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GGoober
10-16-2008, 08:12 PM
One of the cards that are often explored and tested is:

Erayo,Soratami Ascendant

http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/SOK/en-us/Card87599.jpg

There have been a few decks using her in Legacy testing, Extended and in Vintage. Some variants include Storm Erayo which uses the storm engine to drop an Erayo flipped early game. Erayo is now explored in the Affinity shell, with Ethersworn Canonist (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=ethersworn%20canonist). However, I feel that each of those decks are packing in too much to include something that's not in the very nature of the deck philosophy. If storm were to play Erayo flipped, why not head on to drop 8-20 Empty the Warrens token? If Affinity is packing a lock, does it mean it's not winning fast enough, contrary to the deck philosophy?

I've been tinkering with the list, and so far this list has showed promise. The deck's philosophy is simple. Control the board for the first 1-2 turns using counters (FOWs, Dazes, StPs, Chants), and flip Erayo by turn 3. This deck is different from the other Erayo decks in a sense that there's no rush to flip Erayo on turn one. It is possible with the deck's resources, as I shall list below, but it does not overextend to get the combo out. Rather, it focuses on controlling the board on the first 1-2 turns, and letting things that are not a huge threat get pass, and ensuring that Erayo stays in play to safelock the remaining game, while you finish off the pieces of the board that have escaped your control. Without further talk, here's the decklist.


// Manabase
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Plain
4 Tundra
5 Island

// Acceleration
4 Chrome Mox

// Cantrips
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

// Protection
4 Meddling Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

// Tutors
4 Enlightened Tutor

// Lock
4 Erayo, Soratami Ascendent
4 Ethersworn Canonist


Sideboard:
3 Orim's Chant
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Warmth (great side against burn)
3 Repeal (answer more threats e.g. vials, and generates a spell, or 2 spell when used on your own permanent)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Arcane Laboratory


How to play this deck:
Unlike, the typical Erayo deck, this deck has no rush to flip Erayo on turn 1-2. It is in fact not capable of doing so and can only accomplish this on turn 3. To play the deck, one tries to play as much as a landstill or threshold player. Laying down permanents such as Chrome Mox and Top in the game. The suite of 8 fetches and 4 Tops + 4 Brainstorms make the deck flexible. There are a total of 12 shuffling effects (4 Enlightened Tutor and 8 fetches). Play like the control player, and counter only spells that affect the late game if they come down early e.g. Lackeys, Bobs, first turn Hymns, Pernicious Deed, Humility. You can let all other spells through otherwise (with the exception of Goyf >:( )

Control the board as much as you can, until you have enough to play Erayo flipped. The hard lock would be Erayo + canonist, but most of the time, Erayo herself is irritating to deal with. Her ability is a triggered ability that ignores Krosan Grips, and can only be countered by Stifle and the likes. It forces your opponents to overextend, from which you would have had counters in hand to counter them anyway. Setting up for Erayo + Canonist is easier than it seems. Enlightened Tutor searches for both the lock cards. Depending on the meta, one may also feel free to maindeck 1 Arcane Laboratory (played over Rule of Law since it's blue and therefore feeds to FOW), and play 1 copy of Moat, Engineered Explosives, etc).

The deck itself has some beaters. Meddling Mage is annoying as always, and resolving one is usually very helpful in maintaining early board position.





So why play this over the other Erayo variants, or other control decks?

Pros of the deck:
-Erayo + Canonist is a hard lock, that ignores Krosan Grips and any form of removal, with the exception of established board removal e.g. Pernicious Deed/Humility.

-The deck is consistent because of cantrips, and has a strong suite of control spells that deal with most things that come in Legacy. StP is the best removal. Meddling Mage is strong as always in UW decks, and the deck packs 4 FOW, 4 Daze, and can even include 4 Spell Snares/Stifles depending on the meta, giving it reach to what Threshold has as well.

-Cantrips that make Threshold strong, also make this deck strong. The cantrips are weaker but SDT serves another purpose in the deck to build up spell counts for Erayo (tap draw during upkeep, draw SDT, play it again for 1 extra spell).

-Good combo matchup with the strong selection of control cards, and Chants in SB. Against combo, try to resolve Erayo asap, since combo decks have problems dealing with creatures such as Teeg, Moon, and not to mention an enchantment. Chain of Vapor works, but it would have been countered by Erayo, otherwise by you.

Cons of the deck:
-It's a slow "combo" although it's not meant to be a combo deck, but a control deck that aims for a hard lock. Therefore this leads to the next point, that it has bad matchups against fast decks.

-It can be overwhelmed if the wrong hand is kept, e.g. it gets overwhelmed by goblins if you can't deal with first turn lackey (any deck gets overwhelmed by a resolved lackey). It also gets overwhelmed by Dredge, and could suffer under Burn decks, although a resolved Erayo would buy time and eventually lock burn out.

-The deck is still new, so it is not optimized, and there are many other cards to be considered to make the deck better.

-Can't deal with Aether Vials. Survival will easily search out harmonic sliver and screw it up. Use repeals in sideboard when necessary.

So keep the deck philosophy in mind: Let anything that doesn't affect the late game pass through, even if they are huge threats e.g. Figure of Destiny is a huge threat late game, but this deck has answers in the form of StP. So, control the board and counter components which make the deck impossible to recover e.g. Pernicious Deed/Humility/Lackey.

Do not overextend while playing the hardlock, and when it's time to play it, do so. Once Erayo is flipped. She really can't die. Unless Krosan Grip is the second spell played. It's fine anyway since it would mean the opponent's wasted a turn killing Erayo, which can be searched out again easily in the deck. Use Meddling Mage to your advantage. Don't name spells that are popularly played. Name the spells that directly affect your lock.

Please comment, and help out with the development of this deck!

jazzykat
10-16-2008, 08:45 PM
I played against this deck type of deck last night with UGR dreadstill and it was fascinating. For the life of me I couldn't figure what it was supposed to do until very late in the game.

I think that the low CC, threshesque/fishy archetype is quite crowded at this time. With that said the deck is relatively strong. When I have encountered any deck not packing Tarmogoyf besides combo it makes me scratch my head and see if I could stick him in but I won't because the next responder will.

IMO: I think you need to pick a target metagame to trounce and then work against that. After that, I think you should round the deck out as much as possible to beat other good decks and randoms.

Otherwise people are just going to say play UGR or UGB thresh and have a really good chance vs. everything.

GGoober
10-16-2008, 10:55 PM
I was actually building this deck based about Goblins and Threshold as a benchmark. Goblins would be a challenge for this deck since resolving Erayo means nothing to them if they have either Vial or Lackey in play. Vial is in fact more scary since it goes against the deck's philosophy of locking down the board late game through Erayo's triggered ability. The way to play against goblins would be to counter vial at all times, Vial>>>Lackey against this deck.

Against threshold, the deck faces its problems too, mostly the counter-war. This deck packs better control elements than thresh, but threshold packs a much better suite of creatures, that get scary fast. Regardless, if you win the counterwar and drop Erayo flipped (which should be easier to flip due to counter-wars), you would most likely win since thresh has no answer to non-creature board permanents, and you can slowly stp off goyf.

I'll be tinkering with the deck, optimizing it to win the MU against thresh fairly confidently, and then heading to develop the sideboard against fast aggro. And on another note, this deck doesn't lose to storm at all, especially post sideboard with Chants, Chalice @0, and together with all the MD Meddling Mages, FOWs, Dazes :P

So let's try to get the thresh MU better, and then handle fast aggro :)

Jaynel
10-16-2008, 11:15 PM
I feel like Counterbalance is so much stronger than Erayo. You're already running SDT.

rufus
10-17-2008, 01:16 AM
The hard lock would be Erayo + canonist, but most of the time..

That's not really a hard lock.
Step 1: Play an Artifact Spell
Step 2: Play Removal.

One of the cute things that's possible with Canonist is that you can play eggs -> tendrils/brain freeze.

Mordel
10-17-2008, 02:05 AM
Don't get me wrong because I like the idea of the deck, but arcane lab seems better suited for a lock. The only catch of course is that lab costs one more, but it can only be killed by enchantment removal. It even dodges an EE for two, which a lot of decks try scrape by with because of goyf or whatever.
Maybe tinker with arcane lab/rule of law as a singleton slot for tutoring at least? Goblins can't gempalm a lab either which is pretty huge in my opinion...it can be granted that ideally goblins shouldn't have any goblins out really to gem your canonist, but two goblins in play and a gem in hand isn't a too far-fetched worst case scenario.

Don't get me wrong, but if you are using goblins as one of the chopping blocks for this deck, I would expect some sort of countermeasure like stifle to be MD for such an issue.

This is strictly off of the top of my head, but I think you would be best served to take a fishy sort of approach to the game so you will have a two-pronged plan that involves your opponent having to play defensively as well as looking out for your lock at the same time. You could even adapt the deck into some sort of fishy dork beats deck with three or so additional creatures in the side with good abilities and an effective cost to power ratio like grunt or something. That's just me though. You're the one that has been testing and you might have already tried the fish plan.

Aggro_zombies
10-17-2008, 02:12 AM
This is moderately interesting in this shell, but I'm pretty sure Counterbalance is just better (and a lot less prone to removal). If you're really set on Canonist-Erayo soft locks, try putting it into Affinity. Having another set of blue cards in addition to Master of Etherium and Thoughtcast would make Force better, and Canonist is better than normal in that deck simply by virtue of its artifact-ness. Also, because of all the cheap artifacts and the affinity mechanic, it's really easy to flip Erayo, and still win the game in a reasonable time frame.

Isamaru
10-17-2008, 12:04 PM
I'd just like to point out that you can't Enlighten Tutor for Erayo.

I was sad to find out that the flip side of the card is treated as completely not existing until the flip happens.

Anyway, I think Repeal should be mainboard.

sunshine
10-17-2008, 12:39 PM
Indeed Repeal might want a place in the mainboard. It combos nicely Top and helps you get to four spells. Not to mention it helps your plan of stalling in the early game.

Also it makes me sad Canonist is practically dead before you flip Erayo, yes you could still play four spells with Canonist on the board but you would need to jump through some serious hoops (this is even worse with Arcane Lab/Rule of Law).

Vacrix
10-17-2008, 12:58 PM
green seems like a sick add to this:

- living wish (gets you either combo piece. can also fetch academy ruins for the engineered explosives lock against aggro. and can fetch vexing shusher against control. and can fetch meddling mage against combo. sounds good to me.)
- worldly tutor (fetches MM against control, and either piece of your lock)
- tarmogoyf (we all know hes a strong beater. figured i'd mention it)
- gaddock teeg (improve the combo matchup more if you want)


also, lotus petal seems like it should be in here to make erayo easier to play down you know? or are you trying to resolve it on the opponents turn? (ie. wait for them to play 2 spells, then brainstorm and StP or something..)

counterbalance? if you want to run top might as well test it.

Mordenkaynen
10-18-2008, 01:29 PM
Yes, bounce is definitely for this kind of play: canonist + bounce = serious slowing down; bounce + flipped = removal (you haven't enough sweeping anyway, I think); bounce saves creatures, allows to chump-block and refresh MM for late-game spells. As an addition, you can play (tutorable) o.ring and return doubles the effect (not playable with canonist and costs ~5+ mana though).

GGoober
10-18-2008, 07:15 PM
Hi guys! Thanks for the feedback!

Man, I didn't know Enlightened tutor would not work with Erayo. If that's the case, the only consistent case would be to splash green for worldly tutors that searches both pieces, but the manabase will be a little shaky with 3 colors.

There are some pros of Erayo above counterbalance. Counterbalance is usually only great with top in play. To establish Countertop, it's not easy as well, due to countertop hate in the meta right now. Erayo is probably harder to establish, but once established, it sticks and doesn't use mana (at least for the first spell). Countertop would be mana-intensive if the opponent were to get around it by playing multiple spells. The same applies to Erayo, so both seem to face similar situations. The good thing with Erayo is she doesn't require mana, leaving the deck with more options to cast instants etc. I think it might be good to include both Erayo and Countertop in the deck, although that would be an overkill most likely :S


Perhaps a WGU shell is good, and yes, MDing repeal is great. It serves a two-way function in the deck. I'll work on the list again, and thanks for the comments guys!

A possible list, with flexibility and good control/removal kit

3 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
3 Counterbalance
2 Ethersworn Canonist

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Arcane Laboratory
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Repeal

4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory


Sideboard:
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Orim's Chant
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meddling Mage


Yes, it does look like Landstill :S But I think it's a pretty good list, aside from being a "Landstill" deck. The focus is similar, but I guess the win-con and fun is different.
And this deck has got to be the more annoying deck to play against both Erayo + Countertop or either one that gets online first lol.

Isamaru
10-18-2008, 08:45 PM
One last nitpick: Is Erayo better than putting Counterspell on an Isochron Scepter?

Play 4 Repeal if you are going to play Standstill so that you can EOT Repeal, untap and play Standstill.

I think Isochron Scepter should find its way in here, and then replace Daze with Counterspell.

Aggro_zombies
10-18-2008, 09:16 PM
Your threat density is still far too low: 6 guys*, all of them 2/2 and all of them subject to artifact removal in addition to creature removal (and Factory further being the target of Wastelands with no way to recur it). Add more creatures.

*Erayo doesn't count.

Jaynel
10-19-2008, 01:11 AM
I'll say it flat out: Counterbalance is 100% better than Erayo. They want to do the same thing, and Counterbalance will be able to do it more often. This should be a bomb Enlightened Tutor deck. I'd go like (savagely inspired by Jeff Carpenter):

Lands (18):
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den

Critters (13):
4 Meddling Mage
4 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
2 Ethersworn Cannonist

Draw/Tutor (11):
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 SDT

Counters/Removal (12):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

Trinkets and Stuff (6):
1 EE
1 Grindstone
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Dispeller's Capsule/Meekstone/Aether Spellbomb/Metagame slot

By mana cost:
0cc: 18
1cc: 18
2cc: 15
3cc: 4
4cc: 0
5cc: 4

BEB, Seal of Cleansing, more Cannonists, etc in the board.

To me, Erayo is way too far into the territory of "cool things." Counterbalance seems to be a much more efficient way of locking your opponent out of the game.

Mordel
10-19-2008, 07:18 PM
Cannonist seems almost pointless in the above list. Counter/top already pretty do the same thing that a flipped Erayo and lab effect do against the majority of decks...this leads me into my next question: if cannonist is pretty much pointless and you are going with top/balance, is a fishy-bullet approach that much better than just going with a normal ub(w) stiflenaught deck?

Vacrix
10-19-2008, 08:25 PM
lol why are you guys basically saying, well if it has blue then run counterbalance, well now that you have counterbalance run this, and then that, and then its EVENTUALLY just fucking thresh. why don't you try to be constructive? if you dont have anything to say other then basically cut the deck and run WB stiflenaught or counterbalance.dec then do something else. he isn't asking you to tell him that there is something better in the meta in those colors, he is asking for help on this build. if it is a hopeless build, then just let it alone. i agree Erayo is kinda pointless. Cannonist is still worth pursuing though. And if Erayo works then whatever. All i'm saying is that he doesn't need to hear, take these 40 cards out and insert another deck entirely. It's just not really constructive criticism.

GGoober
10-19-2008, 11:25 PM
@Vacrix: Thanks, but I take no offense :D Countertop is much stronger, in my testing running both. This build has trouble flipping Erayo, and eventually it seems that Erayo IS kind of pointless in the deck. When she came out she wasn't that great either. I think the deck has to go with a more aggro based approach with a higher threat density. In my testing, Erayo was great against thresh when flipped out early. Packing Standstill to the list was somewhat powerful: First turn Chrome Mox, Mishra's Factory, Standstill was just a killer (Except playing against Landstill lol).

I think I'll test a UWB Fish sort of list with the cards. Thanks for everyone with the criticism. I acknowledge that this is strictly worse than countertop, but when Erayo comes online, it was pretty good at control, it just has to be placed in the right shell, which I'm testing if she works in a control shell, rather than an affinity shell (I don't see the point of counters in affinity shell, which should just focus on smashing cranial platings in the opponent's face :P)

Some other problems the deck had was exactly what aggro_zombies mentioned: Too low threat density. I'll be tinkering with the deck a little, and if the deck takes another shell other than a control shell, perhaps it'l be time to start a new thread and let this one die. but I'll work with the control one for now :P I think it'll most likely be some sort of aggro-control, just like thresh, but using different cards. Thresh would use FOW, Dazes, Countertop, this would use Erayo, Standstill, FOW, Canonist, Meddling Mage, etc. It would be interesting to see if it fits against the meta out there. Thanks again guys!

Mordel
10-20-2008, 01:57 AM
I don't really care much, but I think I was one of the first people that mentioned that you should go for more of a clock. Again, it doesn't really matter that much, but I figured fish was the best approach, lol.

What kind of creature set up are you playing with?
Something like meddlers, grunts, cannonists, Erayo, tinker and Bob or something?
Uwb kind of hints at a dumptruck-ish sort of deck. Am I right in this guess?
I am kind of repeating your thoughts, but you would definitely be diluting affinity far too much by adding Erayo and cannonist on their own even.

Xero_2285
11-01-2008, 08:59 PM
Hey everyone new to the site but, I've been testing this for a little while now and it's not bad. I don't have a lot of experience with combo decks but here's a shot I took.

3x Erayo, Soratami Ascendent
3x Ethersworn Cannonist
3x Etherium Sculptor
4x Master of Etherium

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Counterbalance
2x Brain Freeze
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Standstill
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Swords to Plowshares

3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
4x Island
3x Tundra
4x Mishra's Factory

SB: Needs work.
3-4x Needle
2x Brain Freeze
2-3x BEB
3-4x Meddling Mage

Works just like Dreadstill but with different threats. Master's and Factory's compliment each other and can take care of aggro MU's. Of course Sculptor + Top x2 + Brain Freeze = gg. This is still rough though. Thoughts?