PDA

View Full Version : [Deck] Battle of Wits



Hunding Gjornersen
10-13-2008, 06:56 AM
Introduction

Battle of Wits has been a pet deck of mine since it was first released in Odyssey. While some people have managed to top 8 (and sometimes even win) in Standard and Extended with various builds, the deck just will never be tier I. I shouldn’t say “never”; if Wizards prints a whole bunch of cards that are more powerful than everything in existence now but well balanced with each other, then Battle of Wits might have legitimacy. As it stands, however, it is simply a fun deck to play (if you’re into that sort of thing). It’s really a crowd pleaser even if it has nothing else going for it. Again, I want to stress that I’m not saying this deck is a great choice to bring to a tournament, but it is a fun one.

Motivation for and Background on this Build

Not that it really matters, but I developed this deck independent of these threads (but here they are for reference):

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9997
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8448
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4926
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4517

It’s comforting to know that I came to some of the same conclusions as The Source community did. The largest mind-block to get over, for me, was switching from a control shell to a combo one. Why do this? Well, in any format (especially the eternal formats) control has to run an incredibly tight list of only the best of the best control cards and most dense (i.e. takes the least amount of cards) win condition. As anyone who’s designed a Battle of Wits control deck will tell you, the good cards run out fast. Pretty soon one’s running Signets or Talismans or worse. Turn two Signet versus turn two Piledriver or Tarmogoyf? Ouch. And while you can run 4 Force of Wills, you rarely ever get to use them on the early turns. Control really likes to have that ~40% chance of just stuffing their opponent’s turn 1 bomb with a Force.
Another reason not to play a control shell is that you almost invariably end up with Night’s Whisper and Accumulated Knowledge. Don’t get me wrong, both of these are good solid ways to generate card advantage. Neither is particularly good in a >200 card control deck, though. Night’s Whisper is a sorcery, which makes casting it prohibitive. The first Accumulated Knowledge sucks. It’s only saving grace (and this is important) is that you’ll likely be able to Intuition for the other three when the time is right. Such a large deck makes this play very rare.
Again, I could end up eating my words here as two good board sweepers (Firespout and Damnation) have been printed since the last time I sleeved up a control shell Battle of Wits deck. I’ll admit to being a little bit of a Johnny so my view of combo over control might not be the most unbiased. Anyone out there who thinks control is the way to go, please explain why. Is it possible to make a combo/control hybrid build?

I won’t post the whole series of decks that led up to the current build; that would just be obnoxious. The earliest version of combo Battle of Wits I made was in the summer of ’07. I realized that, while a 5cmc enchantment has limited options in terms of tutors (prompting some to even consider Diabolic Tutor, bleh!), there are a crap load of tutors that can grab a 4cmc creature: Academy Rector. The first list was full of mana elves, Gaea’s Cradle, Sakura-tribe Elder, Wall of Roots, Survival of the Fittest, and even Dimir Housegaurd & Clutch of the Undercity. Here’s what I learned about those cards from playtesting:

-Mana Elves die to burn, even Mogg Fanatic. It sucks when your opponent can shut down your tempo with Lightning Bolt, Ghastly Demise, and Swords to Plowshares.

-Survival of the Fittest costs 1GG and a creature card to tutor for Rector. You need to be playing mana elves to pay for that, but simultaneously holding on to them so you can discard one.

-For a two mana investment you really need to get a huge mana boost. Even though they hold the line for a little while, Sakura-tribe Elder and Wall of Roots are just too slow.

-As I’m sure many of you could have told me already, Housegaurd and Clutch suck.

Three mana is a lot. It’s way more than two. For a tutor to cost three it has to directly find Battle of Wits and put it into your hand. Even then, in practice, three is just too expensive. Intuition gets to be the exception since it’s an instant, only requires one blue mana, and finds whatever you want. Tutors that put things on top of your deck obviously come with card-disadvantage built in. It’s a little more subtle then just that, though. If I play something like Lim-Dul’s Vault to find Battle of Wits or Academy Rector (assuming it doesn’t cost too much life to do so), my next turn is sealed. No way am I topdecking that extra mana source or disruption piece needed to actually make use of the card I just tutored for. Not that all topdeck tutors are bad, they just need to provide another incentive to play them. Costing one is a pretty good incentive.

Anyway, I’ve rambled on for long enough. Here’s my most recent list:

Battle of Wits as of 10/02/08

4 Battle of Wits
4 Empty the Warrens
1 Form of the Dragon

1 Greater Gargadon

4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Opt
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Manamorphos
4 Street Wraith
4 Plunge into Darkness

3 Academy Rector
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition
4 Eladamri’s Call
4 Living Wish
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Sylvan Tutor
3 Infernal Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Fire//Ice
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Pyroclasm

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pentad Prism
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 High Market
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
4 Land Grant
23 Basic Lands

Sideboard (15)
1 Shriekmaw
1 Greater Gargadon
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Rector
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Whispmare
1 Psychatog
1 Gloomdrifter
1 Diamond Valley
7 Other Cards

Total: 237 Cards

Remark

I like to think of this deck as Belcher’s retarded giant half-brother, although comparing it to Golden Grahams might be more reasonable. Looking at the deck in this light makes many of the card choices make more sense and sets a clear direction for improvement. For example, had Shards of Alara presented the Legacy community with a solid counterspell effect and a solid duress effect, this deck would want to snatch up the duress effect first.
Why 237 cards? Seven for your opening hand and then 30 cards of play-room to find Battle of Wits. This number should always be minimized. I think the deck could maybe handle a cut of another 10 cards.

Some Card Explanations

Empty the Warrens
Plan B. With all the rituals and cantrips in this deck it’s not uncommon to be splooging out 10-12 goblin tokens through Empty. It’s similar to Battle of Wits in that, if you draw it in your opening hand, you can potentially just win the game very quickly. Good as it is I wouldn’t want to Mystical or Personal Tutor for it as it looses lots of power if your next turn’s draw is definitely not a ritual or cantrip.

Form of the Dragon
Before I added this, I found myself too often with Rector in play and a way to sac it, but staring down lethal combat damage if I say “go.” Form is plan C for when there are Piledrivers or Tarmogoyfs or Negators on the other side of the board who want a piece. Hard-casting it is not out of the question, although 4RRR is a real pain.

Greater Gargadon
It makes good sense to run a cheap creature which can eat Rector as a tutor target. Gargadon is strictly superior to Carrion Feeder because 1) it can’t be countered by conventional countermagic, 2) if you play it before Rector it can’t be bolted or plowed, and 3) it could come down as a big piece of fat. Is Shreikmaw better? It’s more expensive and can’t be played before Rector, but it’s a much better topdeck.

Hymn to Torach
Not really a typical combo card, but this isn’t exactly a typical combo deck. Hymn was in my very first build and got cut almost immediately for costing BB. I added it back in on impulse before my last tournament//bout of testing and it was beautiful. At worst it buys you time and card advantage and at best it takes down countermagic and enchantment removal.

Plunge into Darkness, Fire//Ice, Innocent Blood, Pyroclasm, Cabal Therapy, High Market
If you thought Squire was bad just wait until you play it for 3W. Academy Rector sucks so much if you can’t sacrifice or destroy it right away. It’s not even really a Moat since your opponent just has to get overwhelming force on the board to trump it. But, in a 237 card deck, you can’t afford to run more conditional cards then are absolutely necessary. That’s why the sac outlets all have to do something on their own. I recently added Plunge, Pyroclasm, and High Market (nearly doubling the number of sac outlets) so I’m not sure if it’s too much or still not enough.

The Land Base
The content and average colored mana cost of the cards in this deck changes so often and drastically that it’s too much work to properly rebalance the land base every time. Right now, it includes all the Fetch- and Dual-lands I own and it could certainly use more. Land Grant is in there as a budget Fetch-land and possible (although unlikely) storm fodder for Empty. Please restrict comments on the land base to how to build the ideal one. Note that 20 Fetchlands + 40 Dual-lands + 4 City + 4 Gemstone +1 Glimmervoid + 4 High Market + 4 Horizon Canopy = 77 lands, the current total.

Omitted Card Explanations

Idyllic Tutor, Grim Tutor, Brainspoil, Imperial Recruiter
As I said above, three mana is too much to be spending on a tutor. These cards look so good on paper, but in practice I just want them to be something more affordable.

Enduring Ideal
This card is frequently in and out of the build. Most of the time, it just sits in my hand costing 7. I know, [2 cmc tutor] + Battle of Wits = 7 mana. That’s why I give Ideal so many chances to be good. Not having the option of paying 2 and then 5 is a pretty big deal. Add to that incompatibility with LED and the evidence against Ideal is strong. Most of the mana acceleration in this deck adds a net of 1 to your pool. It’s too hard to get to 5WW that way. I’d be willing to give it another chance, though.

Seething Song
“No wonder you have trouble getting 5WW, you’re not running Seething Song.” Song adds a net of two mana, which is huge. Unfortunately, it costs 3 so it’ll likely have to eat some of your blue (or black or white) mana to get played. This means it needs a mana fixer or big colored mana producer (multiple Petals, LED, Pentad Prism) to actually be useful. Even when I ran 3 Empty, 3 Ideal, and 4 Burning Wish, it was rare that Seething Song was good.

Lotus Bloom, Birds of Paradise
Although these cards obviously function differently, my reasons for not playing them are similar. They’re both best if played on turn one and get worse each turn after that. Turn 1 birds means a fun turn 2. Turn 1 Bloom means I win on turn 4. The problem is that this deck is 237 freaking cards deep. The odds of getting either of these cards in your opening hand suck and can’t be counted on.

Urza’s Bauble, Mishra’s Bauble
More cards that I really wish were good. These guys play nice with all the topdeck tutors and virtually make the deck smaller. Unfortunately, they are awful topdecks themselves and get in the way of the Moxes. Somebody convince me that they’re worth while, please.

Xantid Swarm, Orim’s Chant, Abeyance
These cards get you around countermagic, but you still have to say “go” after resolving Battle or Empty. You get no protection against Grip, Naturalize, or bounce. Xantid swarm does keep them out of your business while you dig and play accelerants/disruption.

Sensei’s Divining Top, Impulse
Two mana for a cantrip doesn’t do it for me. There are definitely times when I wish I had a Top in play, but more often I just wish it wasn’t eating all my mana. Impulse is basically replaced by Plunge into Darkness which has a built-in sac outlet.

Potential Maindeck

Summoner’s Pact
This would just be ESG 5-8. Often, when you’re blowing your load with rituals and tutors to find and play Battle, the situation is “I win if they don’t answer Battle, but I’m out of gas if they do.” Pact has bad synergy with Empty, though, and green mana is not exactly the most useful thing around.

Pact of Negation
Forces through Battle, protects it from Naturalize, etc. Laughs at you when they Krosan Grip your Battle, when they have multiple answers, when you play Empty, or whenever you’re not comboing out. Still, it does everything I want a disruption piece to do (except for the “you lose the game” part).

Trinket Mage
Pentad Prims is really good at two-mana this turn for two bonus mana next turn. Trinket Mage finding LED would be Pentad Prism’s big brother. Has the same problem as Seething Song in that it costs a lot of mana for a mana accelerator. On the other hand, I’ve never seen Seething Song fetch a utility artifact or block Tarmogoyf.

Orcish Lumberjack
If I owned more fetch-lands and dual-lands this might be better. Things kind of have to go just right, in terms of what lands you play, for this to be good. But man is it good when this guy is Mr. Mana Vault.

Get a Life
While switching life totals with my teammate or forcing opponents to do so is probably the most broken effect in Legacy, if I actually got a life I’d have to stop working on this deck. And that wouldn’t be any fun.

Playing the Deck

Unfortunately, I don’t have enough time to thoroughly test this deck against the metagame so there will be no detailed match-up analysis in this section. The thing to remember about this deck is that your opening hand shapes how you play. Dark Ritual --> Duress, Hymn isn’t only good for Sui. You can’t really sit back and play control, but often you can be more or less aggressive with the disruption, depending on how much of it you draw.
This deck has ye-olde consistency issues. I think that’s just a fact of life when playing 200+ cards. Shuffle this deck as much as you can stand to between games/rounds. Then shuffle it a little bit more. Proper randomization really helps the consistency. This is true of any deck, of course, but it’s a lot more pronounced in this one.
One last piece of advice: don’t take yourself or this deck too seriously. That just sets you up for frustration. Come on, it’s Battle of Wits for crying out loud!

Xenos
10-13-2008, 08:28 AM
lol, this deck is awsome.



What about Gamble? A riskier version of Enlightened Tutor/Worldly Tutor, but both just end up losing a card in total for a search if u think about it. Maybe Include 1 Gamble'able flashback card or something in the deck in case there's no cards in your hand. I don't know, might be worth testing if nothing else.

Dark Confidant looks like it might be good in here... have you tried it?

Willoe
10-13-2008, 09:51 AM
Do you have an average card in library count when you win the game with Battle of Wits for some goldfish testing? If so, then cut the deck down to that size and then add a couple more cards to increase consistency. Like you say yourself, I can see 5-10 cards being cut.

Deckbuilding comment:
I don't like the manaboost. All the things that you've said about the Control approach are true, but really, you should be able to find enough control elements, and replace the mana sources with lands. Enough lands so that you can land a land (ooh, sense of humor) every turn, and then be able to play out BoW turn 5 and win turn 6. Then your deck is pretty much midgame combo-control. You win early, before Threshold finds enough Tarmogoyfs to slay you.

Card choice comments:

Chromatic Star > Chromatic Sphere. It draws you cards off a Pernicious Deed, a Gargadon sacrifice, an Engineered Explosives and so on. In fact, it's a hell lot better. Both effects can be stifled, the only disadvantage of Star instead of Sphere is if there's a Leyline in play. But really, bringing in Leyline against this deck only helps against Rector. So I guess noone does that.

A lot of cards > Infernal Tutor. It has really no home in this deck. I'd use Rhystic Tutor or Brainspoil/other Transmute card. Brainspoil is rather versatile, after all. It kills your Rector, kills a Dreadnought, a Tarmogoyf, a lot. But it does cost five, and that's a lot.

Mind that the Mox Diamond rule applies to your deck as well. You need to play 26 lands*237/60=around 100 lands to drop it every game. You don't.

The problem with your mana boosting spells are that they are crappy topdecks and off-color. I do like the ones that can mana fix you, you should play them. Cards like Mox Diamond (add around fifteen lands), Lotus Petal, Manamorphose, Chromatic Star/Sphere, Terrarion, rainbow lands seem wonderful in this deck.

I don't really know how to revise your manabase, I'm just thinking that you should be able to protect yourself until turn 5, and on turn 5 (or earlier, with Lotus Petal), play, protect, win.

Land comment: I like Quicksand more than High Market. You can just attack with Rector, and Quicksand him. Also, I think of Quicksand > High Market because it kills piledrivers. Of course, if it's the priority issure that you're worried about, then it's acceptable. You don't want your Rector STP'ed in response to the Quicksand activation.

Oh, and Land Grant isn't good in this deck. Empty the Warrens isn't good either if you take out the mana sources. Then replace it with Tarmogoyf if you want a solid wall. Or Tombstalker, if you want a serious beef. I'm just concerned about the manabase, then. I think you're better off with Tarmogoyf.

Sideboard comment:

You could have more versatile silver bullets. Harmonic Sliver takes Wispmare's and Ingot Chewer's slots, so that you save 1, at the cost of a higher mana investment.

Shriekmaw count should be upped to 4. It's a wonderful alt-win. Also, Eternal Witness might have a place in the sideboard. Same goes for Etched Oracle.

Psychatog, what do you want it to do? I don't understand.

Graveyard hate is also important. I can see you getting kicked by aggro-loam, Ichorid and so on. Yixlid Jailer, Heap Doll and/or Faerie Macabre might be possible candidates for Wish Targets.

Gloomdrifter? Eh? Caldera Hellion is better. It isn't conditional, and it deals more damage to each creature. It also kills Bridge tokens as well as removing the bridges. That helps in certain situations. The cost at 1 more mana can be a problem, though. As well as the red mana symbols.

I see that some of my suggestions are against your explanations (Brainspoil, for example), but creature removal in Legacy is almost never dead.

---

I really wish to see this deck top8'ing in a 33+ person tournament, by the way. Make my wish come true one day :smile:

TheLion
10-13-2008, 11:02 AM
Nice deck idea and suggestions.
But I can't believe 3cmc tutors are too bad, especially not with all your acceleration.
Imperial Recruiter sees play in one of the DtB and in Aluren and Grim Tutor might be the best allround tutor available in Legacy and sees play in Storm Combo decks.

And I think I'd play Firespout over Pyroclasm.

Go on! Rogue decks ftw!

Willoe
10-13-2008, 02:16 PM
I don't think the deck's rogue when the opponent looks at the size of the pile :eyebrow:

But Grim Tutor isn't that great, really. I think there's better alternatives, and Idyllic Tutor does the same for you at 1 dollar and a color-wise easier casting cost.

(Oh, and that's two awesome smileys you mods created there, thank you :eyebrow: :really: )

Hunding Gjornersen
10-13-2008, 07:50 PM
Gamble
Like so many other potentially good cards, Gamble is just no good off the topdeck. Best if played on turn 1 (i.e. with a full hand) so that counts against it here.

Dark Confidant
I don't really understand the point of Dark Confidant in here. The deck plays a handfull of mass removal, minimal sources of damage to back up a 2/1, and a smattering of expensive cards.

Willoe: If I'm reading your comments right then you think it should look something like (not to put words into your mouth, please correct me if I'm wrong):

4 Battle of Wits
1 Form of the Dragon

1 Greater Gargadon

4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Ponder
4 Serum Visions
4 Opt
4 Chromatic Star
4 Manamorphos
4 Street Wraith
4 Plunge into Darkness

3 Academy Rector
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition
4 Eladamri’s Call
4 Living Wish
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Sylvan Tutor
4 Idyllic Tutor
4 Brainspoil

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
4 Fire//Ice
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Torach
4 Pyroclasm
4 Firespout
4 Gerard's Verdict

4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pentad Prism
4 Dark Ritual

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 High Market
4 Quicksand
4 Horizon Canopy
2 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
4 Land Grant
34 Basic Lands

Sideboard (9/15)
1 Shriekmaw
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Rector
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Caldera Helion
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Eternal Witness

This is an interesting variation. Does the conversion of rituals to tutors, lands, and disruption make sense? Throwing in Tarmogoyf and/or Tombstalker could lead to hands with bad synergy, but could also lead to "I'm playing 237-card Rock" hands. This sort of build would make Shriekmaw much more reasonable as an alt-win. I'm concerned about its ability to survive into the 5th or 6th turn, though. It seems like I need to draw just right in order to live that long.

Infernal Tutor
This card keeps getting cut from and redrafted to the list. When all the rituals are present, emptying your hand (and not being totally exposed to countermagic) is likely. There are times when things like Eledamri's Call or Intuition will sit in hand and mock Infernal Tutor, though. I'm not that broken up about it leaving.

I don't think that adding 15 more lands is the best thing. This deck can get mana-flooded like crazy. The idea behind playing all those cantrips is to be able to play fewer lands and get away with it (even with Mox Diamond). I'm also worried that cutting all the rituals will make the deck play less combo-tastically (which may or may not be a good thing). I'll think more about cutting 2 or 3 acceleration pieces for land and tutors.

"Add Tarmogoyf." Great, just when I thought this deck couldn't get any more expensive...

Mordenkaynen
10-14-2008, 08:19 AM
What about deed and glittering wish?

FoolofaTook
10-14-2008, 10:42 AM
Does 237 cards in sleeves even stand up straight? I'm picturing draws all the time from the deck getting knocked over, not to mention having to shuffle 200+ cards every time you tutor.

I love the deck idea and how it's constructed I just don't see how you'd ever be able to actually play it without a card shuffling machine and those don't work at 200+ cards. Maybe get one of the auto-shuffling Blackjack shoes?

Hunding Gjornersen
10-14-2008, 07:47 PM
Maybe another incarnation of this deck would do well to run Deed, but in this one it just seems awkward. When Deed kills Rector, though, it probably clears the whole board, too. Something to think about but it just seems too random for a deck that doesn't try to control the board very much.

Glittering Wish costs a whopping 5 and forces you to play fewer copies of Battle of Wits in the main deck. Any of the 3cmc tutors would be far better.

clavio
10-14-2008, 07:53 PM
Maybe another incarnation of this deck would do well to run Deed, but in this one it just seems awkward. When Deed kills Rector, though, it probably clears the whole board, too. Something to think about but it just seems too random for a deck that doesn't try to control the board very much.

Glittering Wish costs a whopping 5 and forces you to play fewer copies of Battle of Wits in the main deck. Any of the 3cmc tutors would be far better.

Glittering wish chief, not golden wish.

Hunding Gjornersen
10-15-2008, 06:48 AM
Ah, touche. In that case I'm more confused. What exactly is the plan for Glittering Wish? What makes it better than, say, Burning Wish?

Mr.C
10-16-2008, 12:07 AM
What about Sterling Grove? Isn't it a good tutor?

Hunding Gjornersen
10-17-2008, 07:03 AM
Sterling Grove costs 1WG to put Battle of Wits (which you'll need UU to cast) on top of your library. Idyllic & Grim Tutors and Brainspoil are in the queue long before Sterling Grove.

Based on responses and testing, I'm making the following changes:

-4 Cabal Ritual
-4 Desperate Ritual
-3 Infernal Tutor

+3 Ancient Tomb
+1 City of Traitors
+4 Quicksand
+3 Idyllic Tutor

I don't agree that Rituals and Spirit Guides don't belong in this deck, however Cabal and Desperate are clearly a notch below the others. In the cases where I liked having Cabal or Desperate (usually casting Rector), Ancient Tomb would do just fine. There are 8 more lands in the deck now, which should help me to hit land drops more frequently. Empty has been really great up til now and I plan to keep it on board unless the loss of two Rituals hurts it too much.

Skeggi
10-17-2008, 07:27 AM
This might be the coolest deck ever. Does it really work? Tell me about your match-ups please?

Also: have you ever been deck-checked?

rufus
10-17-2008, 10:54 AM
I see you've got Chromatic Star in the deck, I wonder if there's potential for a Page-Through approach with lots of eggs and Etherium Sculptor/Cloud Key/Helm of Awakening.

There might also be something with ramping elves into Survival/Natural Order/Tooth and Nail/Eladimari's Call/Chord of Calling

Have you considered Diminishing Returns?

Jaynel
10-17-2008, 12:34 PM
Have you considered Diminishing Returns?

I'm not so sure. You want to be pretty careful about how many cards are left in your library. If you dip under 200, that's very bad news. I'd stick with tutors and tutors for tutors (Mystical -> Idyllic, Merchant Scroll -> Mystical -> Idyllic, etc).

Hunding Gjornersen
10-17-2008, 01:58 PM
Skeggi: It really works in that it can steal wins from legitimate decks sometimes. The consistancy issues are a real hinderance in general. The matchups are complicated. The best is actually various turn 3-4 combo since I can race that if they're not too heavy on disruption. Thresh is a nightmare (which doesn't make this deck unplayable; being >200 cards does that :wink: ) since they play lots of countermagic, sometimes Swords to Plowshares, and often bring in Krosan Grips from the board. Wasteland is tough times, too, but sometimes you can just ignore it.

I haven't had the chance to play this in too many tournaments because of school (damn school getting in the way of important things) so I don't exactly have a match-up analysis.

Not with this particular deck, but I was deck-checked with Battle of Wits at an extended tournament one time. The judges were not happy about having to check the deck or re-randomize it after.

rufus: Overdoing cantrips in BOW is dangerous. I've been down that road before and it just leads to an impressive amount of wanking culminating in a great big fizzle.

I've tried Elves; they die to burn then I stall. Survival is a huge resource investment as a pure tutor and Tooth & Nail costs more than Enduring Ideal, which is just better.

I hadn't considered Diminishing Returns, but Jaynel has already explained why. Speaking of which...

Jaynel: I'm uneasy about the Mystical --> Idyllic plan because of the card disadvantage and sloth involved. Tutoring for tutors is rarely a good plan in Vintage where the second tutor grabs a huge bomb so I don't think it's worthwhile in Legacy to find BOW.

General note on Empty the Warrens:

I feel that this card is an important part of the deck. It's not just an alternate win condition, it's an alternate win that has nothing in common with the primary win. That is, enchantment, graveyard, and blue permanent hate (all of which hit the BOW//Rector-->Bow plan) don't touch Empty. However, if it turns out that tons of Rituals aren't any good in this deck, Empty would probably have to leave, too.

rufus
10-17-2008, 03:52 PM
The potentially nice thing about Diminishing Returns is that it can recycle your graveyard as well as filling your hand. In a deck with 237 cards, you'd have to have 19 cards RFG or in play to go below 200 if you cast it once.

Vacrix
10-17-2008, 03:58 PM
cards to consider:
brainspoil (i think you can cycle it to look for BoW)
death wish (if you put one in your board)
white wish (can't remember the name but you can wish for 1 in your board)



another interesting way to go, would be to somehow dump your entire library into your grave, then fetch out battle of wits and then morality shift to win off of mana from songs of the damned.


also if you are looking for alternative ways to win why not fit life combo into here considering all the tutor effects you have.