View Full Version : What do you feel are the most underused/underplayed cards and Combos in Legacy?
Lurker101
10-13-2008, 01:30 PM
What do you think should see more play?
I'll start with:
Djinn Illuminatus
Scouting Trek + Clear the Land (Filter out your lands and get a mana boost. I have a deck revolving around this that I'll post after more testing)
Terravore
Parallel Thoughts + Diminishing Returns (draw your dream hand)
Sacred Ground
UrzaTron
Diabolic Visions (seriously a great card and fun to play)
Thrumming Stone
Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity
Sanguine Voyeur
10-13-2008, 02:12 PM
Djinn IlluminatusSeven mana that doesn't win you the game.
Scouting Trek + Clear the LandTwo cards and five mana for very little effect.
TerravoreSees play in Aggro Loam, where it can truly be abused.
Parallel Thoughts + Diminishing Returns (draw your dream hand)Five extra mana so the seven cards you draw are a little better. Combo decks are the only ones that can really abuse a draw seven and they don't need Parallel Thoughts.
Sacred GroundLimited main deck material, worse then Crucible side board material.
UrzaTronAlthough Waste Land isn't as prominent as it was before, there isn't that great a reward for such a risky mana base.
Diabolic VisionsBlue has better card draw and Lim-Dûl's Vault is a better tutor.
Thrumming StoneFive mana for a little effect.
Willoe
10-13-2008, 02:22 PM
I agree on each of these thoughts. There are much better alternatives in Legacy, and even some of those never sees play. They are the truly underrated cards. Your suggested cards are just bad, sorry to say it. But like in your deck thread, Djinn Illuminatus is just too awesome to pass by, too bad it costs seven. At four mana, it would've been combo material.
Forbiddian
10-13-2008, 03:29 PM
Yeah, [in reference to the Djinn] I think it should have cost 5. At four it'd be pretty OP.
Brainstorm 5x in a row, replicate your counters to win all the counter wars (late game), etc. But for 7 mana you just can't afford to play something that doesn't win the game outright.
Diabolic Visions is cool, but Impulse is probably better. It's much easier to cast even in a UB deck, it can be used endstep, and it gets rid of the bad cards for the price of only seeing four instead of five cards.
mercenarybdu
10-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Gifts Ungiven. I like that card, pitty it could only fit into a small number of decks in this format when there are so many ways to regrowth those cards.
Lurker101
10-13-2008, 07:10 PM
I agree on each of these thoughts. There are much better alternatives in Legacy, and even some of those never sees play. They are the truly underrated cards. Your suggested cards are just bad, sorry to say it. But like in your deck thread, Djinn Illuminatus is just too awesome to pass by, too bad it costs seven. At four mana, it would've been combo material.
What are some truly underrated cards?
Nomads en-Kor + Cephalid Illusionist
rockout
10-13-2008, 08:49 PM
Bitterblossom - life for creatures is just as good as life for cards? no, but it's still amazing.
Demigod of Revenge - "demigod? counter? trigger? 15?"
Willoe
10-13-2008, 08:53 PM
What are some truly underrated cards?
Enlightened Tutor and Powder Keg IMO. Among some others.
thefreakaccident
10-13-2008, 08:58 PM
Bitterblossom - life for creatures is just as good as life for cards? no, but it's still amazing.
Bitterblossom is teh nutz...
Every time I play a turn two bitterblossom, and my opponent has to read it... I know that I am going to win that game.
Pulp_Fiction
10-13-2008, 09:14 PM
Both Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms are greatly underplayed in Legacy. Same goes for the mighty Wing Shards. A spectacular white removal spell. Spiritmonger, who is one of my top 3 favorite creatures ever is way underutilized, bigger than Goyf and keeps getting bigger, regenerates and changes color, a massive threat that ends games fast.
FoolofaTook
10-13-2008, 10:02 PM
Wall of Roots and Wall of Blossoms (especially Roots) were fine before Goyf. They're not now. That's just the way it is when you have a 2cc critter that can pretty easily get to 5 power.
The walls are cute but they have a lot of things wrong with them. They don't stop a first turn Lackey, they won't usually live through Goyfs, and why would you 1G for something other than Goyf?
freakish777
10-13-2008, 10:29 PM
Niv-Mizzet + Curiosity
While I thoroughly love this combo, your only real option is to pitch Niv into the bin, bring him back with haste via Goryo's Vengeance or Shallow Grave, and then slap Curiosity (or Ophidian Eye?) on him. In all case's we're talking 4 mana (Careful Study/Putrid Imp + Shallow Grave + Curiosity) and 4 cards (I guess 4 mana and 3 cards if you Show and Tell instead), or 6 mana and 3 cards (Buried Alive/Intuition + Shallow Grave + Curiosity). The combo, sadly, requires too much effort. Hardcasting Niv-Mizzet was a viable option in Standard as a niche deck, it definitely is a game losing strategy in Legacy.
My List:
Underplayed - Dark Confidant, Aether Vial (it's good in more than just Goblins), Innocent Blood
Severely underplayed - Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying,
Wish it were playable (well kinda) - Capsize (Holy God is this thing unfun to play against and stupid broken when it gets going), O-Naginata (Goyf gets +3/+0 and trample, rawr!), Seizan Perverter of Truth, Oath of Ghouls (maybe in Goblins?).
Capsize and Eternal Witness beats Rabid Wombat
^Happened :(
Aggro_zombies
10-14-2008, 12:33 AM
While I thoroughly love this combo, your only real option is to pitch Niv into the bin, bring him back with haste via Goryo's Vengeance or Shallow Grave, and then slap Curiosity (or Ophidian Eye?) on him. In all case's we're talking 4 mana (Careful Study/Putrid Imp + Shallow Grave + Curiosity) and 4 cards (I guess 4 mana and 3 cards if you Show and Tell instead), or 6 mana and 3 cards (Buried Alive/Intuition + Shallow Grave + Curiosity). The combo, sadly, requires too much effort. Hardcasting Niv-Mizzet was a viable option in Standard as a niche deck, it definitely is a game losing strategy in Legacy.
My List:
Underplayed - Dark Confidant, Aether Vial (it's good in more than just Goblins), Innocent Blood
Severely underplayed - Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying,
Wish it were playable (well kinda) - Capsize (Holy God is this thing unfun to play against and stupid broken when it gets going), O-Naginata (Goyf gets +3/+0 and trample, rawr!), Seizan Perverter of Truth, Oath of Ghouls (maybe in Goblins?).
Isn't Oversold Cemetery better than Oath of Ghouls? It does basically the same thing, except it's one-sided.
Bitterblossom is teh nutz...
Every time I play a turn two bitterblossom, and my opponent has to read it... I know that I am going to win that game.
What the hell kind of scrubs are you playing against that doesn't know what Bitterblossom is? It's only been the staple of one of the most dominant Standard decks for the last year.
Severely underplayed - Sylvan Library, Skeletal Scrying,
SDT completely outclasses Sylvan Library. It's a shame, too. I ran Sylvan Library in Survival for the longest time if anyone remembers way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, but SDT is so much better.
Skeletal Scrying is awesome. It's a shame we don't have control decks like we used to.
Underplayed: Um...the entire Elf deck. It's sad I'm saying that, but the deck is redonk. Fooling around with it earlier today I played 3 Sylvan Messengers on turn 3, and then played something like 5 lords on turn 4. It was just silly. I personally think it outclasses Goblins given how explosive it is, but the whole Goblin Lackey thing still gives Gobbos the edge.
SDT completely outclasses Sylvan Library. It's a shame, too. I ran Sylvan Library in Survival for the longest time if anyone remembers way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, but SDT is so much better.
Yes. But SDT doesn't draw cards, though it costs a ton of life.
I still agree that it's a pity that Sylvan Library is underplayed because it's strange wording still makes it sick in combination with Hoofprints of the Stag.
Skeletal Scrying is awesome. It's a shame we don't have control decks like we used to.
I began playing Legacy with IBA's Mono Black Control "Jack Black" (Train Wreck without Greensplash) and it was good since you could compensate the lifeloss with Corrupt/Consume Spirit.
Underplayed: Um...the entire Elf deck. It's sad I'm saying that, but the deck is redonk. Fooling around with it earlier today I played 3 Sylvan Messengers on turn 3, and then played something like 5 lords on turn 4. It was just silly. I personally think it outclasses Goblins given how explosive it is, but the whole Goblin Lackey thing still gives Gobbos the edge.
Elves are insane, jipp. Clemens always changes his deck to Elves and smashes me after he got humiliated by me with *any deck I played*.
undone
10-14-2008, 10:44 AM
but the whole Goblin Lackey thing still gives Gobbos the edge.
Lawnmower elves would like a word.
Goblins is better only because of its amazingly disruptive landbase, You could easily make elves that mana base.
rufus
10-14-2008, 10:51 AM
Transmute Artifact also has a kid brother in Reshape. On a similar note, Steelshaper's gift looks like a card with potential.
There's now a long list of 1-2 cc critters that can ruin your opponent's day (True Believer,Gaddock Teeg, Children of Korliss, Yixlid Jailer, and Ethersworn Cannonist at minimum), which means that the critter tutors are steadily getting better.
Puresight Merrow is decent on its own, and has spectacular potential with enablers.
Hideaway lands (especially Shelldock Isle) look like they're just waiting to be exploited.
Crystal Shard/Stampeding Serow + E Witness + Plow Under/Stunted Growth.
That was unfun to play against.
Versus
10-16-2008, 12:00 PM
Natural Balance + Cadaverous Bloom + Squandered Resources: I know why it's not played anymore, but still, I loved that shit.
Outpost: Wasteland owning it and Manlands being better, I guess.
Treetop Village: I'll accept the Wasteland point for Outposts, but I never understood why Village isn't played. I guess CIPT just isn't Legacy viable.
Enchant Creatures (Auras): Other than Armidillo Cloak and Rancor, does anyone play any? Back when I started playing Magic no one ever mentioned being "2 for 1'd", they just played good cards. Empyrial Amour used to be the shit. Newer stuff like Griffin Guide and Sheild of the Oversoul seem pretty solid when I played against them in Standard. Too slow for Legacy, I guess.
Thawing Galciers: That one always puzzles me. I guess because no one runs enough basics to make it worthwhile?
Ebinsugewa
10-16-2008, 12:01 PM
Natural Balance + Cadaverous Bloom + Squandered Resources: I know why it's not played anymore, but still, I loved that shit.
Eight card combos are the goods.
Versus
10-16-2008, 12:29 PM
It's a zero card combo if your single copy of Drain Life is already in the GY and your opponent just scoops because he thinks your gonna go off! :wink:
Ah, maybe all those choice should have gone in the "Cards you really miss playing with now that they are outdated due to better cards being printed" thread.
I'll just go ahead and add Impulse to that list too.
Arsenal
10-16-2008, 12:37 PM
Academy Rector seems like it should be utilized still, but perhaps it's just too dated now to matter. God I remember Vintage Rector-Bargain decks, so sick...
Team-Hero
10-16-2008, 02:55 PM
I like Primal Order. It has won me many games. I use the Homelands exp, so it adds to the 'pleasure' of winning with an underplayed card.
thefreakaccident
10-16-2008, 02:59 PM
I like playing with this nifty little combo:
mishra's factory + humility...
and another little combo that also works pretty well:
decree of justice + humility
Vacrix
10-16-2008, 03:02 PM
remand isn't played nearly enough.
its like a timewalk vs aggro
you can remand your own spells against control (ie. tutors at low cc)
and when you remand a business spell (ie. AdN) they lose all the cards building up to play it (lotus petal, chrome mox, dark ritual, etc.)
and its not bad to remand something against stompy, as they lose 2 life from tomb every time they play something. good deal, let them kill themselves.
Citrus-God
10-16-2008, 03:17 PM
I like playing with this nifty little combo:
mishra's factory + humility...
and another little combo that also works pretty well:
decree of justice + humility
Cunning Wish + Enlighten Tutor + Humility = gg
kilukru
10-16-2008, 04:47 PM
Gaea's Cradle , come on, we can do something with that card!
TheLion
10-16-2008, 04:50 PM
I'm wondering why nobody plays Bomberman anymore. It was one of top decks in Legacy. AFAIK it's still a force in Vintage. Of course there is graveyard hate, but other decks suffer from it too.
Forbiddian
10-16-2008, 05:31 PM
@ The Lion: It's combo that loses to other combo without being a whole lot safer against control while being susceptible to the same graveyard hate.
Especially in metagames with a lot of Ichorid, you'd basically lose to Ichorid and then lose to the people who hate out Ichorid.
If nobody plays Ichorid and nobody hates Ichorid, then you're better off playing Ichorid anyway.
TheInfamousBearAssassin
10-16-2008, 05:51 PM
Krosan Tusker
Scrying Sheets
Cabal Coffers
Mirari's Wake
Gigapede
Gifts Ungiven
Fact or Fiction
Regrowth
Moment's Peace
Cryptic Command
Akroma's Vengeance
People are stuck on a Landstill rut in the entire control archetype, and only on a few certain builds of Landstill. There's quite a few ways to approach control in this format.
SpatulaOfTheAges
10-16-2008, 06:17 PM
Uh... Goblin Welder?
emidln
10-16-2008, 06:23 PM
Doomsday
dahcmai
10-16-2008, 06:27 PM
Loyal Retainers - You'd think with all the Legends printed, one of them would break this in half by now.
Land Equilibrium - Amazing still no one can get a deck to work with this.
Anvil of Bogarden - You'd think with a 2 cc artifact that draws cards and dumps stuff in the GY, it would have slipped into a deck by now. Hell, even Threshold wouldn't mind that effect.
Mana Vortex - It's like a UU cheapy Stax.
Scroll Rack - It's like a Divining Top on steroids for one more mana.
Berserk - With all the decent Green guys that have popped out of the new sets this should make a comeback, but it mysteriously doesn't. Guess we need Uber goyf one green, power/toughness = number of cards in graveyards.
Transmute Artifact - I so want to bust something and go get a Possessed Portal with this thing one day.
Helix Pinnacle - a Shrouded, one green, enchantment that wins if you get an infinite mana combo out? That doesn't sound too hideous. How many infinite mana combos are there in Legacy?
Regrowth - Ok, what happened Regrowth, you used to be hot shit. You're like the child star grown up and on drugs now.
Frenger
10-16-2008, 06:46 PM
Accumulated Knowledge for sure. I love that card in togless (GBU Intuition control) where it's really good but nothing else runs it, and I only know one guy who plays togless.
Gifts Ungiven as well.
I kind of feel like crop rotation should be abused too.
Solpugid
10-16-2008, 07:12 PM
Isochron scepter, Jace Beleren, Swans of Bryn Argol, and yes Goblin welder.
KillemallCFH
10-16-2008, 10:06 PM
Jace BelerenQFT x4,000,000,000.
TheLion
10-17-2008, 03:58 AM
Krosan Tusker
People are stuck on a Landstill rut in the entire control archetype, and only on a few certain builds of Landstill. There's quite a few ways to approach control in this format.
Totally aggreed. It's the same with most other decks, unfortunately. It seems that people spend to few effort into building other decks.
Actually Standstill + manlands really isn't a very innovative game plan.
The problem is, most people don't accept less played cards and only focus on already proven synergies/strategies and cards.
I once played against some competetive deck (I think it was ITF?) on MWS and won with a single Kodama of the North Tree. He could'nt believe it and flamed me with: "LOL, look what you play. n00b!!11" and left.
Or new players, who wants to get into Legacy, go to the forums and ask: What should I play? If they then post a rogue decklist, with let's say some Goblin Welder interactions or their casual Reanimator deck, the most common answers would be: This is crap. Get duals and Forces and play Threshold instead.
So he believes the common opinion and we have another boring Threshold deck on the next tourny.
People argue that Goblin Welder is a */1 and dies to easily but at the same time they play Dark Confidant.
@Frenger: Crop Rotation is already abused in Eternal Garden.dec
SpatulaOfTheAges
10-17-2008, 11:35 AM
I have to say this again.
...Goblin Welder?
Seriously. All this other crap is great and all, but the little red dude is the most criminally underplayed card in the format.
TheLion
10-17-2008, 12:49 PM
the interesting thing is to figure out, why those cards (maybe especially welder) are underplayed. ideas?
Meditate
Jace Beleren
Golbin Welder
Gigapede
Intuition
Living Wish
Gaea's Cradle
Cryptic Command
Spellstutter Sprite
Skeletal Scrying
Disrupt
Spatula, the problem with Goblin Welder is not him. It's the deck he belongs in. Granted, with a card as busted as that one there are probably a lot of uses. But his interaction with Survival of the Fittest screams broken. (With any other engine the little fella is pretty vulnerable.) And while getting him online is generally deadly in short order, the disruption for the deck is common and powerful (Needle, Grip, Force, etc) Crypt is not so good against it btw. You could possibly cut the combo pieces in favor of a more aggressive approach, etc, etc. But even if you get the usual negotiation of aggro-to-combo ratio correct, you still face the problem of a terrible game against combo. Bottom line: I love the deck [Finn Sept 2004, 1st post ever: Here is my Welder Survival list, can you guys help?]
...but Threshold owns it. So does TES. And most modern Landstill builds....etc.
The trick would be to find a way for Welder to be featured as effectively without Survival.
freakish777
10-17-2008, 03:16 PM
Spatula, the problem with Goblin Welder is not him. It's the deck he belongs in. Granted, with a card as busted as that one there are probably a lot of uses. But his interaction with Survival of the Fittest screams broken. (With any other engine the little fella is pretty vulnerable.) And while getting him online is generally deadly in short order, the disruption for the deck is common and powerful (Needle, Grip, Force, etc) Crypt is not so good against it btw. You could possibly cut the combo pieces in favor of a more aggressive approach, etc, etc. But even if you get the usual negotiation of aggro-to-combo ratio correct, you still face the problem of a terrible game against combo. Bottom line: I love the deck [Finn Sept 2004, 1st post ever: Here is my Welder Survival list, can you guys help?]
...but Threshold owns it. So does TES. And most modern Landstill builds....etc.
The trick would be to find a way for Welder to be featured as effectively without Survival.
Thank All That Is Holy that Wizards R&D put "with converted mana cost 1 or less" on Artificer's Intuition.
morgan_coke
10-17-2008, 07:19 PM
astral slide + eternal witness.
jbmulder
10-18-2008, 07:29 AM
I have to second Fact or Fiction. Whenever it's played against an opponent they instantly lose confidence. They assume they won't make a good decision.
The card stands on its own, but it's as much a mind game as anything else. Don't underestimate mind games.
Don't overestimate them either. :eyebrow:
Citrus-God
10-18-2008, 03:09 PM
I have to second Fact or Fiction. Whenever it's played against an opponent they instantly lose confidence. They assume they won't make a good decision.
The card stands on its own, but it's as much a mind game as anything else. Don't underestimate mind games.
Don't overestimate them either. :eyebrow:
Fact or Fiction is amazing. Players sometimes see it as such a bad card, they get cocky and aggressively split piles like 2 lands, wog, swords, and cspell into
wog, land vs. swords, cspell, land.
That is a terrible pile. Depending on the board position, whichever pile you take, you're going to benefit from it extremely heavily because whichever pile you get gives you a land drop and card advantage.
The card is yes, very good for mind games when you're playing it in whichever phase you're playing it at; main phase, eot, or when spell is on the stack. It's also the most underrated Cunning Wish target of all time and also gets you those land drops for DoJ as well as ballin' digging power to find win conditions.
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