[Deck] ShusherVoid

[Lurker101]

Here's my version of ShusherVoid for Legacy. This is untested.
//Lands:18
4 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Windswept Heath

//Creatures:18
1 Platinum Angel
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vexing Shusher
2 Demigod of Revenge
4 ESG

//Other Spells:24
4 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Nether Void
3 Mana Web
4 Regrowth
2 Night's Whisper

//Sideboard
1 Platinum Angel
2 Night's Whisper
4 Infernal Contract
2 Mindlock Orb
2 Lich's Mirror
4 Damnation

Basically you want to get Nether Void down as fast as you can, followed by Vexing Shusher to bypass the Nether Void's counter ability as well as other counter spells and play creatures through Shusher to beatdown.

The sideboard is basically additional draw in case Nether Void is too hard to find and control (Mindlock Orb) as well as time buying (Lich's Mirror, Platinum Angel, Damnation). You'd only want to play damnation after a Lich's Mirror activation to help clear the board.

[saspook]

What about Demigod of Revenge in this - possibly instead of terrevore.

Then, even if they are playing counter, you stack the trigger and then let the nether void counter the Demigod.

[Vacrix]

yo need some MD protection. cabal therapy/thoughseize/duress are in your colors.
birds of paradise fits in with therapy and accelerates you into a fast nether void.

heres an idea for a different avenue of play:
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Lotus Petal
4 shield sphere
4 phyrexian walker
4 culling the weak
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 dark ritual
4 Diabolic Intent
4 tarmogoyf
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nether Void

you effectively run 7 nethervoid and 7 shusher (8 of each is too many multiples).
culling the weak can get you void turn 1. all the mana allows you to play void out very fast.
and you have 8 MD protection.
you can have a storm board too:
out:
3 void
3 shusher
4 tarmogoyf
3 nether void
1 SSG

in:
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Ad Nauseum
4 Mystical Tutor

or something like that.


SSG and ESG let you produce mana under nethervoid, you arent playing spells.

its kinda farfetched, but whatever.

[Lurker101]

What about Demigod of Revenge in this - possibly instead of terrevore.

Then, even if they are playing counter, you stack the trigger and then let the nether void counter the Demigod.
I added two Demigod and 1 confidant. The other build is just two far-fetched for me. I used to run ESG in my vintage build and it worked sometimes and I like the inclusion of culling the weak but I have alot of experience testing Nether Void-Shusher in vintage and this approach seems to work best.

[Forbiddian]

Isn't nethervoid kindof a weak trinisphere? And isn't ShusherVoid a weak Countertop?

I dunno, the deck doesn't seem to be able to capitalize on any short-term mana advantage that it has. Even with the Shusher down, spells cost R/G more to play than they would have without the void.

It might have a good matchup against control, but how the deck seems kindo impotent against a turn 1 threat (unlike Trinisphere, which can go down turn 1). Also Rituals and such are totally dead draws after Void is down. How does the deck expect to win after Void resolves?

Cycle Decree of Justice or play Manlands, go off on turn 1-2, play a big threat on turn 1 or 2, etc. all seem to hurt your deck massively.


I hate to be a naysayer, but you should test your deck to at least address those concerns or theorycraft what your deck has good matchups against. I posit that all combo, threshold, landstill, and land-based decks (read: 43 land, eternal garden) would destroy your deck. I don't know what your deck has in terms of good matchups. Probably strong blue based control or slowplaying combo or something would lose to this.

[Vacrix]

Nether void is actually much better than a trinisphere for B more.
think about it.
lotus petal costs 3 under both.
but Mogg Fanatic costs 4.
Tendrils costs 7.

Everything costs 3 more, its much much better.

[Lurker101]

Nether void is actually much better than a trinisphere for B more.
think about it.
lotus petal costs 3 under both.
but Mogg Fanatic costs 4.
Tendrils costs 7.

Everything costs 3 more, its much much better.

It also has the advantage of being more like Mana Leak than being like a sphere, letting shusher get creatures into play under it.

[Omega]

Bord removal would be nice too to get rid of problematic permanents that might have come into before the void is online

Robert

[Happy Gilmore]

Isn't nethervoid kindof a weak trinisphere? And isn't ShusherVoid a weak Countertop?



This, at least the second part for sure.

[Poron]

in a deck like this you obviously need Mana Web

[GenghisTom]

Welcome to the Forums

you seem to be throwing out a lot of random deck idea's lately, all of which include 4x Ghost Quarter. What exactly is your obsession with this card? Why would you play it over Wasteland?

[Lurker101]

Welcome to the Forums

you seem to be throwing out a lot of random deck idea's lately, all of which include 4x Ghost Quarter. What exactly is your obsession with this card? Why would you play it over Wasteland?
It hits basics too and some decks don't play basics so it can act as a strip mine. You can also run your opponent out of basics with this and hit non-basics for a hard lock.

[Lurker101]

Bord removal would be nice too to get rid of problematic permanents that might have come into before the void is online

Robert

Sorry about double posting. This is why I have 4 damnation in the SB. Usually you can get void online before they drop too many threats and my deck is threat heavy itself. I also don't see how this is a second rate counter-top. This deck kills faster and has a less complicated, less mana consuming control lock. It is also more consistent. Counter-Top can't always find the right cards with the right CMCs to counter opposing spells, Nether Void always works.

[jericohs@cottage]

Hey Lurker,

I love the deck idea. It resembles dragon stompy. I have no experience playing your deck but i have played dragon stompy quite a few times. Dragon Stompy flourishes in the environment because of its ability to cast turn 1 Magus of the Moon or Trinisphere. My question is this, if your effectively building a more potent/expensive/yet one turn slower Aggro Stax deck. Why would you not focuss on getting it out as quickly as possible by playing: DR, ESG, SSG and chrome mox? Dragon Stompy is tier 1 because of its ability to power those out turn one. Why not try and replicate that idea? The list Vacrix provided you has this in mind.

I mean the only method you could drop nether void turn one would be via DR.

Another quick one, I see that you play Crucible/Ghost Quarter? I like it, but don't you think that it does nothing for the rest of the deck? Synergy wise. You could replace those slots for 3 more mana accelerants and keep the ghost quarters (0you can always regrowth)... I'd replace Ghost Quarter with basics.

[Lurker101]

Hey Lurker,

I love the deck idea. It resembles dragon stompy. I have no experience playing your deck but i have played dragon stompy quite a few times. Dragon Stompy flourishes in the environment because of its ability to cast turn 1 Magus of the Moon or Trinisphere. My question is this, if your effectively building a more potent/expensive/yet one turn slower Aggro Stax deck. Why would you not focuss on getting it out as quickly as possible by playing: DR, ESG, SSG and chrome mox? Dragon Stompy is tier 1 because of its ability to power those out turn one. Why not try and replicate that idea? The list Vacrix provided you has this in mind.

I mean the only method you could drop nether void turn one would be via DR.

Another quick one, I see that you play Crucible/Ghost Quarter? I like it, but don't you think that it does nothing for the rest of the deck? Synergy wise. You could replace those slots for 3 more mana accelerants and keep the ghost quarters (0you can always regrowth)... I'd replace Ghost Quarter with basics.
I changed the list, took out ghost quarter, crucible, and 1 Mox Diamond and added 4 ESG and 2 chrome mox. I see your point.

[saspook]

I am not sure about the dark confidents. It seems like there are a lot of cards that can take a big part of your life out. Like Platinum Angel.

Also, once you get a Void out, the Mana Web seems redundent. If they are tapping lands for mana under a void, they are probably tapping a lot of lands already. Would a Trinisphere or two be better here?

While I agree with removing Ghost Quarters, Wasteland could be included in the deck. 2 of, or more I don't know.

[Vacrix]

Hey Lurker,

I love the deck idea. It resembles dragon stompy. I have no experience playing your deck but i have played dragon stompy quite a few times. Dragon Stompy flourishes in the environment because of its ability to cast turn 1 Magus of the Moon or Trinisphere. My question is this, if your effectively building a more potent/expensive/yet one turn slower Aggro Stax deck. Why would you not focuss on getting it out as quickly as possible by playing: DR, ESG, SSG and chrome mox? Dragon Stompy is tier 1 because of its ability to power those out turn one. Why not try and replicate that idea? The list Vacrix provided you has this in mind.

I mean the only method you could drop nether void turn one would be via DR.

Another quick one, I see that you play Crucible/Ghost Quarter? I like it, but don't you think that it does nothing for the rest of the deck? Synergy wise. You could replace those slots for 3 more mana accelerants and keep the ghost quarters (0you can always regrowth)... I'd replace Ghost Quarter with basics.

good call bro. ;D

the point i was trying to make is not that you should play it as if its storm combo. you need to power out void if you want it to be effective. SI and belcher will kill you before it ever comes down. And (if this ever gets good enough to be a popular choice) if you play against FT/TES they will beable to find an answer for it before you even drop it.

you should do well against control if you run confidant and shusher MD.

also, consider worldy tutor as it can find either shusher or confidant, and whatever else you want if you are still running platnium angel.

also i would cut stuff for 4 duress and 4 thoughtseize. just so you can actually protect it. then again, you may not need protection as you wont be going for nethervoid against control. so maybe nvm. but discard is good against stompy and control and combo so maybe its a good idea.

also, if your run worldly tutor, searching for plaguespitter is secret tech against aggro. its amazing against elves. goblins will more likely burn it then StP it.

this deck has alot of potential. you just need to test it and try to give it lots of speed. birds of paradise comes to mind. and if you have that, maybe run cabal therapy.

[Vacrix]

you know another way to approach this is to fit Nether void and shusher into a stax build. i'm sure it can be done.

[Forbiddian]

Nether void is actually much better than a trinisphere for B more.
think about it.
lotus petal costs 3 under both.
but Mogg Fanatic costs 4.
Tendrils costs 7.

Everything costs 3 more, its much much better.

Ah... no.

Ok, lemme break this down for you and what I mean by "weaker." I mean that the card is less effective. Weaker.

1) Costing B more actually matters. That means it comes down a turn later. When the deck is about locking down the opponent, this matters a lot. Your opponent might have a turn 1 Welder. Or if you don't draw enough acceleration a turn 2 Tarmogoyf. Oops sux2bu. Also, using your ridiculous argument that adding B doesn't matter, you could win the game for just B more by playing Ad Nauseum.

2) It's also harder to get a positive effect out of NV because Trinisphere only affects spells costing less than three. Both prevent action by your opponent until turn 3, but (assuming you have faster mana) Trinisphere lets you get ahead by making your turn 4 play while your opponent QQs. With Nether Void, you rely on drawing a Shusher.

3) Ok, I think 1 and 2 proved my point. But your opponent might also be running Vexing Shusher (extremely popular). Basing your deck on an obscure, hard-to-cast card that provides board parity in a vacuum and then comboing that with a card that's actually played a lot does not seem like the best strategy, especially when your deck can't take advantage of the 1 or maybe 2 turn hiccup. A lot of decks (like Goblins) would have Vexing Shusher. Not to mention Aether Vial. Not to mention Goblin Lackey. Not to mention Goblins is the most popular deck evar composing over 9000% of the metagame.




It seems like it only kills 3 land of your opponent's at best (and it still makes it so you can't cast anything). Secondly, even with Shusher on the board, it still kills one of your land.

3B: Sacrifice a land, Target player sacrifices 3 land. If you don't have some random 4-of in hand or the board, sacrifice 2 more land. ?!? How is that good?


Is the plan to resolve Nether Void on turn 1 with Mox Diamond, land, dark ritual, nethervoid? Turn 2 follow it up with a Vexing Susher?

Did I mention how that costs 6 cards? That's IF you miss your second land drop so you can't even cast anything (unless it costs 1). Basically you kill 3 of your opponent's lands for 6 cards? Uhm, try Hymn to Tourach next time, it has a whole lot less suck because you only lose 1 card and you destroy two of your opponent's, not the other way around.

And unless your opponent is mana screwed, he can probably hit four land drops in a row to swords your Shusher before you can hit 8 land to resolve that Platinum Angel bomb you got there. That's like your Plan fucking A!

What about plan B: You don't have a Vexing Shusher. Do you still go for the turn 1 Void? If you do, GLHF, your opponent might go turn 1 Mishras, turn 2 Island and roll you out the door before you get two more land to cast a spell.

What about plan B: You don't have a Dark Ritual. Then Void waits until turn 3 (at the earliest) when you're dealing with Turn 1 Vial, Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 1 Lackey, Turn 1 any creature like Drake, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Turn 2 Dryad, Turn 2 fetchlands into Life from the Loam, turn 2 Standstill, turn 2 manland, turn 2 Ad Naseum, all of which GGNR your deck.

What about plan B: You don't have a Nether Void. Now your deck plays like a pile. Black that wasted all its slots on fast mana but nothing to follow it up (short of a turn 5 Platinum Angel).

Even with Nether Void down, the deck is bad. I don't see how it wins any games against Faerie Stompy (Vial and too strong T1 play), Goblins (Vial, Lackey, Shusher), Landstill (counterspells, manlands), 43 land.dec (duh), ITF (counters, enough lands to go over the top), thresh (counters), suicide black (same deck only better, also disruption), combo (counters, bounce endstep, disruption, the-fact-that-your-spells-cost-4-and-don't-win-the-game-whereas-their-spells-cost-4-to-5-and-win-the-game), dragonstompy, that-deck-I-drafted (grizzly bears, scathe zombies, pearled unicorn=way too strong).

To survive, it needs both Vexing Shusher AND Nether Void and even then it's unreliable. A lot of decks could ramp up to turn 4-6 where they start playing like normal.

You could also win the game with Grindstone instead of Void and Painter's Servant instead of Vexing Shusher. But that's not important, I guess.

[Vacrix]

Ah... no.

Ok, lemme break this down for you and what I mean by "weaker." I mean that the card is less effective. Weaker.

1) Costing B more actually matters. That means it comes down a turn later. When the deck is about locking down the opponent, this matters a lot. Your opponent might have a turn 1 Welder. Or if you don't draw enough acceleration a turn 2 Tarmogoyf. Oops sux2bu. Also, using your ridiculous argument that adding B doesn't matter, you could win the game for just B more by playing Ad Nauseum.

2) It's also harder to get a positive effect out of NV because Trinisphere only affects spells costing less than three. Both prevent action by your opponent until turn 3, but (assuming you have faster mana) Trinisphere lets you get ahead by making your turn 4 play while your opponent QQs. With Nether Void, you rely on drawing a Shusher.

3) Ok, I think 1 and 2 proved my point. But your opponent might also be running Vexing Shusher (extremely popular). Basing your deck on an obscure, hard-to-cast card that provides board parity in a vacuum and then comboing that with a card that's actually played a lot does not seem like the best strategy, especially when your deck can't take advantage of the 1 or maybe 2 turn hiccup. A lot of decks (like Goblins) would have Vexing Shusher. Not to mention Aether Vial. Not to mention Goblin Lackey. Not to mention Goblins is the most popular deck evar composing over 9000% of the metagame.




It seems like it only kills 3 land of your opponent's at best (and it still makes it so you can't cast anything). Secondly, even with Shusher on the board, it still kills one of your land.

3B: Sacrifice a land, Target player sacrifices 3 land. If you don't have some random 4-of in hand or the board, sacrifice 2 more land. ?!? How is that good?


Is the plan to resolve Nether Void on turn 1 with Mox Diamond, land, dark ritual, nethervoid? Turn 2 follow it up with a Vexing Susher?

Did I mention how that costs 6 cards? That's IF you miss your second land drop so you can't even cast anything (unless it costs 1). Basically you kill 3 of your opponent's lands for 6 cards? Uhm, try Hymn to Tourach next time, it has a whole lot less suck because you only lose 1 card and you destroy two of your opponent's, not the other way around.

And unless your opponent is mana screwed, he can probably hit four land drops in a row to swords your Shusher before you can hit 8 land to resolve that Platinum Angel bomb you got there. That's like your Plan fucking A!

What about plan B: You don't have a Vexing Shusher. Do you still go for the turn 1 Void? If you do, GLHF, your opponent might go turn 1 Mishras, turn 2 Island and roll you out the door before you get two more land to cast a spell.

What about plan B: You don't have a Dark Ritual. Then Void waits until turn 3 (at the earliest) when you're dealing with Turn 1 Vial, Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 1 Lackey, Turn 1 any creature like Drake, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Turn 2 Dryad, Turn 2 fetchlands into Life from the Loam, turn 2 Standstill, turn 2 manland, turn 2 Ad Naseum, all of which GGNR your deck.

What about plan B: You don't have a Nether Void. Now your deck plays like a pile. Black that wasted all its slots on fast mana but nothing to follow it up (short of a turn 5 Platinum Angel).

Even with Nether Void down, the deck is bad. I don't see how it wins any games against Faerie Stompy (Vial and too strong T1 play), Goblins (Vial, Lackey, Shusher), Landstill (counterspells, manlands), 43 land.dec (duh), ITF (counters, enough lands to go over the top), thresh (counters), suicide black (same deck only better, also disruption), combo (counters, bounce endstep, disruption, the-fact-that-your-spells-cost-4-and-don't-win-the-game-whereas-their-spells-cost-4-to-5-and-win-the-game), dragonstompy, that-deck-I-drafted (grizzly bears, scathe zombies, pearled unicorn=way too strong).

To survive, it needs both Vexing Shusher AND Nether Void and even then it's unreliable. A lot of decks could ramp up to turn 4-6 where they start playing like normal.

You could also win the game with Grindstone instead of Void and Painter's Servant instead of Vexing Shusher. But that's not important, I guess.

ya i see what you meant, but that was not what i was saying either. you said Nether Void was a weaker trinisphere. i merely said that its not. its a stronger trinisphere. dude people have played around something costs B more in B decks and combo decks forever. and land + mox/simian spirit guide + dark ritual + NV is not that hard to pull off. especially if you run other accelerants too. i wasnt arguing that shusher + void is good. i was arguing that void is good. it think the combo is fairly mediocre to tell you the truth. in fact i was more interested in the development of powering out a fast nethervoid then anything else. i mean its hard to get around void without shusher. aggros shit costs at least 4? and they usually play off of 4 land? dam:

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tomb of Urami
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Mox Diamond

4 Nethervoid
4 Trinisphere
2 Mana Web
4 Dark Ritual
4 ESG
4 Thoughseize
4 Duress
4 Sinkhole
4 Pernicious Deed

with a decent board. i mean, if you are on the play against aggro with void in hand, you just need:
mox diamond, tomb, ESG
ESG, dark rit
dark rit, mox diamond
and trinisphere is even easier obviously. to increase the turn 1 NV i would go with SSG too and cut sinkhole.

if void comes down. aggro isnt doing shit til turn 4. meanwhile you can blow their lands up with wasteland and sinkhole and bring the beats. meh its a terrible list but im sure the idea could be put to work. also, NV is quite excellent vs. FT/TES/ANT. imagine trying to resolve krosan grip for 6? haha or even chain of vapor costs 4. repeal costs like 8. naturalize costs 5.

[Forbiddian]

Part of the strength of the card is the casting cost. That's why Tarmogoyf is "strong" because it's compared to spells that cost 1G (or 1X). SRSLY arguing semantics?


Nether Void is horrible. I only see it theoretically viable in Suicide Black where you could get board control and then Nether Void as a hard lock. That has a number of problems outlined previously, but here's the basic breakdown on why NV is bad:

Decks pretty much either try to get board control or run a lot of land. In the first case, you can't cast NV without board control because it'll lock the board down and you'll be in even worse shape when people ramp up the land count. In the second case, your opponent will be able to ramp out of NV range by getting out 5, 6, even 7 land up before you can. These are the decks that NV is good against, but in the long run, NV will hurt you much more than it will hurt control. The long run will happen a lot if they swords your attempt at board control with NV on the stack.

Decks that run very few lands and try not to get board control pretty much don't exist (or they're combo and then the question is whether you have a turn 1 Nether Void or not, which is much much harder).

Maybe 43 land.dec could sideboard NV or something. I dunno. NV just doesn't seem effective because of its high mana cost and global effect. The only way I see to get an advantage from it is to run a lot of manlands and be able to kill your opponent before turn 5 or 6.

[Eseph]

Decks that run very few lands and try not to get board control pretty much don't exist (or they're combo and then the question is whether you have a turn 1 Nether Void or not, which is much much harder).

Burn would like to have a nice long chat with you...


Maybe 43 land.dec could sideboard NV or something. I dunno. NV just doesn't seem effective because of its high mana cost and global effect. The only way I see to get an advantage from it is to run a lot of manlands and be able to kill your opponent before turn 5 or 6.

This is what I would agree on, though I do not think Nether Void is bad it just needs to find it's spot in legacy. I've always enjoyed running it in land denial decks, and it can be strong in such a deck. I don't think it can work in a stompy styled deck, but in MBC or something with a large number of lands it would be right at home.