[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[BackDr0p]

Pact cannot answer a T1 Lackey.

[eirirlar]

Just a crazy idea:

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Snuff Out
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
4 Sinkhole
4 U. Sea
9 UGB Fetchlands
2 Trop Island
2 Bayou

Comments?

[NesretepNoj]

@ eirirlar: What do you wan't us to comment on? Isn't Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker infinitely better than Quirion Dryad? Are your planning to Stifle Pact's upkeep-trigger? You run Stifle and Sinkhole, but no Wastelands?

[say no to scurvy]

The 4-of summoner pacts are just total wtf-are-you-thinking inclusions

[eirirlar]

The 4-of summoner pacts are just total wtf-are-you-thinking inclusions

Agreed that was just random. 4 Lim duls vault should do the trick of finding or boosting dryad though.

Admittedly I haven't tested dryads in this deck but i'm inclined to. And it hasn't been discussed in this thread before. Tombstalker and goyf do have somewhat contradicting abilities although theyre both good on their own. Question is, with all the counters discard and mana denial, is it possible that dryad could be just as good or better than goyf?

[eirirlar]

@ eirirlar: Isn't Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker infinitely better than Quirion Dryad?
Don't know yet. Dryad can get large. Tombstalker eats goyfs food.


You run Stifle and Sinkhole, but no Wastelands?
Yeah I thought sinkholes would be better since they grow dryad and as there's not too much to use wastelands colorless mana on.

Regarding stifle, and forgive my ignorance if this has been brought up before, if its main use (?) in this deck is to stop wastelands and fetches, isn't interdict a possible replacement? Its more limited but produces card advantage.

[CorpT]

Don't know yet. Dryad can get large. Tombstalker eats goyfs food.


Yeah I thought sinkholes would be better since they grow dryad and as there's not too much to use wastelands colorless mana on.

Regarding stifle, and forgive my ignorance if this has been brought up before, if its main use (?) in this deck is to stop wastelands and fetches, isn't interdict a possible replacement? Its more limited but produces card advantage.

No offense, but you should play the stock deck longer before trying to change it. These suggestions are terrible. TA doesn't win by using bad cards like Summoner's Pact and Q Dryad. It wins by casting a 5/6 for 2 or a 5/5 flyer for 2.

Take out the bad cards and Sinkhole and replace with the normal, good creatures and work in Jace.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I t8ed the RIT event. Coming soon, a chronicle of debauchery and wizardry starring myself, rsaunder, nick and warden.

[sa17dk]

Sweet, looking forward to it.

Whats the general consensus on Sylvan Library in the deck?

I have no idea on what I want in my sideboard. I've been running a 20 card sideboard for testing purposes but still havent decided. Here's what I'm thinking for now:

2 Engineered Plague
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Dispel/Spell Pierce/Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pernicious Deed

[nitewolf9]

I t8ed the RIT event. Coming soon, a chronicle of debauchery and wizardry starring myself, rsaunder, nick and warden.

Nice work. I assume a whip was ghost rode?

[GGoober]

I'm thinking of resurrecting my old Dreadstalker build that was discarded a long while back but I think it might have some chance in the meta again since the reprinting of spell pierce.

Just a list to share out, since it fits in the TA playstyle of mana denial + disruption + tempo. The idea is big beats:

TA Big Beats:

Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Beaters:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Cantrips/counters/disruption
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm

SB:
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
8 metaslots (Hymn to Tourach, Spell Pierce, Rushing Rivers, Submerge, Mind Harness whatever)


The philosophy is:
1) Tempo tempo tempo. If you fail this e.g. CB resolving, Pridemages resolving, Moat resolving, you failed the deck.
2) Your creatures are the biggest and most efficient in Legacy: Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Goyf, therefore all you care is them resolving, beating and staying protected, therefore 4 Daze + 3 Pierce is a must against any form of removal. Spell Snare is there mainly to counter the biggest weaknesses of the deck: Counterbalance, Survival, Pridemage, etc
3) Use your stifles on lands most of the time. Vision Charm in the old dreadstalker build was a good utility card that fueled Tombstalkers, acted as stifle 4-6 for Dreadnoughts, and can tempo a turn by converting opponents lands to Mountains during upkeep.

I have been wanting to remake this deck again, after realizing that Spell Pierce MD performs even more crucially than in classic TA lists. Since you have the additional dreadnought as a win-condition, all you care about is countering any removal that targets the nought, so Spell Pierce MD becomes a litte more relevant than in classical TA lists. Obviously with the inclusion of Dreadnought, you are more prone to hate and relying on nought to win games BUT if you're playing it in this manner on relying on nought to win games, you are playing the deck wrong, i.e. my point above to use stifles on lands at any chance, instead of sandbagging for dreadnought (you still have tombstalkers and goyfs to beat).

If they are boarding grips against Nought, then that's super, take out 3 noughts post-board against grips.dec and put in more tempo cards. Their MD is now jankier and weaker with artifact hate and you proceed to beatdown with the classic TA lists.

[keys]

It's not a bad idea, and Spell Pierce should be an automatic 4-of. Though I think the Spell Snares are unnecessary if you're running Pierces. Trinket Mage makes sense to me because it can also get a singleton EE. I wouldn't play more than 1 Charm... it's definitely the worst card in the deck. Serving as the 5th Stifle isn't bad, though. You'd end up with something like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Vision Charm

3 Snuff Out
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

I also added another land and switched some duals. I wouldn't drop below 20.

[GGoober]

I like the suggestion, it's a more safety-measure zone with Trinket Mage/EE.

However, if I was really that worried with things that are not dealt with, I'd just go 2 EE since it's too slow for a tempo deck to go TRinket Mage-> EE, athough mage does fetch Dreadnought.

I feel that in the game 1, you just really want to create THE solid tempo deck and board in according to the matchups to cover the weaknesses. Spell Snare is weaker in today's meta, but I feel that it hits every weakness this deck faces: Counterbalance, Pridemage and still provides tempo against opposing goyfs/survivals/bobs.

To be a true tempo deck, I feel that Bob needs to be involved since TStalker sometimes doesn't come online on turn 2 as much as we want, but the success of this deck is the fast clock when you can disrupt their removal or answers. I will definitely consider some EE in the SB though. Looks like a solid list, I'll see if I like the 4th Ponder and 4th pierce over the Snares. I have a feeling that 3/3 split does better for this deck (with dreadnought). I've been trying to squeeze 2 cliques in (4 goyfs, 4 stalkers, 3 dreadnought, 2 cliques) making it very threat dense and mana efficient, but I'm not sure what's worth cutting. I'm always tempted to play a tempo deck with no removal but that's a huge risk in not making a mistake and not losing to bad draws and risk your opponents getting a creature through that slows you a couple of turns.

On Vision Charm: this was testing done a long tme ago when I had the deck but with:
3 Dreadnoughts, 2 Charms works best
2 Dreadnought, 1 charm works best

I prefer to play 3 Nought just to get the oops-I-win factor, For 4 Stalkers, 3 Noughts, 2 Charm is the perfect amount to fuel either Nought/Stalker. Even with its change-land-type ability, it's a great ability (weakest argubly) since it often acts like a Chant-effect against certain decks, and it also provides a safety against Merfolk (if the board gets that ugly). It usually buys a turn regardless against certain decks and that's pretty crucial when you're beating on a clock with a tempo deck. I would not underrate it too far. Now, in regular TA without noughts, obviously it's a bad choice, but in this situation, it will free up the use of Stifles on just Noughts, and allow the mature player playing the deck to use Stifles in situations that are most relevant. Trickbind used to be tested in my list, but there's a BIG difference between 2cc and 1cc for this deck.

Something that's a pain is always Chalice/Trinisphere, but at least those decks aren't too popular right now. Wastelock is always a problem, but you are usually the one with the land advantage early game. I guess against aggro loam.decs you can just go for a fast clock hand and keep any relevant counters against their removals and ride a single creature (probably not goyf) to victory.

I'm piecing the deck back together and would like to playtest and provide some matchup results in due time.

[keys]

Pierce hits most of the problematic cards Snare does like Counterbalance and Survival, plus more: all the removal in the format, all the counters in the format, Blood Moon, Chalice, planeswalkers (Jace!), Natural Order... etc.

It's way more effective than Spell Snare at protecting your threats and yourself. You already have answers to Goyf with your own creatures and Snuff Out. You can still stifle Pridemage, as well. I went down to 2 Nought/1 Trinket Mage and cut a Charm because, as you said, Stifles are better used on lands if you have the opportunity.

Nought is good for the surprise I-Win factor when you have protection (Pierce facilitates this), or when Stifles are dead on their own, but it's not a great primary game plan. Trinket Mage gives you the flexibility to tutor one up, or go for your EE (against a resolved Chalice or zombie tokens, for example) as the situation requires.

[Whit3 Ghost]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18823-The-Moustachio-Bashio-An-RIT-Top-Eight-Report&p=488654

The weekend report.

I think 9 threats/10 cantrips is the way to go. I also didn't have Jace in the board (would have played it over a Predator and something else) because Warden was playing them. They wouldn't have been relevant in any of my matchups though.

[lorddotm]

Just a crazy idea:

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Snuff Out
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
4 Sinkhole
4 U. Sea
9 UGB Fetchlands
2 Trop Island
2 Bayou

Comments?


I want to force your stifle after you pact, I don't even play a Force deck.

[Scordata]

Hey I'm not sure if this has been answered before, but what's the deal with Predict?

I can't fathom why you would run that spell over another cantrip, or even hand disruption.

The only benefit I can imagine is after a Brainstorm/Ponder, you predict the crap card into your GY,
then draw some hopefully good spells, and feed Stalker/Goyf.

That seems awfully techy for a deck that wants to leave mana open for removal/denial/cantrips.

Maybe I'm missing something?

[keys]

That seems awfully techy for a deck that wants to leave mana open for removal/denial/cantrips.

Maybe I'm missing something?

Well it's an instant, so you can leave the mana open. It's got that going for it. Still, I agree it's a bad topdeck and normally requires Ponder or Brainstorm to be advantageous. If you want more draw, Preordain digs just as deep and isn't situational.

Predict was probably better when Mystical was in the format.

[Scordata]

Actually I never had problems with just BS/Ponder and fetches.
Also I run 2 Venn Cliques, so sometimes I can get rid of the useless Snuff Out when facing monoblack or something.

A single See Beyond might be better than that, but with Hymns MD I feel like card advantage is a non-issue.

[KevinTrudeau]

Hey I'm not sure if this has been answered before, but what's the deal with Predict?

I can't fathom why you would run that spell over another cantrip, or even hand disruption.

The only benefit I can imagine is after a Brainstorm/Ponder, you predict the crap card into your GY,
then draw some hopefully good spells, and feed Stalker/Goyf.

That seems awfully techy for a deck that wants to leave mana open for removal/denial/cantrips.

Maybe I'm missing something?

The thing is, a lot of spells Team America casts (eleven if you run 4 Daze, 4 FoW, and 3 Snuff Out) are free, so you don't need to leave mana up to be able to cast them unless fearing tempo counters like Spell Pierce and the aforementioned Daze. Predict is a sweet card because it does exactly what you said it does- gets rid of a worthless draw, draws two, and bins two cards for Stalker for just two mana. In my limited testing, Predict has been one of my favorite cards in the deck. It's not more than a two-of, but it gets the job done.

[keys]

It can be great sometimes, but does the deck really need the card advantage? You could just play Sign in Blood.

[NesretepNoj]

It can be great sometimes, but does the deck really need the card advantage? You could just play Sign in Blood.

Sign in Blood
Pros: Unconditional
Cons: Life-loss, black, sorcery

Predict
Pros: Blue (pitches to FoW), instant, synergy with stalker (bins two cards), good against Lim-Dûl's Vault and Doomsday
Cons: Conditional card advantage, but can always "cycle" itself

[sa17dk]

I'd rather play Night's Whisper over either of those.

[Scordata]

Just an FYI, I went 4-0 last week with this:

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tropical Island
1 [U] Bayou
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Snuff Out
2 [FNM] Smother
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FNM] Smother
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

Leading with a Verdant Catacombs is amazing for bluffing Stifle/Daze.
The only card I've been tapping out to cast is Hymn. If they Daze it, it's worth the tempo trade, plus they are down a counter.
I've tested it a million times, and come to the conclusion that Sinkhole just doesn't cut the mustard anymore.

Ponder is the MVP of the deck, IMO.
Spell Peirce is probably number two.

[sa17dk]

Sylvan Library has been underwhelming for me. I basically end up using it as an expensive Mirri's Guile. Should I be more aggressive with it? I'm thinking of replacing it with Preordain or a Smother.

Spell Pierce has been good to me as well.

Running 2 EE in the main has been okay.

[Scordata]

Grats on 3rd place Dan.

Any comments on the match-ups?

[nitewolf9]

Thanks, I actually lost to enchantress in the Swiss and should have beaten vengevine in the semis, but we prize split and my brain shut down. I beat both of those decks in different rounds as well and never really felt behind on the day. Ee should probably completely replace pulse, but I'm trying a 2/1 split of ee and pulse now. Hymn was very good but could be pierce or snare simply because of how many survival decks there seem to be now. This deck is very, very strong. I thought merfolk was way worse but with needle in the board it is very manageable. Anyway, thats all I got.

[keys]

I think you should run at least 3 Extirpate, now that Vengevine and Loam are everywhere. I agree that Needle is probably the best card outside of red against Merfolk and Goblins.

In what matchups did you [plan to] board in BEB and Jace?

[fdiv_bug]

Hymn was very good but could be pierce or snare simply because of how many survival decks there seem to be now.

I like changing Hymn to Snare, especially now that Merfolk is running such a high percentage of two-drop creatures; it's a matchup that tends to give me trouble, in large part because of just how prevalent it's become.

What's your (or anyone else's, for that matter) stance on Pernicious Deed versus Engineered Explosives?

[nitewolf9]

I think you should run at least 3 Extirpate, now that Vengevine and Loam are everywhere. I agree that Needle is probably the best card outside of red against Merfolk and Goblins.

In what matchups did you [plan to] board in BEB and Jace?

Extirpate is not really as good as you would think against vengevine survival, at least it's not as good as needle. Shutting down survival makes them a lot easier to beat, and needle also helps to stop the jitte/shitty aggro plan very well. Loam is not everywhere.

BEB is for faster zoo builds and sligh/burn decks, as well as giving you more options vs goblins (although I don't think it is necessary for this matchup). Jace is for control decks/counterbalance with tons of removal.


I like changing Hymn to Snare, especially now that Merfolk is running such a high percentage of two-drop creatures; it's a matchup that tends to give me trouble, in large part because of just how prevalent it's become.

What's your (or anyone else's, for that matter) stance on Pernicious Deed versus Engineered Explosives?

Hymn might still be correct, but Snare definitely will help vs the vengevine decks. Deed is much too slow and requires you to hit your 3rd land drop. Being able to split up the cost to wipe 1 drops is actually quite good, even though Deed can certainly blow certain archetypes out. I'm mainly concerned with speed vs Zoo decks and merfolk and EE fits the bill.

[keys]

Needle on Survival is great, for sure, but they have multiple discard outlets, and some even play Intuition, so Needle can't be your only plan. Once you Extirpate 'Vine, they're just playing bad U/G Madness circa 2006. That really changes the matchup.

Maybe I exaggerated when I said Loam was everywhere, but it has had a resurgence. Aggro Loam is back at the top tables, people are experimenting with Loam control again, and Lands! is still a contender.

Not to mention Extirpate is also helpful if you run into Reanimator or Dredge. I would take out the BEB's for Extirpates unless Burn is really popular in your meta. It doesn't really hit any of Zoo's creatures except Lavamancer. Then fit another EE into the board to help with Goblins. FWIW, I've been playing 3 Snuff Out, 2 EE, 1 Pulse maindeck and it's worked pretty well for me.

[GtF]

Way to go Dan! Of course the first match report I read, you blind hit on a predict. No wonder you like that card so much :P

[nitewolf9]

I actually hit another blind predict earlier in the tournament, also naming brainstorm :).

[Meekrab]

I'd rather play Night's Whisper over either of those.
Seriously. The only downside is that Night's Whisper can't be used to kill someone who's at 2 life.

[Scordata]

An idea I've been flirting with for a while is throwing like 3 Vamp Hexmages in the board.
Has anyone tried this?
I feel like Force of Will isn't always the best answer to Jace.

Plus, first strike! Eat it goblins/merfolk.

[keys]

An idea I've been flirting with for a while is throwing like 3 Vamp Hexmages in the board.
Has anyone tried this?
I feel like Force of Will isn't always the best answer to Jace.

Plus, first strike! Eat it goblins/merfolk.

Pulse and Needle work pretty well as Jace killers.

[Scordata]

You guys should also look into Darkblast.
I run 1 in the main now.
Removal recursion, food for stalker, and helps you win the goyf wars.

[sa17dk]

Just an FYI, I went 4-0 last week with this:

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [R] Underground Sea
2 [U] Tropical Island
1 [U] Bayou
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
3 [MM] Snuff Out
2 [FNM] Smother
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FNM] Smother
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

Leading with a Verdant Catacombs is amazing for bluffing Stifle/Daze.
The only card I've been tapping out to cast is Hymn. If they Daze it, it's worth the tempo trade, plus they are down a counter.
I've tested it a million times, and come to the conclusion that Sinkhole just doesn't cut the mustard anymore.

Ponder is the MVP of the deck, IMO.
Spell Peirce is probably number two.

I really really like this list. I ran a very similar list when I played the deck a couple weeks ago, except I had 2 EE's in the main, no Smothers, 2 Spell Pierce, and a Sylvan Library. Spell Pierce was amazing. If I sleeve up the deck again I'll probably go with your list and put 2 EE's and a Maelstrom Pulse in the SB.

I think Pithing Needle is better than Extirpate right now.

[Scordata]

Sa17dk,

Thanks. I've since cut the Misty Rainforest for a Sylvan Library.
It's better for card quality.

The board looks like this now:

SB: 1 Smother
SB: 3 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Extirpate

I'm not into forgoing gy hate. Ichorid is too good otherwise.

[Plague Sliver]

Time to share my experience with the deck last week, where I bombed out ... bad. 30 man tournament, 5 rounds cut to top 8. I went 2-3-0, could have been 2-2-1 but I scooped in the 5th round since it was clear he would have won were it not for time running out.

My decklist, in case anybody cares:

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Spell Pierce

4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Snuff Out
1x Smother
1x Darkblast

4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Swamp

Sideboard:

3x Dispel
3x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle
2x Ghastly Demise
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Round 1 vs. a teammate playing Merfolk
Win 2-0

Basically spent all the karma/luck I had in Round 1, against somebody who I did not want to play.
Game 1: raced his LoA and 1 other merfolk with 2 Goyfs. Won with 2 life I think.
Game 2: nailed him with early Hymn, he drops 2 vials early but I counter with Needle and win the counter-war. Tombstalker beats down.

Round 2 vs. Zoo
Loss 0-2

Game 1: didn't find threats in time, made a critical misplay by letting Price resolve when I had FoW and allowing him to activate his fetch.
Game 2: mull to 5 on the play = lose.

Round 3 vs. Thopter Combo
Loss 0-2

Turns out he wasn't running counterbalance and I waited 2 games for the counterbalance that never came :-)
Game 1: he gets the combo online and wins.
Game 2: I side in about 10 pieces of hate and they don't show in time. 3rd Plowshares on Tombstalker finally exiles him - some lengthy counter-wars which was pretty good compared to the smackdown I got from Zoo.

Round 4 vs. NO Bant
Win 2-1

I finally get the deck to fire on all cylinders against a decent matchup.
Game 1: I don't disrupt him enough, he wins with Progenitus.
Game 2: I have everything for him this game. Snuff Out, Hymn, Darkblast 2 Hierarchs, Smother, Diabolic Edict...he had nothing on the board.
Game 3: I mention to him that this is my first Game 3 of the tournament. This one was close, he Natural Orders for Terrastadon (!) but I race him just in time with some timely evasive 'Stalker beats. I win with 3 life.

Round 5 vs. It's the Fear
Loss 1-2

Nothing too memorable, total grindfest. We go to time in Game 3, he's a nice guy so I scoop to him. It didn't matter at that point, he was going to win with inevitability if we didn't have time constraints.

So yeah, just a shitty performance. I should have listened to Nitewolf's advice and put in some draw, instead I played 4 Hymns which didn't turn out so hot. I did surprise the hell out of a lot of people with the deck though, one observer remarked "where else can you play Force and Hymn in the same deck". Got a chuckle out of me.

Other highlight was watching Mr. Cedric Philips sharp-shoot all of the opponent's merfolk. He won that game by dealing ONE point of combat damage total.

[SMR0079]

Has anyone else tried taking the deck in a more controling direction?

4 Brainstrom
3 Ponder
3 JACE

4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Snare
3 Thoughtseize

4 Ghastly Demise/Smother
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Goyf
2 Tombstalker
2 Clique

22 Land : 3 Wastes, 4 basics

SB Options
Extirpate
Grip
Plague
Removal

[Ozymandias]

By removing all the tempo generators, you've just turned the deck into bad Landstill without Landstill.

[Demonic_Attorney]

By removing all the tempo generators, you've just turned the deck into bad Landstill without Landstill.

That is sooooooooooooo true!

[SMR0079]

By removing all the tempo generators, you've just turned the deck into bad Landstill without Landstill.

True, except that playing standstill in control is just wrong when Merfok is a dominant force.

It just seems that this control deck has a better percentage against the current metagame then traditional Team America, which struggles against Merfolk in particulair. Snare, Deed, Extirpate are very strong right now - more so then the tempo alternatives in Team America.

[Nyselm]

So I recently decided that I was going to start playing legacy after one of my friends convinced my to actually play a few games and I have to admit, despite my close-mindedness I really like the format. So after reading up I think I want to try Team America out via borrowing some cards, my main question is: what do the deck's matchups look like?

[Oiolosse]

So I recently decided that I was going to start playing legacy after one of my friends convinced my to actually play a few games and I have to admit, despite my close-mindedness I really like the format. So after reading up I think I want to try Team America out via borrowing some cards, my main question is: what do the deck's matchups look like?

You have 53 pages of skimming ahead of you, better start now!


But yeah, really, read the thread :)

[GtF]

Quick roundup:
The more reliant a deck is on particular interactions, the BETTER team america will be against it.
Merfolk and Zoo are probably the hardest matchups out of popular decks because they have so much redundancy and interchangable threats, so it is easy to have the wrong answer for their threats and difficult to disrupt them. They put TA in the control role rather than the disruption role and that is not the position the deck wants to be in. Merfolk is worse than Zoo IMO, but still beatable. BUG landstill is also tough just because of the amount of removal they run (innocent blood is really good), but other control decks can be easy if they run a lot of expensive spells.
Any deck centering around particular combinations like combo decks, counterbalance, vengevine/survival, stax, goblins, lands, I would say all those are favorable to varying extents. The GW survival list is tougher than the U/G because it can function more like a better beatdown deck after you disrupt their survival plan.
Of course these matchups can be shored up with the SB slots.

[wcm8]

This list has been performing well at various tournaments, including a top 8 finish in a large Japanese tournament.

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tombstalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Snuff Out
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Smother
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Pernicious Deed

It has a lot of heavy disruption, but has late game capabilities thanks to Jace and Deed. In testing, it still seems to struggle against fast aggro like Zoo, but I think that matchup could be improved with some tweaks.

[sa17dk]

I'm thinking of sleeving up Team America again. I've been playing UGB Thresh for a while now but quickly realized that Nimble Mongoose and Dark Confidant aren't very good at blocking Vengevines. On the other hand, Tombstalker eats Vengevines for breakfast.

However, while I love Hymn, it seems like it would be bad against Survival decks so I'll probably run the following modified list:

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

2 Jace TMS
2 Maelstrom Pulse

[wcm8]

My suggested build:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Snuff Out
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp


Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trygon predator
2 Umezawa's jitte
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Divert

Jitte in the board addresses aggro matchups better than trying to 1-for-1 with black removal. 12 creatures + 8 cantrips means it shouldn't be too hard to get online. It is admittedly slow, but Team America packs enough disruption to get you to that point.

Jace is questionable, since too often he's just a 'win more' card. But he's a great top deck later in the game, and can be shuffled back with brainstorm early on.

Divert is great against opposing discard, burn, removal, and counterspells. It's a very flexible card in my opinion.

4 crypt may be overkill, but I hate losing to dredge.

[Solar Ice]

@ wcm8:

I would definitely play Hymn instead of Sinkhole and possibly Go for the Throat instead of Snuff Out (though that is something that needs to thoroughly tested, Snuff Out is a solid card). Pithing Needle should also be considered in the board, imo.

[Scordata]

The reason you want to run hymns over sinkhole is that sinkhole only helps you if you are already winning.
Hymn will not only do that, but helps you come back from behind.
Who cares if the have 2 lands if they have no cards in hand, yadig?

[Plague Sliver]

@wcm8

Nice build. I have some comments for you, keeping in mind that you should expect to face a fair share of aggro in a normal meta.

1) I would consider running a 4th removal spell over the 1x Jace. Chance of you drawing the Jace is extremely low, and in fact I would try a 2x Snuff Out / 2x Go for the Throat split.

2) Try Spell Snare over Sinkhole? Is blue and lowers your curve. Aggro doesn't care if you nuke one of their lands on turn 2.

3) I would run Dispel over Divert, but that's a matter of personal preference.

4) Mana base - I would suggest trying 3x Bayou, 1x Swamp instead of 1x Bayou, 1x Trop, 1x Swamp. You can cut a fetchland.

5) Have you considered Engineered Explosives instead of Jitte in the board for mass removal? That's also a way to kill enchantments/artifacts that slip past your counter suite.

My modified version of your build:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendillion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Snuff Out
2 Go for the Throat
4 Spell Snare
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Swamp


Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Trygon predator
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Dispel

[wcm8]

Think of sinkhole as a precision sniper rifle and hymn to tourach being a sawed off shotgun. With sinkhole and the other land destruction spells, you can cut your opponents off their key colors long enough to get there with your fatties. Counters are there for cards that slip through the cracks. I'd rather have an opponent have a full hand they can't do anything with than allow them to ramp into end game spells -- if you get to that point, TA is going to lose anyways. Sinkhole keeps you functioning as the beatdown.

In matchups where it isn't helpful (aether vial.deck) it's usually the first card to get cut, especially on the draw. We need to think of a deck as being 75 cards, not the best 60 + 15 narrow answers.

Jitte + 8 evasive beaters can get there vs merefolk. As long as you kill their lords, your creatures are much much better.

[Plague Sliver]

Fair enough. Plus there's always the "oh shit" factor when they realize their BASIC LANDS AREN'T SAFE.

Another sideboard option to consider is Pithing Needle to shut off Vial.

Are you planning to take TA to a tournament/event soon?

[wcm8]

I'm not sure if it's right for my local meta-game (too much random aggro, hardly any combo), but at a larger tournament I think TA could do really well. I will probably take some variant to a SCG Open or Grand Prixs this year. I have been testing my list on Cockatrice, and it has been doing pretty well. I beat Merfolk pretty easily with this configuration.

Land destruction is very underrated. It can have just as much 'oops, I win' factor as a turn 2 Dreadnought. Along with counterspell backup, you can really punish opponents who keep a risky opening hand.

Divert is definitely a flex slot in the sideboard, I am not completely sold on it. It is absolutely brutal if you can redirect a Hymn to Tourach back at your opponent, but sometimes in the late game they might have the two extra to pay for a StP. I'll continue testing with it, but I think you definitely want something in the sideboard to help address sligh/burn without being too narrow.

Edit: even with the trygons, I think Krosan Grips should still be in the sideboard. There are various artifacts and creatures that really suck to have land vs you (eg: ensnaring bridge, humility). Maybe I'd cut a crypt and something else for 1/2 of them.

[Scordata]

As far as Sinkhole vs Hymn goes, I think it's best to say it is a metagame choice.

Sinkhole is probably better in underdeveloped metas, whereas hymn works better in metas with more non-basic lands.

That having been said, I probably would NOT play this deck in an underdeveloped meta, OR where there is a lot of Rock or Dragon Stompy.

I still stand by my reasoning that hymn is an overall better call than sinkhole, just due to how legacy works in general.
Against decks like Zoo and Goblins, which run many, many lands - sinkhole is the wrong call. You will not be able to overcome their threat/card advantage engines by one-for-one'ing them. Yes, it may keep your dazes relevant, however any good pilot will play into them to set you back a turn on tempo. By and large, their red cards will trump your black ones, and over time this becomes largely problematic.

Against blue decks with daze and force: A turn 2 hymn is probably your strongest play here. The following will occur:
They force your hymn - result: that's awesome! They are down a counterspell, 2 cards, and life!
They daze your hymn - result: that's awesome! They are down a card, and on tempo, because they have returned a land to their hand.
The Spell Snare your hymn - result: OKish. One for one trade. Make sure you don't lose on tempo here.
Hymn Resolves - result: that's awesome! You are probably going to win.

Sinkhole is ALWAYS a one for one - unless its Force of willed. Thats really bad for you, cause if you tapped out to play that card you can be sure you will go behind on tempo. A reminder that this deck is not Tempo Thresh - tapping out is how you will win most of your games. ALA Turn 1 stifle, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 goyf with force/daze backup, and hopefully you just landed your wasteland.

[keys]

Sinkhole is ALWAYS a one for one - unless its Force of willed.

Sinkhole provides virtual card advantage by mana screwing your opponent. It also has more of an effect on the board state later in the game, being able to remove man lands, mazes, or other utility lands, whereas Hymn is dead when your opponent is topdecking.

There are good arguments for playing either card.

[sdematt]

I was brainstorming in Archeology class about a Team America/Dreadstill/Dark Tempo Thresh hybrid. I haven't really tried it out much, but I was just thinking of a few things:

-We run Stifle, why not add a Trickbind and run some Dreadnoughts, too?

-Dark Confidant is becoming my favourite creature evar, why not play him (besides flipping a Tombstalker)?

So, I quickly put this together during the midterm:

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Clique/Tombstalker/Bitterblossom/Something

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Top/Ponder/Preordain
3 Thoughtseize/More Counters/EE/Open/Ghastly Demise/Etc.

Basically, you run the same suite of awesome counters and tempo, but you also run a bit more card advantage (Bob). Bob is crazy good, but again, I'm not sure if this is the thread or not. Here, you can decide to control a bit more until you drop Goyf betas, or you can go all-in on a 12/12 on turn 2. I guess this means you have to use your Stifles slightly more sparingly, or not, because you still have Goyfs and other creatures on the attack as well.

Let me know what you think of the basic idea.

-Matt

[wcm8]

Dreadnought is too conditional for a deck like this. It is a card that requires a deck to be built around it. Dreadstill achieves this by having a tutor (trinket mage), card advantage (standstill), and protection (counterbalance, other counterspells).

Team America does not want a conditional beater with built in card-disadvantage. If there was a significantly good U/B/G creature for 2-3 mana that fit in with the deck's goals of disruption + fast beats, then I'm sure it would find its way in. As it stands, no other creatures in those colors match the power-to-casting-cost efficiency of Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf.

The deck you are suggesting has been built before, it's called "Dreadstalker". But I don't think it is as good/consistent as a more stock Team America build.

[wcm8]

Against blue decks with daze and force: A turn 2 hymn is probably your strongest play here. The following will occur:
They force your hymn - result: that's awesome! They are down a counterspell, 2 cards, and life!
They daze your hymn - result: that's awesome! They are down a card, and on tempo, because they have returned a land to their hand.
The Spell Snare your hymn - result: OKish. One for one trade. Make sure you don't lose on tempo here.
Hymn Resolves - result: that's awesome! You are probably going to win.
.

They force sinkhole: awesome, they are down 2 cards and have less answers for your real threats!
They daze sinkhole: awesome, they lost tempo
They spell snare sinkhole: 1-for-1 trade
Sinkhole resolves: awesome! They lost tempo, are potentially cut off a color (removal color?), and are a turn further from ramping into relevant colors! Follow up with stifle, wasteland, and/or more sinkholes and they can't play anything in their hand.

The cards are both great, it's just that when sinkhole is good, it's absolutely brutal. Hymn also had the disadvantage of being trumped by brainstorm. Sinkhole is oftentimes more of a 'must answer', what with all the greedy legacy manabases. Also, when you tap out for sinkhole, your opponent's follow up turn is more likely in Daze range.

This deck is not made for under-developed metas. In a developed meta, I'd rather be using sinkhole vs rainbow-colored counterbalance decks.

[from Cairo]

This deck is not made for under-developed metas. In a developed meta, I'd rather be using sinkhole vs rainbow-colored counterbalance decks.

By the same arguement one could say Hymn's better if one's "developed meta" features Vial decks and Storm combo. They're both good cards. If your meta is one that features a lot of land drop dependant decks (CBT, Lands, Landstill) Sinkhole will likely shine; if one's meta features a bunch of decks that can cheat mana costs, are monocolored or run low curves: Vial decks, Goyf Sligh/Fast Zoo, Storm - Hymn is probably going to be more effective.

[GtF]

I prefer neither, but if I had to choose I'd probably go with hymn. It seems to have had more success overall.

[mich]

Seems like this thread gets no love it deserves :P For anyone inetersted I've just posted a short tournament report here : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20008-Team-America-does-it-again-in-Poznan-12-02-2011&p=521982#post521982

What do you guys think about Maelstrom Pulse vs Pernicious Deed in this deck?

Addresing recent discussion - personaly I've alwayes preffered Hymn, as it is the only card in the deck that is always 2 for 1, and is much better than sinkhole against our worst matchups like merfolk and burn. Sinkhole feels like a dead card to me way too often, and is the worst topdeck mid to lategame.

@wcm8 - I disagree, that Hymn is trumped by a Brainstorm, as they're always down two cards. Sinkhole indeed makes your Dazes more effective late game, but I don't find this alone to be worth it. Also the fear of losing important cards to hymn puts a pressure on your opponents, often making them play their threats too soon, so they can't protect them, walk into daze or overextend into Deed/Perish.

[wcm8]

What is TA's strategy? I think in essence, it is to Disrupt the opponent, drop a fattie, and beat face.

If this strategy is indeed still viable (and I think it is, given the deck's continued performance record), we next need to identify what cards enable us to execute this strategy the best in the current metagame, while still keeping basic deck-building principles in mind (i.e. we want to avoid the danger of cool things). I think we also need to acknowledge that certain strategies are bad vs. other strategies, and that by diluting a list by trying to have an answer everything, we end up with a deck that is really just weaker overall. This is where the sideboard can come in, but let's just focus on the main deck for now.

In matchups where Sinkhole is really bad, often Stifle and Wasteland are also really bad. But in such cases, is it really a slight vs. Sinkhole specifically, or is it just an admitted weakness of using land destruction in general against certain matchups? A resolved Aether Vial makes Wasteland and Stifle almost equally bad. If land destruction in general is a bad strategy, then perhaps stifle and Wasteland should be replaced with hard counters and a more stable manabase of our own. But I don't think that this is where this deck should go.

Both Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach are bad late game. TA in general is bad late game. That isn't where the argument should really be focused, because both cards are trying to serve the execution of the game plan. The question should really be, which is more disruptive on turn 2/3, and helps you enable your own game plan the best, ASSUMING that the opponent's deck is not capable of just ignoring your strategy? Alongside the rest of the card choices, I would argue that Sinkhole is. Both cards aim to hinder the opponent in the short term (or at least long enough to ride a fattie to victory), I just think that an opponent can usually more easily recover from a resolved Hymn than from a resolved Sinkhole. They can always topdeck a Swords/Path to deal with your creature, but they can't cast it if you are putting constant pressure on their ability to get white mana.

[mich]

I just think that an opponent can usually more easily recover from a resolved Hymn than from a resolved Sinkhole. They can always topdeck a Swords/Path to deal with your creature, but they can't cast it if you are putting constant pressure on their ability to get white mana.

Actually I think it's exactly the opposite - the odds of them topdecking another source of white mana are much higher, than that they find another swords/path.


In matchups where Sinkhole is really bad, often Stifle and Wasteland are also really bad. But in such cases, is it really a slight vs. Sinkhole specifically, or is it just an admitted weakness of using land destruction in general against certain matchups?A resolved Aether Vial makes Wasteland and Stifle almost equally bad.

The point is Sinkhole is the only card that can be completely dead in given scenarios/matchups. Stifle is very versitile card and always has some use, at the very worst it can delay vial for a turn or you can pitch it to FoW; wasteland at least gives mana, while Sinkhole in the late game is usually BB:opponent does'nt care. Throwing Hymn at your opponent before dropping a fatty is equally effective on turn 3 as it is on turn 13.

[Rood]

Grats Dan on winning SCG DC. I was watching the Emrakul play I couldn't help but be happy you pulled it out after game one. Good stuff man looking forward to a report.

[Scordata]

Darkblast/stifle ftw!

With such a huge uptick on noble hierach decks, I think this is poised to do some face-smashing.

Dan, thanks for the evidence, and congratulations!

[sdematt]

I only caught the last few seconds, what did he stifle?

-Matt

[Rood]

What didn't he Stifle? Lol. He destroyed Doomsday/Show on Shelldock Isle.

[sdematt]

I don't know, I didn't watch the match, Rodney.

I'm assuming he stifled the Hideaway trigger?

Great job on beating those nasty storm-combo decks!

-Matt

[wcm8]

Fantastic finish!

Here's the list he played for reference:

Team America

Maindeck:
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Go for the Throat
2 Predict
2 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast
2 Dispel
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Krosan Grip
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Consuming Vapors

Has some card advantage with library and predict. Overall seems like a very strong list (onbviously, the results speak for themselves).

[sdematt]

I'd like to see what he played/tournament report. Not sure, but is Dan the handle Nitewolf?

-Matt

[TUMBLES]

I hadn't even heard of this deck until tonight. His list looks strong and I like the playstyle a lot, I'll have to mess around with it and see if it fits me.

It runs Stifle so that's like +1000 bonus points :eek:

[GtF]

Dan Signorini is my hero. Way to take it down. The crowd wants a tourney report.

[nitewolf9]

Thanks everyone, and omg what a stupidly ridiculous punt in that first game of the finals. So embarrassing. In my defense I was exhausted, but that's what they all say. Note to self look at life totals before making combat decisions.

I'll try to scrape together a tournament report tomorrow at some point. List was solid all around except I was very underwhelmed with Needle. Consuming vapors was awesome, and predict is insane.

[Deviruchi]

Congratulations Dan! I was rooting for DD and TA lately. So nice to see them in the finals. Can't wait for your report.

[Amon Amarth]

What did you board in consuming vapors in against? I'm assuming Zoo and other green midrange decks? That card seems really sick in some matchups.

[LOurs]

Congratulations for the result. TA is one of my favorite build and it is always nice to see it performing !
I just would like to get some informations about your choices :
> why EE over deed ?
EE is as well a very strong card in that build, but deed is also working well especialy with tombstalker but does not interact with planeswalker.
> how was go for the throat ?
I'm used to play 4 snuff out md as well, and sometimes I sb in smother in when dealing with black creatures. Althought I think that go for throat is most of the time better than smother in the sb, but I'm curious to know how it works MD. Didnt you have mana availability issues ? Did you feel it more efficient ?

gl & congrats again

[mich]

Grats on the finish, I was watching coverage of your round 7 match against zoo, and was impressed by how you still almost managed to stablize game 3 after being stuck on one land for several turns despite casting brainstorm and two ponders (the zoo pilot punted twice, helping it a little though). As many others in this thread I'd love to read your report, looking forward to it!

Also having played various builds of Team America for quiet some time myself, I have a few questions regarding your decklist;

- First, why did you choose to run Jace in the board rather than maindeck over, say Sylvan Library? The Jace is never really a bad card, at worst being most-expansive-brainstorm-ever, but still I alwayes found that good enough to have it maindeck and keeping my sideboard slots for other cards.

- Why so many Krosan Grips? Coutertop is favourable matchup anyway, and I like Maelstrom Pulse in this slot a lot more, as for giving up instant speed and split second you get extra flexibility (and ability to deal with a resolved jace, wich this deck really lacks)

- Can you recall how many times did you cast Consuming Vapours (and what creatures did it get?) I've been testing Vapours in this deck a while ago, and decided to cut it, as I just found it way too slow, but might actually give it anther shot. (I'm always running at least two Perish in my side for decks like zoo, bant and new horizons and I just find it much more reliable)

[Esper3k]

I would presume Sylvan is main because it comes out significantly earlier than Jace?

Congratulations on the win! It's awesome to see the creator of a deck doing so well with his baby!

[Sims]

Thanks everyone, and omg what a stupidly ridiculous punt in that first game of the finals. So embarrassing. In my defense I was exhausted, but that's what they all say. Note to self look at life totals before making combat decisions.

I'll try to scrape together a tournament report tomorrow at some point. List was solid all around except I was very underwhelmed with Needle. Consuming vapors was awesome, and predict is insane.

Good job, Dan, and congratz on the finish.

I was super stoked to see a familiar name at the top of the Legacy event.

[nitewolf9]

Thanks again guys, and I'm going to try and get a report up tonight after reviewing some of the "notes" I took.

As for Library over Jace, I really want to have to option of shuffling away excess lands for gas in game 1 and forcing yourself to hit 4 land drops for 1 or 2 cards in your deck when they are not guaranteed to win you the game can be a pain. The other reason Library is better than Jace in the main is that library is actually helpful vs tribal, and helps you hit land drops when you are facing wasteland decks. It's also just as devastating vs any sort of control deck. Goblins was everywhere this weekend, and Zoo wasn't far behind. Jace doesn't seem stellar in either of those matchups, as good as he is against blue decks.

Maelstrom Pulse over Grip is actually something I have been seriously considering now that you mention it, mainly as it allows me to overload on removal vs junk style decks by playing so many roles in the board. I usually opt for the grips as they have become almost sacred cows in my sideboard, which is dangerous. With all the CB lists playing Jace it could very well be correct to make the swap. I was also considering Seal of Primordium in that spot, but pulse is probably just better. Seal was my solution for circumventing aether vial, standstill, and back to basics vs folk but that doesn't seem as important right now.

EE is played over deed mainly as you can split up the mana cost if you are stuck on 2 lands, which is very relevant especially vs the newer zoo builds with wasteland, and it is also a whole turn faster at blowing up 1 drops. Deed is strong but kind of slow. I mean sure, it's very strong vs merfolk and nice to wreck affinity's face with it, but once again it is high risk, high reward and I never felt that I needed it. Also, you can blow up knight of the reliquary when you have a goyf on the table with EE.

Consuming Vapors is indeed in the board for Zoo and Mid range decks like Junk, with some application vs natural order and show and tell. It really was a gigantic bomb, I loved having it in my board. The card lets you play the long game way more effectively and pulls you out of burn range nicely.

[wcm8]

Guess Glissa didn't work out in testing :)

I look forward to the report. How would you change the sideboard for a future tournament? Also did you just avoid graveyard decks, or were you still able to beat them despite any gy hate? Congrats again!

[GGoober]

Grats and solid list! more importantly, good piloting! :D

[GtF]

Clearly the solution to Grip vs. pulse, EE vs. deed, Jace vs. library, and all other card choice debates is to play 1 of each.

[nitewolf9]

Clearly the solution to Grip vs. pulse, EE vs. deed, Jace vs. library, and all other card choice debates is to play 1 of each.

Throw in a Seal of Primordium and we could have ourselves a deal.

[Dzra]

It seems like Affinity would have been really tough for you and I also am curious about the lack of GY hate. Goblins seems like it might have been a tough MU, but maybe Stifle and EE were enough to carry there?

[nitewolf9]

I beat goblins 3 times in the swiss. Goblins has a very tough time beating you, and it's always been that way.

Affinity isn't very popular, and despite them being favored it isn't by much.

I'm still not sure why I would need graveyard hate.

[sdematt]

How is your Merfolk matchup? When I first started playing the deck, I found I was weak against Tribal. How did you end up crushing your Goblins opponents?

Congrats again. Did you split prizes at Top 4 so everyone walked away with equal money, or did you play it out for the two grand?

-Matt

[nitewolf9]

We did a finals split, so it was something like 1300 each. Merfolk is pretty even actually. If you are playing needle it gets much better post board, but just having more removal helps a bunch. It's a close call but it is the type of matchup where you can gain a tremendous advantage from a lot of testing.

My games against goblins involved either me mana screwing them, hymning them to death, or just playing tombstalker and countering warren weirding (the latter is what happened the most). The problem is that they can't block Tombstalker with War Marshal and goyf can just sit there and hold the ground while you fly over. You just prioritize not letting them cheat guys into play and get tombstalker online asap. Then they die in 4 turns. This build is also very good at casting multiple stalkers. Stifle is insane against goblins as well. Tempo decks give goblins a rough time in general I think mainly because of that card. Also perish is really easy to play around when you have stalker.

[Esper3k]

Did you ever have any problems with T1 Lackeys? The deck does have 6 ways to deal with them on the draw. Would you sometimes just let them hit you and just Stifle the trigger?

[nitewolf9]

That did happen once as I had go for the throat for removal. I stifled the lacky trigger, killed it next turn and dazed warchief, then played tarmogoyf. Then tombstalker. Then won.

[wcm8]

I'm curious about the inclusion of gftt as removal over other options. Smother hits most relevant legacy creatures, including dreadnought. Ghastly demise is faster and hits most creatures. I am not doubting it's value, I just wonder how outside of opposing tombstalkers that it's better than the alternatives.

[ajfirecracker]

In honor of the first several pages of this thread:

Has anyone tried Psychatog or Vendillion Clique as creature 9-10?

[mich]

I'm usually playing 4goyf/3stalker/2clique, but I'm seriously consdering switching back to 4goyf/4stalker as the clique while good against combo and control decks, sukcs agains zoo and tribal and those are more difficoult matchups, but it depends on the meta you expect. I usually run a more controlish lists than the one from recent SCG, and wanting to hit 3 lands for clique/deed/pulse or 4 for jace makes you play a bit differently especially with your wastelands. Cutting all the expansive spells to be fully operational on just two lands might be the way to go though. I really like the inclusion of 2 predict in nitewolf9's list, upping cantrip count to 10 should be enough to cast multiple tombstalkers reliably. Psychatog is just not good anymore in legacy I guess.

[wcm8]

I will second Predict being insane. In most scenarios, it's a 2cmc instant that reads: draw two cards, also, get rid of one bad draw. It also has some corner-case utility versus decks running Enlightened Tutor and/or Sensei's Divining Top. Combos with the cantrips, Library, and Jace post-board.

I think a big part of the success of this deck is the remarkable consistency you get by running 10+ cantrips.

Edit: that, and a fantastic pilot!

[Mark Sun]

Congrats on the finish, Dan.

We left the venue before Top 8 and watched the first couple of games of the Finals, and I didn't even realize it was you until Medina was reading your decklist on the car ride home. The instant I heard "dude, he's running 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Predict," as funny as it sounds, I remembered your list. Nice job.

[wcm8]

Regarding the sylvan library slot: what about Mirri's Guile instead?

Pros:
A decent turn 1 play if you're not holding stifle (t2 library isn't usually what you want to be doing that turn)
Functions essentially the same as sylvan library
Can't be spell snared
You can decide to shuffle via fetchlands before going to draw phase, useful if all 3 arent needed

Cons:
Doesn't allow you to keep extra cards
More likely to get hit by explosives (often 1cc is what they get set at)

How often do you find yourself actually playing the extra life with sylvan?

This is all pretty minute since it is just a singleton slot. A t1 permanent sdt might just be incrementally better in this deck in those few times you actually open with it in your starting 7. Has anyone done comparison testing? If not ill give Dan's list some testing with this single change.

[JCLe]

Regarding the sylvan library slot: what about Mirri's Guile instead?

Pros:
A decent turn 1 play if you're not holding stifle (t2 library isn't usually what you want to be doing that turn)
Functions essentially the same as sylvan library
Can't be spell snared
You can decide to shuffle via fetchlands before going to draw phase, useful if all 3 arent needed

Cons:
Doesn't allow you to keep extra cards
More likely to get hit by explosives (often 1cc is what they get set at)

How often do you find yourself actually playing the extra life with sylvan?

This is all pretty minute since it is just a singleton slot. A t1 permanent sdt might just be incrementally better in this deck in those few times you actually open with it in your starting 7. Has anyone done comparison testing? If not ill give Dan's list some testing with this single change.

my 0.02$,
The best thing about sylvan library it that it auto-wins some matchups, while mirri's guilde does not. Sure, it provides card advantage the same way a top would, just like sylvan does.

The main thing to consider is your last point, where you said how often to you pay life. Think about all the matchups where you play a role in which you aren't taking damage, or where the extra card saves you 4 life and removes one to your opponent, that's how often you draw with it...

Also, library isn't the worst topdeck midgame, where as an enchantement that tops once during you upkeep just really doesn't do anything when you need a good amount of stuff to stay in the game (ie. getting a counter/removal + a threat). This argument can also be seen in this optic : you need 2 cards to win the game, mirri's guile will find you one, when library cycles itself (next turn) for 4 life...

Sure, it's hard to make mirri's guile sound bad but library is just strictly better, especially in this deck. Library gives you the real card advantage you need, while guile is just another turn 1 ponder...

[nitewolf9]

One of the best things about Library is punishing decks that play Swords to Plowshares. When you are going to draw at least one card from them playing a removal spell it puts your opponent in a tough spot.

[atropos]

One of the best things about Library is punishing decks that play Swords to Plowshares. When you are going to draw at least one card from them playing a removal spell it puts your opponent in a tough spot.

That synergy also works really well if you use Consuming Vapors. So tech!

[AllIsDust]

Hey guys, I've been tinkering with this deck and I saw Pithing Needle in the sideboard, what is that used for exactly?

[nitewolf9]

Mainly to stop aether vial, and in that sense mainly against merfolk. It was ok vs goblins but nothing spectacular.

The card just isn't poweful enough and I have since cut it.

[Irenicus]

Mainly to stop aether vial, and in that sense mainly against merfolk. It was ok vs goblins but nothing spectacular.

The card just isn't poweful enough and I have since cut it.

So what's your current SB? And will you still write a report or don't you have enough time atm? Just curious, please don't feel offended. Thanks!

[Zamussels]

The card just isn't poweful enough and I have since cut it.

What other cards have you changed from your tournament winning decklist? Any situational or metagame cards you wouldn't advise everyone to automatically play? Any staples you wouldn't ever change? Any cards you run because of your style of play but could be switched to something else? A lot of questions I know but I see a lot of options with that deck! Thanks!

[AllIsDust]

Mainly to stop aether vial, and in that sense mainly against merfolk. It was ok vs goblins but nothing spectacular.

The card just isn't poweful enough and I have since cut it.

I figured as much, i also came to the same conclusion.
Do you think E. Plague would be a better Solution to tribal?

[wcm8]

-3 Pithing Needle
+3 Maelstrom Pulse

[nitewolf9]

I am in fact playing pulse now, but cut a grip in addition to the needles to squeeze in a second darkblast. That card was insane in so many matchups.

Engineered Plague is also a very reasonable sideboard card, but just not very effective in the merfolk matchup. Maelstrom pulse is actually pretty good there however, so you might be able to squeeze some plagues in the board over the 2nd darkblast, 3rd EE, and Demise.

[Arsenal]

With Merfolk lists hardly running Stifle maindeck anymore (I believe most players have replaced it with Pierce), would Pernicious Deed be a reasonable card versus them? I mean, a Deed = 3 essentially wipes their entire board; no Vial tricks to salvage their board, no Cursecatcher baiting, etc. whereas EE can maybe cripple them, but it doesn't straight up blow them out like Deed = 3 would.

[mich]

Mainly to stop aether vial, and in that sense mainly against merfolk. It was ok vs goblins but nothing spectacular.

The card just isn't poweful enough and I have since cut it.

I'm surprised to see that. I'm usually running two needles in my side, and I've always been happy with them, not only they are great against vial decks, but also shut down top and sneak attack.

@AllIsDust - other cards you migh consider for your side, apart from already mentioned maelstrom pulse (wich is great btw) are Blue Elemental Blast (great with a maindeck basic island if you expect a lot of decks running blood moon) ,perish or some additional discard like inquisition of kozilek/thoughtseize.

edit: deed is indeed great against merfolk, and all stax/enchantress decks, but it's usually too slow against zoo and junk, being also vulnerable to pridemage and vindicate. I've recently decided to swap my maindeck deeds(wich I played in the slot of engineered explosives comparing to nightwolf9's list) with maelstrom pulses, having answer to Knight of the Reliquary before your opponent gets to untap with it is pretty important.

[nitewolf9]

OK, since I am probably not going to remember a lot of the details anyway, I figure I should post some sort of a report now so I minimize what gets forgotten. Here goes:

Round 1 - Show and Tell/Natural Order, Win 2-0

I sit down against an opponent who wins the die roll and goes Catacombs -> Tropical Island. I'm not sure what he's playing, so I ponder into daze and stifle with a possible tarmogoyf coming down next turn. He draws and plays a noble hierarch. I snuff it out, waste his land, and have stifle mana open. He fetches and I stifle. Then I untap and play tarmogoyf. He doesn't really have much action from there on out and I wind up hymning a natural order, which helps me sideboard.

I bring in Vapors, Dispel, and Jace, taking out some of my removal and trimming a daze or two. I might have also brought in darkblast here.

Game 2 I wind up hymning him early and then countering a natural order. This game goes long with me having a ton of disruption and him playing draw, land, go a bunch of times. I eventually stick tombstalker and have a grip full of countermagic. Needless to say it gets there. I would have let Show and Tell resolve at this point as I am also holding consuming vapors.

Round 2 - Goblins, Win 2-1

I have to play against my friend John this round, which is kind of a bummer, but I owe him from that last time we played in a big tournament. Game 1 I keep and extremely loose hand with go for the throat, wasteland, fetch, Tarmogoyf, Daze, Tombstalker, and stifle on the draw. He goes Lackey, go. I don't draw a cantrip or a snuff out and am forced to fetch an underground sea. I stifle the lackey trigger and he plays port. Eventually lackey gets in there and drops wort, and I can't recover from his follow up LD.

I sideboard for goblins thustly: +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Darkblast, +1 Ghastly Demise, -2 EE, -2 Predict, -1 Daze

Game 2 I go land, go. He plays aether vial. I have the needle, but not much pressure. He keeps ticking vial up and I play a hymn and a wasteland while digging for threats. Eventually I stick a goyf, but he has a krosan grip for my needle. He plays a seige gang commander, which I stifle and then kill with a removal spell. I attack with goyf and play stalker. He can't deal with stalker before he dies, and I'm holding force of will for weirding the whole time anyway.

Game 3 I pretty much answer lacky and out tempo him with guys.

Round 3 - Goblins, Win 2-1

James Buckingham is another friend that I have to play against, and I know he is on goblins. I win the roll and open a reasonable hand with an early tarmogoyf and cantrips. I go land, go. He draws and plays mountain, lackey. I don't have the removal spell, but am holding a ponder, goyf, stifle, but no protection for goyf. I figure I can untap, draw, and ponder for snuff out. If I don't hit snuff out but hit a force I can stifle the lackey and play goyf next turn. I really didn't want to get blown out by warren weirding, although with a daze I obviously would play the goyf there. I hit snuff out on the ponder and keep a blue mana up before passing. He fetches into me which I stifle, and I think he plays a war marshal. I untap and play goyf. He pays echo and plays a wasteland, but doesn't use it as the mana is obviously more important for him here. Eventually this game gets to a point where I am able to get a protected tombstalker who goes the distance. That guy is so good in this matchup.

Same boarding as before.

Game 2 it comes down to a long battle but he is able to resolve ringleader and has plenty of black mana to remove my guys and get me with his team.

Game 3 is another long drawn out affair where I eventually have a tarmogoyf and a tombstalker to his double pile driver, warchief, ringleader, lackey board. He is at 10 life so I can't swing here as his counter attack kills me. I dig for a removal spell or a fetchland to play the second stalker in my hand, and hit a fetch. I play the stalker and swing with the other one. He crashes with his team, I am able to block one of the drivers with goyf and block the chief with the stalker to stay alive. Then I untap and win. Close game. It had gotten to the point where he needed to rip a black source and weirding to race me, as I had waste/stifled him off of black early.

Round 4 - Belcher, Win 2-1

Game 1 I have no idea he is on belcher, but have a solid hand with force of will. He starts to off and plays rite of flame, desperate ritual, which I let resolve, and then grim monolith, which I force. I didn't want him to empty the warrens on me as I didn't have the EE, so I keep him below 4 mana. Eventually he is able to get a blecher through, but has no mana to activate it. I stick a goyf and start racing with double stifle in hand. He rips a tinder wall and tries to belch me, but I stifle. He makes the same play again, and I screw up by letting the tinder wall resolve and stifling the belcher with force and daze in hand. If I had countered the wall instead and saved the last stifle I would definitely have had him. Instead he untaps the turn before I kill him, goes Esg, SSg, tap chrome mox kill you. Awk-ward.

Games 2 and 3 are a blow out in my favor.

Round 5 - Goblins, Win 2-0

This round I play against Stephen King.

Game 1 he goes fetchland, don't activate, pass. I don't have stifle but peel one off the top and play my verdant catacombs and pass. He fetches, I fetch in response and stifle. He then plays a land and passes. It gets to the point where I just play guys and race him, countering/stifling any relevant goblin and wastelanding him to keep daze live. I had a removal spell the whole game to stop any alpha strike with warchief.

Same boarding plan

Game 2 I just have all the answers and smash with tombstalkers. He had trouble playing through my disruption and I had force of will for weirding the whole game. At one point I needle gempalm incinerator, which he needed to be active in order to kill one of my stalkers.

Round 6 - Big Zoo, Lose 1-2

This match is vs kemper and was a feature match, so the coverage can be found online. In short game 1 he gets too far ahead of me too early and I can't come back in time before he burns my face. Game 2 I just run him over with hymn, wasteland, and tombstalker. Game 3 I keep a hand with 3 cantrips but miss my second land drop for something like 3 turns. I almost come back but brick off of a brainstorm when I needed a removal spell for knight of the reliquary.

Round 7 - MUD (metal worker/Wurmcoil/Helkite nonsense), win 2-0

I know my opponent is playing MUD before we sit down, and I haven't tested against it. I'm a bit nervous about the matchup but feel that I have a lot of relevant cards that are bad for him.

Game 1 he plays chalice of the void on 1 for his turn 1 on the draw, which I brainstorm in response to (the only 1 cc card in my hand). It resolves as I have EE, and also no 1 cc cards. My grip has force of will, daze, goyf, stalker, lands, ee after I untap. I play my land and stick goyf. He untaps and plays port, tangle wire. I'm fine with this. My board gets tapped down and I play wasteland on his port, and ee on 0. He gets tapped down and passes. I tap ee and both lands, then get in there with goyf and play another land. He never recovers from his tangle wire and goyf just goes all the way. Ancient tomb damage didn't help here either.

I board in Consuming Vapors, Jace, the other EE, and Krosan Grip

Game 2 he plays a turn 1 juggernaught, which I decline to force as I have a goyf in my hand. I eventually have to trade my 3/4 goyf for it and he plays lodestone golem. At some point I remove the golem with snuff out and play Tombstalker. My grip at the end of this game has 3 krosan grip, 2 consuming vapors, with 5 lands in play. I really want him to play something but he doesn't and dies to stalker.

Round 8 - Big Zoo, Win 2-1

I don't remember too much about this match other than the fact that he gets me in game 1 in a long battle. Game 2 is similar but I come out on top. Game 3 I pretty much hit his knight with consuming vapors after he plays a jitte. I have stalker and goyf in play at this time and he untaps and plays gaddock teeg and noble hierarch. He equips teeg and passes. My Vapors is rfg'd for good by teeg, but he still has to block and loses his board. He has active jitte but I play another stalker and that's all she wrote.

ID in round 9

My top 8 matches are covered online but this is what I played against:

Top 8:
Junk and Taxes, win 2-0

Top 4:
Doomsday tendrils, win 2-0

Finals:
Doomsday Shelldock Isle, win 2-1


Sorry for the lack of details but I didn't take notes. That was the general idea of how the tournament went though. Lots of tight games, with a few blowout matches. If anyone wants me to go into further detail just let me know.

[Sintheros]

Sounds like Consuming Vapors gets there.

[Plague Sliver]

I'm disappointed you didn't play against more Countertop! Team America has decent game against that as well.

Never thought I'd see Consuming Vapors. I would have played Edict instead. But Darkblast is definitely solid.

Guess I'm late to the party, but congrats. Hope to see you take it down again this weekend.

[wcm8]

Just wanted to say a big 'thank you!' to Dan for doing so much for this deck: developing the list, piloting it to a recent victory, and taking the time to answer questions about it! I know you're busy but I just hope you realize we are all very grateful for your help.

One more question: are there any general guidelines you could suggest for sideboarding? For example, what cards do you tend to side out in the popular matchups like zoo, counterbalance, etc.

I also think it may be time for the primer to be rewritten since all recent successful lists have dropped sinkhole in favor of hymn and upped the removal count, among other small changes.

[nitewolf9]

Unfortunately I won't be in NJ this weekend :(. I'll have to give someone else a chance this time.

I'll try to get a sideboarding strategy guide down if people want it, but I'm currently revamping the whole board.

I'm considering Spell Pierce and Reanimate mainly, but throwing a few other ideas around as well.

Consuming Vapors is one of those extremely swingy cards that can straight up win a game by itself, or sit in your hand looking stupid. Edict could be a fine replacement, and with pulses going in the board you might actually have enough removal post board vs zoo where vapors isn't as necessary. I need to do a lot of testing.

[GtF]

I've been a big spell pierce fan for a while now. The fact that people are actually starting to win with combo decks now makes it seem even better.
Reanimate was only really great when people were playing reanimator and lots of tarmogoyfs. I don't really think it's too good right now, or necessary.
Darkblast is the stones and has been for a while.

[Wish]

Hey,a question to Nitewolf9,u dont miss spell snare??? i cant imagine a tempo deck doesnt playing at least 3 spell snares!! stops Goyfs,confidant,counterbalance,hym to tourach,qasali pridmage,sylvan libriary,stoneforge mystic,jitte,exhume,go 4 the throat,counterspell,standstill,lord of atlantis,etc,etc,etc. is a 1 cmc hard counter.

[ivanpei]

I've tested both this and NLT. I can say that pierce/snare are suboptimal because they are conditional counters. Snare used to be the stone cold nuts due to all the bombs being centered at 2cc. However, now you have most of the big bombs at 3cc and above, ie KOTR, GSZ, Show and Tell, RWM, Natural order, Jace etc. Daze with wastes + stifle appear to be the best strategy. The list is already very tight, I can't see how you'd fit pierce and snare in the MD. Also, I love nitewolf's list. I've made a small change though, because I dislike predict. I want to be balls to the wall disruption and aggro. I find it very hard to set up predict. I've gone - 2 Predict for 1 more Sylvan and 1 more Hymm. Both are the stone cold nuts against decks predict is good against (Control/Midrange) and are unconditionally good. Cheers.

[nitewolf9]

I've tested both this and NLT. I can say that pierce/snare are suboptimal because they are conditional counters. Snare used to be the stone cold nuts due to all the bombs being centered at 2cc. However, now you have most of the big bombs at 3cc and above, ie KOTR, GSZ, Show and Tell, RWM, Natural order, Jace etc. Daze with wastes + stifle appear to be the best strategy. The list is already very tight, I can't see how you'd fit pierce and snare in the MD. Also, I love nitewolf's list. I've made a small change though, because I dislike predict. I want to be balls to the wall disruption and aggro. I find it very hard to set up predict. I've gone - 2 Predict for 1 more Sylvan and 1 more Hymm. Both are the stone cold nuts against decks predict is good against (Control/Midrange) and are unconditionally good. Cheers.

This pretty much sums up the snare argument for me. The card is too conditional, and just OK when it works.

I can see how you might not like the predicts, and your chanes are intriguing. They have been good for me as a lot of the time they enable multiple stalkers early and they aren't particularly hard to set up. Plus, when you pass while holding stifle up after making your second land drop, assuming you pondered on turn 1 or brainstormed for some reason (probably looking for hymn), it gives you a way to pull ahead if they don't drop a fetch.

I have cut the 4th Daze for the 4th Hymn, but I will keep your changes in mind. It might be good to have an extra library with decks like junk running around, as that card is very, very bad for them. I probably wouldn't play 2 if Zoo were still public enemy number 1, but isn't the case anymore.

[nitewolf9]

I've tested both this and NLT. I can say that pierce/snare are suboptimal because they are conditional counters. Snare used to be the stone cold nuts due to all the bombs being centered at 2cc. However, now you have most of the big bombs at 3cc and above, ie KOTR, GSZ, Show and Tell, RWM, Natural order, Jace etc. Daze with wastes + stifle appear to be the best strategy. The list is already very tight, I can't see how you'd fit pierce and snare in the MD. Also, I love nitewolf's list. I've made a small change though, because I dislike predict. I want to be balls to the wall disruption and aggro. I find it very hard to set up predict. I've gone - 2 Predict for 1 more Sylvan and 1 more Hymm. Both are the stone cold nuts against decks predict is good against (Control/Midrange) and are unconditionally good. Cheers.

This pretty much sums up the snare argument for me. The card is too conditional, and just OK when it works.

I can see how you might not like the predicts, and your chanes are intriguing. They have been good for me as a lot of the time they enable multiple stalkers early and they aren't particularly hard to set up. Plus, when you pass while holding stifle up after making your second land drop, assuming you pondered on turn 1 or brainstormed for some reason (probably looking for hymn), it gives you a way to pull ahead if they don't drop a fetch.

I have cut the 4th Daze for the 4th Hymn, but I will keep your changes in mind. It might be good to have an extra library with decks like junk running around, as that card is very, very bad for them. I probably wouldn't play 2 if Zoo were still public enemy number 1, but isn't the case anymore.

[ivanpei]

Daze and Hymm have been allstars for me. Regarding setting up Stalkers, I haven't had that problem yet. I usually have plenty of yard to chew. I can see how Predict is really good in filling the yard (I played it in the mongoose-werebear days). @ Passing the turn with Stifle up- this is also another very good point, maybe I just don't plan my fetchland drops very well. I find that with 9 fetches, I can't really set up as efficiently. The situation that you mentioned is really common for me too.

T1 Fetch -> Sea, Ponder/Storm. T2 I lay dual (Instead of fetch) with Stifle and Predict ready. If I predict, its win-win. If I stifle, I'm stuck drawing that crap card I was sandbagging for Predict. I can upkeep predict, but I'd rather be laying a threat that turn instead of drawing. Sylvan on the other hand, comes down after I've dumped all my hymms/threats into play and finds me what I need into the midgame. So far that's been my game plan and its working well. Cheers and thanks for your thoughts. The list is awesome.

[Surakhiri]

Hello, just made it to the finals first time playing this deck in a tournamet. Only 19ppl 5 swiss. A quick report and the list(Sorry if my english is bad, I´m very tired):

R1 - ANT 2-1
G1, I stifle and wasteland then both of us cantrip alot(and I mean alot). He later manage to duress my FoWs and win with tendrils.
G2 A fast stalker, FoW and spell pierce win the game.
G3 He combo into Ill-Gotten Gains after a duress and I only have a FoW and daze in me graveyard(none in my hand). He picks duress, LED and a tutor. I have a stifle in hand so after Ill-Gotten resolve I pick stifle, daze and FoW, he decide to scoop. I had a goyf in play also.

R2 - White Weenie 2-0
G1 and G2 I win easy mode with a stalkers and FoWs, not much to say.

R3 - Mono Black 1-1 Draw
G1 I beat her down slowly with3/4 goyfs, she plays blockers and try to stay alive and i save FoWs for all her removals. But eventually she dies.
G2 We both drop lands the first turn then she drops a Hymn and takes both(!) of my lands in my hand and ofc I never see another land and she kills me a few rounds later.
G3 Time is called, we play a few land and draw.

R4 - Pox 2-0
G1 and G2 I win easy mode with stalker, goyfs and FoWs, not much to say here either.

R5 - The Gate Draw
Me and one of my teammates draw and t8.

Top8
Pox 2-1
G1 goyfs eats his face after i stifle and wateland him.
G2 He manage to remove my threts and kill me with the rack and Nether Spirit...
G3 I screw his manabase again and play a Jace to seal the deal.

Meandeck MUD 2-1
G1 He first turn plays Chalice of the Void at 1 and I can´t find any answers without my cantrips.
G2 I have FoW for his Metal worker and kills him with stalker pretty much.
G3 He first turn plays Chalice of the Void at 1 again, then second and third turn plays Grim Monoliths. I play third turn Maelstrom Pulse on the monoliths and follow up with Jace for the win.

Finals - Mono Black
I split the price (4 life from the loam and 4 tops) with the girl who managed to take mono black to the finals!

CREATURES (9)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

ENCHANTMENTS (1)
1 Sylvan Library

SORCERIES (7)
4 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach

INSTANTS (22)
2 Snuff Out
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Predict
2 Ghastly Demise

ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Engineered Explosives

LANDS (19)
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
2 Consuming Vapors
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast

Props
Maelstrom Pulse was really good many of the games, especially in this random meta.
A girl in the finals
Friendly people

Slops
Snuff out and ghastly demise vs mono black decks...

[wcm8]

Regarding the sideboard: if we are able to pay for consuming vapors, why are we not able to pay for damnation? I understand that vapors gaining life is relevant, but giving an aggro opponent the option of which creature to lose sometimes matters. 4 mana may be too much for this sort of effect though.

Another option I'm going to test is bitterblossom. A major problem against contro decks is TA's low threat density, and I think bringing in a 'must answer' enchainment may help in those matchups even further.

Edit: Dan, you've created a monster! Four team Americas in the top 16 of scg Memphis. We may need to start testing the mirror!

[mich]

I did test bitterblossom a while ago, and although it single-handedly wins you games against countertop and mirrors, it is at best so-so against anything else.. It turns on opponent's firespout's and fire/ice, wich are dead cards against us otherwise, and the life loss can become significant if you happen to cast at least one snuff out. So, while great against control, it doesn't do anything in our worse matchup's like zoo or merfolk (usually you don't want to play it even if you draw it) and it does'nt apply enough preassure against combo. [Edit] -If TA becoms more popular (and it seems it does, looking at recent SCG'sO top 16 :P) It might be nice sb tech for the mirror though.
As for the consuming vapours - anybody else tried playing perish in that slot? It's been really good for me, and with the recent increase in NO Bant's popularity should become even better.

[wcm8]

Yes, I was implying that bitterblossom would be a sideboard card, not a maindeck option. In the mirror, hitting 2 lands is far easier than getting 4 for jace, and being able to forcefield every turn while still being able to attack is amazing.

[Neffy]

As for the consuming vapours - anybody else tried playing perish in that slot? It's been really good for me, and with the recent increase in NO Bant's popularity should become even better.

The great thing about Vapors is though that it can take out progenitus AND emrakul. Perish does not touch emrakul at all, which i believe is one of the main reasons to SB vapors in in the first place. Depends on the meta i guess..

Im seeing some really varying opinions on Maelstrom Pulse. What is people's experience with these? I am considering 2 SB, but Needle on the other hand helps out alot vs. Deed, jace, elspeth, vial, and thopter combo?

[keys]

I've always considered Pulse a better a maindeck answer (in my list I had a miser Pulse which I was happy with). In the sideboard I'd rather have more refined answers such as Grip and Needle.

[Oxmo39]

Hi guys!
I'm looking at the last successful lists of TA and i saw that most lists used to play a singleton darkblast SB.
Can anyone explain why ? do you often dredge it (when you get it) to feed stalkers ? Or are there any other tricks that i'm missing ?

Thanks for answers and sorry if this is noobish...

[Neffy]

Hi guys!
I'm looking at the last successful lists of TA and i saw that most lists used to play a singleton darkblast SB.
Can anyone explain why ? do you often dredge it (when you get it) to feed stalkers ? Or are there any other tricks that i'm missing ?

Thanks for answers and sorry if this is noobish...

Well that too, but you should be careful with that since you dont wanna see 3 of your own creatures head for the bin, or your newly sideboarded cards..

It is effectively a recurring removal for B. It takes out lackeys, lavamancers, nobles (which often leads to manascrewing your opponent in T1), steppe lynx and confidants.

oh and did i mention that it is recurring? ;)

EDIT: i tried it out last week where i failed überliy dazing a lackey with opponent having mana open, but then threw darkblast at it next turn. god that felt good! I am trying out 2 today :)

[Oxmo39]

Thanks for the quick answer.
Btw, disfigure looks superior to darkblast, by getting rid of almost any critters in aggro legacy decks.

The recursion argument seems weird to me, since it is usually run as a singleton...
Though if you can not brainstorm or ponder before dredging, it would be too bad to waste needed stuff.

[Neffy]

Thanks for the quick answer.
Btw, disfigure looks superior to darkblast, by getting rid of almost any critters in aggro legacy decks.

The recursion argument seems weird to me, since it is usually run as a singleton...
Though if you can not brainstorm or ponder before dredging, it would be too bad to waste needed stuff.

Yeah well, i guess it does, but yet again, if you only use one of those, you get rid of like 1 creature the whole game, and dredging with darkblast is just an optional side bonus!
Sure it can screw your deck up, but we have sooo many cantrips (8-13, varying with predict, jace, library) that help looking for it and exactly the number of cantrips is my 2cent arugment for only needing to run a singleton of darkblast. (although i often dislike only SB'ing a single card in - thus i use 2 :)..)

EDIT: also, it is epic to have your goyf blocked by his goyf, then BS later, fetching darkblast and dealing the final blow with the darkblast he forgot you had in the GY!

[egosum]

Summing up what people said and some more:

-Gets rid of some nasty 1 toughness creatures (lackey, mother of runes, cursecatcher, noble hierarch, dark confidant, golbin welder, ...)
-Incredible to win the Goyfs War. It is specially relevant in the mirror because it aslo helps to get rid of your opponent Otmbstalker while keeping yours alive (and since tombstalker cannot be killed with Sunff Out this play can balance the game in your direction).
-Dredge has 2 main uses: one isfeeding stlaker and the other one and this is very important and relevant since TA actually packs a huge amount of counters, you can Cast darkblast during the upkeed, then dredge and draw it to cast again and kill a 2 toughness creature. This can also be done by casting then playing a cantrip (by with higher cost), if you chain cantrips (or chain them after doing the "upkeep trick") you can have Darkblast reach 3 or higher toughness, but this is cornercase because it needs to be mid to late game and wastes too many resources, nevertheless is interesting to have this in mind.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[jedi_gof]

I play 2 Darkblast in the board, but are even considering mainboarding them instead of some of the other removals (play 2/2 split btween GFTT and snuffout.) They have been all-stars in so many MUs i cant believe it.

It dredges, recurres, fills your GY for tombstalkers/goyfs, is awesome if you dont have a fetch after a bstorm to be able to dredge away cards not needed etc, and so many problematic legacy critters has power 1. I love it, thats for sure.

I went 4-1-1 yesterday btw. How did you do Neffy? (og får du malet noget:D?)

[Neffy]

I play 2 Darkblast in the board, but are even considering mainboarding them instead of some of the other removals (play 2/2 split btween GFTT and snuffout.) They have been all-stars in so many MUs i cant believe it.

It dredges, recurres, fills your GY for tombstalkers/goyfs, is awesome if you dont have a fetch after a bstorm to be able to dredge away cards not needed etc, and so many problematic legacy critters has power 1. I love it, thats for sure.

I went 4-1-1 yesterday btw. How did you do Neffy? (og får du malet noget:D?)

I also have two darkblast SB, and i love them. I went 3-3, lost to enchantress (deed is no use if they get down karmic justice), goblins (missed land drop and counter spells.....) and got a bye in the last game, which is just sad.

(får sgu ikke lige malet så meget for tiden, skal ikke selv brugen alterations, og tror jeg er lidt for dyr til mange af kunderne :b)

[Oxmo39]

Guys, i plan to build this deck but i would like to have informations about a few MU's.
I know this deck is good vs Countertops decks, but how is it against other control decks like landstill or versus combo decks ?
I guess the stifle-wastelands plan crucial here.

I've seen that most of lists run Jace x2 md or in the board. For financial reasons, i can not afford this guy. Do you guys think that I can replace it with Bitterblossom in the board against control decks ? I am completely aware that nothing can replace Jace in his powerness but do you think that BB is a viable option ? Has anyone any experience/feedback with BB ?
I have marked that 8 critters is sometimes low, and upping the count to 10, can be relevant in some MU's...
Thoughts ?

[wcm8]

This deck is one of the most expensive in the format. Goyf, Duals, FoW, it used to run Sinkhole, etc... Saying you can't afford Jace seems kind of unusual since apparently the rest of the deck is not a financial problem.

Jace is such an amazing card in the control matchup that I'm just not sure if there is an equivalent replacement. You may do well to wait until he rotates out of standard, he may drop to a more reasonable price at that point.

Bitterblossom is good and something I'm considering as a 1 or 2-of in the sideboard, but it is not really replacing Jace.

[Zoomer3989]

There were a couple of Team decks that ran a pair of Predict in the main and sided the JTMS. I agree that JTMS should be mained, but you could easily try the other versions and see how they fare. I'm in a similar position, but I might be able to borrow a pair of Jaces until they rotate.

It doesn't seem as necessary as say, maining Tarmogoyf/etc.

[Oxmo39]

Don't get me wrong, i do remember that this deck plays the most expensive cards in the format. But over 100$ for one card is silly and outside the limits i fixed to myself (Not to say that it will end to be banned).
I've bought my cards before the prices raises that much for the 3 last years and never spent more than 60$ for the seas. This guy just costs the double.

Anyway let's speak cards.

I didn't try to compare Jace and BB, but just aked if BB could be viable in the control mu's. I've read in this thread that some players were going to give it a try and i would be glad to hear their feedacks about that..

[wcm8]

I didn't try to compare Jace and BB, but just aked if BB could be viable in the control mu's. I've read in this thread that some players were going to give it a try and i would be glad to hear their feedacks about that..

I've been testing it, and it most definitely is a great card vs. some types of control. A turn 2 bitterblossom against a control deck that can't effectively answer it is practically gg, and is a 'must answer' for many decks, perhaps even moreso than an early Goyf -- drawing spot removal later isn't going to help too much against a swarm of evasive 1/1s. There are plenty of ways to deal with it, but most of them don't really interfere with the rest of TA's game plan, allowing you to focus on disruption or bigger threats while your Fae chip away at their life total. The tokens can also be used defensively by 'forcefielding' opposing goyfs while your Tombstalkers fly overhead.

I don't really think more than 2 is worth it, but it's definitely a strong card to consider in the right matchups.

[keys]

So, 2 lists in the last SCG T8 played 23 lands, only 2 GFTT as removal, and 2 maindeck Jace. I think Jace is amazing in just about everything with blue, but it doesn't really aid any of the toughest matchups for TA, especially tribal. Then again, the high land count does help against Tribal. What do you guys think?

[colo]

I have been playing Team America for a very short while only, and haven't faced a decent tribal deck with it yet - though I believe that the early free counters, free removal on their lords and a few Engineered Plagues from the board, it shouldn't be that hard fending them off? (I can see how Merfolk will give problems due to their evasiveness if this plan fails.)

[ivanpei]

@ Keys, IMO the SCG lists with Jace MD and 23 lands are built for the Team America Mirror. Jace -> Tombstalker. Having stalker bounced is the most annoying thing in the world. More lands also means less chances of getting screwed by wastes and stifles. I think these guys were preying on Drew Levin's prediction that everyone should play Team America.

In an open meta with more randoms, I'd rather have the standard build with -2 Predicts + 1 Hymm, + 1 Library. I find that getting to 4 mana and having the mana open for stifle way too difficult. 2cc spells are what this deck specializes in and it should stick to it. As for beating Tribal, my go to choice is Propaganda. Mana denial + Propaganda is just sweet. You can gum up the ground with goyf and fly over with a stalker.

[rancOr_]

I agree, the Jaces arent needed MD. U dont always have the mana to cast him while predict/extra hymns are very good cards that fit ur gameplan. I would keep the predicts though and probably cut a daze or stifle for the 4th hymn.

[GtF]

I agree that Jace is not necessary at all. He can be good of course but there are other cards that can do the same thing, sometimes better. Bitterblossom seems slow, though it is a tough threat to deal with, but I think you want something that gives you a little more velocity against control - either more discard like thoughtseize (also good vs combo) or dark confidant or something like that. Just make sure not to SB out too many blue cards. I highly recommend dispel.

The matchup against control depends almost entirely on how their deck is configured. If they are the typical control deck that is trying to have game against everything in legacy by having multiple colors and high casting cost spells, it's pretty good. If they are only trying to beat linear aggro and therefore they just run twice as many removal spells as you have creatures, it's pretty much hopeless. Something like monoblack control would be a case where jace would help by not being a creature. But most people don't play that deck.

[GtF]

The extra lands for the mirror thing actually makes sense, I couldn't figure out why they would run so many lands in this deck. My biggest fear is always getting landflooded when I play it. Still doesn't seem worth it for the overall metagame, but if you just want to beat the mirror it's reasonable.

[TUMBLES]

In my slim experience of 73 games with the deck (I keep track of testing in excel...) I wouldn't want Jace in the main. It's very powerful but takes 4 mana - which is another reason why the extra lands are in the versions that run it - and doesn't seem to mesh with the fast, tempo, aggressive game plan.

But, who knows what I know. I've been playing Legacy for 2 months after an 8 year break from this game :laugh:

[Zamussels]

I'll be playing this deck in local tourneys saturday and sunday. I'll let you know how it goes. In the meantime I'm trying to construct a sideboard. The maindeck I'm running is pretty standard (4 of all the staples, 2 snuff out, 2 go for the throat, 1 library, 2 engineered explosives). I've analysed the sideboards of the top 8 decks from the last 3 scg tournies and here's what I'm coming up with:

6 additional removal (consuming vapors, smother, ghastly demise, snuff out, perish, darkblast, maelstrom pulse, diabolic edict)
0-3 graveyard hate (nihil spellbomb, relic of progenitus, tormod's crypt)
2-3 krosan grip
0-2 jace, tms
0-2 situational counters (spell pierce, dispel)
0-4 engineered plague
1-4 catchall answers (engineered explosives, pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, pernicious deed)

It seems that 2 Krosan Grip and 6 removal is a consensus so I'll start with that. This leaves 7 slots for 1 Jace (only have 1, could get a second if really necessary), 2 Spell Pierce (prefer it to Dispel), also I expect a lot of Merfolk so I was thinking of running 2 Llawan and 2 Engineered Plague to finish the sideboard instead of more removal like needle, deed, etc. Maybe I should forego Plague and run 1 Deed 1 Needle? I'm skipping the graveyard hate as I always run it and didn't side it in the last 5 tournaments.

So how does this look? Keep in mind I'm expecting a lot of merfolk, show and tell or natural order decks, some random combo (storm, painter, etc.)

2 Krosan Grip
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Llawan Cephalid Empress
2 Engineered Plague

Thanks for any help or comments!

[TUMBLES]

I'll be playing this deck in local tourneys saturday and sunday. I'll let you know how it goes. In the meantime I'm trying to construct a sideboard. The maindeck I'm running is pretty standard (4 of all the staples, 2 snuff out, 2 go for the throat, 1 library, 2 engineered explosives). I've analysed the sideboards of the top 8 decks from the last 3 scg tournies and here's what I'm coming up with:

6 additional removal (consuming vapors, smother, ghastly demise, snuff out, perish, darkblast, maelstrom pulse, diabolic edict)
0-3 graveyard hate (nihil spellbomb, relic of progenitus, tormod's crypt)
2-3 krosan grip
0-2 jace, tms
0-2 situational counters (spell pierce, dispel)
0-4 engineered plague
1-4 catchall answers (engineered explosives, pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, pernicious deed)

It seems that 2 Krosan Grip and 6 removal is a consensus so I'll start with that. This leaves 7 slots for 1 Jace (only have 1, could get a second if really necessary), 2 Spell Pierce (prefer it to Dispel), also I expect a lot of Merfolk so I was thinking of running 2 Llawan and 2 Engineered Plague to finish the sideboard instead of more removal like needle, deed, etc. Maybe I should forego Plague and run 1 Deed 1 Needle? I'm skipping the graveyard hate as I always run it and didn't side it in the last 5 tournaments.

So how does this look? Keep in mind I'm expecting a lot of merfolk, show and tell or natural order decks, some random combo (storm, painter, etc.)

2 Krosan Grip
2 Consuming Vapors
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Llawan Cephalid Empress
2 Engineered Plague

Thanks for any help or comments!

If you are expecting Merfolk, I don't think E.Plague is ideal against them - they are lord heavy, plague is good against other tribals but I would much rather have an additional explosives out of the board than Eplague. And personally, I wouldn't be a fan of Llawan against Merfolk - they run wastelands and you are 100% nonbasics - and I generally cut Stifle vs merfolk because it doesn't do all that much against them.

And make sure you actually know what you're exchanging... no sense having the "right number" of each type of sideboard card if you don't also have the right number of cards to cut.

My two cents, may be worth more like one cent.

[Lanzorg]

Three cards which can deal with Merfolks other Llawan (that seems to be the best option), are:

- Wash Out: is a cc 3U Sorcery that does the same effect as the Cephalid Empress.
- Mutilate: is a cc 3B Sorcery that gives -X/-X to all creatures where X is the number of Swamp we control.
- Riptide: is a cc U Istant that taps all the blu creatures.

I didn't test them yet, probably soon, but definitely i would prefer Llawan in conjunction with E.E. to destroy any Aether Vial on the board.
If you are awared of Merfolks in your meta you can put in SB any of these cards in 3x switching them as below and renouncing for a copy of Engineered Plague that isn't usefull.

2 x Mutilate
1 x Llawan (only one because is legendary)

I would end up as this. My 2 €/cent :)

[Mark Sun]

Mutilate is 2BB, not 3B.

Realistically Llawan is one of the better hate cards against them, as it doesn't have the inherent weakness to Spell Pierce. I wouldn't play the other two cards, though.

I have some extra spot removal but I'll be taking a closer look at the Merfolk matchup (by far the worst matchup for this deck) as SCG Atanta gets closer (2 weeks).

[Zamussels]

Another card I was thinking about against Merfolk is Pernicious Deed, since it wipes their whole board including Vial. They usually overextend so it could be devastating against them. It will take 2 turns to setup though... Might try that instead of Engineered Plague.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Played Team America in a local tournament today. Didn't know how many players were there and we were kind of late due to traffic jam, so we missed the first round. After that I only lost against Rock and won against Dragon Stompy, UWB CounterTop Walker and BitterStalker.
This was my list:

//Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

//Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
4 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force Of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Preordain
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Sylvan Library

//Sideboard
3 Bitterblossom
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Smother
4 Spell Pierce
2 Tormod's Crypt

The list was awesome. Darkblast was the shit. Sadly, I didn't draw Sylvan Library once. Bitterblossom from the board was pretty strong as well, it won me several games. It really helps a lot to be able to increase the deck's threat density against decks with blue, especially since Bitterblossom is really hard to deal with. Jace most likely wouldn't have won the games I won via Bitterblossom, at least the last game of the tournament against UWB CounterTop. I also brought against Dragon Stompy, where it won a game as well. The only thing I noticed is that there are quite some Tombstalkers running around as of lately, so I might add one or two Go For The Throats for future events.

[Zamussels]

So I did run the deck to 2 local tournaments this weekend. Got destroyed in the first one, but played it again and split the finals in the second one :) Not the easiest deck to pick up and play. Played the mirror match twice and the 2 darkblasts in the sideboard were really good there to make my creatures win all the time. The deck was good against combo like it's supposed to and I even beat G/W creatures/equipment deck thanks to Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed in the sideboard. I'd do a mini-report but nothing interesting happened strategy-wise that hasn't been said yet in this thread.

So I'd say my most useful SB cards were 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Darkblast, 1 Pernicious Deed. Also had 1 Consuming Vapors, 2 Ghastly Demise and 1 Jace that didn't do anything special when boarded in (one guy sided in a white Leyline so Consuming Vapors was actually a dead card). Never had to use Krosan Grip and Nihil Spellbomb as usual, and didn't face merfolk so the Llawan were useless as well. I'd probably play the same maindeck again (normal list with 2 Go for the Throat and 2 Snuff Out), maybe have more Deed and some Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom in the sideboard, or a Perish since it kills Progenitus.

[TUMBLES]

What are opinions on Mind Harness in the board?

Edit: I've been messing around with it on MWS, and against the mid-ranged decks that run goyfs/knight/etc it's flat out won games. I'm not sure if it's better than other options though.

[Lanzorg]

What are opinions on Mind Harness in the board?

Edit: I've been messing around with it on MWS, and against the mid-ranged decks that run goyfs/knight/etc it's flat out won games. I'm not sure if it's better than other options though.

Mind harness is a good card at all, but unfortunatly is specific for red/green creatures. This means we will have a sideboard dedicated to be strong against a single kind of deck (G&R) which are not the worst MUs.
In addition 3 cards on 15 are a lot.
I'd prefer to build the side to be more general as possible, avoiding loss of spaces for specific threats instead of more generic responses.

My current sideboard is this:

SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Consuming Vapors
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Nihil Spell Bomb
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Perish

Probably i will switch the single Perish with another Consuming Vapors and maybe substitute the Engineered Plague and a Maelstrom with 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress. I need to test.
My 2 €/cent.

[Zamussels]

Probably i will switch the single Perish with another Consuming Vapors and maybe substitute the Engineered Plague and a Maelstrom with 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress. I need to test.
My 2 €/cent.

Perish kills Progenitus, which Consuming Vapors won't always do... think I'd rather have one of each than 2 4 CC removal spells.

[Zoomer3989]

Does Team have a weak matchup versus other tempo/midrange decks? I ask because a good portion of my meta is Junk/Excalibur/Bant, so I'm wondering what I might need to shore up those matchups.

This is my current idea for a list:

Creatures (8):

Tarmogoyf x4
Tombstalker x4

Spells (32):

Force of Will x4
Daze x4
Stifle x4
Brainstorm x4
Ponder x4
Go for the Throat x2
Snuff Out x2
Engineered Explosives x2
Hymn to Tourach x4
Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Predict x2

Land (20):

Misty Rainforest x4
Verdant Catacombs x4
Underground Sea x4
Tropical Island x3
Bayou x1
Wasteland x4

Also, any SB suggestions for the aforementioned decks?

[Lanzorg]

Yes Perish kills Progenitus.
Perish is good against any kind of GW Maverick (NO+Prog / PW) whom are spreading a lot here in Italy.
Perish is also good against aggro / combo Elves and for removing Gaddock Teeg altought i'd prefer a spot removal instead.
Definetely is usefull to stopping the race of early-mid game aggro.
But it has a cost: kills our Goyf also and dosn't kill Merfolks.

Instead Consuming Vapor ,despite the fact that is a sorcery, is good against this last MU which is our first nemesis. in fact it annull the ability of Kira, Glass Spinner and reduces the pressing of its race.
So i'd like to put them in 2x.

Maybe it could be usefull also in mirror.

Anyway probably you're right 1 of them is already good. Keep that slot for others things. ;)

The only slot in doubt is the double Nihil Spellbomb against GY. Dredge would be keep with explosives and pierce i presume. Is so necessary to dedicate 2 slots for it? Probably i will change them with 2 Pithing Needle which are always usefull.

My 2 €/cent.

[Worm1605]

Hey guys. I'm currently working on a list. I will post it up after I get some testing done. I do have a question while constructing this. Is it just not possible to play Thoughtseize? It seems real good, but I know the list is very tight. I'm basically running Dans list from dc w/ 2 tweaks. I cut one ponder ( i know) for another library. I think the card is almost just good in the long run plus its a pet card of mine. and i cut one fetch for another bayou. can i cut predict for thoughtseize? or is there anything else?

[Lanzorg]

Library is overpowered but is fragile: with krosan, qasali i don't think it will stay on the board for so long. So this is the reason for mono copy and for playing 10 cantrips instead.

Personally i don't feel the necessity of another bayou althought some lists are running 2 of them: personal POW.

Concerning Thoughtseize i think is bad running them instead of predict for these reasons:

1 - We need blue cards for FoW wich are in a number of 20 without predict and I think they are fewest.

2 - The first turn of the match i will stay open for stifle or daze or brainstorm so i will play thoughtseize at least at turn 2. In this case Tourach is a better option althought I won't chose the card to discard.

3 - Running only 2 Thoughtseize means that I will never see them in time (3,3% of probability to have them on the first hand) and in mid/late game a loss of -2 HP could be fatal.

My 2 €/cent.

[Neffy]

2 - The first turn of the match i will stay open for stifle or daze or brainstorm so i will play thoughtseize at least at turn 2. In this case Tourach is a better option althought I won't chose the card to discard..

..that is propably the best reason for not playing it, i've heard so far. It's pretty obvious, but nice to have confirmed/ see it written.

I tested different other discard cards, but nothing trumphs hymn and i always also keep mana for stifle/daze.

[GtF]

I've been running a version with thoughtseize and it's treated me pretty well. The point about leaving mana open is fair, except that if you tap out turn 2 to hymn someone you're not really leaving mana open then either. Meanwhile with thoughtseize you can wait till turn 2 (not always recommended, but sometimes it is) and then do it and still leave mana open.
Still gotta test Dan's version more to see if I like it better, but I have loved thoughtseize in the deck.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=35424

[Worm1605]

by the by working on a board for my meta. what exactly do the needles come in for besides vial? are we hating on crypt ect?

[SMR0079]

So has anyone figured out a successful sideboarding strategy to beat Merfolk? I honestly don't think you can play the deck in it's cuurent incarnation if you expect to face Folk more then once in an event.

[Irenicus]

3 - Running only 2 Thoughtseize means that I will never see them in time (3,3% of probability to have them on the first hand) and in mid/late game a loss of -2 HP could be fatal.

Actually the probability to have 1 or 2 Thoughseizes in your starting hand when playing 2 in your 60 cards is 22,2%. Don't know if that's enough to include it though.

I myself would play Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize in any deck which plays Snuff Out.

[Worm1605]

Actually the probability to have 1 or 2 Thoughseizes in your starting hand when playing 2 in your 60 cards is 22,2%. Don't know if that's enough to include it though.

I myself would play Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize in any deck which plays Snuff Out.

If I test it will be 3. 3 seize and 3 hymns seems likes ample hand disruption for this deck. Basically froms Dans d.c. deck -1 ponder, -2 predict + 3 thoughtseize. I'm also going to test Clique. Coutertop is pretty popular here in the chi at the moment and it seems like an auto include. again from Dan's dc list -1 daze -1 stalker, + 2 clique. will post a list i am comfortable with in a coulpe weeks after some testing.

[TUMBLES]

So has anyone figured out a successful sideboarding strategy to beat Merfolk? I honestly don't think you can play the deck in it's cuurent incarnation if you expect to face Folk more then once in an event.

An extra explosives out of the board and replacing Stifles with a little more removal makes it a lot more winnable postboard.

My win % game 1 vs folk is pretty atrocious though.

[Koby]

So has anyone figured out a successful sideboarding strategy to beat Merfolk? I honestly don't think you can play the deck in it's cuurent incarnation if you expect to face Folk more then once in an event.

Seeing that EE and/or Damnation can handle once you get to turn 4+, the issue is dealing with early threats.
I would suggest Ghastly Demise to start off (or any other 1 mana removal)

[Jonathan Alexander]

This is basically the whole problem, there is no good black one mana removal. I really want to test Disfigure, but I don't think it's good enough. Right now I just board out Stifles (or Force Of Will against lists splashing a colour) for the third Engineered Explosives, a Ghastly Demise, a Go For The Throat and a Pernicious Deed. It wouldn't want to run the deck in a Merfolk-heavy meta though.

[Neffy]

I've havent had that big problems with merfolk so far, but then again it might come with time.
I believe that if your have at least 5-6 removal cards, you shouldnt worry. And since stifle often is no go against them, you can side in additional deeds, darkblast (for multi-use), and consuming vapors.

EE for 2 screws them up big time through the game, and played wisely doesnt even affect your goyfs.

[Worm1605]

So I just got done playing this deck at the local weekly here in Chicago and did pretty well going 3-1. Here is the list I played:


Spells -26
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
2x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will

Creatures -9
4x Tarmagoyf
2x Vendellion Clique
3x Tombstalker

Artifacts -2
2x Engineered Explosives

Enchantments -2
2x Sylvan Library

Lands -20
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland

Sideboard -15
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ghastly Demise
2x Null Rod
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Krosan Grip
2x Damnation
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor

Played The Rock, Enchantress, Zoo, and Belcher. The only game I dropped was to Zoo and it was pretty abysmal. I tried squeezing Thoughtseize in this deck all week during testing, but found that it really is hard to play when you are running 4 Stifle. I didn't like the cross synergies with Tombstalker and Goyf so decided to cut one Stalker for a Clique as well as a predict for a clique. The Clique was really good for me all day. It increased your clock usually by a whole turn if you also had a stalker in play. I even got to block a Dark Confidant! The Rock was pretty tough but I managed to stick an early Stalker that got there. Enchantress was a cake walk after having turn two hymn with fow back up both games. Belcher was hilarious as i easily took game one and topped decked a EE the turn after he emptied the warrens for 12. I think I could have taken the zoo match up if he didn't have triple wasteland both games, + bad moon backed up by Red balst game two :frown:

Sidebaord choices were mostly meta and were pretty on. There was a Tezz affinity list and a Mono Brown so I think the Rods were a good call. Damnation may seem odd, but it was pretty good for me in testing helping with zoo, gobos and folk. It might not be right though and deserves more testing. Hymn just seems to good to not be a four of. I'm thinking about cutting a snuffout for one, a ponder, or possibly a clique. The card on turn two is just absurd when having counter backup. Didn't play darkblast for meta game reasons which was probably a mistake. I am also seriously considering cutting the Jaces as they don't seem as relevant as they should. What decks exactly are these really good against? Would also like to fit in some pulses if possible to help with the aggro matchups while still having game against pesky artifacts, enchantments and planeswalkers. Got blown out by a resolved Elspeth one game against Zoo. All in all though I'm really happy with the deck and can't wait to play it more. The shear power of this deck is really staggering. Any feedback would be much appreciated!

[Zamussels]

What do you guys think of the BUG Team America spinoffs with Dark Confidant and Terravore (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37279) (GerryT) or Phyrexian Dreadnought (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21532_Bugging_Legacy.html) (Higginbottom)? An improvement on Team America, different decks altogether, or bad attempts to fix something that ain't broke? Wish I had time to test them all against the field but alas, only have time to theorize..

[Zoomer3989]

What do you guys think of the BUG Team America spinoffs with Dark Confidant and Terravore (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37279) (GerryT) or Phyrexian Dreadnought (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21532_Bugging_Legacy.html) (Higginbottom)? An improvement on Team America, different decks altogether, or bad attempts to fix something that ain't broke? Wish I had time to test them all against the field but alas, only have time to theorize..

I actually think it's a better deck, after having tried the Terravore idea. While Terravore is a little bulky, running Dark Confidant with JTMS to draw 3 a turn should be illegal. The only reason I don't like the Dreadnaught idea is having to get both Stifle/Naught, which isn't hard but I'd rather have another threat that doesn't rely on other cards. But that's a personal issue. I'd highly recommend trying the Confidant version, regardless of your additional threat.

[wcm8]

I think that a lot of these decks that have been doing well in the scg opens are geared towards the expected metagame. What would a list built for an unknown metagame look like if it started with the following:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Jace
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
22 lands

16 open slots for removal, disruption, blue cards for FOW, and a couple more beaters.

[Zamussels]

I actually think it's a better deck, after having tried the Terravore idea. While Terravore is a little bulky, running Dark Confidant with JTMS to draw 3 a turn should be illegal. The only reason I don't like the Dreadnaught idea is having to get both Stifle/Naught, which isn't hard but I'd rather have another threat that doesn't rely on other cards. But that's a personal issue. I'd highly recommend trying the Confidant version, regardless of your additional threat.

It's a better deck against what? Combo? Seems to me that the original Team America is already very strong against combo and sort of weak against aggro (Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Affinity) and it seems that a version without Tombstalkers, and adding Confidant + Force of Will + 2 Jace - 2 Ponder and no Top to mitigate the additional damage, and no Engineered Explosives maindeck would be even worse against aggro. In most metagames there are quite a few people running the cheapest aggro decks and not a lot of control so I have a hard time understanding what makes the new versions superior.

Could you elaborate what you tested against and what other than drawing more cards (seems sort of a 'win more' situation to me when you have Jace and Confidant) makes the new versions better against a broad field?

[Zoomer3989]

It's a better deck against what? Combo? Seems to me that the original Team America is already very strong against combo and sort of weak against aggro (Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, Affinity) and it seems that a version without Tombstalkers, and adding Confidant + Force of Will + 2 Jace - 2 Ponder and no Top to mitigate the additional damage, and no Engineered Explosives maindeck would be even worse against aggro. In most metagames there are quite a few people running the cheapest aggro decks and not a lot of control so I have a hard time understanding what makes the new versions superior.

Could you elaborate what you tested against and what other than drawing more cards (seems sort of a 'win more' situation to me when you have Jace and Confidant) makes the new versions better against a broad field?

You don't really lose any percentage against Combo, even with the Stifles gone as you're still running Spell Snare/Pierce. The advantage is that against decks with lots of card advantage, it becomes easier to put yourself into a better position because you don't need to rely on Stifle/Hymn to screw up the opponent enough for your early Goyf to matter. Most of what I tested against with it was Control, specifically Counterbalance, Excalibur, and other Bant decks, but I will admit that it needs more testing against Aggro, though the Terravores are actually good against Goblins IMO.

The version I'm currently testing also isn't exactly the same as either version. I have 3 Terravore with 4 Goyf/4 Confidant because I don't think 2 is enough for threats. I kept the 2x EE and will use 2-3x Ghastly Demise over 2 of the Throat for 7 removal spells, through cutting the Thoughtseize/Inquisition, 1 or 2 Daze, and possibly 1 Ponder, though the last cut is the least likely.

Revealing Forces/Jaces off of Confidant does suck, I agree, but that's simply part of how the deck works. That's also why the Stiflenaught version is good and played.

[nitewolf9]

Tombstalker is bad, people, please don't play it.

However, I'll continue to run it just to prove how bad a 5/5 flyer for 2 is. Don't follow me though, that way lies madness.

[personalbackfire]

Hey guys, had a few questions/concerns regarding this deck ( I am pretty new to legacy). I played a GPT yesterday with a version pretty close to what Gerry used at SCG tournament a few weeks back. List was:

4 WasteLand
4 Underground
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Hymm
3 Go for the throat
1 Doom Blade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
2 Terravore
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

My sideboard was way different, and most likely bad.

3 Engineered Pague
2 Maelstrum Pulse
3 Pernacious Deed
2 Spell Pierce
1 Hurkyls Recall ( saw some afinity/ mud decks)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the loam
1 Echoing Truth

I went 4-2 overall.

Has anybody had issues with the mana in this style of deck/ would adding basics be worth it or help?

Some hands I mulled throughout the day were strictly because wasteland would blow me out, being as I couldn't fetch for a basic. I was also unsure if you are supposed to be keeping one land cantrip hands and just hoping to get there? I am not on the greedy side of players so I don't like doing that but recognize it could be wrong with 2 Ponders and 4 Brainstorms.

When I had mana to cast my spells the deck felt extremely powerful.

Any advice is appreciated thanks,

Steve

[ForlornEgoist]

@ personalbackfire:

In regards to running basics thats of course going to be a personal choice and many players (including myself) are willing to trade mana efficiency for safety from nonbasic hate. That having been said, the arguments for not running basics in TA are exactly the same as Thresh. Firstly, you're a tempo deck. Although your particular build does not run them a majority of TA decks run Stifle. This, in addition to Wasteland, typically means a person will be more fearful to needlessly crack a fetch or overreach and and Waste a land in the hopes that it will slow you down. Secondly, you're running 3 colors without any of the benefits for alternative mana fixing other decks have such as moxen/creatures (Birds, Hierarch, etc.) so you need to assure that essentially any land you play will gurantee that you can play every card in your hand.

As for the one-land hand scenario, this is completely situational. I'm sure any player here can find arguments for or against keeping a one-land hand, and the MU will of course play a factor as well. In a deck that runs 22 lands drawing 2 of said lands in your opening shouldn't be unreasonable, so unless you have a lot of buisness in the opening hand or are confident you won't get mana screwed, it's usually best not to keep it. I've rarely found the "oh, but I have 2+ cantrips in my hand," as a valid argument for keeping an otherwise poor hand. Majority of the time you're less likely to screw yourself by simplying mulling rather than hoping to draw into the cards you need.

Forlorn Egoist

[ComboMan]

This is basically the whole problem, there is no good black one mana removal. I really want to test Disfigure, but I don't think it's good enough. Right now I just board out Stifles (or Force Of Will against lists splashing a colour) for the third Engineered Explosives, a Ghastly Demise, a Go For The Throat and a Pernicious Deed. It wouldn't want to run the deck in a Merfolk-heavy meta though.

Wretech banquet is amazing against aggro decks... Most of the time your creatures are bigger than your oponnent's creatures.
In the first few turns , the only player with creatures in the table is he...so you can use it for early threats too.

[Neffy]

Wretech banquet is amazing against aggro decks... Most of the time your creatures are bigger than your oponnent's creatures.
In the first few turns , the only player with creatures in the table is he...so you can use it for early threats too.

But ghastly demise seems way better in our deck than this. It's instant and we have a lot of cards going in the yard quickly, meaning it can take out almost any creature at the time you would resolve a tombstalker. 'cept very big knights..

[J.V.]

Tombstalker is bad, people, please don't play it.

However, I'll continue to run it just to prove how bad a 5/5 flyer for 2 is. Don't follow me though, that way lies madness.

Dan I love you haha!

[Jonathan Alexander]

But ghastly demise seems way better in our deck than this. It's instant and we have a lot of cards going in the yard quickly, meaning it can take out almost any creature at the time you would resolve a tombstalker. 'cept very big knights..

The thing I dislike about Ghastly Demise is that it makes graveyard hate even better against us. Relic Of Progenitus is really strong against our threats, and having our removal shut off on top of that is to risky. On the other hand, people rarely board in their graveyard hate against me I. Anyway, I think Go For The Throat is superior right now, as Spell Snare isn't too common but Tombstalkers and ridicoulously big Knights are something I face a lot. The only situation where I believe Ghastly Demise to be worth playing is if there's a lot of Goblins or Noble Hierarch fueled decks in your meta, but in this case Darkblast is just awesome.
Also, I'm not too worried about my Merfolk matchup right now to be honest. It's not a great portion of the metagame and Team America still beats almost every other deck easily. This deck is really really strong right now, I have a lot of fun playing it.

[ComboMan]

But ghastly demise seems way better in our deck than this. It's instant and we have a lot of cards going in the yard quickly, meaning it can take out almost any creature at the time you would resolve a tombstalker. 'cept very big knights..

Ghastly demise don't kill black creatures... So it's worst in mirror match up...
I'm not saying Banquet is the right way to go though...is just an GOOD option against folks...

[Worm1605]

I'm having a blast playing this deck. I too am having the same problem with the removal suite. I keep dying to huge KotR & Terravores. I'm thinking smother might be a necessary evil in the board. Any other thoughts?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Go For The Throat? I mean okay, it's not that good against Affinity (at all) but it's amazing against every other deck with creatures. Apart from that, I'm gonna give Maelstrom Pulse a try, let's see how that works out.
And about Affinity, I don't think that's too much of a problem since we still have access to stuff like Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed. Darkblast is also not that bad against them. I'm actually considering to run a Darkblast in the board in addition to the one I run maindeck. Also, I'm probably gonna try out some number of Umezawa's Jitte from the board, together with Bitterblossom. This might actually help with Merfolk, plus Bitterblossom is generally awesome against a lot of decks.

Edit: I'm considering Thrun, The Last Troll as an option against control by the way. What I really like about him is that he just beats every form of control and there are only few ways to stop him. Basically there's only Peacekeeper, recurring Engineered Explosives, Wrath Of God, Damnation and Perish. Plus we have countermagic to deal with these cards (I'm also running the full set of Spell Pierces in the board). I hope to be able to do some testing as soon as my Thruns arrive.

[TUMBLES]

I'm having a blast playing this deck. I too am having the same problem with the removal suite. I keep dying to huge KotR & Terravores. I'm thinking smother might be a necessary evil in the board. Any other thoughts?

I noticed those guys were getting more popular, put some Mind Harnesses in the board. No idea if they're worth it or not, but they generally take care of the problem... and then some.

[rancOr_]

I dont see the problem. Most TA lists are running MD go for the throat,and additional removal on side(like a darkblast,pulse,demise,deed,..)

[wcm8]

Run Maelstrom Pulse, seriously. It is incredibly versatile and frees up sideboard space for other cards. 3 of them is enough along with your other removal.

[JMLL]

Hi all,

I posted it in other forums but I'd also like to share it here, where I think it will be more discussed and where I think I can learn more.

In different moments of the last 2 years I've been toying with a UBg deck without Sinkholes, because I never felt comfortable about using that card over more removal or whatever. To TA's favor, I always had extremely bad results. I tried different combinations and although all seemed quite good on paper, they were never good enough in reality.

Lastly, I saw this "new generations" of TAs without Sinkhole and with Hymn to Tourach and I felt that this was the card I was looking for. This is a more controlish and slow deck than the TAs in the premier, but I think it may be the way to go. So I mixed some lists and played in a 48ppl Legacy tournament this last weekend. Let's start with the list (The name of the deck is a personal pun to some of my friends, so don't take it personally):


THE DECK: Team ItalianeTES
Creatures - 9
2 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Instants - 19
3 Go For the Throat
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

Sorceries - 9
2 Ponder
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers - 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands - 21
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou

Sideboard - 15
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Submerge
1 Life from the Loam


Comments about the deck:
- 9 Creatures.
I always felt this was the right number. And also I'm a fan of 4-3-2 distribution in Tarmos-Stalkers-Vendis. This time I tried a Thrun for a Tombstalker. TBH, a bad move.
- 5 Removal.
My meta is quite crowded with Zoo, Maverick and other kind of aggro. That's why I decided to go for 5 Removals. For more "creature Love" look at the Sideboard.
- 10 Counters
IMHO, this is a quite good combination. Without Mana Denial, Daze is not that good. Later on it's just a Blue card, and you know what that's good for.
- 7 Discard
This was quite hard in the beginning, as I wanted 8, but I don't regret it. T1 Mana-Thoughtsize is really good, but it's also good playing nothing and countering their T2 play, then going for Hymn. The card advantage Hymn gives, added to the "random" bonus of "ouch, I took the only good cards in your hand and I'm going to win the game now" is awesome. For me, right now, Hymn is a key card.
- 2 Jace 2.0
I know this is where things start getting strange. I know Jace has no room in the decklist of the first post, and it would never belong there, but here it shines. It's not that hard to get 4 mana, and you don't mind playing it on turn 5-6 or even later when you've denied your opponent's game and hand. It gives you an edge Vs some controlling decks and lets you play the control role Vs Aggro matchups. If everything goes wrong, it's blue

Side
- 3 Spell Pierce
I was scared of ANT / TES / BELCHER or even Landstill and controlish decks. Just another way to slow them down.
- 2 Krosan Grip + 1 Creeping corrosion
Thopters and the new Affinity are getting popular, you know
- 2 Pernicious Deed
It helps Vs the pairings stated above. It shines in Goblins, Mavericks, Merfolks.
- 2 Maelstrom Pulse
It's a good card to use even Vs ANT / Belcher. It's also more removal for extremly fast decks that deplete their hand
- 1 Ghastly Demise
It may be just another way to stop T1 Lackey or T1 Hierarch
- 3 Submerge
Maverick? Canadian (it's coming back)? Bant? Ok, let's put 3 of these.
- 1 LotL
Although this may seem random, I decided to keep it here just in case. I think it's ace in controlling matchups where it can shine with Jace, or when your mana base is being attacked. It gave me one game Vs Eternal Garden


Brief Tournament Report:
- Round 1 Vs Ugr Tempo Faeries
I lost the dice and I started second on both games. Maybe it was bad luck or maybe not, but start the game with wasteland, wasteland, stifle is quite hard. Eventhough I had options in the second game, this was not enough and I lost extremly fast. (0-1)
- Round 2 Vs Merfolks
This is supposed to be a bad pairing. In fact, I didn't expect it (my bad). I thought that with the awesome quantity of removal I had I could win the game. I won G1 (Jace helped) and he lost G2 when he couldn't kept his 5 card opening hand. It happenz. (1-1)
- Round 3 Vs Canadian
Again, I was expecting to be trumped and mana-denied. Finally, this player was not so PRO at drawing as the first one so I could just develop my game and win. A Tarmowall (C) stopped his ground force so my Vendi could rip him off. After losing the faerie to spot removal, 2 Tarmos were too much for him to handle.
G2 Tombstalker showed why it's in the deck. Flying is tech. (2-1)
- Round 4 Vs Venom Stompy
I know the deck as I've played it. I just kept him off creatures and just had blockers ready for anything. This was the key, keaping him of a free creature. FoW backup was there in case something went out of hand. Game 1 was thoughtsize, Hymn and removal EoT. Easy. Game 2 saw me pack a lot of removal in my deck, avoiding Daze or Spell Snare and going for the destruction of his creatures. Submerge was ace (and unexpected). (3-1)
- Round 5 Vs Eternal Garden
I tried to kill him on the groud, but his force was too big so I decided to block everything I could and start building a Jace threat, that won me the game. G2 I did the same, but I couldn't attack because of an Ensnaring Bridge. This game I used LftL and Jace to recover my wastelands and keeping him off red mana (EE for 4 and Barbarian Ring). The key was to avoid him playing more than one land a turn, destroying Eploration/Manabond. Thrun appeared here, but was useless, as always. (4-1)
- Round 6 Vs Deadguy Ale (ID) (4-1-1)
- TOP8 Vs Reanimator
So, when building the side for my deck I decided to skip the reanimator/dredge/loam strategies and I get paired to this. Ok, let's do our best. G1 Thoughtsize and Spell Snare to his reanimating cards and he just let my creatures go through. Nothing to do. G2 he did a missplay by putting a Leviathan on the field thinking he could handle my attack with this echoing Truth and expected to win the race. Instead, he should have gone for Iona/Blazing Archon/Sphinx of the Steel Wing. Sadly (for him) 2 Tarmos can kick hard, specially if Spell Snare counters the Echoung Truth that could have won the game. WIN
- Semifinals Vs Maverick
I played Vs a friend of mine and we both knew each other's lists. T1 Thougthsize, T2 Hymn can destroy most decks. If you team it up with some Spot Removal and a Tarmowall, you are about to win. Jace came here to make it more obvious he was never going to draw into removal, but the game was about to end anyway.
G2 was extremely Brutal. He mulligans to 6 and goes Mana-> Vial. I play land go, he does EOT Dryad Arbor. T2 Mother of Runes, Hierarch, arbor attacks. I go Hymn. Next turn he plays Scryb ranger attack, I go Hymn. Next turn I counter his Zenith but he still attacks, I go Perni-go. He attacks, I crack perni destroying everything but his lands (he put armor back on hand thanks to Ranger), I lay down a Tarmowall-go, Swords to tarmo? NONO, you replayed your Dryad Arbor, so you have a forest (yeah, the only one) so I play Submerge on my own tarmo :P. That was all. WIN
- Finals Vs Merfolks
I'm still surprised: I just thought that there would be No Merfolks and I had to face 2. I also thought no Graveyard and I also faced 2. Nice read on the meta I got stomped G1, nothing much to say (mana denial FTW). Game 2 I mulligan to 4 and I finish second. That's it. LOST


PLUS:
- Hymn + Thoughtsize. They are really good.
- Jace can fit here. I think so.
- Submerge your own creature can be tech.

MINUS:
- Thrun is a no-no. 4CMC and 2 green is way too much for this deck. Tombstalker here could have been better, or Terravore, maybe.
- Remove the 2x Llawan from the side the night before. That wasn't good.
- Mulligan to 4 in the last game of the day... It simply gives a bad taste.


Overall, a fun day with friends, an ace deck to play and a better memory of this 3 Colour combination... at last!

[a-slice-of-cake]

Here's my two cents, as a veteran tempo player and someone who's interested in playing Team America once I get two more U Seas:

Tarmogoyf and Jace do not go into the same deck, in my opinion. Jace is the king of control cards and is there to grind out tempo/CA. Tarmogoyf is the king of aggro cards and is there to curbstomp the enemy into giblets as quickly as possible. Tempo decks have always felt a little schizophrenic in that we play control and aggro simultaneously, but 4 mana is a lot for a sorcery-speed card, especially when you consider we're running Wasteland (so our land count, despite being around 20, honestly isn't as high as it looks).

Don't get me wrong, Bob + Jace is good. Stupid good. So good, in fact, that if you want to run those guys together you should build a deck more around that and stop playing Goyf/Stalker who do nothing but smack the opponent around i.e. switch to Ugb(x) Landstill. By trying to cram the grindy, superb control package of Bob and Jace into a deck that seeks to put an aggro-like clock on the board, we dilute and hurt both strategies.

Also, like nitewolf said, a 5/5 flier for two is just so bad guys, don't run it anymore. *rolls eyes* Tombstalker is the thing that makes this deck so different from the other tempo decks. It's the reason Team America eats Can. Thresh alive (and I say this as a Can Thresh player -- the only things that scare me more than a resolved Tombstalker are Trinisphere or Chalice at 1).

To people worried about being throttled by giant Knights and Terravore (or even sufficiently-pumped Goyfs): Answers (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/162.html) exist. (http://magiccards.info/query?q=mind+harness&v=card&s=cname) And good ones, too. Sure, Snuff Out hurts. Does it hurt more than a Knight to the dome? I didn't think so. And if people are entertaining the idea of running whopping-4-mana-sorcery Jace in this deck, I'm sure Mind Harness can get some lovin' in the sideboard, or at least Threads. Or even Engineered Explosives to wipe out all the little bastards in one go. It's not like EE is ever gonna hit Stalker anyway.

Once I get 2 more seas I'm going to convert my Can Thresh to a Team America list I like and see how it rolls. My guess is that aggro matchups will be slightly harder as I lose my beloved bolt and fire//ice, but control matchups will be much easier thanks to Hymn/Sieze and massive dudes.

One last thing: A lot of people aren't running Stifle. Why?

[Worm1605]

just went 3-1 taking first (thanks for the late night reminder / rub in ac3eb) the weekly here in chicago. pulse is the real deal. helped in many matchups. it also gave me a couple more slots in the board to try out terravore in addition to the goyfs, stalkers, and cliques im playing main. kotr gives me lots of problems and i figured this is an extra threat and usually trumps knight in p/t. really want to give kira a try against all the spot removal this deck seems to have problems with (got pathed twice in one matchup against zoo what a beating!) in terms of jace i run him in the board not main. i did cut him for a bit but decided he is quite good in many matchups. he is often a win con if you have a heavy land disruption hand and just fatseel them out of the game. plus if there was ever a card that gave you tempo, jace is the man.

anyways the real reason i am posting at this ungodly hour is because the new spoiler was just leaked. wanted to ask everyone there opinion of:

Mental Misstep {pu}
Instant (U)
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 1.

seems promising. being able to hold stifle and misstep open, having to stifle and still being able to play misstep seems good. it counters a bunch of relevant spells; vial, lackey, thoughtseize, barnstorm, STIFLE (ehm mirror), d rit, high tide the list goes on. really its just like playing snare since the mana advantage is the same if you cast it for free. definitely going to try testing at least out of the board.

speaking of pulse this might be a good replacement yet another spoiler:

Beast Within 2g
Instant (U)
Destroy target permanent. Its controller puts a 3/3 green Beast creature token onto the battlefield.

this thing takes out lands! and at instant speed! its really a question if this trumps the pulse effect and obviously not giving a creature? none the less its nice to see some new tech in the new set that doesn't have a red expansion symbol.


edit: mental misstep is a phyrexian U as in you may pay u or 2 life. How does one create phyrexian mana colors?

[Worm1605]

thanks for the feedback. in terms of the removal suite i was already running 2 go for the throats and two snuff outs main. having acess ot demise, darkblast, and now pulse sb. it was just wondering if people had tried perish or its ilk.

[Jonathan Alexander]

If Mental Misstep isn't fake, it's a house. I was really hoping for a card for U that counters a spell with converted manacost one. Now we got one that we can cast for free. I really want to work it into the deck, but I don't know what to cut. It might actually be only sideboard material just for the aggro matchups (countering Æther Vial, Goblin Lackey, Wild Nacatl; early pressure in general). I'm going to order a set of them as soon as the set comes out.

By the way, about Phyrexian mana. It just means that you can either pay mana of that colour or two life. You don't need special stuff like snow lands.

[wcm8]

If tempo thresh-style decks remain viable after the format shake up post-NPH (pretty sure they will!), team America is the best variant in my opinion. Running 4 mental misstep is pretty much an auto-inclusion. I would probably start finding space for it by reducing the number of Daze to 2-3, and then go from there.

Let's also not forget the new "snuff out" card: 1BB (Phyrexian black) that gives a creature -5/-5. Worth considering.

[Zamussels]

If I were to add 4 Mental Misstep I would cut at least 2 Daze, 1 Snuff Out (out of 2 I run) and either cut a Stifle or the 3rd Daze. The best Daze is always the first anyway!

[wcm8]

Snuff Out is really there for answering an early creature, and with Mental Misstep we now have additional ways to answer the feared T1 Lackey. (Not saying that Goblins is our biggest problem matchup or anything, but the card is definitely a must-answer.)

Some percentages to put things in perspective:
65% chance of opening with either MM or FoW in your starting 7
74% chance of answering Lackey turn 1 on the draw (4 Fow, 4 MM, 2 Snuff Out, 70% if -1 Snuff Out)

This is pretty good, especially considering they only have 40% chance of even drawing Lackey in their opening 7. Also, it is entirely possible that Goblins might not even adopt MM into their deck.. maybe, maybe not, hard to say what's going to happen with this card in the format.

Re: Dismember.. it can hit opposing Tombstalkers and Dark Confidants, and like Snuff Out doesn't always require life later on in the game. However it is _not_ free, so you can't for example tap out to play Hymn to Tourach AND kill their threat at the same time. Hence, I would not remove Snuff Out completely from the list. It does however have the advantage of being able to kill a resolved Magus of the Moon, in case that deck ever gains popularity for whatever reason.

This deck is going to LOVE mental misstep. One of the problems is that TA has is a somewhat low threat density. Being able to answer a topdecked Swords/Path or Thoughtseize at any stage of the game without card disadvantage is huge.

However, MM's existence raises questions as to inclusion of Stifle... is 4 still correct? Should we drop to 3, or perhaps even move the card to the SB or remove it entirely? I think the card still remains versatile and essential enough to our gameplan that it should stay in as a 4-of, though the main deck is beginning to look a bit crammed.

Here's my early draft:

20 Lands
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Mental Misstep
4 Stifle
- - - - - (these above 48 should not be changed in my opinion)
3 Ponder
2 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Go for the Throat
1 Snuff Out
(3 flex slots)

The flex slots could be 2 Jace, 1 Sylvan Library, more removal, the 4th Ponder... Not sure what the optimal list would look like at this point.

[a-slice-of-cake]

Once again, we shouldn't even be thinking about putting Jace in TA, especially if we're not playing Bob (and with 4 Stalkers we better not be). It's a square peg in a round hole. Have we thought about Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek? Now that there's misstep, we don't have to rely solely on Daze to stop a 1 drop if we're on the play and want to tap out for a sorcery.

I agree, Stifle's just as nuts as it always has been, especially considering how Fish and Gobbos are now splashing into other colors and use fetches to do so. Sure there are more ways to stop Stifle, but if opposing missteps don't stop our stifles, they'll stop whatever other 1 drop we play. We thrive on tempo, as we love to keep mentioning; Stifle is still one of the best tempo-disrupting cards printed, regardless of there being efficient answers to it.

Sylvan Library is delicious, by the way. I wonder if I can incorporate it into my Thresh? Hmmm...

[GtF]

Mental Misstep seems really good in this deck. Like others mentioned, it deals with a lot of cards that are problematic for the deck like swords, path, and vial. I don't think it necessarily means we should remove stifle though. After all, we will have our own missteps to counter theirs when stifle wars occur, and we still play plenty of 1 mana cards so it's not like we will be blanking any and all targets for their missteps by removing stifles.
I think some number of missteps is right but I'm not sure it's 4. I know that seems strange since it counters 1 drops and all, but it's one of those cards that's not so useful in multiples. A lot of the big wars over 1 mana cards happen a few turns later anyway. I could be wrong about this though. A card like this will be at its best in TA, where you can shuffle extras away later.
It makes me even more conflicted about thoughtseize - on the one hand, seeing their hand is great because then you know whether to shuffle away extra missteps. On the other, thoughtseize is countered by misstep and Hymn is not. It also makes tapping out for hymn less risky when you can back it up with a misstep.

[Parax]

Once again, we shouldn't even be thinking about putting Jace in TA, especially if we're not playing Bob (and with 4 Stalkers we better not be). It's a square peg in a round hole. Have we thought about Duress or Inquisition of Kozilek? Now that there's misstep, we don't have to rely solely on Daze to stop a 1 drop if we're on the play and want to tap out for a sorcery.

I agree, Stifle's just as nuts as it always has been, especially considering how Fish and Gobbos are now splashing into other colors and use fetches to do so. Sure there are more ways to stop Stifle, but if opposing missteps don't stop our stifles, they'll stop whatever other 1 drop we play. We thrive on tempo, as we love to keep mentioning; Stifle is still one of the best tempo-disrupting cards printed, regardless of there being efficient answers to it.

Sylvan Library is delicious, by the way. I wonder if I can incorporate it into my Thresh? Hmmm...

With Jace and Brainstorms, it'll be really easy to run Tombstalker with Bob. Don't see what the point of not doing it is.

[Worm1605]

With Jace and Brainstorms, it'll be really easy to run Tombstalker with Bob. Don't see what the point of not doing it is.


The amount of damage you deal yourself in a game is very relevant. b/w force, fetchlands, snuff out, sylvan library, (some people thoughtsieze), and now mental misstep, dealing even 2-3 more damage to yourself via BOB vs. an aggro opponent will often cause you the game. there is a reason many people are running consuming vapors in the board and some even try to fit jitte in with such a low threat density. Not to mention if you drop bob blind an flip a stalker you pretty much just killed yourself.

obv Bob is the nuts I just think if you want to run tombstalker you can not run bob in this deck too. thoughtseize is obviously very good too, but it doesn't get played in this deck very often either.

just my two cents

[Fatal]

So maybe run Death's Shadow if its so suicide shell ;) I'm actually working on Team Suicide with Stalkers BoPs, MM, FoWs, GftT (avoiding MM), maybe even new opt..

[wcm8]

The optimal creature base in this deck is most definitely 4 Tombstalker and 4 Tarmogoyf.

You can try minor deviations, eg: -1 Tombstalker +2 Vendillion Clique, but really, Tombstalker is the best creature aside from Goyf for this deck. He dodges some common forms of removal (Burn, Darkblast, Smother, Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, etc.), but more importantly, he puts on a quick clock. Drawing cards is nice, but it means nothing if you can't capitalize on your other plays and end the game in short order. Plus, in the mid-to-late game, Tombstalker is a much better topdeck, since he puts you back into a winning position whereas Bob does not. Bob is arguably better in control and combo matchups, but aggro is such a huge portion of the field that a big body and evasion is important.

Death's Shadow is just garbage in my opinion. Maybe he can find a home with the new 2 drop that pumps for Phyrexian mana, but he definitely doesn't belong in Team America.

[egosum]

There's been a lot of time since I give up playing Team America, for metagame issues basically. Nevertheless with NPH completelly spoiled I decided to make a twek to my old list and do you know what I found, extreme efficiency and lots of fun, I mean I' ve never enjoyed playing TA since I stop playing it like this. I ' ve tried all the Hymn versions, I even tried to rebuild a Sinkhole version, but none of them were good enough because TA real problems were still out there. NPH changed this things, quite a lot. We have 2 new cards to work with, of course they have been discussed but I'd like to dedicate a few lines to give my thoughts:

-Mental Misstep

Such a beast, not in every deck (it seems everyone want 4 of for their deck, whatever strategy they follow, even if the deck has 0 sinergy). In TA this card is best suited that most of other decks just because if deals with one of the main concern the deck has: Swords to Plowshares. More than any other tempo decks TA suffered from this, not only for packing very few vulnerable, to this removal, creatures but because playing a Tombstalker wastes resources (this means you cannot play double tombstalker as often as we'd like to).

-Dismember:

I' m not 100% sure about this one, but I' m giving it a try. It's huge in the mirror, only a little worse against Reliwuary or counterbalance (and coutnerbalance is in dark times nowadays)

This is the list I assembled:

Mainboard 60

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker

4x Brainstorm
4x Preordain

4x Force of WIll
4x Daze
4x Mental Misstep
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

3x Dsimember
2x Go for the Throat

4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard 15

3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
2x Krosan Grip
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Engineered Esplosives
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Darkblast

That's a lot of countermagic, isn't it? But every card has its own purppose.

Team America is meant to be a Tempo deck (since it was born) and with the time it seems that it lost its focus, I mean hymn to Tourach is such a great card but is not a Tempo card by nature, it only provides tempo if it picks the correct cards in the correct moment. Definitely if give cad advantage, but this is not always what we need. When I played Hymn there where lots of times where I didn't want to tap ou on turn 2 to play it, sometimes because I had stifle or brainstorm, sometimes because I hade a Go for the throat. You may Agree with me that playing Stifle will provide tempo 100% of the times, so it seemed a better choices, even because we can fall on a Daze if we try to play HtT on turn 2, and this is not good.

Playing this coutnermagic suite we have the first turns under control, and when I mean first turns I mean the turn when our opponent is low on lands. And this seems what we need to keep the race balanced in pur favor.

We have 8 coutnerspells for 1 cost removal and seven for 2-cost removal, pluse 4 conditional (which are daze). This is enough to keep our monster live long enough to finish their job.

Playing such a big number of blue cards is also a benefit since sometimes, su to playing a tighter blue base I found myself with FoW and no card to pitch.

Spell Snare is also great for dealing with opponent's goyf and Mystics (that are played a lot in these days) or Pridemages. Well I'm not gonna make a list of every target, because you already know.

It also opens the Sideboard. Since TA played few countermagic (normally 8 cards dedicated maindeck) we try to support this with extra disruption cards in the sideboard (Spell Pierce, Duress, Thoughtseize, Dispel...). This seems not necessary anymore, so now we have more room to deal with creatures and Jace (another TA Nightmare, I0 ve nveer thought playing JAce ourselves in the Side was a great strategy, TA's mana base is too tight to support it).

What do you think, I mean you that have been playing TA all this time I haven't, for sure will have constructive criticism to what I say.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.D. extra note. Maybe you think Nihil is not needed or maybe Extirpate. I like to play both in this numbers becuase dredge is gaining popularity and Extirpate give versatility (against dredge, combo or sombo control builds)

[keys]

Snuff Out or Maelstrom Pulse seem a lot better than Dismember, especially paired with GFTT. Also, I don't think Snare is quite as powerful as Hymn... You still have Daze (and Force) for your opponent's turn 2 play.

[egosum]

No offense, but I was expecting something more resaoned. I mean Why is maelstorm pules (that costs 3) better than dismember? I can see that Snuff out is in some situations better (but still think are too close).

Baze is good but Spell snare is a hard counter that always does his job, not as Daze nor Hymn. I just wanted to know what is behind your reaswoning, I tried to do it, and hence there is my long post.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[keys]

I think if you're going to pay 4 life to kill something, you might as well play Snuff Out, which hits creatures like Dreadnought, Knight, and Terravore, and costs 1 mana less. You've already got GFTT to hit Stalkers. For 3cc removal, Pulse is the best there is.

Black based removal is a very nuanced decision, but I think this combination of cards compliments each other well:

2 Go For the Throat
1 Snuff Out
1 Maelstrom Pulse

SB:
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Submerge/Smother/Deed/ or Vapors

Post board, the Demises help a lot against weenie/tribal aggro, where the maindeck removal can be lacking. Submerge, Deed, and Vapors are more powerful options but less versatile.

Preboard:
2 artifact creature removal
3 black creature removal
4 nonblack/nonartifact removal

Postboard:
Up to 8 artifact creature removal
Up to 6 black creature removal
Up to 10 nonblack/nonartifact removal

Also you have a nice curve with free spells up to CMC4.

[metamet]

Hey there everyone. I don't browse forums as often as I should, but I would consider myself fairly fluent with this deck. I wanted to chime in and share a few things.

For those naysaying the inclusion of Jace with Tombstalker, I would advise you to try it out. I would go so far as to simply say you're wrong. Jace is amazing in this deck, with either bobs or stalkers, and they give you a very strong late game if it ever goes that far. And, in certain match ups such as rock, dead guy, and bant, it's not uncommon to win the game off of a properly utilized Jace. Contrary to popular belief, the best mode for Jace is not always brainstorming, despite how strong it is. With a stalemate in board presence against decks that run more creatures, the unsummon can blow people out, especially if you have an extra counter sitting around ready to eat up the recast creature.

My current list, taking numerous top 8/4/1st places in a well developed midwest metagame. I have been developing it for a while and would encourage anyone new to this deck to give it a twirll, tweaking according to your meta:

4 Tarmogoyfs
4 Tombstalker
1 Terravore
1 Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Smother
1 Go for the Throat

4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest


A few thoughts...

Sometimes it would be nice to have a nonbasic somewhere, but there is something beautiful about fetching a sea, a bayou, and a trop (typically in that order) and being able to play every spell on the curve, including the double BB hymn, BB tombstalker, GG terravore, UU kira, and UU jace.

Now the terravore, kira, and jace may raise some questioning eyebrows. First we'll talk about the Jace.


Jace is one of the best cards in the deck. You can pitch it to force, play it and divert attention away from your life, play it and unsummon creatures in order to fog or alpha strike, brainstorm and ditch the useless cards in hand, fateseal your opponent to keep them off of removal or creatures (since they are typically only holding a couple cards in hand), fateseal yourself in order to keep the pressure rolling and have two imposing win conditions (with creatures and jace on board it can really turn a player on tilt), and simply ultimate to win. Jace wins the odd matchups against Lands and other tempo decks. Unsummoning a tombstalker is pretty rough. Two of seems about perfect, as you don't always want to see it, but it can be a godsend in almost all late matches.


Terravore is big and has trample. Having a 9th beafy threat is really helpful in a lot of matchups, especially if you run into a clever person looking to extripate one of your threats after they kick a gatekeeper. If someone establishes the swords combo and is capable of infinitely chumping your stalker, the terravore squeezes by. it's great against elves for the same reason, but elves isn't terribly tough anyway.


Kira, the Great Glass Spinner is one of the best cards in this deck. I picked a few of her up when she was only a couple of a bucks and I am not surprised to see her sitting at $16. I run one main, one in the side. I typically lead with her and follow with a stalker or a goyf, and holding the extra safe counter in your hand means you win that game. I have had a few times where someone has tried to double swords/plowshares her instead of a tombstalker only to have their second removal spell be countered. She also beats for 2 in the air. Part of me doesn't want to be divulging how perfect of an addition she is to this deck with the GP coming up, but I can't help but praise her as being the unlimited counterspell for those tricky removal spells that daze can't deal with late game.




And I am currently experimenting with Misstep and a super secret tech. Since it could be embarrassing if it doesn't play out well, I'll wait to announce what it is until I know if it's good. :smile:

[NesretepNoj]

Do any of you think, that the printing of Mental Misstep makes Sinkhole viable again? Like egosum just pointed out, this deck started out as pure tempo based deck. From my point of view, Sinkhole has always fitted the strategy of the deck better than Hymn to Tourach, but has been held back by Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, and Sensei's Divining Top. As it happens, Mental Misstep is an answer to all of these, but is it enough to revive it?

By increasing the mana denial plan, you gain the added benefit of making Mental Misstep (and Daze) better as the game progresses.

Is it just me desperatly wanting to blow up lands again by paying BB, or is there actually something to it?


1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
4 Snuff Out
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

[Jonathan Alexander]

If they have one-drops, they're going to play them, no matter if they have two lands or three. But if Mental Misstep is such a huge force in the format that decks are packing less one-drops, Sinkhole might become slightly better. But with loads of one-drops running around in the format, Sinkhole is way to slow in my opinion. Even a turn two Wasteland is often subpar, at least if your opponent had some business on turn one. Against aggro I'd still rather cast a Tarmogoyf and start using my Wastelands on turn three.
Apart from that, I'm definitely going to try out Mental Misstep instead of Hymn To Tourach, but Hymn has won me so many games, it's not even funny. It doesn't even really matter what you hit with it, as long as you hit two cards it almost always wins you the game when it resolves. What I also dislike about cutting it is that without it, you have less ways to deal with your opponent's big creatures. Sure discard isn't the most reliable way to get rid of them, but it definitely helps against them. Mental Misstep on the other hand helps with early threats and deals with spotremoval for your creatures, which is definitely an important advantage.

[egosum]

I think if you're going to pay 4 life to kill something, you might as well play Snuff Out, which hits creatures like Dreadnought, Knight, and Terravore, and costs 1 mana less. You've already got GFTT to hit Stalkers. For 3cc removal, Pulse is the best there is.

Black based removal is a very nuanced decision, but I think this combination of cards compliments each other well:

2 Go For the Throat
1 Snuff Out
1 Maelstrom Pulse

SB:
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Submerge/Smother/Deed/ or Vapors

Post board, the Demises help a lot against weenie/tribal aggro, where the maindeck removal can be lacking. Submerge, Deed, and Vapors are more powerful options but less versatile.

Preboard:
2 artifact creature removal
3 black creature removal
4 nonblack/nonartifact removal

Postboard:
Up to 8 artifact creature removal
Up to 6 black creature removal
Up to 10 nonblack/nonartifact removal

Also you have a nice curve with free spells up to CMC4.

First of all, I want to point out that I' m not saying Dismember > Snuff out, just that is worth testing. The idea is that you can play it modeling its cost to the needs of the moment, I mean if you need the mana and don't worry about lifes, then you can play it for 1 + 4 life, but if lifes become more important, when the games goes thorugh, you can play it for 2+2 or just 3+ 0 lifes). And due to the targets you said I' m afraid the only relevant one is KotR, this is because you can hit the Dreadnought with MM and Terravore is not played a lot. Plus while you can kill Reliquary with Snuff out, you cannot deal with a Tombstalker, nor Dark confidant (both see more play than Terravore and dreadnought).

So I can agree with you that Snuff Out is a maindeck contendant. But Maelstrom Pulse is just not fitting TA strategy 3 CC is a bit too much for a Sorcery card in a tempo deck. When you can pay its cost confrotable the game will be in a mid-late, to late stage, and the deck will play unconfortable in that point. I can see Pulse as a sideboard card, if you are very worried about Jace specially.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[lolosoon]

I have a question 'bout the Merfolk Matchup.

I know the numbers are far from being in our favor, and I don't know if MentalMisstep balance or worthen the matchup...

So, how can I make my Merfolk matchup better ? SB Llawan seems off-curved, and E.Plague is worthless (as is Infect).

3 Deed from the board along with G.Demise and Smother and 4-5 removal MD is the answer ?!

With Pierce 'gone' replaced by MM, Deed seems easier to cast vs the Fish tribe, and a good overall answer vs other tribal or aggro deck (alas, a bit slow).

Is there anyone with some ideas/results about this particulat matchup ?

[nitewolf9]

I played a 10 game set vs merfolk yesterday with a 2 Snuff Out, 3 Maelstrom Pulse removal suite and 4 Misstep, 4 Force, 3 Daze, 4 Stifle, 4 Hymn configuration. The merfolk deck was running 4 Missteps (Alex's new list I believe).

It was 6-4, favored for Team America. The games I lost were very close as well. I'm positive vs the deck in tournament play, and the matchup is not actually that bad. It is very close and comes down completely on tempo. The best thing for the matchup is more instant speed removal, and extra EEs help.

Dismember would have been a better removal spell than snuff out in the matchup, but Pulse was surprisingly good. I still think 3 is 1 too many though, and am now running 2 Pulse, 1 Dismember, 1 Smother, 1 EE with 2 more EE's in the board. Demise is great and I think consuming vapors might be worthwhile to bring in as I find myself just playing into daze all day long against that deck with all my spells. Playing around daze will loose you more games than it wins.

Misstep was either pretty good or dead against them, but being able to blow them out if they keep a land light hand and bank on vial is nice. It is obviously a lot better on the play as you can fight them with daze as well.

[lolosoon]

I can see the benefits of EE over Deed mana wise speaking, and it seems that consequent removal package is a part of the answer...

...the other part is beeing a good pilot.

Thanks Dan for the quick answer !

[metamet]

I have been testing with Misstep...

What I've found:

It's best to drop Stifle in favor of Misstep rather than running both of them. Hymns are strong, can't remove them; our creature base (I run 10... been good) can't be reduced, and we need about 4 removal spells in order to feel confident in most matchups.

Daze and Misstep do completely different things. I still run 3 daze. Going to 2 felt very unreliable and much worse.

Cutting cantrips is rarely a good idea. I run 3 Ponder/4 Brainstorm, and I am comfortable with it. Two can be okay.

I think two of Jace in America is something I would never cut. Jace gets there, plain and simple.

In my testing, I found that I was best off going -4 Tombstalkers, -4 Stifle; +4 Bob, +4 Misstep in order to fit Misstep in.

Running both Stifle and Misstep made for a lot of dead late game cards. Sure, you can stifle something or hope they play a 1 drop, but you're not furthering your game plan. Unless you have a board presence, you're just flailing about and reacting to their unnecessary cards. Bob and Misstep give you card draw and protect. Bob and Jace is just... great. Bob and Hymn is monster CA as well.

This changes the deck and how it operates in a lot of ways.

Anyone else been toying with what to drop and what to keep? The deck sort of has to shift its weight around in a lot of ways to make room for Misstep, but I think it'll be a profitable decision. Same as when we went from Sinkhole to Hymn.

[klaus]

I recently ended up with the list below.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Brainstorm
3x Preordain
2x Ponder

4x Force of WIll
3x Daze
4x Mental Misstep
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Stifle

5x meta-gamed creature removal

4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
1x Extirpate
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x One sided Relic thing
2x Pithing Needle
2x Krosan Grip
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Darkblast

[egosum]

@metamet: maybe we are playing a different kind of deck. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, here is Dan to enlighten us if I am, but TA was, as I said before, a tempo deck, designed to win while keepingthe Tempo on his side as main strategy, this means that most of the cards it plays are meant to rule the early game, or make the mid game seem the early game. This is why Stifle is so important, and this is why Jace is not fitting the strategy, at least main deck (I don't like it in the side neither, but I can accept that in certain metas he can be just OK). Also if you play enough cantrips 8 creatures should be enough, jsut because the original dueto is the most efficient pack we can play, so unless I 'd like to include some metagame creatures (like Trygon Predator or Vendilion Clique) I won't touch that, if you feel you are drawing few creatures just add some more cantrips, this seems more efficient to me jsut because cantrips not only help digging for the mosnters, but also helps reaching Stalker's threshold or any other answer you may want. Plus you said adding Dark COnfidant, Bob is not TA material, he is very nice in a BUG threshold deck, but this deck is not TA anymore, because another distinctive point of TA has always been playing big creatures that finish their job very fast (each should finish the game in 4/5 turns), this also gave TA the edge in other threshold mirros (like Canadian for instance).

About what you said of toying on what to drop or what to add, lots of people is discussing it here, I' ve posted a huge post, just a little above (post #1205), giving the reason o each card I play there, even MM.

@Klaus: what do you exactly want by posting that list, I'm afraid that is even in the Forum's rules that you should give a little explanation of the purppose of your post, rather than posting single lists floating on the Topic.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[nitewolf9]

I'm not going to touch on cutting stifle a whole lot, but many people seem to forget that when the card isn't hitting fetchlands it is usually defending your manabase from opposing wastelands. Just something to consider. It is very rarely a dead card and often will steal games on its own. Also, the very threat of stifle makes your opponents play around it, even if you have boarded it out. Like daze it can do its job when it's not even in the deck, especially if you show it to them in game 1.

Slowing down the deck with Jace and Bob sort of steals a lot of the power you get from Mental Misstep. As good as it is to counter a removal spell on confidant, you still need to end the game or you will be drawing dead or inappropriate answer cards (daze, mental misstep, hymn) as your opponent continues to play threats you can't deal with. Jace is also not much of a threat vs Tribal decks and combo, and forces you to keep making land drops instead of cantripping into gas. The card is insane vs control and mid range decks, but those are not prevalent enough to justify such a commitment. Hence why I play it in the board. It is a giant threat in matchups that have too many ways to control your creatures.

[Deady]

Tombstalker is like your best friend in TA; Bob doesn't even compare and doesn't fit in the strategy at all. I also wouldn't recommend cutting Stifle for Mental Misstep, ever.


Playing Misstep only to counter opposing Missteps is just wrong; you'll need to come up with much better reasons to maindeck Misstep in TA.

[Jonathan Alexander]

The reason to run Mental Misstep in Team America is clearly spotremoval, since Swords To Plowshares and Path To Exile really can ruin your day. Also, Force Of Will is rather bad against the more aggressive decks packing these cards, so you can now comfortably board out your Force Of Wills without having to be too afraid of your opponents' spotremoval. If these decks start running Mental Misstep as well, that's another thing, but between Stifle, Wasteland, Daze, Hymn To Tourach and all your other stuff, it will be rather hard for them to resolve two of these cards while still maintaining aggression. Apart from that I don't think Mental Misstep is too strong in Zoo anyway, so I'm not afraid of that.

[Zamussels]

This deck wasn't appearing in SCG top8 for a while, but Edgar Flores just got another top8 with it in Charlotte. I think the deck is still as good as it was, just people have moved on to other shiny toys and it is expensive so not many people play it.

Also has anyone considered or tested a Trinket Mage package in this deck like it is getting popular in RUG stifle builds? We already run Explosives, so could throw in a Basilisk Collar to race aggro easier, a Dreadnought as an extra threat, Pithing Needle in the SB... Seems pretty good to me, with I had someone to test with!

[Worm1605]

So after having tested Mental Misstep quite a bit I think it's fair to say that this deck benefits from it much more than other decks, save maybe folk which is just great for us :rolleyes: . Anyways I have found that I often don't want to draw to many, or cut all the dazes either. This is the list I have been testing, and will probably run with for a while.

Team America -60

Creatures -8
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker

Spells -29
3x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Mental Misstep
3x Daze
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
2x Snuff Out
4x Force of Will

Planeswalkers - 2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantments -1
1x Sylvan Library

Lands -20
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard -15
2x Tormods Crypt
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Darkblast
1x Life from the Loam
1x Pernecious Deed
3x Krosan Grip
1x Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Engineered Explosives

The one issue I have is not having the 4th removal spell main deck. The way I figure with Snuff Out + Misstep that is a lot of life to pay. You are often Snuffing Out there turn 1 play anyways which Misstep can potentially counter. I also over compensated with removal in the sideboard. If anyone sees a cut for maybe a Dismember or a 3rd Go for the Throat I would like to hear it.

Kira has been really good, and with the inclusion of Misstep, it makes it that much harder for opponents to kill our threats.

I used to run two Libraries and really like the card in this deck with all the fetches so I have a hard time cutting the last one.

I did cut a fetch for a second Bayou, because 1. I hate loosing to Wasteland, and 2. It helps cast my sideboard cards more easily.

Sideboard is largely for my meta seeing lots of aggro and graveyard based decks. If I bring this to the Grand Prix I would probably cut something for a second Llawan. Any feedback would be much appreciated!

Edit: Moved to Kira to the board for the 4th misstep. It's that good. Found Loam to be awesome in the board too. Still would like to find enough room for another go for the throat/ snuff out / dismember. Possibly cutting a Daze or Misstep.

Would also need to find room in the board for a 2nd Lllawan for an SCG open / Providence.

Edit #2 5/26 : with the meta being so control oriented I have put Jace in the main, and cut a stifle. I still want it to protect my own lands so I did not cut them all together. Thinking about cutting a snuff out for a pulse to deal with all the jaces right now. would also like to find room in the board for Null Rod for MUD/Affinity/Painted Stone/ Thopter Decks.

[Professor Awesome]

My build is very similar to yours, and I share your problems fitting in everything now that MM is printed. I went to 3 stifle, but I'm not happy about it. That's essentially the whole problem. You end up having to make a decision like:

Which of the following do you not want to run 4-of main?
Hymn to Tourach
Daze
Ponder
Mental Misstep
Stifle
Targeted Removal

Answer: Ideally, they are all 4-ofs :(

Here's where I go on a rant about MM, and why it should be a 4-of main.

The issue for me with Mental Misstep in Team America is a philosophical one. I can't think of a deck that it fits in more perfectly strategy-wise. The whole goal of Team America is keeping the game state on turns 1 and 2 as long as possible, especially for the opponent. I can't say 'no other deck', but maybe I'm alright to say that few other decks are hurt on such a strategic level when they lose the die roll. Nearly our entire strategy breaks down. Daze and Stifle turn off on the most crucial turn - the first. Vial sneaks in there, a fetchland actually gets them a land, noble hierarch hits play, the surprisingly relevant cursecatcher lands, lackey / nacatl / welder must be snuffed out, etc. Almost all of these terrible situations share a common thread: they cost 1.

Mental Misstep is like dice rolling insurance. I agree with a poster earlier about MM doing completely different things than Daze, but not usually on T1. This early they're both effectively a hard counter - and later on they branch out into equally useful avenues; MM for countering Swords / lategame ponders / etc, and Daze for punishing the greedy / slowing them down by playing around it / winning FoW wars.

[GtF]

Agree that this deck benefits a lot from mental misstep. as for what to cut in the SB, I think you could cut one of the graveyard hate cards if you were taking it to a grand prix. I think TA is naturally strong against most graveyard strategies anyway, especially with misstep around to counter their putrid imp or careful study or aether vial. Probably a nihil spellbomb.

[TheShaun]

The big problem I'm having right now is coming up with an exact counterspell package. Realistically most TA decks will run 8-12 counterspells, consisting of:

Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Daze
Mental Misstep

4 FoW is the only one that is pretty much a given, coming up with the other 4-8 slots is the rough part. My current train of thought is that I like to tap out turns 1-3, playing:

1: Stifle, Ponder, Brainstorm, Targeted discard
2: Goyf, Confidant (if you roll that way), Hymn
3: Terravore, Tombstalker

The most important cards to counter happen turns 1-4, so to me, using counters that require mana will require me to make a choice of tapping out to play my stuff, or holding back to counter. For this reason, I intend to playtest initially with all "free" counters, though not sure yet exactly the numbers of each. I'm thinking right now 4 FoW, 4 MM, 2-3 Daze. This allows you to still tap out for the first 3-4 turns and apply massive pressure, but still have something to stop any bombs they have for you. On top of that, there's nothing worse than making the decision to hold off turn 1 discard while holding some sort of conditional countermagic, only to discover that what they play on their turn can't be targetted with the counter you have in hand. You're basically giving them a free turn this way.

[Parax]

//Creatures: 11 (11)
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
2 Terra
2 Kira

//Land 21 (32)

//Disruption 21(53)
4 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze/Mental Misstep
3 Stifle
4 Go for the Throat

//Draw 7 (60)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

This is a list that i just came up with while talking with a friend. Kira basically allows you to keep counters that would normally counter removal. A threat and tempo creator. I'm pretty sure this is far from optimal, and i could easily see:

-3 Terravore
+3 MM/Daze Opposite what i end up playing.

And just running 9 Threats. I'm not sure how much i like this list, as the previous list i was tinkering with was playing Bob.

[Zamussels]

Just won myself 3 byes for Providence with this deck. Here's the list I was running:

Creatures -9
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Tombstalker

Spells -28
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Mental Misstep
2x Daze
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Go for the Throat
4x Force of Will

Artifacts -2
2x Engineered Explosives

Lands -21
4x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
2x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard -15
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Consuming Vapors
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Darkblast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Duress
1x Perish

I beat Merfolk, Mono-G, Grixis Control and Mono-Red Goblins to go 4-0-2, then beat Goblins with black splash in top 8. Really liked the addition of Mental Missteps and didn't have to side them out once during the day, though there was a Chalice Aggro deck in the top 8 I wouldn't have needed them against. Didn't miss the Dazes, Library and extra removal I cut. I added a Clique to my list and really liked having a 9th threat. I almost lost a game to goblins again where I couldn't draw a single creature in 20-25 cards, which seems to happen every tournament but I don't want to get flooded in creatures either. Thought the sideboard was very solid as well. I'll probably run something nearly identical in Providence unless there's substantial evidence that this deck isn't good anymore.

[Goddik]

Thought i would share my experience with this most awesome of decks.

Ran the following list to a 7-2 finish at Bazaar of Moxen with a loss to Landstill (the eventual winner) and dredge.

Creatures
4xTarmogoyf
4xTombstalker

Counters
4xForce
4xMisstep
3xDaze

Disruption
4xStifle
4xHymn To Tourach

Draw
4xPonder
4xBrainstorm
1xLoam

Removal
2xGo for the Throat
2xSnuff Out

Lands
4xUnderground Sea
2xTropical Island
1xBayou
9xFetch
4xWasteland

Sideboard
2xGhastly Demise
1xGo For the Throat
1xPulse
2xJace
2xSower
1xLife from the Loam
2xPernicious Deeds.
2xSpell Pierce
2xMassacre

The sideboard is the beauty of the list letting you transform into a board control deck against midrange and aggro strategies where you tempo mainboard is quite terrible, particularly when they board into spot removal. The hymns let you transform quite nicely. The massacres were a concession to the tons of GW we saw at the trial the day before and should probably just have been the gravyard hate we used to have.

It is quite noticeable that Team America definately has the potential to play control in many matchups if you play it conservatively and board accordingly.

On a more general note sower and life from the loam where awesome all day with the loam acting in the predict slot as a value card with occaisional blowout potential. I would definately run it again, the card gives so much value for so little space in the list.

[Zamussels]

@Goddik

Are you really running no removal main deck? And 24 lands?

My strategy was also to board control after SB against merfolk and goblins and it worked quite well. I need to test more to see if I wasn't just lucky though. I don't run Jace and Sower in the board as with only 21 lands and a lot of decks packing Wasteland it's hard to get to 4 mana unless you're already winning or flooded and in those cases Jace won't help that much.

[deadlock]

Not a serious post, but I would love to see someone pull out some wins with a orginal list (the 1st incarnation) - 4 Thoughtseize +4 Mental Misstep. 16 free spell sounds like a lot of fun^^

[P-AiR]

New Team America player here. I've read the first page primer but still am looking for some answers to questions that have sprung to mind. What's the history of the deck? Why is it called Team America? It feels good to be playing one of the more expensive decks if not the most expensive deck in Legacy (besides the hilarious yet surprising result for the lone Battle of the Wits deck).

I've converted my old WUG Threshold - mongoose, werebear, etc (I know it's ancient) into TA. Is there anything I should be looking out for when playing this deck? Do you have any sideboarding tips or general playing tips vs. certain matchups? What do you side in/side out against aggro/control/combo? I do admit, I haven't read all 65 pages of this thread but do plan on getting around to it soon!

For my first version of TA, I've tailored my deck to Zamussels' decklist above as I do not have any spare Jaces for this deck. And do agree on the distribution of lands, creatures, threats, draw, and counters. However, I may turn that Vendilion clique into a Kira or Phrexyian Dreadnaught depending on my meta. And 2 removal spells main seems a bit dangerous but SB does make up for it.

Any comments or guidelines would be much appreciated!

[Zamussels]

@P-AiR

Most of the answers you are looking for are somewhere in this thread so I'm sure you'll find them. Start reading backwards from here and stop when you get to the Survival of the Fittest metagame. Not sure Kira is a good choice to replace Clique since you have Misstep to protect from Swords, and what else is gonna target and kill your guys? Dreadnought and Stifle can be countered by Misstep, setting you up for a blowout and I think I would only run a lone Dreadnought in a Trinket Mage package, which I've actually considered for this deck but apparently no one else did, or it's a really bad idea (see a few posts or pages previous).

I consider that I have 4 removal spells as I include Engineered Explosives. I used to run 2 Snuff Out maindeck but have cut them for Misstep. They were mainly there against Lackey and other problematic early guys anyway.

I could post what my sideboard plan is, but it is largely dependent on specific builds I play against and the playstyle of the opponent. For example, if he is horrible and keeps using fetchlands on his turn when I have mana untapped even if he isn't about to cast anything, I am more likely to keep Stifle in even if there aren't many other juicy targets. Also I haven't tested enough with the deck to tell if my plans are actually optimal or close to it, even if they have been working very well so far.

[Goddik]

@Zamussel

of course not ;) I am just tired, the list has been edited now with the lacking 4 removals

As for how to play the deck, my big breakthroug was when i started to stall playing my creatures. You are a tempo-control deck, not an agressive deck like the original sinkhole builds and old-school canadian.

Against opponents with spot removal and no/little preassure i generally wait to play my creatures untill i have hymned/stifled/wasted/drawn misstep to avoid getting blown out by swords to plowshares, i even go so far as to brainstorm them away for reactive gas and certainly board some ammount of creatures out in many matchups were people board in stuff like submerges and paths.

Committing a tombstalker to the board only to see it submerged really sucks, it is generally better to hymn him a few times first.

[Jeff]

I'm relatively new to TA, played it in 3 or 4 GPTs to this point, and I'm taking it to Providence. The first several events I played in were 4 Goyf/4Stalker lists, and this past wednesday (playing in an event that didn't matter right before misstep came out) I gave 4Bob/4Goyf/2Stalkers a try and loved it, although the Stalkers were terrifying, and I did end up losing 8 life to one, although I still won that game.

That said, Does anyone have thoughts on Chris VanMeter's list that won the open yesterday? 4 Confidants AND 4 Tombstalkers seems . . . . scary. Every upkeep is an adventure. I know a lot of people insist Bob has no place in the deck, and I'm not here to say whether they're right or wrong, I'm just interested in thoughts on it.

I had good luck playing the original style list with no Bobs, UNTIL I came up against the mirror when that person had Bob and I couldn't counter it. Playing the tempo game, this deck just loses to confidant active for a few turns (unless I'm just bad at Magic, which is possible)

So . . . tl;dr version: What do people think about 4 Stalkers and 4 Confidants, and if you don't think Confidant is worth it, how are you dealing with the mirror vs Bob?

J

[Zamussels]

I'm surprised at how little discussion there is on this thread in general and about the *3* Team America inspired decks in the top 8 of SCG yesterday, especially since all 3 of them have interesting particularities I'm almost wondering if a lot of regulars are planning on playing this at Providence and are keeping their testing a secret.

I was wondering if Chris Van Meter's deck had a transcription error since it had 62 cards and 4 Confidant and 4 Stalkers seemed a lot. It has been corrected to 4 Confidant, 4 Goyf, 2 Stalker. The deck still seems high risk to me with 4 Force of Will and 2 Jace as other high CC cards. Also he's not even running Ponder which can help stack the deck for Bob. He is running a singleton Library though...

Jacobson has also cut some Ponders in favor of more discard (2 Thoughtseize and 1 Inquisition), which seems like a lot of life loss in addition to Confidant, fetchlands and Mental Misstep. I always feel like I'm taking a lot of damage with my deck with fetches, Snuff Out and Force of Will, and now with Misstep. Another interesting choice is 2 Deed maindeck (he has 1 Explosives in the board).

Flores is running a more traditional build and more similar to mine (no Confidant). I admit I bumped the Deed count in my SB to 3 after seeing his build, and noticed a lot of Deeds in the top decks at the previous SCG open. He cut the Stifles entirely, which is quite interesting and I'm not sure I agree with that. He has 1 maindeck Darkblast which I've considered, and is also still running Snuff Out, which didn't seem necessary to me with Mental Misstep and Go for the Throat to get rid of early guys. He also has 3 Revoker in the SB, probably mostly for Jace. It's as if he knew that Jace decks were going to be popular at this event!

As for my deck, I think I'll cut the Diabolic Edict and one other card, probably Pulse, for 2 Revokers.

@Jeff: I don't know if Confidant is worth it, but it certainly changes the dynamic of the deck a lot, and I don't want to throw them into a well-tuned deck without testing what other changes I need to incorporate them so I don't play them. Go for the Throat, Explosives, and Darkblast after sideboarding all get rid of him.

[Dr.Jones]

His version run 2 tombstalkers and not 4 in addition to 4 goyf and 4 bob.

With confidants and 22 lands 3rd Jace should be better suited here than sylvan.

[Jeff]

OK, that makes more sense. I missed the typo and thought he actually had 4 stalkers. 2 seems OK. When I ran 2 last week I was terrified of flipping them, but they were really, really good in play, in a way VClique or Terravore just can't be.

I'm still testing, but so far I think I'm in agreement with nightwolf on this one, Jace just isn't that good against combo or the aggro decks in the format, and he doesn't seem that great against Merfolk, so why do I want him maindeck? I'd rather have the 2 Jaces in the board and bring them in for the attrition matchups. Of course, he was doing that with 4 stalkers in the deck and no Bobs, but the principals might be the same. I'm just a little to green here to figure it out for sure. I really do feel like I'm going to win every game I play Bob turn 2 though, which isn't something any other card in the deck can do.


@Jeff: I don't know if Confidant is worth it, but it certainly changes the dynamic of the deck a lot, and I don't want to throw them into a well-tuned deck without testing what other changes I need to incorporate them so I don't play them. Go for the Throat, Explosives, and Darkblast after sideboarding all get rid of him.

True, but EE on 2 means I better not have goyfs or libraries out before I do it, and do I really want to bring in Darkblast when it only kills 4 cards in their entire deck (6 if they run Clique)? I really need my removal to kill Bob AND goyf, so it basically ends up being Dismember (some of the time), Pulse (which is bad tempo, using a 3 mana sorcery to kill their 2 drops), or GftT (which I like a lot, but depending on the popularity of the metalworker deck I don't know that I can overdo it)

All that said, I agree with you, but finding the right mix of removal in this deck for a given meta is really hard.

J

[Zamussels]

@Jeff: Anecdotal evidence but it does illustrate how good Darkblast is in the mirror match. My opponent is beating me in the air with Tombstalker while the ground is Goyfstalled. He's at something like 2-3 life, having drawn a few cards with Library. I draw Darkblast, attack with Goyf and kill his. Next turn dredge it and kill his Tombstalker. I love Darkblast so much I side it in even if they don't have Bob. (Yes it's true that GftT would have done the job just as well in this situation, or even Submerge but it was still awesome).

[Jeff]

Good call. I always forget Darkblast trumps goyfstalls

[Goddik]

Confidant lists are definately a different beast from the traditional Team America lists. I am not quite confortable with the fact that he requires you to commit to the board so early and does so little when you are behind. That being said he is clearly quite powerfull and the deck has put up results.


If you want to play the more controlling team America i think you are better off playing the landstill deck Frauenschläger played at BOM with a 4 bop, 4 goyf sideboard. It seems to do most of what those lists do, just better.

On the darkblast note, you guys should look into loam and sower as sideboard cards, they are both insane in many matchups and were all stars throughout the tournament.

[nesys]

Hi folks,
I'm relatively new to TA, there is a good strategy vs blood moon effects, or just a force of will? Blood moon or magus on first turn imho is a bye ... isn't it?

Thanks for your support
Andrea

[TheShaun]

Hi folks,
I'm relatively new to TA, there is a good strategy vs blood moon effects, or just a force of will? Blood moon or magus on first turn imho is a bye ... isn't it?

Thanks for your support
Andrea

The only way is to counter it or add basic lands. Basic lands make you worse against pretty much every single other deck, so if you know you're playing against dragon stompy, I'd definitely mull into FoW, or discard/daze if on the play.

[GtF]

What exactly is loam doing for you in this deck? Why would you want it?
Sower I can understand as a removal spell, though I think it is still too slow and vulnerable for that purpose.

[ludollu]

What exactly is loam doing for you in this deck? Why would you want it?

Loam is probably used for : food Tombstalker, CA with Brainstorm and recursive wasteland.

I want to play this deck (I'm a vintage player which want to start legacy) and I have a question : how good is Hymn to Tourach ? Spell Snare / Spell Pierce or spot removal could be better in this slot ? Or Tourach is too valuable ?

I have another question : how to deal with a Leyline of the Void ?

[Goddik]

Hymn is insane, it wins you games all by itself, alot of the games are attrition based.

Loam is good with the sideboard package, i want to be boarding in sowers, jaces and deeds which means i need more lands post board. It also provides sick value in alot of different ways, from getting lands to brainstorm away, to dredging away crap on top of your library, wastelocking, fighting other peoples wastelands, making it easy to cast multiple stalkers. It does alot of stuff and i very rarely boarded my singleton out. It is quite subtle, try playing it and you will see what i mean. It is the same slot that used to be predict as a way to win long games.

With regards to blood moon: those decks are typically pretty bad so if you mull a bit agressively they fold to the disruption package. Starting to add basics is asking to lose in all other matchups, the deck really needs BB and UG off of 2 lands.

[colo]

I have another question : how to deal with a Leyline of the Void ?

There really isn't much you can do if you don't expect it. Just ignoring it worked out OK for me whenever I faced it, even though not having access to your Tombstalker airforce really, really sucks. 2/3 or 3/4 Tarmogoyfs get there enventually, however (the only deck that brought Leylines in against me was Dream Halls Combo, so that statement may be false for more aggressive decks). Other than that: Maelstrom Pulse/Krosan Grip.

[Jeff]

That's one of the reasons I really like Pulse right now in the deck, is it gives you an out to some random card like Leyline. Plus, with the U/w Landstill deck whose only win condition is Jace running around, having a card that kills Jace without attacking and can't be countered by Misstep or Spell Snare seems good.

Has anyone had any success with Threads of Disloyalty? It seems pretty decent to me, a removal spell that can be pitched to Force . . . . pretty good.

J

[ludollu]

Team America - Louis Deltour (BOM5 semi-finalist)
http://www.youtube.com/user/watchdamatch#p/c/14523458139936A8/2/v1AHwfnu7Q4


Mainboard:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Go for the Throat
1 Pernicious Deed
//20

4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//12

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore
//6

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
//22


Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//15


First impression : 4 Confidant + 4 Force+ 4 Misstep + 3 Thoughtseize + 8 fetch ... ouch ...

Also, 4 Hymn (2B) + 2 Jace (2U) + 2 Terravore (2G) may cause some color death.

Otherwise, transform the deck into a heavy control (with the side) seems to be a good idea.

[Goddik]

I think the basics in the list above are exceptionally greedy, beyond that i like the many deeds. We strongly considered threads, the problem is that it doesn't steal the creature you really care about; Knight of the reliquary. Many green lists are cutting goyfs to make room for zeniths. Hence why we ended up playing sowers instead of the otherwise superior threads.

If they do board leylines in against you that is probably good for you. You now both have 4 dead cards, but you have 4 brainstorm 4 ponder, so you have an easier time getting rid of yours while they have to commit them to the board.

Against landstill the big problem is standstill itself, it is probably lights out if it resolves, though i haven't tested it enough to say for certain.