Bw Aggro

[Zappa]

Hi everyone! I wonder how many people here plays suicide black decks, mono black aggro, and the like. I've always find them interesting but I always tend to hit a brick wall against the likes of thresh and Landstill. I was wondering if a little change of creatures, can help out from those matches. A build that I have in mind is something along the lines of...

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Godless Shrine
1 Tained Field
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dak Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 4 Planar Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 True Believer
SB: 4 Disenchant

Dark Confidant - Pretty much my card drawing engine, low toughness but still an added beater.

Yixlid Jailer and Withered Wretch - For fighting off decks utilizing their graveyard.

Duress, Cabal Therapy, and swords to Plowshares - Pin-point removal of possible threats and for only for a mere 1 mana.

Pithing Needle - I am worried about cards that Will wipe my board clean =(

True Believer - He is there to somewhat help and slowdown my combo match up.

Disenchant - Pretty much much for cards like Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Moat, and etc.


The problem I am having is the whole issue between:

1) Dark Ritual vs Aether Vial
2) Duress vs Thoughtseize

Anythoughts or suggestions? pretty much the match ups I am trying to focus on are Thresh, Landstill, and Ichorid.

[Drac]

This deck just isnt good enough anymore.

All they have to do to win is counter your jitte. all of their creatures eat yours for breakfast. They dont have evasion and they dont do cute enough tricks. Im sorry but the printing of goyf just makes normal black agro look bad. The evolution of Black agro is eva green, which uses tarmogoyf and shade and tombstalker. those are creatures that pack a punch.

Goodluck with the deck

[Zappa]

I've been playing with mono black aggro, and suicide black... So theres no room for this deck anymore in Legacy? :cry:

[TheLion]

sure it is. but u should play at least 4 Nantuko Shades and 4 hymn to tourach. or sinkhole. 4 Jitte is too much. and I'm not sure about the Dark Rituals.

[Zappa]

sure it is. but u should play at least 4 Nantuko Shades and 4 hymn to tourach. or sinkhole. 4 Jitte is too much. and I'm not sure about the Dark Rituals.

Oh, I have Nantuko Shade but on a different mono black aggro. For this deck I am aiming at trying to improve my match ups versus decks reliant/ utilizing their grave yard. Which is why I main decked Wretch and Jailer.

As for Hymn to tourach, granted it is 2 for 1, I'de rather see what they have and actually be able to pick thier important cards. Rather than just leave it to chance.

4 Jitte isn't really a problem, its just too good to pass up. I wouldn't mind having an extra in my hand anyway's should the opponent get rid of it.

[Forbiddian]

I run a version of that with Sinkholes, Hymns, Vindicates, and Specters.

It basically rolls over and dies to Aggro but eats combo and control. I like the idea of Jitte to help beat Goblins, but I gotta be honest: I don't think that the deck is very competitive, and I think Eva Green is straight up better.

The games I win are because I run massive hate against two types of decks. Basically it wins 75%+ against storm combo and 80%+ against control but like 5% against Aggro.



Also, Hymn doesn't leave things to chance. Most people have a turn 1 play or they Force of Will your cheese, so they have like 4-5 cards left. Hymn takes away half their hand and puts you way up on topdecks. Also, it has the potential to hit land. Turn 2 hymn, taking their third land drop followed by turn 3 Wasteland or (or both) Sinkhole absolutely rapes, usually giving you 4-5 turns to try to get a Bob or Hippie online.

Control wants to trade with you and then kickstart their game with a draw spell that allows them to explode back into control of the game. To control, every card is valuable. It's either a 1:1 or better, a land, or a draw spell. If you go up on card advantage, you can throw off their mana base or prevent them from having any draw spells (or better).

Hymn allows you to beat that strategy by destroying their hand and giving you a little window where they can't get to 4 mana or can't find an answer so you can get in a few hippie swings or something bigger to win the game.

[raharu]

If you're going to play the Bw little dorks disruption archetype, it most likely should look like this (keeping the list as close to the original as I can):

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Godless Shrine
1 Tained Field
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Spectral Lynx/ Black Knight
3 Jotun Grunt/ Yixlid Jailer
4 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Spectral Lynx
2 Tombstalker

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Umezawa's Jitte



SB: 4 Extirpate/ Tormod's Crypt/ Planar Void/ Leyline of the Void (listed in the order I'd play them)
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 True Believer
4x free slots


In all honestly, with 21 creatures in the deck I'm somewhat leaning towards suggesting Mask of Memory, but since a grand total of 2 of those creatures have evasion, I'd rather not. Personally, I like a creature-heavy build more, but I've found a bit less success with it than a more agro-control list like this one:



Mana: 18
Windswept Heath x4
Bloodstained Mire x4
Scrubland x4
Swamp x3
Plains x3

Creatures: 18
Mother of Runes x4
Isamaru, Hound of Konda/ Ashling, the Extinguisher/ Spectral Lynx** x2
Jotun Grunt x2
Dark Confidant x4
Serra Avenger x3
Tomstalker x3

Artifacts: 6
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Jitte x3

Planeswalkers: 2
Ajani Goldmane x2 (if you’re playing white and creatures you HAVE TO PLAY THIS. I’m not even kidding, it just wins all over the place. Try it).

Disruption: 8
Thoughtseize x4
Cabal Therapy x4

Removal: 8
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x4

**I’ve been wanting to run Ashling as a test slot, but have yet to get around to it. My reasoning is that She is CA, board control, and in the worst case scenario, a 4/4 body. You’d think that without evasion she wouldn’t be worth it, but with Mother of Runes and Jitte (which means that creatures who would normally get blocked because they’re smaller than the intended blocker don’t get blocked, because of the threat of a active Jitte on a bigger creature) things tend to slip through more often than not. Then again, there really isn’t much need for more creature removal in the MD. Actually, I’d like to run Infest/ Hideous Laughter (I mean the Instant-speed Infest from Kamigawa, whatever that is) in that slot, but it kills Mother and DC, which are gigantic misplays. Those two cards make the deck. At any rate, I haven’t gotten around to testing Spectral Lynx either, but I assume it’s better than Isamaru anyway.

The superjank version (basic lands, Gemstone Mines , Terramorphic Expanses, -1 DC, -2 Jitte, +1 E. Tutor, +1 SoLS, +1 more jank, Duresses, other sub-par choices) of the second list had a pretty good 5 color threshold MU and was solid against randomjank.dec and rouge agro. I don’t know about combo and (good*) control.

*My Metagame is a wasteland…

[GenghisTom]

withered wretch and jailer mainboard?

sinkhole for sure
hymn for sure
vindicate for sure

you should try
smallpox
crucible of worlds (wasteland, small pox, fetches)

keep your creatures to a minimun

spectral lynx
bob (you already have)
maybe exalted angel or some other powerful finisher

swords is good
durress is good
maybe thoughtseize if you have room

i think jitte and dark rit shouldnt be in this deck, the curve is already fine without dark rit and jitte is uneccesarry with all the removal you already have

[Aggro_zombies]

Using Tidehollow Sculler for additional disruption seems like a good idea. At least, it seems better than Yixlid Jailer.

For reference:
Tidehollow Sculler
:w::b:, uncommon
Artifact Creature - Zombie Somethingorother
When ~ comes into play, look at target opponent's hand and choose a nonland card from it. Remove that card from the game.
When ~ leaves play, return the removed card to it's owner's hand.
2/2

Not sure on the exact wording, but it's the same as Mesmeric Fiend's, whatever that is.

From Shards.

EDIT: Also, Sinkhole is terrible after turn three or four. Don't run it.

EDIT 2: Thoughtseize is infinitely better than Duress in so many matchups it isn't funny.

[Mordenkaynen]

Yeah, the creatures are not aggressive enough.
Withered Wretch -> Jotun Grunt may be, but not 4 copies, of'course. Cartophage -> Isamaru. Duress -may be> thoughtseiz. But still. Not aggressive. Reanimate can be an option (discard their guys, then return, or just reanimate yours after death). TS is intersting, but not for this deck - not fast, dis-synergy with Grunt/Wretch.. no way. It's a finisher for more controlish decks. I don't know really. Angel? Not that manabase. Avenger is cool, but is not a great beater and is slow. Is negator possible for your meta?
May be for beating with small guys lynx and MoR are good, but I'm not sure.

[raharu]

withered wretch and jailer mainboard?
That's what I said.


sinkhole for sure
NO. In a non-'suicide' shell (i.e. Eva Green, Red Death) you'll be 100% unhappy with it. Just because the deck runs wastelands doesn't mean it needs Sinkhole. Without Dark Ritual (which doesn't go in a BW zoo/ Bunnies shell), Snuff Out, and other tempo cards you'll definitely regret it.

hymn for sure
Not always. Hymn isn't so good when you don't have the tempo tools of Suicide shells.

vindicate for sure
As much as I love the card, I can't instantly agree. It does slow down the deck, but BW agro/ Bunnies should go for a more


you should try
smallpox
crucible of worlds (wasteland, small pox, fetches)
Oh God no. Pox is a resource control deck. This is an agro deck packing disruption. They couldn't be further apart, and trying to mash the two strategies together will only cause enormous dis-synergy and make the deck cease to function properly in either direction.


keep your creatures to a minimun[\QUOTE]
No. It's an agro deck. Trying to make it into shitty Pox isn't making it better.

[QUOTE=GenghisTom;283472]spectral lynx
bob (you already have)
maybe exalted angel or some other powerful finisher

Yes, yes, and something like Tombstalker? Yeah.


swords is good
durress is good
maybe thoughtseize if you have room
wtf? Duress over Thoughtseize? Nosir. Thoughtseize takes the first four disruption slots automatically, no question. It's the superior disruption spell in comparison to anything, and if you're running spells that say "Discard" anywhere on them, you ought to be playing 4x Thoughtseize. The lifeloss is entirely insignificant in a deck like this.


i think jitte and dark rit shouldnt be in this deck, the curve is already fine without dark rit and jitte is uneccesarry with all the removal you already have

Dark Rit isn't any good because the deck isn't built to capitalize on the tempo it creates, and Jitte is good because it is a finisher, helps keep the board clean, balances your life total, and is better in a deck geared a bit more towards the mid-game like BW Zoo/ Bunnies.

[GenghisTom]

I now realize my suggestions were indeed geared towards a strategy counteractive to that of an aggro deck. Please ignore my previous pointers. I'll be more thoughtful in the future.

-gen

[Ghostfire45]

Using Tidehollow Sculler for additional disruption seems like a good idea. At least, it seems better than Yixlid Jailer.

For reference:
Tidehollow Sculler
:w::b:, uncommon
Artifact Creature - Zombie Somethingorother
When ~ comes into play, look at target opponent's hand and choose a nonland card from it. Remove that card from the game.
When ~ leaves play, return the removed card to it's owner's hand.
2/2

Yes this guy is amazing. He is in the build i am currently constructing.

As for recomendations I am quite fond of Gerrards Verdict. The tempo is incredable. They discard TWO cards for TWO mana and you gain THREE life for each land card discarded. This is amazing, and really needs to be considered as at least a 2 of.