think that 4 StP, 3 ORing, 4MoR, 3 (recurrable)Factories, Zuran Orb, and Kor Haven give you a better game against the little red men than it might seem at first glance. If this slot is really important to the deck, I think it would be better served by Island Sanctuary or Story Circle, since they actually do something against decks like Threshold and AggroLoam. Plus, against Ichorid, IS comes down a potentially very important turn earlier.

On Pithing Needle: I know I'm the one that suggested this earlier, but I was trying to think of things that Pithing Needle can answer that the deck couldn't answer already by simply swordsing or Oringing it, and the only think I came up with was LftL+Wasteland/cycling land. If there's nothing else you need it for, it seems like it doesn't merit a slot. This deck couldn't be happier than if the opponent spent 2 mana and a land drop every turn destroying a land, and Pithing Needle doesn't exactly shut down the cycling plan anyway. I'm not sure if Sanctum Gargoyle really merits inclusion, but it does have nice synergy with the deck by enabling tutorable "backup copies" of tutorable artifacts, as well as setting up some alternate recursion routes with Flickerwisp. Plus it flies.

Also, I'm not convinced that 4 Runed Halo is better against combo than 4 Orim's Chant and tutorable Runed Halo. Halo can be bounced when they're ready to play their kill, or simply ignored if they go for a different kill altogether (e.g. Empty the Warrens). Chant on the other hand allows you to disrupt them mid-combo by doing things like chanting in response to a draw-4, tutor, big mana spell, or even bounce on your canonist or halo.

If I was building this, which I will in the near future, it would look like your original list, but with the following manabase:

Lands: 20
8 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ancient Den
1 Kor Haven
1 Mistveil Plains
(that's 9 plains, 13 white sources, one of each comes into play tapped. 7 colorless lands)

And also probably go -1 something, +1 Island Sanctuary. Either that or cut the 2 Mask of Memory for 1 Island Sanctuary and Oblivion Ring #4, though playing Angel Stompy back in the day taught me the value of Mask of Memory, so I'm hesitant to cut them. It's possible that I would just put the sanctuary int he sideboard.

[urdjur]

Thank you for the interest in the deck. To the specifics:


For one thing, I don't think you need 4 Mishra's Factories, especially since you can go get them with Wayfarer if you need them. 3 would be better, I think.

Agreed. Testing reveals that I need white sources, unless I like spending tutors on Ancient Den (it's *really* a last resort).


I also don't like the absence of Wasteland. Dust Bowl seems excellent in here, but since you're running Crucible anyway, it seems like there's basically no reason not to run both.

I don't want to depend on crucible, because that means depending more on ETutor. I also don't want to loose early tempo from using Wasteland - the land destruction comes after turn 3-4 to prevent control decks from accumulating land and to kill man lands. Also, if you have Crucible, feeding Flagstones to Dust Bowl each turn is better than just playing Wasteland over and over, since Flagstones also extracts plains and mixes your library.


Also, it seems like you got kinda carried away with the Enlightened Tutor toolbox. 1 Seal of Cleansing/1 Oblivion Ring? That's a little silly. Is maindeck RoP: Red really necessary?

Yes, that was mainly so I could test various tutor targets. Here's what I've found:
*Game 1 against burn is winnable with Zuran Orb, and highly winnable if you also get a) Vial or b) Wayfarer; allowing you to feed the orb while producing threats. Zuran Orb is utter crap in games 2-3 when Smash to Smithereens and friends enter. Thus, RoP: Red maindeck = no, CoP: Red in SB = yes!
*Seal of Cleansing is better than ORing sometimes, but in most games I'd prefer extra ORings considering the synergy with Flickerwisp.


Ghostly Prison as a tutor target
[snip]
If this slot is really important to the deck, I think it would be better served by Island Sanctuary or Story Circle, since they actually do something against decks like Threshold and AggroLoam. Plus, against Ichorid, IS comes down a potentially very important turn earlier.

Ghostly Prison is indeed great against Goblins and Ichorid. It also rocks against tokens. Island Sanctuary isn't faster unfortunately, since you need another draw step to use its replacement effect. It's also kinda worse since it does nothing against flyers (stompy builds, sky hussar tokens).

The thing I've found is that there are basically two types of aggro - weenies and fat. Cards like Ghostly Prison and Umezawa's Jitte shut down weenies, and most of them can't do anything about it (Ichorid, Goblins). For fat, we need spot removal like StP, Kor Haven and ORing. Then there are aggro decks that run both strategies in the same deck, and then we really need both.

Story Circle keeps coming back as an altenative but I question how much good it would do. It seems so redundant to pack it AND CoP:Red, but SC is too slow to matter against burn. Threshold has a million and a half answers to it, and I can already handle Thresh pretty well with the list I've been testing lately.


On Pithing Needle: I know I'm the one that suggested this earlier, but I was trying to think of things that Pithing Needle can answer that the deck couldn't answer already by simply swordsing or Oringing it, and the only think I came up with was LftL+Wasteland/cycling land. If there's nothing else you need it for, it seems like it doesn't merit a slot. This deck couldn't be happier than if the opponent spent 2 mana and a land drop every turn destroying a land, and Pithing Needle doesn't exactly shut down the cycling plan anyway. I'm not sure if Sanctum Gargoyle really merits inclusion, but it does have nice synergy with the deck by enabling tutorable "backup copies" of tutorable artifacts, as well as setting up some alternate recursion routes with Flickerwisp.

I'm with you on this - I've cut both from (Needle and Gargoyle) from the list I'm testing presently.


Also, I'm not convinced that 4 Runed Halo is better against combo than 4 Orim's Chant and tutorable Runed Halo.

You're absolutely right - it isn't. The thing is, with 4xTutor + 4xEthersworn Canonist, I effectively have 8 copies of 2cc Rule of Law against combo and I thought that would be sufficient since 4-5 of them are in the main. Halo was an attempt to diversify. Even so, I'm not liking Halo as a 4-of in the sideboard. The sideboard is still about 50% undetermined I'd say. And that's after spending hours going through EVERY 1-3 cc white enchantments that could possibly be of value. :eek:


(that's 9 plains, 13 white sources, one of each comes into play tapped. 7 colorless lands)

I think you'll find that horrible if you were to test a bit in Apprentice/MWS. I tried 15 white sources (one was Mistveil though, so it doesn't really count) and found it a tad short. I had to fetch an Ancient Den in about 1 in 8 of the Vial-less games to play Flickerwisp or Serra Avenger on turn 4. I suppose that's acceptable though - but I don't know if it's statistically accurate.

Also, only 8 basics makes me worried in this Blood Moon rich climate. I wouldn't go below 10 basic plains, even though there's a lot of utility that we want to cram in those other 10 land slots. You really want a t1 basic plains as your opener, and with 8 plains, that only has a 75% chance of happening.


Either that or cut the 2 Mask of Memory for 1 Island Sanctuary and Oblivion Ring #4, though playing Angel Stompy back in the day taught me the value of Mask of Memory, so I'm hesitant to cut them. It's possible that I would just put the sanctuary int he sideboard.

I'm trying without the MoMs for now and seeing how I like it. I've found fliers are so common that the draw from them is far from a sure thing. Also, it takes 2 hits to gain any card advantage from them, as they don't do anything be themselves. The Horizon Canopy engine is more modest in drawing power, but I think it may suffice.

Just for reference, here's what I'm trying out now (not settled on a sideboard yet, but that new 1 cc 'crypt' from Shards of Alara looks interesting). I'll continue testing this list tomorrow - tell me what you think.

LANDS (20)
10 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Kor Haven
1 Dust Bowl
1 Ancient Den
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas (why not? free legendary hate. Could also be another canopy or plains)

CREATURES (20)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Serra Avenger
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Jötun Grunt
4 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloaker

SPELLS (20)
1 Zuran Orb
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Crucible of Worlds

I'm extremely happy with the creature base right now and doubt it will change. The present split in casting costs (7/7/6) makes the most of Vial and I'm never unhappy to see any of them.

As for spells, I've tried to reduce strain on the ETutor toolbox since there just weren't enough tutors to go around before! Increasing them to 4 was one step, but also increasing ORings to 4-ofs means I'll probably never need to tutor for 1-for-1 spot removal, since it's so obvious card disadvantage. The present tutor targets have potential for such massive advantage that the tutor drawback is pretty irrelevant.

[Heresy]

I really liked Jotun Grunt as a 2 of and cutting it to only one seems like too much. I mean, he was a key-part to the recursion engine, and a 4/4 close the game faster. (He's your only fat) The last list is clearly more efficient now. Good job!

[BlindMage]

I really liked Jotun Grunt as a 2 of and cutting it to only one seems like too much. I mean, he was a key-part to the recursion engine, and a 4/4 close the game faster. (He's your only fat) The last list is clearly more efficient now. Good job!

I agree that 1 Grunt doesn't seem like enough. Even with Mistveil Plains as a Wayfarer target, it's good to not have to rely on Wayfarer (he is a 1/1, after all), and/or not have to spend mana, and/or be able to put back more than 1 thing at a time.

I'm also nervous that 4 Enlightened Tutors is overdoing it just a tad. 3 looked really perfect, but I'm not the one playing it, so maybe I'm wrong. I'm also missing the tutorable Tormod's Crypt.

You might be right about the number of white sources in my manabase. I think that 10 basic plains/10 utility lands is probably a pretty good guideline. However, I feel like playing multiples of some of the more basic Wayfarer targets is important, because there will be situations where you have Crucible (or ET), and want to abuse it, but don't have Wayfarer to make it possible. Having multiples of Mishra's Factory (which you do), Horizon Canopy, and something that hates nonbasics (I like having Wasteland as a less mana-intensive option) makes this much more plausible.

Edit: I'm also not sold on Stonecloaker. It seems too much like "danger of cool things". Which reminds me, have you considered having 1x Powder Keg or Neviyrral's Disk as an ET target? Maybe it'd be useless; it's just a thought.

[urdjur]

I was forced to cut Grunt to a 1-of after removing Mask of Memory. Holding back 1 creature is OK, but if you draw a second grunt and can't really play him, it sort of sucks. If I go back to MoM, I can +1 Grunt. However, MoM sucks as a Tutor target - you need 2 hits only to break even in card advantage. The answer is simple though - don't tutor for them, just play them.

@Heresy: Grunt isn't the only fat though - Epochrasite is one of my most common tutor targets (whenever I have Vial or Flickerwisp), so I can produce 4/4s pretty regularly. Also, a 3/3 vigilant flyer isn't exactly thin either, but I see your point :)


I'm also nervous that 4 Enlightened Tutors is overdoing it just a tad. 3 looked really perfect, but I'm not the one playing it, so maybe I'm wrong. I'm also missing the tutorable Tormod's Crypt.

Yeah, I'm still undecided on that. Some games I'm desperate for a tutor, other games I'm more like "oh, well, always useful". If I put back MoM, the added draw should enable me to go back to 3 tutors with little loss of efficiency.

The crypt served as Ichorid hate mostly - a torch that Ghostly Prison has now picked up. It's a round slower when you tutor for it, but lots broader (even against Ichorid, as it stops mischief already on the board), so it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.


You might be right about the number of white sources in my manabase. I think that 10 basic plains/10 utility lands is probably a pretty good guideline. However, I feel like playing multiples of some of the more basic Wayfarer targets is important, because there will be situations where you have Crucible (or ET), and want to abuse it, but don't have Wayfarer to make it possible. Having multiples of Mishra's Factory (which you do), Horizon Canopy, and something that hates nonbasics (I like having Wasteland as a less mana-intensive option) makes this much more plausible.

Yeah, there's still room for tweaking the mana base. For instance, you could do
+1 Horizon Canopy
-1 Karakas (maybe put this in the sideboard?)
-1 Mishra
+1 Wasteland (if you want non-basic hate over man lands - I'd prefer the 3rd factory however)

This is really fine tuning though, and it looks to be a meta choice which exact configuration is the best. I'm pretty convinced that 10 basics, no more than 5 colorless, + ancient den for emergencies is solid however.


Edit: I'm also not sold on Stonecloaker. It seems too much like "danger of cool things". Which reminds me, have you considered having 1x Powder Keg or Neviyrral's Disk as an ET target? Maybe it'd be useless; it's just a thought.

Stonecloaker is particularly useful to pull back a Flickerwisp so I can use the flicker effect again. It's also GY hate when it returns itself, can be used to reset Grunt etc. I see it mainly as Flickerwisp #5-6.

Yup, tried sweepers and they definetely fit the "danger of cool things" description. I even tried Engineered Explosives since I thought it was neat that I could produce green mana with canopy (lol). Anyway, it takes a heavy toll since you have such a nice split among permanents in 1cc, 2cc and 3cc - which is very good when your opponent tries to hurt you (because the success will only be partial), but very bad when you're trying to hurt your opponent.

The only use would be a single copy of powder keg in the board for sweeping tokens (and maybe chalice@1, moxen etc.). That could be useful, but Ghostly Prison does a good job in the main already to hose tokens. Still, there's plenty of SB room, so I might include it.

Alright, back to how to add the second copy of Grunt, which we all very much would like to run. I'm thinking MoM in the main isn't bad because we can always SB them out if we're up against many flyers. Something like

+1 Jötun Grunt
+2 Mask of Memory
-1 Stonecloaker
-1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Oblivion Ring

My gut feeling tells me this might be the most synergistic main deck combination. The single Stonecloaker will still be put to good use, and may be easier to support than 2. I'd also go Karakas -> Canopy #2, which should give this deck plenty of draw.

EDIT: So it looks like the sideboard is next up for overhauling. Except for obvious inclusions like missing Canonists, ORing etc. what do you think needs strengthening the most? I think 4x Tutor + 4x Canonist is sufficient against combo, so I'd like to broaden my options a bit. More grave hate is always useful. Has anyone tried the new Relic of Progenitus? I like the versatility in that it can function as a Phyrexian Furnace against Threshold keeping Tarmogoyf at a constant low, but also go *KABOOM* against Ichorid or 43 Land and crush them if they leave an opening, while drawing you a card. It's also easy to run alongside Grunt and Stonecloaker if needed.

[urdjur]

Alright, I've done some more testing and I'm very fond of the new main deck list. Some light testing so far has revealed that aggro-loam and green splashed goblins with krosan grip and tin-street hooligan were tougher than expected. This is reflected in an experimental sideboard that I'd like feedback on. First off:


3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Weathered Wayfarer

No surprises here I think. The only debatable slot here is the 4th wayfarer, but I think it's useful to have extra copies in the games where he dies quickly, but you still need him (aggro loam, landstill).

Also, 4x Tutor + 4x Canonist isn't the only defense you have against combo. There's also silver bullets against certain win conditions (like Ghostly Prison vs. EtW), but those 8 slots invalidate the idea of storm itself, regardless of win con.

2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

This rounds out the GY hate together with 2x Grunt + 1x Stonecloaker in the main. Wheel is better against strategies that rely on cards getting into the graveyard, such as Countryside Crusher in aggro-loam, the dredge mechanic itself, modular mechanic in affinity, or ichorid. It's also tech on yourself vs. decking (painter/grindstone). However, it can be bounced or destroyed easily, and multiples are redundant in play.

Relic can't. It can function with a small effect over time which is useful against Threshold or others running Tarmogoyf, or it can instantly kill Terravore etc. while drawing you a card - a fact that also makes it highly tutorable.

1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Absolute Law

These anti-red bombs help handle goblins, aggro-loam, dragon stompy, burn, imperial painter etc. Having two that covers slightly different bases is good.

1 Aura of Silence

This is the only enchantment I've found that helps against Enchantress. Serenity doesn't work due to seals, ORing or auras of their own + sterling grove to find them before it goes off. AoS slows them down however, provided they don't already have AoS or Seal out. It's also useful against Stax and Affinity, or just for extra removal.

1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai

This may seem strange, but it's awesome against decks that use land destruction and/or sweepers while trying to kill you with creatures. Aggro-loam and Landstill are good examples. Also good against board control if you put this in your land engine - amass tokens and whittle them down despite humility, wrath (just make new ones) etc. A non-counterable token generator, think about that.

1 Planar Collapse

I opted for this over EE/Powder Keg to kill tokens since a) it can't be pithed and b) it has other uses. For example, use it preemptively or to recover against goblins. You can play your man-lands under it. It also removes untargetables, though you might have to sacrifice a few weenies to do so. Very useful against Ichorid. Against some decks, this is basically Ghostly Prison #2 - against others, it's better.

1 Runed Halo

I'd like to fit 2 of these if possible since they are good in multiples and help fill holes in the otherwise "parfait" defense. Especially nasty against decks relying on a few big threats.

Discuss!

[Maëlig]

I love the concept, and the deck looks like a blast to play.
The two glaring weaknesses I see (they won't suprise anyone) are the vulnerability to deed/EE and the inherent problem with tutor + toolbox (card disadvantage and random draws) which makes counters a real pain. I don't think you can do much against the 1st one except maybe put that single needle back (at least in the SB), it is such a versatile card. Against the 2nd, I think mine excavation deserves a try in the SB. It can get back your silverbullets (either already used or discarded/countered) much better than grunt / mistveil plains + new tutor would do, and can compensate the CD created by tutor thanks to the number of creatures you play.

[urdjur]

Glad you like the deck. I agree that Deed is a problem - it's a problem for any deck based on permanents. EE though isn't so much of a problem, since the cc's are so spread out. How well can decks running Deed respond to Pithing Needle?

I'm guessing that if they can run Deed, they can also run Krosan Grip and friends? I mean, if they feel that they need it. So then we're only talking about a delay anyway. If that is so, then Aura of Silence seems better. If they play an early Deed (t3), we get a chance to take it out before they pay X and sacrifice (we can also do this with ORing, naturally). If they postpone, they must pay two more *AND* save up mana for X, because otherwise we'll still blast it. AoS can also be taken out by Krosan Grip, but it seems better than Pithing Needle.


tutor + toolbox (card disadvantage and random draws) which makes counters a real pain

You speak the truth. ETutor is bad vs. counters, which is why you should never run "bombs" against counter decks. For example, it would be really bad to have Aether Vial as a tutor target, because it aims at defeating strategies like Threshold and Landstill. However, it's a good idea to have Ghostly Prison or Umezawa's Jitte as a tutor target, because it aims at defeating Goblins which can't do anything about it. Even so, these "bombs" are so versatily that they are not useless against threshold/landstill either - it's just that your removal, vials, lands and creatures are more important in those MUs.


Against the 2nd, I think mine excavation deserves a try in the SB. It can get back your silverbullets (either already used or discarded/countered) much better than grunt / mistveil plains + new tutor would do, and can compensate the CD created by tutor thanks to the number of creatures you play.

Hah, Mine Excavation! I'd missed that one. I was looking at Argivian Find this morning and thinking I should try to fit a couple in the SB, but couldn't find any room. But Excavation could probably be run as a 1-of in many situations - against counters/disruption when you board out tutors, or against decks where that one bullet is extremeley useful. For example, against Threshold:

+2 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Mine Excavation
-3 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Ghostly Prison

Could be a strong sideboard. Thanks for the tip!

[BlindMage]

I'm not sure I like Relic of Progenitus, just because using it could put you in a position of RFGing things from your own graveyard that you want to recur.

On a related note, you know what would be helpful in the AggroLoam matchup? MD Tormod's Crypt that you're able to recur.

[urdjur]

I'm not sure I like Relic of Progenitus, just because using it could put you in a position of RFGing things from your own graveyard that you want to recur.

Theoretically, it could, but it won't. These are my recent experiences with this fantastic card:

In most games against graveyard decks, you'll only use the "scrabbling claws" effect. I've used Phyrexian Furnace over Crypt against Threshold before and found it superior, since it works over time to keep them off threshold.

Tormod's Crypt works differently against Thresh. With it on the table, they are afraid to attack or block with Mongoose, because it could be a 1/1 whenever you so desire. Goyf is another matter, because it will most likely get +1/+1 from Crypt itself as it's used, and you might have 2-3 other card types in your own yard as well, making it a 3/4 or 4/5 even after Crypt.

Now consider the implications of RoP. If they leave it be, it will slowly whittle away and clean up all yards just like Furnace/Claws. If they attack or block, they know that if you so please, their Goyfs will be 0/1 and Moongeese 1/1, and perish like *that*. If they try to remove it, it will also explode in their face. So what are they gonna do? All options are bad options, except Force of Will on sight.

So in most match ups, you'll never need to blow it up, because the opponent is AFRAID and will try to play around it, much like you try to play around Standstill against Landstill if you can. Look at aggro-loam. An aggro-loam player is stupid to use Devastating Dreams with this on the table, because he will end up with no cards in hand, no cards in the yard and no cards on the board. He must remove it first, but then you replace it with another, or with Wheel of Sun and Moon, or recur the first and play it again etc. etc. While playing your deck as normal between bomb droppings.

The only MU where I can actually see you blowing this up as routine is against Ichorid. And then we're talking plays like:

Turn 1: Enlightened Tutor for RoP
Turn 2: RoP, explode, draw card.

You pay a tutor to remove a third of their deck from the game and set them back immensly. I think that's worth it.

Sorry for the long rant, but just to make sure, remember who boldly spoke these words first: Relic of Progenitus will spell the doom of the Threshold archetype, mark my words. RoP is the ultimate GY hate card. Of ultimate destiny. And of DOOM! The only reason we won't see this as a 4-of in all competitive SBs in the future is that so many other decks rely on GY strategies (including the ubiquitous Goyf) of their own. For this deck, GY tricks is more like an added bonus, so we can afford to run them.


On a related note, you know what would be helpful in the AggroLoam matchup? MD Tormod's Crypt that you're able to recur.

Yes, main deck hate will make us better against some decks. But for the MD, I much prefer sticking the GY hate on 3-power flyers and 4-power beat sticks, since they also deal damage. I can't think of a card in the present list that I'd prefer cutting for MD Crypt. On that note, here's a "finished" list:

LANDS (20)
10 Plains
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Ancient Den
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Kor Haven
1 Dust Bowl

CREATURES (20)
-1cc
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Epochrasite
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
1 Stonecloaker

SPELLS (20)
-0cc
1 Zuran Orb
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
2 Mask of Memory
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Crucible of Worlds

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mine Excavation
1 Aura of Silence
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Absolute Law
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

I want to run this list through a gauntlet of relevant, diverse and powerful top 8 decks to see how it measures up. Tell me what you think about the gauntlet selection and if you're up for testing against any of the archetypes (this list or your own version).

Threshold (I think UGw will be most difficult, so it should be picked)
Landstill (UWb or some other solid list)
Vial Goblins
Ichorid
Stax
CRET Belcher (or other storm combo of your choice)
EPIC Painter (or other combo with counter back-up)
Mono Black (by inspection, this deck by Bill Stark (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=21660)should be the worst thinkable MU, hands down)
Aggro-Loam (or some other LftL-based deck)
Burn (a meta version with MD Flamebreaks, preferably)
Enchantress
Affinity
Faerie Stompy (Chalice, counters and opposing equipped flyers should be interesting)

I know I'll be able to test against Thres, Landstill, Gobbos, Mono Black, Aggro-Loam and Burn. For the rest, if anyone is willing to test them on MWS or something, I'd be much obliged. I might find the other decks locally too, but they are rarer to be sure.

[eq.firemind]

You need to test against various Survival and Rock decks.

[urdjur]

OK, consider Survival added to the list - that's also something I can test around here.

What's the definition of Rock anyway? Anything with Pern Deed and creatures in it? Don't think I've ever played against one.

[Mordel]

Rock is basically a deck that has deeds and a sort of midrange aggro control approach with decent disruption.

You should probably have Eva Green and Dragon Stompy on the gauntlet.

If you want to test against the nightmare match, look into playing against the newest version of truffleshuffle. I haven't played against it...like ever, but I have played around with it a bit and it seems like it would be a brutal matchup. I think it or Eva Green are the closest you will get to an actual "Rock" deck. They reside at opposite ends of the "Rock" spectrum too. In this I mean that Eva goes for the throat and has disruption in the form of discard and ld, while Truffleshuffle blows up the world and has an answer for just about anything. Since vampiric tutor isn't in the picture anymore and the format Rock originally came from is basically 1.x before the rotation of the duals and ice age etc, I really don't think you will ever see a true rock deck that basically goes for a little smattering of both blow up the world, discard and bullets. Legacy's sort of universal metagame dictates that most decks need to be very focused or they're screwed. I'm rambling though because I should probably go to sleep and I get all hot and bothered whenever I get to thinking about the oldschool extended days' Rock.

Anyway yeah, in case the ramblings made your mind sort of go blank: Test against Eva Green and Dragon Stompy. Experience against lesser seen matchups like MUC(both stack and permanent-based strats) and Truffleshuffle(both the older discard focussed build and the new blow up the world build) would be a good idea because you want to have at least a bit of experience against such decks...otherwise you'll end up having to learn a matchup on the fly in a tourney and that totally sucks ass, as exciting as it might be.

[Poron]

I was trying to build something very similar, and I have a question: why don't you consider Rune of Protection Green/Red MD?

this is monoW so activation cost is not a problem and it can be cycled anyway if drawn against the wrong colors.

[urdjur]

Ah, I'll have to check up on that Eva Green that I keep hearing so much about. I won't be testing *EVERY* deck out there, so I think one "rock-ish" deck will suffice. The purpose of the gauntlet is to test the deck, not give me play experience (though it will be a needed and useful side effect!) Anyway, let's pick Eva for the gauntlet.

I omitted Dragon Stompy from the list because I think Faerie Stompy will be much more difficult. If I can handle FS, DS should be easy since I have absolute law and CoP:Red in the board. Anyway, at least one "aggro chalice" deck should be in there.


I was trying to build something very similar, and I have a question: why don't you consider Rune of Protection Green/Red MD?

this is monoW so activation cost is not a problem and it can be cycled anyway if drawn against the wrong colors.

RoP: Red was tried MD but found not necessary (at least against burn, Zuran Orb does nicely here). I do run CoP: Red in the SB though, since enchantments > artifacts for games 2-3.

RoP: Green - against Tarmogoyf? A complete waste of a deck slot if you ask me, when you already have ORing, StP, Kor Haven, Jitte etc. + massive grave hate. And when boarding, I'd much rather use Runed Halo against a specific threat like that.

First post updated with new list, card choice explanations and gauntlet listings!

[Heresy]

I was Heresy creating the game : type 1.5 legacy testing.
Game 1 versus The King played a mono black control/with ld package deck.

I won the dice roll drawing Vial, momx2, serra avenger, plains, mishras and kor haven. He played 3 swamps in a row (turn after turn) to finally play a choking sand targetting my ancient den (wtf). I was adding counters, drew jitte, and won the game. Vial was stellar since i had no lands in the fourth turn or something for his waste and rain of tears.

Game 2 he starts the game with swamp, duress, go. I had mask, plains x 3, wayfarer x2, and vial. Of course he chooses my vial. I draw mom, play wayfarer and a plain. He duress me again for the mask. Later on I have a small army of moms and wayfarers (fetching mishras all night long). I win that one with jitte again on a Jotun Grunt. He played No Mercy and a few enchantments soon to be oblivioned. That's 2 win and no lose. I'll post more results over the days.

[kidsmokin]

Eva Green is definitely NOT a Rock deck. Same colors, but it operates on an entirely different philosophy. It's a derivative of Sui-Black, heavily tempo-based rather than based on X-for-1 trades in card advantage (such as Deed) that the Rock is based on. I'm just going to point that out.

But I do agree that Eva Green looks to be a problem for this deck. Shades, Goyfs, Stalkers all outclass your dudes any day (though Mom mitigates this to an extent), and backed with major disruption it's going to be an uphill fight, I think. The only thing is that though they do have 16 threats (if I remember correctly), for a Sui/Tempo-aggro deck it is on the lighter side, so potentially if you can deal with the first dude you could be sailing on clear waters. Having played Eva Green before this has happened to me a couple of times. Doesn't happen often at all, and ordinarily you want a hand with 2 threats or something, but heavy disruption hands are sometimes too hard to pass up (e.g. multiple Sinkholes, Thoughtseizes, etc.).

And as a suggestion, you may want to test against variations of some decks, e.g. Survival, Thresh and especially Landstill decks, etc., which have multiple forms, each that play out differently.

My question would be, though, is Mistveil Plains really worth it? Yes, it's searchable via both Wayfarer and Flagstones, but is that card going to affect the game enough to be run? It seems like a really clunky way to recur either dead creatures (where you'd have to reshuffle to redraw them sooner) or to act as GY/Goyf hate.

[eq.firemind]

Example: sacrifice Flagstones to Zuran Orb/Dust Bowl -> put Flagstones on bottom via Mistveil Plains -> find Flagstones with Wayfarer.
Mistveil Plains is the tutorable part of engine.

[Heresy]

Mistveil Plains is the tutorable part of engine.

Wayfarer is. Plains is for recurring back stuff soon to be in your hand with the cool card i mentioned first.

I wish we had wrath of god (we only have targeted removal). The dreadstill matchup was hard, i lost 1-2. Maindeck tormord's crypt is a necessity and aura of silence proved to be really good. We should try argivian find/mine excavation maindeck too.

[urdjur]

Good news on the MBC match-up! Dedicated LD should have problems with a mono-colored deck of 10+ basics, vial, wayfarer, crucible and tutorable land.

I've looked into Eva Green.
The bad news: Game 1 ain't pretty. I've found the best strategy to tutor in response to disruption, in order to replace the ORing/StP about to be discarded from my hand. Still, we just run to few relevant cards game 1 to keep up. Eva Green shouldn't focus on LD in this MU however, because it then sacrifices the explosiveness that we can't keep up with. And we can come back from LD very easily.
The good news: The sideboard, even though not designed for Eva Green, holds water. Ethersworn Canonist disrupts tempo further, and basically says "no dark ritual". The 2x Runed Halo is awesome, preempting discard if you're not Hymned already, or taking out a threat. Also, Eva Green - much like Aggro-Loam - typically can't SB very effectively against us. Still, games 2-3 are only even, not favorable.


I wish we had wrath of god (we only have targeted removal). The dreadstill matchup was hard, i lost 1-2.

Would WoG help the dreadstill MU? We do have WoG of sorts in Ghostly Prison - that's our mass creature control. So if Jitte on a flyer. What kind of things would you want WoG for? Could powder keg/EE do just as well? Also, we have Runed Halo in the board if shroud/protection is what's bothering you.


Maindeck tormord's crypt is a necessity and aura of silence proved to be really good. We should try argivian find/mine excavation maindeck too.

I think all these could be MD'd, the question is if it's better in a broad meta than the present MD. To discuss:

Ghostly Prison vs. Crypt/Relic: We run Ghostly Prison mainly against Ichorid, but it also serves well against Goblins. GP has the advantage of handling BOTH tokens and ichorids already on the board. GY hate only removes the ichorids and the bridge (though to be fair, it's hard to say how many 2/2 tokens are in play at the end of round 2). GY hate also does nothing against Goblins. Crypt/Relic (I'd go with Relic here, for reasons stated previously) improve other MUs as well though. Which is better to run MD?

Aura of Silence vs. more ORing: Is it good to have AoS in the main, or better to just have an extra ORing? How low can we go on the ORing total? I'd rather not go below 3, but then fitting AoS will be hard. Is it worth cutting threats for more removal/hate such as AoS?

Find/Excavation: We run relatively few enchantments/artifacts compared to original Parfait. Is it worth running these in the main? Must several be run for any significant effect, or is a single copy solid in itself, working like an extra late game tutor with card advantage? What if you draw it early with no significant targets presenting itself?

[Heresy]

Would WoG help the dreadstill MU? We do have WoG of sorts in Ghostly Prison - that's our mass creature control. So if Jitte on a flyer. What kind of things would you want WoG for? Could powder keg/EE do just as well? Also, we have Runed Halo in the board if shroud/protection is what's bothering you.

I was facing three meddling mage game 2 (or 3, i don't remember) the point is, targetted removal is not universal, and I think, in a parfait deck, you need a reset button.
Aura of silence is purely sideboard material but i found it to be very powerfull for what it does, especially on turn 3. Oblivion ring could be a 4 of.

[Heresy]

Ghostly Prison vs. Crypt/Relic: We run Ghostly Prison mainly against Ichorid, but it also serves well against Goblins. GP has the advantage of handling BOTH tokens and ichorids already on the board. Crypt/Relic (I'd go with Relic here, for reasons stated previously) improve other MUs as well though. Which is better to run MD?

We should run both of them maindeck IMO. Not only GP is stellar against deck who tends to over extend in the red zone but it proved to be somewhat usefull in the early game to stall some turns until you find appropriate answers to the problem youre facing. They have to choose between casting anything or attacking. Add at least one relic in the toolbox because you never know. And it CANTRIPS.

Sorry for double posting my bad. We need to add sensei's diviving top as more than a 1 of because you may not want to tutor for it instead of real bombs like, i dont know like worship or story circle...

[urdjur]

I was facing three meddling mage game 2 (or 3, i don't remember) the point is, targetted removal is not universal, and I think, in a parfait deck, you need a reset button.

Well I don't know. Most meddling mage players wouldn't name StP/Oring. What other cards that are actually played thwart spot removal? I'm thinking:
*Nimble Mongoose: We eat this with our creatures or block it with mom. Games 2-3 there's Runed Halo.
*Troll Ascetic: Who plays this? Anyway, Runed Halo or block it.
*Stromgald Crusader and friends: Again, Runed Halo or Jitte.
*Crystalline Sliver: This is a problem. You have to win by creature superiority or control them with Ghostly Prison.

Sure, mass removal is nice if you can run it, but Wrath or whatever isn't very good with so many creatures. The easiest mass kill spell for us to run is Planar Collapse (since it tutors as a 1-of). I've found it less useful than GP however. Another option would be Cataclysm, but it's not very strong in the present environment (even D&T lists have moved this to the SB, if that).


Not only GP is stellar against deck who tends to over extend in the red zone but it poved to be somewhat usefull in the early game to stall some turns until you find appropriate answers to the prroblem youre facing. They have to choose between casting anything or attacking. Add at least one relic in the toolbox because you never know. And it CANTRIP.

Hm, well maybe you could run both in the main. What would you cut for 1x Relic? I can only see us removing a threat, and that would most likely mean the 1x Stonecloaker since the effects overlap a bit. Still, I'm not sure Relic > extra 3 power flyer that hates on the grave in the main.


We need to add sensei's diviving top as more than a 1 of because you may not want to tutor for it instead of real bombs like, i dont know like worship or story circle...

Why run SDT at all? Sure, it's nice with the mixing effects and all, but we have draw from MoM and Horizon Canopy already. If we cut business spells for more cute tricks, we end up spending early mana for nothing.

[Vacrix]

no pithing needle in the board? stops countertop, deed, EE, and belcher

[Mordel]

Seal of cleansing seems like it would be helpful for dreadnaughts and standstill. The problem with aura, as much as I like is that it doesn't come down as quickly as a standstill can.

[Vacrix]

calciderm seems like it could be a sick side in vs. control no? you can draw their counters with vial and such and then drop this. or drop this with vial and landstill is fucked.

[Heresy]

The question is : why play parfait-beatdown over this?

http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=20508

[Mordel]

Preference? Metagame? Faster wins?

What a ridiculous post.