[Brainstorming] Lim-Dul's Vault

[Aemelia]

Hi there,

As a longtime forum reader going active I was brainstorming about something and I appreciate all help I can get.

I was thinking about Lim-Dul’s Vault, as everyone know occasionally used in combo, like Cephalid Breakfast. (and may I say Dracoplosion?).

But what about using it in a control-aggro deck as a bad version of Vampiric Tutor??

I was thinking in the direction of Napster, for reference:

Napster APB John Finkel
//Lands
3 Rishadan Port
1 Dust Bowl
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Spawning Pool
17 Swamp

//Creatures
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Skittering Horror
1 Skittering Skirge
1 Stromgald Cabal
1 Thrashing Wumpus

//Spells
4 Dark Ritual
1 Persecute
1 Eradicate
1 Engineered Plague
1 Stupor
2 Unmask
1 Massacre
3 Vicious Hunger
4 Vampiric Tutor
4 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress
1 Rapid Decay

Positive Points of LDV:

- It’s blue, so pitches to Force (minor).
- It’s definatly the card that comes closest to usefull in a controllish shell. (this is regarding to todays tutors)
- Instant speed.
- Let’s you stack the top 5 cards of your deck.

Downside:

- It arguable becomes better when there are more copies of the tutorable card in your deck.
- It costs UB, so possibly making your manabase less stable.
- ??

Of course this would require a whole different set up then Napster, I was just asking myself, is something like that even do-able?

So, is this even possible? Or is Lim-Dul’s Vault strictly a combo card? Any suggestions on inclusions?

Of course this would require a whole different set up then Napster, I was just asking myself, is something like this even do-able?

Any suggestions/remarks are appreciated.

Regards,

Aemelia

[GreenOne]

LDV can be useful in case you want a deck with both a toolbox and a combo finish. It already has some uses in storm combo, but i guess it could be great in a deck that can just sometimes tutor for the 2nd piece in a 2 card combo and win.

Here's a deck that i built long time ago when Dreadnought+stifle became legal.

// Lands
2 [OD] Island (2)
4 [RAV] Watery Grave
1 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
1 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [7E] Duress
1 [US] Exhume
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Buried Alive
3 [MI] Shallow Grave
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [TE] Corpse Dance
2 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
1 [R] Dark Ritual
3 [TE] Lotus Petal

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 3 [NE] Massacre
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Sure, it was a combo deck, but LDV was great in assembling the stifle+12/12 as a plan B.

[Forbiddian]

Vutor is not good in aggro. If you take out the Yawmoth's Wins, it's not even good in Finkel's deck.

I hope you understand that the reason why Napster is such a strong deck is it does ridiculous stuff off of Yawg Wills on turn 4-5 (even stronger with huge cabal coffers drops). The vutor is used to set up the ridiculous Win turns around turn 4 or turn 5 where 4+ cards are recurred right there behind discard walls.


Vutor costs 1 card, which is pretty devastating for an aggro deck that lacks any form of draw. You can grab Persecute or something to try to get card advantage, but the decks that are most-harmed by that usually have countermagic, so they can counter the persecute and grab a 2:1 on the UB Lim-Dul's Vault.

Or perhaps the card you're forced to dig for isn't even a 2:1. Even stuff like Damnation is kinda borderline, a lot of people lay down one threat at a time (or win before turn 4).

To Finkel, it's 100% worth the one card and the time investment because he has a strong toolbox AND he can default tutor for Yawgmoth's Win which can easily go for +3 or +4 card advantage.

You might have a strong toolbox, but if you're looking at a fairly neutral board, you have nothing to break the game wide open (in Legacy). Neither black nor blue has a card like Yawgmoth's Will.

[Aemelia]

While I do understand that Napster is a strong deck because of default tutoring for Yawg Will. The thing I thought was maybe you could search CA outside of grave manipulation, maybe even tutor for something like Moat/Humility, Coffers or something else big/game altering.

And No, it wasnt meant for a aggro deck, but for control. (That's the reason I stated Control-aggro, instead of aggro-control)

It should be possible to search something that generates CA, either virtually like Moat/Humility or things like a missing (semi) combo piece.

PS. While I do understand that you mean Vampiric Tutor with Vutor, it's still rather confusing. I'm not against abbreviations and nothing personal, just saying..

[Mordenkaynen]

Well, consider counterbalanse for the starting point, I think. It seems to be good in a toolbox deck (also because usually it's good with SDT (filters proper tool for the situation)). Also dark confidant seems interesting (but too stupid, may be).

Some tools (not all are suitable, though): E.plague, EE, needle, lurking finishers (chimeric idol, phyrexian totem), spot removal, reanimate (can pull opponent's guys also), perish, tombstalker, threads of disloyalty; crucible, arcane lab.; I wouldn't flood with ideas from other colors, but white seems the most suitable (but green has DEED and GRIP).

With all those options the danger of cool thing is the worst our "friend" here.

[Aemelia]

I'm actually quite interested in off-color options, especially white. (This because i just love StP)

Also I'm not to sure about the counter-top engine, although top is nice, (instant answer possibility), i'm not to sold on limitting my "bombs" on a cc-curve needed for counterbalance.

But I will make a test list tomorrow and run it through a couple of opponents in MWS. (Ye, I know not the most thrusthworthy..)

Results coming in tomorrow.

For now, keep the ideas coming.

Regards,

Aem

[Mordenkaynen]

exp white
Except white or what do you mean?

[Aemelia]

Last night I made a UBW control deck with LDV.

Trying to use big game-altering cards like Coffers/Decree's (Justice and Pain) and the like. (No Moats, Humility's and other enchantments I couldn't defend in that build)

Sometimes it does well, sometimes it just flat-out looses.

Results:

1-2 Eva Green (well the deck was shaky but the manabase was even worse)
2-0 Ceph Breakfast (Stp -> LDV -> Coffers to fuel a Decree of Justice -> win)
1-1 UGR Thresh (I'm not to sure this is reliable, and worse of all: he was a really bad player to begin with..)

I'm quite sure this was not the way to go, (For those interested I will post a decklist if you want me to, as I can't do that right now .. at work you know) but I still really would want to make this work.

Maybe it just has to be a control deck with a combo'ish finish.


Regards, Aem.

[FoolofaTook]

Lim-Dul's Vault is under-rated in Control themes. It can top deck what you need for Counterbalance, as an example, while also searching for silver bullets. It also pitches to Force of Will, Unmask and Contagion, which you'd think would make it an interesting inclusion in a UBw Control theme.

[Mordenkaynen]

Well, there is some sence in using LDV by tutoring as both e.tutor and m.tutor. Usually e.tutor can do the job, LDV can also fetch:
- finisher (TS and others)
- extirepate
- wrath/damnation
- hand-disruption (therapy, hymn, ...)
What other in general? I don't know now.