ATTN: Combo players (storm based)

[Zappa]

This is for the people who has experience when it comes to storm based combo (tendrils/warrens). Or those who have played plenty of games or had some experience playing against them. I wanted to invest money on a deck, but I am not sure which one to play. I've been reading the threads for those decks, but, everyone has good arguments backing them up... so end result is I just got even more confused :cry:

The four decks I was wondering if anyone can give me some insight on which one may be worth the investment, would be a greta help. I apologize though if it seems like I may be comparing apples to oranges, but I've been reading at wizards, starcity, salvation, and the source for those decks. But I just end up being confused even more... :cry:

Basically the choices is:

- Iggy-pop
- Fetchland Tendrils (FT)
- Spanish Inquisition (SI)
- The Epic Storm (TES)

Anyone have experience with any of the said decks? If so, would you please be able to comment on a few things?

1) What is your average gold fish?
2) Is the deck easily disrupted?
3) What are you worried seeing coming out, and do you scoop when you see it come out?

Thank you.

[Bahamuth]

Those different decks trade speed for consistency and protection. The order:

-SI (Fastest, but inconsistent and lacking protection)
-TES (Fast with a good amount of cantrips and protection)
-FT (Slow, but very protected and has a big package of cantrips/tutors to improve consistency)

IggyPop is outdated. Don't play it.

[Mayk0l]

My advice to you would be to wait a little while to see what happens to Ad Nauseum and what deck does best on it and invest in that one.
If you want to get started now, I'd search out the cards every deck plays: Ad Nauseum, LED, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual and so on.

If you're paranoid, you might want to wait until the next bannings to see what gets the axe (if anything).

[socialite]

TES

Thanks Cook.

[The Rack]

Fetchland Tendrils is a really powerful deck. It can get out of just about any situation. I really like it. My 2 cents.

[Ectoplasm]

In my opinion the 2 worthiest stormcomb decks are TES and solidarity (high tide/reset) but then again, Ad Nauseam is making a very big impact right now. AN will probably get banned at some point so if I had to give a piece of advice (even though I dont play combo) I'd say go for TES, as it seems like the most consistent stormdeck out there.

[Bryant Cook]

I personally like TES, since well I created it. With the addition of Ad Nauseum, it's become much better. I took 1st in a small event yesterday with this list...


Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Forbidden Orchard

Creatures
2 Simian Spirit Guide

Spells
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ad Nauseum
3 Ponder
3 Chrome Mox
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB:1 Diminishing Returns
SB:1 Ill-Gotten Gains
SB:1 Cleanfall
SB:1 Tendrils of Agony
SB:1 Empty the Warrens
SB:1 Grapeshot
SB:3 Pyroblast
SB:3 Shattering Spree
SB:3 Vexing Shusher


It has protection for when you need it, it's very fast, and consistent. The average was about 1.75 before Ad Nauseum, now it's probably 1.5 or lower. I don't scoop to anything (3-4 hate pieces is an exception), the deck has an out to everything (See: Burning Wish). I don't think the deck is easily disrupted, with Chant and Duress to help you out. It can also win before hate comes down quite easily. Not to mention, even after Thoughtsieze/Duress/Therapy the deck can still win turn 1-2 most of the time.

[MULocke]

I agree that TES is the best option of those three (four), as it is both fast and hard to disrupt, the downside being you need to be very experienced with that particular build. One more suggestion I have (Ectoplasm mentioned it briefly) is solidarity. I really like it because it's really hard to disrupt and is really consistent (relative to combo decks, obv). Plus, no one expects to see it anymore and it's a blast to play. The only problem is counterbalance. If there's a lot of counterbalance in your meta, play TES.

[GreenOne]

SI is too much inconsistent and has very little tourney backup that say it's good.

IggyPop is outdated tech. Not worth it.

Solidarity is on the downside, even if still a good combo deck, depending on the meta.

TES and FT are both valid options, but TES is a lot cheaper to build and easier to play. It also has just gain Ad Nauseam, which FT can't benefit.
I'm a FT player, but TES is probably the best choice for you. You can have it for less money and learn a lot of things with it. When you'll be good with combo vs itself and combo vs the format then you can proxy FT and give it a try.

[Zappa]

Okay, so the other websites I asked about this both mentioned FT and TES, I'll have to browse on threads for FT and TES and see if they have any difference.


@GreenOne:
You said you're a FT player right? Maybe you can share your experience with the deck, not really asking anymore which one of the two is better but I wanted to know:

1) What's your average goldfish?
2) Is FT resilient to hate? (Assuming only 1 hate card appears)
3) Can it recover in time after being hit by a Thoughtsize + Hymn?

==================================


@Bryant Cook
You have so many threads that it will probably take me atleast two weeks to read over :laugh:. But I do have a few questions since you're extremely experienced with the deck.

1) Other threads and posts I've read said something along the lines of...
"Despite being resilient, the deck also has problems of inconsistencies, having to resort to EtW for a low storm count, or maybe getting lucky and building just enough storm for tendrils"
Is that true? Is it hard to rack up storm count with this deck due to having to add more room for the cards that makes it resilient.

2) I have read your posts regarding your testing vs thresh. Good job by the way, but I am curious about something, have you tested TES against Ichorid-combo yet? I asked coz I heard that TES is hurt more by discard compared to Iggy. Since Ichorid-combo is also very fast while in the mean time while amassing an army via bridge from below, I could imagine it going crazy with flashing back their cabal therapies. Have any experience versus that match up?

[Bryant Cook]

@Bryant Cook
You have so many threads that it will probably take me atleast two weeks to read over :laugh:. But I do have a few questions since you're extremely experienced with the deck. Haha, you just have to read the current stuff. Not TES's history over the last 2 1/2 years.


1) Other threads and posts I've read said something along the lines of...
"Despite being resilient, the deck also has problems of inconsistencies, having to resort to EtW for a low storm count, or maybe getting lucky and building just enough storm for tendrils"
Is that true? Is it hard to rack up storm count with this deck due to having to add more room for the cards that makes it resilient. Not true at all, ETW has been pushed to the sideboard because it's no longer needed. Especially now with Ad Nauseum the storm counts get ridiculous, I killed somebody saturday with a storm of 27 with a grapeshot. If that gives you any idea, storm comes too easy nowadays. Not to mention with Ad Nauseum, turn 1 kills are becoming very common.

Don't believe everything you hear. ;-p


2) I have read your posts regarding your testing vs thresh. Good job by the way, but I am curious about something, have you tested TES against Ichorid-combo yet? I asked coz I heard that TES is hurt more by discard compared to Iggy. Since Ichorid-combo is also very fast while in the mean time while amassing an army via bridge from below, I could imagine it going crazy with flashing back their cabal therapies. Have any experience versus that match up? The Ichorid match-up with TES having Ad Nauseum is just unfair for them, I went 4-0 against ichorid on saturday. 3 of these were turn 1 kills. I've done other testing against ichorid afterwards, I lost 3 of 10 games.

[MULocke]

Also, if you're worried about Thoughtseize + Hymn, TES is the way to go. The other storm builds have real problems with discard, but TEs can recover better and faster, as well as just win first. Just be careful because if there's a lot of dragon stompy or other stax, you can have problems (such as, the die roll determining the match).

Just a side note, I noticed you posted on the wizards forums, too. Their responses are classic. "Play Iggy-Pop! It's awesome!" Heh. Maybe two years ago...

[blarknob]

All the old storm decks are obsolete now that Ad Nauseum has been printed. I would give it a little while and see what the best Ad Naus lists end up looking like and would definately avoid anything that still calls itself by one of the old deck names.

[Shriekmaw]

SI is too much inconsistent and has very little tourney backup that say it's good.

IggyPop is outdated tech. Not worth it.

Solidarity is on the downside, even if still a good combo deck, depending on the meta.

TES and FT are both valid options, but TES is a lot cheaper to build and easier to play. It also has just gain Ad Nauseam, which FT can't benefit.
I'm a FT player, but TES is probably the best choice for you. You can have it for less money and learn a lot of things with it. When you'll be good with combo vs itself and combo vs the format then you can proxy FT and give it a try.


Hands down, TES is the best storm-based combo deck. It has 6 protection spells with the ability to win the game a lot faster than any other storm based deck in the format. Also, its very nice to be able to play a combo deck with a toolbox sideboard since your running burning wish.

[GreenOne]

@GreenOne:
You said you're a FT player right? Maybe you can share your experience with the deck, not really asking anymore which one of the two is better but I wanted to know:

1) What's your average goldfish?
2) Is FT resilient to hate? (Assuming only 1 hate card appears)
3) Can it recover in time after being hit by a Thoughtsize + Hymn?


1) Turn 3.2 with a standard 8 protection list, turn 2.8 with my list (no duress)
2) Yeah, you can build doomsday stack that are immune to chalice @0 or Gaddock/MM quite easily. Counterbalance, however, is a bitch (like for every combo deck).
3) Well, it depends on how much pressure and other disruption is involved. However, I'd say yes.


Hands down, TES is the best storm-based combo deck. It has 6 protection spells with the ability to win the game a lot faster than any other storm based deck in the format. Also, its very nice to be able to play a combo deck with a toolbox sideboard since your running burning wish.

The thing I hated about TES was that it used to give the opponent 7 new cards or give them 3 cards from the graveyard to win, thus giving the opponent more chances to get their hate back/give them new counters. Now that AN is played I guess this problem is partially solved.

[badjuju]

Hey Zappa,

I was faced with the same question not too long ago.

I started with Belcher (which basically takes no skill whatsoever to play) and wanted something with better options. So I then moved to SI (draw 4s were a bit too inconsistent for my tastes), then moved to TES (took a little longer to get the flow, but it'll just click one day and you'll pilot it fine), then started trying FT variants (ANT in particular). I haven't actually taken TES or FT to a tournament, but of the two I am enjoying goldfishing TES a lot more. I've also playtested it against several different decks and performed rather well. The option of having Ad Nauseum is great, but you'll still want to learn other important routes to victory, like IGG looping.

[Happy Gilmore]

My advice to you would be to wait a little while to see what happens to Ad Nauseum and what deck does best on it and invest in that one.
If you want to get started now, I'd search out the cards every deck plays: Ad Nauseum, LED, Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual and so on.

If you're paranoid, you might want to wait until the next bannings to see what gets the axe (if anything).

I agree with this, but keep in mind its very cheep to build most of these decks (relatively speeking).

And there is no way AN is getting an axe, at least not before LED. The card is balanced IMO, and the testing I've done and others have done only confirms this.

[Deep6er]

Why do people assume Ad Nauseam decks are cheap?

Lion's Eye Diamond is basically a staple of those decks and that card's ludicrously expensive.

Chrome Moxen aren't terribly cheap either.

Even though most of the rares are cheap, there's a couple of them.

Infernal Tutor
Ad Nauseam
Burning Wish
Diminishing Returns
Ill-Gotten Gains

Even assuming you get a buck apiece for Returns and Gains, you're still looking at dropping a pretty easy 200 bucks on the deck. Granted, most of that comes from Lion's Eye Diamond, but the point remains that it's definitely mroe expensive than Dragon Stompy. Sure, it's not as expensive as polychromatic decks like Threshold/Landstill, but it's still not a drop in the bucket.

[Bryant Cook]

All the old storm decks are obsolete now that Ad Nauseum has been printed. I would give it a little while and see what the best Ad Naus lists end up looking like and would definately avoid anything that still calls itself by one of the old deck names.

Hateful much Bomholt? ;-p. The new TES lists are incredibly good thanks to Ad Nauseum. You may want to check them out.

[Forbiddian]

TES is relatively cheap.

The terms cheap/expensive are obviously relative. If I bought a car for 200, it'd be cheap. If I bought a meal for 200, it'd be expensive. A tier 1 legacy deck for 200 is cheap. Goblins costs about 200-300 and it's popular because of its cheapness (although you could "cheapify" goblins by running 17 mountains and not splashing a color or anything, it'd be worse than the version with Badlands and Wastelands which is already Tier 2).


If cost vs. performance matters at all (which it does, greatly), then TES is the best deck to play. Hopefully the skill requirements will push new players away from TES (Goblins is also popular because turning a Piledriver sideways isn't hard), but I still see a huge influx of players choosing TES for monetary reasons.

Underground Seas + Polluted Deltas already runs 200 bucks easy. That most all good decks (and certainly all the decks that can compete with TES) cost double or even triple as much. Name another Tier 1/Deck to Beat that's under 200. Ichorid, I guess, but TES looks to be better than Ichorid. If you splash any color, the duals and fetches will run you 120 at least.


Not that I'm against players getting into Legacy by being able to buy Tier 1 for less than 200, I'm just against paying a tournament entry fee to pick my nails or fantasize about Serra Angel decapitating the kid sitting across from me to spare me from this boredom.

The guy with the Green Grass and High Tides parody lyric in his signature said it right on.

[Pulp_Fiction]

In all honesty if you are new to the format and are unfamiliar with the type of decks you will play against and the combo hate cards you will see you should build Belcher. Belcher has all the essential combo cards like Burning Wish, LED, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, etc. and on top of that Belcher is easy to play. If you don't know how to properly play a storm combo deck start off with Belcher and build up. Belcher is all about the opening hand, thats really it because speed is on your side. Decks like TES and FT you have to know the format and every hate card you could potentially see because they will not consistently win on the first turn.

I used to play SI in a tournament setting but I stopped playing it after 3 games in a fucking row I cast a draw4 and drew into 4 artifacts each time! I was so frustrated at that point I never brought it back. However, with SI, out of the 5 tournaments I brought it to I made it to a top 4 split twice, top 8once, and then the deck epically failed out on draw4s twice. SI IMOP is the best deck to have when playing against Thresh and Stifleshit.dec because of the SB you are allowed to run. Things like Tomb of Urami, Tombstalker, Duress, and Oxidize/Naturalize. These cards themselves literally make the blue control match favorable. However, this deck is not consistent. When it works right there isn't a better combo deck in the format, but a faulty draw4 can destroy everything. Goldfish speed is disgusting, the deck kills (and actually kills not makes Goblins) on turn 1 probably 35% of the time and probably 90+% of the time by turn 2 barring a detrimental draw4. This is not taking into consideration Empty the Warrens at all this is just being able to Tendrils the opponent out. I would not recommend playing this deck unless you are a highly skilled combo player because it is VERY difficult to play correctly, the same goes for FT as well. TES is "easiest" of these decks to play correctly, however, by no means is it a simple deck to play. I would greatly emphasize Belcher first and then move onto storm combo after you know the environment.

[Zappa]

Thanks for all the advise everyone has given me. Currently I am still practicing TES, and also currently undergoing a little project of making a blue based affinity deck.

I'm trying to practice TES and trying to play it 1-2 times a day. But, theres many times I open up a hand and I get stumped with "mull or keep" that's the hardest part for me right now. Like what card(s) on a certain opening would be a keeper. I'm not very good with the deck and making decissions yet, coz several games I played I was having problem reaching a lethal storm count. :frown:

Oh well... in time I guess I'll get better with it.
But again thanks so much to everyone that contributed and gave me advise.

[Maveric78f]

Why did nobody mention ANT? It's the combo deck that makes the best results in Europe afaik.


Lands 14
7 blue fetches
1 island
1 scrubland
1 tundra
3 seas
1 swamp

Acceleration 20
4 petal
4 LED
4 DR
4 cabal ritual
4 chrome mox

Big CC 4
2 AN
1 tendrils
1 IGG

Tutors/manipulation 13
4 mystical
4 IT
4 BS
1 sensei's divining top

protection 9
4 chant
4 duress
1 Wipe Away

SB:
3 Angel's Grace
3 slaughter pact
3 extirpate
3 serenity
2 repeal
1 wipe away

[badjuju]

Why did nobody mention ANT? It's the combo deck that makes the best results in Europe afaik.

ANT was not popular when this thread was started.
I'm not sure if I would recommend the deck until after our friend here has played at least TES to get a feel on how to loop IGG and reach lethal storm count. Learning the interactions, especially ones that involve Brainstorms and LED shenanigans becomes very important, and I think TES is the perfect deck to practice all of that.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Most people say that TES is the best combo list out there. The fact of the matter is that it depends on how you play and how good of a pilot you are, not to mention your meta (if we all look back to the catastrophy that was the TES vs. FT thread). Oh, and like others said, your budget.

It's a fact that FT goldfishes the slowest out of all storm lists not mono-blue. However, "slow" is relative. I combo turn 3 often, and unless heavy disruption occurs, turn 4 at the latest. Not really slow, just slower. Often I can control the game well enough that I can comfortably wait to combo on turn 5 or 6 vs. some lists. Doomsday is a Godly card. It's a 5-card tutor for the bargain price of BBB that allows you to combo through pretty much any hate. Disgusting.

Decks I have the upper hand against for sure as a FDDT player:
-Ichorid (srsly, not a prayer games 2 and 3 other than a turn one kill for them; I've tested this extensively)
-TES (barring turn one kills on the play; tested this extensively)
-SI (barring turn one kills on the play; based off of my TES testing because of some playstyle similarities, I may be wrong on this, however I don't think I am.)
-Dragon Stompy (tested extensively)
-Every non-blue list in the format.
-*Almost* every blue list not playing CB.

The reason it's so pricey is because it runs anywhere between 3-5 duals and 8x blue fetches, along with the standard 4x LED and 4x Chants. We don't run Chrome Mox in the standard lists, although Emildn's hybrid Ad Nauseam FDDT list is pretty sexy and balls-to-the-wall. I won with it turn 2 extremely consistantly, it's just not controlling enough for me to switch straight-up. It my meta allowed for it, I'd take it over TES easily (which I play on occasion, but I don't play it a lot since the boys over on that thread don't agree with me on several points).

If you think you will be a long-term storm player, I suggest playing FDDT. It's actually the evolution of IGGY POP. Plus, being able to bluff Thresh is pretty funny (however probably not a very compelling argument to play it).

Pce,

--DC