Using CounterTop

[Aethan]

I feel like there are some subtleties of using CounterTop that I'm not seeing yet, anyone know of a resource that details proper strategy?

I've recently updated my UGw Thresh decklist to one that uses Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top (CounterTop). The play of the deck seems significantly different than an older style list. Instead of burning through my draw spells (Brainstorm, Ponder, Predict) as quickly as possible I find myself holding on to them when CT is in play. I wait to use them until my opponent plays a spell that I know that I can't counter with the top 3 of my library (or spells in hand in the case of Brainstorm). I also tend to drop my fetchlands and leave them out if I don't need mana right away. I then wait until I know I can't counter a spell with my top three - then I shuffle my library and look at the top 3 with my Top.

I've been thinking that it may be best to find a 2cc and 3cc spell ASAP (depending on the matchup) and keep them as the 2nd and 3rd cards in my library with Top. That way I lock down 1-3 of my opponent's curve and save Daze/FoW for threatening spells that get through. The only downside is that I only have 2x 3cc spells in the whole deck (Oblivion Ring) - locking down 1cc and 2cc is generally pretty simple though.

[TrialByFire]

I feel like there are some subtleties of using CounterTop that I'm not seeing yet, anyone know of a resource that details proper strategy?

I've recently updated my UGw Thresh decklist to one that uses Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top (CounterTop). The play of the deck seems significantly different than an older style list. Instead of burning through my draw spells (Brainstorm, Ponder, Predict) as quickly as possible I find myself holding on to them when CT is in play. I wait to use them until my opponent plays a spell that I know that I can't counter with the top 3 of my library (or spells in hand in the case of Brainstorm). I also tend to drop my fetchlands and leave them out if I don't need mana right away. I then wait until I know I can't counter a spell with my top three - then I shuffle my library and look at the top 3 with my Top.

I've been thinking that it may be best to find a 2cc and 3cc spell ASAP (depending on the matchup) and keep them as the 2nd and 3rd cards in my library with Top. That way I lock down 1-3 of my opponent's curve and save Daze/FoW for threatening spells that get through. The only downside is that I only have 2x 3cc spells in the whole deck (Oblivion Ring) - locking down 1cc and 2cc is generally pretty simple though.


This is pretty much the basic CounterTop strategy... don't see why you would need any help.

[Aethan]

This is pretty much the basic CounterTop strategy... don't see why you would need any help.

I just get the impression playing the deck that there are some 'fancier' plays you can make with CounterTop that I'm not yet seeing.

[Versus]

The only thing I can add is knowing when to keep what cards on top of library during each part of the game. For example while playing Swan Thresh against Goblins if it's late in the game (and there is no Vial in play) I'll keep a Swan and Daze (or any 2cc) spell on top if at all possible to counter Ringleaders and Weirdings which I consider to be the biggest threats at that point. Also Force is good for SGC's and so on.

Also, not to state the obvious, but unless they are baiting you, in order to get the Top on top of your libaray to play another spell afterwards, remember that you can always counter a 1cc by tapping Top to draw.

[freakish777]

'fancier' plays

Nah. You just counter your opponent's stuff while Tarmogoyf kills them.

[Jak]

ITF probably abuses Countertop better than any deck. A lot of 1cmc and 3 cmc with Ruins to keep putting Goyfs on top of your library pretty much assures that nothing is getting through. Ruins and Stronghold may be the fancier plays you were looking for.

[Citrus-God]

ITF probably abuses Countertop better than any deck. A lot of 1cmc and 3 cmc with Ruins to keep putting Goyfs on top of your library pretty much assures that nothing is getting through. Ruins and Stronghold may be the fancier plays you were looking for.

Intuitioning for cards to shove in the yard and recur with recursion lands is bad ass.

[Finn]

I would add that, if you have a 3cc card among the top 3, keep that one on the very top since you will counter a Grip that way.

[Phoenix]

I would add that, if you have a 3cc card among the top 3, keep that one on the very top since you will counter a Grip that way.

I play UWb landstill so i haven't a lot of personal experience about that subject but i thought a lot about this situation... Let's assume you have CB+SDT+ a 3cc on top of your deck; i have a grip... Now, during your upkeep you have 2 possibilities: activate SDT ant put the 3cc in second position or don't do anything and draw the 3cc... In the first situation i can grip your CB before your draw step and after the 3cc is no longer on top, in the 2nd situation you lose the opportunity to have a 3cc on top... Being the CB player i would activate CB and put the 3cc in 2nd position while being at the other side of the table i would grip at the end of upkeep in any case (since i don't know what my opponent have on top and if he doesn't activate SDT i would simply assume he have no 3cc in the first 3 cards...). I think this is the safest way to play; the downside is that in the end i see no way to really protect a CB against a Grip unless you try to trick your opponent (something like activate SDT and then put the cards back in the same order...).
What are your opinions? Am I missing something? :cry:

[sunshine]

One thing I often do is play Ponder/Brainstorm leaving a 2cc card on the bottom of the pile and then play CB turn two. I can't tell you how many times I've countered Goyf/Survival/Bob/etc this way just because people assume its a blind CB flip. Seems pretty obvious but it was not a lot of players miss it.

[Finn]

Phoenix, I will not be help for you, so I hope you weren't addressing me. I spend my time trying to nerf dominant strategies, and never using them. So I am speaking from the perspective of seeing it across from me.

[Phoenix]

Well, i was asking everybody, not just you... :wink: i quoted you becase your reply was the starting point for my reasoning... :laugh:

[mercenarybdu]

top + balance

the top is used to rearrange the cards and if there is a match to the card attempting to be cast, you put that on top and you got a free block...if there are no matches, you better have some extra mana to boot, something to shuffle the deck (to refresh the next three), some good shuffling, because you are going to take additional gambles just to block out that spell for free...

That is how it all works to keep it all simple...

[GreenOne]

Against combo, assure that you have a 3cc on top before your EOT step. Also remember to play more than 1 CB if you got it. In this case the opponene will have to Grip/Wipe Away both of them.

[Forbiddian]

top + balance

the top is used to rearrange the cards and if there is a match to the card attempting to be cast, you put that on top and you got a free block...if there are no matches, you better have some extra mana to boot, something to shuffle the deck (to refresh the next three), some good shuffling, because you are going to take additional gambles just to block out that spell for free...

That is how it all works to keep it all simple...

You forgot to explain that it's important to have a way to generate UU during your mainphase, otherwise it's difficult to get Counterbalance into play.

... *facepalm*

[mercenarybdu]

@Forbiddian

I only talked about how it all works given that both pieces are already in play. He asked mainly about "how does it work?"

[Jak]

@Forbiddian

I only talked about how it all works given that both pieces are already in play. He asked mainly about "how does it work?"

Oh dang! Mercenary just broke the format!

[Aethan]

I don't think there is a iron-clad way to protect your CB from a Krosan Grip. Even if you have a Sylvan Library in play and a 3cc card on top of your library you can't do it (despite what is claimed in http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11598). The reason is that "You always resolve your normal draw before this ability because the normal draw is resolved before anything is placed on the stack." [D'Angelo 2003/12/13] So, if you leave the 3cc on top and draw it during your draw step SL will trigger and your opponent can Grip your CB before SL's ability resolves. If you use SDT to rearrange your top 3 and put your 3cc into the 2nd spot during your upkeep step your opponent can just grip the CB after SDT's ability resolves.

So there is no way to prevent a Grip as long as we always use SDT's ability to put the 3cc into the 2nd slot during our upkeep. If you are absolutely certain that your opponent has a Grip and intends to use it after you activate your SDT then you can be absolutely certain to counter it. Simply activate SDT, leave the cards in the same order and then use the 3cc to counter the Grip.

But what if you aren't certain your opponent has a Grip and you aren't certain that he intends to use it this turn? Well, things get more complicated. Suppose you estimate that opponent has a 50% likelihood of having and using a Grip. You decide to flip a coin to decide whether to use SDT to move the 3cc card or not. 25% of the time you will choose not to move the 3cc and your opponent will use Grip and it will get countered. 25% of the time you will choose not to move the 3cc and your opponent will not use a Grip and you will draw the 3cc, thereby losing the opportunity to counter the Grip on the next turn (unless you have a brainstorm). 25% of the time you will choose to move the 3cc and your opponent will successfully Grip your CB. 25% of the time you will move the 3cc and your opponent will not use the Grip. So overall you have a 25% chance to counter the grip (very good), a 25% chance of drawing your 3cc instead of countering something with it (neither good nor bad if the card has another use, which it should), a 25% chance to lose your CB (bad, but not a disaster), and a 25% chance of keeping your 3cc on top after your draw and your CB in play (good). *whew*

Going a different way: If you again estimate your opponent has a 50% chance of playing a grip and simply choose to activate SDT and always leave the 3cc on top then you will counter the Grip 50% of the time (very good) and draw the 3cc without having countered the Grip 50% of the time (neutral).

Overall, both these scenarios have a favorable outcome. This is because losing a CB isn't a tragedy - if you can't win a game when you lose one CB you are doing something wrong. This analysis, however, ignores one simple fact: Krosan Grip requires 3 mana to cast, of which 1 mana must be green. So, in practical use, you should never get fancy with your SDT during your upkeep if your opponent doesn't have the mana to cast a Grip. If your opponent has the mana free and runs a deck with Grips, then I would be strongly inclined to use the SDT but leave the 3cc on top. This is a judgment call that has more to do with reading players and their intentions than mathematics. If they have the mana free but you aren't sure of their intentions/hand, then randomize the use of your SDT.

[Happy Gilmore]

The best way to protect yourself against KG is playing multiple CBs. Dont forget that A land counters Spells costing :0:, and make sure you know how to use top effectively. Ie:

know how to make this play:

look at the top 3, Draw a card before passing priority. This will put the top card in your hand, then put SDT on top, then looks at the top three. This will give you the opportunity to put a different card on top to reveal with CB. There are few but instances where this is relevant but you need to know it to win at times.

[Aethan]

Do you mean:
1. Activate SDT's rearrangement ability.
2. Draw.
3. Activate SDT's rearrangement ability.
4. Respond to activating SDT's rearrangement ability by activating its draw ability.
5. Place SDT on top and draw.
6. Rearrange the top 3.

I use this play sometimes when I'm desperately digging for answers. I will also use a fetch or Ponder to shuffle between steps 4 and 5.


The best way to protect yourself against KG is playing multiple CBs. Dont forget that A land counters Spells costing :0:, and make sure you know how to use top effectively. Ie:

know how to make this play:

look at the top 3, Draw a card before passing priority. This will put the top card in your hand, then put SDT on top, then looks at the top three. This will give you the opportunity to put a different card on top to reveal with CB. There are few but instances where this is relevant but you need to know it to win at times.