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FoolofaTook
10-16-2008, 05:11 PM
I've been trying various Ubg Landstill lists recently with mixed success. This is a throwback to a simpler time in the Magic community. It mixes a bunch of counterspells with a bunch of sweepers and relies on a few under-costed threats and a few mid-game bombs to add some inevitability to the overall mix.

BTW, it's called Bugstill for esoteric reasons related to earlier versions of the deck. Renaming it doesn't seem right given that when I pick it up it still looks a lot like Bugstill did.

Creatures (4)

4x Tarmogoyf

Artifacts (9)

3x Darksteel Brute
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Nevinyrral's Disk

Enchantments (7)

4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed

Sorceries (2)

2x Haunting Echoes

Instants (14)

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Counterspell
1x Spell Snare

Lands (24)

4x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Bayou
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard

2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Stifle
3x Pithing Needle


Card choices where not obvious:

Tarmogoyf is in, despite not having many creatures or sorceries in the deck, because the meta is defined by Tarmogoyf and I need to have an answer to the opponent's goyf while I setup a sweeper early on. Goyf also wins games accidentally so what's not to like?

Darksteel Brute is in because it lives through all the sweepers. The fact that I can safely put it in play early and then just leave it lurking until things are under control is also nice. It's not a particularly powerful card on it's own, because it's too mana intensive, but it fills the need here for a permanent source of damage that is easy to deploy and that lives through the mayhem the rest of the deck tends to create. I had two in when I put this together and I added a third when I realized I was never unhappy with it in the opening hand and I liked to have it come out almost every game. Being recurrable with Academy Ruins is kind of nice also. In the original build the brutes were Gigapedes, which I couldn't stand having in the opening hand.

Crucible of Worlds was not in the original build either. I had two Life from the Loam there in it's place because I was worried about sweeping my own recursion mechanism away with deed and EE which were the sweepers in the first build. I gradually realized that both deed and EE tend to go off at 2, not 3 and that Crucible was just a better card in the mix given that reality. Adding Nevy's Disk didn't change that equation enough to take the Crucibles out.

Nevinyrral's Disk had to be added as a mid-game catch-all sweeper. Particular problem cards that I couldn't manage well against in it's absence were Blood Moon effects, Gathan Raider, Tombstalker and the Planeswalkers that have become so prevalent in the meta. The disk + darksteel brute mechanism is slow as hell but it works. The disk also gets around Counterbalance fairly well if I have counter support in hand.

Haunting Echoes is a mid-game bomb for a deck that counters a lot of spells and sweeps a lot of permanents. The opponent's graveyard usually has ten cards in it by the time this gets cast and then another dozen or so cards are removed from his potential gameplan. This is not a tempo bomb so much as an inevitability bomb. The fact that Haunting Echoes doesn't effect the opponent's hand or the board makes it very hard to play in most themes, despite the fact that it is a crippler in a control context. This list seems to be able to exploit it because it has so much board control built-in. This is the card most likely to change at this point however it's causing a lot more trouble for the opponent than me to date so I'm keeping it for now.

Cards that were in at one point but have been removed:

Dark Ritual was in when three of the threats the deck played could take advantage of it. When I pulled the Hypnotic Specters from the mix it just went well below the point of viability in the overall theme. It was always iffy and then it became just plain bad.

Gigapede gave the deck it's name, along with the much heavier black presence that used to be there. I still like it in this type of theme, however it was another card I hated to see in the opening hand. The deck has a fairly high casting curve and too many uncastables were piling up in the opening hand. The Darksteel Brutes at least cast on turn two with very few issues, and if they're countered they can come back later with Academy Ruins.

Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach were replaced by a much heavier blue presence and lots of counterspells. Discard is just not worth a major effort at this point. Too many themes want to put cards in the graveyard and even against people who don't these are often lousy topdecks in the midgame, like 90% of the time.

Cards I'd love to get in there but have no room for:

Ponder is a card I really want in the deck. It just doesn't fit. I'd have to pull the Haunting Echoes, which might be a good idea, and a couple of counterspells or sweepers, which would not. I could also pull the Standstills, but that's fairly certain to be a loser of a move given the lack of card advantage elsewhere in the deck.

Harmonize is a card I looked at really hard and if the Haunting Echoes go they'll probably go for Harmonize.

The deck plays like a control deck, trying to survive the first few turns with counterplay in order to setup a strong mid-game and inevitability late. It has trouble with storm combo and can get over-run by early creature-based aggro. It does fairly well against other control themes and if it survives the first few turns it does well against most of the field.

Deep6er
10-16-2008, 05:40 PM
Nevinyrral's Disk had to be added as a mid-game catch-all sweeper. Particular problem cards that I couldn't manage well against in it's absence were Blood Moon effects, Gathan Raider, Tombstalker and the Planeswalkers that have become so prevalent in the meta. The disk + darksteel brute mechanism is slow as hell but it works. The disk also gets around Counterbalance fairly well if I have counter support in hand.

Funny story about Planeswalkers. You can't kill them with Disk.

Also, Daze in a control deck? As a three-of? That seems like it could be bad.

raharu
10-16-2008, 05:46 PM
Two questions: First, why would you play Harmonize over either Fact or Fiction, Skeletal Scrying, Moonlight Bargain, or Concentrate? Also, do you think it could be beneficial to remove a Disk from the main, add the 4th Pernicious Deed, and pull a Stifle and a Pithing Needle from the sideboard, replacing them with Disks?

EDIT: Whoa, wait, what the fuck? Daze? huh... no. Sounds like a pretty bad plan. No, actually it sounds terrible. I think the solution is to 86 the Dazes and add two Counterspells and a Spell Snare or a Counterspell and two Spell Snares, because Snares and Counterspell aren't actually all that slow, and they also don't take tempo away from you/ set you back on land drops (which is a huge no-no for control, especially in a deck with such heavy mana costs).

FoolofaTook
10-16-2008, 05:54 PM
Funny story about Planeswalkers. You can't kill them with Disk.

Also, Daze in a control deck? As a three-of? That seems like it could be bad.

Daze pitches to Force of Will and it helps against early combo. The deck has real problems in the first couple of turns against storm combo.

Nevy will stay in because of Blood Moon, Counterbalance and the high casting cost creatures that land fast. I'm not sure what to do about the Planeswalkers at this point, there's no room for bounce in the main deck.

FoolofaTook
10-16-2008, 06:06 PM
Two questions: First, why would you play Harmonize over either Fact or Fiction, Skeletal Scrying, Moonlight Bargain, or Concentration? Also, do you think it could be beneficial to remove a Disk from the main, add the 4th Pernicious Deed, and pull a Stifle and a Pithing Needle from the sideboard, replacing them with Disks?

I'd play Harmonize over Fact or Fiction because I don't want to give my opponent a choice in how things evolve. Same casting cost and rough window of effect on the game, however with Harmonize I know what cards I just drew and my opponent doesn't.

I'd play Harmonize over Skeletal Scrying because the life cost to draw the cards is something a blue-based control deck often cannot afford. Also if the opponent has ditched your graveyard or you don't have one Skeletal Scrying is a dead card. Similar deal for Moonlight Bargain in terms of the life loss. This deck plays a lot like Landstill, including getting down on life before stabilizing at some point.

The disks improved the consistency of the deck. Would it be similarly consistent with the 4th Deed? Not against Dragon Stompy.

Deep6er
10-16-2008, 06:21 PM
Daze pitches to Force of Will and it helps against early combo. The deck has real problems in the first couple of turns against storm combo.

Nevy will stay in because of Blood Moon, Counterbalance and the high casting cost creatures that land fast. I'm not sure what to do about the Planeswalkers at this point, there's no room for bounce in the main deck.

Yeah, but Daze is also a dead draw late game. Which is, coincidentally, exactly where you're trying to get.

I've tried Daze in control decks before, it didn't work out so well because you set yourself back from being able to set up (after all, most control decks need lands in play to set up the more powerful components of their deck), and you kill later draws.

Just because it pitches to Force isn't a good enough reason to include it. If that was the reason, then Force Spike would be better. After all, it's not like you're tapping out the first couple of turns. You don't have the cards that are supposed to be used early (like Top, and Ponder), so Daze doesn't make any sense.

raharu
10-16-2008, 06:23 PM
I'd play Harmonize over Fact or Fiction because I don't want to give my opponent a choice in how things evolve. Same casting cost and rough window of effect on the game, however with Harmonize I know what cards I just drew and my opponent doesn't.

I'd play Harmonize over Skeletal Scrying because the life cost to draw the cards is something a blue-based control deck often cannot afford. Also if the opponent has ditched your graveyard or you don't have one Skeletal Scrying is a dead card. Similar deal for Moonlight Bargain in terms of the life loss. This deck plays a lot like Landstill, including getting down on life before stabilizing at some point.

Concentrate is still better in every way because it's Blue (i.e. easier to cast and pitches to FoW). Also, it's very important to remember that FoF typically gives you the best 2 cards out of the top 5, and that it's an instant (which is pretty huge), and it only has a single colored mana symbol in the casting cost (not so big a deal, but it's there).


The disks improved the consistency of the deck. Would it be similarly consistent with the 4th Deed? Not against Dragon Stompy.

Which is why they're still in the board.

NQN
10-16-2008, 06:51 PM
lol. nice one. A worse version of Ubg Goyf-Still. Well done ;)

marit
10-16-2008, 07:24 PM
You're reasoning of FoF is terribly flawed, FoF is amazing because it forces the opponent to make a hard choice. Who cares if he sees the cards, it's actually beneficial sometimes, if you FoF in response to a spell with a counter in hand, and flip a counter, your opponent will probably mess up the piles because he doesn't want you to counter his spell.

Mordel
10-16-2008, 07:35 PM
As a massive fan of Daze, disrupt and force spike I still have to say that daze in this deck is silly because you have numerous tools to not lose to things your opponent drops in the first few turns of the game. I am going to have to agree with people that say "add cards that will help in the late game".

This deck totally seems similar to goyfstill...it just has some inferior card choices.

rockout
10-16-2008, 07:43 PM
Darksteel Brute functions as Mishra's Factory 5,6, and 7. A little mana intensive and seems like the slot should be taken by something with a little more, "answer me now or get buried in CA." So I suggest dark confidant or garruk.

Try Daze -3
Counterspell +1
Spellsnare +2

It's a better counter-suite that doesn't fail when you draw it past turn 4-5.

With those changes I offered, you'd basically be playing UGB landstill. Oh well, I tried to help.

HdH_Cthulhu
10-17-2008, 07:05 AM
Nevinyrral's Disk had to be added as a mid-game catch-all sweeper. Particular problem cards that I couldn't manage well against in it's absence were Blood Moon effects, Gathan Raider, Tombstalker and the Planeswalkers that have become so prevalent in the meta. The disk + darksteel brute mechanism is slow as hell but it works. The disk also gets around Counterbalance fairly well if I have counter support in hand.



You know disk doesnt destroy Planeswalkers!
Or do you mean that you could kill them with the brute mechanism after launching a Disk?

Vacrix
10-17-2008, 05:21 PM
just a thought, crop rotation is some what synergetic in this no?
mishra's factory + crucible = lots of chump blockers
wasteland + crucible = land lock on nonbasics
academy ruins + EE = board lock
crop rotation + crucible = no draw back to rotation
crop rotation + glacial chasm (if you play it) = secret tech against belcher

there may not be card space for it

and if you run volrath's stronghold, that is also a sick way to recur countered tarmogoyfs.



btw this deck doesnt look like its that hot vs. control or am i wrong?

and also you are running 9 lands that don't produce any color. haven't you run into color fixing problems? or does crucible + fetches help

FoolofaTook
10-20-2008, 07:57 PM
Darksteel Brute functions as Mishra's Factory 5,6, and 7. A little mana intensive and seems like the slot should be taken by something with a little more, "answer me now or get buried in CA." So I suggest dark confidant or garruk.

Try Daze -3
Counterspell +1
Spellsnare +2

It's a better counter-suite that doesn't fail when you draw it past turn 4-5.

With those changes I offered, you'd basically be playing UGB landstill. Oh well, I tried to help.

Darksteel Brute blocks a Goyf forever without dying at the cost of one more mana (and 1 less land drop) than recurring Mishra's so it's a bit different. It also blocks Countryside Crusher and Gathan Raiders and it's fully functional under Blood Moon effects.

I agree that in terms of inevitability it plays the same limited role that a Mishra's does but it is a better option in a lot of common situations than a Mishra's.

I'm thinking about pulling the Dazes. I'm actually thinking about replacing them with 3 Stifles because the deck has to have another out against fast combo. I'm also going to replace the Haunting Echoes. They just don't have enough of an effect in many games to justify having early on. I'm either going to replace them with a Counterspell and a Spell Snare or with 2 SDT's, not sure which though.

rockout
10-20-2008, 08:41 PM
I can see what you mean about unlimited chump-blocking.

I like the idea of running stifle. I never see stifle as a dead card in any match-up.

I really want to say keep the Haunting Echoes, but I can see dropping them for more business, such as, Tombstalker. If you add stifle, you end up running an aggro control suite (wasteland + stifle) as a control deck. I'm not 100% sure how that would work out, but it requires testing (yes, I know I just said that stifle is amazing.) Try this:

Creatures (4)

4x Tarmogoyf

Artifacts (6)

2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Nevinyrral's Disk

Enchantments (7)

4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed

Sorceries (2)

2x Haunting Echoes

Instants (17)

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
3x Stifle

Lands (24)

4x Polluted Delta
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Bayou
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard

2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Hydroblast
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Tombstalker/Thoughtseize
3x Pithing Needle

FoolofaTook
10-20-2008, 10:53 PM
That's worth a look-see. I'm running a different list that's about 6 cards off of that one (-2 Haunting Echoes, -2 Crucible of Worlds, -2 Island for +3 Counterbalance and +3 Sensei's Divining Top, yeah I know it has no basics -it's developmental.) I could probably put the CounterTop in the sideboard and then try it both ways to see how it plays.

Thanks for the suggestion.