The Charms?

[Cire]

Well while i was looking at some threads I ran across a couple things.

1) There is a lot of discussion over the viability of the Shards Charms; mainly Jund, Esper and Bant in the order.

2) A lot of Japanese deck lists run Piracy Charm for some reason, and a lot of random BGW deck lists run Funeral Charm

3) Also doing a quick search of this and other sites shows the vision, emerald, and ebony charm are also played. (of course it's probably due to vision being able to cheat out a dreadnought, emerald being instant one mana enchantment hate, and i don't know why ebony?)

4) A quote of TIBA's "Versatility rarely trumps power in actuality, hence why cards with cycling 2 or the word "charm" in them rarely make a big splash."

and another quote by Throst45 on MTGS on why some decks should run Funeral charm over Duress (i guess thought seize didn't come out yet so this might be a moot quote/point)...

"Against solidarity, thresh, and goblins Duress is generally 'as good as' funeral charm.
Against Thresh all you will grab is a cantrip or possibly their 1 or 2 of Pithing needle (which they will probably hide w/ brainstorm if they don't want you to take it).
Solidarity pretty much all of the cards are the same, High Tide and Meditate are really the only ones that you would want to choose over others.
Against goblins... Funeral Charm is definitely better all around."
---------

What this leads me to ask is

1) Are any of the charms worth playing?
2) Which charms do you think are underrated (or overrated lol)?
3) Basically what i am asking is; are there any charms (or other similar cards) out there that are good enough (versatile/powerful enough) to be played over other options? Examples where versatility does in fact trump power?

[Apex]

I feel that Esper Charm is almost playable. It's in U/B/W (good and solid colours), and it kills Counterbalance while being costed at 3cc, which is awesome. If it only did something else instead of "draw 2 cards"/"discard 2 cards", then I can definitely see it being played, at least in some sideboards.

Maybe Bant charm (the W/U/G one) will see some marginal play? At least all of its modes are pretty strong (deal with a Goyf, counter a FoW, or destroy a stax piece).

[Illissius]

I'm still not sure how powerful 3 mana for "draw 2 cards" at instant speed is. Thirst for Knowledge gets you two cards in the better case, and is marginally playable. Fact or Fiction (most of the time) lets you choose either the better two or the worse three out of five for one more mana, and is pretty good.

Anyway, Dromar's Charm is clearly the best. Dromar's Charm is awesome, and everyone who plays it is awesome.

[TheRock]

Anybody who thinks that Duress isn't fantastic against Solidarity just needs to get raped by combo decks a few thousand more times until they figure it out. The worst card in Solidarity's hand is usually FAR WORSE than the 3rd best card in it, and you need to play percentages with a deck that fizzles frequently.

As for being good against Threshold, there are times where having your opponent discard a card only makes their Goyfs and Geese bigger, especially when they're running maindeck Needles or Rings. Again, the worst card in their hand is usually FAR WORSE than the 3rd best card in it.

Where Funeral/Piracy Charm shines is the fact that it can be played as an instant, can kill Confidant, Lackey, or Jailer, or can help to deal two damage. These two charms shouldn't be run just because they are "versatile" - they should be run because they have an important effect in the objective of your deck and can be versatile when you don't need it to serve its primary purpose. Right now, I don't see that being the case in most metagames, but that shouldn't mean that they shouldn't be run if the right deck is created.

I won't say anything about the new Charms because I don't really know them. Sorry.

As for a card who's versatility outshines it's power, Extirpate is the first card that jumps to my mind. It's not too effective as a graveyard removal engine, and it's not too effective against control and combo, but it does work in a few decks because of what its effect can do and the fact that the deck can take advantage of it.

As for a card who's power hasn't been tapped, my first though is Tidehollow Sculler. My thoughts are this and the Charms are only opinions, but I hope that they help.

[FoolofaTook]

If Darigaaz's Charm doesn't see much play it's kind of hard envisioning any 3cc instant that costs 3 different colors getting played.

3 damage to target or instant speed return of any creature in your graveyard to your hand or target creature gets +3/+3. That's a pretty amazing trifecta but you almost never see the card played.

[Illissius]

Any of those 3 effects costs one mana individually, so you're overpaying by two. It's not very impressive.

[Deep6er]

you need to play percentages with a deck that fizzles frequently.

What? Back in the day where Solidarity was a reasonably popular deck choice, it's turn four win consistency was eighty plus percent. Depending on the build, it could be even higher. I'd fizzle with the deck maybe one out of every nine games.

Supposing heavy disruption, it's consistency would drop, but there's no indication that you think that. This is a small point, but a boggling one. Solidarity was probably the most consistent combo deck in the format during it's heyday.

Also, the Charms seem bad. The discard, draw, and destroy Counterbalance one does seem interesting, but I can't see a deck beyond Threshold that can use it effectively. It might be useful in Threshold, I'm not sure, but it needs to be tested first. I've heard conflicting reports about it's efficacy so far, but I'll make my own decisions based on my own data.

[Illissius]

The first deck which came to mind for Esper Charm here was some form of Landstill. It seems too slow for Threshold.

[Deep6er]

Yeah, but it seems so weak for Landstill. You already have Standstill and Fact or Fiction, so competing with those slots seems ineffectual. You're generally going to want it to draw/discard since you're generally safe from Counterbalance (in Threshold type decks since that's where it sees the most play).

[Metaknight]

The first deck i thought of for the Esper charm was fish. it's already in it's colors and does everything that the deck wants to do.

[Media314r8]

Where Funeral/Piracy Charm shines is the fact that it can be played as an instant, can kill Confidant, Lackey, or Jailer, or can help to deal two damage. These two charms shouldn't be run just because they are "versatile" - they should be run because they have an important effect in the objective of your deck and can be versatile when you don't need it to serve its primary purpose.


Gofy battles goyf- after damage, your oppoent's goyf dies to piracy charm. you need to kill an opposing thresh player. Give your goyf +2/-1 and islandwalk and stroll over and hit him for 7 with your 1G vanillaface. It also pitches to force and kills all the above mentioned card advantage engines, oh and it only costs U. I like it, but realize there are stronger cards for UGx thresh. I do like it in UG thresh, however. It can also be awkard vs TES when they play LED with one card (infernal) in hand. "Piracy in response to you playing LED?" -good times.

[Nihil Credo]

The first deck i thought of for the Esper charm was fish. it's already in it's colors and does everything that the deck wants to do.Suck more?


(Ok, I don't even really think that. But I couldn't ignore the setup.)


Some real content: I'd like to draw attention to the current UGW Thresh builds, which normally run 2-3 copies of both Predict and Oblivion Ring. That, to me, suggests that if you wanted to run Esper Charm in a Thresh deck you wouldn't find it particularly stressful for your mana curve.

It also, however, suggests me the following: what sort of deck will want Esper Charm over Oblivion Ring? The Charm is better at dealing with Counterbalance (instant speed and Stifle- and Grip-proof), but in my opinion Legacy isn't a narrow enough format that this is even comparable to being able to hit a creature or an artifact.

Heck, scratch the previous paragraph: what kind of deck will want Esper Charm over Vindicate? The advantages become a lot tighter here: all that Charm has got is pitching to Force and two mediocre abilities. Maybe it can be run after 4 Vindicates - but if so, we're talking about a deck with a high enough curve that it probably doesn't worry all that much about Counterbalance in the first place.

[idraleo]

We all are probably missing how good is Jund Charm, it deals well against goblin, Loam, Threshold and Dredge: especially against Dredge it is a real powerhouse, because it first sweeps opponent's Bridges, than sweeps is horde at istant speed. ProbabLy it will see some play, i thought it could be maindecked in some Loam build and/or in some Rock sideboard.

[Anusien]

I think the best use of the Charms is the same reason that decks like Threshold run Engineered Explosives; most of the time you want to kill a guy but occasionally you can get their Jitte or something. I'm big on Treva's Charm at the moment since it kills Counterbalances and such.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think Jund Charm has potential in Truffle Shuffle. I also like Dromar's Charm, although it was a lot better in a Goblin-heavy meta. The only archetype that really needs the versatility is control, though, so that kind of limits how much Charm usage you'll ever see, I think.

[conboy31]

I wish the Jund Charm could jettison green and the +2 counters choice. RB for an instant crypt or clasm would be playable.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wish Dromar's Charm could jettison white and black and the -2/-2 and 5 life abilities and just be a 1 mana counterspell.

Also, that Thirst for Knowledge could jettison 2 mana and the discard option and just draw three cards.

It's wrong to want.

[Forbiddian]

I have no idea why people still play Ebony Charm.

I used to play it a long, long time ago (in a metagame far far away) playing Suicide Black when ATS, Pandeburst, Oath of Druids, and Worship (the card) were all popular. Oh, and before Coffin Purge was printed.

Now there are strictly better cards and Worship is a joke (also singe fetchlands got printed, nobody plays mono anymore, so you could run disenchant or grip to deal with the enchantment problem that black had).


As for versatility ever beating power? JTs (in poker). Or Force of Will. Morphling. Nevinyrral's Disk. Force Spike vs. Disrupt. It depends on what you're looking for, but that's why people run Back to Basics over Choke.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I have no idea why people still play Ebony Charm.What are you talking about? Ebony charm has never hit any top eight [source (http://www.deckcheck.net/qsearch.php?query=ebony+charm)] and hasn't been discussed on The Source since March of last year. [source (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=114099&highlight=ebony#post114099)]

[Aggro_zombies]

Also, that Thirst for Knowledge could jettison 2 mana and the discard option and just draw three cards.
Didn't they print that already?

Also, the three color charms are only marginally playable in this format. There are other options in those colors that are just plain better most of the time.

[Jak]

Jund is the only one that I could se even being played. The rest are pretty bad. Maybe a GBR deck with Rolling Earthquakes and Jund with Thoughtseizes, Tarmogoyfs, Stalkers, Tops, and some targeted removal could be okay.

[Aggro_zombies]

Jund is the only one that I could se even being played. The rest are pretty bad. Maybe a GBR deck with Rolling Earthquakes and Jund with Thoughtseizes, Tarmogoyfs, Stalkers, Tops, and some targeted removal could be okay.
Firespout seems so much better than Jund Charm, unless you're just looking for versatility. And in that shell, I'm not sure versatility is what you need - power seems more important, and the difference between two and three damage can be quite important (Kills Mongeese, kills a lot of creatures out of the X Stompy decks, assuming they're not equipped).

[TheRock]

What? Back in the day where Solidarity was a reasonably popular deck choice, it's turn four win consistency was eighty plus percent. Depending on the build, it could be even higher. I'd fizzle with the deck maybe one out of every nine games.

Supposing heavy disruption, it's consistency would drop, but there's no indication that you think that. This is a small point, but a boggling one. Solidarity was probably the most consistent combo deck in the format during it's heyday.

Also, the Charms seem bad. The discard, draw, and destroy Counterbalance one does seem interesting, but I can't see a deck beyond Threshold that can use it effectively. It might be useful in Threshold, I'm not sure, but it needs to be tested first. I've heard conflicting reports about it's efficacy so far, but I'll make my own decisions based on my own data.

Granted, I fizzle with that deck about 1 out of every 7 times with the builds I ran, so I know that you aren't bluffing. However, Spring Tide fizzled for me one out of every 12 or so on turn four on the play and probably about the same for me on the draw. Heck, some combo decks rarely ever "fizzle" because they either do their thing and win or are just never able to get off the ground in the first place. It was NEVER the most consistent combo, especially after being Duressed even once (which in the early years was very hard to work around), it was just the most successful at its time.

Anybody will take a chance to win 1 out of 10 if they have no other option to win at all. To be completely honest, this logic is probably one of the reasons that the Japanese like these Charms - they are capable of randomly winning games at the cost of not being very powerful or respected as being "good", which is a problem we seriously have in other metagames.

Yes, I forgot about the islandwalk, which is definitely good with the way this format stands right now. :laugh:

[Deep6er]

I'll give you that. Spring Tide was in fact just as consistent, if not more (supposing no disruption) than Solidarity. I had forgotten about that.

However, Spring Tide was more fragile than Solidarity at the cost of being a turn faster. Spring Tide didn't really want to make it to turn four. It was a definite turn three deck, where it's consistency was still pretty decent.

However, neither deck did well facing disruption. Solidarity had the edge because it had more countermagic. The frailties with Cloud of Fairies also hindered Spring Tide, making it capable of being disrupted from other sources.

Anyway, that's probably enough about Solidarity. Although, it does kind of make me want to test the charm. I wish it was draw two, destroy Counterbalance, or destroy target nonblack creature. That would make me pretty happy.

[freakish777]

<stuff about decks with High Tide>


His point was, the quote from the original post "Funeral Charm is basically just as good as Duress against Thresh/Goblins/Solidarity" is totally wrong.

I'm sure you'll agree that playing Solidarity you'd laugh on the inside when your opponent Funeral Charmed you on turn one if you knew they were running that instead of Duress/Thoughtseize because they thought it was "just as good" against Solidarity.


I wish it was draw two, destroy Counterbalance, or destroy target nonblack creature. That would make me pretty happy.

That would be rediculous. I can't imagine not playing it as a two of in every deck that could support the colors.

In my opinion, the instant speed draw 2 cards part of the charm is the most revelant, as there hasn't been a card printed yet that does explicitly that.

[Forbiddian]

What are you talking about? Ebony charm has never hit any top eight [source (http://www.deckcheck.net/qsearch.php?query=ebony+charm)] and hasn't been discussed on The Source since March of last year. [source (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=114099&highlight=ebony#post114099)]

Sorry, was quoting from OP and taking his word for it. Ignore my comment if the OP is wrong.


Also doing a quick search of this and other sites shows the vision, emerald, and ebony charm are also played.

[Media314r8]

In my opinion, the instant speed draw 2 cards part of the charm is the most revelant, as there hasn't been a card printed yet that does explicitly that.

Lies. See Gush.

[freakish777]

Lies. See Gush.


I meant at 3 mana specifically. The closest we have legal in this format is Thirst for Knowledge, which requires you play artifacts, now we have an instant +1 CA card drawing spell at 3 mana that instead requires you to play :w::u::b:

[Sims]

The charm that interests me the most is Jund Charm. I enjoy playing that particular color combination, and I think it's abilities are probably some of the most relevant abilities on a charm in a long time. Granted, 3 mana is a bit slow to remove Ichorids graveyard from the game without some significant disruption from perhaps sideboard Crypts, but if you can survive to hit that the Charm will likely blindside them. I'll gladly pay 1 more for a pyroclasm that is a tad harder to CB for some decks that can come during combat so your opponent has a harder time bating it out and then dropping a larger horde (or in response to a DR'd Flamekin or something). The green part is the most obvious, allowing your goyfs to win ground stalemates or even allowing a smaller creature to live through pyroclasms or fight off an opposing Goyf.

I like it a lot.

[Captain Hammer]

Predict draws you 2 cards at instant speed for less mana.

The instant speed discard 2 is a hell of a lot rarer, and a lot more relevent imo.