[Discussion] The Best Graveyard Hate

[The Rack]

After my epiphany that Extirpate is only good against Life from the Loam, I figured we might as well have a discussion on what the best graveyard hate is. Yixlid Jailer is very good against Ichorid and Life from the loam, but it is easier to kill. Leyline of the Void prevents any deck from abusing the graveyard immediatly and they have to deal with it before they plan to move on with their gameplan. However, it costs 4 mana and is a black enchantment which can be bounced long enough for them to go off. The next on the list is Tormod's Crypt. It costs zero mana and can tap in response to everything except grip. Being an artifact it dodges a lot of hate but gets hit by Pithing Needle. The last one is Relic of Progenitus. It can also be needled, but makes Goyf a 0/1 effectively and cantrips. The best thing is that you can remove one card at a time for a reccuring gy disruption if need be. Any thoughts on them?

[thefreakaccident]

After my epiphany that Extirpate is only good against Life from the Loam, I figured we might as well have a discussion on what the best graveyard hate is. Yixlid Jailer is very good against Ichorid and Life from the loam, but it is easier to kill. Leyline of the Void prevents any deck from abusing the graveyard immediatly and they have to deal with it before they plan to move on with their gameplan. However, it costs 4 mana and is a black enchantment which can be bounced long enough for them to go off. The next on the list is Tormod's Crypt. It costs zero mana and can tap in response to everything except grip. Being an artifact it dodges a lot of hate but gets hit by Pithing Needle. The last one is Relic of Progenitus. It can also be needled, but makes Goyf a 0/1 effectively and cantrips. The best thing is that you can remove one card at a time for a reccuring gy disruption if need be. Any thoughts on them?

Tormod's crypt > Relic > leyline > jailer


Of coarse, extirpate is better than them all. :wink:

[Nihil Credo]

There are several elements to consider.

The first one is simply the synergy of the hate cards with the deck itself. I won't use Planar Void if my own deck relies on the graveyard; if I use creature/artifact/instant/sorcery tutors, I will devote one of the hate slots to the appropriate card type, even if I might pick something different for the others. And of course, if there exists a hate card that happens to fit a linear (such as Crypt and Heap Doll with Affinity), that's a very strong argument to choose it. Subtler synergies such as favouring Leyline in a deck that mulligans well, or Crypt/Void/Extirpate in one that has access to Turn 1 digging, should also be considered.


The second one is which graveyard decks I am actually preparing for. This means analysing both the metagame - does Loam exist on your side of the Atlantic? Does anyone still play Breakfast? - and the specific weaknesses of my deck. A many-coloured Survival deck with lots of cheap creatures can probably hold Ichorid at bay quite effectively, but it's a Burning Wish away from obliteration against Aggro Loam.


The third one, and by far the most overlooked, is what role the hate is supposed to play in my games.

Do I need to totally shut down the opponent's engine - because I have a slow clock, or perhaps because their engine trumps mine as long as it's active (Aggro Loam, meet 43-Lands, nice LD you've got there)? Then I can't rely on simple 1-for-X tools like Tormod's Crypt or Offalsnout and its ilk, I want something that deals with a threat for the rest of the game. Moreover, I must make sure that my permanent answers will actually be permanent - Leyline of the Void is the most powerful hate card in existence, but can I prevent it from being bounced, or at least replay it immediately when it is bounced? Is my Yixlid Jailer just going to elicit a "Survival for Murderous Redcap"? Extirpate is popular in this role exactly because it can't be answered, except preemptively.

Do I simply want a speed bump to drop with minimal effort, so that I can execute my own plan before the opponent gets back into shape? Tormod's Crypt is a pretty good effect that still lets you curve out like in Game 1. Creatures like Jailer, Offalsnout, or Faerie Macabre are not nearly as efficient, but they double as threats or chumpblockers.
The main question here is how much I am willing to hurt my 60 cards to fit the hate in, especially if I have dead MD cards (although that's unlikely for combo and aggro). Generally, it depends on how much I rely on the hate to tilt the race in my favour - in other words, on how bad my chances were in game 1.


Maybe it is just a specific card that gives me fits. If I can comfortably keep Survival's board clear as long as it doesn't have a Genesis to get back into the game, or if I can nullify Ichorid's hordes with Prisons and Moats yet I'm kold to a Simic Sky Swallower, then perhaps a Ground Seal will satisfy my needs without even investing a card?


Finally, I should consider if and how my opponent is going to answer my hate. Ichorid is definitely going to have Chains of Vapor ready if I show black mana in game 1 - am I going to lose to them? Aggro Loam has Chalice of the Void for Extirpate, EE/Krosan Grip/Burning Wish for permanent-based hate, and can keep a cycling land available to dodge non-split second graveyard removal - can I fight through this and still consistently turn off his engine, or perhaps I should try a different approach (say, Blue Elemental Blasts)?

[DalkonCledwin]

Relic

The disadvantage (and advantage) of Relic, is that if you use its "Big Guns" you have to take out both graveyards... which can screw over just as many decks as it helps... for example, it screws over your own goyf, your own lavamancer, etc... etc... etc... so yeah, I would say that relic is probably best relicated to the not-so-usable pile of cards when you are using cards that rely on the graveyard yourself... at least that is my interpretation.

[Forbiddian]

Planar Void is probably the best hate if you can support it. It'll remove their Narcos (unless they have instant speed milling).

I'd say:

Crypt > Leyline > Wheel > Extirpate > Jotun Grunt > Samurai of the Pale Curtain > Jailer, although Jailer can be much stronger if you can support the 2 hits/turn and turn it into a real clock. Relic and Planar Void are ?s because they depend on your deck. I think Relic would be solid in Goblins (also helping to deal with Goyfs), but you'd never in a million years use it in Thresh which needs the big goyfs to beat Ichorid anyway). Same with Void.

The problem with the Jailer is that Ichorid can slow play against Jailer, since the cards still safely enter the graveyard. Then they can Chain of Vapor and win right there.

Wheel, Planar Void, Leyline, Crypt, and Wheel actually prevent the cards from going to the graveyard (or from staying in the graveyard). If Ichorid gets a Chain of Vapor, they have to win or Cabal Therapy immediately (or vs. Leyline they get a few turns if they had CoV in their hand). Otherwise you just replay the Wheel and shut them down again.

Jailer forces Ichorid to find an answer, but doesn't slow them down a whole lot until they do.


Pretty much all the hate has drawbacks and benefits. A good blend for graveyard hate is to come from multiple angles, to force Ichorid to bring in all their sideboard (which drastically slows them down) and force them to have the exact answer that they wanted.


Of course vs. other decks, the hate changes. Jailer is next-to-useless against Loam, which laughs at the 2/1 beater and can still Life from the Loam for a 3:1 whenever they draw it (and deal with the Jailer easily with Seismic Assault or a 10/10 trampling Terravore). Extirpate is quite strong in that MU, especially since Loam can usually deal with a problematic enchantment before losing too many lands to Leyline or Planar Void (and they can save Loams from Crypts).

[Finn]

Jailer is next-to-useless against Loam, which laughs at the 2/1 beater and can still Life from the Loam for a 3:1 whenever they draw it (and deal with the Jailer easily with Seismic Assault or a 10/10 trampling Terravore).I think we get the point you are making about Jailer, but his ability to shut down their primary engine while beating for 2 each turn is certainly not next-to-useless.
Jailer forces Ichorid to find an answer, but doesn't slow them down a whole lot until they do.I don't agree with this either. Are you aware that he shuts off dredge? And flashback? And Bridge? And the entire deck? Ichy and friends are utterly hosed by this guy.

Also, keep in mind that hate on the back of a critter usually has the advantage of creating a clock while it hoses. But in the end I don't know why this thread needs to stay open. Nihil's self quote seems to have put it all into perspective.

[Jaiminho]

Planar Void is probably the best hate if you can support it. It'll remove their Narcos (unless they have instant speed milling).

Planar Void removes another player's Narcomoebas anytime. Both are triggered abilities and APNAP makes the ability from Planar Void resolve first, removing the Narcomoeba that just hit the graveyard before it's put into play.

[quicksilver]

Planar Void removes another player's Narcomoebas anytime. Both are triggered abilities and APNAP makes the ability from Planar Void resolve first, removing the Narcomoeba that just hit the graveyard before it's put into play.

Unless they dredge on your turn with colessium. Also it doesn't shut down any bridge from belows in the yard.

[Jaiminho]

Unless they dredge on your turn with colessium. Also it doesn't shut down any bridge from belows in the yard.

Yeah. I kinda mistook that "instant speed" thing as if you could respond to something, not related to on which turn it's being played. I seriously need to read stuff. It's like my 10th misread out of 8 posts.

[The Rack]

I like Leyline better than Crypt and other gy hate because it is as fast as gy hate can get. There is nothing in the game that comes online before Leyline. They have to deal with it. Crypt can be baited and played around but Leyline can't. It can really only be played in black decks which might be a downside for nonblack layers but it's never a dead draw. Even if you draw multiples that's just one more for them to bounce or destroy. I say Leyline>Crypt>Wheel>everything else

[Pulp_Fiction]

I like Leyline better than Crypt and other gy hate because it is as fast as gy hate can get. There is nothing in the game that comes online before Leyline. They have to deal with it. Crypt can be baited and played around but Leyline can't. It can really only be played in black decks which might be a downside for nonblack layers but it's never a dead draw. Even if you draw multiples that's just one more for them to bounce or destroy. I say Leyline>Crypt>Wheel>everything else

QFT but I would say Leyline>Crypt>Planar Void>Wheel>Relic then everything else. But Leyline is hands down the best grave hate in the game, its starts on turn 0 and lasts until its removed.

[FoolofaTook]

The best graveyard hate is to actually have 7 cards that affect the opponent's graveyard in the 75. Ideally that would be 4 Leyline and 3 Tormod's Crypt.

I have played a bunch of decks that relied on just Leyline to shut down the graveyard and it's a really dicey proposition, particularly given that against a good dredge deck you're going to lose game one 70%+ of the time. You're then going to be mulling more often than not at the start of game two to get your Leyline without even knowing for certain against many decks if the opponent has removed a substantial percentage of his dredge when he sideboarded.

The only decks that I've been happy having Leyline as the sole graveyard hate in were decks where I was maindecking Leyline and then only because I lost game one against dredge decks less often than I otherwise would.

The real question is whether or not your meta has a lot of dredge in it. If it does then you're best off putting enough grave hate in the sideboard that you don't have to mull for it all that often at the start of game two.

Leyline of The Void
Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Extirpate
Faerie Macabre/Yixlid Jailer

That's the order I'd go looking for the seven depending on what the colors and theme of the deck was. In a really dredge heavy meta I'd find a way to maindeck Leyline or Wheel. Those are the only two cards that just tell dredge to go away until they find removal or bounce. Obviously you need to have proactive strategies in your deck that benefit from Leyline or Wheel to make them non-dead draws when the opponent is not using his graveyard.

[mercenarybdu]

Relic is the best one of all even in the early game. You get to kill cards then if the situation is out of hand you have the option of pulling the trigger in killing all garbage bins.

[kicks_422]

But Relic only shines when it's in the proper deck, one of the things mentioned in Nihil's post way above. I've been loving it in mono-Red Goblins, making me miss Warren Weirding a lot less.