[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[lavafrogg]

Grats everyone on DTB status. This is a cool of a DTB set as he have had in a long time.

[Zombie]

Grats everyone on DTB status. This is a cool of a DTB set as he have had in a long time.

Could stand to have less nigh-indestructible merfolk and griseltards, imo.

[Griselpuff]

Pretty sure every time I don't play this deck I'm giving away free money. I took a break from this deck and have been playing UW TrueBlade, Storm, Dredge, MUD and Elves. I got tired of not dominating, so I switched back to TA with the same list I had from SCG Providence and promptly went 6-2 at a tournament, winning a Tundra (UL), a FoW and a Thoughtseize. :smile::laugh:

[Zirath]

Thinking about going back to this deck. Is there a clear advantage of the blue centric lists that have popped up a little bit (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=6050&d=235024) compared to the traditional UB heavy list? How important are Hymn to Tourach and Tombstalker compared to playing a less black heavy build? I understand it in theory but I would like opinions.

[Grand Superior]

I wanted the True-Name Nemesis list to be good, but I think that Team America with TNN just lacks punch. You gain an evasive beater/eternal wall and less susceptibility as a whole to Rest in Peace and Submerge, but you lose the raw power of Hymn to Tourach (Thoughtseize is far too polite for what this deck wants to be doing), Tombstalker (costs less mana than TNN, is virtually just as evasive, dodges Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt, and has +2 power) and Liliana of the Veil (well, she's Lily 2.0). Akatsuki wrote a lot about this in his tournament report on Channel Fireball.

I do think that the TNN version can shine in a meta that's heavier on Tundra decks, but I think it's weaker than traditional Team America for the most part.

[Dragonslayer_90]

What Gransuperior said. Hymn to Tourach often gives this deck the explosive starts that allow it to just completely reck opponents sometimes. Tombstalker provides the deck with a hard to kill finisher after they've dealt with your preceding threats. In theory at least I would think the Nemeseize version is better against Trueblade decks in general, but I have beaten them preboard with the Hymnstalker version. Can be tough but not impossible. Then postboard those match ups become at least even, sometimes in my favor depending on what I get going in the early game. I tried the Nemeseize version for a little though. The biggest problem I noticed was that even though True-Name is probably a better card than Tombstalker in general, the former can sometimes cost too much since he still is a three-drop whereas Tombstalker is effectively a lategame two drop. Also, playing True-Name Nemesis makes it awkward to play golgari charm, one of the best sb cards we are playing at the moment. Heck, I've even been main decking one to much success.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Went 6-0 for 1st/62 or so today.

2-0 against Elves (Disfigure + Charm is sooo good right now, 2 Cages help as well)
2-0 against BG Reanimator (some brew including Varolz and reanimation package)
2-0 against Deathlade
2-1 against 12Post
2-1 against Can Thresh
2-0 against Shardless

Deck is a Blast to play. Toyed around with some other decks but this one is still the very best ;)

SB was nothing special except 2 JtMs and 1 Loam found their way in, Loam might stay, Jace rather not.

[Myelectronicdays]

Went 6-0 for 1st/62 or so today.

2-0 against Elves (Disfigure + Charm is sooo good right now, 2 Cages help as well)
2-0 against BG Reanimator (some brew including Varolz and reanimation package)
2-0 against Deathlade
2-1 against 12Post
2-1 against Can Thresh
2-0 against Shardless

Deck is a Blast to play. Toyed around with some other decks but this one is still the very best ;)

SB was nothing special except 2 JtMs and 1 Loam found their way in, Loam might stay, Jace rather not.

what matches did you find yourself siding in loam? been curious myself.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

what matches did you find yourself siding in loam? been curious myself.

12 Post, just to add another angle of locking them out, Waste + Loam is obviously insane.

Canadian to fight their Wastelands, especially if they have Loam theirselves and for Shardless and Deathblade, where i do side in the 2 Jaces, as Loam + Jace is really sick together.

[Cire_dk]

Gratz to blackstardeceiver. I did not do very well today.
Aggro pox draw
Sneak and show 1-2
Sneak and show 1-2 but got myself to blame for very bad misplay on timing Lili
Death Blade 2-1
Death & Taxes 2-0
Elves 0-2
Burn 0-2 but I had to mull to 4!

I like the deck a lot. Against combo it can be weak if your draws are not perfect. Did not use flusterstorm and will side 2 Thought seize next time.
Best card in the deck Sylvan library because it gives so much card advantage.
Worst card : flusterstorm in sb

Still enjoyed playing the deck and would not change maindeck.

[Zirath]

I wanted the True-Name Nemesis list to be good, but I think that Team America with TNN just lacks punch. You gain an evasive beater/eternal wall and less susceptibility as a whole to Rest in Peace and Submerge, but you lose the raw power of Hymn to Tourach (Thoughtseize is far too polite for what this deck wants to be doing), Tombstalker (costs less mana than TNN, is virtually just as evasive, dodges Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt, and has +2 power) and Liliana of the Veil (well, she's Lily 2.0). Akatsuki wrote a lot about this in his tournament report on Channel Fireball.

I do think that the TNN version can shine in a meta that's heavier on Tundra decks, but I think it's weaker than traditional Team America for the most part.

That's similar to how I felt but I was also considering changing those lists. Removing Thoughtseize from the main deck, pick up the 20th land, 2 Jace and 4 Stifle. Is this deviating too far away from Team at that point? I'm more likely going to go towards the traditional UB list (I really like Tombstalker) but I am just thinking about options.

[Neffy]

Went 6-0 for 1st/62 or so today.

2-0 against Elves (Disfigure + Charm is sooo good right now, 2 Cages help as well)
2-0 against BG Reanimator (some brew including Varolz and reanimation package)
2-0 against Deathlade
2-1 against 12Post
2-1 against Can Thresh
2-0 against Shardless

Deck is a Blast to play. Toyed around with some other decks but this one is still the very best ;)

SB was nothing special except 2 JtMs and 1 Loam found their way in, Loam might stay, Jace rather not.

Will you write your SB please? I've also been wondering if 2xcage is the way to go :)

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Will you write your SB please? I've also been wondering if 2xcage is the way to go :)

Ooops, did not even notice i forgot to post my list :D

Maindeck is standard setup with 1 Liliana 1 Sylvan Library

SB:

2 Grafdiggers Cage
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Life from the Loam


Cards i do consider in place of Jace and Loam are Nullrod, Maelstrom Pulse, Torpor Orb (highly meta dependent) or simply Thoughtseize.

[Asthereal]

Played this deck yesterday at the Dutch Legacy Championships, and went 3-3-1 after going 3-0-1.
I'll write a report soon, but I must say I really love this deck! It feels really strong.
Imperial Painter is a bitch though. :rolleyes:

[Cire_dk]

Ooops, did not even notice i forgot to post my list :D

Maindeck is standard setup with 1 Liliana 1 Sylvan Library

SB:

2 Grafdiggers Cage
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Life from the Loam


Cards i do consider in place of Jace and Loam are Nullrod, Maelstrom Pulse, Torpor Orb (highly meta dependent) or simply Thoughtseize.


I think if you consider your bad matchups Thoughtseize and Pulse are the most versatile cards against a wide range of decks. That's why my decision to try flusterstorm instead of thoughtseize was a bad one. Especially in the sneak and show match ups I would have loved thoughtseize because you can disrupt combo from turn 1 onwards and that is what works best in most cases.

[Kotowari]

Quick report from double GPT weekend - unfortunatelly turnout was not great, but the meta was quite diverse. I played standard list with 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Liliana and following sb:

3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstorm Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Creeping Tar Pit

GPT1
2-0 DarkMaverick
2-0 Dredge
1-2 BUG Delver (with Jace and Loam in sb)
2-0 GB Depths
1-2 Sneak and Show

Top4
2-0 Dark Maverick
Split with BUG Delver

GPT2
2-0 Junk
0-2 RUG Delver
2-1 Imperial Painter
2-1 Punishing Jund
1-2 OmniTell

Top4
2-1 OmniTell
Split with Jund

Few thoughts:
- Fair creature matchups are quite easy, we have monstrous sideboard to bring for games 2 and 3
- Dredge felt really winnable with only 1 dedicated gy hate in the sb, but i would really prefer at least 1 surgical extraction to bring against random cards which are not affected by cage, especially punishing fire and loams
- Vs other delver decks lilianas and disfigures are great, but we need to have long game gameplan too: i feel 1 loam would be great there, but needs more testing. Or just drop turn 4-5 unanswered tombstalker - this works fine too. Also - needs to play really tight to win mirrors (i missplayed quite few times...)
- I really liked split between thoughtseizes and spell pierces in the sideboard. You bring both against combo decks, and against fair decks when sideboarding out 4 FoW/4 daze i often sideboarded in 2 spell pierces to have answers for opposing planewalkers/removal/discard (lilianas, swords, hymns, gsz)
- Good that not many decks play blood moon, it's really hard to deal with - against painter i lost a game around 15th turn when his 5th (afair) moon effect resolved on empty board
- Maelstorm pulse did his job when drawn, but it was just a sorcery speed, 1 mana more expensive abrupt decay
- Sylvan library often feels like cheating, i would not play without it in the maindeck. It was often drawing 2-3 extra cards, filtering draws with fetchlands, flipping delvers, searching for answers and eating decays instead of my threats
- Vendilion clique was the most sideboarded in cards the whole weekend, yet i still think it's place is in the sideboard - maindeck is just too good

If i had to play tomorrow i would swap -1 pulse +1 surgical in the sideboard. Besides that the deck felt great!

[wcm8]

Played in a small tournament this past weekend, going 3-1-1 with the current standard list.

I beat UWr Countertop, Dredge, and UB Tezzerator. My loss was to Elves (and eventual tournament winner), which came down to a game 3 wherein my opponent topdecked what I believe was one of the few outs he had. I also ID'd with a friend playing URW Delver in the last round, hoping to have us both draw into the top 4 rather than definitely knocking one of us out (like I said, small turnout this time due to bad weather -- only 13 players). Unfortunately I got 5th due to the results of the last round, while my friend did make it there.

I think a second Grafdigger's Cage might be nice to have, as even with all of the removal Elves is still a rough matchup. Natural Order -> Craterhoof STILL kills you if they only have 2 creatures on board, so you're never really *safe* in a matchup like this. I also made an error sideboarding in the second game, as I took out Abrupt Decay and left in Hymn to Tourach thinking that I had "enough removal". Granted, a 2cmc removal isn't that stellar, but it IS better than discard against a deck that drops its hand quickly. You also won't lose to Scavenging Ooze with a Gaea's Cradle like I did. Lesson learned.

I also see that TA is back to where it belongs as a DTB. Which is sort of bad as players won't be able to ignore it as often -- generally when you see articles about the Delver Archetype, you only hear about RUG, UWR, and occasionally Grixis or straight UR. BUG for whatever reason is usually ignored. It is a HUGE advantage to have your opponent assume you're playing Cascade, and then run into Daze and/or Spell Pierce.

[Asthereal]

Here's my report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27258-Team-America-Dutch-Legacy-Championships-2013&p=774541#post774541

I went 3-3-1, not great, but the deck didn't fail me. That was the other way around. :wink:

Anyway, I chose to play stock with 2x Liliana instead of 1x Lily and 1x Sylvan, because I expected a LOT of combo, and Lily is still very nice against fair decks. Didn't see that much combo though.

My sideboard was:
3x Disfigure
3x Golgari Charm
3x Spell Pierce
2x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Vendilion Clique

In retrospect I should have played :
Main +1 Sylvan, -1 Lily
Side -2 Surgical, +1 Lily, +1 Grafdigger

Didn't really miss the one-of Pulse. Having 3x Pierce was nice, used them quite a lot actually, even though I didn't encouter much combo.

[KobeBryan]

i didn't do so great either...lost to jund and then affinity the next round.

going 0-2 from the start makes u feel shitty.

[Purgatory]

Played TA in a small local today. Was going to play RUG, but decided at the last moment to go for TA instead, and I'm not sorry about that.

Played the stock list with a Sylvan Library and a Dismember in the flex slots. Both performed really well. My manabase was worse than usual though, since own only 1 Bayou and no Verdant Catacombs, so I had to replace those with a Flooded Strand and another Tropical. It didn't come up though, thankfully.

My SB was this:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
3 Disfigure
1 Life from the Loam
2 Golgari Charm
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Winter Orb

My matches were:

R1: Bye. I don't like getting byes when playing in small monday night tournaments, since I was there to play magic. One of the matches went to time as well, so I had to wait a long time for the second round to start.

R2: Imperial Painter (2-1). In the first game, I respond to two Blood Moons with the words "Tap and Underground Sea for B tap a Tropical for G". I win on the back of a 6/7 Goyf. I lose game two against the awful level-up dude, which put me to shame. I had only two elves in play, no Decays despite several Brainstorms/Ponders. I win game 3 quite easily through two 6/7 Goyfs.

R3: UWr RiP-Miracles (2-0). Both games are grindy as all hell, but I win game one after not over-committing to the board and forcing him to Terminus single Goyfs etc. He almost stabilizes on 6 life when he lands a Jace against my lone 6/7 Goyf, but three turns later he still hasn't found an out to my creatures. In the second game, I bait him with Vendilion Clique and slam Winter Orb when he's tapped out with CB+Top in play. I land a Tombstalker a couple of turns later and Force his only response, a Plow I think.

R4: WBg Deadguy Deathblade (2-1). His deck is homebrew-ish, but it has several things I'd rather not see, discard, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, Deathrite Shaman, Lingering Souls, Liliana etc. etc. We also always face each other in tournaments, and he usually wins, his deck is quite tuned to beat Delver, and he's used to play against them. He's at 2-0-1, I'm the only one undefeated and whoever wins gets the prize. I lose game one to double-Deathrite and Lingering Souls, and I win game two with big Goyfs and a Tombstalker. I boarded Disfigure which is the bomb against his deck, since it literally kills every creature he plays, and Golgari Charm is great too, killing Spirit tokens, Bob, active Mothers etc. In game three, he anti-climactically mulligans to five, but proceeds to draw triple-Wasteland against my slow hand. I draw enough lands to fill the gaps, however, and Team America'd all over him.


Only nine people showed up (but hey, monday night), but I took first and left with a Sword of Feast and Famine. The deck felt awesome, the maindeck was quite strong aside from the faulty manabase, although I think I'll test Lilly instead of Dismember.

[Korvo]

@Purgatory: Nice Report. My Question: against what MUs do you board Winter Orb?

[Purgatory]

@Purgatory: Nice Report. My Question: against what MUs do you board Winter Orb?

Yesterday I only boarded it against Miracles, where it is nuts. I also board it against Jund, and any random grindy and mana-hungry midrange or control deck.

[kingsey]

I've been running winter orb for about a year now. Correct on the miracles and mid range match ups. It's amazing and keeps your dazes live. I also run stifle in my list so I'm heavy on mana denial. It's an amazing card.

[ZimAshe]

Hi all, I was looking for a BUG control forum and couldn't seem to find one other than Team America and Shardless Control. Does one exist?

[lavafrogg]

Hi all, I was looking for a BUG control forum and couldn't seem to find one other than Team America and Shardless Control. Does one exist?

There are a couple on pages 3 and 4 of established.

[ZimAshe]

There are a couple on pages 3 and 4 of established.

Thanks LavaFrog!

[Dragonslayer_90]

Still playing this deck. I feel unbeatable with it unless I make a fatal misplay or I play against a deck I don't know that well (like Tin Fins). I am having the hardest time with Elves recently though. Preboard seems almost impossible. Postboard is a little more even but I still struggle. What should be my gameplan with this deck agaist Combo Elves? Typically I've gone the route of removal, counters, some permanent based hate like cage and sometimes pithing needle, and a Vendilion Clique. Typically I've been siding out dazes on the draw (for spell pierces), Lilis, hymns, and a goyf. Also, just got done talking to an Elves player on cockatrice who says discard is better against elves than counters, which makes me wonder if I should keep my hymns postboard. Thoughts?

[danyul]

What does your SB look like? I would definitely bring in Hymns. Lili can sometimes be underwhelming, but she is great at keeping your lead once you get there. Do you have Golgari Charms in your SB? What is your MD removal package? Are you running Disfigure?

[KobeBryan]

Still playing this deck. I feel unbeatable with it unless I make a fatal misplay or I play against a deck I don't know that well (like Tin Fins). I am having the hardest time with Elves recently though. Preboard seems almost impossible. Postboard is a little more even but I still struggle. What should be my gameplan with this deck agaist Combo Elves? Typically I've gone the route of removal, counters, some permanent based hate like cage and sometimes pithing needle, and a Vendilion Clique. Typically I've been siding out dazes on the draw (for spell pierces), Lilis, hymns, and a goyf. Also, just got done talking to an Elves player on cockatrice who says discard is better against elves than counters, which makes me wonder if I should keep my hymns postboard. Thoughts?

I take out 4 daze 2 stalkers 1 decay 1 hymn. In pithing needle 3 charms 3 disfigure 1 cage

Reason needle stops symbiote cage stops gsz. Rest is self explanatory

[Dragonslayer_90]

What does your SB look like? I would definitely bring in Hymns. Lili can sometimes be underwhelming, but she is great at keeping your lead once you get there. Do you have Golgari Charms in your SB? What is your MD removal package? Are you running Disfigure?

I play a stock list with 2 Lili's in the flex slots so I have 4 Hymns main deck. Here's the sb I've been playing with recently:

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit

I keep some counterspells in addition to force of will because the blue count becomes sketchy if you cut all four dazes. So usually I will have some number of pierces or dazes in the deck postboard, depending if I'm on the play or draw.

EDIT: In regards to my maindeck removal package, it's only 4 Abrupt Decay and 2 Lilianas, typically not good enough to keep Elves from flooding the board.


I take out 4 daze 2 stalkers 1 decay 1 hymn. In pithing needle 3 charms 3 disfigure 1 cage

Reason needle stops symbiote cage stops gsz. Rest is self explanatory

Seems reasonable. I should probably bring in needle mostly for symbiote. How does the match-up feel once you've boarded?

[Razorwynd]

To all those talking about pithing needle, what are you thoughts about running phyrexian revoker instead? The downside is that you can not name lands (wasteland, karakas, tarpit etc), the plus is that you can name mana abilities like (LED, birchlore rangers). It attacks, which is nice in Storm and show and tell based combo matchups (I side 2 in over 2 tarmogoyf as tarmo rarely has more than three power anyway), but it also dies to swords against miracles or and our own golgari charms against elves and DnT.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I would seem to imagine that it is largely a meta call… I don't think one is vastly superior to another, thought I was hoping to get some additional thoughts in the issue

[somethingdotdotdot]

Versus combo, revoker is better because he represents another clock and can shut off led/heritage/birchlore

Versus control, needle is better because its harder to remove. Most non-bg decks only have about 2-3 postboard answers to artifacts/enchantments. Vs something like blade or miracles, needle is basically "turn off all instances of said card for the game".

[deviant]

Having been Julians punching bag when he tested for BoM has been unsurprisingly usefull after elves became a real deck. It is indeed one of TA's worst mu's.
Game one your best chance to win is delver and ts beats. Hope they stumble and beat the living shit out of their pointy ears. You are very ill-equipped to win any real game of magic here, instead just hope they have one of the extremes of a draw: the slow grind you out (you can race this in air) or the T3 kill (if they go for it and you counter maybe you. An race in air.
Notice how tarmogoyf matches out poorly against the other kind of beatable draw.
Obviously real gameplay is far from this simple but this should give you an idea of how the games you win play out.

Postboard however is totally different. They bring in decays to answer not only delver but cage - which is an insanely good card against them here as it stops their 2 best cards in the mu. These games are one of the grindiest in the format. Playing against cb-miracles is not this grindy:D
The nature of these games makes hymn mediocre. Julian is very familiar with the feeling of having both NO targets stranded in his hand, and in the champs I got to spread this joy to another elf player too. The games are simply long enough for them to draw these and that makes NO, their best weapon, an almost complete blank.

Make no mistake, you cannot give them a single turn to NO you out. This means sometimes having to let gsz resolve in the early game if you are holding f.e only 1 pierce for NO. Always assume they are holding cradle. Always be wary of their mana count and what they can do with it. NO with 2 floating is very real danger in the early midgame to the late midgame. Lategame, they are propably holding craterhoof. Try to not let them cast it.

Most lists only run 2 bayou. If you get to waste both their drs becomes a lot worse (usually only 1 birchlore after that for B mana). This can be key in long games.
Nettle beatz is a very real thing. This and drs machine gun gets you more often than you think.

All in all, this is one of the most skill intensive mu's atm (imo). Thus one you should playtest extensively. Elves is so interactive and complicated that there are no always correct lines.

[Dragonslayer_90]

@Deviant: I concur with most of what you have said. Are you saying hymn is bad against them because the games tend to go long or is it also because they can recover from it easily if they have Wirewood Symbiote+Elvish Visionary combo? I think I will just have to put in practice games against the deck like you said, but will playing elves myself help in learning how to play against it?

[deviant]

Hymn is "bad" because of all those factors combined. They can recover from it, it tends to not do enough, if you play hymn and they hit you with a nettle and quirion and drain 4 with drs you might already be too far behind.
There is also the issue of card quantity (after the hymns you propably are already shaving some goyfs) and hymn being a bad topdeck later on.
Elves have tremendous staying power, and having dead draws in the deck can easily cost us the lategame.

[LEH]

Baring in mind I'm generally a Jund player, but I find Hymns tend to be good when they use Wirewood Symbiote effects in response to removal. Granted it's essentially 2:1ing yourself (sometimes) but it does get rid of their key cards.

[deviant]

Baring in mind I'm generally a Jund player, but I find Hymns tend to be good when they use Wirewood Symbiote effects in response to removal. Granted it's essentially 2:1ing yourself (sometimes) but it does get rid of their key cards.

May I advice experimenting with targeting the symbiote instead of creatures not named "wirewood symbiote" when there is one such insect on the battlefield?

[danyul]

I play a stock list with 2 Lili's in the flex slots so I have 4 Hymns main deck. Here's the sb I've been playing with recently:

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit

I keep some counterspells in addition to force of will because the blue count becomes sketchy if you cut all four dazes. So usually I will have some number of pierces or dazes in the deck postboard, depending if I'm on the play or draw.

EDIT: In regards to my maindeck removal package, it's only 4 Abrupt Decay and 2 Lilianas, typically not good enough to keep Elves from flooding the board.


Interesting. I think your SB looks well equipped to handle the matchup. Golgari Charm, Disfigure, and Grafdigger's Cage are all very good here. You might actually think about bringing in V.Clique. I have seen that card used to great effect against Elves. Granted, it's a bit of a nonbo with G.Charm.


Having been Julians punching bag when he tested for BoM has been unsurprisingly usefull after elves became a real deck. It is indeed one of TA's worst mu's.


I must say, I find this surprising. I didn't know the matchup was so bad. But I don't primarily play TA at all. I just had it built to mess around with. Keep in mind, you were testing against the Lieutenant of Llanowar, Julian. He isn't your average Elves player. And your logic IRT Hymn makes perfect sense.

[wcm8]

Against Elves, I SB thusly:

-4 Hymn
-4 Daze
-2-3 Tarmogoyf (worst creature in this matchup, lack of evasion means he hardly EVER connects, especially once they get that irritating insect creature out)

+3 Golgari Charm
+3/4 Disfigure (my current list has 2 Lili MD, and 4 Disfigure in the SB)
+1/2 Grafdigger's Cage (however many you have)
+1 Vendilion Clique

And then whatever else you may have. Tombstalker, Delvers, and Clique will be the primary damage dealers, with DRS also pinging here and there. The strategy is basically to just slow them down by killing things on sight, and sandbag a FoW for their Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature or GSZ. Keep in mind they are bringing in 1-2 Scavening Ooze, so you need to hold onto Abrupt Decay for those.

Given how commen Elves and DNT seem to be lately, it might be worthwhile to bring back Darkblast and/or Engineered Plague.

[Cire_dk]

Against Elves, I SB thusly:

-4 Hymn
-4 Daze
-2-3 Tarmogoyf (worst creature in this matchup, lack of evasion means he hardly EVER connects, especially once they get that irritating insect creature out)

+3 Golgari Charm
+3/4 Disfigure (my current list has 2 Lili MD, and 4 Disfigure in the SB)
+1/2 Grafdigger's Cage (however many you have)
+1 Vendilion Clique

And then whatever else you may have. Tombstalker, Delvers, and Clique will be the primary damage dealers, with DRS also pinging here and there. The strategy is basically to just slow them down by killing things on sight, and sandbag a FoW for their Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature or GSZ. Keep in mind they are bringing in 1-2 Scavening Ooze, so you need to hold onto Abrupt Decay for those.

Given how commen Elves and DNT seem to be lately, it might be worthwhile to bring back Darkblast and/or Engineered Plague.

I agree with your comments.

I think darkblast could be very good because it also helps an early casting of tombstalker. Engineered plaque is great but quite expensive. Darkblast has a target from turn 1 onwards.

[LEH]

May I advice experimenting with targeting the symbiote instead of creatures not named "wirewood symbiote" when there is one such insect on the battlefield?

I agree in general, if you have multiple removal spells, but if you know that you need to get rid one of their key creature(s) to stop them comboing the next turn, it's advisable to not hit Symbiote and instead get them to bounce the primary threat in order to get them to discard it via hymn, etc.

[kingsey]

I anyone running stifles main deck?

I cut the hymns down to 3, the 2 flex spots normally library and lilly and go to 19 vs 20 land. Same as RUG.

This gives you the 4 slots needed.

[KobeBryan]

I anyone running stifles main deck?

I cut the hymns down to 3, the 2 flex spots normally library and lilly and go to 19 vs 20 land. Same as RUG.

This gives you the 4 slots needed.


I have and i've been liking it.

I actually took out a ponder for a sylvan library because it gives you the draws so much better if you are in a rut compared to an extra ponder.

[Dia_Bot]

@ Kinsley and KobeBryan: How are you liking the stifles?
I've loved them in RUG but our curve is a little bit higher so I'm still undecided if it is best option for our deck (we do run DRS so this may negate the higher curve).

[Purgatory]

Dan can beat it. XD

I'm 1-1 myself. I think the match-up is bad, but I think that deck is terrible so when it comes up, you can still win when they Blood Moon into a Daze etc. Post-board if you have a DRS, just leave it and a land untapped and your decays/charms/disfigures should take care of their moon effects.

I'm 3-0 vs Mono-Red Imperial Painter in a tournament setting, but I haven't played much TA lately. As far as I see it, the match-up is far from unwinnable, even if one can explain my result with variance. Tarmogoyf is a freaking beast in the match-up, it's quite easily a 6/7 (dead Painter and Blood Moon plus the usual stuff), which puts him on a 3-turn clock or sometimes even 2 if you have an Elf in play or he's been greedy with Ancient Tomb.

Hymn is a boss vs them too, since their only way to generate card advantage is through recruiter.

[mike1987]

I know this had been said a lot of times but I just can't seem to win RUG with this deck(maybe i am a lousy player or bad at this deck) Their mana denial plan is stronger than ours, my hymns, lands seldom hit play or stay for long. Or is my cantripping bad?

[Grand Superior]

I actually find that our deck stacks up quite well against RUG. 20 lands to their 18 means that you're more likely to get mana sources while still having Wasteland pressure, Deathrite Shaman steadily hoses Nimble Mongoose, you actually have a trump to their Tarmogoyfs in Abrupt Decay, and they can't profitably deal with Tombstalker preboard (postboard, well, Submerge renders it uncastable). Disfigure is great postboard, and Liliana is just a nightmare for them to deal with if you can get one to stick.

Delver matchups are always quite swingy because tempo mirrors depend so much on how the draws work out but I feel like Team America is favoured.

[KobeBryan]

i don't think we need to put golgari charms anymore.

the way i'm testing, people board out their 2-3 TNN in an attempt to next level us. The same way we next level people who bring in Rest in peace.

We should try to next level people with the TNN plan because at this time, the matchup against RUW is difficult because they bring in RIP and board out TNN, which makes several of our cards useless. Of course we can use golgari charm for enchantments, but its not as useful as it is in practice.

[deviant]

i don't think we need to put golgari charms anymore.

the way i'm testing, people board out their 2-3 TNN in an attempt to next level us. The same way we next level people who bring in Rest in peace.

We should try to next level people with the TNN plan because at this time, the matchup against RUW is difficult because they bring in RIP and board out TNN, which makes several of our cards useless. Of course we can use golgari charm for enchantments, but its not as useful as it is in practice.

I think you may be reading too much into this "next leveling" thing.
Not only makes siding out tnn our tarmogoyfs better, it is not making our charms significantly worse as RiP still needs to die on sight and it still regenerages delvers and drs from bolts if need be.

If they want to side out tnn and not bring in rip to make charms worse, I'll take it.
I don't see this happening though?

The card is also used in other mu's as well. Had tnn not seen print I think I'd still play 1-2.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I concur with Deviant. Rest in Peace is most certainly coming in against us unless for some reason they don't have it in their board. Having 2-3 Golgari Charm takes pressure off Abrupt Decay to kill the pesky enchantment so that we can use the latter to kill Delver and SFM in the UWR matchup. Plus, it seems bad to board out threats in an already rather threat light deck (most UWR lists only play 10 creatures total md so they're going down to 8 boarding out their md TNNs). So I say let people play badly and still bring the charm in since it's so flexible in what it can do.

[KobeBryan]

I concur with Deviant. Rest in Peace is most certainly coming in against us unless for some reason they don't have it in their board. Having 2-3 Golgari Charm takes pressure off Abrupt Decay to kill the pesky enchantment so that we can use the latter to kill Delver and SFM in the UWR matchup. Plus, it seems bad to board out threats in an already rather threat light deck (most UWR lists only play 10 creatures total md so they're going down to 8 boarding out their md TNNs). So I say let people play badly and still bring the charm in since it's so flexible in what it can do.


I've been losing to ruw quite a bit. I say it's a bad matchup. How do you guys feel

[Dragonslayer_90]

I've been losing to ruw quite a bit. I say it's a bad matchup. How do you guys feel

I say it's pretty even, like 50-50 honestly. I don't lose to them or beat them all the time. If I play tightly and don't get too unlucky with draws I can beat them.

[deviant]

Imo, the mu slightly favors TA.
Uwr has less navigation room in their gameplan in this mu. In TA side you can adjust yours a lot more, depending on the kind of draw you/him are having.
Unless I get a delver draw, my concerns are primarily in not dying.

Batterskull is their only lategame, try to snatch that with discard / save pulse for it.

Kill delvers and sfm on sight, latter no longer a priority if skull is gone.

Try to keep a charm or liliana in reserve for tnn.

Use your wastelands in their white sources, unless you have a delver draw and feel like you can push the advantage.
Don't be too eager to get on board, unless they pressure you to. If they are not deploying threats they are more vulnerable to hymn, try to capitalize and protect your threats from stops.

Never fall behind on board, they are very good at pushing their advantage - easy to say, I know.

I sb 4 fow 4 daze 2 stalker 0-1 bayou out, with 3 charms 3 disfigure 1 pulse 1 vendilion 1 liliana 0-1 tar pit 1/2 seize coming in.
I have found this to be a good base, adjusting to how they fetch with sfm, use their bolts, how they use their wastelands, which color they go after etc.

[KobeBryan]

Imo, the mu slightly favors TA.
Uwr has less navigation room in their gameplan in this mu. In TA side you can adjust yours a lot more, depending on the kind of draw you/him are having.
Unless I get a delver draw, my concerns are primarily in not dying.

Batterskull is their only lategame, try to snatch that with discard / save pulse for it.

Kill delvers and sfm on sight, latter no longer a priority if skull is gone.

Try to keep a charm or liliana in reserve for tnn.

Use your wastelands in their white sources, unless you have a delver draw and feel like you can push the advantage.
Don't be too eager to get on board, unless they pressure you to. If they are not deploying threats they are more vulnerable to hymn, try to capitalize and protect your threats from stops.

Never fall behind on board, they are very good at pushing their advantage - easy to say, I know.

I sb 4 fow 4 daze 2 stalker 0-1 bayou out, with 3 charms 3 disfigure 1 pulse 1 vendilion 1 liliana 0-1 tar pit 1/2 seize coming in.
I have found this to be a good base, adjusting to how they fetch with sfm, use their bolts, how they use their wastelands, which color they go after etc.

That is exactly how i board.

[Dragonslayer_90]

What Deviant said, though if you start off with only one removal spell in hand and no discard, I would probably save that removal spell for an early mystic instead of killing a T1 Delver. I got boned one time because I opted to kill an early delver and lost to a turn 2 stoneforge mystic into batterskull because I had no other removal. Seriously, the only thing remotely scary for me out of UWR is an early Stoneforge-Mystic-into-Batterskull, not TNN really.

[Dragonslayer_90]

There's something that's been on my mind in regard to this deck. It's Tombstalker's place in the deck. I've always found him to be utterly amazing or uncastable garbage that rots in in my hand. I find myself siding him out a lot since I take him out against most combo decks and any UWx deck with swords and jace (stoneblade variants and miracles primarily). These deck types take up a sizable portion of the general meta, which makes me wonder why I am playing this card? I am not saying it's a terrible card in general. Tombstalker's won me games that I could not have won otherwise, but when I side out a card in so many match ups it makes me wonder why I'm even playing the card. Is it just one of those cards that's only good the decks Game 1s but not so much in postboard games? Let me know your guy' opinions.

[Purgatory]

Finished second, out of 16, in another local today. Played the stock list (borrowed the missing lands this time) with Dismember and Sylvan Library.

My matches:
Elves (1-2)
BUG (2-1)
Affinity (2-1)
BW Deadguy Blade (2-0)
ID with Burn for T4

SF: Miracles (2-0)
F: Elves (1-2)

My sideboard:
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Golgari Charm
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

So despite bringing in 8 cards to beat Elves, I still lost to the buggers twice. I boarded out Daze and Hymn for Disfigure, Golgari Charm and Pithing Needle. I really need to get a couple of Cages, sure, but other than that - what are you guys' game plans vs. Elves?

[Griselpuff]

There's something that's been on my mind in regard to this deck. It's Tombstalker's place in the deck. I've always found him to be utterly amazing or uncastable garbage that rots in in my hand. I find myself siding him out a lot since I take him out against most combo decks and any UWx deck with swords and jace (stoneblade variants and miracles primarily). These deck types take up a sizable portion of the general meta, which makes me wonder why I am playing this card? I am not saying it's a terrible card in general. Tombstalker's won me games that I could not have won otherwise, but when I side out a card in so many match ups it makes me wonder why I'm even playing the card. Is it just one of those cards that's only good the decks Game 1s but not so much in postboard games? Let me know your guy' opinions.

Yeah, he's bad vs. almost half the format right now, but against the rest he's insanely good. The other option would be TNN (discussed at length) or Nimble Mongoose which doesn't do well with DRS, but might be okay. Still, Goose is only better vs. StP decks and Tombstalker is better vs. almost everything else. Having 2 match-up dependent cards MD imo is fine as you always have Brainstorm.

[Grand Superior]

There's something that's been on my mind in regard to this deck. It's Tombstalker's place in the deck. I've always found him to be utterly amazing or uncastable garbage that rots in in my hand. I find myself siding him out a lot since I take him out against most combo decks and any UWx deck with swords and jace (stoneblade variants and miracles primarily). These deck types take up a sizable portion of the general meta, which makes me wonder why I am playing this card? I am not saying it's a terrible card in general. Tombstalker's won me games that I could not have won otherwise, but when I side out a card in so many match ups it makes me wonder why I'm even playing the card. Is it just one of those cards that's only good the decks Game 1s but not so much in postboard games? Let me know your guy' opinions.

I agree. When he's good, he's incredibly good because he's the biggest flyer in the format that isn't cheated into play and he dodges Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt all day. But he has the inherent drawback of being terrible against STP/bounce/Submerge and the fact that he gives our deck an almost Dredge-like reliance on the graveyard (3 out of our 4 threats care about the graveyard). I personally think that he's the best option our deck can play right now (TNN in my opinion just didn't provide enough punch) but I long for the day when something gets printed that can replace Tombstalker.

[danyul]

@Purgatory - there is some light discussion of the Elves matchup in the previous two pages. Your strongest card against them is likely G.Cage, as you already know. I'm not sure how sexy Pithing Needle is in that matchup. You could swap one of those for a V.Clique, perhaps, the next time you board.

[Purgatory]

@Purgatory - there is some light discussion of the Elves matchup in the previous two pages. Your strongest card against them is likely G.Cage, as you already know. I'm not sure how sexy Pithing Needle is in that matchup. You could swap one of those for a V.Clique, perhaps, the next time you board.

Sure, I boarded it mostly to combat Wirewood Symbiote, it is easily one of the most annoying creatures in the match-up, IMO.

[deviant]

TStalker is one of the reasons I'm liking this deck so much.
Sure, I too sb him out a lot, but that hardly makes a bad md card.
People rarely play RiP md, which is one of the biggest reasons that make me want to sb stalker out, as those decks are sure to also have 4-5 stp postboard.
Him being unboltable, undecayable is a huge bonus in many mu's.

Playing with him requires some foretought though. How many times has your stalker been submerges f.e?
Well could you have fetched differently or did you really have to get that forest on the table?
Did you bait the stop sufficiently, or did you get unnecessarily aggressive with closing the game?

People I see mock stalker most, tend to play him pretty horribly :/

And about the elves mu, I still hold my ground on this:
No matter how many hatecards you think you need, you need practice more.

Learn to win with removal and pinpoint discard only, you can add the cages later if you want to, but testing with those teaches you to play the "cage games", and it's the cageless games you should worry about the most :)

[Dragonslayer_90]

TStalker is one of the reasons I'm liking this deck so much.
Sure, I too sb him out a lot, but that hardly makes a bad md card.
People rarely play RiP md, which is one of the biggest reasons that make me want to sb stalker out, as those decks are sure to also have 4-5 stp postboard.
Him being unboltable, undecayable is a huge bonus in many mu's.

Playing with him requires some foretought though. How many times has your stalker been submerges f.e?
Well could you have fetched differently or did you really have to get that forest on the table?
Did you bait the stop sufficiently, or did you get unnecessarily aggressive with closing the game?

People I see mock stalker most, tend to play him pretty horribly :/



I meant no disrespect towards Tombstalker if you think I'm one of the people "mocking" him. Just trying to understand why he's important to how the deck works despite getting sided out a lot.

[deviant]

I meant no disrespect towards Tombstalker if you think I'm one of the people "mocking" him. Just trying to understand why he's important to how the deck works despite getting sided out a lot.

Ah. Did not mean it like that, though I see now how it may seem like it :/
Just prompted a vent of some kind to loosen up too much and come off :)

[CroSS.24]

Alright its time for me to show you guys what I've been working with for awhile now. I have been playing this deck and tinkering with it for a long time. I think it is to the point where I can post it and get some helpful input on it. It is more creature heavy then the typical build and plays more like RUG delver than the TA you're use to. I find that it is better than the list everyone is running, but that is mostly due to me being more of a "control" player than a "disruption" player. Here it is


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidants

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

[YamiJoey]

Cut the Bobs for Wastelands and you'll have a reasonable imitation of the RUG deck you're going for. Without them your mana denial plan is super weak.

[Purgatory]

Cut the Bobs for Wastelands and you'll have a reasonable imitation of the RUG deck you're going for. Without them your mana denial plan is super weak.

The list is 56 cards, I assume he forgot about Wasteland.

[YamiJoey]

The list is 56 cards, I assume he forgot about Wasteland.

... So play 8?

[trollking21]

... So play 8?

If I can play 8 wastelands I'm playing 4 stifle snapcaster and sinkhole.

[YamiJoey]

And the SCG commentary team will still say that their opponent got unlucky from not drawing enough lands.

[KobeBryan]

I love tombstalker, but i wanna find a way to play dark confidant. Bob is the strongest black creature and an automatic removal magnet. There's no reason why we aren't playing it.

If we drop the stalkers, use the two flex slots, we can definitely play 4 bombs. what do you guys think. or just use 3 bobs with a sylvan library.

[Griselpuff]

Dark Confidant isn't really a finisher, and the life loss is actually relevant as we often play a control role. He's better in Jund because they play so much removal and other gas that he will always get through and refuel if he's unanswered.

Honestly, I think it's more important for people to stop theorizing and instead learn how to play the deck better. I'm honestly a bit tired of reading through this thread and seeing the same bad suggestions and questions over and over. Dan and I have found success with the current list and average a ~70% game win rate. No matter what tools you play with, if you're not a good player, you're not going to get far. I'm convinced that the MD 58 slots should not be changed as there is no MU in the format that I find so bad that I would want to fix a working formula.

I'm not against discussing new ideas, but when it's the same stuff over and over, it gets inane. I'm happy to discuss how to play the deck and SB cards to address specific match-ups, but continually trying to tweak a near perfect decklist seems pointless to me.

With that said, I'll talk about the UWR and Elves MU with my list from Providence : http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=60998

The UWR MU is quite close. We have Hymn to Tourach, Deathrite Shaman, Liliana and Tarmogoyf as our aces, and they have Lightning Bolts/Swords to Plowshares/Grim Lavamancer/SFM. I think this MU is incredibly play draw dependent, as you can get ahead quite quickly, but if they start with the play, Abrupt Decay is an awkward 2 mana removal spell. I'm not ecstatic about this MU, but I think it's close enough to not need drastic changes to the deck. Play more Disfigures, play more or possibly MD Golgari Charms, play more Lilianas.

Right now I SB - 4 FoW, -2 Tombstalker, -3 Daze/Sylvan Library/Ponder depending on P/D, +3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 Liliana of the Veil, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vendilion Clique

The Elves MU is bad g1, you rely on fliers and disruption into a lucky win. I SB -4 Hymn to Tourach, -4 Daze, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Tarmogoyf, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Submerge. Post SB you should have so much removal that you can beat them by stopping NO for Proggy. I like Spell Pierce over Hymn because your blue count is quite low without Daze. Hymn can be good to terrible, whereas Spell Pierce is usually okay.

[wcm8]

^Agreed.

Going forward, let's just assume the following:

20 lands (4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste, 9 fetch)*
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker*
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach*
4 Abrupt Decay
2 [FLEX SLOTS]

*Alternatively, 2 trop, 1 bayou, 4 thoughtseize, 2 true-name nemesis. However, I think Hymn and Stalker have proven themselves to simply be the better option for this archetype.

I believe Dan mentioned moving towards incorporating Liliana in the maindeck, given how great she is in a ton of matchups. I'd certainly agree with this, since I find myself siding her in practically every round. I think 2 of her and/or a 1/1 split with Sylvan Library is ideal for the flex slots. Dismember and Disfigure are also perfectly reasonable options if you expect more aggro than control.

What sideboard are you running these days? Do you tend to alternate between Stifle/non-Stifle, or have you arrived at something that works the 'best' yet?

[Megadeus]

I love tombstalker, but i wanna find a way to play dark confidant. Bob is the strongest black creature and an automatic removal magnet. There's no reason why we aren't playing it.

If we drop the stalkers, use the two flex slots, we can definitely play 4 bombs. what do you guys think. or just use 3 bobs with a sylvan library.

Play both Bob and Stalkers. "Greatness, at any cost". ANY COST

[Griselpuff]

Your SB is going to depend on your expected metagame. For an Open metagame (i.e. everything), I like my SCG Providence list as I remember covering all the bases when I built the SB, so I'd stick with that. I'll post an update to the list for SCG Baltimore as that will be the next big tournament Dan and I are going to.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Your SB is going to depend on your expected metagame. For an Open metagame (i.e. everything), I like my SCG Providence list as I remember covering all the bases when I built the SB, so I'd stick with that. I'll post an update to the list for SCG Baltimore as that will be the next big tournament Dan and I are going to.

What was your intention with the one-of submerge in your SCG Providence lists? What matchups did you have in mind when you decided to add it to your sb? I know it's a damn good sb card from playing RUG, but I feel like I'd rather have a less narrow removal spell like dismember or maelstrom pulse in that slot.

[wcm8]

Updated the sideboard guide: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=620813#post620813

The most significant update was the addition of a "top 15" section to outline what I see as the most commonly played options:

Top Fifteen Sideboard Cards to Consider Playing Right Now
1. Golgari Charm
2. Disfigure
3. Grafdigger's Cage
4. Thoughtseize
5. Spell Pierce
6. Vendilion Clique
7. Creeping Tar Pit
8. Liliana of the Veil
9. Sylvan Library
10. Krosan Grip
11. Stifle
12. Maelstrom Pulse
13. Winter Orb
14. Null Rod
15. Envelop

Obviously we still see other cards pop up like the aforementioned Submerge, and some people are still running stuff like Sinkhole, Diabolic Edict, etc. But I think this is a pretty fair assessment of what is winning tournaments right now. Interestingly enough, TC Decks has Team America listed as the Number 1 Tier Deck archetype for Legacy for December 2013. Prepare yourselves for the potential onslaught of hate and/or mirror matches.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy

[Griselpuff]

It's for RUG/Elves/the mirror. Definitely a meta call, I like Pulse too as it kills Jace and other random stuff. Dismember is only better vs. Tombstalker/Painter (you already have Decays and your own goyfs for goyf).

I wouldn't worry that much about playing TA mirrors in the US, it's just not popular. It's probably due to the high cost of the cards.

[wcm8]

Yeah, sometimes I forget that TA/BUG Cascade is literally the most expensive Legacy archetype (aside from something weird like 43 Lands). The manabase alone is absurd, and the on top of that you have Tarmgoyf, Jace/Lili, etc. Hell, even our removal (Decay) is expensive.

Feels baller though :cool::cool::cool::cool:

[kingsey]

Yeah when I drop foil fetch into fbb sea then drop a foil tarmogoyf it makes me feel special lol.

Went 3 -1 at my local loosing a bs game to esper with him dropping multiple TNN both games. Winter orb is amazing vs blade decks.

[apple713]

I love tombstalker, but i wanna find a way to play dark confidant. Bob is the strongest black creature and an automatic removal magnet. There's no reason why we aren't playing it.

If we drop the stalkers, use the two flex slots, we can definitely play 4 bombs. what do you guys think. or just use 3 bobs with a sylvan library.

mirri's guile is better than library with bob. Mirri's guile happens during upkeep with bob. meaning you will almost never take damage from bob unless you want to. Also cost 1 less than library.


Play both Bob and Stalkers. "Greatness, at any cost". ANY COST

I see you are one of the few people that read the cards and understand them. ANY COST is correct. Kobe needs to embrace the power of the black planes walkers :P

[deviant]

Basically everything that akatsuki said.
I disagree on one small part about sideboarding though, maybe I take different lines leading to more grindy games, but I have found library to be crucial in both elves and uwr mu's.
I also second that 70% winrate claim. I went through all kinds of bad card combinations during my own testing to end up where dan and bob already were. Then started winning. A lot.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I can also attest the amount of play that this deck gives you. I find myself winning most of the time when I play tightly. Thus, most of my losses are actually from some number of misplays in game, not boarding right, or some combination of the two.

[YamiJoey]

I can also attest the amount of play that this deck gives you. I find myself winning most of the time when I play tightly. Thus, most of my losses are actually from some number of misplays in game, not boarding right, or some combination of the two.

I'm fairly certain this is just a good analysis of Legacy as a format rather than the deck.

[Griselpuff]

Yeah sorry I think I keep in Sylvan Library vs. UWR. On the draw it might occasionally be awkward if you're behind, but it's just a great card.

I'm not sure about vs. Elves, especially on the draw. It's pretty terrible to fall behind in that match-up, but when you're even it's insane. I'm also not sure about Liliana in that match-up. If you have enough removal, Liliana becomes insane as it is our only answer to Progenitus. But if you're behind, Liliana is pretty terrible. In general, I prefer playing cards that will always do something useful/help me come back.

[lyracian]

mirri's guile is better than library with bob. Mirri's guile happens during upkeep with bob. meaning you will almost never take damage from bob unless you want to. Also cost 1 less than library.You can still use Library to set up Bob draws for the next turn and the one extra mana for casting it actually allows you to draw cards. Guile is cheaper to cast but not necessarily better.

[Griselpuff]

Stuck with scg providence list and went 4-1 today. Beat bant ninjas (lol) reanimator, bug control, junk and lost to affinity. 27-7 is my record with the deck starting with the gp to now.

[KobeBryan]

Stuck with scg providence list and went 4-1 today. Beat bant ninjas (lol) reanimator, bug control, junk and lost to affinity. 27-7 is my record with the deck starting with the gp to now.

I think the hardest matchup for this deck is sneak and show and esper.

Any ideas on how to board for these matchups?

I have the standard list with library and liliana

sideboard
1 maelstrom pulse
1 liliana
1 vendillion clique
3 golgari charm
1 cage
3 disfigure
1 pithing needle
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce

[Griselpuff]

I'd agree that those two match-ups are two of the tougher ones. Vs. Sneak and Show I like clique, charm, needle, seize, pierce. Vs. Esper, I like pulse, clique, charm, seize, disfigure, needle. You might want an answer to Batterskull in your 75.

[KobeBryan]

I'd agree that those two match-ups are two of the tougher ones. Vs. Sneak and Show I like clique, charm, needle, seize, pierce. Vs. Esper, I like pulse, clique, charm, seize, disfigure, needle. You might want an answer to Batterskull in your 75.

do you suggest grip over the pulse?

[Griselpuff]

Oh sorry yeah I forgot about Pulse. Nah, I mean either is fine.

[Thorhammer]

Hey everyone. I'm new to the source but have been playing Legacy for a good while and recently fell in love with this deck. I read Bob's article and was just hooked. Thanks Bob and Dan for all the hard work.

I am planning to run this deck at SCG Seattle (living in Idaho doesn't amount to a lot of big tourneys) and had a few questions for people. Currently running the stock list with a split of Lili and Sylvan.

Pithing Needle? Worth a slot or are there better options? I feel like it can come in against quite a few match ups such as Sneak and Show, Miracles, Affinity, MUD, Painter, the list goes on. I am wondering if it is a worthy sideboard against Stoneforge decks such as UWR and Death and Taxes. Also, is Pithing Needle worth it against Elves?

Sylvan Library? I have played the card in many a Legacy decks before and absolutely love it. I have played it in this deck well and am very happy with it. Recenty though, I read the recommendation of cutting it for the second Liliana. While I dismissed this at first I can see the value of that since we are stacked with two drops already, Hymn must be cast on time, and Liliana is a durable threat that can take over the game-- something that is important in a deck that has no bolts to finish off an opponent. I still think I like library but I don't want to have any sacred cows.

Maelstrom Pulse vs Krosan Grip? I guess they are super similar and fill the same role of killing a Batterskull but I would love to know a little more about the pros and cons. I am currently been playing Grip and have been impressed. Its ability to hit Counterbalance and Top is relevant and being able to guarantee [Batterskull] into yard is very desirable. I also hit an Aluren with it too which was icing on the cake. I could see Pulse being good though too against walkers, angel tokens, and just as an extra removal spell. Thoughts?

[deviant]

I don't play needle myself, but I don't hate it. Against elves you name symbiote and hf. Unless you are losing to something else that is. Be mindfull though, it's only a temporary relief as they should be boarding in decays. Don't get caught with your pants down.

Pulse is a hedge againt jtms.
Mostly it's there as a safety net for an onboard skull is awkward to deal with and they can have a stop or 2 to back it up. It also killing jace has been more important to me than grips split second. In approx. 100ish matches I've played with it I have yet to wish it was grip instead. I have yet to have it unwillingly countered.
I also board it in against decks where removal is good, even bad removal, and games go long. Like against elves f.e.
Better than liliana there.
In the unlikely scenario of a mirror, it kills stalker too :)
But there must be reasons huang and dan have kept faithfull to the krip.
CB is not it though, we already pack 4 decays and get to side in charms there.

[wcm8]

Nothing throws a wrench in TA's gameplan quite like a resolved Batterskull. Krosan Grip is the the most assured method of dealing with it once it's hit the board. Split Second is especially relevant given that UWR Delver and plays counterspells, though to be fair they may siding quite a few of them out in the post-board games.

[nickmooretol]

Hey all, planning on braving the blizzard to play in SCG Indy this weekend (it's only a 3.5 hour drive, so hopefully it won't be that bad). I'm looking at running the following list:

Maindeck:
58 standard cards (EDIT: It's actually -1 Underground +1 Tropical Island, I had a minor brain fart)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

One card that I'd like to fit into the sideboard is Engineered Plague, but I'm unsure what to cut for it. My initial instinct is the 3rd Golgari Charm since they're serving mostly the same purpose (good against the tribal decks and True-Name Nemesis), but that's probably not right.

I also have rough sideboarding plans based on reading this thread and Bob's article on CFB. My initial instinct is that my numbers may be slightly off on what categories of cards I have in my sideboard and that I should probably be bringing in Thoughtseize in more matchups:

(Bunch of edits after seeing the responses)

TES:
-2 Tombstalker -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Sylvan Library -1 Tarmogoyf -1 Bayou
+2 Spell Pierce +1 Liliana of the Veil +2 Thoughtseize +1 Vendilion Clique +3 Golgari Charm

ANT:
-2 Tombstalker -2 Abrupt Decay -1 Sylvan Library -2 Tarmogoyf -1 Bayou
+2 Spell Pierce +1 Liliana of the Veil +2 Thoughtseize +1 Vendilion Clique +2 Grafdigger's Cage
(Option to sideboard Golgari Charm if I see Empty the Warrens)

Elves:
-4 Daze -4 Hymn to Tourach -2 Tarmogoyf -1 Bayou
+3 Golgari Charm +3 Disfigure +2 Thoughtseize +1 Vendilion Clique +2 Grafdigger's Cage
I'm going to try Thoughtseize over Spell Pierce and adjust if need be.

Stoneblade:
-4 Force of Will -4 Daze -2 Tombstalker -1 Bayou
+3 Disfigure +3 Golgari Charm +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Liliana of the Veil +1 Krosan Grip +2 Thoughtseize

RUG Delver:
-2 Daze -2 Force of Will
+3 Disfigure +1 Liliana of the Veil

Sneak and Show:
-4 Abrupt Decay -2 Tombstalker -1 Bayou
+2 Spell Pierce +1 Liliana of the Veil +2 Thoughtseize +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Krosan Grip

Death and Taxes:
-4 Force of Will -4 Daze
+3 Disfigure +3 Golgari Charm +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Krosan Grip

UWR Delver:
-4 Force of Will -4 Daze -2 Tombstalker
+3 Disfigure +3 Golgari Charm +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Krosan Grip +1 Liliana of the Veil +1 Thoughtseize

Dredge:
-4 Hymn to Tourach -2 Abrupt Decay -1 Liliana of the Veil -1 Bayou
+3 Disfigure +2 Spell Pierce +2 Grafdigger's Cage +1 Vendilion Clique

Reanimator:
EDIT:
-2 Hymn to Tourach -4 Abrupt Decay -1 Bayou
+2 Spell Pierce +2 Grafdigger's Cage +2 Thoughtseize +1 Vendilion Clique
I think this is the plan I'll end up going with.

[Griselpuff]

I'd recommend buying or borrowing the sea if you can, the third Bayou is not very useful (and I often shave the 2nd Bayou when I'm not against Wasteland).

The SB plans you have look solid. I'd side out at least 1 Tombstalker if they play RIP (UWR Delver)

:)

[Dragonslayer_90]

@nickmooretol: How has two Grafdigger's Cage in the board worked out for you?

As for sbing, against Elves I would not bother siding in thoughtseize with your current board plan since: 1. Since you're siding out all your hymns. Not to say that is bad (it's probably for the best), but you need the discard in the early game for it to be good. With only two thoughtseizes to side in and no hymns to complement them you're probably not going to see discard spell as often as you would like for the early game and draw it when it won't matter. 2. If you wanted to try them out the hard part is what else you would side out? You could side out the last two Goyfs, but then you might go too low on threats. Plus Goyf is alright as a threat if you can keep control of the board and deny them their tricksy dudes (Quirion Ranger and Symbiote).

As for Reanimator, I would certainly keep hymn in over Lili since Reanimator is generally a Turn 2 Combo deck. It's still has the potential to wreck their game plan even if it's not as consistent as thoughtseize and just because it's one mana cheaper than lili. You could still keep in one Lili though by siding out a land (I also generally go down to 19 lands against any deck without wasteland).

[deviant]

Based ona quick look I have this: a fetch or tar pit over the 4th sea is better than a 3rd bayou if that is beyond your means to acquire.
You should be siding the 2nd bayou out more. Mostly against decks that don't waste you.

I like seize against sfm. I don't like dealing with skull once it hits. It also takes jace against the esper variants that run him. I side only one in against uwr though, but that is mostly my numbers there.
I also like seize against elves, as they eventually get enough mana to ignore pierce (try to be mindfull of that) and seize lets you take that NO they have been bagging.

Storm is not a deck. The variants vary quite a bit and you should play and sb differently against them accordingly.
F.e you should side in cage against ant, not tes though. I also like charm against tes more than I like decay. It's debatable against ant which is better; if they go for goblins on you it should be obvious but other than that or other insight on their sb'ing I think decay being able to hit led is key there.

That is all for now - my transit ride is over.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I'm also planning to go to Indy for the Legacy Open this weekend. I'm playing a stock list with Lili and Sylvan in the flex slots. Here's my board currently:

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique

My SB's also pretty similar to everyone else's really. The Engineered Plague is mostly a nod to Elves, the only tier deck match-up I'm genuinely terrified to play against. Maybe I shouldn't have plague in the board just for that match-up but I feel like I need some extra push against that deck. Let me know what you guys think on my board.

Since Elves is the match-up I've been trying to test against recently here's the board plan I've come up with:

On the play: -1 Bayou -2 Goyf -1 Lili -4 Hymn -1 Daze +3 Disfigure +3 Golgari Charm +1 Engineered plague +1 Grafdigger's Cage +1 Vendilion Clique

On the draw: Same plan except I swap out the rest of my Dazes for Spell Pierces. My friend that I've been testing with recently thinks I should keep Dazes in on the play since it has more targets than Spell Pierce. This could be wrong but I haven't done enough testing to know if it's worth keeping any amount of Dazes in when I'm on the play.

General Observations on the Elves Matchup after some Testing:

-G1 is so bad unless I get lucky or they get unlucky and stumble.

- Postboard is more even but can still be tough. I feel like I NEED to tempo them out because they can out grind you and/or even just aggro you out if they can't combo you out. In general, I'm hoping to dodge this match-up when I play at Indy this weekend. But I know there's a decent chance of me facing it so I've been testing this matchup in particular as much I could recently. Let me know if you guys have anything to say in response to what I've posted.

[deviant]

Yup, just won my 2 byes for gp paris playing the same md as before, with the same sb as before -1 cage +1 submerge.
Still like the deck, hopefully people in the open and other gpt's do well also!

[Purgatory]

Yup, just won my 2 byes for gp paris playing the same md as before, with the same sb as before -1 cage +1 submerge.
Still like the deck, hopefully people in the open and other gpt's do well also!

Congrats!

Any chance of a report here or in the reports forum?

[deviant]

Congrats!

Any chance of a report here or in the reports forum?

No, not really. I don't really have any interest in writing one nor do I see a point in it.
Had some bad luck, had some good luck. People played horribly and lost to that. Nothing to see here.

Tombstalker overperformed as expected (if that makes any sense) and the submerge got cast once promptly winning the game out of nowhere near a winnable game state. The deck is still insanely hard to play, and very good if you manage to do so in a somewhat unshameful fashion.

Sided out lots of counters and sided in lots of removals.

I guess that covers most of it?

[Looooooooo]

Hi all,
I'm currently playing a pretty standard Shardless BUG list, after long time spend with ANT after deciding to play a fair deck, but the deck seems to miss something, and i don't know what...
From your experience of BUG players what are the pros & cons of a more tempo approach vs a card-advantage/control approach, in the meta right now (set aside style of play, in which i miss with both as an old storm/combo player).
Thanks for all!

- L

[Dragonslayer_90]

I came to this deck after playing Shardless BUG for a while so I have experience with both decks. My opinion: Shardless BUG is the better deck in a metagame of fair decks (by that I mean mostly fair blue decks like blade and delver decks, though it's not near impossible to be able to beat non-blue fair strategies like death and taxes and goblins if you're good enough with the deck). However, Team America also has game against blade variants (these matchups can be difficult but tight play can get you there as long as you aren't too unlucky) and other delver decks while having a MUCH stronger combo match up than Shardless BUG (Combo is pretty good actually). Thus, the way I see it, Team has more good to even matchups in the current tier 1-1.5 metagame than Shardless BUG. Shardless BUG's card-advantage approach is stronger against fair decks than Team's tempo approach, but Team's Tempo approach is still pretty strong even against fair decks, and it only gets better postboard when you can emphasize your G/B elements even more. All and all, which deck you choose comes down to a combination of the metagame you're playing in and play style. I think the metagame matters even less and experience with your deck for a big tournament like a GP or Open since the meta can be rather unpredictable in that field, at least in the first three rounds (unless of course you deck is particularly poorly positioned, like when Shardless BUG was being hated out by all the blood moon decks).

Went 3-1 at the Legacy Open Trial in Indy yesterday. Unfortunately, the results were skewed since I faced budget non-tier decks in the first three rounds and didn't play a tier deck till the last round (a Stoneblade player who I made work for it in three games). If anything else, I found out I can play the deck well enough to think on my feet when I get paired up against a deck I haven't thought about playing against. Wish me luck today. Hoping to at least cash but ideally win of course.


Hi all,
I'm currently playing a pretty standard Shardless BUG list, after long time spend with ANT after deciding to play a fair deck, but the deck seems to miss something, and i don't know what...
From your experience of BUG players what are the pros & cons of a more tempo approach vs a card-advantage/control approach, in the meta right now (set aside style of play, in which i miss with both as an old storm/combo player).
Thanks for all!

- L

[Looooooooo]

I came to this deck after playing Shardless BUG for a while so I have experience with both decks. My opinion: Shardless BUG is the better deck in a metagame of fair decks (by that I mean mostly fair blue decks like blade and delver decks, though it's not near impossible to be able to beat non-blue fair strategies like death and taxes and goblins if you're good enough with the deck). However, Team America also has game against blade variants (these matchups can be difficult but tight play can get you there as long as you aren't too unlucky) and other delver decks while having a MUCH stronger combo match up than Shardless BUG (Combo is pretty good actually). Thus, the way I see it, Team has more good to even matchups in the current tier 1-1.5 metagame than Shardless BUG. Shardless BUG's card-advantage approach is stronger against fair decks than Team's tempo approach, but Team's Tempo approach is still pretty strong even against fair decks, and it only gets better postboard when you can emphasize your G/B elements even more. All and all, which deck you choose comes down to a combination of the metagame you're playing in and play style. I think the metagame matters even less and experience with your deck for a big tournament like a GP or Open since the meta can be rather unpredictable in that field, at least in the first three rounds (unless of course you deck is particularly poorly positioned, like when Shardless BUG was being hated out by all the blood moon decks).

Went 3-1 at the Legacy Open Trial in Indy yesterday. Unfortunately, the results were skewed since I faced budget non-tier decks in the first three rounds and didn't play a tier deck till the last round (a Stoneblade player who I made work for it in three games). If anything else, I found out I can play the deck well enough to think on my feet when I get paired up against a deck I haven't thought about playing against. Wish me luck today. Hoping to at least cash but ideally win of course.

Thanks for the very exhaustive reply and gl hf!
Your explanation is very enlightening and partially sustain my initial feels.
My initial thought was that, for an unexperienced fair player like me, sideboarding against storm would be a little easier, so i started with a deck with a MD more suited for fair MU and a SB for storm/combo deck; this worked because only good storm players can play around much specific hate.
I think i will continue on the Shardless route mainly, while taking some practice also with Team America, and with time i hope i would be able to switch between the two based on the meta or the feels of the moment. So i think i'll be around this thread times to times.

- L

[Arcadia]

After playing for a while, I noticed that I sideboard out a lot FoW and tombstalker and bring in a lot of removal. I've tried 3 FoWs and it worked well (I beated combo anyway), but I'm still a bit scared of doing so. I'm also dropping tombstalker completely from the list as I never want to draw it early game, it's another graveyard-dependant card, it can be submerged on g2, and so on. It won me few unwinnable games, but I'm not convinced. I will bringing some disfigures to MD, which are winning lots of games.

About SB:




Stoneblade:
-4 Force of Will -4 Daze -2 Tombstalker -1 Bayou
+3 Disfigure +3 Golgari Charm +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Liliana of the Veil +1 Krosan Grip +2 Thoughtseize

Elves:
-4 Daze -4 Hymn to Tourach -2 Tarmogoyf -1 Bayou
+3 Golgari Charm +3 Disfigure +2 Thoughtseize +1 Vendilion Clique +2 Grafdigger's Cage
I'm going to try Thoughtseize over Spell Pierce and adjust if need be.


Stoneblade / UWR Delver: Why -4 Daze (specially on the play), ? I saw that Bob does that too, but with daze you can cut Stoneforge, nemesis, jace, and other random stuff that they can't afford to hold for one turn. I'd like to hear the idea behind that. I would not sideboard out bayou, as they have wastelands.

Elves: I don't sideboard out hymn to tourach on 2nd or 3rd turn is a very good way to disrupt their game plan. Elves needs some amount of creatures to do dangerous stuff, if you can 2x1 them fast, it's easier to win. Not to mention, that they will still be holding natural order, glimpse or zenith. Later they will be dead cards...but against elves, I look for an aggressive start.

[KobeBryan]

After playing for a while, I noticed that I sideboard out a lot FoW and tombstalker and bring in a lot of removal. I've tried 3 FoWs and it worked well (I beated combo anyway), but I'm still a bit scared of doing so. I'm also dropping tombstalker completely from the list as I never want to draw it early game, it's another graveyard-dependant card, it can be submerged on g2, and so on. It won me few unwinnable games, but I'm not convinced. I will bringing some disfigures to MD, which are winning lots of games.

About SB:



Stoneblade / UWR Delver: Why -4 Daze (specially on the play), ? I saw that Bob does that too, but with daze you can cut Stoneforge, nemesis, jace, and other random stuff that they can't afford to hold for one turn. I'd like to hear the idea behind that. I would not sideboard out bayou, as they have wastelands.

Elves: I don't sideboard out hymn to tourach on 2nd or 3rd turn is a very good way to disrupt their game plan. Elves needs some amount of creatures to do dangerous stuff, if you can 2x1 them fast, it's easier to win. Not to mention, that they will still be holding natural order, glimpse or zenith. Later they will be dead cards...but against elves, I look for an aggressive start.

Thats why you run 2 tombstalkers. What are you replacing it with?

FOW is a meta call.

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I went X-3 today and finished 31st to cash $100 since my Tiebreaks were that good. I was X-1 going into the second-to-last-round, which if I had won and not punted I probably would have Top 8'ed. Then I lost the last round to miss Top 16. Overall the deck was sick and I'm 90% sure I'll play it in SCG Columbus. My list was stock with Disfigure and Lili in the two flex slots. My sideboard was the following:

3x Golgari Charm
3x Spell Pierce
2x Disfigure
1x Sylvan Library
2x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Creeping Tarpit
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil

I don't think I'll change too much with the deck. Maybe some sideboard slots depending on any meta changes between now and SCG Columbus, but even then I doubt it since the format doesn't change as fast as standard. Also, anyone thinking of cutting Tombstalker should re-evalute their play or change to a different deck. That card got me out of many sticky situations today. I feel like this deck would lack the punch it has without the hymnstalker duo. Plus as a two-of you can just brainstorm tombstalker away if doesn't fit into your game plan for a particular game.

[Cire_dk]

Went top 4 in GPT trial with 45 people. This time I played the deck better than last time so it performed very well for me. Standard list with Sylvan library. SB no thoughtseize but 2 Surgical extraction. Was very good in a lot of match ups.
I was surprised how many different decks TA can handle. I have not played any other decks so far that were this good.

The games I lost was against MUD first round and RUG delver in semifinal.
Won against:
TES, RUG Delver, ANT, Sneak and show, Punishing Blade.

Overall very pleased so I will probably stick to this deck for now.
I was to focused to make any proper notes this time, and I have no standard SB plan. It all depends on my opponent.

A lot of opponents expected me to run True name nemisis and told me the card would be very good in this deck. This was quite good for me. Them Cabal therapy naming TNN , failing, me Surgical Bye bye Cabal so this was very usefull.
I will continue to run the deck without them. It doesn't need them.

[deviant]

I would still argue that this is not the right home for TNN, but the shell has proven strong enough to carry it.
Personally, I still see this deck as an "anti-TNN" deck, which is the reason I started testing bug in the first place. My testing took me more and more in this direction and at some point I realized I have arrived at TA. Fine by me.

The mud and painter mu's are unfortunately very rough, as is burn, and this can prove to be an issue in smaller tournaments like GPT's.
I wouldn't overreact however - natural selection has proven to make these tier 2.X decks less of an issue in the later rounds of bigger tournaments.
I like how we have atm real game vs every significant tier deck, with probably elves being the biggest offender.

How does everyone feel about these mu's?
I'm afraid I'm being overconfident but winning close to 80% of my last ~50ish tournament matches (irl & mtgo) kinda distorts my view :/

[wcm8]

The mud and painter mu's are unfortunately very rough, as is burn, and this can prove to be an issue in smaller tournaments like GPT's.

I like how we have atm real game vs every significant tier deck, with probably elves being the biggest offender.

How are you losing to Burn? You have Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Daze, FoW, Spell Pierce (in the board), DRS, and Delver as a fast clock. You just need to play intelligently, e.g. don't overextend with lands/keep Wasteland up, don't drop a Goyf into Bolt range, use DRS's +2 life ability whenever possible, know which spells to counter and which to ignore, etc. This matchup used to be really poor, but with the advent of DRS/Delver I feel like this is actually a fairly positive matchup.

I would also say that among Tempo decks, TA struggles the least against MUD. This is partially because a Chalice on 1 isn't quite as backbreaking: we have plenty of two drops and we can also Decay it. I'm not saying this matchup is 'easy', but as long as you can stave off their broken early turns, you should be able to win due to us playing Ponder/Bstorm and them relying on top-decks.

Painter is pretty close to an auto-Loss, I'll give you that. A single Blood Moon effect resolving is essentially game over. The best you can hope for is some luck with being able to counter their bombs and keeping up mana for a sandbagged Decay for their Painter and/or Golgari Charm for Blood Moon. That said, I wouldn't really bother warping the deck too much to beat them, because to do so would weaken the list against everything else. They are a deck designed to beat on anything leaning too heavily on non-Basics. Plus, it's not like Painter is a large portion of the metagame.

Elves is rough, especially game 1. But with enough sideboard slots and a little luck, it's not really unwinnable. The key is to test this matchup and have a good sideboarding strategy. For one, I don't think leaving in Tarmogoyf and Hymn is very good, but I see people still doing that. You can always add some additional hate slots if you see this in your local tournament scene commonly -- Darkblast, Jitte, Engineered Plague, Perish, etc.

[Kowitz]

Hey everyone,

I usually play TES, but I enjoy switching up decks, to have a second deck to play. Those decks have been dredge, UWR delver, Sneak Show, and most recently Esper Stoneblade. Now I am building Team America.

I put together the stock list, minus one Abrupt Decay main. So with that spot open, plus the two flex spots, I am playing 2 Liliana and one Sylvan Library.

How do you feel about Toxic Deluge in the board? I am testing it as a one of, as it seems like it is very strong against a lot of decks.

Here is my board:

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Creeping Tarpit (I see this one in almost every SB, so I put it here as well, just curious as to when I board it in)
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure (I might cut one for either the 4th Abrupt Decay, or a Krosan Grip, or maybe just make the Maelstrom pulse a Krosan Grip)
3 Golgari Charm

[Asthereal]

Reached the finals of GPT Paris in Eindhoven (NL) yesterday, out of 45 players.
Unfortunately I lost the final, so no byes or spot in the invitational tourney at the end of the year. :frown:
I played the stock list with 1x Lily and 1x Sylvan in the flex slots.
Sideboard was:
3x Disfigure
3x Spell Pierce
2x Thoughtseize
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Golgari Charm
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Liliana of the Veil

Short explanation of the matches:

1. Marion (Merfolk).
Game 1 she is mana screwed after a mulligan, and a flipped Delver gets there.
Game 2 she mulligans again, but this time it's me who gets mana screwed and the Lords kill me.
Game 3 she draws a lot of lands, which I discard with Hymn. I kill some guys and Stalker gets there.
2-1, 1-0

2. Folke (Punishing Fire control with Intuition-Demigod kill)
Game 1 he makes me discard some stuff. I counter removal and Goyfs seal the deal.
Game 2 same story, except I remove all Punishing Fires with my one-of Surgical. :laugh:
2-0, 2-0

3. Ruben (white MUD)
Game 1 his Thalia slows me down. I want to kill it, but I need Decay for Chalice. He gets a Metalworker online and casts 2x Lodestone and a Wurmcoil.
Game 2 I mana screw him with some Wastes and Stalker comes down to finish him off.
Game 3 I start beating with a Goyf. He gets a Batterskull in and stalls the board. We go into time, which saves my ass.
1-1-1, 2-0-1

4. Bart (Canadian Thresh)
Game 1 I Deathrite him a bit while he Stifles my lands. He kills the Shaman and floods the board with guys. I just sit there.
Game 2 I make a serious mistake when I could have played around a Stifle but failed and again I have no chance. I do manage to kill a Delver or two, but he gets a True-Name Nemesis on the board which I just cannot handle.
0-2, 2-1-1

5. Theun (DeathBlade)
Game 1 I win without him dealing me damage, but I don't really remember how. Probably got a Goyf in.
Game 2 is a bigger battle. We fight over board presence and Stalker gets there just in time (he managed 10 damage when I was on 11 life).
2-0, 3-1-1

6. Tom (friend of mine, rocking Solidarity, major props for that and too bad we have to fight eachother for the win-and-in)
Game 1 I have a FoW and double Daze for permission. My Deathrite also annoys his Snappies a bit. At some point he tries to go off and I stop it, apart from him Freezing me for 15. He then tries again and manages to cast Meditate with one High Tide online, three mana floating and nothing left in hand. He whiffs, drawing 2x Island, 2x FoW.
Game 2 I draw the nuts: one land, a Delver, a cantrip, 2x Daze, 2x Spell Pierce and a Goyf. I cantrip into another land and put him on a clock. I find a FoW to go with the rest and he just never gets anything going.
2-0, 4-1-1 and reach top-8 as number 8. :smile: (but I'm on the draw every game because I am 8th...)

Quarterfinal against Frank with Punishing Jund.
Game 1 he gets the engine going and I'm just never in there.
Game 2 I screw him with double Wasteland. He never draws new land and I win easily.
Game 3 I have to mull to five while he snap-keeps. I feel this is probably it, but you never know. He starts fetch-swamp-toughtseize and takes my Ponder. I draw and cast a Deathrite. He plays Grove and casts a Deathrite as well. I waste his Grove and use my Deathrite to counter the mana ability of his. He again never draws more land, but I find cantrips, which in turn find me Disfigure for the Deathrite, a Goyf for a clock and so on. Talk about changing luck!
2-1, 5-1-1

The top-4 decides to split the prizes, but we still have to play for the byes and the spot in the invitational tourney. I for one am very happy that the pressure is off. There's only a small chance that I'll make it to Paris anyway, so the money is most important to me. Do want a spot in that invitational though... :wink:

Semifinal against Jeroen (Sneak&Show)
Game 1 I find a nice amount of permission, but he manages to get a Sneak Attack in anyway. Thing is, he lacks a guy, and after I waste his only red source also a red mana to activate the enchantment. I manage to kill him before he finds the two things he needs.
Game 2 I keep a slightly scetchy hand with a permission spell, a guy, two cantrips and three lands. He goes land, petal, petal, blood moon. Hilariously fast game. :tongue:
Game 3 I have a lot of permission, but no clock. I find a Clique, which removes an enabler, but it gets killed by Pyroclasm. Why would S&S board that in against me? Anyway, I find a Deathrite as new clock, and later on a Goyf joins the party while cantrips find me more permission. We end the game with me holding three FoWs against his hand without enabler.
2-1, 6-1-1

Finals against Bart again (same Thresh player as round 4, oh shit...)
Game 1 I get a Delver online, but he manages to kill it. Later I get a Deathrite online, but in the meantime he managed to resolve two Goyfs while I was struggling with my mana because of his Wasteland. The goyfs just kill me.
Game 2 goes alot better for me. I sided out Hymns, because of the awkward mana cost and them not influencing board presence. Deathrite gets killed, but after some back and forth of resources I manage to resolve a Tombstalker, which is just too much for him to handle.
Game 3 I keep a hand with five lands, which in hindsight was probably a mistake. He never Wastes or Stifles a land, so I end up shuffling two away after a Brainstorm. The problem was that he used that time to develop his board, and my Goyfs enter the party when it's already too late. To make matters worse he uses two Submerges to slow me down even further and he gets a True-Name Nemesis in again which I never find my boarded in one-of Charm for (didn't feel I should board in more, because Charm doesn't easily kill so many guys from Thresh - maybe I was wrong there).
1-2, 6-2-1

So I end up with 57,50 euro for my troubles.
Over all I'm very happy with the deck and how I played it. I made only four play errors, as far as I noticed them, and I probably made some sideboarding errors, but that's no wonder since this is only my second time playing this deck competitively.
The main deck seems absolutely fine to me. Perhaps I'll change a thing or two in the sideboard. I'm not sure the Seizes are strictly necessary, and I would love to find some room for a Maelstrom Pulse. Did love the Surgical though. Boarded it in twice, and used it very well the time I drew it! Be sure to give me advice on one or two adjustments if you feel like it. :wink:

One thing I did manage to confirm here: the deck is SERIOUSLY awesome to play! :laugh:

[Looooooooo]

Hey everyone,

I usually play TES, but I enjoy switching up decks, to have a second deck to play. Those decks have been dredge, UWR delver, Sneak Show, and most recently Esper Stoneblade. Now I am building Team America.

I put together the stock list, minus one Abrupt Decay main. So with that spot open, plus the two flex spots, I am playing 2 Liliana and one Sylvan Library.

How do you feel about Toxic Deluge in the board? I am testing it as a one of, as it seems like it is very strong against a lot of decks.

Here is my board:

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Creeping Tarpit (I see this one in almost every SB, so I put it here as well, just curious as to when I board it in)
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure (I might cut one for either the 4th Abrupt Decay, or a Krosan Grip, or maybe just make the Maelstrom pulse a Krosan Grip)
3 Golgari Charm

Hi!
Toxic deluge at 3cmc seems a little too much in term of tempo when you have a party of creatures for trade, 3 disfigure (which i advise not to cut because they kill everything relevant in most MU at the cost of just one mana) and 3 charms; but as a one of is worth to test (personally i love it in my Shardless BUG so maybe...).
Tarpit IMO is very useful in general in MU with decks w/o Wastes in games that you don't need to rush i.e. after stabilize against a combo deck.
Just the 2cents of a fresh TA player.

- L

[deviant]

How are you losing to Burn? You have Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourach, Daze, FoW, Spell Pierce (in the board), DRS, and Delver as a fast clock. You just need to play intelligently, e.g. don't overextend with lands/keep Wasteland up, don't drop a Goyf into Bolt range, use DRS's +2 life ability whenever possible, know which spells to counter and which to ignore, etc. This matchup used to be really poor, but with the advent of DRS/Delver I feel like this is actually a fairly positive matchup.
Against the bad burn players I agree 100%
Try playing against the good ones and take your head out of your ass.
I take uwr delver over burn any day. (Given competent pilots, which are not always guaranteed to come alongside goblin guide)



I would also say that among Tempo decks, TA struggles the least against MUD. This is partially because a Chalice on 1 isn't quite as backbreaking: we have plenty of two drops and we can also Decay it. I'm not saying this matchup is 'easy', but as long as you can stave off their broken early turns, you should be able to win due to us playing Ponder/Bstorm and them relying on top-decks.
Surprisingly, I agree completely. I still feel the need to point out that this does not, however make the pairing a pleasant experience.



Painter is pretty close to an auto-Loss, I'll give you that. A single Blood Moon effect resolving is essentially game over. The best you can hope for is some luck with being able to counter their bombs and keeping up mana for a sandbagged Decay for their Painter and/or Golgari Charm for Blood Moon. That said, I wouldn't really bother warping the deck too much to beat them, because to do so would weaken the list against everything else. They are a deck designed to beat on anything leaning too heavily on non-Basics. Plus, it's not like Painter is a large portion of the metagame.
Not an auto-loss. Nowhere near an auto loss actually, but if they keep their sevens we are in for a rough one :/
Other than that I mostly agree. Watch out for moon and clock them. Hymn and keep decay up. Good times will be had.


Elves is rough, especially game 1. But with enough sideboard slots and a little luck, it's not really unwinnable. The key is to test this matchup and have a good sideboarding strategy. For one, I don't think leaving in Tarmogoyf and Hymn is very good, but I see people still doing that. You can always add some additional hate slots if you see this in your local tournament scene commonly -- Darkblast, Jitte, Engineered Plague, Perish, etc.
Here I agree. And this is THE mu I will test again thoroughly when Julian has time again. He is currently occupied with modern, but when we get to testing I hope he will record it and maybe it will be enlightening to TA players as well :)
I would consider it a waste and an insult to him if I tested elves again against someone other than the Lord of Llanowar :D

[Kowitz]

Hitting 3 mana consistently doesn't seem too bad with this deck in testing, especially since we play DRS.

[Looooooooo]

Hitting 3 mana consistently doesn't seem too bad with this deck in testing, especially since we play DRS.

I was questioning also the tempo of the move: tap out for a 2x1 most of the time, since not many deck overextend too much (except maybe elves) and you have your own creatures, is not particularly good for me, but maybe i am the only one to play with players that don't overextend...

- L

[deviant]

Hitting 3 mana consistently doesn't seem too bad with this deck in testing, especially since we play DRS.

The aspect of deluge in a tnn meta was what tempted me into goyf-stalker decks in the first place, yet I do not play the card.
Short version: it's not good (enough) in this deck.
Try to keep your delvers and drs alive intead of killing/siding them out. Been there, done that. Did not work out as well as I had hoped.
Big surprise there :/

[Julian23]

I'm afraid I'm being overconfident but winning close to 80% of my last ~50ish tournament matches (irl & mtgo) kinda distorts my view :/

I feel so sorry for you, bro. Looks like we really need to start playing more again after GP Prague :cool:

[Purgatory]

Not an auto-loss. Nowhere near an auto loss actually, but if they keep their sevens we are in for a rough one :/
Other than that I mostly agree. Watch out for moon and clock them. Hymn and keep decay up. Good times will be had.

+1. If we land a Goyf early enough, it's usually a 5/6 or 6/7 very easily in the match-up and it will often put them on a 3-turn clock due to their Sol Lands etc.

[Final Fortune]

Toxic Deluge really doesn't hold a candle to Golgari Charm, it can't save a creature from Lightning Bolt or destroy a Rest in Peace so what decks have 2 toughness creatures that'd make you bother playing Toxic Deluge over it? Only thing I can think of is like MUD or Merfolks or Death and Taxes that are seriously played?

[deviant]

Toxic Deluge really doesn't hold a candle to Golgari Charm, it can't save a creature from Lightning Bolt or destroy a Rest in Peace so what decks have 2 toughness creatures that'd make you bother playing Toxic Deluge over it? Only thing I can think of is like MUD or Merfolks or Death and Taxes that are seriously played?

My first intentions with it were to trump shardless bug's board control. They clog it up with agents and strixes, we land stalkers and goyfs -> deluge, swing for ten = profit?
Losing our delvers and drs hurts too much though and my plans of "going bigger" with jaces, lilianas, librarys etc postboard against all orher tempo decks just failed to produce the kind of results I was hoping for.
And just jamming TA as it is seemed to do the trick just fine so I moved on.

If you wish to pursue deluge strategies, my inclination would be to look into bug-still style decks.

[Dragonslayer_90]

So to the more seasoned legacy players: Should I alter my sideboard at all based on some loam control decks doing well this weekend by adding stuff like surgical extraction (some of which run dark depths combo pieces)? I ask this because: 1. Two out of my three losses this recent weekend were to loam control decks that were in the Top Sixteen. 2. I've only been playing legacy for ten months so I don't think myself experienced enough to predict how the meta will shape up in response to the Jund Depths deck winning SCG Indy. This is a concern for me because I'm going to be playing at SCG Columbus in two weeks. I'm not afaid of potentially facing these decks since I'm confident in my ability to pilot the deck. Even for such a bad matchup I almost beat one of them (but punted unfortunately). Just wondering how much I should respect them in regards to my sideboard.

[Griselpuff]

I find loam to be a fine match up as long as you know how to play it and how to sb . If you can land drs and fow or daze p fire, you're in good shape. Otherwise, you can often get there by playing too many threats and cantripping into wastelands for their key lands like stage and maze. Surgical is obviously great and Submerge on their token also sets them way back.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I find loam to be a fine match up as long as you know how to play it and how to sb . If you can land drs and fow or daze p fire, you're in good shape. Otherwise, you can often get there by playing too many threats and cantripping into wastelands for their key lands like stage and maze. Surgical is obviously great and Submerge on their token also sets them way back.

True. That's generally how I've won games against loam control decks in the past when playing this deck. Might consider submerge now as well if Marit Lage combos starts to pick-up in the next few weeks.

[Arcadia]

If you can land drs and fow or daze p fire, you're in good shape

Which means, that you're highly dependant on shaman + fow (daze?). Loam decks don't just die to a shaman, they can do stuff and most of times they have more than one card in graveyard.



Should I alter my sideboard at all based on some loam control decks doing well this weekend by adding stuff like surgical extraction (some of which run dark depths combo pieces)?

What happened with loam / land decks last years: It seems like a solid choice for some tournaments until someone starts playing again counterbalance or to run more graveyard hate.

I personally run 2-3 grayeard hate cards, because there's always someone with reanimator or ichorid ready to ruin your day. Surgical is also decent vs combo when you use it together with Thoughtseize. And no, DRS is not enough -at least vs ichorid, I'm not sure vs reanimator -. Some days you don't sideboard them in, but other days they save you 1 or 2 matches

[anakyn]

Hi guys, I'm very interested in playing this deck 'cause I already own all the cards (I used to play Shardless BUG sometimes, which has plenty of cards in common with TA), but on the paper the DnT matchup seems pretty brutal, mainly due to several flying creatures, StP, and RIP postboard: all of our creatures (the only threats we have) seem to be heavily hurt by these answers, and DnT is known to have positive matchups against any "Delver deck" more or less.

Since you guys consider all "Tier 1 matchups" favorable or even with the exception of Elves, could you give me some advice on how to play and what to board in/out vs DnT?

Another question, slightly related to the one above: you always board out Stalker vs white decks or decks splashing white for StP / RIP, or are there exceptions?
Which are the other matchups where boarding out Stalker is imperative from your perspective?


Thanks in advance for the replies :)

[Dragonslayer_90]

I personally run 2-3 grayeard hate cards, because there's always someone with reanimator or ichorid ready to ruin your day. Surgical is also decent vs combo when you use it together with Thoughtseize. And no, DRS is not enough -at least vs ichorid, I'm not sure vs reanimator -. Some days you don't sideboard them in, but other days they save you 1 or 2 matches

I don't consider Deathrite Shaman "enough" for any dredge deck, but then again Dredge is such a small percentage of the field that I just ignore it and hope to dodge it. This has worked for me so far. Also, Reanimator doesn't scare me in the least bit because they are easier to interact with, and Deathrite Shaman often gets the job done against them or at least pushes them into a corner that usually ends up well for me. Anyways, what do you put in your Graveyard hate slots Arcadia? Right now I only have Grafdigger's Cage but I may up the graveyard hate in my board if these loam decks start to show up more.



Hi guys, I'm very interested in playing this deck 'cause I already own all the cards (I used to play Shardless BUG sometimes, which has plenty of cards in common with TA), but on the paper the DnT matchup seems pretty brutal, mainly due to several flying creatures, StP, and RIP postboard: all of our creatures (the only threats we have) seem to be heavily hurt by these answers, and DnT is known to have positive matchups against any "Delver deck" more or less.

Since you guys consider all "Tier 1 matchups" favorable or even with the exception of Elves, could you give me some advice on how to play and what to board in/out vs DnT?

Another question, slightly related to the one above: you always board out Stalker vs white decks or decks splashing white for StP / RIP, or are there exceptions?
Which are the other matchups where boarding out Stalker is imperative from your perspective?


Thanks in advance for the replies :)

Death and Taxes can be rough but I feel its manageable if you play it right. Preboard you focus on out tempoing them. I'd almost always counter Turn One Aether Vials or Mother of Runes so that they don't get too far ahead of you. Hymn to Tourach is also pretty sweet against them in the early game since they're pretty soft to discard. Postboard side out all your counters and some other cards possibly for more removal, good grindy match cards (ex. Sylvan Library), a tarpit if you have one, and cards good against Aether Vial (ex. Pithing Needle), Rest in Peace (Golgari Charm), and Stoneforge Mystic (ex. Vendilion Clique). Your plan is still to out tempo them but you are better equipped for the grind that the match up tends to be so it won't be as bad if get a little behind.

On boarding out Stalker, I generally board out 1 versus UWR Delver and 2 versus Blade Variants and Combo. Having one against UWR Delver is alright as a way to blow them out on occasion. He's pretty bad against Blade Variants though so since they have StP, Jace, and somtimes Rest in Peace as well. Against Combo he's just too slow. Against Death and Taxes in particular you might board out like one depending in what you are board in but they see Rest in Peace less often than UWR since they don't have any card selection whatsoever.

Also, I was thinking someone should update the Primer so that players new to the deck can have some help getting started without posting in this thread constantly. I'd be more than willing to oblige but I won't be able to commit to it for about two or three weeks since I'm going back to College soon.

[deviant]

I consider stock DnT lists to be slightly positive mu's. Online you run quite a bit into team rocket members (enevoldsen and bonde most notably) and as long as they don't run mirran crusader (embarrassing against TNN) it is relatively easy to navigate a win. They still have nut draws, but we can trol-roll them too and any interactive game where both play spells favors us. Barring crusader involvement.

Be careful to not get gotten by wilt-leaf liege, develop your mana and milk golgari charm.
There are not that many creatures you need to decay if you have the charm, so try to save those for equipment and vials in case they are mana-awkward.
For a monocolor deck their manabase is not something I would take pride in :D

Counters and stalkers out, removal and mana in.
Beware of batterskull.

[Asthereal]

@Deviant
What do you think about the Punishing Jund matchup?
Last tourney I managed to win 2-1, but only because he stumbled on mana twice.
Other than that it seemed very rough.

How should we approach this matchup, and how would you side?

[deviant]

@Deviant
What do you think about the Punishing Jund matchup?
Last tourney I managed to win 2-1, but only because he stumbled on mana twice.
Other than that it seemed very rough.

How should we approach this matchup, and how would you side?

I would have to admit that I should probably test that mu a lot more. I have only ran into it a few times (which is surprising really)
but I would do here what I usually do: dazes and forces out, removals and a few charms in (kills bob and counters decay) push drs advantage, this lets you control the goyfs somewhat, makes your lilianas better their worse.
Never waste randomly, always have a plan with them - are you soft to grove-fire or hymn/liiana?
Avoid getting key brainstorms reb'd. They seem to like these and most bring them in.
Try to protect stalker from discard and edicts. (Duh)
Mana denial has been a good starting point for me, as we play virtually more wastes than they do, and when they go for basics it makes it easier to color-screw them.
I doubt there is a miracle-cure for the jund mu, sniff out the weak side of their draw and exploit that. Eventually they should out-grind us. Hopefully we stick a goyf or a stalker before they recover.

[wcm8]

The sideboard I've been testing as of late:

3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tarpit
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Envelop is arguably better than Thoughtseize against many of the SnT decks, as they are typically siding into Leyline of Sanctity. Against UWx control variants, its power is about equal -- being able to counter a timely Entreat the Angels or Terminus is often better than being able to selectively discard something, especially as these games tend to go long. I would also bring it in against BUG Control, as you can use it to counter Ancestral Visions and any discard spells. I will admit that Thoughtseize is better against Stoneforge Mystic decks, but you should be able to handle these with the rest of the deck.

The Surgical takes the place of the second Grafdigger's Cage, as I predict an upswing of Loam engine decks and it's also somewhat useful against combo. I feel that it's worthwhile to play at least two graveyard hate slots in addition to the maindeck DRS, simply because you never know what you might get paired against.

Maelstrom Pulse could be Krosan Grip, but I just like the versatility better.

I am considering adding some sort of Red mana source in order to gain access to REB/Pyroblast and Ancient Grudge. The decks where you would bringing these spells in typically don't run Wasteland, and their power is undeniable. The question is if the Volcanic/Badlands should take the place of the 9th fetchland, or perhaps the 4th Underground Sea.

[H]

I am going to give this deck a whirl at a relatively small local tournament this weekend. My two flex slots are a Lili and a Library.

I am undecided on the last sideboard card:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

My expected meta is a few Delver decks (at least a RUG and a RWU), a BWG Rock (with Loxodon Smiters), a Reanimater deck (probably Tin Fins), at least 1 Elves deck, Goblins, a Sneak and Show and a NO Bug deck. There will probably be a few more decks, but those are the few I have knowledge of. What would you use that last slot for? Another Lili?

[Arcadia]

t I just ignore it and hope to dodge it. This has worked for me so far. Anyways, what do you put in your Graveyard hate slots Arcadia? Right now I only have Grafdigger's Cage but I may up the graveyard hate in my board if these loam decks start to show up more.

I think hoping to dodge it is ok, I prefere not to do it and have some less slots in my SB. I run 2 surgicals and 1 Tormod. I tried Nihil Spellbomb instead of Tormod's Crypt, but as generally I don't sideboard Spellbomb unless I need it, I changed to Tormod because of the cost. Spellbomb is better in case you want to bring it against TES or rug, but I'm not doing so.


Thats why you run 2 tombstalkers. What are you replacing it with?
In the flex slots I have 1 dismember and 1 Sylvan library. Instead of the tombstalkers I have 2 disfigures, which win games in a more predictable way :wink:

[Looooooooo]

Instead of the tombstalkers I have 2 disfigures, which win games in a more predictable way :wink:

You have no idea how much i want to squeeze in disfigures in the decklist... Right now i'm leaning to play one Disfigure and one SL in the flex spot :eek:

- L

[Arcadia]

You have no idea how much i want to squeeze in disfigures in the decklist... Right now i'm leaning to play one Disfigure and one SL in the flex spot :eek:

- L

If you only play 1 I would consider dismember instead. When you draw it randomly it kills Tarmogoyf. As bonus it kills Tombstalker, batterskull tokens and merfolks when there are two lords.

[Looooooooo]

If you only play 1 I would consider dismember instead. When you draw it randomly it kills Tarmogoyf. As bonus it kills Tombstalker, batterskull tokens and merfolks when there are two lords.

Good catch!
Don't know why this doesn't come to my mind, i've already seen it in some lists...

- L

[Purgatory]

If you only play 1 I would consider dismember instead. When you draw it randomly it kills Tarmogoyf. As bonus it kills Tombstalker, batterskull tokens and merfolks when there are two lords.

+1. Even though it sucks taking four to the head to kill a T1 Mom when it comes up, it's remedied by the fact that Dismember is more flexible than Disfigure. I run 1 Library, 1 Dismember MD and I'm very happy with that. I've been meaning to try 1 Library, 1 Liliana, but haven't gotten around to that yet.

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I was thinking, if I'm going to run a couple of surgical extractions as gy hate in sb, why not run a couple of extirpates instead? The trade-off is of course losing the manaless cost. However, I'm thinking about it as a silver bullet for loam decks. Running extirpate allows no funny business with cycle lands because often when you try to remove their loam they'll just dredge back in response by using a cycle land. Though I guess it depends on the kind of loam decks that are popular because the one that won the SCG Open ran no cycle lands. However, many other iterations of loam control do run some cycle lands. Keep in mind that this is all dependent on how the meta shapes up in the next few weeks. Thoughts on running extirpate in the sb?

[Darkness]

So I was thinking, if I'm going to run a couple of surgical extractions as gy hate in sb, why not run a couple of extirpates instead? The trade-off is of course losing the manaless cost. However, I'm thinking about it as a silver bullet for loam decks. Running extirpate allows no funny business with cycle lands because often when you try to remove their loam they'll just dredge back in response by using a cycle land. Though I guess it depends on the kind of loam decks that are popular because the one that won the SCG Open ran no cycle lands. However, many other iterations of loam control do run some cycle lands. Keep in mind that this is all dependent on how the meta shapes up in the next few weeks. Thoughts on running extirpate in the sb?

I think running extirpate or extraction would be a valuable tool. If you have time I would wait to see what kind of loam decks shape up in the meta game before you make that call. I like surgical more for TA since it allows you to do what the deck does best, pressure while creating tempo. However as you stated you need to worry about cycle lands. SCG isn't coming to NJ till February so I have a little bit of time to decide what the most valuable GY hate I will need.

(This insight is created by theory and not actual play testing. I myself am a Shardless player and have played little TA. I would imagine that playing the free spell while continuously disrupting them is valuable.)

[Dragonslayer_90]

I think running extirpate or extraction would be a valuable tool. If you have time I would wait to see what kind of loam decks shape up in the meta game before you make that call. I like surgical more for TA since it allows you to do what the deck does best, pressure while creating tempo. However as you stated you need to worry about cycle lands. SCG isn't coming to NJ till February so I have a little bit of time to decide what the most valuable GY hate I will need.

(This insight is created by theory and not actual play testing. I myself am a Shardless player and have played little TA. I would imagine that playing the free spell while continuously disrupting them is valuable.)

Well, I only have about two weeks between now and SCG Columbus. That gives me one Open worth of data. Wish I had more time to see how the meta shapes up but whatever happens at SCG Orlando will influence how I construct my sb probably. But you are correct that surgical is better than extirpate from a theory perspective. I think if people netdeck the jund depths deck into oblivion I'll stick with surgical since that loam deck in particular doesn't run any cycle lands.

[Thorhammer]

Played at a local tournament last night with "The List," Liliana and Library.

SB:
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
1Vendillion Clique
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Round 1: 43 Lands

Game 1: He stabilizes at four life behind 2 Maze of Ith's, a Tabernacle, and Life from the Wastland lock.
Game 2: I begin by Wastlanding his Grove of the Burnwillows and Hymning a Crucible of Worlds out of his hand. He never finds loam but I don't have any pressure. He is still in it for a while and I ultimate Liliana twice!
Game 3: We don't have much time for game 3 and Lands isn't known for its speedy wins so the round is a draw.

0-0-1

Round 2: Painted Stone

Game 1: I Force of Will his first moon effect and he walks Goblin Welder into my Daze. Followed that with Hymn to tourach and the game is mine.
Game 2: He goes for the tried and true Blood Moon turn one. I don't scoop cuz I have a Deathrite Shaman. Then he played revoker and names Shaman. OK now I'll scoop.
Game 3: Is a real grind fest. I counter, Decay, and disfigure multiple moon effects but he gets Welder and an Ensnaring bridge out. He then proceeds to Incinerate me to death with Jaya Ballard Task Mage! Man this format is crazy.

0-1-1

Round 3: Painted Stone

Game 1: So apparently I did something evil to deserve all these awful matchups. Game one he Moons me T2 with mana to back up for Daze.
Game 2: I daze his first moon effect and he plays top but scoops when he finds no lands in the top three. I had already Wasted his City of Traitors.
Game 3: I keep a hand with pierce and Abrupt decay and Shaman. I hold my breath since I'm on the draw. He goes Turn 1 Mountain... Top. YES! I get a Shaman and a Goyf in play and Spell Piece/Abrupt Decay everything he has.


So. Bugger the freakin unlucky matchups. But Painter is not unbeatable. A little luck is required of course. Lands is not a popular deck but any deck with Punishing Fire is difficult since we rely so much on Shaman.

There you go! Any questions feel free to ask!

[Kowitz]

I know you guys have heavily tested this deck, and I am new to it. But what is everyones opinion about cutting one underground sea, for the 4th green source, either bayou or trop.

[wcm8]

I know you guys have heavily tested this deck, and I am new to it. But what is everyones opinion about cutting one underground sea, for the 4th green source, either bayou or trop.

Not needed. The fetching priority tends to be Underground -> Bayou -> Tropical. You want to maximize the possibility of opening up with Underground Sea as your only Dual; getting stuck with Tropical or Bayou is often going to cause problems with casting either Daze or Hymn. The only variation commonly suggested is going for 2 Tropical/1 Bayou IF you're going with the TNN/Thoughtseize list, otherwise 2 Bayou/1 Trop is superior.

[Arcadia]

So I was thinking, if I'm going to run a couple of surgical extractions as gy hate in sb, why not run a couple of extirpates instead? The trade-off is of course losing the manaless cost. However, I'm thinking about it as a silver bullet for loam decks. Running extirpate allows no funny business with cycle lands because often when you try to remove their loam they'll just dredge back in response by using a cycle land. Though I guess it depends on the kind of loam decks that are popular because the one that won the SCG Open ran no cycle lands. However, many other iterations of loam control do run some cycle lands. Keep in mind that this is all dependent on how the meta shapes up in the next few weeks. Thoughts on running extirpate in the sb?

IMO it is not worth. Keeping up a a black mana to prevent a loam for wasteland or EOT Entomb into X into I die is going to slow you down quite a lot. I'd use GY hate to survive rather than to cut their cute mid-game engine.

Sometimes it's even better if they use loam. Some (bad) loam players start dredging and dredging and not doing anything :laugh:

[Asthereal]

IMO it is not worth. Keeping up a a black mana to prevent a loam for wasteland or EOT Entomb into X into I die is going to slow you down quite a lot. I'd use GY hate to survive rather than to cut their cute mid-game engine.

Sometimes it's even better if they use loam. Some (bad) loam players start dredging and dredging and not doing anything :laugh:
Split second does help against Punishing Fire though. I guess it kind of depends on your meta.
I had to battle against two Punishing Fire decks last tourney, and if one of them would have played well, my Extraction wouldn't have done the trick...

[L0cke]

Split second does help against Punishing Fire though. I guess it kind of depends on your meta.
I had to battle against two Punishing Fire decks last tourney, and if one of them would have played well, my Extraction wouldn't have done the trick...

It doesn't actually help that much vs Punishing Fire. If they have an untapped Grove of the Burnwillows and you Extirpate one, they can just tap the Grove as it is a mana ability, and doesn't use the stack, which causes the triggered ability on Punishing Fire to trigger and be placed on the stack above the Extirpate.

[Arcadia]

Split second does help against Punishing Fire though. I guess it kind of depends on your meta.
I had to battle against two Punishing Fire decks last tourney, and if one of them would have played well, my Extraction wouldn't have done the trick...

True...I haven't seen a punishing fire in ages (in my meta), so I didn't think about it. But last times I played against something with p fire, I decided not to SB in GY hate, as with wastelands I could keep them controlled most of the times and I didn't have space to SB it in. But it was a jund (I think) and it didn't have loams.

I think testing would be better feedback than theorizing about Surgical / Extraction.

[YamiJoey]

He then proceeds to Incinerate me to death with Jaya Ballard Task Mage! Man this format is crazy.

Screw Delver, there's a new queen in town!

Also just want to reiterate the previous point about Extirpate Vs Punishing Grove. Surgical is free, Split Second doesn't do anything.

[Asthereal]

It doesn't actually help that much vs Punishing Fire. If they have an untapped Grove of the Burnwillows and you Extirpate one, they can just tap the Grove as it is a mana ability, and doesn't use the stack, which causes the triggered ability on Punishing Fire to trigger and be placed on the stack above the Extirpate.
True, but they cannot counter or play anything else to stop Extirpate.
But as you say against double or triple Grove -if they play well- neither should work.

[Valarne]

I came to this thread to ask for your opinion on a minor idea, it turns out that you were on the subject anyway, so great.

For the record, I have 2 Spell Pierce in the flex slots, and yes, it is the Stalker-Hymn version.

What I want to try out, is 1 or even 2 Leyline of the Void in the board, specifically with Loam and/or Punishing Fire decks. Jund and variations thereof. The thought process behind this is, that the Leyline doesn't have to be in the opener, for it to be good. Hardcasting it will still shut off future shenanigans, and remove their inevitability. If they hold their Punishing Fires post-Leyline, then we can try to Hymn them before we deploy Delvers and DR Shamans. At the moment I have 2 Grafdigger's Cages in the board, mostly for Elves, besides the obvious graveyard strategies.

Basically I think that this deck has a very versatile main - a main that can fight with most other strategies. Therefore I look for high-impact sideboard cards. This is the board I am trying out at the moment:
1 Spell Pierce (allround hedge)
2 Envelop (Terminus, Infernal Tutor etc)
1-2 Grafdigger's Cage (elves, grave...)
2 Golgari Charm (everything almost)
2 Sower of Temptation (S&T, maybe DnT – is just high impact against low numbers of removal)
1-2 Leyline of the Void (Punishing Fire, Loam, grave...)
3 Disfigure (allround and a necessity)
1 Krosan Grip (Batterskull in particular)
1 Null Rod (LED, DnT and Affinity...)

What do you think of Leyline and the other ideas implicit in the SB?
Thanks, Tue

[wcm8]

I think you may get a lot of people in this thread dismissing the idea, but 2 Leyline's are a fine option if you expect a lot of graveyard-centric decks. Lejay's BUG Cascade lists actually does this, I see no reason that TA couldn't implement the same approach.

[nitewolf9]

I played Leyline in my board for a bit as an experiment a while back and I did really like how powerful it was. It's not going to be destroyed by abrupt decay and as you said just ends all further yard interaction if you hard cast it, which is easier to do with shaman as well in the deck. Shaman can also subsequently mop up anything that stays behind after you hard cast it, and it gets you a nut draw if you open on it vs loam, dredge, or reanimator.

I had it as a 4 of which was a lot of board space, but I could see playing 2 or 3. The main reason I switched to cage was for elves but I don't think that plan is necessary, or even consistent when you have access to at most a couple of cages.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Lawrence Moo Young representing Team America going into the Semifinals at SCG Orlando! w00t! Hope he wins it all for the TEAM!

[Grand Superior]

He's running the stock list with two Liliana in the flex slots. Certainly shows the power and streamlined nature of Team America.

Definitely rooting for Laurence in the finals, but I feel like it'll be tough. He's up against Reanimator and he only has 4 Deathrite Shaman and 1 postboard Grafdigger's Cage as gravehate. His opponent is running 2 Animate Dead (instead of the relatively standard 4 Reanimate 4 Exhume) so at least the Abrupt Decays aren't totally dead, but it'll be a challenge.

EDIT: Unless Reanimator draws poorly and Team America has Deathrite Shaman both games. Congrats Laurence Moo Young!

[Griselpuff]

Curious to see if he posts here. He was only 1 card off my list! :cool:

[H]

EDIT: Unless Reanimator draws poorly and Team America has Deathrite Shaman both games. Congrats Laurence Moo Young!

Indeed, the Hymn was risky, but he literally hit the two best cards in his hand. That was that. The Reanimater deck did seem to draw rather poorly though.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Congrats to Lawrence Moo Young! This deck is so sweet I love it to death!

[Looooooooo]

Curious to see if he posts here. He was only 1 card off my list! :cool:

I think that the TA list is pretty stock up, pretty much all the list has only two flex spot :tongue:

BTW congrats to Laurence Moo Young! Maybe i have to make up my mind and play liliana :eyebrow: ?

- L

[deviant]

I think that the TA list is pretty stock up, pretty much all the list has only two flex spot :tongue:

BTW congrats to Laurence Moo Young! Maybe i have to make up my mind and play liliana :eyebrow: ?

- L

Yes, and that list was mostly popularized by akatsuki.
Curious to see no one else seems to want to hedge against sfm by playing seize over the 3rd pierce?
Not too worried about leyline myself, doubt that weighs too heavily on anyones decision making.

Grats for the winner though! Been long coming :)

[Looooooooo]

Yes, and that list was mostly popularized by akatsuki.
Curious to see no one else seems to want to hedge against sfm by playing seize over the 3rd pierce?

Apology for not give credit where credit is due :frown:

I'm playing 2 Tseize and 2 Pierce in the board right now but my feelings are that 1+3 is the right choice, a resolved sfm is a minor problem, with high number of removals and wastes to slow the hardcasting of a batterskull, than the great number of targets that the pierce can get right now.
In addition a timed Pierce IMO is more backbreaking than a simple Tseize in many MU.

- L

[Dragonslayer_90]

I haven't had much problems dealing with Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, and Co. With Abrupt Decay and Hymn to Tourach Stoneforge Mystic if often just a bump in the road, even if it's still something to respect. Postboard it only gets better with more removal. On playing thoughtseize in the SB, I personally prefer to have three spell peirces postboard in combo matchups. Against combo decks some will side-in counterhate like Leyline of Sanctity so I don't think it's good to add more potentially dead/bad cards. However, this is not to say it's wrong to have a couple thoughtseizes in the board as well. It's just matter of meta and preference really.

EDIT: Akatsuki, what was your reason for including Vendilion Clique in the board? I know it's a good card but I'm just wondering if we need another threat with an already threat dense delver deck. I guess disruption-and-threat-in-one is nice but the fact that it's still a three drop makes me ask your reasoning for it.

[Griselpuff]

Yeah, the MD is pretty set in stone and I won't take credit for that, but he copied my SB exactly, where there is debate.

Clique is for combo, and SFM decks where you side out Stalker due to RIP/StP/Jace

Also, because a friend asked, here is my SB guide for the top decks right now, using the SCG winning list. These plans aren't set in stone and suit my own playstyle. I probably don't even follow these exactly, but I think they will still be helpful.

RUG Delver: favored
-4 FoW, -2 Hymn on play, - 2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Hymn on draw
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
As long as you can hit your land drops and he doesn't Submerge you out, you will win.

UWR Delver: even
-1 Tombstalker, -4 FoW, -4 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana
Really close match-up, very play draw dependent.

ANT: favored
-2 Tombstalker, -1 Bayou, -3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana
Play Golgari Charm over Decay if you see Burning Wish as that makes Empty the Warrens more likely. Decay hits LED while Charm does not.

Elves: unfavored game 1, favored games 2 and 3
-1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -4 Hymn, -2 Liliana
+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Submerge
Game 1, rely on fliers, game 2 you'll have enough removal that Craterhoof will be difficult, so just try to beat NO for Proggy. I personally don't like Liliana, but I might be wrong about her.

EsperBlade: unfavored
-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -4 FoW, -2 Tombstalker, -2 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
Very list dependent, I like Daze more if they play 4+ planeswalkers.

BUG Delver: even
-4 FoW, -1 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana
DRS is extremely important in this MU, it's quite hard to come back if your opponent has one and you do not.

Sneak and Show: unfavored
-1 Bayou, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Liliana, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 KGrip, +1 Golgari Charm
I find this match-up rather hard, even with all of our hate post SB.

Death and Taxes: unfavored game 1, favored games 2 and 3
-4 FoW, -4 Daze, -2 Ponder
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
I think this is a bad MU game 1, especially if they have more Crusaders. Games 2 and 3 I like this a lot better, it's just unfortunate that you might hit one of their 2 Wilt-Leaf Lieges and then lose, but Hymn and Liliana are so good since they have no card advantage.

DeathBlade: favored
-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -4 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
I like Tombstalker because they usually play fewer Jaces and no RIP.

Shardless BUG: even
-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -1 Abrupt Decay
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Tar Pit, +1 Liliana
You need to play a heavy mana denial/disruption strategy as if they get to play real magic, you're going to lose.

Miracles: even
-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Daze, -2 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
Pretty straightforward, if they are a good player I think this match-up is close.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Akatsuki, I agree with most of what you have said in your previous post. Although, I think if you are a good player with this deck, most tier deck matchups range from Favorable to slightly unfavorable, with Elves being the only truly unfavorable matchup. I've won most of my preboard games against Sneak and Show so far, and I've won a decent amount of preboard games against Esper Stoneblade. Sometimes the latter just sit back and does nothing if you deal with their early Stoneforge Mystic they try to ride to victory, in which case you just outright kill them. I've never really felt terrified when I find out I'm playing Sneak and Show and Esper Blade in G1 of a match. In general though those are probably slightly unfavorable matchups.

[Thorhammer]

Thanks for the guide akasuki! Super helpful just know what is good and what isn't. Congrats to Lawrence for taking the tourney down. It was awesome to see BUG delver in the top 8. I wonder what his sideboard plan was for Reanimator in that final game. In 3 pierce, 1 clique, 1 cage seems obvious. But what to take out? Hymn? Decay?


A question for the class assembled. Have we had the Sylvan Library debate? Woo Young chose not to run it in his list. I feel like Liliana might be the more proactive game plan but Sylvan is an excellent engine when it gets going.

[KobeBryan]

Thanks for the guide akasuki! Super helpful just know what is good and what isn't. Congrats to Lawrence for taking the tourney down. It was awesome to see BUG delver in the top 8. I wonder what his sideboard plan was for Reanimator in that final game. In 3 pierce, 1 clique, 1 cage seems obvious. But what to take out? Hymn? Decay?


A question for the class assembled. Have we had the Sylvan Library debate? Woo Young chose not to run it in his list. I feel like Liliana might be the more proactive game plan but Sylvan is an excellent engine when it gets going.

Sylvan can turn bad board states to winnable ones.

Its just that important.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Sylvan's one of the best cards the deck could be playing for fair matchups. I beat two Shardless BUG decks last weekend without getting two overwhelmed by their card advantage because Sylvan allowed me to keep up with them. However, I relegated it to SB because I think the cantrip suite is enough to find answers in combo matchups since games don't go as long. I personally don't see it as necessary inclusion for the whole 75 but that card will win you games you would otherwise have no business winning.

[Grand Superior]

I keep wanting to run two Lilianas in the flex slots because T2 Liliana is backbreaking against quite a few decks, but I can't ever bring myself to cut Sylvan Library because T2 Library is probably even better. It greatly helps the tempo game because it gives you insane card advantage/selection and makes it likely that you'll have more answers to their cards and more threats than they handle. It's hard to lose the game with an active Sylvan.

[Cire_dk]

Sylvan library has won me lots of games so for me personally it will stay for the time being.

About the SB I am wondering:
I have been playing 2 surgical extraction instead of Thoughtseize and it has been very good against different types of decks. What are your thoughts about it, since I hardly see it coming up in this forum (might have missed the discussion in the last 171 pages ;-) )

[phazonmutant]

There was some discussion recently about the Elves(!) matchup either in this thread or their thread, can't remember which. Just wanted to share some thoughts after playing against Elves(!) a few times recently.

They say it's pretty unfavorable game 1, and somewhat favorable games 2-3. I'm not sure. I keep on winning game 1 (and 2). You guys should draw Tarmogoyf more.

Oh, and also my list might have something to do with it. I strongly feel like one of the primary ways this deck loses is to clunky, colour-intensive draws. When I was playing this deck a lot back when 4x Sinkhole was the hot sideboard tech, I strongly favored maindecking 2x Thoughtseize, 3x Hymn because you really didn't want 8 BB spells anyway. When I picked the deck up again a few weeks ago, I went back to that build and so far have been extremely happy. Deathrite into Hymn + anything is disgustingly good, but so is Thoughtseize + spell + spell or Thoughtseize + Goyf or Thoughtseize + spell + Wasteland. Etc.

So in an attempt to minimize clunky draws and maximize interaction against bad matchups like Elves (popular in the Seattle meta) and Stoneforge decks, I cut a Force, a Hymn, and an Abrupt Decay from the stock maindeck, and added 1 Disfigure and 2 Thoughtseize (with a Disfigure and Lili in the flex slots). Disfigure has been clutch in every non-combo matchup I've played, and Thoughtseize has been about as good as Hymn and certainly better than Force in most. From the board, I cut 2 Disfigures and added the missing Decay and Force.

[SirTylerGalt]

I've been thinking about the threat base, and I wonder if 14 creatures might be too much. At the same time, I want to up the number of instants/sorceries for Delver.

- Team America plays 14 creatures, 20 lands, and 24 instants / sorceries (considering the flex slots are Liliana and Sylvan Library)
- RUG plays 12 creatures, 18 lands, and 30 instants / sorceries
- UWR plays 10 creatures, 20 lands, and 28 instants / sorceries
- bUrg plays 12-13 creatures, 18 lands, and 29-30 instants/sorceries

In the bUrg thread, they have been considering that Sylvan Library can replace a creature, so they sometimes play 11 creatures and 1 Sylvan Library, for a total of 12 "threats". If we assimilate Sylvan Library as a threat, TA plays 15 threats!

One of the reasons we might want to play more threats, is that RUG plays Mongoose, UWR plays TNN, and bUrg plays Mongoose / TNN. Since we don't play Mongoose / TNN in TA, we might want to "overload" our opponent's removal.

Going forward, I want to try replacing a Tarmogoyf with a Golgari Charm. Akatsuki was already considering Golgari Charm's inclusion in the maindeck, since it is useful in so many matchups. Worst comes to worst, you can use it to save a threat from removal, using the regeneration mode. So it's still a "virtual" threat.

Something like:

// Creature [13]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

// Instant [17]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm

// Sorcery [8]
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach

// Planeswalker [1]
1 Liliana of the Veil

// Enchantment [1]
1 Sylvan Library

// Land [20]
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta



I've also been thinking about incorporating 3-4 Stifle in the maindeck, going down to 12 creatures, 19 lands, and removing an Hymn or a flex slot. But that's a big change, and I'll post about this after more testing.

[phazonmutant]

I've been thinking about the threat base, and I wonder if 14 creatures might be too much. At the same time, I want to up the number of instants/sorceries for Delver.

- Team America plays 14 creatures, 20 lands, and 24 instants / sorceries (considering the flex slots are Liliana and Sylvan Library)
- RUG plays 12 creatures, 18 lands, and 30 instants / sorceries
- UWR plays 10 creatures, 20 lands, and 28 instants / sorceries
- bUrg plays 12-13 creatures, 18 lands, and 29-30 instants/sorceries

In the bUrg thread, they have been considering that Sylvan Library can replace a creature, so they sometimes play 11 creatures and 1 Sylvan Library, for a total of 12 "threats". If we assimilate Sylvan Library as a threat, TA plays 15 threats!

One of the reasons we might want to play more threats, is that RUG plays Mongoose, UWR plays TNN, and bUrg plays Mongoose / TNN. Since we don't play Mongoose / TNN in TA, we might want to "overload" our opponent's removal.

That's a reasonable interpretation for why BUG might be more willing to play more threats than the other decks, but I don't think it's the most descriptive. BUG plays much more like a grindy, resource-denial deck than the other Delver decks. The other decks are focused on landing a threat and stopping or blanking all attempts to deal with it. Compared to the other lists, the stock BUG Delver list plays very few counterspells, mostly replaced by discard. You drop efficient threats and force them to both be proactive and reactive while you're messing with their hand and mana.

So that begs the question, why should this grindy, midrange strategy be the norm for TA? I think it really has to do with the lack of Lightning Bolt. The only incentive for going with Decay and discard over Bolt and Stifle is raw power and card advantage. Unlike RUG, TA can play head-to-head against a normal deck's midrange plan. Stifle incentivizes you to try to end the game quickly before they can draw out of manascrew, something Bolt excels at.

[Quasim0ff]

There was some discussion recently about the Elves(!) matchup either in this thread or their thread, can't remember which. Just wanted to share some thoughts after playing against Elves(!) a few times recently.

They say it's pretty unfavorable game 1, and somewhat favorable games 2-3. I'm not sure. I keep on winning game 1 (and 2). You guys should draw Tarmogoyf more.

Oh, and also my list might have something to do with it. I strongly feel like one of the primary ways this deck loses is to clunky, colour-intensive draws. When I was playing this deck a lot back when 4x Sinkhole was the hot sideboard tech, I strongly favored maindecking 2x Thoughtseize, 3x Hymn because you really didn't want 8 BB spells anyway. When I picked the deck up again a few weeks ago, I went back to that build and so far have been extremely happy. Deathrite into Hymn + anything is disgustingly good, but so is Thoughtseize + spell + spell or Thoughtseize + Goyf or Thoughtseize + spell + Wasteland. Etc.

So in an attempt to minimize clunky draws and maximize interaction against bad matchups like Elves (popular in the Seattle meta) and Stoneforge decks, I cut a Force, a Hymn, and an Abrupt Decay from the stock maindeck, and added 1 Disfigure and 2 Thoughtseize (with a Disfigure and Lili in the flex slots). Disfigure has been clutch in every non-combo matchup I've played, and Thoughtseize has been about as good as Hymn and certainly better than Force in most. From the board, I cut 2 Disfigures and added the missing Decay and Force.
I can fully get behind Disfigure. It just got 100x as good, due to UWR being the top delver deck in the format, imo, as you have a lot of outs to sfm and delver, which means your lillys get better vs their tnn.

[YamiJoey]

I don't think the Stifle build is worth it. Played it for a while, and the deck plays much more of a tappout game plan. You almost always have better things to do than hold up Stifle. It sometimes would win games for free, but often just rotted in my hand whilst I did better things and then pitched to Force.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I don't think the Stifle build is worth it. Played it for a while, and the deck plays much more of a tappout game plan. You almost always have better things to do than hold up Stifle. It sometimes would win games for free, but often just rotted in my hand whilst I did better things and then pitched to Force.

I agree with YamiJoey. Deathrite Shaman's inclusion in the deck mean you have to have a pretty good reason you are not using your mana each turn, and I don't think holding up stifle is one of them in many cases. I think in terms of Delver the only decks that should be playing stifle is thresh variants (RUG and bUrg). Our color combination gives us access to Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, and UWR has Swords and Stoneforge. My point is since RUG Delver doesn't have access to the powerful tools BUG and UWR have they have to lean on the stifle-wasteland package because they have a hard time letting their opponent play magic or coming back from behind. They often need to just get ahead and stay ahead. BUG and UWR have a little bit more staying power and can still come back if they a get a little behind.

[codegoblin]

BUG and UWR have a little bit more staying power and can still come back if they a get a little behind.

This is why I try and highlight signorini's constant inclusion of at least one sylvan library in his 75 to other TA players. It's just wayyy too good and actually will outrun UWR hard (especially post board) if it sticks. At times I've played 2 maindeck and felt like it was completely correct. I'm experimenting now with my two flex slots being one sylvan, one liliana over disfigure main and a second sylvan in the side. Disfigure seems like a fine thing to just sb into given that I've noticed my meta kinda shift towards TNN and combo (which actually looks pretty good right given the slower/midrangy TNN decks ... I've resleeved imperial painter because it's actually pretty damn good vs both esper and patriot).

A topic I want to throw out there: Are we all still loving like THREE eff'ing golgari charms sb? I think the card is kinda overrated and nearly useless in a lot of fair matchups. I've personally moved to one locally and two in scgs ... and for the worst reason ... not cause I think it's needed, just cause every other TA list seems to love it so much. Maybe I've just undervalued mode 3? Are you guys using that a lot? I love playing this deck cause you're just tapping out nearly every turn and that always equates to ruining your opponents dreams ... saving mana for the regen always seems so meh to me. Also, probably 1 in three decks I play among the Los Angeles legacy meta is a graveyard deck (dredge is so hot right now ... If I didn't hate playing it, I'd be all over it) so I actually have started playing 2 cages and a tormod's crypt in favor of the extra charms.

[phazonmutant]

This is why I try and highlight signorini's constant inclusion of at least one sylvan library in his 75 to other TA players. It's just wayyy too good and actually will outrun UWR hard (especially post board) if it sticks. At times I've played 2 maindeck and felt like it was completely correct. I'm experimenting now with my two flex slots being one sylvan, one liliana over disfigure main and a second sylvan in the side. Disfigure seems like a fine thing to just sb into given that I've noticed my meta kinda shift towards TNN and combo (which actually looks pretty good right given the slower/midrangy TNN decks ... I've resleeved imperial painter because it's actually pretty damn good vs both esper and patriot).

A topic I want to throw out there: Are we all still loving like THREE eff'ing golgari charms sb? I think the card is kinda overrated and nearly useless in a lot of fair matchups. I've personally moved to one locally and two in scgs ... and for the worst reason ... not cause I think it's needed, just cause every other TA list seems to love it so much. Maybe I've just undervalued mode 3? Are you guys using that a lot? I love playing this deck cause you're just tapping out nearly every turn and that always equates to ruining your opponents dreams ... saving mana for the regen always seems so meh to me. Also, probably 1 in three decks I play among the Los Angeles legacy meta is a graveyard deck (dredge is so hot right now ... If I didn't hate playing it, I'd be all over it) so I actually have started playing 2 cages and a tormod's crypt in favor of the extra charms.

Hey man, do you. If your meta doesn't call for 3 Charms, don't play them. But...if your meta is as you describe, I would much rather be playing a deck with 4 Meddling Mage, 2 Rest in Peace.

Cutting Sylvan from my list hurt, not going to lie. I just was making a meta call that there sould be lots of Deathrite and UWR delver decks, where Disfigure is usually just better.

[YamiJoey]

Does anyone have any ideas of where to go for GP Paris? The Miracle Control decks in EU seem to be playing Snaps, and a few are cutting Terminus for more Entreats. Aside from that I expect a lot of RUG Delver and Shardless BUG, then the usual slew of ANT/Dredge and stuff that people take to large Legacy events. I'm thinking of having a more solid anti-Dredge plan out of the board. Spell Pierce is okay for countering Dread Returns, and DRS goes some of the way, but on the draw I need DRS, Spell Pierce, and 2 lands - one of which is a Fetch - and a T2 protection plan. Short of that I'm after Grafdigger's Cage, and then I have nothing. I don'y feel like Mulling to one of my 4-ofs. I've not tested tje MU, I know literally 0 people who play it here in England, so U-Land Go might be enough to make them not go off, and I can Brainstorm and Ponder my way through the following turns, but I'm basically as scared of Dredge as I have always been, except when I play RipHelm.

Another quick question; in the meta I'm expecting (or if you thonk I'm just wrong) would UW RiP Miracles be a better choice of deck? I'm liking it's matchups, but I don't feel strong with the deck. It feels like I have to be a lot better than I am at Magic to win with it, whereas with BUG Delver I can fall back on making guys and turning them sideways to help me through some of the games that I should be losing.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Does anyone have any ideas of where to go for GP Paris? The Miracle Control decks in EU seem to be playing Snaps, and a few are cutting Terminus for more Entreats. Aside from that I expect a lot of RUG Delver and Shardless BUG, then the usual slew of ANT/Dredge and stuff that people take to large Legacy events. I'm thinking of having a more solid anti-Dredge plan out of the board. Spell Pierce is okay for countering Dread Returns, and DRS goes some of the way, but on the draw I need DRS, Spell Pierce, and 2 lands - one of which is a Fetch - and a T2 protection plan. Short of that I'm after Grafdigger's Cage, and then I have nothing. I don'y feel like Mulling to one of my 4-ofs. I've not tested tje MU, I know literally 0 people who play it here in England, so U-Land Go might be enough to make them not go off, and I can Brainstorm and Ponder my way through the following turns, but I'm basically as scared of Dredge as I have always been, except when I play RipHelm.

Another quick question; in the meta I'm expecting (or if you thonk I'm just wrong) would UW RiP Miracles be a better choice of deck? I'm liking it's matchups, but I don't feel strong with the deck. It feels like I have to be a lot better than I am at Magic to win with it, whereas with BUG Delver I can fall back on making guys and turning them sideways to help me through some of the games that I should be losing.

On the topic of Dredge I would consider adding 1 or 2 more pieces of grave hate in your board depending on how much dredge you are expecting. The options should probably be between another Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt, or Nihil Spellbomb (if you like the cantrip and don't care that it isn't free like Tormod's Crypt). I don't like Surgical Extraction if your considering more grave hate because of the dredge match-up.

As for whether you should play UW Miracles or not, I do not think you should even if you think it's well positioned. My main reason is that confidence in your ability to pilot a deck is crucial for winning in Legacy, and I would not want to play miracles at a big tournament unless I was sure I am exceptionally good with it.

[Dragonslayer_90]

4-0'ed the Open Trial today so I'm playing the open for $10 tomorrow. Wish me luck. Will report back on how I do. Planning on playing stocklist with Liliana and a disfigure in the flex slots. Here's my sb:

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

[Jessenator]

4-0'ed the Open Trial today so I'm playing the open for $10 tomorrow. Wish me luck. Will report back on how I do. Planning on playing stocklist with Liliana and a disfigure in the flex slots. Here's my sb:

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

Congrats, if you want more grave hate I think the best card is probably Grafdigger's Cage since it improves your Elves matchup as well.

[Looooooooo]

4-0'ed the Open Trial today so I'm playing the open for $10 tomorrow. Wish me luck. Will report back on how I do. Planning on playing stocklist with Liliana and a disfigure in the flex slots. Here's my sb:

SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

Never thought to give a chance to spell snare over spell pierce to break tempo and D&T MU?
Anyways good luck, may your Ponders never shuffle and your Delvers always flip!

- L

[Dragonslayer_90]

Never thought to give a chance to spell snare over spell pierce to break tempo and D&T MU?
Anyways good luck, may your Ponders never shuffle and your Delvers always flip!

- L

Eh, the spell pierces are mostly there for combo and control match ups. I like it better since it has more targets. Also, I don't usually play too many counters postboard in Tempo and D&T match-ups. Usually I board into more removal and cards good in grindy fair matchups.

[Valarne]

After having negative percentages against Esper Deathblade both in a few tournaments and testing, I have decided to try a setup of 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Sylvan Library, 3 Hymn. With 2 Krosan Grips in the sideboard for Batterskull especially. Sylvans seem like the best card in the matchup - they can't remove it, and if we contain their first threat, it should take over the game.

I did a breakdown of how I want to board against important decks, and during this I changed the list so that it all fit as best as possible (cutting Leylines that I mentioned a few pages back for instance).

How do you fare against Esper Deathblade and what do you think about my plan against it?

You can see the decklist and board plans here (all ideas and criticism are most welcome):

BUG Delver

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Tombstalker

3 Hymn
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Decay
2 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library

20 land, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou, 3 Sea, 9 fetch, 4 waste.

SB:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
1 Winter Orb
1 Notion Thief

Matchups (first I write cards going in, and after the dash the cards going out, if there is no number assigned, then it's just 1 card):

Esper Deathblade: Notion Thief, 2 Grip – Goyf, Daze, FoW ?


Mirror: 1 Sower, 1 Notion Thief – 1 Daze, 1 FoW ?


Storm: 2 Pierce, 2 Fluster, 2 Cage, Notion Thief, 1 Golgari Charm – 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Tombstalker, Wasteland.


Sneak&Show/OmniTell: 2 Pierce, 2 Fluster, 2 Sower, 2 Grip, Orb, Thief – 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Tombstalker, 2 Wasteland, Goyf.


Elves: 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Cage, Thief, 2 Flusterstorm, Plague – 4 Daze, 3 Decay, Hymn.


Jund: OTP: no board. OTD: 2 Pierce – 2 Daze.


Canadian: no boarding


D&T: 2 Grip, 2 Golgari Charm, Plague – OTP: 4 FoW, 1 Daze. OTD: 3 Hymn, 1 Daze, 1 FoW.


UW Miracles: Orb, Notion Thief, 2 Grip, 2 Pierce – 1 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 1 Daze, 2 Tombstalker.
More Charms/Decay if they are dedicated Rest n Peace.


Orb and Sower nr 2 don't seem to get much time off the bench. They could be other bullets or Envelop + third Disfigure.

[KobeBryan]

After having negative percentages against Esper Deathblade both in a few tournaments and testing, I have decided to try a setup of 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Sylvan Library, 3 Hymn. With 2 Krosan Grips in the sideboard for Batterskull especially. Sylvans seem like the best card in the matchup - they can't remove it, and if we contain their first threat, it should take over the game.

I did a breakdown of how I want to board against important decks, and during this I changed the list so that it all fit as best as possible (cutting Leylines that I mentioned a few pages back for instance).

How do you fare against Esper Deathblade and what do you think about my plan against it?

You can see the decklist and board plans here (all ideas and criticism are most welcome):

BUG Delver

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Tombstalker

3 Hymn
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Decay
2 Disfigure
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library

20 land, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou, 3 Sea, 9 fetch, 4 waste.

SB:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
1 Winter Orb
1 Notion Thief

Matchups (first I write cards going in, and after the dash the cards going out, if there is no number assigned, then it's just 1 card):

Esper Deathblade: Notion Thief, 2 Grip – Goyf, Daze, FoW ?


Mirror: 1 Sower, 1 Notion Thief – 1 Daze, 1 FoW ?


Storm: 2 Pierce, 2 Fluster, 2 Cage, Notion Thief, 1 Golgari Charm – 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Tombstalker, Wasteland.


Sneak&Show/OmniTell: 2 Pierce, 2 Fluster, 2 Sower, 2 Grip, Orb, Thief – 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 2 Tombstalker, 2 Wasteland, Goyf.


Elves: 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Cage, Thief, 2 Flusterstorm, Plague – 4 Daze, 3 Decay, Hymn.


Jund: OTP: no board. OTD: 2 Pierce – 2 Daze.


Canadian: no boarding


D&T: 2 Grip, 2 Golgari Charm, Plague – OTP: 4 FoW, 1 Daze. OTD: 3 Hymn, 1 Daze, 1 FoW.


UW Miracles: Orb, Notion Thief, 2 Grip, 2 Pierce – 1 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 1 Daze, 2 Tombstalker.
More Charms/Decay if they are dedicated Rest n Peace.


Orb and Sower nr 2 don't seem to get much time off the bench. They could be other bullets or Envelop + third Disfigure.

If you want more game against Deathblade or other blade decks, you don't need to change too much of the integrity of the deck. All you need to do is take out hymn for thoughtseize

[deviant]

If you want more game against Deathblade or other blade decks, you don't need to change too much of the integrity of the deck. All you need to do is take out hymn for thoughtseize

Unadvisable.
This change half-asses the midrange plan in many postboard matches. You give up an entire strategic approach.
If you want to go the tnn way your mana cannot sustain hymn reliably and you need to make the switch from that reason alone. You also lock yourself into a deck not as able to grind this way.
Playing a few in the sb alongside hymns is perfectly acceptable however.

Personally I'm fine playing against esperblade decks. I feel like uwr is the closest mu from our "delver relatives"
and even there at least I don't have to scoop to T1/2 moons with counter backups..

[Valarne]

@KobeBryan: I agree that Thoughtseize is better than Hymn if Batterskull is in the hand at the right moment and if they don't have Brainstorm in response. However, Grip is an unconditional answer, also to topdecked equipment. I doubt that simply playing Thoughtseize over Hymn can swing the matchup from a negative to a plus.

[KobeBryan]

@KobeBryan: I agree that Thoughtseize is better than Hymn if Batterskull is in the hand at the right moment and if they don't have Brainstorm in response. However, Grip is an unconditional answer, also to topdecked equipment. I doubt that simply playing Thoughtseize over Hymn can swing the matchup from a negative to a plus.


I didn't say it would become positive but it certainly helps against blade variants.

I'm with the hymn plan right now because of the diverse meta. But if it ever becomes overloaded with sfm I would definitely run thoughtseize over hymn. Even now there are times I wish I didn't have so many two two casting cost spells because I can only do one action on turn 2

[Dragonslayer_90]

Personally I'm fine playing against esperblade decks. I feel like uwr is the closest mu from our "delver relatives"
and even there at least I don't have to scoop to T1/2 moons with counter backups..

Deviant, are you talking about Imperial Painter or Sneak and Show?

Scrubbed out today unfortunately going 2-3 drop. Was a combination of bad luck and misplays as it usually goes, with more emphasis on the former. I think I'll continue playing this deck primarily but also try out other decks to get to know the format better. If I took anything valuable away from today it's that I still have a lot to learn about legacy.

One thing I want ask other players. How do you guys approach the Sneak and Show matchup? I think I underestimated how good that deck is because I just assume I have good game against most combo decks as a delver deck. Today I got my second loss against Sneak and Show. Kept a hand that seemed pretty good on the play (3 lands, delver, deathrite, hymn). Unfortunately he had the nuts and went probe, land, petal, petal, show and tell griselbrand. g2 I had 2 lands, daze, force of will, spell pierce, deathrite, delver. Unfortunately that hand didn't get there since he had misdirect back up to counter my force of will pitching daze when he went for the combo on turn 3. I used my spell pierce to counter an earlier ponder. My opponent thinks I should have waited till he tried to go off to win the counter war since the ponder he played on his second turn was after he made his second land drop so he wasn't looking for lands. What do you guys think? I've always thought it's best to use soft counters to counter cantrips but maybe that's wrong headed.

[KobeBryan]

Deviant, are you talking about Imperial Painter or Sneak and Show?

Scrubbed out today unfortunately going 2-3 drop. Was a combination of bad luck and misplays as it usually goes, with more emphasis on the former. I think I'll continue playing this deck primarily but also try out other decks to get to know the format better. If I took anything valuable away from today it's that I still have a lot to learn about legacy.

One thing I want ask other players. How do you guys approach the Sneak and Show matchup? I think I underestimated how good that deck is because I just assume I have good game against most combo decks as a delver deck. Today I got my second loss against Sneak and Show. Kept a hand that seemed pretty good on the play (3 lands, delver, deathrite, hymn). Unfortunately he had the nuts and went probe, land, petal, petal, show and tell griselbrand. g2 I had 2 lands, daze, force of will, spell pierce, deathrite, delver. Unfortunately that hand didn't get there since he had misdirect back up to counter my force of will pitching daze when he went for the combo on turn 3. I used my spell pierce to counter an earlier ponder. My opponent thinks I should have waited till he tried to go off to win the counter war since the ponder he played on his second turn was after he made his second land drop so he wasn't looking for lands. What do you guys think? I've always thought it's best to use soft counters to counter cantrips but maybe that's wrong headed.
The sneak attack matchup is a hard one. You don't counter the pantries. You need to counter their business spells. Hopefully you run extirpate and take their show and tell.

esper and this match up is the hardest. Even harder than elves

[Dragonslayer_90]

The sneak attack matchup is a hard one. You don't counter the pantries. You need to counter their business spells. Hopefully you run extirpate and take their show and tell.

esper and this match up is the hardest. Even harder than elves

Don't think these are blow out match ups. I think Esper and Sneak are both 50-50 to be honest. I've had plenty of times of beating both decks pre and post board. The Sneak and Show player today just had the absolute nuts game one since he got turn 1 griselbrand and I didn't have force of will to stop him (he knew that too since he played probe before show and telling). G2 I may have misplayed in spell piercing his ponder. I can understand saving counters for business spells though it probably just depends on how they play their turns (like if they are looking for land it's probably good to counter a cantrip). I still think Elves is worse than both of these matchups since our removal suite preboard is usually not adequate enough to control the board in that matchup.

[deviant]

I think there is no "correct" way to use pierce/daze/force against SnT.
It depends on their hand, your hand, their lands your lands your clock how did they play earlier etc.


Having 2 pierces when they go off does nothing if you've let them cantrip into sol lands at their leisure.
This should be obvious, really.
Pay close attention to the order they play their cantrips (this lets you sometimes make educated guesses as to how many they may have left.)
How aggressively they top/bottom with them. If they bottom aggressively they need something specific / run horribly.
Does their cantripping change dramatically after hymn hits something specific? They probably don't have a spare.
What is your clock and disruption output on their expected comboturn?
Not much use to bag more counters than you can play. (Bayous suck sometimes, but maybe you needed to hymn early and get green mana)
Also, thoughtseizes are nice here :)

[Quasim0ff]

Sometimes they did for protection, sometimes they dig for land, sometimes they did for business.

There's no real way to play the matchup as you think fits your play style/amount of pressure you can put on him.

[wcm8]

SnT is the primary reason I dropped Thoughtseize in the board for Envelop. (Secondary reason was for Blue Control). It's not fun having 6 cards in your deck that they can pre-empt by siding in a Leyline of Sanctity. I've even considered splashing Red for some REBs, but I think Envelop fulfills a similar function without having to dip into the fourth color.

It's what I consider to be the most challenging combo deck to play against: a solid manabase, cantrips for consistency, counterspells of their own, and a strategy that is often hard to disrupt with discard (unlike Storm for example), and a solid sideboard plan (Blood Moon, Leyline, etc.). The same could be said of Elves, except that Elves gets hit pretty hard by Golgari Charm.

Testing this matchup against a good pilot is the best thing you can do. Even still, I wouldn't expect to get your win percentage that much farther above 50% -- this deck is tier for a reason.

[Dragonslayer_90]

SnT is the primary reason I dropped Thoughtseize in the board for Envelop. (Secondary reason was for Blue Control). It's not fun having 6 cards in your deck that they can pre-empt by siding in a Leyline of Sanctity. I've even considered splashing Red for some REBs, but I think Envelop fulfills a similar function without having to dip into the fourth color.

It's what I consider to be the most challenging combo deck to play against: a solid manabase, cantrips for consistency, counterspells of their own, and a strategy that is often hard to disrupt with discard (unlike Storm for example), and a solid sideboard plan (Blood Moon, Leyline, etc.). The same could be said of Elves, except that Elves gets hit pretty hard by Golgari Charm.

Testing this matchup against a good pilot is the best thing you can do. Even still, I wouldn't expect to get your win percentage that much farther above 50% -- this deck is tier for a reason.

Yeah, I don't like having more discard postboard against a deck that usually has Leyline of Sanctity to answer our Hymns. How many Envelops did you add to your board? 1 or 2?

I'm going to prioritize testing this matchup in addition to Elves going forward. Problem is I don't have anyone to test against either deck with. I may just end up playing the decks myself on Cockatrice or something until I can find someone to fill that void. I think all other things equal though the matchup is 50-50 and I probably would have to dedicate more sb space than I'm comfortable with to take it beyond that. Will just have to lean on playskill and not getting too unlucky.

[SirTylerGalt]

This list finished 6th out of 342 at SCG Colombus:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62695

It plays only 18 lands, and replaces the 2 Tombstalker / 4 Hymn with 4 Confidant / 4 Stifle. It also plays 3 Ponder / 3 Spell Pierce instead of 4 Ponder / 2 flex slots.

It's funny to see a Stifle version of Team America top-8-ing a few days after this discussion about Stifle: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=781811&viewfull=1#post781811 :p

[CroSS.24]

I went 7-0 then double draw into the top 8 in Columbus. I won't try to argue that stifle is better than hymn because its a personal preference. I will tell you that stifle single handedly won me probably 4 matches and bob won me many games. If you guys want a report I will do my best. I was extremely sick for the tournament. I lost to sneak and show in the top 8. My opponent had pretty much the nut draws against me.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I went 7-0 then double draw into the top 8 in Columbus. I won't try to argue that stifle is better than hymn because its a personal preference. I will tell you that stifle single handedly won me probably 4 matches and bob won me many games. If you guys want a report I will do my best. I was extremely sick for the tournament. I lost to sneak and show in the top 8. My opponent had pretty much the nut draws against me.

A report would be nice to illustrate your preference for Stifle if you can make it detailed enough. I'd be interested in reading whatever you can muster up though.

[phazonmutant]

A report would be nice to illustrate your preference for Stifle if you can make it detailed enough. I'd be interested in reading whatever you can muster up though.

Seconded. Interesting list.

[Looooooooo]

I went 7-0 then double draw into the top 8 in Columbus. I won't try to argue that stifle is better than hymn because its a personal preference. I will tell you that stifle single handedly won me probably 4 matches and bob won me many games. If you guys want a report I will do my best. I was extremely sick for the tournament. I lost to sneak and show in the top 8. My opponent had pretty much the nut draws against me.

Congrats!
You were a RUG player aren't you :wink: ?
I would be pretty happy to see a report!

- L

[Water_Wizard]

No discard anywhere in the list. It's interesting. I like the list. I may give it a spin when I get time.

[MoonDark]

Hey guys,

I was just wondering... how are we dealing with Jace? I've lost several games against control when they resolve it... we don't have anything against it.

[Cire_dk]

Hey guys,

I was just wondering... how are we dealing with Jace? I've lost several games against control when they resolve it... we don't have anything against it.

Maelstrom Pulse SB is what I tend to go for if disruption and counters are not enough.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Pithing Needle is also good against Jace. Many of the Jace decks have little to no answers to a resolved pithing needle. Jace is th reason I have had pithing needle in many of my sb's for this deck.

[MoonDark]

Pithing Needle is also good against Jace. Many of the Jace decks have little to no answers to a resolved pithing needle. Jace is th reason I have had pithing needle in many of my sb's for this deck.

That makes a lot of sense... the problem with hand-disruption is that Jace decks often pack brainstorm and that doesn't help us very much when resolving hymn.

Will include a Needle in the SB, can totally define a game.

[Water_Wizard]

Needle is also very good against Sensei's Diving Top. Against UW Miracles, I would name SDT over Jace.

EDIT: V. Clique is also a pseudo answer to Jace.

[KobeBryan]

Needle is also very good against Sensei's Diving Top. Against UW Miracles, I would name SDT over Jace.

Definitely...who would name jace unless you are about to win the game and the only thing stopping you is a jace bounce.

[KobeBryan]

1-8 Shai Shaham [Esper Stoneblade] got $42.50 Store Credit
1-8 Daniel Rassiner [4 Color Loam] got $42.50 Store Credit
1-8 William Kang [Death and Taxes] got $42.50 Store Credit
1-8 Charles Scourbys [UW Delver Blade] got $42.50 Store Credit
1-8 Joseph Moreno [Dredge] got $42.50 Store Credit
1-8 Caleb Neufeld [TES] got $42.50 Store Credit
1-8 Thomas Kainz [ANT] got $42.50 Store Credit
1-8 Matt Sarradet [UR Delver Pyromancer] got $42.50 Store Credit

The Rest:
9th Sneak and Show
10th Miracles
11th Shardless BUG
12th Merfolk
13th Sneak and Show
14th Elves!
15th Red Painter
16th Dredge
17th Maverick
18th Delver Blade
19th Team America
20th UB Landstill
21st Madness UG
22nd Elves!
23rd BG Junk
24th Punishing Jund
25th Pox
26th Delver Blade
27th Punishing Jund
28th Punishing Jund
29th Bant Aggro
30th Reanimator
31st Punishing Jund
32nd UBR Delver Pyromancer
33rd Miracle Blade
34th Esper Blade


check out my meta. It looks like I'll be playing thoughtseize over hymn and take out graf to add another surgical.

[Griselpuff]

Lol@ UG Madness

Intuition + Vengevine would be so sweet if there were no DRS...

I'd play 2-3 GY hate spells SB in that meta.

[Que]

I fully support the removal of your Graffdiggers and defy the inclusion of more grave hate as akatsuki has suggested. ;p

- Local boogeyman

[Dragonslayer_90]

I've been wondering whether thoughtseize would be a better MD discard spell since SFM and Griselbrand decks make a good portion of the general meta. Thoughtseize is more consistent against Stoneforge and hymn doesn't seem as good against sneak and show and reanimator since they are mostly two card combo decks so there's always a risk of not hitting the cards that matter than against critical mass combo decks like storm. Or is Hymn just better for the deck's MD game plan? Thoughts? I know Dan Signorini has played Thoughtseize as the MD discard spell in previous iterations of Team America when the meta calls for it.

[KobeBryan]

I've been wondering whether thoughtseize would be a better MD discard spell since SFM and Griselbrand decks make a good portion of the general meta. Thoughtseize is more consistent against Stoneforge and hymn doesn't seem as good against sneak and show and reanimator since they are mostly two card combo decks so there's always a risk of not hitting the cards that matter than against critical mass combo decks like storm. Or is Hymn just better for the deck's MD game plan? Thoughts? I know Dan Signorini has played Thoughtseize as the MD discard spell in previous iterations of Team America when the meta calls for it.

What I hate hymn the most is I cannot cast both hymn and goyf on turn 2. With thoughtseize, i can do that.

[Cire_dk]

What I hate hymn the most is I cannot cast both hymn and goyf on turn 2. With thoughtseize, i can do that.

That is true, but playing a goyf on turn 2 might not be that good anyway since goyf is still very small and can be hit by many things. Disrupting their hand is always usefull even if you o not hit their combo pieces. A Goyf does not help at all against combo. To me Hymn has been good again sneak and show and other combo decks.

[pandaman]

By the time Goyf is ready to swing, there will likely be a land (fetch), sorcery (Thoughtseize), and an instant (some cantrip or counterspell), as well as whatever you took with Thoughtseize, so you are in a place where you have taken their most significant card (or forced them to burn a counter to stop it) and have a probable 4/5 beater. From that position, Goyf, coupled with DRS activations, could become a 3 turn clock. Not too shabby, and a clock like that is always welcome against combo.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Manipulato]

Hey sourcers,
I played RUG the last couple of months but now I wanna switch to the dark side of tempo :wink:
I playtested yesterday the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catcacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
2 Disfigure
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Sylvan Library

I know its a unusual list but I think TNN is a bit more consistent than Stalker especially because Im not so focused on the BB manabase (another reason why I prefer Thoughtseize over Hymn). I like Stalker and he's much faster but you have to board him out a lot because of RIP, Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb, sure some people will board Charm against me but I think the advantage of TNN is bigger than the ones of Stalker. Upping the U count is quite nice too because of FoW.
I think Thoughtseize is in the current meta better than Hymn because I can get rid of Equipment for sure and I dont have to poker or get lucky. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf/Delver or something is also very nice.
19 Lands could be a bit too risky/low but without Lili/Hymn/Stalker MB it should be enough. But will test it.

I tested until now against Sneak Show with 4:3 and against Raffinity with 3:1.
Thoughtseize was great against Sneak Show and picked everytime a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell and the lost games were because of bad hands( not enough creatures to build pressure or manascrewing) or my opponent topdecked a combo piece.
Golgari Charm were bonkers against him, take BG in response then destroy Blood Moon or Sneak Attack or Leyline of Sanctity were great.
Pithing needle is maybe interesting in the board against Top or Sneak and a copy of Krosan Grip against Batterskull etc.

Hope to get input from you guys.

[spector14]

Hey sourcers,
I played RUG the last couple of months but now I wanna switch to the dark side of tempo :wink:
I playtested yesterday the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catcacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Envelop
2 Disfigure
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Sylvan Library

I know its a unusual list but I think TNN is a bit more consistent than Stalker especially because Im not so focused on the BB manabase (another reason why I prefer Thoughtseize over Hymn). I like Stalker and he's much faster but you have to board him out a lot because of RIP, Crypt or Nihil Spellbomb, sure some people will board Charm against me but I think the advantage of TNN is bigger than the ones of Stalker. Upping the U count is quite nice too because of FoW.
I think Thoughtseize is in the current meta better than Hymn because I can get rid of Equipment for sure and I dont have to poker or get lucky. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf/Delver or something is also very nice.
19 Lands could be a bit too risky/low but without Lili/Hymn/Stalker MB it should be enough. But will test it.

I tested until now against Sneak Show with 4:3 and against Raffinity with 3:1.
Thoughtseize was great against Sneak Show and picked everytime a Sneak Attack or Show and Tell and the lost games were because of bad hands( not enough creatures to build pressure or manascrewing) or my opponent topdecked a combo piece.
Golgari Charm were bonkers against him, take BG in response then destroy Blood Moon or Sneak Attack or Leyline of Sanctity were great.
Pithing needle is maybe interesting in the board against Top or Sneak and a copy of Krosan Grip against Batterskull etc.

Hope to get input from you guys.



Hello "manipulato"! Also I think as you do about TNN, then with all the W-based application that is lately is definitely worth trying! I prefer to have the fourth Goyf instead of the second and also disfigure, whereas in the current meta we could find many germs butterskull or mirror with a stalker, I prefer mono dismember! What do you think?

[Manipulato]

Normally I would play 2 Dismember MB & 2 Disfigure SB but with 4 Thoughtseize MD I think the life loss could be too high for my taste. For Game 2+3 we have 2 Lilis in the SB + 2 additional Disfigure to stop SFM or BS or Stalker so it should not that big problem.
4 Goyf 2 TNN would work too but TNN with DS is just that sweet that I want 3 at the moment.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Went 4-0-1 in the swiss rounds today for 1st/27, then won my Top8 match against Affinity and split Top4 with a stock list with dual Liliana main.

SB was:
3 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Envelop
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit (have to get it altered for Creeping Tapir)
1 Surgical Extraction (did not have a real chance to test it, would have been better off as needle maybe, though i did not play against combo)
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique (could be another one in the 75)

My matches were:
2-0 against Canadian
2-0 against MUD
2-1 against Miracles
2-1 against Deathblade
ID with Sneak
2-1 against Affinity in the Top8 to top 4 Split.

I am still etremely pleased with the deck, nothing i'd like to change actually. The maindeck Lilianas are amazing, Tombstalker decided to bot get cast today, but he still has a lot of credit from previous tournements for me, where he wrapped up games like a boss. Delver wasn't amazing either, but he is still necessary ;).

Envelop won me game 2 against Miracles, solid card, same is true for Tar Pit in the midrange matches.

I might try to play 2 Cliques in the Tombstalker spot maybe, but i am not sure if it is actually needed.

[Kowitz]

Hey Everyone! I have been playing this deck for a few weeks now. I usually play TES, but I wanted to also have a fair deck to play, and this was my choice. So far, I absolutely love this deck, maybe more so then storm. I was the only 5-0 at the end of a 5 round legacy event last night. There was no cut to top 8. I played this list. Stock list -1 Abrupt Decay and the flex spots are 2 Lili, 1 sylvan in place of the decay. And 4 verdants, because I didn't have the 3rd delta.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catcacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vendilion Clique

My matches were:

Rd1: Burn
Rd2: Miracles
Rd3: Death and Taxes
Rd4: Manaless Dredge
Rd5: UWR Delver


I have been playing around with the sideboard, and last night, I cut the 3rd golgari charm and a maelstrom pulse for a krosan grip and the 2nd Grafdiggers cage. Which I feel like was a very solid choice. I'm very happy with the deck for now!!

[Grand Superior]

Two copies of Team America in the top 8 of the SCG Open. Jeremy Hsu (featured on camera earlier) and Bob Huang (akatsuki on the Source). Let's wish them luck and hopefully one of them wins it for Team America! :smile:

[deviant]

2 ta in the scg open top8.
Looking promising for akatsuki :)

Also, grats for both. Pity that hatfield turned down the delight of being 3rd TA in the top8 :(

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ran the standard list to a top 8 TCG IQ. Around 50 people. The deck felt unbeatable when it drew well, but I did have some awkws draws.

Round 1: Esper deathblade 2-0. He mulls to 6 game 1, I have 2 wastelands. Game 2 he draws no action and I daze a batterskull.
Round 2: Elves 2-1. Game 1 he gets stranded with Hoof and Regal force in hand. Game 2 he runs me over. Game 3 I have turn 2 liliana. Damn that planeswalker is good.
Round 3: BUG Devler 0-2. Game 1 he has goyf and deathrite advantage. Game 2 I take a risk and surgical his underground sea. He rips two lands in a row and CRUSHES me.
Round 4: BUG Delver 2-1. Game 1 he beats me pretty badly with a baleful strix and eventually pulls through with a tombstalker. Game 2 I draw 4 wastelands (3 in opener!). Game 3 I get an active liliana, which wins me the game.
Round 5: Sam Black Zombies 2-0. Game 1 I have double goyf and FoW/Daze back up. Game 2 I blow him out with a golgari charm hitting gravecrawler, dark confidant, and bloodghast. Dems da breaks.
Round 6: ID

And we chop the top 8.

I hated tombstalker all day and will likely be replacing them with more lilianas/cliques.

['Nilla Pac]

2 ta in the scg open top8.
Looking promising for akatsuki :)

Also, grats for both. Pity that hatfield turned down the delight of being 3rd TA in the top8 :(

Not sure why he didn't attack. Even if you think the other guy has it, your chances of winning that game get worse if you give him turns to dredge.

[H]

Not sure why he didn't attack. Even if you think the other guy has it, your chances of winning that game get worse if you give him turns to dredge.

Yeah, I would have attacked the turn before, where he played the Tombstalker. What does he have that can remove Tombstalker as a blocker? Putting him at 1 takes him off using a fetch too, in case we wanted to. I also think I would have Wasted the Stage, not the Grove, but I am not 100% sure that is right.

[deviant]

Not sure why he didn't attack. Even if you think the other guy has it, your chances of winning that game get worse if you give him turns to dredge.

And the chances of winning go down faster than justin bieber in public prison.

Hopefully akatsuki will write a report of that open.
Also, go Hsu!!

[Razorwynd]

Ran the standard list to a top 8 TCG IQ. Around 50 people. The deck felt unbeatable when it drew well, but I did have some awkws draws.

Round 3: BUG Devler 0-2. Game 1 he has goyf and deathrite advantage. Game 2 I take a risk and surgical his underground sea. He rips two lands in a row and CRUSHES me.

I hated tombstalker all day and will likely be replacing them with more lilianas/cliques.

It was a CRUSHING! I played the Thoughtseize/TNN variant (4-1-1), and was not overly impressed with TNN. Game ones TNN was OK, I always sided them out in anticipation of hate. Such a plan was moderately successful. I could see this slot (TNN/Tombstalker) easily being Cliques/Lilianas/Disfigures. I was overly impressed by Thoughtseize for what it is worth.

[Manipulato]

Do you guys really find Hymn better than Thoughtseize in that slot? It would be great to hear your experiences in the past, especially if you guys replace that hymn with Thoughtseize mentally in past games...
In my opinion Hymn is much more of a Midrange/Value card and TA is more of an Tempo deck which Thoughtseize probably fits better. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf, or Turn 1 DS + Turn 2 Seize + Goyf/Decay or whatever sound really nice to have and it will always pick the most important card in the opponents hand + it gives you the really important information about his hand (like Gitaxian Probe).

By the way: How many games did you guys won with Tombstalker where TNN would have lost the games? Would be interesting to know because I´m currently testing TNN vs Stalker.

Greetings

[Grand Superior]

For me, Hymn is just backbreaking against almost every deck and making them discard lands really helps the tempo game. I also agree with those that say that Thoughtseize is just a bit too polite for what we're trying to do, whereas Hymn's two-for-one can just straight out win games. There are some situations when Thoughtseize is better (such as against Batterskull or Show and Tell) but I prefer keeping Thoughtseize for postboard games against those decks as supplemental disruption.

And I prefer Tombstalker over True-Name Nemesis simply because Golgari Charm is a fantastic sideboard card right now and running Tombstalker lets you make it one-sided. Running TNN also makes double-black awkward, which makes it harder to cast incredible cards like Liliana of the Veil and Hymn. TNN does make you less reliant on the graveyard and ups your blue count for Force of Will, but I think Tombstalker is the way to go.

[Manipulato]

For me, Hymn is just backbreaking against almost every deck and making them discard lands really helps the tempo game. I also agree with those that say that Thoughtseize is just a bit too polite for what we're trying to do, whereas Hymn's two-for-one can just straight out win games. There are some situations when Thoughtseize is better (such as against Batterskull or Show and Tell) but I prefer keeping Thoughtseize for postboard games against those decks as supplemental disruption.

And I prefer Tombstalker over True-Name Nemesis simply because Golgari Charm is a fantastic sideboard card right now and running Tombstalker lets you make it one-sided. Running TNN also makes double-black awkward, which makes it harder to cast incredible cards like Liliana of the Veil and Hymn. TNN does make you less reliant on the graveyard and ups your blue count for Force of Will, but I think Tombstalker is the way to go.

You have to board out Stalker against some decks too because of RIP, against decks where I expect Charm to see you board him out too. But for example against UWR (which is very popular right now) you can let TNN in and should Stalker board out. Against decks like elves you can cut TNN and bring in Charms and against Esperblade Stalker can get hosed by Jace bounce, STP or RIP where TNN only gets killed by Zealous Persecution. So its a tight race between them...

I played a bit and even with 3 TNN I think the U count in the deck is with 20 cards (23 with TNN) very small, so FoW gets a bit worse (maybe I´m a bit spoiled as a RUG Delver player :wink:).
I dont want to play that deck to clunky and more tempo like. Will test 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Disfigure in the 4 Hymn 2 Lili slot a bit. But maybe I will come back and play the mainstream list because I was wrong :wink:

[Thorhammer]

Congrats to Jeremy and Bob on the top 8 finish! Interesting sideboard there. Sylvan to the board and more grips and Cliques for less charms. And no cage? Hoping to just dodge the elves, dredge and reanimator? I'm excited to read a report!

[KobeBryan]

Do you guys really find Hymn better than Thoughtseize in that slot? It would be great to hear your experiences in the past, especially if you guys replace that hymn with Thoughtseize mentally in past games...
In my opinion Hymn is much more of a Midrange/Value card and TA is more of an Tempo deck which Thoughtseize probably fits better. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf, or Turn 1 DS + Turn 2 Seize + Goyf/Decay or whatever sound really nice to have and it will always pick the most important card in the opponents hand + it gives you the really important information about his hand (like Gitaxian Probe).

By the way: How many games did you guys won with Tombstalker where TNN would have lost the games? Would be interesting to know because I´m currently testing TNN vs Stalker.

Greetings

Thoughtseize helps deal with the blades. Other than that, I would go Hymn

[Griselpuff]

I think I'll be writing something up for SCG so stay tuned! :cool:

It was really cool meeting three or four people who picked up the deck because of my CFB article. Jeremy was one who was converted :smile:

[Dragonslayer_90]

Congrats to Jeremy and Bob on the top 8 finish! Interesting sideboard there. Sylvan to the board and more grips and Cliques for less charms. And no cage? Hoping to just dodge the elves, dredge and reanimator? I'm excited to read a report!

Same. Congrats to Bob and Jeremy. Glad to see Team's starting put up the results it deserves. Seems like enough people are playing in the States for it to Top 8 SCG tournaments consistently now. I know the commentators mentioned how the deck's popularity has increased a lot in recent weeks.

[Razorwynd]

Do you guys really find Hymn better than Thoughtseize in that slot? It would be great to hear your experiences in the past, especially if you guys replace that hymn with Thoughtseize mentally in past games...
In my opinion Hymn is much more of a Midrange/Value card and TA is more of an Tempo deck which Thoughtseize probably fits better. Turn 1 Seize Turn 2 Goyf, or Turn 1 DS + Turn 2 Seize + Goyf/Decay or whatever sound really nice to have and it will always pick the most important card in the opponents hand + it gives you the really important information about his hand (like Gitaxian Probe).

By the way: How many games did you guys won with Tombstalker where TNN would have lost the games? Would be interesting to know because I´m currently testing TNN vs Stalker.

Greetings

I like Thoughtseize because:

(1) it is cheaper and easier to cast

(2) it targeted discard

(3) it provides valuable information about the opponents hand

These are all pretty obvious. In fact in many match ups, Thoughtseize is my preferred turn one play. It give you so much information for how to proceed with the game. The two cards are so incredible different I think they completely change how the deck is played.

But clearly lots of people are having HUGE success with Hymn.

[Manipulato]

I think I'll be writing something up for SCG so stay tuned! :cool:

It was really cool meeting three or four people who picked up the deck because of my CFB article. Jeremy was one who was converted :smile:

Hi,
gratz to your finishing!
Where can I read that CFB article?

Greetings

[SirTylerGalt]

Hi,
gratz to your finishing!
Where can I read that CFB article?

Greetings

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/team-america-in-dc-top-16/


I'm also happy about the good showings of TA. I couldn't watch the stream because my GF was at home and hates Magic, but I was still able to peek at the round 7 standings and was happy to see you near the top with 18 points :)

[phazonmutant]

Congrats to all the Team America players who have been doing well with the archetype! I played in a 6-round side event at GP Vancouver and went 4-2. I definitely have some bad beat stories from those two losses, but other than getting unlucky I felt like my play, the list, and the decks metagame positioning were all very good.

Before I start, I want to talk about something a ton of people having been debating - Hymn vs. Thoughtseize. This reflects a lack of understanding about this deck's role - what battle it's trying to fight. I would never play fewer than 3 in the main. This deck has tempo draws where you ride one or two creatures to victory, but it's more often that you simply trade resources more efficiently than your opponent and then can ride your low curve and cheap threats to victory. What does that have to do with Hymn? Thoughtseize is good if one spell is key to their hand - combo is obvious, but equipment and a disrupting a curve are also considerations. However, it comes at the cost of 2 life and a mana. Hymn is good at breaking up resilient strategies - if you can get them topdecking, your low land count, cantrips, and cheap answers and threats will carry the day. Strategically, Team America is not excellent at ending the game by turn 5, it's excellent at forcing the opponent to be topdecking answers while on the back foot for 10 turns. Another consideration - we have Force of Will for pinpoint disruption against a combo deck for example. However, even decks that rely on a single spell are resilient given sufficient resources to rebuild. Hymn and Force work well together in that regard. Now on to the report.

My list looks a little different from the stock (akatsuki) list (belated shout outs for your great article about GP DC), but it's basically just preboarded.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
1 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Winter Orb

I know, I just spent a paragraph explaining why Hymn is better, but I'm preboarding Thoughtseize? To be fair, the argument for Thoughtseize has some merit - the deck's curve is a little high and clunky with 8 critical 2-drops (Decay, Goyf, Hymn). At least where I'm at, Force of Will is not very good and there's a ton of Stoneblade and Elves decks - perfect for Disfigure + Thoughtseize.
Winter Orb used to be the hot tech against Stoneblade, Miracles, and Jund, not sure why it dropped off the radar. I'm trying it out. So far I either haven't drawn it or it drew a Thoughtseize / counterspell and would have been backbreaking.


Round 1 - Sneak & Show
G1 - he struggles to have 2 lands in play after I Waste a Volcanic, and a couple of Hymns put the game away.
-2 Disfigure, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Liliana, -2 Tombstalker, -1 Bayou; +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Force, +1 Clique, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 Krosan Grip
If I destroy his Leyline of Sanctity, my discard will be live, and sometimes I'll be able to snipe a Sneak Attack.
G2 - He cantrips, I drop Sea and pass with only Brainstorm and Daze as protection. He pushes with City into Show and Tell, and I Brainstorm (finding Deathrite, a second Daze, and a Force), then Daze. I drop Deathrite, then Force his next Show and Tell and Daze his Sneak Attack. He life tilts.
1-0

Round 2 - D@n with TinFins
G1 - I know the matchup and keep Deathrite, Daze, Waste, and some junk. He plays Island into cantrip, I drop Deathrite. He plays Lotus Petal and Brainstorms. I Daze. He pays. He finds a land and the other pieces and wins.
-2 Disfigure, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 Tombstalker; +1 Force, +3 Pierce, +1 Clique. He might be on the Show and Tell sideboard so Lili isn't the stone worst, and Decay usually has some targets (Needle). I wish I had more cards to bring in, but didn't play a Cage today.
G2 - He has an awkward draw with a land into a cantrip, but no Entomb or discard spell to pair with the Griselbrand in hand. I had mulliganed to 5 looking for lands. He Needled Deathrite, I Decayed it, then he Needled it again and finally found the Entomb at 2 life. He permanented and 15'd me with Emrakul, but a land I had Dazed and the Deathrite on top carried the day.
G3 - My 7 on the draw: Deathrite, Decay, Daze, Sea, Waste, 2x fetches. I think it's a keep - if I get a turn, I can probably get a second turn with Daze, and then Deathrite + Decay should be good. He killed me on turn 1.
1-1

Round 3 - Jund
All these games are extremely grindy. It's not really worth doing a blow-by-blow. He wins G1, then I win G2-3 because I turn into a better Jund deck than him postboard. Lower curve and cantrips help make topdecking fall in my favor. I win in 3 games.
-3 Force, -3 Daze (draw) / -2 Daze (play), -2 Thoughtseize; +1 Decay, +1 Disfigure, +1 Lili, +1 Clique, +1 Creeping Tar Pit, +1 Winter Orb, +2 Pierce (draw)
Thoughtseize is not good against the top-deck-war'ing redundant deck. Daze sets you too far behind on the draw, but is fine on the play.
2-1

Round 4 - Bg Pox
G1 - He drops a t1 Sylvan Library off 2 Mox Diamonds and leverages that to Smallpox and Decay the first 4 or 5 creatures I play, paying life a couple times. I finally stick a Goyf and ride it all the way.
-1 Force, -3 Hymn, -2 Disfigure, -1 Liliana; +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Decay, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Creeping Tar Pit, +1 Clique
(I think. He's reliant on artifacts, but he's a graveyard deck that capitalizes on Smallpox. Hymn and Lili are bad, he has no creatures so Disfigure is bad. The rest is just the least bad.)
G2 - He decides to play around Daze by not casting Lili, so he kills a guy with Smallpox, but he's on Swamp, Mox Diamond. I drop Deathrite, Delver, and then Decay his Diamond next turn. I make an army and he can't recover fast enough.
3-1

Round 5 - BUG Delver (with True Name)
Another Jund mirror. Again it's pretty grindy, although I have to play tight and sequence correctly to win. True Name does just about nothing except force me to board in 2 of the rather marginal Golgari Charms. He also boarded in Charm, although I have no clue why. Boarding was like Jund, except all the Dazes come out on the play, no Winter Orb, and 2 Charms come in. I win in 2 games (I think...).
4-1

Round 6 - Elves
G1 - I Disfigure an elf, Waste an Arbor, kill another couple elves, then beat down.
-3 Force, -4 Daze, -3 Hymn; +3 Pierce, +1 Decay, +1 Disfigure, +3 Charm, +1 Submerge, +1 Clique
They rely on spells like GSZ, Glimpse, and NO, so Pierce is fine. Daze is awful because they can so easily play around it t3+ and before that you can't afford to pick up lands given how important our 2-drop spells are. Hymn is too slow - they quickly dump their hand and you can't afford to not kill something on turn 2. Lili sucks, but don't have more cards to bring in.
G2 - He floods the board and I can only kill a guy or two. My Daze does nothing against his Cradle into Natural Order.
G3 - I mulligan to 4 looking for lands and still don't find any. Mathematically I think that 3 is not better than hoping to spike my first draw step or two. With a win, I'm locked for t4, and I feel confident in this matchup (lots of experience) and against my opponent (little experience). Needless to say, I'm pretty tilted that all of my losses were basically out of my control.
4-2

So that was my experience at GP Vancouver. Shout outs to sdematt for being a gent, and the Canadians for making hilarious money.

[sdematt]

So that was my experience at GP Vancouver. Shout outs to sdematt for being a gent, and the Canadians for making hilarious money.

Glad you enjoyed it. BTW, there are some Russian Deathrites calling your name ;)

-Matt

[Razorwynd]

Before I start, I want to talk about something a ton of people having been debating - Hymn vs. Thoughtseize. This reflects a lack of understanding about this deck's role - what battle it's trying to fight.

Um… is this a subtle way of saying that uninformed people should stop bringing up the debate? Or, are you trying to say that the two cards change what role the deck takes in any given game?



This deck has tempo draws where you ride one or two creatures to victory, but it's more often that you simply trade resources more efficiently than your opponent and then can ride your low curve and cheap threats to victory.


That is because the stock list (I am assuming that is what you are referring to here) is playing 4 more two drops and 4 less one drops. Making the swap to Thoughtseize allows you to actually play the tempo game.

A common situation in the tempo mirror would be to cast Thoughtseize with only two mana (playing around daze) and take removal (Abrupt decay or Swords to Plowshare) or a Goyf/Stoneforge. Thoughseize confirms that they have daze. Play around daze and land threat which you can uses to try to take over the game.

It is situations like these where the difference between the tempo of thought seize and the value of Hymn are very apparent. Currently, I tend to prefer the tempo.

Now, I am not saying one is better than the other. They are both conditionally good, and I feel like the time is ripe for Thoughtseizes.

[deviant]

Um… is this a subtle way of saying that uninformed people should stop bringing up the debate? Or, are you trying to say that the two cards change what role the deck takes in any given game?



That is because the stock list (I am assuming that is what you are referring to here) is playing 4 more two drops and 4 less one drops. Making the swap to Thoughtseize allows you to actually play the tempo game.

A common situation in the tempo mirror would be to cast Thoughtseize with only two mana (playing around daze) and take removal (Abrupt decay or Swords to Plowshare) or a Goyf/Stoneforge. Thoughseize confirms that they have daze. Play around daze and land threat which you can uses to try to take over the game.

It is situations like these where the difference between the tempo of thought seize and the value of Hymn are very apparent. Currently, I tend to prefer the tempo.

Now, I am not saying one is better than the other. They are both conditionally good, and I feel like the time is ripe for Thoughtseizes.

Every time my opponent plays thoughtseize in TA mirror I do this "self five" thing as he just used a mana, card and 2 life to end up taking my hymn most likely. I would rather resolve probe there.
Started keeping track of my matches online. Last 50 I'm having a 72,5 win%
The deck being more known and actually represented in the online meta makes it harder to win as much as before.

[Razorwynd]

Every time my opponent plays thoughtseize in TA mirror I do this "self five" thing as he just used a mana, card and 2 life to end up taking my hymn most likely. I would rather resolve probe there.
Started keeping track of my matches online. Last 50 I'm having a 72,5 win%
The deck being more known and actually represented in the online meta makes it harder to win as much as before.

There you have it… the debate is over.

[Thorhammer]

There you have it… the debate is over.

Hymn to Tourach is our only real way of generating card advantage over our opponent. RUG delver generates card advantage by playing stifle and stranding uncastable cards in their opponents hands. UWR Delver blade generates card advantage via stoneforge mystic. Hymn and Liliana is how we do it. At the end of the day, Thoughtseize is still just a one for one. I believe Thoughtseize is much better in a Jund type of deck where you can afford to one for one them out of the game because you have card advantage engines like Dark Confidant and Punishing Fire.
If the name of the game is card advantage, Hymn is the way to go in Team america.

[Arcadia]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
1 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Winter Orb


2 disfigures and 3 abrupt decay make no sense at all. You're reducing your chances of destroying lots of things, with something that is not so important. I would run morethan 4 decays if I could.

Thoughtseize vs Hymn: Hymn is unfair, and thoughtseize is not. "T1 thoughtseize, T2 tarmogoyf" : I rather do T1 delver / shaman. You win much more games starting with a creature than with an spell.

[rluca]

hey
do u guys play usually delver over DRS first turn i think there are several thinks that matters if yes or no could u give me a help

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

[Thorhammer]

hey
do u guys play usually delver over DRS first turn i think there are several thinks that matters if yes or no could u give me a help

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk



99 times out of 100 I'll play shaman over delver. The only time I play delver first is if I have no turn two plays or something like a double delver hand. But Deathrite is almost always the correct T1 play since it leads to turn two shenanigans like Wasteland/Hymn to Tourach, Hymn to Tourach/Delver, Tarmogoyf protected from daze, Liliana of the Veil, Delver/brainstorm/fetch/wasteland etc.

[deviant]

hey
do u guys play usually delver over DRS first turn i think there are several thinks that matters if yes or no could u give me a help

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

99% of the time I lead with drs.
It provides more possibilities of broken openings and hedges against waste etc.
The corner cases where I lead with delver involve: drs not helping me with pressure (need to keep up pierce w/mana to pay for daze) and not having hymn in hand. In other words - when setting clock up is of utmost importance and the hand+mu make this decision, you just obey.
If you do not have a fetch in hand and are up f.e. omnitell -> delver seems more appealing than usual.

Remember children, we are a terrible delver deck - try to not play the deck like you would play rug or even uwr.

Sent from phone, while drunk. Cheers.

[KobeBryan]

Hymn to Tourach is our only real way of generating card advantage over our opponent. RUG delver generates card advantage by playing stifle and stranding uncastable cards in their opponents hands. UWR Delver blade generates card advantage via stoneforge mystic. Hymn and Liliana is how we do it. At the end of the day, Thoughtseize is still just a one for one. I believe Thoughtseize is much better in a Jund type of deck where you can afford to one for one them out of the game because you have card advantage engines like Dark Confidant and Punishing Fire.
If the name of the game is card advantage, Hymn is the way to go in Team america.

You can't say that. Thoughtseize is pretty critical against sfm decks when you need to get rid of batterskull or a jitte before it goes out of control.

[rluca]

thanks alot guys
after a long legacy break i have to test for GP paris i started things off with uwr delver but i dont like it bug seems better and i like abrupt decay so yesterday i went 3-1 in an 14 man event only loss to a strange tezzeret deck but the deck is alot of fun to play and really strong

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

[rluca]

i won 2-0 each against punisching jund esper stoneblade and merfolk
the sideboard advices from bob huang helped me alot i had 2/2 split between charms and kgrip bit changed to 3 charms i dont know if a second clique is better then creeping tar pit

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

[phazonmutant]

2 disfigures and 3 abrupt decay make no sense at all. You're reducing your chances of destroying lots of things, with something that is not so important. I would run morethan 4 decays if I could.

Thoughtseize vs Hymn: Hymn is unfair, and thoughtseize is not. "T1 thoughtseize, T2 tarmogoyf" : I rather do T1 delver / shaman. You win much more games starting with a creature than with an spell.

There are some matchups where Decay is excellent, like against Countertop or Pox. There are some matchups where it's about on par with Disfigure - it can't be countered and hits Jitte from the Stoneblade decks, but Disfigure helps the curve and allows you to save your Decays for the equipment / bigger threats. Then there are some matchups where Decay is actively worse than Disfigure - Elves and UWR Delver for example, it's imperative to be mana-efficient.

Obviously a creature is better on the play against most decks, but Daze, Wasteland, and Thoughtseize play well together. Also, I clearly agree that Thoughtseize is not better than Hymn. But if you read my argument above, the reason I preboarded these 4 one-drops is because of metagame and curve considerations.